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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: Sharky on July 07, 2011, 01:45:59 am

Title: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 07, 2011, 01:45:59 am
The first humans on earth right? Adam was made from dirt and Eve from his rib, God was like 'nice one, no go forth and populate the earth!'

Then they had two sons, Cane and Abel...

*slowly raises hand*
I have a question: HOW NOW BROWN COW?!
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 07, 2011, 04:15:22 am
The first humans on earth right? Adam was made from dirt and Eve from his rib, God was like 'nice one, no go forth and populate the earth!'

Then they had two sons, Cane and Abel...

*slowly raises hand*
I have a question: HOW NOW BROWN COW?!

What are you trying to get at here? I'm pretty sure most rational people (Including religious ones) see Adam and Eve as a parable rather than hard facts...

Also, why did you post this in General Gaming? Poor form Sharky, poor form.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Aki-at on July 07, 2011, 05:14:35 am
The first humans on earth right? Adam was made from dirt and Eve from his rib, God was like 'nice one, no go forth and populate the earth!'

Then they had two sons, Cane and Abel...

*slowly raises hand*
I have a question: HOW NOW BROWN COW?!


Yeah I have to agree, Cane and Abel were really tough boss fights, but it was really awesome too with how they fire at you from either side of the mountains.

Though remember, you've got to kill Cane first if you want the good ending, only Abel is able to give you the cow that will allow get you the key that will let you enter the Beast's domain.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 07, 2011, 05:19:52 am
Logic and bible stories don't go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 07, 2011, 05:20:30 am
Cane and Abel were tough, sure, but my favourite boss from Super Adam and Eve was the Snake boss. Dude was crazy. Not to mention that you had no healing items during that fight because his apples would cause God to cast you out instantly.

I did think it was a bit forced to make you go through all that, and then *SPOILERS* in the cutscene, Eve eats the apple anyway.... -_-;
*END SPOILERS*

Did anyone get that '7 Days of Creation' expansion pack? It's meant to be a prequel story or something I think.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 07, 2011, 06:17:16 am
I met a priest once who justified sexism by stating 'God made me first'.

Funny chap!

In reality every foetus starts as female, then some develop into males afterwards.

Also incest is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sega Uranus on July 07, 2011, 10:23:10 am
Six posts in and still no mention of the talking snake? I am disappointed in you all. He was an asshole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T0I5UepXMA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T0I5UepXMA#)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 07, 2011, 11:35:36 am
I prefer Adam and Steve.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: CosmicCastaway on July 07, 2011, 12:59:53 pm
Well, there are theories among the Christian community that after Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden that several tribes of people came into existence. Cain is said to have had a wife so it would likely be from one of these tribes.
Another theory is that human genetics were much purer back then so Adam and Eve could've had a daughter and Cain hooked up with her. It's inbreeding but it supposedly wouldn't be as harmful as it is now.
Those are just the two Christian explanations I know of.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 07, 2011, 03:18:26 pm
Most of the stuff in the bible was added later for it to make more sense.

Stuff in the bible and Christian 'facts' have been disproved throughout history that I'm surprise that its still believed by most Americans. I don't mind them believing in religion, go for it. But when you sit there and say evolution is false and that the earth was made 4,000 years ago... now that is just false.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 08, 2011, 06:09:23 am
I prefer Adam and Steve.
Poof.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 09, 2011, 02:52:37 am
Yeah I have to agree, Cane and Abel were really tough boss fights, but it was really awesome too with how they fire at you from either side of the mountains.

Though remember, you've got to kill Cane first if you want the good ending, only Abel is able to give you the cow that will allow get you the key that will let you enter the Beast's domain.

It is written as fact in the bible... As is Noah and the Arc.
You'd think the guy that wrote the bible would have seen the flaws here... two sons? really?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 09, 2011, 05:39:32 am
Noah and the Arc story makes the least of sense. He grabbed all animals, a pair and put them in his arc? Did you fucking know there are over 300,000 species of beetles in the world? So this man took his time to get 2 of each of the 300,000 beetles?

The only other explanation is that he only got a few and they evolved over time, but Christians say evolution is a stupid concept. 
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 09, 2011, 07:18:09 am
Guy who wrote the bible? It is a collection of books by various people, hence why you mention their names when quoting it (John, Paul, et cetera). They even contradict each other as they never wrote them together. It was written long after Jesus was dead, which makes it extra lolol. Most of it is just based on Judaism mixed with what some nuts wrote later. The whole concept of an 'organised Church and Bible' have nothing to do with Jesus, and all of the folk stories are Jewish because the writers were Jewish.

As a note, Jews do not even consider Jesus to be Jewish as his father was a Roman (Orthodox Jews recorded it and consider Mary to be a whore for fornicating with him; most likely a Gaulish conscript as were most 'Romans' in the Levant/Israel at the time). Christians tend to get stubborn and pretend Jesus' father was 'God', but we all know that is not going to work... Mary was in no way a virgin. It is purposely set up like this to avoid logic, just like everything else you read in it. Furthermore, if you look at Jesus' execution, he was executed by Romans courts - not Jewish courts, the latter of which were for Jews. Sephardic Jews (Jews of Israel at the time), if anyone is unaware, only consider the father to be able to produce Jewish offspring (David was the first Jew, a man), therefore even if Mary was Jewish, they did not consider Jesus as such (likely nor did he) - in their view he was Roman (and a disliked colonialist, as Israel at the time was a Roman colony).


And sorry for the mini-rant here, but I just wanted to point out why Christians believe these strange folk stories and how everything is based upon poorly-made lies. If you want the true origin or interpretation of these stories, I would suggest looking up formal Jewish views on them (ie: asking the question of whether Jews consider the Noah's Ark story to be true, or just a moralistic story). Asking a Christian is not going to get you anywhere (DURRR ITS TRUE CAUSE FISH FOSSILS IN MOUNTAINS DURRR).
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 09, 2011, 09:26:57 am
There was a pretty awesome Indiana Jones novel where he discovers Noah's ark on top a frozen mountain. Indiana Jones and the Genesis Deluge. The thing broke free and they rode it down a mountainside. Better read than the bible story in my opinion.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on July 09, 2011, 03:12:16 pm
Six posts in and still no mention of the talking snake? I am disappointed in you all. He was an asshole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T0I5UepXMA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T0I5UepXMA#)

I prefer Adam and Steve.

We have our winners! *hands Sanus and Barry free cookies*
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 09, 2011, 06:40:40 pm
Asking a Christian is not going to get you anywhere (DURRR ITS TRUE CAUSE FISH FOSSILS IN MOUNTAINS DURRR).

That's a pretty big generalisation to make, fundamentalists might have that attitude, but not all Christians. You might as well say 'All muslims are terrorists'.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 09, 2011, 08:02:17 pm
I guess, let me rephrase that. Every Christian I know thinks the theory of evolution doesn't make sense, yet God making us out of dirt does.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 11, 2011, 12:19:19 am
Guy who wrote the bible? It is a collection of books by various people, hence why you mention their names when quoting it (John, Paul, et cetera). They even contradict each other as they never wrote them together. It was written long after Jesus was dead, which makes it extra lolol. Most of it is just based on Judaism mixed with what some nuts wrote later. The whole concept of an 'organised Church and Bible' have nothing to do with Jesus, and all of the folk stories are Jewish because the writers were Jewish.

Oh I know, what I find even more interesting is that the included scriptures were just a few of MANY that were left out. At the time it was compiled the monks who did so basically went through picking and choosing what they liked the sound of.

I wouldn't mind seeing what the others said.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 11, 2011, 02:34:14 am
Oh I know, what I find even more interesting is that the included scriptures were just a few of MANY that were left out. At the time it was compiled the monks who did so basically went through picking and choosing what they liked the sound of.

I wouldn't mind seeing what the others said.
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Books-Bible-William-Hone/dp/0517277956
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on July 11, 2011, 06:28:15 am
I guess, let me rephrase that. Every Christian I know thinks the theory of evolution doesn't make sense, yet God making us out of dirt does.

Well to be fair I mean, even some leading scientific theories, namely M theory, state we were made out of nothing pretty much. Something from nothing is theoretically possible in Quantum mechanics.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 11, 2011, 04:58:51 pm
"WHAT? WE CAME FROM NOTHING!? God made us, you should know that. i thought you where raised better."
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on July 11, 2011, 09:39:18 pm
There's room to speculate that the Big Bang was caused by a deity of some kind.......but it's just silly to deny the scientific facts behind Earth's creation. There's far too much evidence to support the likes of evolution for it to be denied, imo.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 12, 2011, 12:39:41 am
There is definitely room to speculate on intelligent design; in fact I would say anyone that has already made up their mind on what happened in the beginning is jumping the gun big time. There are a lot of interesting theories out there and we’re only just scratching the surface of it all, like quantum mechanics.

My problem is with religion... The world would be a better place with out it imo. Because if there is some kind of 'god' out there nothing written in the bible or the Qur'an or any other holy text has anything to do with it.

These religious books are just outdated rules, lies and hateful bullshit written by savages. Since those books were compiled how much killing has happened directly because of the text written in them? Including the Crusades, Jihads, Holocaust, Terrorists, Witch hunts and everything in between.

What kind of god is that?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on July 12, 2011, 02:46:37 am
^Though at the same time, war would still be fought without religion. Humanity as a species will always wage war upon itself, and will always find ways to do it. Even if there is no religion.

Al Qaida warps religious teachings  to convince their followers that what they are doing (trying to destroy Western civilization) is justifiable. Because religion is something of passion to many people. Are people too passionate about religion? Probably. But religion is only one piece of the puzzle. Fresh water on this planet is going to in the coming years become more valuable than maybe even oil, if this keeps up. We are using more freshwater than the planet is capable of replenishing, and water shortages are already happening. The Israel/Palestinian conflict and many other territorial wars in the Middle East and other dry areas would *seem* to be all about religion, but in reality, fresh water and control of those water sources is also a big part of it. A huge part of it, in fact. Portrayed as a lesser part of it, because it's harder to work your people into a passionate mood over something like water versus religion, which is a much more personal subject.

It's the same with anything....Invading Iraq to wipe out "a dictator who mistreats and kills his own people and possesses weapons of mass destruction" is much more convincing to the American public than "look, without oil, our country and the rest of the free world will die, it's that simple. We can not exist without it. Saddam Hussein is sitting on top of oil and he can at any time cut off a large supply of oil to the free world, he needs to be gotten rid of."

It's not as powerful. France going into Libya and demanding the rest of the world do the same thing is ....well, they get a pretty big piece of their their oil supply from Libya. That dictator ruling the nation was unstable, and this could in the future affect France's ability to get this oil. Their main concern was not simply for the lives of the oppressed people of the country, which they said it was, but mostly their oil supply. But what's more convincing to the world? Bringing emotional weight into it. (Which is actually pretty hilarious because they yelled at us for doing the same thing by going into Iraq, and refused to help, when, then, years later, they demand our help to go into Libya for the exact same reasons. But that's another topic.)


People will always find ways to use "emotion" to manipulate others. Emotion's both the strength and weakness of humans. Religion is a source of passion and emotion for many people, and so it's constantly used to justify conflict.

Simply put, though, there are many reasons as to why people fight. Religion is just one reason.

(and yeah I'm aware I got awfully deep there.  :P )
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on July 12, 2011, 03:30:27 am
There is definitely room to speculate on intelligent design; in fact I would say anyone that has already made up their mind on what happened in the beginning is jumping the gun big time. There are a lot of interesting theories out there and we’re only just scratching the surface of it all, like quantum mechanics.

My problem is with religion... The world would be a better place with out it imo. Because if there is some kind of 'god' out there nothing written in the bible or the Qur'an or any other holy text has anything to do with it.

These religious books are just outdated rules, lies and hateful bullshit written by savages. Since those books were compiled how much killing has happened directly because of the text written in them? Including the Crusades, Jihads, Holocaust, Terrorists, Witch hunts and everything in between.

What kind of god is that?


On the bright side War over religion is Darwinism is it not? I mean it weeds out the people stupid enough to fight over it? I agree it effects other people outside of those warring over it, but for the most part it mainly effects those groups. Furthermore, this might be a unpopular position, but it is true; War is necessary, anything that limits human population is, as to fight overpopulation, correct? I'd rather we have war than continue to reproduce at a rate that is too high and all starve, and even then, war cannot keep up with the pace of reproduction.

So we'll either need to head for WW 3, where I can be a draft dodger and go hide in a cave somewhere in the mountains (going back to Darwinism), or need to figure out an alternative.

While I agree that we shouldn't say what happened definitively that created our universe, planet, or species, I don't think Quantum Mechanics should be equated to books written by primitive desert dwellers eons ago. The scientific community vs. people we don't actually know who wrote these stories, one is unarguably more credible than the other.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 12, 2011, 04:45:12 am
Religion is not the only reason people fight wars, I don't think that is what Sharky mean't. It is a big reason that is easily avoidable if people didn't believe in it. Resources is another thing we fight for, but at least this makes sense.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 12, 2011, 05:00:09 am
I'm not saying religion is the biggest reason for war, or has killed more people than other reasons... I'm saying the fact that it simply is a reason for war, murder, killing of innocents is enough reason for me to say it's probably some of the most evil shit ever written.

I agree human culling is needed; war is effective but not necessary... A regulation of birth and death could be done with out a mass culling, see Chinas one child law... It's not a great solution by any means but it's one without war. But religious text doesn’t just cause war... What about Africans hacking up children with machetes because they believe they’re witches… Or terrorist attacks on civilians.

The bible insights so much violence and intolerance of others it’s crazy people still defend it! All this ‘bring them to the gates of your city and stone them to death’ ‘take woman as slaves if they are virgins, kill the rest.’ ‘Dash infants against the rocks’. Even god’s going to smite the non believers and send them to hell. What kind of loving god would insight this kind of bullshit? I’ll tell you, one made up by man, to control people…

The main reason people still believe in this god is because they take comfort in the notion that when they die it isn't all over; they go to a nice place where everyone is happy for eternity. I agree that would be lovely... I understand why people want to believe this, my grandmother believed this and I would never have argued with her and told her otherwise, I would pray at the table with her when she asked. I would like to believe this too, but I don't claim to know what happens when we die but I sure as hell don't believe there’s a single clue written in the bible or any other religious text.

Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on July 12, 2011, 10:11:27 am
Mankind are so stupid when it comes to religion that someone could base one on Sonic The hedgehog and it'll be worshipped by millions of people a thousand years from now. 
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 12, 2011, 10:18:17 am
Mankind are so stupid when it comes to religion that someone could base one on Sonic The hedgehog and it'll be worshipped by millions of people a thousand years from now. 

In the name of the Eggman, the Sonic and the Hyper Knuckles. Amen. Now let us enter the special stage and go in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_oUfB6-JF4
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on July 12, 2011, 12:47:31 pm
Religion is not the only reason people fight wars, I don't think that is what Sharky mean't. 

I didn't necessarily mean that Sharky in particular was implying that but that happens to be a point of view taken by a lot of people: "if you remove religion, you wouldn't have war." (Or at least much less war.) I just don't agree with this at all and think it's a WAY over-simplified and over-optimistic view of humanity.

Quote
It is a big reason that is easily avoidable if people didn't believe in it. Resources is another thing we fight for, but at least this makes sense.

It is a big reason but without it people would simply look for another reason. People who desire to fight a war will look for any reason necessary to convince their population to march for war.

Quote
I'd rather we have war than continue to reproduce at a rate that is too high and all starve, and even then, war cannot keep up with the pace of reproduction.

So we'll either need to head for WW 3, where I can be a draft dodger and go hide in a cave somewhere in the mountains (going back to Darwinism), or need to figure out an alternative.

War itself is not effectively going to stop over-population. Lots of people die in war but not enough to make that sort of difference and wars on that scale are incredibly rare.

Quote
I'm not saying religion is the biggest reason for war, or has killed more people than other reasons... I'm saying the fact that it simply is a reason for war, murder, killing of innocents is enough reason for me to say it's probably some of the most evil shit ever written.

I agree human culling is needed; war is effective but not necessary... A regulation of birth and death could be done with out a mass culling, see Chinas one child law... It's not a great solution by any means but it's one without war. But religious text doesn’t just cause war... What about Africans hacking up children with machetes because they believe they’re witches… Or terrorist attacks on civilians.

