Author Topic: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!  (Read 48970 times)

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2015, 03:42:33 pm »
You just answered why we don't think SEGA needs a Dreamcast 2. They have the money to support themselves. They do not need to spend all this money in development of another home console.

And think about it, a Dreamcast HD or Dreamcast 2 doesn't just happen overnight. There would be an insane amount of paperwork, building up of resources SEGA dissolved in 2001, rights issues with games, and then you have the whole thing of SEGA having to make their own online ecosystem to sell the games (assuming they go digital). And if the thing just uses the discs people already own... again, what is the point? The original Dreamcast already exists with VGA output and can play the entire library.

Offline Tad

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2015, 03:52:53 pm »
Yes they are.

Valve can do it. Ouya can and even SNK, but not Sega?


Why do people look at Sega as this small,worthless company
with no money when they have $12 billion in Cash Flow?

There's a huge difference between this and what those companies did. Valve already had the library sitting there and the Ouya was android based and easily ported. I know nothing of the SNK, so can't comment.

However, as Barry said, creating a Dreamcast 2 would require an awful lot of work before even getting to production. It simply wouldn't be worth it. If Sega wanted to create their own store like Steam and a controller, I'd be happy mind :)

Offline JRcade19

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2015, 04:00:08 pm »
Valve, Ouya and SNK worked using completely industry standard parts, readily available and cheap to acquire.

The GD-ROM alone, which has been discontinued for years would jack up the price in just having to restart the limited run production line for it.

Ignoring additional investment into software and infrastructure in order for the download portion and add to the fact that several large games that people would want such as shenmue probably wouldn't show up anyway due to IP issues.

I'm actually not opposed to Sega producing a niche little machine. ARM based small box for around $150 or less to emulate their console back catalogues if it would get them to digitize more of their titles. But this specific petition proposal I can't see profiting in any sense.

Offline MykonosFan

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2015, 04:41:07 pm »
We can barely get SEGA to see the value in re-releasing their classic titles from that era, yet people expect them to make a completely  out of left field hardware investment like this? Good luck. I'm not against the idea, I'd be quite happy with something like it. But I'd be quite happy with a lot of things that SEGA also won't do.

Offline Trippled

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2015, 04:42:50 pm »

Why do people look at Sega as this small,worthless company
with no money when they have $12 billion in Cash Flow?

Because of the little presence they have in the western core gaming market.
People think Atlus is thriving business just because they release games that people are looking forward too.

Offline EnternalHope

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2015, 08:31:09 pm »
You just answered why we don't think SEGA needs a Dreamcast 2. They have the money to support themselves. They do not need to spend all this money in development of another home console.

And think about it, a Dreamcast HD or Dreamcast 2 doesn't just happen overnight. There would be an insane amount of paperwork, building up of resources SEGA dissolved in 2001, rights issues with games, and then you have the whole thing of SEGA having to make their own online ecosystem to sell the games (assuming they go digital). And if the thing just uses the discs people already own... again, what is the point? The original Dreamcast already exists with VGA output and can play the entire library.

Alot of what you just typed has already transpired.

Sega already revived their R&D division with "N Pro" and both Sega Interactive ,Ltd and Sega Live Creation will activly be involved with Reasearch & Development.

They don't need to spin money on a another product yet its okay for them to keep supporting a software business too competitive and too costly?

I don't understand the logic.

SEGA should be profitable and sucessful. Just because gaming journalists and a younger generation of console gamers believe that there's no market for SEGA hardware doesn't mean what they believe is factual nor do they have proof it would fail.


Offline Centrale

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2015, 10:43:32 pm »
maybe its the code language and subliminals spoken by SEGA's executives.

Listen bud, I say this with compassion... that's kind of a paranoid line of thinking. Like Sega is secretly sending messages to you about a new console? No company is going to be using "subliminal messages" or "code language" to hint at a potential mainstream consumer product. Like a viral marketing campaign would be one thing, but this is kind of a unhealthy idea.

Offline Sharky

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2015, 11:20:31 pm »
It has picked up steam because I have seen it being shared in various SEGA communities on Facebook... Will it ever happen? Hahahahahahaaa.....
Made by SEGA

Offline EnternalHope

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2015, 01:03:36 pm »
Already nearing 21,000 and still going up.


The Shemnue 3 group endorsement seems to be causing this.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:15:51 pm by EnternalHope »

Offline EnternalHope

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2015, 01:22:00 pm »


I'm actually not opposed to Sega producing a niche little machine. ARM based small box for around $150 or less to emulate their console back catalogues if it would get them to digitize more of their titles. But this specific petition proposal I can't see profiting in any sense.


Do you have any statics or internal numbers that can prove that it wouldn't?


People make claims that SEGA will fail, but do they even know for sure themselves with actual proof, or its it just assumptions based on old,tired hyperbole?


