SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Barry the Nomad on December 07, 2012, 08:37:18 am
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So this happened, skip to 14:30
[youtube]http://youtu.be/HvZeifU2ENk[/youtube]
Over at Sonic Stadium, many are all for the idea (ugh) completely ignoring the fact that this dude doesn't really know his shit when it comes to SEGA (listen to how badly he posed the question to Nintendo reps). Not to mention, Nintendo pretty much gave a stock reply of "of course we'd love to buy SEGA, it would benefit us greatly". No shit, right? Too bad a few PR guys at E3 don't run Nintendo, and this Hip Hop Gamers dude knows jack shit about SEGA.
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So this happened, skip to 14:30
[youtube]http://youtu.be/HvZeifU2ENk[/youtube]
Over at Sonic Stadium, many are all for the idea (ugh) completely ignoring the fact that this dude doesn't really know his shit when it comes to SEGA (listen to how badly he posed the question to Nintendo reps). Not to mention, Nintendo pretty much gave a stock reply of "of course we'd love to buy SEGA, it would benefit us greatly". No shit, right? Too bad a few PR guys at E3 don't run Nintendo, and this Hip Hop Gamers dude knows jack shit about SEGA.
honestly i wouldnt be a fan of sega anymore
period
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As a SEGAfan that his sticked with SEGA through thick and thin and considering my love to be more than just loving their games, i'd have to second semie's sentiments.
I wouldn't care for SEGA anymore
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Oh thank god. I read the thread title and thought "Oh no, not you too Barry".
This dude's a typical idiot who knows nothing about the current state of Japanese gaming.
HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN THAT SEGA IS A DIVISION OF SAMMY NOW?!?!?
It literally never comes up in any of these idiot's "Nintendo should buy sega, durrrr!" posts
And ditto with everyone else here. Sammy in a way was a compliment to Sega's brand. If Nintendo was to acquire sega somehow it would be the castration of sega.
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Yeah, Semmie is right.
I can deal with everything, lots of IOS games, the problems with marketing, Yu Suzuki not being there anymore, etc etc. No way i am gonna hate SEGA.
However, there is a limit and a break point for everything in the life, and that's would be my limit, for SEGA.
Also, i think it's hard to understand how people think this would be good for SEGA. Often, you have people opening NGaf threads like, "durrr what franchise you want to see Nintendo saving from SEGA?", and you see people saying Skies of Arcadia, for example. If i am not wrong, SOA had average sales in both DC and GC, i mean, the fanboys are asking nintendo for a new FZ and Metroid and Nintendo is ignoring, does people really believe that nintendo would give money for a new Skies of Arcadia?
SEGA does not need nintendo or anyone, they just need to resolve their problem with the marketing.
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Many post DC sega fans limit was when sega was making games for Sony and nintendo and that was enough to see them split, especially when it became clear that their system of choice the Xbox was getting the bad end of the Sega antagonistic strategy.
At least with sammy, Sega's destiny is still within its hands.
Weve all been thru Sega slumps before, I mean sega was really in a slump during the mid noughties and then what appeared around the corner? YAKUZA, Valkria and then some of the best line ups any third party could have had but luckly for us it was sega and not just from japan but from across their western and second party divisions too. So while were facing a digital apcolypse it doesn't mean sega wont pull something out of the bag, they done it before and they should do it again.
If nintendo brought them? It would be the end of all of that. it would be the final reminder that the old enemy won. I think that would be too much for some around here.
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I'm going to go ahead and say yes. Nintendo would provide financial security of the likes that Sega hasn't known in ages. Not only that but their indisputable dedication to creative integrity and quality control would also be an enormous boon. Imagine a Sonic game that had some serious input from Miyamoto. I'm not sure how anyone could be against that.
For those of you mumbling something about "the final insult" or what have you, need I remind you of Mario & Sonic at the Olympics? Sonic being in Smash Brothers? Or heck, even the AV developed F-Zero GX? These companies are no longer rivals and bring out great qualities in each other's work when they collaborate.
And Sammy? They bring nothing to the table creatively so as far as I'm concerned they can go jump off a cliff. The entire merger was more or less a hostile take over in the first place.
Finally, if you're worried that Sega's spirit or style will be neutered or crushed then you're years too late. The Sega that we all grew up loving died with the dreamcast. The brand hardly means anything any more. Between Total war, Aliens, Sonic, Football manager, Yazuka, and Rhythm heaven, I can hardly piece together an identity at all.
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I'm going to go ahead and say yes. Nintendo would provide financial security of the likes that Sega hasn't known in ages. Not only that but their indisputable dedication to creative integrity and quality control would also be an enormous boon. Imagine a Sonic game that had some serious input from Miyamoto. I'm not sure how anyone could be against that.
I'm against that.
For those of you mumbling something about "the final insult" or what have you, need I remind you of Mario & Sonic at the Olympics? Sonic being in Smash Brothers? Or heck, even the AV developed F-Zero GX? These companies are no longer rivals and bring out great qualities in each other's work when they collaborate.
As independent collaborators with equal say in the final product yes I agree they work well together. But working solely for the benefit of an overseer that has the final word on all decisions and for a fan-base that for decades has resented your existence. Yeah no thanks.
And Sammy? They bring nothing to the table creatively so as far as I'm concerned they can go jump off a cliff. The entire merger was more or less a hostile take over in the first place.
Ok fair enough, but Sammy had a tiny games division at the time, so there really wasn't any creative overlap or filter that sega had to adjust to. Under Nintendo, they would be making Nintendo games.
Finally, if you're worried that Sega's spirit or style will be neutered or crushed then you're years too late. The Sega that we all grew up loving died with the dreamcast. The brand hardly means anything any more. Between Total war, Aliens, Sonic, Football manager, Yazuka, and Rhythm heaven, I can hardly piece together an identity at all.
Ok I won't argue with you there as I mostly agree. You can say Sega's already been neutered, but selling off to Nintendo would be putting the dog to sleep.
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I love the games, not the badge. As long as they kept making Yakuza, Virtua Fighter and Total War I would probably be fine.
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This is such a farfetched rumour for several reasons, but let us say it is a possibility, why do Nintendo do with the following if they were to obtain SEGA through some age old will that found out Iwata is the long lost time travelling son of Satomi who will bestow his eldest son the keys to the SEGA Sammy safe.
- What happens to all of SEGA's low sellers? SEGA has multiple series that sell under the 500k marks that they make games for from time to time, classics like Valkyria Chronicles are part of them, instantly Nintendo would not be interested in any of these titles. (Not that SEGA has any plans for Valkyria Chronicles, but titles like the sequel to 7th Dragon 2020 would have had a hard time getting the greenlight at Nintendo with those sales)
- Nintendo's horrible infrastructure when it comes to all things internet would make playing games like Phantasy Star Online 2 LOL worthy indeed!