The bible insights so much violence and intolerance of others it’s crazy people still defend it! All this ‘bring them to the gates of your city and stone them to death’ ‘take woman as slaves if they are virgins, kill the rest.’ ‘Dash infants against the rocks’. Even god’s going to smite the non believers and send them to hell. What kind of loving god would insight this kind of bullshit? I’ll tell you, one made up by man, to control people…

The main reason people still believe in this god is because they take comfort in the notion that when they die it isn't all over; they go to a nice place where everyone is happy for eternity. I agree that would be lovely... I understand why people want to believe this, my grandmother believed this and I would never have argued with her and told her otherwise, I would pray at the table with her when she asked. I would like to believe this too, but I don't claim to know what happens when we die but I sure as hell don't believe there’s a single clue written in the bible or any other religious text.

haha very well-written post.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 12, 2011, 03:08:48 pm
EDIT: You know what, I already had a post detailing my thoughts on all this, but I've tried to give logical arguments in the past, but it just gets ignored and the same 'religion causes wars!' tirade is posted again.

I'm just going to take my leave instead.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 12, 2011, 07:28:51 pm
Mademan, you are saying that Religions have not started wars? That was the only point Sharky made. That those wars are avoidable. Expanding religion isn't a necessity for humans. Like water, oil is.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on July 13, 2011, 03:21:29 am
Well, there are theories among the Christian community that after Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden that several tribes of people came into existence. Cain is said to have had a wife so it would likely be from one of these tribes.
Another theory is that human genetics were much purer back then so Adam and Eve could've had a daughter and Cain hooked up with her. It's inbreeding but it supposedly wouldn't be as harmful as it is now.
Those are just the two Christian explanations I know of.

I heard that too but let's face it, its all a bunch of nonsense made up by stoneage people. The bible has yet to explain why we have different variants of the same human race and i've heard different explainations from the mark of cain to some other bunch of crap.Or the fact that one of the disciples became a murderer after Jesus annoited him just before jesus went back to heaven or whatever it is.
And you know what? Why doesn't it mention the Easter Bunny and Father Christmas?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on July 13, 2011, 06:39:20 am
Edit: Forget about it.

Not worth my time and humor...
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Happy Cat on July 13, 2011, 01:43:01 pm
Topic locked. Getting a bit too heated in here. Let's calm down :)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 13, 2011, 04:48:02 pm
I unlocked it. People whined last time that Sharky should have made his own topic and now they are whining in his topic. If you want to discuss religion, discuss it. But don't throw a fit if someone disagrees with you.

New rule: no more one line insults from either sides. Discuss Religion and all that nonsense, but don't just come in and say "OMG, ENJOY GETTING ON YO KNEES AND EATING FLESH!!!"
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on July 15, 2011, 05:04:24 am
In the name of the Eggman, the Sonic and the Hyper Knuckles. Amen. Now let us enter the special stage and go in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_oUfB6-JF4
Well each religion needs a fallen "apostle". I guess MJ fits that bill.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Happy Cat on July 20, 2011, 05:29:26 pm
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/terror-alert-warns-insider-threat-infrastructure/story?id=14118119&page=2 (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/terror-alert-warns-insider-threat-infrastructure/story?id=14118119&page=2)

sharky is right
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 20, 2011, 07:29:31 pm
Man attacks Water Treatment plant and fails, said the words 'Al Qaeda', not actually in Al Qaeda, nothing happened, FREAK OUT - WORLD ENDING.

Protip: USA created Al Quida to destabilise the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, currently doing it again in Libya. It is not one of Allah's New Ventures.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 21, 2011, 05:44:03 am
Quote
It is not one of Allah's New Ventures.
Maybe not but how do you get the peons to fight, blow themselves up and such? Tell them it's gods will.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Happy Cat on July 21, 2011, 08:35:37 am
i was reading on neogaf that they are building the tallest world clock in Mecca (basically, their religious area) in order to change world time GMT to Mecca time.. lol. good luck with that

i also read on neogaf someone posted something about how they build tall towers to forcefully take over other countries, it's like written in the religion or something. I talked to a friend who lives in the UK and showed him that (hes had bad experiences with middle east people through his whole life) and he said that the tallest buildings in Europe/UK are buildings built are Mosques. Don't sound very peaceful to me. xD. I don't know enough about the religion to make a solid opinion and don't care to, but I just found that interesting and creepy at the same time.

He also told me that when UK was holding a funeral service for dead soldiers where families were crying, that a bunch of Allah supports came and crashed the party, holding up signs that say stuff like "British Soldiers burn in hell" and "baby killers"

Just doesn't sound like a very peaceful religion to me >_>

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4094/4911109849_87041c7657_b.jpg)

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7123/6548812894981548220.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5449352867_d70d294d99_b.jpg)

CGI Mock up

(http://www.emirates247.com/polopoly_fs/1.278504.1281692187!/image/3848826485.jpg)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 21, 2011, 01:53:57 pm
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2589cwl.jpg)

Ha ha ha. I thought this image was funny!
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 21, 2011, 02:44:31 pm
Maybe not but how do you get the peons to fight, blow themselves up and such? Tell them it's gods will.

My point was that it is America doing it, then using the 'terrorists' they created to scare their own citizens. It is so obvious they are using fear to control people's views to support war and authoritarianism. It can simply be dumbed down to a case of 'useful idiots'.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 21, 2011, 03:26:38 pm
i was reading on neogaf that they are building the tallest world clock in Mecca (basically, their religious area) in order to change world time GMT to Mecca time.. lol. good luck with that
'Their religious area' is a bit of an oversimplification. Non-Muslims are not even allowed to visit the city, yet these same inbred freaks freely walk around any other city in the world. Truly the lowest garbage of humanity. Keep that in mind the next time a Muslim calls you 'Islamophobic' or 'intolerant'.

And in case anyone thinks I am lying to insult people, check out this sign:

(http://www.drybonesproject.com/blog/MeccaSign01.jpg)

Also on a personal note: I actually do not care if they want a Muslim-only city. My problem is that the same people do not respect me if I ask for the same thing, or anyone else for that matter. Basically my view is that if someone gets their own exclusive settlement, then anyone else gets the same rights and you have to respect that. If not, then you do not deserve it yourselves.


About the GMT thing; they are not trying to change that, it makes no sense. It is actually perfectly normal to want to create your own time zone. If they made 'Mecca Mean Time' or whatever, your time zone would not suddenly change to conform with it. It literally has no effect on you at all.

Quote
i also read on neogaf someone posted something about how they build tall towers to forcefully take over other countries, it's like written in the religion or something. I talked to a friend who lives in the UK and showed him that (hes had bad experiences with middle east people through his whole life) and he said that the tallest buildings in Europe/UK are buildings built are Mosques. Don't sound very peaceful to me. xD. I don't know enough about the religion to make a solid opinion and don't care to, but I just found that interesting and creepy at the same time.

Those are minarets. Essentially they are call-towers used to notify people when religious services start - like a church bell tower. Basically the more they have, the more important the structure (1-4). Concerning height, it is the same function any other religious structure takes, which is to dominate the skyline as a symbolic dominance of society. Look up pictures of Christian Cathedrals to see the exact same thing (they dominant basically any city they are in).

And again to point out double standards, you are not allowed to have a Church or any other religious building in Saudi Arabia (home of Islam), yet they expect you to allow them to build Mosques next door. So keep that in mind too whenever a Muslim whines about intolerance.

Also like before I do not care if Muslims do this, but again I expect the same rights respected for others. I do not want a Mosque next to me just like they do not want a Church/et cetera next to them.

Quote
He also told me that when UK was holding a funeral service for dead soldiers where families were crying, that a bunch of Allah supports came and crashed the party, holding up signs that say stuff like "British Soldiers burn in hell" and "baby killers"
Basically they can be compared to the Westboro Baptist Chruch in America. On Remembrance Day they also enjoy burning poppies just to offend people. There is even a video on YouTube of them building a Mosque purposely on a cemetery, bulldozing people's graves and thinking it is funny.

For some reason they think they can get away with all these crimes just because the government lets them. I do not think they realise that the government is not going to be there forever to protect them; and the way they have offended people is so severe that it is certainly not going to end well.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 21, 2011, 04:49:26 pm
Kogen, don't be mocking other religions by calling their followers such hateful names. This is a warning. Keep it civilized.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 21, 2011, 04:55:41 pm
Truth hurts, eh?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 21, 2011, 05:01:45 pm
Quote from: Muhammad
… for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.

Would not want to hurt Muhammad's feelings. He is such a nice guy.

And maybe I should start my own religion about how to torture people I hate. All you have to do is write a book apparently, then you are immune to criticism.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sega Uranus on July 21, 2011, 05:22:18 pm
No one wants to read a book about a weird furry judging whole groups of people on what less than 5% of them think.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 21, 2011, 05:55:22 pm
They would rather read about a mass-murdering, paedophile instead, right?

I am fairly sure most people would agree they do not want to be boiled alive on an iron hook. Pretending it is not in the Quran changes nothing. Anyone who believes the filth written by The Freak Muhammad is human garbage.

And to further back this up, here is another quote of his:
Quote
Strike off the heads of the disbelievers and, after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.

'Disbeliever' means practically everyone who posted in this thread. You either convert, be slaves, or be killed - that is what being a Muslim means concerning how you treat others.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on July 21, 2011, 06:59:04 pm
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2589cwl.jpg)

Ha ha ha. I thought this image was funny!

I don't see what is so funny, you obviously need to read up on M theory as you don't understand the science that is going on behind it, and I am gonna guess the person who made that image doesn't either.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 21, 2011, 11:16:26 pm
It is obviously a joke, did you really take it seriously? Especially with me laughing at it.

Quote
'Disbeliever' means practically everyone who posted in this thread. You either convert, be slaves, or be killed - that is what being a Muslim means concerning how you treat others.
Yeah, it is kind of scary. But I have a couple Muslim friends and they are pretty nice to me. Heh
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 22, 2011, 07:51:49 pm
I love it when you guys whip yourselves into a shit-storm over nothing.

(http://drewminh.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)

EDIT: Come on Kogen, the new avatar is too much. Try to be more subtle. You were doing so well too, you even had Sharky agreeing with you for a bit it seems.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on July 22, 2011, 10:39:30 pm
I love it when you guys whip yourselves into a shit-storm over nothing.

It mainly seems like Waffle is the one getting hyper, everybody else has been ok, I think.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on July 23, 2011, 12:42:38 am
He also told me that when UK was holding a funeral service for dead soldiers where families were crying, that a bunch of Allah supports came and crashed the party, holding up signs that say stuff like "British Soldiers burn in hell" and "baby killers"

Ugh. Just what we need, another Westboro Baptist Church.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on July 24, 2011, 03:31:45 am
Quote
And again to point out double standards, you are not allowed to have a Church or any other religious building in Saudi Arabia (home of Islam), yet they expect you to allow them to build Mosques next door. So keep that in mind too whenever a Muslim whines about intolerance.

America is not Saudi Arabia.....America is a country that prides itself on being a free country and a country tolerant of different religious faiths. Saudi Arabia does not.

America is not Saudi Arabia, and be thankful for that.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 24, 2011, 10:43:03 am
Kogen, less is more... Learn to be subtle.

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2589cwl.jpg)

Ha ha ha. I thought this image was funny!

This would be funny, I suppose... If it said 'The Big Bang Theory' Atheism doesn't mean you subscribe to the Big Bang Theory, (Also the big bang theory isn't that there was 'nothing', so its kind of void anyway.)

Atheism simply means you don't believe there is a god that magically made everything, which is just as silly (imo) as that picture up there.

The fact is we simply don't know how it happened and that’s the beauty of science... trial and error, getting to the bottom of it all. Religion is the opposite, simply putting your trust in books written thousands of years ago by people that didn't know why the sun came up or what the stars were or that the world was round. They simply tried to make sense of the world around them with the very little knowledge they had.

Now we understand the sun, stars, round earth... etc we are moving on to try and understand the universe and how it was formed. There are plenty of good theories out there but they are all theories because we simply don't know for sure. A good scientist wont even completely rule out intelligent design however... The religions that people follow today I can safely say are can be proven false time and time again.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Emmett The Crab on July 24, 2011, 01:10:46 pm
I agree, that athiesm poster is idiotic.  First; whoever wrote that doesn't even have a basic knowledge of the big bang theory and second; they are confusing atheism with astrophysics.  It might as well say that Atheism is the belief that chimps gave birth to humans (in a medieval philosophy class, I actually heard a student ask someone if we all came from apes, how come apes aren't turning into people right now?  Like lycanthropy I guess).
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 24, 2011, 03:41:07 pm
Again, I don't think the creator of the image meant for it to be taken seriously. It could be a joke image or something, just found it off google.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on July 24, 2011, 06:25:28 pm
The fact is we simply don't know how it happened and that’s the beauty of science... trial and error, getting to the bottom of it all. Religion is the opposite, simply putting your trust in books written thousands of years ago by people that didn't know why the sun came up or what the stars were or that the world was round. They simply tried to make sense of the world around them with the very little knowledge they had.

Now we understand the sun, stars, round earth... etc we are moving on to try and understand the universe and how it was formed. There are plenty of good theories out there but they are all theories because we simply don't know for sure. A good scientist wont even completely rule out intelligent design however... The religions that people follow today I can safely say are can be proven false time and time again.

Exactly one reason why I'm agnostic.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 24, 2011, 06:36:53 pm
Again, I don't think the creator of the image meant for it to be taken seriously. It could be a joke image or something, just found it off google.

I wouldn't be all that shocked if the creator did mean it seriously, I've seen some pretty funny arguments for intelligent design/god.

I want to just point out that I've never ruled out intelligent design, I find it highly unlikely but in actual fact if I could choose how it all happened I'd like to believe in intelligent design... Even though I currently find it exceedingly unlikely, it would be a very nice surprise imo.

But as for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Seeks... etc... Well put it this way, If you believe in one of these gods you have already chosen to disbelieve in all of the other hundreds of religions out there that have come and gone since ancient times... You're basically an atheist in the eyes of everyone who doesn't subscribe to the same religion as you. (Which makes me only one religion more atheist than you!)

So why have you chosen this religion? Because of your surroundings! If you grew up in Saudi Arabia chances are you'd be Muslim, if you grew up in ancient Greece you'd believe in the Greek gods... India, many many gods... Norway in the Saxon era, Viking gods like Odin. It just so happens that you were born in America (presumably) in this time where the most prevalent religion is Christian. In 2000 years it'll be something else.

Some people need to believe in a god, because it gives them guidelines to live by or it comforts people to think they are being watched over and even helps people get over death of loved ones or themselves. If I felt someone needed it I would never ever question it, I would let them believe what ever they want. I'm just voicing my honest opinion of the matter, looking for discussion.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 24, 2011, 08:02:04 pm
Quote
In 2000 years it'll be something else.
I don't know, America has dozens of "Christ" references everywhere.

And what would take over Christianity? Christianity is quite strong and has been for over 1000 years. Muslim is close but not that close, and Atheism is quite low in the rankings. I do agree that all religions may fall a bit of percentage points, but I doubt they'll cease to be a majority.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 25, 2011, 05:53:26 am
I don't know, America has dozens of "Christ" references everywhere.

And what would take over Christianity? Christianity is quite strong and has been for over 1000 years. Muslim is close but not that close, and Atheism is quite low in the rankings. I do agree that all religions may fall a bit of percentage points, but I doubt they'll cease to be a majority.

I may be wrong but I'm quite sure that there are more Muslims in the world than there are Christians.

Also, at one time the Roman and Greek gods were 'quite strong' where are they now we have the cheak to call it 'mythology' as if there is more credibility for the current religions.

America will be slow to take up the concept of there not being a god because its so ingrained in every day life there... But in many European countries there is a higher number of athiests then anyone else, people are wising up. In Denmark for example 80% of the population don't believe in a god or follow a religion. Outside of Europe; Japan is the highest place of 'non-believers' at I believe around 60%.

This has shot up in the past 20 years, in a couple of hundred years I see Europe, Japan and probably some other places being pretty much religion free. 2000 years? Things will be massively different.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: CrazyT on July 25, 2011, 09:15:01 am
I converted to the islam not a long time ago. The religion just seemed very right and pure to me and made a lot of sense. When I have to judge by the quran alone I gotta say that it couldn't have come from anything but something holier, higher than human beings. Basically something or someone that knows as better than anyone in the world.

. The hate towards islam is understandable. Waffle for instance makes good points about not being permitted to build churches in Saudia for instance. Same about not being permitted to visit the place if you are not muslim. But he completely ignores the fact that, apart from those places, churches are built around muslim countries almost everywhere else.