It's the latter. Because gamers don't know the first thing about how its determined a product will perform or sell in the market. Its not word of mouth, its RESEARCH, INTERNAL TEST MARKETING.

Those are what makes or breaks a product. Not just because of a majority opinion among one consumer base or what a game journalist says. This is what helped iPhone defy the odds against it back in late 2006/early 2007 and NES in 1985. The Consumers have the final say and console gamers are not the only demographic out there, nor do they know what people really like.

Listen bud, I say this with compassion... that's kind of a paranoid line of thinking. Like Sega is secretly sending messages to you about a new console? No company is going to be using "subliminal messages" or "code language" to hint at a potential mainstream consumer product. Like a viral marketing campaign would be one thing, but this is kind of a unhealthy idea.


I am not paranoid. I know how business works. How investors think. I ignore gamers and journalists because they don't.


SEGA clearly has been hinting at its older fans that it wants to do hardware again at some point in the future. People can deny this as much as they want. But I happen to know corporate speak.





SEGA is in far better shape financially then they even were in 1991. You know why they were so successful during the early 90s? Because they took risks. Doing nothing but publishing console titles that underperfom and compete against a too competitive, too costly software market is NOT taking risks.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:32:28 pm by EnternalHope »

Offline JRcade19

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2015, 01:38:54 pm »
There is nothing hyperbolistic about saying the quantity and availability of components in a product affect its price. That's basic Econ 101/Economies of scale.

I also never said Sega or Sega hardware would fail, I said this specific proposition is unlikely to yield much if anything at all due to the above reason. GD-ROM Drives have been out of production for at least a decade, no one makes them anymore, unlike the other examples you gave where such parts were readily available on a mass scale.

You probably should be throwing proof around yourself as vaguely worded trademarks are hardly the beacons of any sort of wild extrapolation you like to pull out of them. There's also that pesky little part where investment actually works less on "Proof" than it does speculation(at least the stock market anyway.). People invest in something not because they necessarily have proof that they will see a return or because it is written to be successful, but because based on available facts or projections and given the current environment they can forsee such a path and are taking a risk in it.

 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:46:49 pm by JRcade19 »

Offline EnternalHope

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2015, 01:51:46 pm »
There is nothing hyperbolistic about saying the quantity and availability of components in a product affect its price. That's basic Econ 101/Economies of scale.
You probably should be throwing proof around yourself as vaguely worded trademarks are hardly the beacons of any sort of wild
I also never said Sega or Sega hardware would fail, I said this specific proposition is unlikely to yield much if anything at all due to the above reason. GD-ROM Drives have been out of production for at least a decade, no one makes them anymore, unlike the other examples you gave where such parts were readily available on a mass scale.
extrapolation you like to pull out of them.





 What your claiming about BOM(Bill of Materials and Budget costs) is short sided. Hyperbole is people claiming Sega would fail, "because they don't have money" or "nobody will buy it". Throwing around negative talking points with no substance or proven fact is called "hyperbole". I did not claim you were talking hyperbole.


Research and Development is what determines the BOM price. That's what its for.


Regarding GD-ROM, SEGA is steadfastly protecting the Dreamcast and the Saturn. They also produced the NAOMI until 2005. It's very easy to format an unlicensed GD-ROM master from the ground up. GD-ROM is basically CD HC ROM. DC games can easily be reproduced without GD ROM.


Trademarks are not broad. And the "basic knowledge" that people claim to have is shallow at best. Intellectual Property itself is much more akin and complex then what someone might assume. The Worldwide Intellectual Property Organization is the foremost Global Office for ALL business trade and handles Intellectual Property worldwide in accordance to United Nations. ANYTHING on it should taken very very seriously and not just "dismissed as a broad trademark".




When I bring up the WIPO, I'm bringing up the most comprehensive database for business and services regarding SEGA's future.





« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 01:54:20 pm by EnternalHope »

Offline JRcade19

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2015, 02:55:37 pm »
BOM is in partial determined by R&D. The Engineering and Service BOM's for example can be accurately determined in R&D, but the Manufacturing and order BOM's can change. There is also the fact hat BOM are not the only factor in determining pricing, though it is a large one. You also have to consider transportation costs, packaging among some other options below for the pricing on the end product

Build to order vs Build to stock
Natural distastes (See Thai HDD Flooding and Memory pricing after SK Fire)
Too much demand and little supply
Too little demand and too much supply
Too little demand AND too little supply
Trouble requisitions
Troubled manufacturing
Changes in component material
and more.

All of the above can affect the pricing of components and end products.

Offline Centrale

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2015, 03:32:31 pm »

I am not paranoid. I know how business works. How investors think. I ignore gamers and journalists because they don't. SEGA clearly has been hinting at its older fans that it wants to do hardware again at some point in the future. People can deny this as much as they want. But I happen to know corporate speak.