- The fate of developers who do not make console titles would be hard to predict. The Creative Assembly would probably either be sold of or forced to work on console titles, Sports Interactive likewise. Then we get closures at Three Rings, Hardlight and SEGA Networks due them working solely on iOS devices. These extra developers would come with the purchase of SEGA, to Nintendo they would be the fat they would not need.
- Finally and the major elephant in the room... What the hell would Nintendo do with SEGA's massive arcade division? For whatever reason, the arcades that brought us classics like Outrun, Virtua Fighter, Hang-On etc is always forgotten in these fantasy buyout. Nintendo would have no interest in these series or SEGA's various amusement centres, it would be another bit of fat that add up to SEGA's valuation.
All of the above would have a negative impact under Nintendo ownership.
I love the games, not the badge. As long as they kept making Yakuza, Virtua Fighter and Total War I would probably be fine.
You think Nintendo would bother with games that struggle to do under a million? Those are the first titles to enter the trash bin.
Ditto with Total War, but mainly because it's a PC title.
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(Not that SEGA has any plans for Valkyria Chronicles, but titles like the sequel to 7th Dragon 2020 would have had a hard time getting the greenlight at Nintendo with those sales)
And they're having a hard time getting greenlit at SEGA as well, at least, as far as Western divisions are concerned.
- Nintendo's horrible infrastructure when it comes to all things internet would make playing games like Phantasy Star Online 2 LOL worthy indeed!
Apparently Dragon Quest 10 is working fine. And also, Wii U has a far superior online setup to anthing they've done before, seriously.
Anyway. I'm not saying that a Nintendo buyout would be a good thing necessarily but that I'm not sure that Sega will be continuing for long at this rate. Already they're releasing so few major titles that it's almost sad. Assuming Nintendo buys Sega specifically for hardcore appeal (similar to their agreement to publish Bayonetta 2) I think it would be far better than seeing Sega continue down their current path. But that's just my thoughts.
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You think Nintendo would bother with games that struggle to do under a million? Those are the first titles to enter the trash bin.
Ditto with Total War, but mainly because it's a PC title.
Point, but why else would they buy Sega in the first place if not to expand their library, whether that be into the PC market, arcade market or to cater to different gamers with those kinds of titles.
So basically if they bought it just to get the Sonic License so they can make Sonic waggle adventures or something then yeah that would be shit, but I doubt the quality of Sonic games would be much different anyway.
And even so, at the end of the day, why would they even bother with Sonic when they already have a stable of more profitable and well-loved characters?
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And they're having a hard time getting greenlit at SEGA as well, at least, as far as Western divisions are concerned.
Which Western divisions? The Creative Assembly is working on 5 titles, Three Rings is running the Doctor Who MMO, Spiral Knights and continuing on their mobile games whilst Hardlight is the only victim. But then a game for the Vita probably should never have been greenlit at this stage sadly.
SEGA Japan has announced Shining Ark, 7th Dragon 2021 and Hatsune Miku since the restructure.
Already they're releasing so few major titles that it's almost sad.
EA released around 75 retail titles in 2008
They released around 16 retail titles in 2012
Everyone is releasing less and less and getting rid of as much waste as possible. SEGA is not a specific case.
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Point, but why else would they buy Sega in the first place if not to expand their library, whether that be into the PC market, arcade market or to cater to different gamers with those kinds of titles.
That is the thing, I doubt they are in for SEGA at all. Nintendo going PC is something I find strange for them to do all of a sudden and initiate by purchasing SEGA. The arcade industry I doubt they would be interested in entering so all that is left is enticing gamers with Yakuza, Monkey Ball and Sonic. When you have Mario, Zelda and Pokemon, do you really need any of those franchises to get gamers onboard?
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Which Western divisions? The Creative Assembly is working on 5 titles, Three Rings is running the Doctor Who MMO, Spiral Knights and continuing on their mobile games whilst Hardlight is the only victim. But then a game for the Vita probably should never have been greenlit at this stage sadly.
Again dude, none of those are of any interest to me as a Sega fan; they're not Sega games, it's that simple. It's nice that they'll bear the brand but that's not Sega.
SEGA Japan has announced Shining Ark, 7th Dragon 2021 and Hatsune Miku since the restructure.
None of which will come here and none of which are even close to as ambitious and groundbreaking Sega's games used to be. Skies of Arcadia is laughing at every Shining game released since.
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Never going to happen... and I would not be in favour of it even if it was likely, mainly because of reasons already mentioned, so many games I think would suddenly have no chance of a future... No idea what would even happen to something like Total War. Even the slight risk of that being discontinued or becoming console exclusive is enough to want Sega to never join Nintendo let alone so many other games.
If however- it did happen, I would still be a fan of the Sega games that came out, I'd still follow the ones that still exist and hope they are awesome. I'm not a Sega fan for the name sake alone... But yeah, no thanks.
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Well, what's happened when other big game publishers merged?
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Not going to happen, but those who think that Nintendo would never try to revive franchises haven't been paying attention. In recent years they've revived Punch-Out, Sin & Punishment, Donkey Kong Country, Wario Land and at least attempted to do a new regular Metroid game, and they are releasing new Luigi's Mansion, Fire Emblem and Pikmin games. All games fans wanted from them.
There's also the Bayonetta 2 thing, and whether or not you think Nintendo's publishing it after Sega cancelled it, it does show that Nintendo has interest in titles like this.
Also, better question, what if SEGA bought Nintendo? =P
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Beside what I think about the topic, the guy in the video is really an idiot talking out of his arse. In my opinion SEGA is much more artistic and creative then nintendo, SEGA is a lot more risky and daring. In his dreams that SEGA will be bought. Obviously not going to happen
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Not going to happen, but those who think that Nintendo would never try to revive franchises haven't been paying attention. In recent years they've revived Punch-Out, Sin & Punishment, Donkey Kong Country, Wario Land and at least attempted to do a new regular Metroid game, and they are releasing new Luigi's Mansion, Fire Emblem and Pikmin games. All games fans wanted from them.
There's also the Bayonetta 2 thing, and whether or not you think Nintendo's publishing it after Sega cancelled it, it does show that Nintendo has interest in titles like this.
Also, better question, what if SEGA bought Nintendo? =P
Then I would pose like Vyse like he did in All-Stars Racing Transformed with victory in mind.
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Beside what I think about the topic, the guy in the video is really an idiot talking out of his arse. In my opinion SEGA is much more artistic and creative then nintendo, SEGA is a lot more risky and daring. In his dreams that SEGA will be bought. Obviously not going to happen
Sega already was bought. By Sammy. Were you guys upset at all by that at the time?
Also how is Sega more artistic and creative than Nintendo? What about games like Pikmin, wind waker, and Rhythm Heaven? What about the fact that Nintendo established kart racing and board game styled party games as genres, both of which Sega has attempted to shamelessly duplicate (Sonic Drift and Sonic Shuffle)? I can understand people really really not wanting this to happen but it's no excuse to say silly things.