Saudia Arabia is solely built in a way that you wouldn't even wanna be there if you're not muslim. It's not just a holy place for muslims. But theres literally nothing to be found other than religious stuff. I mean compare it to a friend group you wouldn't wanna hang out with in a major scale. It's no place of "tourism" allthough I would like to learn more about this as I do  think it'd be nice for people being able to see how dedicated they are. But then again, the place is holy so I reckon that they want to keep it clean from things muslims consider as non islamic and sinful.

Saudia Arabia is Also controlled by corrupted governmential douchebags. Theres alot of shit going on there that worries a lot of muslims. Most muslims go there just for mecca but other than that the country is ruled by an idiotic moron that doesn't care much about the people, moreso about money. From our perspective, the guy sold his soul to life. It's considered a sin if you value life too much, as it can bring the worst out of people.(greed, ego, arrogance)

Also about the muhamed(pbuh) statement waffle quoted. I never read it myself but then again, I haven't read the sunna(Book written by prophets followers about him). He probably said it, but you also have to realise that that is what we muslims  truly believe what's gonna happen with non believers. It may seem cruel and we humans don't judge you for being a non believer. But we muslims believe when someone gets the message (a clear explenation of the religion) and ignores it, chances are that he may not be forgiven. You're free to find it nonsense and nobody is going to judge you for it.

You know all in all, I still haven't required the knowledge I need to inform anyone about the religion much. But i'd like to share a youtube video that convinced my conversion to islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY#ws)

I hope you can give the video at least 10 minutes. He starts speaking english from 30 seconds in.

Muslims are not synonym to bad people. I think it's mostly the arab culture that's just fucked up. I also wanna not that a muslim believes in the earlier books from god as well. They're just not considered as the perfect books as they've been edited alot.

Religion all began in the middle east. It has had too much of a big impact to be unreal. I mean history fades and the stories probably start to sound surreal with time. But i don't think all the stuff have just come out of nothing from one person that made up a good story that made so much sense for the average and the intelligent people

There is also alot of scientific knowledge to be found in the quran. Stuff that hadn't been discovered back in the days were already stated in the almost 1500 year old quran. Things like the world being round like a ball and how the proces goes of a birth of a child. If you do a bit of research about islam and why people become muslim, it may convince you.

Sadly the islam has got to fight alot against made up stories and douchebags  giving the islam a bad name. It's especially noticable in the US with it's brainwashing media/government.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on July 25, 2011, 10:21:02 am
That Atheism picture is a 4chan troll picture, I hope you guys know.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on July 25, 2011, 01:30:16 pm
Sharky: the current worldwide totals for some of the more iconic ones are as follows;

Christianity: 2.2 billion followers
Muslim: 1.2-1.57 billion followers
Hinduism (Confirmed 3rd largest religion, no numbers that I could find)
Buddhism: Anywhere from 230 million-1.6 billion followers (huge estimation, lots of gray area)
Judaism: 13.4 million


Anyway, hopefully the recent mass murder of 90 people in Norway by a Christian seeking to rid the world of Islam will stop people like Waffle from feeling like religious extremism is isolated to one particular religion....but I doubt some people will ever change their views.

Edit: And no, I'm not Muslim or Christian.

Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 25, 2011, 01:38:24 pm
@Crazy Tails

I watched 20 minuites of the video so far and I have some bad news, it isnt just the bible that has some really dodgey shit in it... trust me the quran has a ton of it too.

edit:

I've watched more,
This is a man who cannot live with out following something, he was christian but he studied it and found its errors... So in his own words he left Christianity and started looking for a new faith and he went with the one he personally found the least plot holes in.

His story is a nice one, but thats all it is... Nothing here convinces me there is a god, he was already convinced there was a god... All he is talking about is which one he finds the most pleasing to read...

Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: CrazyT on July 25, 2011, 03:19:47 pm
Ah well at least thanks for watching it. I was a christian too so maybe  that's how it was easier for me to grasp. I don't think it's nesceseraly that he cannot live without following something. I guess some people just find logical sense in the world being created by something and a credible source (in his opinion) that encourages it.

The quran is full of scientific knowledge even before non muslim scientists found out with evolved technoligy. There is a lot of stuff in the quran that astonished me personally. It convinced me to be more open minded about the other things which I found weird at first (still do about some things, but I really feel like I gotta know more) but a good friend always tries his best to eleborate but he himself isn't very knowledgable either.



 




Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 25, 2011, 03:39:40 pm
I've always loved Douglas Adams "Is there an Artificial God?" speech. Perfectly explains the invention of God, among other things.

Full speech: http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/ (http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/)

Excerpt:
Quote
Where does the idea of God come from? Well, I think we have a very skewed point of view on an awful lot of things, but let's try and see where our point of view comes from. Imagine early man. Early man is, like everything else, an evolved creature and he finds himself in a world that he's begun to take a little charge of; he's begun to be a tool-maker, a changer of his environment with the tools that he's made and he makes tools, when he does, in order to make changes in his environment. To give an example of the way man operates compared to other animals, consider speciation, which, as we know, tends to occur when a small group of animals gets separated from the rest of the herd by some geological upheaval, population pressure, food shortage or whatever and finds itself in a new environment with maybe something different going on.

Take a very simple example; maybe a bunch of animals suddenly finds itself in a place where the weather is rather colder. We know that in a few generations those genes which favour a thicker coat will have come to the fore and we'll come and we'll find that the animals have now got thicker coats. Early man, who's a tool maker, doesn't have to do this: he can inhabit an extraordinarily wide range of habitats on earth, from tundra to the Gobi Desert - he even manages to live in New York for heaven's sake - and the reason is that when he arrives in a new environment he doesn't have to wait for several generations; if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I'll have it off him”. Tools have enabled us to think intentionally, to make things and to do things to create a world that fits us better. Now imagine an early man surveying his surroundings at the end of a happy day's tool making. He looks around and he sees a world which pleases him mightily: behind him are mountains with caves in - mountains are great because you can go and hide in the caves and you are out of the rain and the bears can't get you; in front of him there's the forest - it's got nuts and berries and delicious food; there's a stream going by, which is full of water - water's delicious to drink, you can float your boats in it and do all sorts of stuff with it; here's cousin Ug and he's caught a mammoth - mammoth's are great, you can eat them, you can wear their coats, you can use their bones to create weapons to catch other mammoths. I mean this is a great world, it's fantastic.

But our early man has a moment to reflect and he thinks to himself, 'well, this is an interesting world that I find myself in' and then he asks himself a very treacherous question, a question which is totally meaningless and fallacious, but only comes about because of the nature of the sort of person he is, the sort of person he has evolved into and the sort of person who has thrived because he thinks this particular way. Man the maker looks at his world and says 'So who made this then?' Who made this? - you can see why it's a treacherous question. Early man thinks, 'Well, because there's only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he's probably male'. And so we have the idea of a god. Then, because when we make things we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself , 'If he made it, what did he make it for?' Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, 'This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely' and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 25, 2011, 04:03:49 pm
I understand, there are some good moral stories in the Quran and even the Bible, they are really kind of like guide lines to live your life by after all, although very out dated and often really dodgy stuff like stoning people and other over blown punishments for petty crimes.

I think the fact that this man in the video felt he couldn't trust the Bible because Noah was an alcoholic and not because the Ark story is... Well... 100% impossible was a bit suspect and made me question his sanity a bit, lol.

I see a lot of bickering over which religion is the correct one not to mention killing over it… With lots of people caught up in those finer details and nobody actually wondering if any of it is real at all. I’m the kind of person that needs to see proof of something before I believe it or scientific evidence. ‘Having Faith’ simply does not cut it for me. You can have faith in any religion and most probably tell you to do because there is no evidence of their god/gods.

I watched the entire video btw; I don't like to be someone that argues any case with out doing full research on the counter argument... I see it far too often in religious people who simply will not listen to the other side of the argument or give it a chance, if I didn't study the counter argument I'd be just as bad as they are but arguing for the other side.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 25, 2011, 04:23:17 pm
I've always loved Douglas Adams "Is there an Artificial God?" speech. Perfectly explains the invention of God, among other things.

Full speech: http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/ (http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/)

Excerpt:

Absolute genius btw.
If I would be so BOLD as to try and expand on what Adams was saying,

The primitive man has created his own perfect world (as good as it gets for a cave man anyway), he is the only creature that can use tools and ask difficult questions. He basically blows his own mind and doesn't realize that HE is pretty much god of his surroundings, he has used his own potential to make his world perfect for him, not some higher power.

A 'God' was drempt up with the first use of abstract thought in early humans, before humans were smart enough to ask difficult questions about their world and nobody was around to dream up a god, there was no religion and there fore no God and no worshipers, just savage animals on an imperfect planet.

Then as people got a bit smarter they realized you can control people that fear a greater power, you tell them that they have to live this way and if they don’t the great JuJu in the sky will make their crops fail and cast lighting magic on their face and make their wives ugly. People suddenly start doing what they think god wants from them.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 29, 2011, 07:11:44 pm
I may be wrong but I'm quite sure that there are more Muslims in the world than there are Christians.

Also, at one time the Roman and Greek gods were 'quite strong' where are they now we have the cheak to call it 'mythology' as if there is more credibility for the current religions.

America will be slow to take up the concept of there not being a god because its so ingrained in every day life there... But in many European countries there is a higher number of athiests then anyone else, people are wising up. In Denmark for example 80% of the population don't believe in a god or follow a religion. Outside of Europe; Japan is the highest place of 'non-believers' at I believe around 60%.

This has shot up in the past 20 years, in a couple of hundred years I see Europe, Japan and probably some other places being pretty much religion free. 2000 years? Things will be massively different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups)
Islam is less.

Greek Gods are different, aren't they? Do they even have their own books and stuff implying they exist? (Bible for example)

I don't get how people explain how the Bible is fake. It IS a pretty long book and I doubt someone would write about fairy tails for years.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 29, 2011, 08:29:31 pm
Responding to those who mentioned me:

It mainly seems like Waffle is the one getting hyper, everybody else has been ok, I think.

Hyper? Standing outside a church and whacking ping pong balls at it seems a bit more advanced in hostility to me. I was just pointing out how I felt about a particular religion and how it feels about me. Since it existed before I did, I can safely say ‘they started it’.

America is not Saudi Arabia.....America is a country that prides itself on being a free country and a country tolerant of different religious faiths. Saudi Arabia does not.

America is not Saudi Arabia, and be thankful for that.

Cool that. Too bad I am not American. The post I responded to was not even an American example. If you want a mosque next door then go ahead and build it, I do not care. Just keep it in America and Saudi Arabia.

While you are at it, maybe remove all your AMERICA FREEDOM BASES from my country? Even Muslims would appreciate that, I bet!

Anyway, hopefully the recent mass murder of 90 people in Norway by a Christian seeking to rid the world of Islam will stop people like Waffle from feeling like religious extremism is isolated to one particular religion....but I doubt some people will ever change their views.

Actually he attacked the Norwegian Labour Party for being Marxist. It was a political attack, not a religious one. I am aware he was Christian and disliked Muslims, but it was not the core reason for his actions. Additionally I am not even a Christian, so it has nothing to do with me.

The quran is full of scientific knowledge even before non muslim scientists found out with evolved technoligy. There is a lot of stuff in the quran that astonished me personally. It convinced me to be more open minded about the other things which I found weird at first (still do about some things, but I really feel like I gotta know more) but a good friend always tries his best to eleborate but he himself isn't very knowledgable either.

While I have yet to read the Quran (and I intend to), I have a hard time believing this. Most of what I have studied in early/medieval Islamic scientific advances has been plagiarism. A lot of it is Persian, Greek, and Roman science that was taken from regions invaded (probably most notably the whole of Persia). To say Muslims figured this out is plain wrong, others did previously.

One Muslim claim I see a lot is that Muslims created the Renaissance in Europe, due to a significant source being Moorish Iberia (occupied by Muslims, mostly converted Berber peoples). People leave out the part where almost all of it, if I recall correctly, was from Greeks like Aristotle who died long before Islam ever existed. I give full credit to the Greeks, Romans, and pre-Islamic Middle Easterners.

Muslims also try hard to hide it, declaring it illegal and a death sentence to say Islam is hierarchical to anything prior. Imams actually accuse people of this to have them murdered, and then claim the murderer goes directly to heaven. What a cowardly way to cover things up. If you want an example of this, check out your magic space rock in Mecca. Pre-Islamic Arabs were worshipping that prior to Islam. It is not a gift from Allah. It is a stolen relic that actually has no spiritual meaning.

To get back to science here, another stolen concept that is easy to identify is 'Arabic numerals'. Muslims claim to be grand mathematicians here, yet it was the Hindus who created this. Muslim Arabs simply stole it and shoved their name on it.

In case anyone thinks this is an attack on Arabs, non-Islamic Arabs are just as much victims in these regards. The Pagan Arabs were all murdered, raped, and enslaved by Muslims, along with any Pagan anywhere else where Islam spread. Persia, as I mentioned, had entire cities massacred by invading Muslims. Apparently stealing all their ideas and knowledge was not enough, Persins had to be exterminated as well in their own homeland. Today barely anyone in Persia is an ancient Persia. The same goes for Egypt (Coptics are the Egyptians and they all live in ghettos, Arabic Muslims are colonialists).

Everything in Islam is based upon the work of others. Beyond science, even architecture is taken. The columns, arches, and domes of a Mosque are practically all Roman. Saudi Arabia even still uses Roman roads today. Without oil and propaganda, Muslims truly have nothing. They ruined what used to be the centre of human civilisation and what was previously known as ‘the fertile crescent’ – turning it into a massive, desolate desert today. The Tigris River was named after tigers, for instance, and it used to be lush and fertile in pre-Islamic times. Today it is filled with foreign Muslims and practically a deforested wasteland of infighting and environmental rot.

The original Babylonians, like Persians and many Greeks, have had everything stolen and destroyed, and they are now a minority in Babylonia. Many are expelled to other countries today (usually they are listed as Christian refugees, but these are the remains of the indigenous people driven out by Muslims). Assyrians are another close example of people robbed of their knowledge and scattered from their homes.

Maybe you can see why non-Islamic nations might have a problem with Muslims showing up? I could keep going on all day about how many people have been exterminated and displaced by Islam. I guess I should throw in the original people of Anatolia too who exterminated by Turks. It used to be Greek and Armenian, but not today. They are even still doing it in Cyprus where recently ancient Churches and Synagogues have been destroyed by Muslim invaders. The people living there cannot even visit half of their own island. Again another example of Islamic intolerance for others.

And perhaps you could explain to everyone the Islamic head tax placed on non-Muslims under Shari Law? I am sure they would be delighted to know what it is.

. The hate towards islam is understandable. Waffle for instance makes good points about not being permitted to build churches in Saudia for instance. Same about not being permitted to visit the place if you are not muslim. But he completely ignores the fact that, apart from those places, churches are built around muslim countries almost everywhere else.

Untrue. Check my Cyprus example. In Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Turkey I can also easily think of examples of non-Muslims being attacked regularly. Shia Muslim in Iran constantly attack Zoroastrianists, with the government having recently bulldozed one of their grave yards that was still in use. In Saudi Arabia and surrounding countries – along with Pakistan – priests are generally murdered. And in Egypt the foreign Muslims continuously attack the Coptic Catholics, not allowing them religious freedom in their native land. Buddhism also used to be in Afghanistan, but they too were exterminated. Only a few decades ago a giant, ancient statue of Buddha in a mountain was destroyed in Afghanistan, destroying an irreplaceable relic and work of art, all because it was not Islamic. And inner-Muslim hatred is strong as well, as seen in Iraq between Sunnis and Shia, around Saudi Arabia, in Pakistan, and in Turkey (try being a Kurd there, or in Iraq). In Palestine the Muslims also abuse their own people if they are Christian. Arabs have their houses set on fire by other Islamic Arabs simply due to the fact that they are not Muslims.

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Saudia Arabia is solely built in a way that you wouldn't even wanna be there if you're not muslim. It's not just a holy place for muslims. But theres literally nothing to be found other than religious stuff. I mean compare it to a friend group you wouldn't wanna hang out with in a major scale. It's no place of "tourism" allthough I would like to learn more about this as I do  think it'd be nice for people being able to see how dedicated they are. But then again, the place is holy so I reckon that they want to keep it clean from things muslims consider as non islamic and sinful.

This is actually a good post. Europe too is built this way, as is India, as is North Africa, as is the Levant, as is Anatolia, as is North America, as is Africa, and so on. The expectation being that it is the reverse. So Hindus, Buddhists, and Sikhs in India, for example.