Whatever, dude. From time to time, guys like you (yes, only males do this) show up and act like you know more than anyone else. It's funny for a while but eventually gets really stale. I'm not out to prove anything to you or win any arguments. But it rubs me the wrong way when people who are essentially just consumers like anyone else, albeit fanatical Sega fans, start thinking they know what is going on in the minds of Sega executives. You've got your theories, ideas, wishes, whatever... that's cool, but don't try to act like you're some kind of brainiac who's here to teach everyone else a thing or two about what's "really" going on. You're sitting back and watching from a consumer perspective, period. It's cool to come up with predictions, hypotheses, etc. but don't try to condescend.

Offline EnternalHope

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Re: Ben Plato's 2014 Niche Dreamcast 2 petition suddenly picks up Steam!!
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2015, 03:50:46 am »
Whatever, dude. From time to time, guys like you (yes, only males do this) show up and act like you know more than anyone else. It's funny for a while but eventually gets really stale. I'm not out to prove anything to you or win any arguments. But it rubs me the wrong way when people who are essentially just consumers like anyone else, albeit fanatical Sega fans, start thinking they know what is going on in the minds of Sega executives. You've got your theories, ideas, wishes, whatever... that's cool, but don't try to act like you're some kind of brainiac who's here to teach everyone else a thing or two about what's "really" going on. You're sitting back and watching from a consumer perspective, period. It's cool to come up with predictions, hypotheses, etc. but don't try to condescend.


I'm not a game consumer. I haven't even purchased a game console in 10 years. My stepdad happens to own a business and my younger brother is a Litigation Attorney. I happen to work with different business groups and have spoken to plenty of investors(being employed in the 5 Star Hotel business has its perks)


There's no reason to put words in my mouth. I didn't say I know more, and did not say you were using hyperbole. Its what I've heard a million times before.


I'm frankly tired of the same hyperbole used over and over and over again. That's getting redundant.




THEY keep saying they know for sure Sega will never make another platform. And that people like me are deluded,stupid,wrong and crazy. THEY act like soreheads(pretty much this whole generation of console gamers) and try to come across as informative, but instead come off as biased,mean spirited, uniformed and just plain pedantic.




When your constantly chastised and told your wrong by fans who get instantly irate and offended at the VERY idea  or prospect of SEGA doing ANYTHING hardware related and told the same talking points, there's an obvious problem: they're so comfortable about how they see Sega currently as a brand, that anything outside of that is both nonexistant and meaningless and that the idea of going into a territory Sega once tried and fell short in its too much change for them they don't want.


Alot of this is also because most of these fans are fanboys of other companies claiming to be Sega fans. Most of them didn't grow up in the 90s, they see Sega as what they were in the 2000s. They don't want Sega as a competitor to their favorite console maker so they convince themselves SEGA is a small worthless,publisher that "Nintendo" could easily buy and that they have no money for anything because "they aren't giving us what we want". There's also this misconception that SEGA is just games,games and nothing else.


BTW, Plato's petition is growing. its now at nearly 22,000 sigs. If it reaches its goal, there will certainly be dozens and dozens of other petitions popping up all over the place.


BOM is in partial determined by R&D. The Engineering and Service BOM's for example can be accurately determined in R&D, but the Manufacturing and order BOM's can change. There is also the fact hat BOM are not the only factor in determining pricing, though it is a large one. You also have to consider transportation costs, packaging among some other options below for the pricing on the end productBuild to order vs Build to stockNatural distastes (See Thai HDD Flooding and Memory pricing after SK Fire)Too much demand and little supplyToo little demand and too much supplyToo little demand AND too little supplyTrouble requisitionsTroubled manufacturingChanges in component materialand more.All of the above can affect the pricing of components and end products.



I'm aware of all that. Except SEGA uses Arcade parts and components. They don't build consoles from scratch.(Doing so is extremely risky and often too steep in budget shortfalls especially with PC parts) They sold most of their old platforms(except Dreamcast) at a profit.(which is why they made so many SKUs).


The reason why DC was sold at a loss is because the SH-4 was not used in the silicon market. It was a prototype Computer that was being used in Hybrid Cars.

Budgets determine BOM,manufacturing and shipping prices. Dreamcast was probably the lowest budget console of its time. Yet it was still manufactured heavily and built with fairly modest quality. It also never had a single shortage.

Regarding shortages of units, that's why 2nd party OEMs existed. They helped suppress that. With 2nd party OEM parts, its easier to get the schematics said console manufacturer wants as well as keep supply high.

SEGA NEVER really lost any money or operating losses on their home consumer business. That's actually the biggest myth about them. Their global core Amusement Arcade business tanked along with the global Arcade market collapse of the mid 1990s. Because of that, SEGA's core profit and revenue dried, and they stopped having cash flow. The home console business WAS profitable. It just wasn't enough to sustain the whole company which was pretty small at the time.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 04:18:52 am by EnternalHope »