Now, is Sega riskier? Hell yes, and it's why they're in the shitter today. To be fair though, Nintendo gambled heavily with motion controls. The difference is that their gamble paid off while Sega's rarely did.
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I think many of us were devastated when we heard SEGA was being bought before we knew that it would affect the company so very little. Sammy is never associated or even brought up in any case in the games department. In that regard I respect Sammy because they've made the best decision. Of course they'll have a bit of influence in the financial side of things, but SEGA is still the SEGA I personally remember despite the tough times the industry is going through.
How is this any different from nintendo's overtaking? I think one part is of course a biased and mental side of the whole rivalry thing. I recognize that I am a fanboy. It's not for nothing that I own or try to own every SEGA game out there even if their average sometimes, before top quality games from other companies(well unless they're offending like sonic 4). But another reason is the both companies mentality's. SEGA is more mature and doesn't always play it safe. Even though it is not always helping SEGA, I respect that they gamble their passion and believes before financial results. Sometimes it works out well, sometimes there is either no loss or very little profit and sometimes it does not work out well. Otherwise we would have never had shenmue for example. But I think SEGA has found a pretty good balance between commerce and taking risks lately.
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besides all that have been said untill now.
sega survives perfectly fine and doesnt need nintendo
in fact without being arogant. sega makes better games then nintendo if u dont count metroid and zelda.
mario is shitty
but apart from metroid and zelda nintendo makes dumb ass games.
even nintendo peeps will admit that ^^
and sega has enough stock to run perfectly fine.
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I don't think it's true that being bought by Sammy "affected Sega very little." What we saw was the condension of some of Sega's best and most creative studios into big cluster****s who hadn't released a creative game since, Smilebit being the key example.
Sega hasn't been particularly daring in years. They are releasing some bold games in the digital space but almost as a rule, these are never developed in-house.
Frankly I think it would have been far better for Sega to have been bought by a company who actually specializes in game development, who could have used Sega's studios' individual talents well, not a company who will say, "ALRIGHT, COMBINE OVERWORKS INTO WOW ENTERTAINMENT AND HAVE THEM PUT OUT yearly......(or whatever the case may have been.)
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I don't think it's true that being bought by Sammy "affected Sega very little." What we saw was the condension of some of Sega's best and most creative studios into big cluster****s who hadn't released a creative game since, Smilebit being the key example.
Seriously. Sammy has done nothing but drag sega into the mud for the past decade. All of 2006's blemishes are the direct result of Sammy's shuffling and reorganization of sega into what it is now. If anyone else remembers, in 2004 Sega directly refused the proposed merger with Sammy. In response, Sammy bought a majority of Sega's shares, effectively forcing the merger to happen. In my eyes Sega has been enslaved by a gambling company ever since.
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Again dude, none of those are of any interest to me as a Sega fan; they're not Sega games, it's that simple. It's nice that they'll bear the brand but that's not Sega.
That is your opinion, to me they are SEGA games simply because SEGA owns them. SEGA is/was hardly known for their rhythm games, does this suddenly mean that Rhythm Thief, which to me is not what I prefer SEGA to be doing, not a SEGA title?
It makes no sense. SEGA never had an identity that linked their games between all their teams except the brand name. There really is nothing linking Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage or Shining Force except for the SEGA name and the letter "S" in all their titles.
To me we are all SEGA fans because they make good games. If they made bad games but had the same graphical style in all of them, would we be SEGA fans? Probably not.
None of which will come here and none of which are even close to as ambitious and groundbreaking Sega's games used to be. Skies of Arcadia is laughing at every Shining game released since.
That is irrelevant. Titles are still being greenlit by SEGA Japan, if SEGA America/Europe feels like they would be failures and thus not willing to bring the titles over, it's their fault.
And Skies of Arcadia is not groundbreaking. Its just a very well executed RPG. Just like 7th Dragon apparently seems to be.
Not going to happen, but those who think that Nintendo would never try to revive franchises haven't been paying attention. In recent years they've revived Punch-Out, Sin & Punishment, Donkey Kong Country, Wario Land and at least attempted to do a new regular Metroid game, and they are releasing new Luigi's Mansion, Fire Emblem and Pikmin games. All games fans wanted from them.
There's also the Bayonetta 2 thing, and whether or not you think Nintendo's publishing it after Sega cancelled it, it does show that Nintendo has interest in titles like this.
Of course Nintendo does sometimes take a risk on a non-million seller IP, but all those IPs mentioned are million sellers.
I don't think it's true that being bought by Sammy "affected Sega very little." What we saw was the condension of some of Sega's best and most creative studios into big cluster****s who hadn't released a creative game since, Smilebit being the key example.
Sega hasn't been particularly daring in years. They are releasing some bold games in the digital space but almost as a rule, these are never developed in-house.
Frankly I think it would have been far better for Sega to have been bought by a company who actually specializes in game development, who could have used Sega's studios' individual talents well, not a company who will say, "ALRIGHT, COMBINE OVERWORKS INTO WOW ENTERTAINMENT AND HAVE THEM PUT OUT yearly......(or whatever the case may have been.)
The restructure only badly affected United Games Artists. Otherwise the effects in the long run were negligible. Smilebit was merged with Amusement Vision and made Yakuza, whilst Overworks went on to make Valkyria Chronicles series, 7th Dragon series and Shining Blade.
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I'm just saying that I didn't notice any difference myself after Sammy's takeover. When I look at all the games after the takeover I still see the exact same SEGA i'm used to, and really if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have been here anymore. I think if there's one thing i've noticed after the takeover, it's the lack of quality control, which isn't necessary when there are great teams that don't need it, but that's changing now as well.
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Seriously. Sammy has done nothing but drag sega into the mud for the past decade. All of 2006's blemishes are the direct result of Sammy's shuffling and reorganization of sega into what it is now. If anyone else remembers, in 2004 Sega directly refused the proposed merger with Sammy. In response, Sammy bought a majority of Sega's shares, effectively forcing the merger to happen. In my eyes Sega has been enslaved by a gambling company ever since.
First of all, Sammy was SEGA's original option.
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2003/02/13/sega-to-merge-with-sammy
SEGA did refuse it but this was mainly because they wanted to merge with Namco. That deal never worked at and obviously in the end Sammy did purchase SEGA but considering they were also in talks with Microsoft and Electronic Arts, a bullet well and truly dodged. SEGA were bound to be sold, CSK was fed up with them.
Second, the merger allowed SEGA to have the funds to purchase both The Creative Assembly and Sports Interactive, two critically acclaimed studios in the UK. If they had a better president for SEGA America, perhaps we would not have to suffer with Secret Level and have a developer who could develop a hit.
Thirdly, what do you mean by blemishes? If you solely mean Sonic Team's output, then you should know they were not reshuffled by Sammy. The only issue I could see is the SEGA board ever green lighting something like Shadow and Silver.