Apparently Muslims cannot give other people the respect they expect for themselves. Everywhere has to be for Muslims, but no non-Muslims around them. And if so, they have to be slaves or an underclass.

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Saudia Arabia is Also controlled by corrupted governmential douchebags. Theres alot of shit going on there that worries a lot of muslims. Most muslims go there just for mecca but other than that the country is ruled by an idiotic moron that doesn't care much about the people, moreso about money. From our perspective, the guy sold his soul to life. It's considered a sin if you value life too much, as it can bring the worst out of people.(greed, ego, arrogance)

Mecca.. you mean that city created by non-Muslims who were then slaughtered by Muslims with everything they owned stolen?

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Also about the muhamed(pbuh) statement waffle quoted. I never read it myself but then again, I haven't read the sunna(Book written by prophets followers about him). He probably said it, but you also have to realise that that is what we muslims  truly believe what's gonna happen with non believers. It may seem cruel and we humans don't judge you for being a non believer. But we muslims believe when someone gets the message (a clear explenation of the religion) and ignores it, chances are that he may not be forgiven. You're free to find it nonsense and nobody is going to judge you for it.

Thanks for being honest!

I frequently get attacked whenever I quote Muhammad, usually by non-Muslims who think I am lying. I even see court cases of people being jailed for making quotes. I remember one of an Austrian being legally attacked because she called Muhammad a paedophile, despite the fact that he had a 9 year old wife.

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Religion all began in the middle east. It has had too much of a big impact to be unreal. I mean history fades and the stories probably start to sound surreal with time. But i don't think all the stuff have just come out of nothing from one person that made up a good story that made so much sense for the average and the intelligent people

No it did not. Abrahamic religion began in the Middle East (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). Other religions long outdate them, especially the latter two. Hinduism is older than Judaism, for example.

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There is also alot of scientific knowledge to be found in the quran. Stuff that hadn't been discovered back in the days were already stated in the almost 1500 year old quran. Things like the world being round like a ball and how the proces goes of a birth of a child. If you do a bit of research about islam and why people become muslim, it may convince you.

Haha, no. Greeks accurately measured the earth as round over a thousand years before Islam existed. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#Eratosthenes.27_measurement_of_the_Earth.27s_circumference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#Eratosthenes.27_measurement_of_the_Earth.27s_circumference)

And this is just the measurement, it was theorised hundreds of years before he was born. One example people thought of is why they could see different stars in Europe compared to Egypt. It is not as complex as you make this appear, though that measurement surely was.

Maybe you should consider rejecting Islam instead of others considering a conversion. Europe and the Middle East were far more advanced in ancient times than you seem to think. Islam and Christianity are a plague when it comes to science.


And on a personal note, I want to restate that I do eventually plan to read the Quran, or at least listen to it. So if you want, suggest me a translation or an audio book of it. And in case anyone is wondering: no, I am not a Christian. Religiously I followed pre-Christian British religions of Celts and Germans, and I am not spiritual.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 30, 2011, 06:40:12 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups)
Islam is less.

Greek Gods are different, aren't they? Do they even have their own books and stuff implying they exist? (Bible for example)

I don't get how people explain how the Bible is fake. It IS a pretty long book and I doubt someone would write about fairy tails for years.



I'm not sure how Greek gods or any gods are different, they had temples and they had there own scriptures and beliefs. Back then it was often written on stone tablets and if there were books I suspect they are long gone. The only difference is that it's a dead religion now.

As for people writing fairy tales... have you SEEN the amount of lore in Lord of the Rings or Star Wars? They eclipse the bible...
But on a serious note, the people writing these books didn't think they were making up fairy tales. Some of them might, it's hard to tell since they are written by lots of different people sometimes hundreds of years apart.

Read the bible or the quran or in fact any holy book and you'll find a lot of it is just babble about out dated law and punishment which seems totally unfair and stupid by today’s standards, stories that cannot possible have happened like ‘Adam and Eve’ or ‘Noah’s Ark’ and a lot of 'god is great'... It's not the most complex thing ever written.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 30, 2011, 05:23:29 pm
There is a significant difference between following a rotted old book in comparison to having the ability to progress ideas and traditions. Compare Christian Greece to pre-Christian Greece. Look at what was accomplished.

The only positive trait I can see in holy books are their function of allowing people to read, and unifying people through language. Martin Luther, for example, unified Germany due to his translation of the Bible into German. It gave Germans a common language and the ability to read/write (in mass). Prior only the priest class would be able to read/write, thus they controlled society (due to their ability to read/write Latin, as the Bible was written in at the time). I would assume Arabic served the same function with the Quran, although that is an unfortunate example of a foreign language being forced upon non-Arabic peoples outside Arabia (Islam teaches that Arabic is a holy language, Muslims must worship Mecca, and that Arabs are racially superior - though different sects have altered this somewhat). Despite these examples, literacy truly had nothing to do with religion itself. Literacy can be spread through other means, as is apparent today. I could equally praise the printing press for having accomplished this, and that obviously has nothing to do with religion.

Also to say that all 'Gods' are the same seems rather ignorant. No, they are not. Otherwise they would not differ, would they? And no, Greek religion is not dead.

It is a mistake when people think of comparing religions through simply thinking about the similarities of Abrahamic religions, which all share the same 'God', structure, creators, origins, and texts. Other religions differ vastly and many have no holy book that keeps them stuck in a specific era. The mention of 'fairy tales' are again like I posted about before, simply Jewish folk stories. Why Christians and Muslims pay attention to them I cannot understand, they are specific to Jews and no one else. If anything they help highlight how alien Christianity and Islam are outside of a tiny portion of the world.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on July 30, 2011, 08:47:16 pm
My biggest beef with religion is that they don't teach you about evolution, at least not the correct way.
Remember that 4chan troll image I posted? That is basically what they say in Church, believe it or not. It is like they don't want you to know about evolution and the teachers make it seem like a theory made from a 3 year old. :/

Oh, and it is pretty hard to argue with an atheist when you barely know what their theory is. D=

Yes, I'm a Chirstian. Just if you were wondering.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 30, 2011, 09:29:55 pm
Creationism seems to be more American orientated. I was in a Christian school for 7 years where we prayed every day to Jesus and had to study the bible, along with visiting Christian temples frequently, and never was evolution something that was denied. They simply mentioned it in science class for what it was and nothing more.

I can only assume those that deny evolution are being either stubborn or are legitimately mentally retarded.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on July 31, 2011, 02:16:52 am
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Also to say that all 'Gods' are the same seems rather ignorant. No, they are not. Otherwise they would not differ, would they? And no, Greek religion is not dead.

I'm not saying all gods are the same, not in that respect anyway.
But they are all the same in the sense that they are a product of people not understanding the world around them.

You go back far enough and god was everything, why the sun came up, why the grass grew, how humans got here. The more we understand about our universe/world the less God became until now it's sort of a stubborn idea that is lingering like a bad smell and holding society back.


AutoSaver my belief is very simple, it is that we are not advanced enough to understand the reason that all of this happened yet. There are some very good theories out there but I don't really subscribe to any of them whole heartedly. It's even possible, (though imo extremely unlikely) that there was an intelligent designer... But it certainly wasn't a Christian, Muslim or any other god from any religion people follow today. When you think for yourself it's very easy to pick holes in pretty much every religion going, quite easily.

Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on July 31, 2011, 03:48:29 am
Are they misunderstandings or personifications of human traits to aspire to?

I think it depends more on an individual's view of Gods. Figuring out they do not exist does not really change what they mean.

For example, do you think anyone actually believes Britannia exists? The Goddess figure of Britain, I mean. Or do you think it is symbolism?

Symbolism is what I see most Gods as, not actual beings. That is where religion becomes creative, in contrast to the insanity you see in other religions where they literally expect you to believe in their myth to the point of worshipping and dying/murdering for it.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Emmett The Crab on July 31, 2011, 08:56:22 pm
Beleif and faith give life to gods.  We create our own afterlife.  That's what I believe.   I believe god is everything, and we are all a part of it.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 01, 2011, 01:29:35 am
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Cool that. Too bad I am not American. The post I responded to was not even an American example. If you want a mosque next door then go ahead and build it, I do not care. Just keep it in America and Saudi Arabia.


If you do not want a generalized answer to your post then don't post in generalities. Your posts read like Nazi propaganda, hate to tell ya man. My country allows for freedom of religion; no idea where you're from, but that's how it works where I live. What's done in Saudi Arabia and who they allow to worship there has nothing to do with my country or the Muslims in my country. 

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While you are at it, maybe remove all your AMERICA FREEDOM BASES from my country? Even Muslims would appreciate that, I bet!

They probably would, LOL, but that has nothing to do with this topic. I do always find it funny though how quickly the Arab League for example demanded our help in Libya despite their supposed "hatred" of our military. France is the same way. They begged for our help in that conflict too. I certainly don't support all the foreign policy decisions my country makes, but it's funny to me how many people seem to hate the American military until they find themselves in need of our help... :-X

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Actually he attacked the Norwegian Labour Party for being Marxist. It was a political attack, not a religious one. I am aware he was Christian and disliked Muslims, but it was not the core reason for his actions. Additionally I am not even a Christian, so it has nothing to do with me.

Call it what you will dude, lol.....politics, not religion, are at the heart of Al Qaida's actions as well, they merely use religion as a pretext for their actions in order to gain followers. The stash of weed and porn found at Bin Laden's compound doesn't demonstrate a man of as "pure faith" as how he claimed he was to his followers, that's for sure, lmao. 

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Untrue. Check my Cyprus example. In Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Turkey I can also easily think of examples of non-Muslims being attacked regularly.

With the exception of Turkey, those are all 3rd world countries man.....not a great demonstration of the civilized Muslim world. The United Arab Emirates (Dubai) is an example of a peaceful and prosperous (mostly) Muslim nation.

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Mecca.. you mean that city created by non-Muslims who were then slaughtered by Muslims with everything they owned stolen?

Okay...how about the Christians killed by Roman rule? How about the millions slaughtered by the Christians in the Crusades? Again, you act like these problems are exclusive to the Muslim faith. It's true that Islam is practiced (and used to govern) in countries that happen to be INCREDIBLY poor and backwards. Using those countries to brand all Muslims with a label is rather ignorant and I'm surprised to see someone with such eloquent posts making such a dumb generalization.

(Again, I'm neither Muslim nor Christian.)

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The mention of 'fairy tales' are again like I posted about before, simply Jewish folk stories. Why Christians and Muslims pay attention to them I cannot understand, they are specific to Jews and no one else.

lmao to classify the Old Testament as "Jewish folk stories" is pretty ridiculous.....if one is a follower of  an Abrahamic religion, to ignore the Old Testament would be to disregard a huge chunk of those religions. Most people who consider themselves faithful to one of those religions believe that the stories are sacred, or, at the very least, work important to the themes of the religion. Since they deal with the alleged creation of humanity, I don't see at all how they're "specific to Jews."



Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 01, 2011, 10:27:57 am
Is that how the Americans are swinging it?

Because in truth, unlike Iraq there was good reason to go into Libya but the Americans backed down. It wasn't that the Americans were epically needed but it would have been nice to see a bit more support.

When the Americans finally did start to act holy shit what a mess they made... It was like the Iraq war all over again. A US plane crashed... So then Libyan civilians rushed out to help them rescue them and what happened? The Americans came in with a gunship and shot at, killed and wounded the people they are there to protect. The people who were saving the American pilots! It was a bloody mess…

So yeah everyone has grounds to hate the American military, nothing reminds the world how shit they are like any conflict they are in... They make up the numbers... Which is nessisary in war, but they have a unique way to be shit at everything. =3
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 01, 2011, 10:37:44 am
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Is that how the Americans are swinging it?

Well no, actually America largely did not favor intervention in Libya. I think American citizens are for the most part tired of war, and are tired of being dragged into these conflicts by people who clearly then don't appreciate our help.

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Because in truth, unlike Iraq there was good reason to go into Libya but the Americans backed down. It wasn't that the Americans were epically needed but it would have been nice to see a bit more support.


Dude the world went into Libya for the same reason America (and yes, England) went into Iraq; France gets a large supply of oil from Libya, and an unstable dictator losing control of himself and killing his people poses great risk for France's ability to continue to get oil from the country. There's nothing stopping this guy from losing his mind and sealing off his country or destroying his oil wells or whatever. When a crazed and desperate dictator is in charge of arguably the world's most important resource, it becomes in the interest of those who benefit from that resource to interfere. That's why France demanded our help and that's why we demanded their help to go into Iraq. The difference is that they said "fuck you" to us and yet we, like an ally, supported them. Despite the fact that we don't get our oil from Libya, so our involvement was pretty effing nice of us. Europe is the main continent who benefits from Libyan oil; the US certainly doesn't, so why does Europe need our help for all their problems?

If you think France demanded the world join them in Libya because they feel sorry for the Libyan people, that's just naive thinking on your part. (They certainly didn't give two craps about the Iraqi people back in 2003, lol...) America went into Iraq to remove an unstable dictator who was in charge of a large portion of the world's oil. Our motives were disguised by our dumbass president to be "all about the Iraq people," and "fighting terrorism" when in reality, it was about resources. Libya is the same way, and you're kidding yourself if you think it isn't.


Don't get me wrong, though, Iraq was a mistake made by our dumbass president and Libya I feel is a cause that's much more legit and that we can WIN. But the free world's motives for entering these countries is strictly for resources, man, and it's always been.

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When the Americans finally did start to act holy shit what a mess they made... It was like the Iraq war all over again. A US plane crashed... So then Libyan civilians rushed out to help them rescue them and what happened? The Americans came in with a gunship and shot at, killed and wounded the people they are there to protect. The people who were saving the American pilots! It was a bloody mess…

Do you have a source for this, lol? Just curious. Not saying I think it's impossible or anything but I'd love to know the details. And yeah, dude, shit happens in war. When you have tons of troops suddenly entering and escallating conflict, miscommunication and other issues happen, war is a tragic scenario, humans are not perfect, and shit does go wrong. If people feel that the American military is so incompetent then they should just take care of their own stuff themselves.

...oh wait, they can't, because then it would be THEIR people dying instead of ours. Of course. It's so easy for European nations to try to call the shots and demand the world's help in their oil disputes when they have the United States to do all their fighting for them.  ::) And then it's America who looks bad in the eyes of the rest of the world when things don't go well over there, of course.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 02, 2011, 06:54:01 am
Point A:
What was the last conflict you were 'dragged into'... Just wondering... I'm pretty sure that the people of Iraq would have been a ton more thankful if the war in 2003 and the following years hadn't been handled so badly.
Seriously the Americans were (accidentally) bombing hospitals, schools, TV crews, even each other... It was a bloody mess and it has been since. I don't see why anyone would appreciate what Iraq is today.

Point B:
I fully understand the real motives for wars like Iraq and Libya, nobody goes in just for the good of others. But Libya was British and French lead and the British get almost all of their oil from Norway/North Sea. We also joined you in Iraq and whilst we do get Oil from Iraq it's a small amount compared to America... It was also the British putting pressure on America to join in Libya not just the French.

Point C
It touches on it in this report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12816226)

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If people feel that the American military is so incompetent then they should just take care of their own stuff themselves.

...oh wait, they can't, because then it would be THEIR people dying instead of ours. Of course. It's so easy for European nations to try to call the shots and demand the world's help in their oil disputes when they have the United States to do all their fighting for them.  ::) And then it's America who looks bad in the eyes of the rest of the world when things don't go well over there, of course.

I find this argument really poor... Half of Europe went into Iraq and Afghanistan when America declared war and we still have our dead coming back from those wars... Thankyou very much. Just because France decided not to go into Iraq suddenly America stopped importing from them and started calling everything with 'French' in the title 'freedom' like 'freedom fries'... What kind of cunty childish move is that? Talk about trying to bully another nation into war.

All the British and French have done is to ask America to step it up a bit in Libya where they are clearly not interested in putting any effort in because it doesn’t directly benefit them.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 02, 2011, 12:58:16 pm
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Point A:
What was the last conflict you were 'dragged into'... Just wondering... I'm pretty sure that the people of Iraq would have been a ton more thankful if the war in 2003 and the following years hadn't been handled so badly.
Seriously the Americans were (accidentally) bombing hospitals, schools, TV crews, even each other... It was a bloody mess and it has been since. I don't see why anyone would appreciate what Iraq is today.

As is what happens in all wars. It was badly-handled because we were not fighting soldiers, we were fighting insurgents who had no problem blowing themselves up. Little combat training can effectively prepare soldiers for that type of enemy.