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I'm just saying that I didn't notice any difference myself after Sammy's takeover. When I look at all the games after the takeover I still see the exact same SEGA i'm used to, and really if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have been here anymore. I think if there's one thing i've noticed after the takeover, it's the lack of quality control, which isn't necessary when there are great teams that don't need it, but that's changing now as well.
The issue was Sonic Team was one of the studios that really should have been dismantled and reshuffled but were left alone :/
After all, both Billy Hatcher and Sonic Heroes occurred before the merger.
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First of all, Sammy was SEGA's original option.
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2003/02/13/sega-to-merge-with-sammy
SEGA did refuse it but this was mainly because they wanted to merge with Namco. That deal never worked at and obviously in the end Sammy did purchase SEGA but considering they were also in talks with Microsoft and Electronic Arts, a bullet well and truly dodged. SEGA were bound to be sold, CSK was fed up with them.
Second, the merger allowed SEGA to have the funds to purchase both The Creative Assembly and Sports Interactive, two critically acclaimed studios in the UK. If they had a better president for SEGA America, perhaps we would not have to suffer with Secret Level and have a developer who could develop a hit.
Thirdly, what do you mean by blemishes? If you solely mean Sonic Team's output, then you should know they were not reshuffled by Sammy. The only issue I could see is the SEGA board ever green lighting something like Shadow and Silver.
By blemishes I mean that Sammy did not help Sega's quality control what so ever. If they had merged with a competent creative company, things would have gone very very differently for them in those bumpy years. Plus, I understand that Sammy was Sega's first choice. I also understand that after reviewing the situation, they decided against it. That was for a reason. As for the current state of things, I read articles monthly about Sammy's tanking pachinko business. They may have provided some immediate fiscal relief in 2004, but they are a dying company with no future today. Seriously, it's in Sega's best interest to abandon ship if possible.
The debate as to what makes a game "Sega-esque" I think is one in part driven by the shift in focus of the gaming industry from Japan to the West. Sega in the 90's and early 2000s was a remarkably Japanese affair. There was the odd title like Ecco the Dolphin or Toe Jam & Earl but Japanese-ness was essentially hard-coded into the company's identity. To see Total War and Football manager as some of modern Sega's top earners is still a hard thing to swallow for many of us. Rest assured, we'll get there in time. I think it's just a reflection of the company's sickly state at the moment.
By the way people, Binary Domain is now 20$ brand new at retail people. Not sure if this is old news but I snagged a copy yesterday and am finally diving into the game. I really enjoy shouting commands at my team mates, it's a fun little feature.
I will say that this game portrays americans, westerners, and general international conflicts with almost the same laughable tone and outsider's opinion that Vanquish did. Same goofy shots of the president and his cabinet discussing the problems at hand in a dimly lit high-tech looking room. Same racial/gender stereotypes that Japanese games about foreigners are known for. Over all though, it seems to be a fun little ride so far.
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By blemishes I mean that Sammy did not help Sega's quality control what so ever. If they had merged with a competent creative company, things would have gone very very differently for them in those bumpy years. Plus, I understand that Sammy was Sega's first choice. I also understand that after reviewing the situation, they decided against it. That was for a reason.
SEGA's quality control was already in question prior to their merger with Sammy. Sonic Heroes, Billy Hatcher, Nightshade and Virtua Quest was about a few poorly made SEGA titles. If SEGA merged with one of the other parties they were looking at, outside of Microsoft, there is nothing that indicates to me they would be any better at quality control.
And the major reason was the equity ratio, Sammy were looking for a more favourable deal because SEGA were so heavily in debt.
As for the current state of things, I read articles monthly about Sammy's tanking pachinko business. They may have provided some immediate fiscal relief in 2004, but they are a dying company with no future today. Seriously, it's in Sega's best interest to abandon ship if possible.
Which articles are these?
The debate as to what makes a game "Sega-esque" I think is one in part driven by the shift in focus of the gaming industry from Japan to the West. Sega in the 90's and early 2000s was a remarkably Japanese affair. There was the odd title like Ecco the Dolphin or Toe Jam & Earl but Japanese-ness was essentially hard-coded into the company's identity. To see Total War and Football manager as some of modern Sega's top earners is still a hard thing to swallow for many of us. Rest assured, we'll get there in time. I think it's just a reflection of the company's sickly state at the moment.
SEGA's style is too varied to be considered belonging to one culture, especially when characters like Sonic and his world are inspired by American animations and presidents or how Shining Force, Panzer Dragoon and NiGHTS are meant to be inspired by European lore/books/art. Sure they have Japanese-esque franchises from past (Like Sakura Taisen) to present (Yakuza) but nothing to me solely made me feel they were solely Japanese. It probably is a reason why they have consistently failed in their homeland too.
But as I said before, are we really fans of SEGA because they are Japanese or because they make some damn fine games from time to time that we just cannot put down and play?
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Well from my standpoint, I love SEGA because they make quality, fun, varied games. Really, Japanese has no bearing on my SEGA fandom. When I played Sonic in 1991, my gateway SEGA game, I didn't even know where it came from. Only that I loved the gameplay and wanted more. And since I owned a Genesis to play SEGA games, I had the opportunity to play more SEGA games... Even if I didn't know it. It wasn't til years later that I learned the Mickey Illusion titles, Ghostbusters, Dick Tracy and Quack Shot were all SEGA titles. I didn't get into stuff like Phantasy Star and Virtua Fighter until those titles were considered old, and I was a teen in my "Japan is cool!" Phase. And by that point the Dreamcast was coming and I really went all out with the many, many, Dreamcast titles.
In college, I took a break from games and missed the whole Sammy situation and (thank god) missed out on Sonic 06 through to the 2007 titles. In fact, the last SEGA game I bought new, on release week, was Heroes. And the next SEGA game I boug new, on release week, was Unleashed for PS2. I did buy SEGA games between those games, but not til they dropped in price, and only played Xbox and PS2.
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Nothing against nintendo, but they suck in my honest opinion. No offense to nintendo fans, but you guys suck big ballz as well.
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No offense to nintendo fans, but you guys suck big ballz as well.
No personal attack.
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But he said 'no offense'.
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It makes no sense. SEGA never had an identity that linked their games between all their teams except the brand name. There really is nothing linking Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage or Shining Force except for the SEGA name and the letter "S" in all their titles.
See, I don't agree with that at all. I'm a big fan of Japanese games and much prefer Japanese game design over Western game design and even that alone sets Sega's in-house games apart from the games they simply publish, which are almost always from Western studios.
But even setting that aside...again, I disagree, dude, I think there's a definite "SEGA" flavor to their games, a definite feeling and something there that really only seems to take place when the games are developed in-house.
I mean, EA could have published Aliens:Colonial Marines and the game probably wouldn't have been any different. But if you asked EA to develop, say, Jet Grind Radio, it would have been a completely different game.