Again, I am *not* defending the Iraq War, man. Yeah it was incredibly stupid. You can understand why America was hesitant to jump into another Middle Eastern war. As far as Iraq, the VAST majority of troops were American soldiers. Again, it's understandable, it was our war. But I feel like it takes a lot of nerve for especially France (and I'm 1/4 French!) to demand our help in what's really their conflict after how they reacted to our Middle East War. (And yes, the "Freedom Fries" thing was silly.)

Libya's the same exact thing.....Saddam Hussein killed his people in the same way that Libya's dictator did. And yet that was unacceptable to France that we entered Iraq and yet here they are, ordering us into Libya because now it benefits *them.*

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Point B:
I fully understand the real motives for wars like Iraq and Libya, nobody goes in just for the good of others. But Libya was British and French lead and the British get almost all of their oil from Norway/North Sea. We also joined you in Iraq and whilst we do get Oil from Iraq it's a small amount compared to America... It was also the British putting pressure on America to join in Libya not just the French.

Neither Britain nor France gets the MAJORITY of their oil from Libya but they are a source of oil. Europe benefits greatly from a peaceful and cooperative Libya.

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All the British and French have done is to ask America to step it up a bit in Libya where they are clearly not interested in putting any effort in because it doesn’t directly benefit them.

lol by "step up" you mean "take over" the conflict.....because that's basically what happened. Even if you hide behind the "NATO" thing....NATO is basically America under a different name.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 02, 2011, 05:55:47 pm
You were fighting soldiers in Vietnam and that was a complete fuck up too, in fact you lost... just sayin'.

I think the French had every right to deny going to war in Iraq, the reasons for it were extremely poor, if you remember back to 2003 the Americans were saying that they have confirmation that Saddam has WMD's and yet he didn't... There was a lot of miss information which lead to that war. If I had it my way the British wouldn't have gone in either, none of Europe would have.

Afghanistan yes, but guess what?! The French did go to Afghanistan! French forces have been involved in the ongoing War in Afghanistan since 2001 and are still there... What prompted this? The 9/11 attacks on America did... So yeah I think the French have the right to ask America to step it up and the British most freaking certainly do!

Also, dude... You clearly need to read up about NATO, that statement is just ridiculous...


Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 02, 2011, 09:03:28 pm
You were fighting soldiers in Vietnam and that was a complete fuck up too, in fact you lost... just sayin'.

I think the French had every right to deny going to war in Iraq, the reasons for it were extremely poor, if you remember back to 2003 the Americans were saying that they have confirmation that Saddam has WMD's and yet he didn't... There was a lot of miss information which lead to that war. If I had it my way the British wouldn't have gone in either, none of Europe would have.

Afghanistan yes, but guess what?! The French did go to Afghanistan! French forces have been involved in the ongoing War in Afghanistan since 2001 and are still there... What prompted this? The 9/11 attacks on America did... So yeah I think the French have the right to ask America to step it up and the British most freaking certainly do!

Also, dude... You clearly need to read up about NATO, that statement is just ridiculous...




France was right to avoid Iraq however they were wrong to yell at us for wanting to avoid Libya. It wasn't our conflict to get involved in just like Iraq wasn't theirs.

Regarding NATO, you should do some reading up on it yourself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/22/america-owns-the-war-in-libya-whether-we-like-it-or-not.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/22/america-owns-the-war-in-libya-whether-we-like-it-or-not.html)

The conflict in Libya is almost totally American. None of the other allies in the supposed "NATO" alliance are doing squat.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 03, 2011, 08:01:38 am
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Regarding NATO, you should do some reading up on it yourself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/22/america-owns-the-war-in-libya-whether-we-like-it-or-not.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/03/22/america-owns-the-war-in-libya-whether-we-like-it-or-not.html)

The conflict in Libya is almost totally American. None of the other allies in the supposed "NATO" alliance are doing squat.

I'm sorry but that article was absolutely laughable... First of all I've never heard of 'the daily beast' I doubt anyone here has... Clearly not a reputable news outlet, anyone can write online.

Secondly, this really says absolutely nothing about the Americans owning NATO, not sure where you are getting that from. America has no more say in NATO than anyone else. In fact the main NATO HQ is in Europe.

Finally that entire article is extremely childish, yes America does spend an absolute bomb on their military (pun) and does supply weapons/bombs but if you count Europe as a whole instead of trying to count individual countries which are equal to the size of American states Europe has supplied far more and done far more actual combat in Libya. The French alone has flown 35% of NATO's strikes in Libya so far.

In this article he states things like:
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The U.S. has supplied nearly half the aircraft involved in Operation Odyssey Dawn,
What he doesn’t tell you is that this is the name for the US part of enforcing a no-fly-zone over Libya… But the catch is Spain, Belgium, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Canadians, Norway and the United Arab Emirates were all also involved. I don’t think ‘nearly half’ in your own operation is anything to shout about. Not to mention soon after the Americans handed over command of their operation to British and French and assumed a support role.

The British took on Operation Ellamy, The French Operation Harmattan, and Canadians Operation Mobile. These were all flown alone.

Either way, America is involved in Libya, yes… A big role compared to countries that they dwarf in size and military presents? Yep (kind of a given really) but still not the kind of role they are expected to take.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 03, 2011, 10:16:38 am
America's size doesn't mean they should be expected to take the lead role in every single conflict that people want their help in. America may have handed the operation over to NATO but they're still stuck (as you point out) doing the majority of the work in this conflict.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the size of America. So what if we have states bigger than France? France has a hell of a better economy than us now and unlike us, France can actually afford to be in this conflict.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 03, 2011, 11:56:47 am
What happened to this being the religion topic?

I thought it was a spin-off of the politics topic.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on August 03, 2011, 12:37:29 pm
What happened to this being the religion topic?

I thought it was a spin-off of the politics topic.
I was going to say! I'm guessing it has to do with the fact...
Muslims kill people --> Iraq war stuff etc
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 03, 2011, 01:03:22 pm
Christians kill people.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 03, 2011, 01:22:34 pm
America's size doesn't mean they should be expected to take the lead role in every single conflict that people want their help in. America may have handed the operation over to NATO but they're still stuck (as you point out) doing the majority of the work in this conflict.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the size of America. So what if we have states bigger than France? France has a hell of a better economy than us now and unlike us, France can actually afford to be in this conflict.

I don't know what you are talking about, I never said anything about American being expected to take the lead, nobody expects them to...  Also I don't care what obscure weird website you come across, the Americans are not the biggest role in Libya...

America spends (wastes) more on military than everyone else. A large country needs a large military and America has one... Nobody was exactly pushing America, not like the shitty way the Americans treated the French when they wouldn't go to the shame of a war that is Iraq. America stopped importing from France including wine which is their biggest import and basically tried to bully them by shitting on their economy... They aren't doing that in return, all people are saying is, epically in the countries that backed American in Iraq like Britain did BIG TIME... Why gave you our full support, in a long war even a ground invasion where we lots tons of men. There wont even be a ground invasion in Libya, where’s our support in return?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 03, 2011, 11:27:56 pm
What happened to this being the religion topic?

I thought it was a spin-off of the politics topic.

People stopped discussing it for whatever reason.

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America stopped importing from France including wine which is their biggest import and basically tried to bully them by shitting on their economy...

America didn't stop importing from France.....Did some businesses in America choose to re-name fries and stop importing? Sure, it's their right to do whatever they want with their business. You act like the American government was like "NO MORE FRENCH IMPORTS!" which was not the case at all. In fact the American government quickly began asking people to end the anti-French "freedom fries" thing and they made it a rule that in food courts in government buildings, etc "French Fries" had to be called "French Fries."

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Nobody was exactly pushing America,

Are you kidding? Britain and France and other nations in Europe were doing their best to make America look like complete villains for not initially wanting to participate. The picture must look much rosier from over there, that's the only explanation I can think of for your views.  :o
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 04, 2011, 04:53:51 am
Those 'people' are just you two.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 04, 2011, 06:48:26 am
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Are you kidding? Britain and France and other nations in Europe were doing their best to make America look like complete villains for not initially wanting to participate. The picture must look much rosier from over there, that's the only explanation I can think of for your views.
Then I can only imagine your awful media and news outlets were hyping it up and making drama out of it, as they always do. I'm sure Glen Beck and those types had a feild day.

How ever, here it was barely making the news...
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on August 04, 2011, 07:06:21 am
Geez, the whole Libya thing is a farce anyways. These so called "rebels" already had weapons on them within the second week of demonstrating. And now they've killed one of their generals for some petty dispute. These guys are being backed by the states or whatever country that's giving these people weapons in the first pace. They're just don't want to be seen using military resources and doing the job themselves. Its Afganistan all over again. I know that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it but bloody hell, to repeat the same mistake this quickly? And were still fighting in two other middle eastern countries.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 04, 2011, 12:39:43 pm
For the record, Sharky, I actually did support us going into Libya, and still do.

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Those 'people' are just you two.

Erm wha? I posted a response to you and you never replied to it, and Sharky and I then went off-topic. You are all welcome to come back in and continue the original discussion, but none of you have done so.

Me and Sharky's discussion's likely done now anyway.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on August 04, 2011, 01:03:52 pm
Christians kill people.
That wasn't the point. >.>

The problem is that religion threads don't usually end of in a good spot. If they don't turn into flame wars, they turn into circles. Points have been said and I don't think much could be added on.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on August 05, 2011, 05:35:10 am
That wasn't the point. >.>

The problem is that religion threads don't usually end of in a good spot. If they don't turn into flame wars, they turn into circles. Points have been said and I don't think much could be added on.
Religon doesn't end in a good spot for anybody. You just have to see all the people being killed, depressed,abused or whatever in the name of religon to know that.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on August 05, 2011, 07:13:10 am
I think the issue with religion and discussion of religion is that people that have believes in such things aren't open to talk about facts. They are too busy ignoring facts and believing stories that people have been telling for thousands of years.

I believe that part of Religion becomes culture and celebrating aspects of it is fine. Christmas, Easter etc. I don't mind this. I do mind the people that think they need to kill 90 innocent people on an island to achieve some religious gain or blow themselves up due to some God.

The facts are that religions hardly make sense. You can hate on evolution and say it doesn't exist, but that is ignorant. There is far too much prove of existence of evolution to ignore it. To say no is very stupid.

As for 'doesn't mean there isn't a creator'. Well, since most Christians and other religious groups like to find holes in other people's theories, especially evolution. Explain this. If 'coming form nothing' is a joke, where did God come from? In the end its always going to be from nothing.

We as a human civilization have to move on, find answers. Not believe what some book says is right. If we still did this, we would be in caves, telling our children how the world is flat and how God controls the rain.

Imagine all the things we have disprove that the church used to believe, events that happen that are now explained. Do you think the people that wrote the bible actually knew the truth or that they tried to explain what they couldn't grasp?

Think about it. This world isn't created for us. We adapted to it by course of evolution. If this world is perfect for us, explain that to the starving kids in the world.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 05, 2011, 10:00:57 am
I wrote some Dragonball Z fanfiction not too long ago, telling the story of God and his brother and how they created the universe including Namek and the Namekian leader Guru. If anybody wants to add this to their religious canon, please go right ahead. I'd be honored:

Billions of years ago…

On the first day Gud created every single thing in existence, and it was fuckin’ good. “Real fuckin’ good.” he thought. The Almighty Gud yelled across the universe to his brother, “Hey God, think you can beat that?!”

On Gud’s second day, God created light. “What the fuck! Light?! I created every fuckin’ thing on MY side of the universe in a DAY, and over there you create LIGHT? Oh bravo. Mom would be so proud.”

On Gud’s third day a Twilight Zone marathon was on. “Oh, score!” said Gud.

On Gud’s fourth day the marathon ended. The ventriloquist episode creeped Gud out so he left the sun up for the remainer of the day. “Fuckin’ creepy ass puppets.”

On the fifth day Gud surveyed what he had created. Everything seemed alright.

On the sixth day Gud checked up on his brother, God was almost done with his end of the universe. “Not too bad. But still, five days?! C’mon!”

On the seventh day God was onto his sixth day, meanwhile Gud was dealing with an overpopulation of Beavers on the planet of Namek. “This is getting out of hand.” he thought as he created an army of angry bears to wipe out the beaver population.

On the eighth day God had finally finished. Gud sauntered over to the spiritual line dividing the universe and surveyed his brother’s work.

“Meh.”

“Just ‘Meh’, Gud?”

“It’s alright, but it took you seven days! Rather weak. Heh, they should call seven days a ‘weak’! Fitting name, eh?”

“Ha ha brother, very funny. Hey, what do you think of man?”

“Who? That little pink guy?”

“Yeah, I named him ‘Adam’.”

“Oh my you, dude! That was the name of our cat back when we lived in the town house! Remember that?”

God thought for a moment, “Heh, you know, I don’t I guess it was… what’s that called. Oh shit, brain fart.”

Gud was thinking of the right term for it. “Like in the back of your mind…”.

“Yeah”, said God, “But theres a phrase for it. Anyway thats pretty nuts that I named him after a cat that I hardly remembered.”

“Yeah, screwy. So who is the lady?”

“Oh”, replied God “Adam wanted a fuck buddy.”

“Right on, right on…”

“So what being did you create?”

“Lotsa shit. Beavers, bears, algoretrosses, dinosaurs, lumberjacks…”

“Yeah, but whats your being? Like I have ‘human’, so you have?”

“Hmm” thought Gud, “Well, I was thinking of creating a general manager to watch the place while I did my own thing. Maybe I’d check in on him once in a while.”

God laughed. “But you didn’t do it yet? Ha! looks like I win, I’m done creating my half of the universe and you have yet to create your first being!”

“Fuck off.” Said Gud as he walked away.

On the ninth day, Gud created the general manager of Namek. He was a large green man with pointy ears, squinty eyes and a flat face. Gud also created the employee handbook and tossed it to the new being. “I got to get going, ‘Friends’ season finale is almost on. Read this, it’s mostly what you need to know.” The green creature stared up into the heavens “What’s my name?” “Oh, I dunno. Gu…..ru?” “Works for me boss, Guru it is!” “Great, ttyl!” “Later Gud!”

Guru lowered his eyes to the planet he now occupied. The ground was a magnificent blue while the sky was a glorious green. “Nice.” Guru then opened his employee handbook. Running his hand along the edge of the page, Guru let out a yelp. “Yelp! Fuckin’ paper cut!” Guru stuck his finger in his mouth, licking the wound. He felt a bit of flesh dangling off the tip of his finger. He chewed off the bit of skin and spat it to the ground. The small green bit of skin began to pulse and grow into a being much like Guru.

Having never seen one of his own, Guru panicked and flung the handbook at the head of the new being. the book cut through the neck of the creature, the body slumped to the ground. The head rolled around on the ground, and within moments a body sprung from what was once a bloody stump of a neck. Meanwhile, the lifeless body grew a new head. The two fully-bodied creatures stood. “Heh, sorry about that fellas. I freaked out a bit.” “Oh, no problem” said the first green being “You we’re supposed to do that. Check the handbook, page 2.”

Guru opened the book and read: Welcome to your first day as General Manager of Namek __________ (employee name here). Your first task is to create a race of beings. You and your race will be called Namekians. To procreate, simply slice off a bit of flesh from anywhere and toss it to the ground. What you had lost will grow back, while what you chopped off will become a new Namekian. Give him a name and then repeat the process. The others you create can do the same as you. Try to get to a million Namekians by today so we can show my brother, Mr. Two-Humans, how its done.

Years passed and soon Namek flourished into a strong planet of powerful beings. Namekians became fearsome warriors, relying on the power of Dragonballs to make wishes and drive the plot of an 80′s anime. Guru grew in size and power to become the leader of the Nameks. Using his omnipotent power, given to him as a gift from Gud on his first birthday, Guru altered his creation to being the outcome of a Namekian woman and a family dog. “Nobody must know my secret.” thought Guru. “If I am the product of a woman and a dog, they’ll not expect so much of me as a leader. Can you imagine the requests if they found out that I was basically Gud Junior?!”

More time passed and Guru and his friends went on many adventures. The final adventure was about to begin. The sun rose on Namek as an Algoretross bird cut across the sky. This was Guru’s final day alive.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 05, 2011, 12:07:21 pm
@George

After taking a little breather on this topic, I'm ready to jump in again.
What kinda kills me on all of this, especially as the horrific massacre that had happened in Norway is that I see two completely different reactions, depending on what happens...