And Skies of Arcadia is not groundbreaking. Its just a very well executed RPG. Just like 7th Dragon apparently seems to be.
I don't think anybody would say that 7th Dragon is anywhere near on par with Skies of Arcadia. Not that I've played 7th Dragon but you're the first person I've ever seen call it its equal.
That is irrelevant. Titles are still being greenlit by SEGA Japan, if SEGA America/Europe feels like they would be failures and thus not willing to bring the titles over, it's their fault.
Well, I mean, okay, but that doesn't really do me much good, does it?
Otherwise the effects in the long run were negligible. Smilebit was merged with Amusement Vision and made Yakuza,
Smilebit playing 2nd fiddle on the Yakuza series is not really where I'd want them to be....I'd much rather have had them developing something as awesome as JGR or some other crazy, artistic, original content. Don't know about you.
Whilst Overworks went on to make Valkyria Chronicles series, 7th Dragon series and Shining Blade.
Valkyria Chronicles is probably (though I haven't had the chance to play it, PS3-exclusive as it is) Sega's best in-house effort in years and definitely their highest regarded. It's unfortunate that Overworks hadn't been given the budget to stick to consoles.
Anyway I should clarify that of course a game doesn't have to be Japanese or developed in-house to be a "Sega game." Hell Yeah I enjoyed much like a Sega game, and of course going back as a kid I loved games like Toejam and Earl.
That said, I'm referring to it mainly in a business sense. Picking up a game from an outside studio and publishing it is of course less expensive than developing it in-house, but some of us are a fan of in-house Sega games, we're fans of certain Sega developers, and yeah, their games do have a style and they have the benefit of Sega's long history in the industry. It's unfortunate that in-house Sega's role, including artistic powerhouses like Smilebit, seems to be now restricted to developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.
Much as I enjoyed Hell Yeah, its biggest weakness was the bland platforming and level design....things that likely would have been loads better if the game had been developed in-house, with the expertise Sega's in-house studios have with 2D platforming. (Yes I know Iizuka "advised" on the game but that's not a huge role.)
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Yeah, as a whole Sega just feel more materialized now.
Whatever happened to games like ChuChu Rocket, Samba de Amigo, Nights and Burning Rangers from Sonic Team? Done. Instead they are worked like a Horse to create to create annual Sonic games, with unfitting Ideas squashed in, that could have been a different game.
They merged with United Game Artists, the ones that made the creative Music games. They went, the ones that stayed are neglected to licenced Anime Rythum games (Hatsune Miku).
Original titles thankfully are there like Pole's Big Adventure, Feel the Magic 1/2 and Rythum Thief, but yeah, but are on Handhelds.
Smilebit and Amusment Vision made one hit game, critically and financially, Yakuza, and then executives said: "Oh just release that yearly, buttloads of Money!". Same with Monkey Ball.
Another result is not as much freedom...AM Arcade Divisions don't create much original things anymore, just updates and racing and gun games, which aren't brought to consoles anymore, after Sega consoles died.
RPG's are limited to Handhelds also, after VC. And some of those RPG's are rather lame looking Otaku RPG's (exception being the first 7th Dragon)
But you know, writing all that, SEGA isn't so bad. They feel more like the Genesis Days in output rather than the Dreamcast and Saturn Era of things. I just wish they made more Action games, they had Shinobi as a try to bring they're Sidescrollers into 3d, but then it stopped.
developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.
Where do you get that Smilebits are only developed Mini-games in Yakuza? They could have been very much involved in the World-building (after all both JSR and Yakuza involve in being in a city), and Art Director of JSR also works on Yakuza.
I agree on everything else tough.
One thing that could have huge potential, is the digital space, creating crazy, artistic games on there from Sega's In-house studios would be perfect.
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Not to be the devil's advocate, but why would you not support SEGA if they were bought by Nintendo?
Are you fearful of their creative freedom? or is it just the old fanboy debate that it wouldn't work?
I wouldn't like them being owned by Nintendo either (for my own reasons mind), but Nintendo are pretty capable of not ruining SEGA then say...Microsoft, Sony or Activision....yes, Sonic would be exploited under Nintendo, but I would think that Nintendo would try and give a few of SEGA's old franchises a chance.
Nintendo, despite their blockbusters....do have a few holes in their armour...and those holes are from their lack of RPG, On-Rails Shooter and perhaps their experimental genres.
Despite everything, I can see Nintendo treating the NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon franchises very well, and I don't say this lightly either...those two franchises just seem to fit Nintendo's card and I could see Panzer Dragoon's universe expanded in this unique setting like they have done so with Metroid and make it a really enjoyable experience under them.
I say NiGHTS as it's something Miyamoto wanted to do if he had thought of it, and I bet he would take on the challenge of making it SEGA's Legend of Zelda series...I doubt he'd make much changes from the original, since he likes keeping Zelda close to it's roots (despite the criticism of this).
That's my thoughts on it anyway, I know you may disagree with me on it, but I wouldn't see it as the end of SEGA if they ever did go under Nintendo (which I doubt anyway), I trust Nintendo out of most Japanese devs but I do agree that SEGA would lose most of their unique flavour to the fans if they did get bought out.
Perhaps SEGA could renovate the F-Zero franchise again, it needs a new game after all.
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I wouldn't like them being owned by Nintendo either (for my own reasons mind), but Nintendo are pretty capable of not ruining SEGA then say...Microsoft, Sony or Activision
Oh god, what a nightmare that would be. Either of those companies mentioned.
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Oh god, what a nightmare that would be. Either of those companies mentioned.
I think someone should make a youtube of waking up to some nightmare of SEGA being owned by MS, Sony or Activision.
Under MS: SEGA would certainly be dead by MS and forced to make Kinect only games.
Under Sony: SEGA would probably have no money to make even a Sonic title under Sony, never-mind the other franchises.
Under Activision: MAKE SONIC! OR WE WILL TAKE YOUR IPS AND MAKE SONIC WITH A WESTERN DEV!
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Sega has always been in the middle, they have never been too Japanese or too American, this is probably due to their origins from being an anglo american company that became Japanese.
But that in itself created a problem for Sega in the console market. They never created games that appealed to the average Japanese consumer. Sure, their arcades appealed to them (technically a different audience) but not the console games for various reasons. The only time Sega really became japan centric in their games(theme and design) was during the Saturn era, when they hit the right note that got the japanese consumer en mass to notice their products.
Also what people need to remember is that the old Sega of America isn't a real subsidary,it was what use to be the remants of Sega enterprise when the spilt the company back in the early eighties. The american staff including the first CEO David Rosen moved Sega into america while the japanese staff took over the japanese operations. And from what happned during the Genesis era, they SOA were in effect a company doing what SOJ wasn't able to do, and they were also starting to atrack and develop a strong game designer and programming talent. Technically a lot of things we gamers take granted today started thanks to the actions of SOA. But they are part of the story and not the whole story. And that's the point. Sega isn't just japanese nor american. Its both part of their makeup.