Had the criminal been potentially associated with some sort of islamic fringe group, the narrative automatically shifts into announcing the crime (rather then denouncining it) and finding almost immediately any sort of justification for his actions.

However, since in this case the criminal does not have any of those traits, instead it's causian nutjob, there no longer any need for any sympathy or justification, add in effective buzzwords such as "right-wing" and "christian" and you now have something that's garanteed to sell headlines.

First and foremost, how they know the nutjob is a christian I have absolutely no idea and I don't think that public domain pictures of the Crusades, photos of costumes and a rushed copy-and-paste manifesto is any evidence worth printing When you start asking a couple of questions, like:
-To which Christian causes has he donated, which group was he affiliated,etc;

Nobody asks this, but they sure milk that angle like there's no tomorrow. I beleive that his actions were political and not in any religious.

The other curious tendency, is that if indeed a christian was involved in any wrongdoing, there is no generalization, no splitting hairs, nada...

The perp is defined as a "christian".

Take someone else from a different belief system, and the label stops being muslim, or hindu and starts being purely and simply "religion", in order not to offend one particular group, an homogenous label is placed on every possible creed. Does that seem rational?

But anyway, here's a shocker: ignorance and bigotry can also be found in non-religious circles and communities.

I would also go far to say that reducing all the historical facts of most major wars into a religious cause is perhaps the single most intellectually dishonest remark I've ever seen.

As much fun as it is to see "scientists" argue, I put scientists in quotes, because real genuine scientists, unlike Dawkins, Dr. Paul Zachary Myers and such, they have better things to do than spent their times writing anti-religious rants filled with pseudo-progressive platitudes and telling people how they should think on their own scientific blogs that really have nothing to do with the scientific method.

How we all came into being, I have no idea, the big bang theory is an acceptable theory, except that, it was the result and not the cause. What was the First Cause? We have no clue.

The universe is in constant expansion, but if that's the case then it is expanding on something that was already there. But we don't know.

I can understand that there are some ruffled feathers between creationists and evolutionists, but you know, at this point, who cares? Creationism as much as a flawed view of the world, barely has any footing in the US or any other part of the world, unless you count one school in the middle of Nowhere, USA, which even then, no longer teaches it, so score one for a battle in a war that's been over a long time.

So when people come to me and preach "ah, ah, ah look at those silly creationists", my response is "who the heck cares?", I don't know anyone nor was I ever taught creationism at school.


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We as a human civilization have to move on, find answers. Not believe what some book says is right. If we still did this, we would be in caves, telling our children how the world is flat and how God controls the rain.

Here's another example of misinformation, the "flat Earth" myth is a subject that been embedded into pop culture for years, as apparentely Columbus wanted to prove that the world was round.
This is an insult to every historian known to man, since everybody knew (except maybe some pagans) around that time that the world was indeed round.

And you know, people have moved on, churchs are mostly just building and the Vatican is little more than a city and the Pope is little more than the spiritual leader of the Vatican city. So it puzzles me how the Church is supossed to be dominating mankind when other modern strands of irrationallity and fringe groups have a much tighter grip on politics and culture.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Autosaver on August 05, 2011, 01:06:18 pm
What if God made "evolution"

...?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 05, 2011, 01:41:29 pm
You mean evolution by design?

It's an interestinfg brain teaser.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 05, 2011, 02:42:20 pm
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First and foremost, how they know the nutjob is a christian I have absolutely no idea and I don't think that public domain pictures of the Crusades, photos of costumes and a rushed copy-and-paste manifesto is any evidence worth printing When you start asking a couple of questions, like:
-To which Christian causes has he donated, which group was he affiliated,etc;

Nobody asks this, but they sure milk that angle like there's no tomorrow. I beleive that his actions were political and not in any religious.

The other curious tendency, is that if indeed a christian was involved in any wrongdoing, there is no generalization, no splitting hairs, nada...

The perp is defined as a "christian".

Take someone else from a different belief system, and the label stops being muslim, or hindu and starts being purely and simply "religion", in order not to offend one particular group, an homogenous label is placed on every possible creed. Does that seem rational?


Hm....gotta respectfully disagree with you there, man. The dude wrote thousand+ pages of manifesto about his religion. He identified himself as that religion. People have no right to say whether he "is a Christian" or not. He identified himself as a Christian, therefore, that's what he was.

Just like in the Fort Hood massacre, done by a Muslim, it was heavily reported that the man was Muslim. People had no problem identifying him as a Muslim almost immediately, and these same people (Bill O'Reilly) are now playing the "How do we even know this guy's a Christian?" angle for this case. It's a typical example of hypocracy. People are willing to blame other religions for society's issues as long as it's not their own that's being targeted.

But Jon Stewart says it better than I ever could.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-27-2011/in-the-name-of-the-fodder (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-27-2011/in-the-name-of-the-fodder)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 05, 2011, 03:46:29 pm
Sorry to disagree, but Jon Stewart is not on authority on anything.

The Ford Hood massacre, maybe I'm blanking out on things, but let's say that Fox News actually did point out that the gentleman in question was muslim. Even if he was and much like the early reports in Norway, ABC, CNN and such were quick to seek out a justification for his actions.

In fact, here's a quick comparison between both articles (ABC (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/11/06/army-fort-hood-gunman-custody-killed-injured-rampage/), Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2009/11/06/army-fort-hood-gunman-custody-killed-injured-rampage/)).

Fox News, interestingly enough had already posted a justification for his action on the very fist paragraph, unlike ABC, which is still further down below.

Also note that Fox News also has a quote from CAIR with them condemning the acts of this individual and that they don't see themselves in this guy.

Now take the nutjob from Norway, if we should take everything he says seriously, then by that token, the Call of Duty games should also be put under the same scrutinity because he also says that he's used them as a simulator to carry out his plans... right?

His own manifesto which addresses his views on christianity are mindboggling... (http://www.christianpost.com/news/norway-shooting-horror-killers-manifesto-denies-true-faith-in-christ-52798/)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 05, 2011, 05:27:56 pm
If you do not want a generalized answer to your post then don't post in generalities. Your posts read like Nazi propaganda, hate to tell ya man. My country allows for freedom of religion; no idea where you're from, but that's how it works where I live. What's done in Saudi Arabia and who they allow to worship there has nothing to do with my country or the Muslims in my country.
I do not want a generalised answer? And I thought some of the posts I made were rather extensive. Also since when was the assertion that others should mind their own business (ideologically) considered 'Nazi propaganda' ?

I do have issues with American-style society being forced on me. I do not believe in multi-national or multi-religious (in a far-reaching consideration) states. Though you also seem fine with the prospect of Saudi Arabia having the same attitude?

There is a reason no one outside of fake states such as Kosovo like American attitudes concerning foreign policy.

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They probably would, LOL, but that has nothing to do with this topic. I do always find it funny though how quickly the Arab League for example demanded our help in Libya despite their supposed "hatred" of our military. France is the same way. They begged for our help in that conflict too. I certainly don't support all the foreign policy decisions my country makes, but it's funny to me how many people seem to hate the American military until they find themselves in need of our help... :-X
Maybe you should realise the disconnect between common people and political elites. The pigs running the EU from France certainly love America, they have their structure based off of it. Paying some idle lip-service to the public in order to pretend they care for the country they rule does not mean much. Everyone in power knows it is untrue and just for show.

I do not know much about the Arab League, but they are probably in it simply for oil control. Gaddafii was a bit too blunt and self-serving for globalist freaks who get off on manipulating others. When a group of political elites care more about material wealth, they are more likely to cut off each other's heads at the first sign of self determinism to maintain the group.

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Call it what you will dude, lol.....politics, not religion, are at the heart of Al Qaida's actions as well, they merely use religion as a pretext for their actions in order to gain followers. The stash of weed and porn found at Bin Laden's compound doesn't demonstrate a man of as "pure faith" as how he claimed he was to his followers, that's for sure, lmao.
More like America uses religion to gain support for their fake terrorist network. I mentioned earlier how Al Qaeda was created by America to attack the Soviet Union. Now they are doing the same thing in Libya by arming their inbred, religious fanatics to attack the Libyan government. On state-controlled media they will call Al Qaeda 'rebels' or some other non-sense to fool the masses of morons.

And do not joke with that foolish Bin Laden story. Anyone with a grain of sense knows he died 5-10 years ago. I mean just look at the tapes they released with fake actors with black beards, as if that was him. And the body just washed away? Haha, yeah, sure it did. Sorry but I am not fooled by the childish, poorly-constructed propaganda that comes out of America. Only moronic Americans and their drooling puppets are.

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With the exception of Turkey, those are all 3rd world countries man.....not a great demonstration of the civilized Muslim world. The United Arab Emirates (Dubai) is an example of a peaceful and prosperous (mostly) Muslim nation.
It is not my fault that nearly every Muslim country happens to be uncivilised. Maybe note this pattern?

UAE is also barely anything; just a small speck of a country maintained by high commercial value. Wait for the wealth to dry up and it will fall apart rapidly.

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Okay...how about the Christians killed by Roman rule? How about the millions slaughtered by the Christians in the Crusades? Again, you act like these problems are exclusive to the Muslim faith. It's true that Islam is practiced (and used to govern) in countries that happen to be INCREDIBLY poor and backwards. Using those countries to brand all Muslims with a label is rather ignorant and I'm surprised to see someone with such eloquent posts making such a dumb generalization.
Why are you going on about Christian crusades now? Those were not long-lasting as the Muslim crusades were. And they were all in reaction, such as Moors invading Iberia, Turks invading Anatolia, and Muslims destroying Christian temples in Palestine. Again it is all 100% the fault of Muslims, even if the reaction was poor. Christians would not have their excuse to invade others if not for the fact that others were invaded by Muslims prior to every major situation.

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lmao to classify the Old Testament as "Jewish folk stories" is pretty ridiculous.....if one is a follower of  an Abrahamic religion, to ignore the Old Testament would be to disregard a huge chunk of those religions. Most people who consider themselves faithful to one of those religions believe that the stories are sacred, or, at the very least, work important to the themes of the religion. Since they deal with the alleged creation of humanity, I don't see at all how they're "specific to Jews."
They are Jewish folk stories to me. They were written by Jews, for Jews, and are about Jews. What is more ridiculous is how a Christian or Muslim believes it relates to them. It does not.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 06, 2011, 03:49:07 am
Well, if you guys want to read a little more stuff indepth about the various beliefs, here's a few informative links on Christianity (http://christianity.about.com/) and Islam (http://islam.about.com/).

There's also a fascinating insight here on the many myths about the Middle Ages. (http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/medmyths.html)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 06, 2011, 07:46:19 am
WAFFLE: Unacceptable post. I'll be speaking with Sharky, but in the meantime you're getting a warning.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on August 06, 2011, 07:17:54 pm
WAFFLE: Unacceptable post. I'll be speaking with Sharky, but in the meantime you're getting a warning.

Did the unacceptable post get removed?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 06, 2011, 08:23:52 pm
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I do not want a generalised answer? And I thought some of the posts I made were rather extensive. Also since when was the assertion that others should mind their own business (ideologically) considered 'Nazi propaganda' ?

I do have issues with American-style society being forced on me. I do not believe in multi-national or multi-religious (in a far-reaching consideration) states. Though you also seem fine with the prospect of Saudi Arabia having the same attitude?

There is a reason no one outside of fake states such as Kosovo like American attitudes concerning foreign policy.

Your argument is that Muslims in free countries don't deserve religious freedom because in oppressed countries like Saudi Arabia, Muslim governments don't grant religious freedom to non-Muslims? Is that your argument? Because that's the argument I'm getting from your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. But if that's what you're arguing, it's pretty ignorant. Again, an over-controlling religious dictatorship (basically) in a poor country has no bearing on moderate, free Muslims elsewhere.

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And do not joke with that foolish Bin Laden story. Anyone with a grain of sense knows he died 5-10 years ago. I mean just look at the tapes they released with fake actors with black beards, as if that was him. And the body just washed away? Haha, yeah, sure it did. Sorry but I am not fooled by the childish, poorly-constructed propaganda that comes out of America. Only moronic Americans and their drooling puppets are.

Whoo boy, okay, you're one of those. Alright, never mind dude.....I doubt this is even worth the effort.

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It is not my fault that nearly every Muslim country happens to be uncivilised. Maybe note this pattern?

That's because many are located in the Middle East and Africa, 2 very unstable areas.

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They are Jewish folk stories to me. They were written by Jews, for Jews, and are about Jews. What is more ridiculous is how a Christian or Muslim believes it relates to them. It does not.

Those stories are about the birth of humanity, if you're a believer in the teachings of these faiths you believe this. That relates to more than just Jews.

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again it is all 100% the fault of Muslims, even if the reaction was poor.

Again, a very general statement that doesn't take into account countless facts. Hate to tell you man but it's INCREDIBLY rare to find a war in which the fault lies 100% with a single side. In fact, I'd say it's impossible.


Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 07, 2011, 06:37:34 am
Hence why I wanted people to read this list about myths about Islam (http://islam.about.com/od/commonmisconceptions/tp/myths.htm).

Because, as nSega has touched upon and here's what I'm getting at, many conflicts, especially in ancient times, had very little to do with beliefs, many of the wars are motivated by warfare over resources, but in those times, it's understandable in their context, to fight over resources, because something as trade and the marketplace was largely uncommon in tribal societies, therefore warfare was common.

But touching upon, resources, many African countries are in this kind of state of perpetual misery not because of western indifference, but because of the political climate in many of these countries.

Even if they had enough resources as it, it will all go to waste. Take Venezuela, sitting on vast amounts of oil and the country is slowly going to Hell, regardless of how many BS statistics they can pull out of their hats saying that this kind of model makes people's lives that much better.

If it wasn't for charities and the Church that send aid and missionaries, many african villages these people would have absolutely nothing...
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 07, 2011, 09:48:33 am
^Oh, I forgot to respond to your previous post:

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Now take the nutjob from Norway, if we should take everything he says seriously, then by that token, the Call of Duty games should also be put under the same scrutinity because he also says that he's used them as a simulator to carry out his plans... right?

Not saying we should take his ideas seriously, but to deny that this religious fanatic is a "Christian" just makes no sense to me. It's like denying that the 9/11 terrorists are Muslim. How he interprets (or misinterprets) the teachings of his religion has nothing to do with whether or not he practices it. Clearly he is a believer in Christianity, and to argue this is to distract from the issue. Again, this man killed many people. To spend even a minute arguing about whether he's "really Christian" or not is dumb. None of us are judging the Christian religion, none of us are bashing it, but the simple fact is; the man was a Christian. Defensive Christians need to move past that and focus on the real issue at hand.

(and off-topic, but Jon Stewart, despite his comedic delivery, is much more factual and more intelligent than most of the pundits you see on the news channels, hate to tell ya man)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 07, 2011, 02:59:24 pm
Back on track to the Norway discussion, for the sake of the argument let's say that this non-practicing Christian(or at least culturally-influenced by Christian ideology), then what is the real issue?

What were the real circumstances behind this? What was the motivation? And how it has gotten to this point?

It's been nearly two weeks since the horrific massacre, and we still haven't gone beyond this point...

Here's a real pundit from Spiked Online explaining it (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10923/) from a completely dettached situation:
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Yet this simplistic categorisation of contemporary terror assaults - where violent outbursts get slotted into files marked ‘Radical Islamist Fury’ or ‘Right-Wing Anger’ - makes too fine a distinction between acts that are actually very similar. Just because something like 7/7 in London was executed by men with dark hair and brown skin who claimed to be fighting on behalf of the Muslim ummah, while the bombing of Oslo and massacre on Utoya were carried out by a white guy who claimed to be protecting European Christian culture, that doesn’t mean these are diametrically different actions. What they have in common is far more important than what separates them. And, stripped of their pseudo-political garb, what unites today’s various terror tantrums, what makes these kind of people possible in the first place, is a very powerful culture of estrangement in modern society.

In much of the media, particularly amongst the respectable broadsheet press, there was a palpable sense of relief when it was revealed that the alleged killer is white with far-right tendencies. This means he is the kind of person we can unambiguously hate. Where Islamist terror attacks, from 9/11 to 7/7, induce in some liberal observers torn and tortured feelings, where they want to condemn the violence but also feel the need to explain it as a natural reaction to evil Western foreign policy, Anders Behring Breivik is someone they can despise in an uncomplicated way.

(Off-topic again: Jon Stewart reads a script and has a crowd that will cheer and laugh at anything he says.)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 07, 2011, 08:54:03 pm
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Back on track to the Norway discussion, for the sake of the argument let's say that this non-practicing Christian(or at least culturally-influenced by Christian ideology), then what is the real issue?

The issue is that Christians are being overly-defensive. Nobody is saying "OMG CHRISTIANITY INSPIRES KILLERS!" yet some Christians in the media are acting like it and are attempting to brush off the guy's faith. Look, he was Christian, there are no two ways around it, lol. There's no issue.


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Where Islamist terror attacks, from 9/11 to 7/7, induce in some liberal observers torn and tortured feelings, where they want to condemn the violence but also feel the need to explain it as a natural reaction to evil Western foreign policy, Anders Behring Breivik is someone they can despise in an uncomplicated way.

See, I'm not sure what world this guy's living in; if he thinks it's been easy to be a Muslim in a post-9/11 America, he's crazy! (And I'm not even Muslim.) Of course people condemn and attack Muslims for the actions of the terrorists and corrupt rulers, we're seeing Waffle do it in this very thread!

Anyway, though the man's motivations and actions may not be immediately clear, the fact that he wrote a thousand page+ Christian manifesto and the fact that he seemed to hold manic anti-Islamic views is *at least* worth mentioning......wouldn't you agree? Why are Christians in the media getting angry that it's being mentioned? They're just coming off as ridiculous, imo.

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(Off-topic again: Jon Stewart reads a script and has a crowd that will cheer and laugh at anything he says.)

A script that he and his writers write......and yes people cheer and laugh at what he says.....but listen to what he says! More often than not, he speaks the truth. How is this any different from Bill O'Reilly or other news correspondents? It's all the same thing, man. 


A big problem in today's media is the issue of lack of original reporting. Original reporting is expensive, and more and more often now, we're seeing news media simply acquire this reporting secondhand and have pundits on the show to argue back and forth on it. That's no different from the Daily Show...the only difference is the delivery of the news.

Pundits arguing back and forth is not news, and certainly no more trustworthy than Jon Stewart.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 08, 2011, 01:22:49 am
Did the unacceptable post get removed?
I merely pointed out that a lot of priests, in addition to Muhammad, enjoy molesting children. I am not sure how Barry thinks it is untrue, here is a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country)

As for Muhammed:
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Book 008, Number 3310:

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310 (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310)

Considering his actions, Comrade Barry seems to be quite the defender of child molestation. Maybe he should join the EU Thought Police or a child raping labour party. Being a priest or an imam works too. Just so many opportunities!
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 08, 2011, 01:41:39 am
Your argument is that Muslims in free countries don't deserve religious freedom because in oppressed countries like Saudi Arabia, Muslim governments don't grant religious freedom to non-Muslims? Is that your argument? Because that's the argument I'm getting from your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. But if that's what you're arguing, it's pretty ignorant. Again, an over-controlling religious dictatorship (basically) in a poor country has no bearing on moderate, free Muslims elsewhere.
Saudi Arabia is not a poor, third-world country, and it is directly supported and loved by Americans and their underlings. Many of the Mosques in European countries are directly funded and supported with education material from Saudi Arabia. It is also built on Muhammad (thus Islam)'s ideals - just as the Vatican represents Western European Christianity.

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Whoo boy, okay, you're one of those. Alright, never mind dude.....I doubt this is even worth the effort.
What are 'those' ? People who do not follow the filth and lies coming from America?

America is the biggest terrorist state and threat to the world, not some fake boogie man who lives in caves.

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That's because many are located in the Middle East and Africa, 2 very unstable areas.
And I suppose outside of these areas, Muslims are fine to live around? That is why in Scandinavia, for example, natives have to dye their hair black to avoid being attacked by Muslims, and Jews and Christians have to hide their identity or be attacked in the streets.

Everywhere Muslims go, they form ghettos around Mosques and effectively invade the countries they have migrated to. Just search European 'no-go areas', France is full of them.

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Those stories are about the birth of humanity, if you're a believer in the teachings of these faiths you believe this. That relates to more than just Jews.
It seems more like the birth of Jews. Obviously it makes no sense that humanity was created that way, there are too many diverse types of people. Plus they go beyond just Adam and Eve. The rest seem entirely Jewish to me.

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Again, a very general statement that doesn't take into account countless facts. Hate to tell you man but it's INCREDIBLY rare to find a war in which the fault lies 100% with a single side. In fact, I'd say it's impossible.
How is it the fault of a Christian that Turks attacked Christian pilgrims in Anatolia? That Moors invaded Iberia? That the temple of Jesus Christ's tomb in Palestine was destroyed by the Islamic government there at the time?

Seriously, answer these questions. I want to know how Muslims are not purely at fault. Then tell me how Christians would have had the excuse to convince people to go on holy wars to restore these areas otherwise.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Shigs on August 08, 2011, 03:48:55 am

What are 'those' ? People who do not follow the filth and lies coming from America?

America is the biggest terrorist state and threat to the world, not some fake boogie man who lives in caves.
 

Good God, you sound more and more like some evil supervillain from some faraway land.  Pray tell, how is my country some "evil terrorist state"?

In most Muslim terrorist attacks, the person who had done the attacking is usually defined as a "Muslim Extremist". Why can't this Christian terrorist who made a 1,000 page manifesto be labeled under "Christian Extremist"? I mean, there's TONS of variations of Christians. Most are the go to church on Sunday and that's about it, to Jesus Camp, to those "GOD HATES FAGS" guys. Being Muslim does not automatically make you some evil no more than a Christian is. It depends on how far some twist the religious teaching to meet thier own ideals.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on August 08, 2011, 04:40:01 am
Good God, you sound more and more like some evil supervillain from some faraway land.  Pray tell, how is my country some "evil terrorist state"?

Well, to be fair the US has done some fucked up shit, that is undeniable. Waffle is no doubt over-exaggerating, but we have done some fucked up shit that could be classified as terrorism, especially if we take the term by its' literal dictionary definition.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 08, 2011, 04:43:02 am
Good God, you sound more and more like some evil supervillain from some faraway land.  Pray tell, how is my country some "evil terrorist state"?
Because America has its parasitical tentacles over every inch of the globe with no care for the destruction they cause?

Just to think of some random examples: on-going mass murders in Yemen and Pakistan from 'drone attacks', the concentration camp for political enemies in Cuba, air raids in Libya, arming every Islamic nutcase with a pick-up truck in Libya, providing free arms and conducting the sale of arms to other nations when they know the intent is for attacking civilians (Israel is the easiest example), starving over 1 million Iraqi children to death, supporting Communist terrorists in Europe (Germany [killed 2.5 million children and women after WW2], Serbia), attacking Serbia and creating the Islamic state of Kosovo, stamping military bases all over the world, faking attacks and threats by others then invading them (Vietnam, Iraq), destroying the natural environments of other countries (America purposely deforested as much of Germany and Vietnam as they could, pure evil), et cetera.

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In most Muslim terrorist attacks, the person who had done the attacking is usually defined as a "Muslim Extremist". Why can't this Christian terrorist who made a 1,000 page manifesto be labeled under "Christian Extremist"? I mean, there's TONS of variations of Christians. Most are the go to church on Sunday and that's about it, to Jesus Camp, to those "GOD HATES FAGS" guys. Being Muslim does not automatically make you some evil no more than a Christian is. It depends on how far some twist the religious teaching to meet thier own ideals.
I am not sure if this is in response to me? If you want to call him a Christian terrorist or extremist, go ahead. The same applies if you want to say Christians are equal to Muslims. I dislike Muslims more than Christians, but I still dislike Christians. It makes me quite happy to see them at each other's throats. Nothing is more amusing than seeing your enemies fighting each other.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 08, 2011, 04:46:18 am
@-nSega54-

OK, I get it. But now what? Are going to discuss something other than the individual's religion or are we just going to perpetually repeat "Christian fundamentalist" as if his belief system was the cause for the mass shooting?

And speaking of blaming Muslims for wrongdoing, here's the text from who is considered to be the Primum Movens of Islamophobia in America (http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/gw-bush-9-11.htm):
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Al-Qaida is to terror what the Mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money. Its goal is remaking the world and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics; a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam.

It is worth noting that extremists groups such as Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah have murdered far more muslims than actually fighting against the evil west that they despite so much.

The same with the Norway nutjob who claims to be a white knight for Christianity even though most of his victims do not match in any way, shape or form the profile of what he was going for.

So here's an idea, how about we drop the labels, stop splitting these actions into very specific files and treat them as they are: terrorists and madmen.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 08, 2011, 04:49:13 am
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm)

Here is an interesting website about Islam, to counter what Max Cady posts.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on August 08, 2011, 05:04:52 am
I think the issue with religion and discussion of religion is that people that have believes in such things aren't open to talk about facts. They are too busy ignoring facts and believing stories that people have been telling for thousands of years.

I believe that part of Religion becomes culture and celebrating aspects of it is fine. Christmas, Easter etc. I don't mind this. I do mind the people that think they need to kill 90 innocent people on an island to achieve some religious gain or blow themselves up due to some God.

The facts are that religions hardly make sense. You can hate on evolution and say it doesn't exist, but that is ignorant. There is far too much prove of existence of evolution to ignore it. To say no is very stupid.

As for 'doesn't mean there isn't a creator'. Well, since most Christians and other religious groups like to find holes in other people's theories, especially evolution. Explain this. If 'coming form nothing' is a joke, where did God come from? In the end its always going to be from nothing.

We as a human civilization have to move on, find answers. Not believe what some book says is right. If we still did this, we would be in caves, telling our children how the world is flat and how God controls the rain.

Imagine all the things we have disprove that the church used to believe, events that happen that are now explained. Do you think the people that wrote the bible actually knew the truth or that they tried to explain what they couldn't grasp?

Think about it. This world isn't created for us. We adapted to it by course of evolution. If this world is perfect for us, explain that to the starving kids in the world.
True, while i don't support any religion, its hard not to get swayed by the faith aspect of it especially in a time of a disaster. It was humbling to experience that during my time in tokyo after the EQ where the strong cultural belif of ones country combines with the faith or faith(s) of that particular country and peoples determination to help their fellow countryman/woman. 
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 08, 2011, 12:07:58 pm
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Saudi Arabia is not a poor, third-world country, and it is directly supported and loved by Americans and their underlings. Many of the Mosques in European countries are directly funded and supported with education material from Saudi Arabia. It is also built on Muhammad (thus Islam)'s ideals - just as the Vatican represents Western European Christianity.

Saudi Arabia is not "poor", you're correct, but the vast majority of their money (90%) comes from their oil exports, and that's money that generally benefits the government directly. I wouldn't call the population rich by any means, though to be fair, the government is making efforts to expand privatized industry....right now they pretty much control it all.

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What are 'those' ? People who do not follow the filth and lies coming from America?

America is the biggest terrorist state and threat to the world, not some fake boogie man who lives in caves.

People who believe that the World Trade Center was not hit by an airplane and people who make ridiculous claims such as "Bin Laden has been dead for years."

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Everywhere Muslims go, they form ghettos around Mosques and effectively invade the countries they have migrated to. Just search European 'no-go areas', France is full of them.

That's because they are poor and mistreated by the system. It's similar to poor urban neighborhoods in the US; they're predominantly black because African Americans have suffered years of oppression and many are born into these ghettos into poor families with no hope of moving up. It's similar to the poor areas in Paris and other such places with Muslims. Again, this isn't a phenomenon unique to Muslims. It happens all over the world (often to non-whites predominantly) in ghetto areas.

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It seems more like the birth of Jews. Obviously it makes no sense that humanity was created that way, there are too many diverse types of people. Plus they go beyond just Adam and Eve. The rest seem entirely Jewish to me.

lmao dude if you read the stories, Adam and Eve weren't Jewish. They had no religion, they were just people who were meant to live in complete seclusion from the knowledge of the rest of the world any sort of conscience. Yeah in later stories the peoples' Jewish faith plays a part but you do realize that God in the Jewish faith and God in the Christian faith is the same entity, right? And that all the people who eventually founded Christianity were Jewish?

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Seriously, answer these questions. I want to know how Muslims are not purely at fault. Then tell me how Christians would have had the excuse to convince people to go on holy wars to restore these areas otherwise.

lol holy wars to "restore" these areas. A little off topic, but check out some African countries where Christian missionaries have invaded and forced their religion on the natives, they're not doing any better for it. Anyway, to deny Christian responsibility for the frigging CRUSADES is just insane.

Let's not forget the Christian explorers who massacred and enslaved countless Natives in America, Africa, and anywhere else they attempted to colonize. "They're not Christian? Fuck 'em!"

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Well, to be fair the US has done some fucked up shit, that is undeniable. Waffle is no doubt over-exaggerating, but we have done some fucked up shit that could be classified as terrorism, especially if we take the term by its' literal dictionary definition.

Oh dude don't encourage him. If the US ever develops a history similar to Germany's or Cambodia's then we'll talk. Since the US was founded the worst I can think of is the forced migration of the Natives, but that wasn't an all-out massacre. They weren't being stood up in front of pits that they dug and then gunned down. Read up on the Khmer Rouge or of course Hitler's regime to see what some "fucked up shit that can be classified as terrorism" is.

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Because America has its parasitical tentacles over every inch of the globe with no care for the destruction they cause?

Just to think of some random examples: on-going mass murders in Yemen and Pakistan from 'drone attacks', the concentration camp for political enemies in Cuba, air raids in Libya, arming every Islamic nutcase with a pick-up truck in Libya, providing free arms and conducting the sale of arms to other nations when they know the intent is for attacking civilians (Israel is the easiest example), starving over 1 million Iraqi children to death, supporting Communist terrorists in Europe (Germany [killed 2.5 million children and women after WW2], Serbia), attacking Serbia and creating the Islamic state of Kosovo, stamping military bases all over the world, faking attacks and threats by others then invading them (Vietnam, Iraq), destroying the natural environments of other countries (America purposely deforested as much of Germany and Vietnam as they could, pure evil), et cetera.

People demand our help, as I told Sharky. America did not want to enter Libya, we were pressured by Europe to do so and eventually gave in. If people don't want our help they should stop asking for it. Israel does not make it their mission to attack civilians, unlike the Palestinian extremists who you seem to be defending.

Hint to Palestinians; don't suicide-bomb CIVILIANS in a country in mass numbers and expect NO retaliation from that country. (Durrrrr.)

*It's so incredibly stupid to watch the Palestinians attempt to gain back the parts of Israel that they've lost by SUICIDE bombing Israel civilians. Not at all a great strategy to gain world sympathy except from....well,....an INCREDIBLY, erm, select few.*

Saying America faked 9/11 is hilarious.

Destroying countries we're at war with; Well, yeah, WE'RE AT WAR. Deforesting Vietnam was believed to be necessary because American troops were being ambushed and attacked constantly in the forests by the enemy. Nowadays such action wouldn't likely be taken but back then people didn't care about shit like that. Nobody cared about the environment at all before the 1970s. Unfortunate but true. 

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OK, I get it. But now what? Are going to discuss something other than the individual's religion or are we just going to perpetually repeat "Christian fundamentalist" as if his belief system was the cause for the mass shooting?

Well yeah, lol, but I don't think a lot of people are even saying that. I think religion's coming up more because Christians are putting it in the spotlight by denying it than anything else, tbh. And yeah there's no sense on dwelling on this, of course. There are psychos in every religion.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 09, 2011, 07:22:49 am
People who believe that the World Trade Center was not hit by an airplane and people who make ridiculous claims such as "Bin Laden has been dead for years."
They could still have staged it by allowing it to occur, or facilitated the destruction. Pearl Harbour, for instance, was allowed to happen, despite being fully done by Japan. 9/11 could be the same thing.

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That's because they are poor and mistreated by the system. It's similar to poor urban neighborhoods in the US; they're predominantly black because African Americans have suffered years of oppression and many are born into these ghettos into poor families with no hope of moving up. It's similar to the poor areas in Paris and other such places with Muslims. Again, this isn't a phenomenon unique to Muslims. It happens all over the world to non-whites of all types.
No it is not similar to American ghettos. These are people who immigrated to France based on their own free will with the purpose of expanding the economy. Instead they created secluded ghettos of violence, essentially invading segments of the country where others cannot even visit unless they are Muslims. Over half of all Imams in France are on welfare even. They are human parasites and a threat to everyone different from themselves.

And do not start the anti-white racism. White people are the least racist people to the point of stupidity. The African immigrants in France are far more racist. A game they play is to attack French girls then upload videos of it to YouTube, calling it 'happy slapping' - essentially it is beating women for a joke due to them being another race. They also do it to Chinese immigrants in France.