So to say Sega is just about japanese game design is nonsense. Sega up to the mid seventies was using american game designers and style, after that the japanese took over but they also continued in western game design. You then add the second party developers and you have a rich variety of games all held under one banner and all meant to be innovative or excite.Sonic may have started in japan but it was americans that made the character popular and also helped in the design of the subsequent titles. SONIC CD(the last true sonic team made Sonic game) and SONIC 2 is both a perfect example of japanese game developent and western game development.
So i wouldn't dismiss the sega western made titles, neither would SOJ, who still keeps whoring out ECCO in repackaged games up to this very day.
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Where do you get that Smilebits are only developed Mini-games in Yakuza? They could have been very much involved in the World-building (after all both JSR and Yakuza involve in being in a city), and Art Director of JSR also works on Yakuza.
I agree on everything else tough.
It seems to me (though if anyone has info stating otherwise) Amusement Vision (well, now the Yakuza Studio....which alone says a lot, ::) ) is the A-team, the main developers of the game, the ones with the most say and the key roles, while the Smilebit staff working on the game are more in an assist position. Could be wrong, although Amusement Vision were always the main studio credited, not Smilebit.
Anyway, certainly things would change for the worse in some ways with a Nintendo buyout. Sega developers would undoubtedly be asked to assist on Nintendo franchises, and yes, Nintendo would also likely involve Sega in helping to create some "family-friendly" games. That said, though, Nintendo's also looking to appeal more to core gamers as well, so Sega would also be used for that purpose.
Some things would get worse, yes, in the event of a Nintendo buyout. That said, I think almost anything's better than where Sega is now....well, except an Activision buyout, lol.
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See, I don't agree with that at all. I'm a big fan of Japanese games and much prefer Japanese game design over Western game design and even that alone sets Sega's in-house games apart from the games they simply publish, which are almost always from Western studios.
What is this Japanese game design? Enlighten me on it because when I see SEGA games, from past to present, they almost always use to do the reverse of how someone becomes successful in Japan. And it shows with their game sales.
But even setting that aside...again, I disagree, dude, I think there's a definite "SEGA" flavor to their games, a definite feeling and something there that really only seems to take place when the games are developed in-house.
I mean, EA could have published Aliens:Colonial Marines and the game probably wouldn't have been any different. But if you asked EA to develop, say, Jet Grind Radio, it would have been a completely different game.
And if you asked AM2 to develop it would also be quite different. Infact any team would ensure it would be quite different, so when you have these difference between their studios and then within those small studios you have different producers, the SEGA style is not very consistent.
I don't think anybody would say that 7th Dragon is anywhere near on par with Skies of Arcadia. Not that I've played 7th Dragon but you're the first person I've ever seen call it its equal.
I did not call it it's equal, I said 7th Dragon apparently is like Skies of Arcadia "Very well executed RPG" and coming from the woman who made Skies of Arcadia and a big force in the original Phantasy Star, I'm willing to bet Kodama has done a great job on it too.
Well, I mean, okay, but that doesn't really do me much good, does it?
But the point is SEGA Japan still greenlights games and the independence they give to SEGA Europe and America is what is hindering it's release.
Valkyria Chronicles is probably (though I haven't had the chance to play it, PS3-exclusive as it is) Sega's best in-house effort in years and definitely their highest regarded. It's unfortunate that Overworks hadn't been given the budget to stick to consoles.
It has nothing to do with budget but with what Japan prefers. They prefer handhelds so that is where SEGA aimed the series. Are you going to assert that Sonic Team has been given a limited budget because Phantasy Star has been limited to handhelds until PSO2? It was not.
Anyway I should clarify that of course a game doesn't have to be Japanese or developed in-house to be a "Sega game." Hell Yeah I enjoyed much like a Sega game, and of course going back as a kid I loved games like Toejam and Earl.
If you are going to have an inconsistent set of rule on what makes a SEGA game a SEGA game than I see no point on not considering them all SEGA games as long as SEGA funds it.
Smilebit playing 2nd fiddle on the Yakuza series is not really where I'd want them to be....I'd much rather have had them developing something as awesome as JGR or some other crazy, artistic, original content. Don't know about you.
That said, I'm referring to it mainly in a business sense. Picking up a game from an outside studio and publishing it is of course less expensive than developing it in-house, but some of us are a fan of in-house Sega games, we're fans of certain Sega developers, and yeah, their games do have a style and they have the benefit of Sega's long history in the industry. It's unfortunate that in-house Sega's role, including artistic powerhouses like Smilebit, seems to be now restricted to developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.
See I grouped this together because this part makes me question what you know in regards to the restructuring nor what you are talking about in regards of video companies themselves?
Did you think that everyone from Smilebit got demoted and sent to the lower depths of Amusement Vision, Nagoshi manically laughing and whipping them all to make minigames and hostess games solely? Whilst GonGon guards the main entrance so no one can escape? And if they do their are snipes in SEGA's courtyards all mined by MeeMee?!
No, they mix, even prior to the Sammy merger and people get replaced. Their are people from Ico who went on to work on Panzer Dragoon Orta. But let me just point you to some significant people at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio who are now in high positions themselves.
Jun Orihara - just a merely planner on Jet Set Radio, he went on to become the director of Yakuza 4 and still works at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio.
Outa Sano - A clear example of why it's silly to think a team stays the same. Started working with Miz at United Game Artist, moved to Smilebit to work on JSR (Senior Programmer) Panzer Dragoon Orta and JSRF before moving with Iizuka to Sonic Team USA, worked on a few disasters. Was programming director for Sonic Generations.
Masayoshi Yokoyama - You have probably heard of this chap, he was the senior planner for JSR. He now writes the storyline for the Yakuza series, starting with Yakuza 3.
Masayoshi Kikuchi - The actual director of Jet Set Radio is now the series producer for Yakuza. Not exactly second fiddle, is he?
I also disagree with working on handheld games as being a sad fate. In Japan handheld is king, so why is it odd if they are making handheld only titles? Do not see what is wrong with lack of localization, Kenzan has not been localized but that does not mean that Nagoshi is not SEGA's top dog.
Much as I enjoyed Hell Yeah, its biggest weakness was the bland platforming and level design....things that likely would have been loads better if the game had been developed in-house, with the expertise Sega's in-house studios have with 2D platforming. (Yes I know Iizuka "advised" on the game but that's not a huge role.)
SEGA games have been poor/bland before. This is not something that an inhouse development would fix, it depends on who the game was handed too.
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Ryuta Ueda - Art director for JSR, went on to be lead designer/director for the first two Yakuza titles (Aki could probably name his exact titles for both games) and he went on to direct (and write and design) Rise of Nightmares. I know Rise of Nightmares has that negative Kinect stigma, but like my review said, it was a fun arcade-like title with some really cool bosses, tense moments and really was SEGA allowing a key SmileBit member to make a crazy, risky, original game. Which is exactly what it ended up being. Not perfect, but it did remind me of titles like GunValkyrie.
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I do believe he is working on a new game. Not sure if it was Demon Tribe or a new title altogether, that Famitsu article seems to have caused quite a bit of confusion.
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Aki and ROJM are my favorites :-*
I buy Nintendo stuff, but still hating them :P
If Nintendo bought Sega, they will only make sequels to Sonic and "maybe" Virtua Fighter ONLY!
Arcades and mobile telephone games, NEVERMORE!
End.
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What is this Japanese game design? Enlighten me on it because when I see SEGA games, from past to present, they almost always use to do the reverse of how someone becomes successful in Japan. And it shows with their game sales.
Games like Sega's are not developed in the West. Honestly man you can write essays on the topic of Western vs Japanese game development and philosophy and I'm just not in the mood for that right now, lol. You can read up on it.
And if you asked AM2 to develop it would also be quite different. Infact any team would ensure it would be quite different, so when you have these difference between their studios and then within those small studios you have different producers, the SEGA style is not very consistent.
It's not very "consistent" but I don't see how you can claim to be a Sega fan and say there's nothing distinct about their games.
I did not call it it's equal, I said 7th Dragon apparently is like Skies of Arcadia "Very well executed RPG" and coming from the woman who made Skies of Arcadia and a big force in the original Phantasy Star, I'm willing to bet Kodama has done a great job on it too.
Game was co-developed by Overworks and Imageepoch. I'm not sure who did what in its development, but imageepoch did a fairly terrible job on Arc Rise Fantasia, so I dunno. I'm skeptical.
It has nothing to do with budget but with what Japan prefers. They prefer handhelds so that is where SEGA aimed the series. Are you going to assert that Sonic Team has been given a limited budget because Phantasy Star has been limited to handhelds until PSO2? It was not.
A fair point, I guess, though console RPGs such as the Tales games seem to have no problems selling.
Did you think that everyone from Smilebit got demoted and sent to the lower depths of Amusement Vision, Nagoshi manically laughing and whipping them all to make minigames and hostess games solely? Whilst GonGon guards the main entrance so no one can escape? And if they do their are snipes in SEGA's courtyards all mined by MeeMee?!
haha well generally speaking, yes. Either way, I suppose my point is that breaking up a team is never a great thing for their sense of creativity or dynamic.
Jun Orihara - just a merely planner on Jet Set Radio, he went on to become the director of Yakuza 4 and still works at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio.
Outa Sano - A clear example of why it's silly to think a team stays the same. Started working with Miz at United Game Artist, moved to Smilebit to work on JSR (Senior Programmer) Panzer Dragoon Orta and JSRF before moving with Iizuka to Sonic Team USA, worked on a few disasters. Was programming director for Sonic Generations.
Masayoshi Yokoyama - You have probably heard of this chap, he was the senior planner for JSR. He now writes the storyline for the Yakuza series, starting with Yakuza 3.
Masayoshi Kikuchi - The actual director of Jet Set Radio is now the series producer for Yakuza. Not exactly second fiddle, is he?
Fair enough, though you're talking about individuals. Invidivuals move around quite a lot, but entire teams being disassembled is a very different thing.
I also disagree with working on handheld games as being a sad fate. In Japan handheld is king, so why is it odd if they are making handheld only titles? Do not see what is wrong with lack of localization, Kenzan has not been localized but that does not mean that Nagoshi is not SEGA's top dog.
For now. We'll see what happens to his ability to create non-Yakuza games after the bombing of Binary Domain.
I do believe he is working on a new game.
It's a shame it's without the rest of his team. I definitely do wish him the best of luck.
SEGA games have been poor/bland before. This is not something that an inhouse development would fix, it depends on who the game was handed too.
lol well I'm not talking about it being "handed to" anyone, I'm talking about a studio dreaming up a concept and following it through.
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I would lose all respect for SEGA =[. Hope this never happens!!!
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Games like Sega's are not developed in the West. Honestly man you can write essays on the topic of Western vs Japanese game development and philosophy and I'm just not in the mood for that right now, lol. You can read up on it.
As I said, point it out.
SEGA's game design is not known to be Japanese, they hardly appeal to that demograph.
It's not very "consistent" but I don't see how you can claim to be a Sega fan and say there's nothing distinct about their games.
Because there is not. All the development studios all have different style and within those development studios their development teams all have their own styles. If you cannot define the style with any set rule then its very difficult to argue it even exists.
Game was co-developed by Overworks and Imageepoch. I'm not sure who did what in its development, but imageepoch did a fairly terrible job on Arc Rise Fantasia, so I dunno. I'm skeptical.
And again, it apparently seems to have been received well by Japanese fans. For once the Overworks team is actually enjoying a tiny bit of success, Shinobi excluding.
haha well generally speaking, yes. Either way, I suppose my point is that breaking up a team is never a great thing for their sense of creativity or dynamic.
The team was consistently being shifted and moved around prior to the merger. This occurred at SEGA regardless of the merger. They now hold various positions within SEGA, some of them quite high so it is hardly the second fiddle you claimed it to be.
Now the team members that work in Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio actually have games that sell and hold high critical acclaim in Japan itself.
Fair enough, though you're talking about individuals. Invidivuals move around quite a lot, but entire teams being disassembled is a very different thing.
They were not disassembled. They were merged with Amusement Vision which considering how well Yakuza turned out, was not too bad.
For now. We'll see what happens to his ability to create non-Yakuza games after the bombing of Binary Domain.
The bombing of his game will ensure SEGA will not develop many new IPs at all, I do not see how this is very surprising given how the market has perceived new IPs these past few years. But the point was a game being localized does not mean a lack of respect, it means SEGA America or Europe believe there is a difficulty in making it a marketable title.
It's a shame it's without the rest of his team. I definitely do wish him the best of luck.
They were never his team, he is associated closer to Team Andromeda than the Jet Set Radio team.
lol well I'm not talking about it being "handed to" anyone, I'm talking about a studio dreaming up a concept and following it through.
SEGA has dreamt up some fairly terrible concepts too though, AM2 even has two bad games to their name.
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As I said, point it out.
SEGA's game design is not known to be Japanese, they hardly appeal to that demograph.
Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.
All the development studios all have different style and within those development studios their development teams all have their own styles. If you cannot define the style with any set rule then its very difficult to argue it even exists.
Yes but each development studio has their own style and during the Genesis-DC days they all consisently released artistic and very creative efforts.
Now the team members that work in Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio actually have games that sell and hold high critical acclaim in Japan itself.
Sucks that they're stuck in the most un-innovative franchise possible.
SEGA has dreamt up some fairly terrible concepts too though, AM2 even has two bad games to their name.
Well if you make risky games of course you're going to have some that don't work out, but you can't deny how amazing many of their titles have been.
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Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.