Even right now immigrants are rioting, burning, and looting en masse in London and the Let's Not Hurt Anyone's Feelings Police Brigade are too incompetent to do anything about it. Though this might be the breaking-point of these self-destructive views.

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lmao dude if you read the stories, Adam and Eve weren't Jewish. They had no religion, they were just people who were meant to live in complete seclusion from the knowledge of the rest of the world any sort of conscience. Yeah in later stories the peoples' Jewish faith plays a part but you do realize that God in the Jewish faith and God in the Christian faith is the same entity, right? And that all the people who eventually founded Christianity were Jewish?
Some do not consider Jesus Jewish as his father was a Roman soldier, though a lot of people like to think god is Jesus' father (which he obviously is not...).  I also think Christians believe that Jews worship a false god.

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lol holy wars to "restore" these areas. A little off topic, but check out some African countries where Christian missionaries have invaded and forced their religion on the natives, they're not doing any better for it. Anyway, to deny Christian responsibility for the frigging CRUSADES is just insane.
That is not a little off topic, it is entirely off topic. It answers nothing.

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Let's not forget the Christian explorers who massacred and enslaved countless Natives in America, Africa, and anywhere else they attempted to colonize. "They're not Christian? Fuck 'em!"
What is your point? I am not even trying to defend Christians. Get out of Jon Stewart's Fox News Battle Mode.

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Oh dude don't encourage him. If the US ever develops a history similar to Germany's or Cambodia's then we'll talk. Since the US was founded the worst I can think of is the forced migration of the Natives, but that wasn't an all-out massacre. They weren't being stood up in front of pits that they dug and then gunned down. Read up on the Khmer Rouge or of course Hitler's regime to see what some "fucked up shit that can be classified as terrorism" is.
So let us just ignore all the examples I provided. People being tortured in an American concentration camp right now is not terrorism. We can just blame it on Germany and Cambodia.

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Hint to Palestinians; don't suicide-bomb CIVILIANS in a country in mass numbers and expect NO retaliation from that country. (Durrrrr.)
That is easier to say when Israel gets free American weapons and they get nothing. How else are they supposed to fight back? They usually are attacking 'settler colonies' to deter more Israeli immigrants. It is of course not the fault of the settlers, but logically it makes sense to target these as they are the easiest targets and it gets the point across.

And for an example of Israeli terrorism: they like to fly their fighter jets over Palestinian homes repeatedly for days just to torture them with intensive vibrations and noise. It is impossible for anyone to even sleep in these conditions. It does not achieve anything, it is purely to terrorise people, which is terrorism.

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Saying America faked 9/11 is hilarious.
Cool because I never stated that. I never even mentioned Afghanistan in that list.

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Destroying countries we're at war with; Well, yeah, WE'RE AT WAR. Deforesting Vietnam was believed to be necessary because American troops were being ambushed and attacked constantly in the forests by the enemy. Nowadays such action wouldn't likely be taken but back then people didn't care about shit like that. Nobody cared about the environment at all before the 1970s. Unfortunate but true.
You are at war with the natural environment? I thought it would be the ideology of the people in authority. This is why it is so easy to hate Americans. Even if you are uninvolved in their conflict, they end up attacking you and devastating the part of the world you live in. As I stated earlier, it is nothing other than pure evil. And no, not everyone thinks like an American concerning environmentalism. National parks starting appearing in the 1800s, and modern environmentalism was strong in Europe since the 1930s - in many areas much stronger than today.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 09, 2011, 12:31:38 pm
Alright these posts are getting a bit long at this point, I'm going to try to scale mine back with the next couple posts or so.

They could still have staged it by allowing it to occur, or facilitated the destruction. Pearl Harbour, for instance, was allowed to happen, despite being fully done by Japan. 9/11 could be the same thing.

Pearl Harbor being "allowed to happen" is debatable. There is evidence of course to suggest that the US may have known some facts in advance, yes, but the extent of the information known is subject for debate. If the US knows of an "impending attack" and nothing else, there isn't anything that can really be done.

9/11 is the same way.....first of all, it was certainly not "allowed" to happen. Did the US know that some terrorists were in our country? Yeah. They could have even known of an impending plot on 9/11 (again, debatable) but that's not enough information to go by to do anything. The magnitude of the attacks and the form they took was something completely unexpected and, well, new. Hijacking commercial airliners and using them as missiles was a plot that there's been little precedent for. Hijackings have almost never been suicide missions.  If the US expected a massive terrorist plot the scale of 9/11 on that day, would they have allowed Bush to go to his scheduled reading session with the kindergardeners in that Florida school? If you were the President and knew of an impending terrorist attack, reading to kids would probably be the last thing on your mind. But there he was, sitting, stammering, reading books to kids in that Florida classroom (because he was too much of a pussy to do anything else and was clearly caught totally off guard by the attack) when our country was experiencing the greatest attack ever on its home soil.

The one thing conspiracy theorists (And there are MANY of them in America; as much as 40% of our population believe 9/11 was either staged or our government was complicit) never seem to want to take into account is coincidence....there IS such thing as coincidence. You can go back and analyze little things and make certain leaps, but some things just can't be expected or prepared for....and I believe that 9/11 was one of those things. Nowadays I think it's a different story, but back then, we were just stupidly unprepared for an attack.


I'll tell you this. We had a surplus when Bill Clinton left office. 9/11 happened, and we are still facing the economic effects from it and from our actions taken in response to it.....what is it, a 10 trillion dollar debt? Some ridiculously high number? Dude no country wishes that upon itself, it's ridiculous to think that way.


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No it is not similar to American ghettos. These are people who immigrated to France based on their own free will with the purpose of expanding the economy. Instead they created secluded ghettos of violence, essentially invading segments of the country where others cannot even visit unless they are Muslims. Over half of all Imams in France are on welfare even. They are human parasites and a threat to everyone different from themselves.

Well I won't pretend to be knowledgeable on European ghettos. Riots in Europe on the part of immigrants are nothing new, France dealt with it a couple years back as well. Again, it's important to consider WHY these people are rioting when trying to understand exactly who is at fault, and you'd see that many factors are at play. I'm not defending rioters, but again, to say that the government has no responsibility AT ALL is to ignore a situation that's gone on for years.

England, I have no idea about, I don't know their situation or any of that stuff, so I won't comment. I do find it funny that you're bashing these people for rioting to get their point across yet you support suicide bombers in Palestine.

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And do not start the anti-white racism. White people are the least racist people to the point of stupidity. The African immigrants in France are far more racist. A game they play is to attack French girls then upload videos of it to YouTube, calling it 'happy slapping' - essentially it is beating women for a joke due to them being another race. They also do it to Chinese immigrants in France.

And there's a history of white people killing black people by hanging them from trees just for fun.



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Some do not consider Jesus Jewish as his father was a Roman soldier, though a lot of people like to think god is Jesus' father (which he obviously is not...).  I also think Christians believe that Jews worship a false god.

It's the same God. Literally, the same God. Christians believe that the God from the Old Testament stories fathered their messiah. Jews do not believe that Christ is the messiah. That's the key difference in the religions. And it's a key difference, but the God they worship is the same. Christians simply worship this god through a messiah whereas Jews do not.

I don't doubt that some Christians feel that Jews worship a "false god" but outside of their obvious total ignorance of both their and the Jewish faith, I have no clue whatsoever how they came to that conclusion.

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What is your point? I am not even trying to defend Christians. Get out of Jon Stewart's Fox News Battle Mode.

What do you mean you're not trying to defend Christians? According to you, they're completely and totally innocent and free of blame in every single conflict they've ever been in.

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So let us just ignore all the examples I provided. People being tortured in an American concentration camp right now is not terrorism. We can just blame it on Germany and Cambodia.

Civilians are being abducted and gassed to death in American concentration camps? Where?

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That is easier to say when Israel gets free American weapons and they get nothing. How else are they supposed to fight back? They usually are attacking 'settler colonies' to deter more Israeli immigrants. It is of course not the fault of the settlers, but logically it makes sense to target these as they are the easiest targets and it gets the point across.

Dude they are not just attacking "settler colonies" they've blown up busses, cafes, etc. in major Israeli cities. And the only point I see Palestinians getting across by electing a terrorist regime and suicide bombing civilians, including children, is that these people would be no allies to the free world and do not deserve their own country. Certainly not the message they're intending to get across, but terrorism is never a good way to achieve your goals.

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And for an example of Israeli terrorism: they like to fly their fighter jets over Palestinian homes repeatedly for days just to torture them with intensive vibrations and noise. It is impossible for anyone to even sleep in these conditions. It does not achieve anything, it is purely to terrorise people, which is terrorism.

I'm actually not aware of this, but this wouldn't be completely uncommon. South Korea sets up giant speakers at their border with North Korea and blares Christmas music into North Korea at Christmas time. (N. Korea is an atheist nation.) They also blare anti-communist propaganda, among other things. It's not a problem unique to Israel, if that's really the case.

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Cool because I never stated that. I never even mentioned Afghanistan in that list.

What do you mean you never said that? You said Bin Laden was dead before 9/11 even happened, and you said this;

" faking attacks and threats by others then invading them (Vietnam, Iraq), "

Faking what attacks?

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You are at war with the natural environment? I thought it would be the ideology of the people in authority. This is why it is so easy to hate Americans. Even if you are uninvolved in their conflict, they end up attacking you and devastating the part of the world you live in. As I stated earlier, it is nothing other than pure evil. And no, not everyone thinks like an American concerning environmentalism. National parks starting appearing in the 1800s, and modern environmentalism was strong in Europe since the 1930s - in many areas much stronger than today.

No, you are at war with the North Vietnamese, who are using the cover of the forests to target and wipe out American soldiers. Again, I'm not defending the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, but its use was not "for fun," but an attempt to make it easier for our soldiers to fight the enemy.

Regarding the environment, what a surprise; you think that again, America is entirely at fault for every single one of the world's issues. Dude it took Europe years to even begin using unleaded fuel while it was law in America long before then. Please don't act like other countries are angels in this, all of the free world is responsible for the state our planet is currently in. And sure there have been grassroots movements in the past to stop climate change and fix the environment but generally, humans as a people don't act until shit goes down, and the energy crisis of the 70s and the new knowledge that our ozone layer is vanishing are what it took, sadly, for this to become a mainstream issue. 
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 09, 2011, 05:55:49 pm
@nSega

Denial is one thing, debating over the accuracy of a statement is something else entirely.

Speaking of which, do psychopaths or simply put, evil men, even require a belief system to begin with?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on August 10, 2011, 12:17:14 am
*sigh* As if we needed anymore "Christians" saying these kind of things:

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2463189/Funnyjunkers+do+wat+you+do+best+please/ (http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2463189/Funnyjunkers+do+wat+you+do+best+please/)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 10, 2011, 10:43:41 am
(http://i52.tinypic.com/b8p6hj.jpg)
I guess my question just answered itself. Take this particular so-called atheist advocate group (http://blog.heritage.org/2011/08/02/atheists-sue-to-remove-world-trade-center-cross-from-911-museum-and-memorial/) who wants to ban religious symbols and iconography from public spaces, simply because it offends them.

And as it stands, I'll also apply the same criteria: I very much doubt this group speaks for atheists in general. They might not have an established belief system (well they do, they just call it something else), they are tolerant and respectfull, they wouldn't stoop to something this petty.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Emmett The Crab on August 10, 2011, 10:49:03 am
(http://i52.tinypic.com/b8p6hj.jpg)
I guess my question just answered itself. Take this particular so-called atheist advocate group (http://blog.heritage.org/2011/08/02/atheists-sue-to-remove-world-trade-center-cross-from-911-museum-and-memorial/) who wants to ban religious symbols and iconography from public spaces, simply because it offends them.



And as it stands, I'll also apply the same criteria: I very much doubt this group speaks for atheists in general. They might not have an established belief system (well they do, they just call it something else), they are tolerant and respectfull, they wouldn't stoop to something this petty.

It's a shame that news organizations give this kind of crap media attention, Like Fox News and their "War on Christmas".  if you look hard enough you will find fringe groups demanding anything you can think of.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on August 10, 2011, 11:53:40 am
I thought Christianity was a religion that promoted tolerance?
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Ben on August 10, 2011, 03:19:17 pm
@nSega

Denial is one thing, debating over the accuracy of a statement is something else entirely.

I suppose. To me though it just sorta reminds me of the Sarah Palin thing, where after Giffords was shot, she made a huge speech basically defending herself and "tough political campaigns" and saying that they didn't lead to the shooting...to which I think people were like "Ugh. We know, Sarah Palin. You didn't cause the shooting, just shut up for a minute."

I feel like this is the same thing. People are mourning the victims and then there's this whole other thing going on where people are discussing religion, and I think that by denying (which is to make a big deal of) his religious beliefs, they're just drawing more attention to them when I don't think most people really care.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 10, 2011, 06:09:37 pm
That's just it really... If he has religious beliefs of any kind, he certainly didn't practice them or he completely twisted their meaning in order to make them something that they are not.

This feels seems so similar to how the National Socialists pre-WW2, bastardized the German Catholic Church and it's teachings.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on August 10, 2011, 07:56:58 pm
Atheist trying to take down a cross... reminds me of when Christians tried to take down the mosque. Well, if they can't have a mosque a few blocks away, why would Christians be allowed to have a cross ON A FEDERAL building?

The atheist are in the right. Christians need to stop crying and move on. If they want their cross, stop bitching about other religions.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 12, 2011, 06:06:34 am
There are a ton of mosques in New York City, so it would leave me to beleive that the discussion about a Mosque on Ground Zero has nothing to do with religious issues.

That fringe group's whole argument about the cross is, supossedly, visually offensive to any non-religious folks. Good luck trying to use that as a constitucional argument.

Add also to the fact that a cross is not necessarily a religious symbol.

Update: Finally, to assume that any non-religious folk is offended just by the display of a symbol is a bit of a strech.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on August 12, 2011, 08:33:57 am
cady are you kidding? The militant aeshitiests in england are offended by anything to do with the cross and christianity(as that seems to be the main religon those guys are fond of picking on.)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on August 15, 2011, 06:46:01 pm
I don't think anyone here is actually picking on a any religion, I think the only one that was talking crap was Kogen and that was about Muslims.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: tarpmortar on August 15, 2011, 10:18:18 pm
I don't think anyone here is actually picking on a any religion, I think the only one that was talking crap was Kogen and that was about Muslims.

Isn't it interesting that people get so hot and bothered over something that likely doesn't exist? I would say I am an atheist, or a Confucian, but Confucianism is a philosophy to meet certain standards and not really a religion as there are no deities you are asked to believe in. Anyways I couldn't give two shits if somebody is religious, I let little kids believe in Santa Clause so why not adults? People make these arguments about religion causing war or violence, those arguments may carry some weight, but in the modern era I think less so than in the past.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Shigs on August 16, 2011, 12:02:47 am
By chance, which name is Kogen going under now? I have a clue who, but want to make sure.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on August 16, 2011, 01:14:40 am
Waffles but he is now banned i'm sure.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: ROJM on August 16, 2011, 05:40:45 am
I don't think anyone here is actually picking on a any religion, I think the only one that was talking crap was Kogen and that was about Muslims.
What else is new.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 16, 2011, 05:53:19 am
@George

No, I think ROJM was just saying that there are a few fringe non-religious groups that seem to throw a hissy fit.  Fortunately, it never goes beyond that.

Something like that happened about a year ago when Pope Benedict paid a visit to England.

The conversation here on our message board has been level-headed, for the most part and there's a lot more to talk about then something like politics.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: George on August 16, 2011, 06:20:54 am
You mean when this happened?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBHqGHxBJRs#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBHqGHxBJRs#ws)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Sharky on August 16, 2011, 10:25:13 am
^The guys a genius, he can come across as a bit of a douche at times I find, but theres no arguing that he knows his shit and he know how to prove it.

His argument can pretty much go for any religion.



This was good too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhEeI3K7GU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhEeI3K7GU#)
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: Waffle on August 16, 2011, 10:34:31 am
MEMBER WAS BANNED DUE TO NOW LISTENING TO WARNINGS WE HAVE GIVEN HIM 10X. NO ONE HERE IS PLAYING "FAVORITES" IN RELIGION. IF YOU HAVE TO INSULT A GROUP OF PEOPLE, YOU WILL BE BANNED. DON'T LIKE IT? DON'T VISIT.
Title: Re: Adam and Eve...
Post by: max_cady on August 16, 2011, 11:33:14 am
Dr. Richard Dawkins might be convincing on just a scientific POV, but on everything else, forget it.