Erm... no. I'd say that arcade-style games are very much a US invention that the Japanese took to early on, and even then it wasn't the Japanese themselves that founded the early gaming companies. First coin-op arcade game: Galaxy Game at Stanford University (California) in 1971. Atari (US company) releases pong in '72. Taito releases their first arcade game Astro Race, which is a copy of Atari's own Space Race. Even then, Taito (a company in Japan) was founded by a Russian Jew. SEGA's early arcade games were Atari clones, like Pong Tron. Heck, from my findings many of SEGA's early arcade games were developed by a company called Gremlin based out of San Diego, California. The first "original" SEGA arcade game that looks to not be an Atari clone is Fonz, which is based on the US show Happy Days.
And we all know how big Atari was in the Arcades in the years that followed. My point is, the Japanese may have embraced and helped evolve arcade games, but in no way are "arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese". If anything, arcade-style games are by their very nature are a western invention.
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As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).
If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.
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As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).
If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.
This is how I feel about Ghibli films too...some of the stuff they make appear Japanese, but the setting of their stories feel European to me....even when they have based some of their films on our novels like The Borrowers and Howl's Moving Castle, they blend that Japanese style they have, yet show a multi cultural aspect in their films.
To me, SEGA's always been about making their games that appeal to everyone! If we are going to speak strictly Japanese, I would vote for any male pandering, panty shots, nose bleeds...kind of extremist stuff they put into their games these days...because SEGA, as well as every other respectable Japanese company, only put in their flavour at a very tolerable level.
Yes, you can tell the games are made from Japan, but the appeal of most of their games comes from multicultural aspects of our planet. Even if you look at Final Fantasy, an RPG known as Japanese, most of the spells and summons in the game are from myths, superstitions and even the characters all appear in different shapes and sizes from Europe, America, Australia and the Middle East...if anything, I haven't really seen many distinctive Japanese characters in many of their games! (Final Fantasy X is definitely Japanese/Thailand/China influenced)
We all see SEGA as Japanese due to most of their historical aspects coming from their country, but we all know that SEGA made it big in the west because of SEGA of America (no matter how much the Japanese deny this....their best sales and days were from American influence and strategy...I doubt they'd have been a force if they disregarded the President and continued to fight for that niche market with SNK).
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I'd say, in this Japan vs. West talk, that for me that SEGA style is very much what Aki has said: variety. You can't peg SEGA down to one style, and therein is the SEGA style. I would also say the SEGA style is originality.
Only SEGA can give us cartoonishly cute Sonic games, trippy NiGHTS, sci-fi fantasy Phantasy Star, hardcore east meets west Shinobi, funky graffiti inspired JSR, Sakura Wars, Panzer Dragoon, Daytona... the list goes on. All of these are SEGA, but no two are exactly alike. That is why I love All-Stars Transformed so much, it really nails this variety. Just look at the cast roster image of all the racers in ASR, what an eclectic mix!
(http://segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Sonic___SEGA_All-Stars_Racing-PCArtwork4539Sonic_Racing_Group-600x362.jpg)
I would say a large contributor to this style of uniqueness is the fact that SEGA is both Western and Japanese. Sometimes games contain influences from both regions (Shinobi, Sonic, Daytona, HotD) other times they remain rather exclusive to influences from one (Ecco is very Western feeling to me, as is TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War)(JSR, Sakura Taisen, Phantasy Star) feel Japanese. Yet, even then, there are elements of the other like I mentioned with JSR.
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That's why I love SEGA. You could only play SEGA games for the rest of your life and you'd get such a great amount of variety, and it never would feel samey or stale.
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Erm... no. I'd say that arcade-style games are very much a US invention that the Japanese took to early on, and even then it wasn't the Japanese themselves that founded the early gaming companies. First coin-op arcade game: Galaxy Game at Stanford University (California) in 1971. Atari (US company) releases pong in '72. Taito releases their first arcade game Astro Race, which is a copy of Atari's own Space Race. Even then, Taito (a company in Japan) was founded by a Russian Jew. SEGA's early arcade games were Atari clones, like Pong Tron. Heck, from my findings many of SEGA's early arcade games were developed by a company called Gremlin based out of San Diego, California. The first "original" SEGA arcade game that looks to not be an Atari clone is Fonz, which is based on the US show Happy Days.
And we all know how big Atari was in the Arcades in the years that followed. My point is, the Japanese may have embraced and helped evolve arcade games, but in no way are "arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese". If anything, arcade-style games are by their very nature are a western invention.
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As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).
If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.
Fonz wasn't Sega's original arcade game, that was PERISCOPE back in the sixties and other titles predate Fonz in the seventies like KILLER SHARK,which was immortilised in the movie Jaws.
Gremlin was just in a joint publishing deal with Sega which started during the early eighties. But non atari influenced Sega game? according to Atari any game going left to right on screen is their patent.
But yes about the other arcade/video game companies, since i said this before i'll say it again but with more emphasis because of the actions of a certain David Rosen who was the first CEO of Sega, there wouldn't be a japanese arcade industry let alone a gaming one since according to numourous articles he's credited as being the founder of what became the japanese arcade industry. And since Sega was the company he started that just goes to show how much more important Sega actually is.
JSR i'd say is a japanese take on a western culture but with an added twist, I dont think the developers had to look far beyond tokyo to get their inspiration for this title unlike the games of the past that had to use western ideas for their games. Probably due to how the global village has become so small even back in the late nineties to early noughties.
Sega to me has always been strongest when the japnese development teams are let loose to do their thing with the added quirkiness of the western divisions. Weve seen this blend perfectly with the Genesis and to a smaller extent with the DC. But when one or both divisions are not strong or not in a perfect balance, the entire company suffers. Which is what were seeing now.
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I'd say, in this Japan vs. West talk, that for me that SEGA style is very much what Aki has said: variety. You can't peg SEGA down to one style, and therein is the SEGA style. I would also say the SEGA style is originality.
Only SEGA can give us cartoonishly cute Sonic games, trippy NiGHTS, sci-fi fantasy Phantasy Star, hardcore east meets west Shinobi, funky graffiti inspired JSR, Sakura Wars, Panzer Dragoon, Daytona... the list goes on. All of these are SEGA, but no two are exactly alike. That is why I love All-Stars Transformed so much, it really nails this variety. Just look at the cast roster image of all the racers in ASR, what an eclectic mix!
(http://segabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Sonic___SEGA_All-Stars_Racing-PCArtwork4539Sonic_Racing_Group-600x362.jpg)
I would say a large contributor to this style of uniqueness is the fact that SEGA is both Western and Japanese. Sometimes games contain influences from both regions (Shinobi, Sonic, Daytona, HotD) other times they remain rather exclusive to influences from one (Ecco is very Western feeling to me, as is TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War)(JSR, Sakura Taisen, Phantasy Star) feel Japanese. Yet, even then, there are elements of the other like I mentioned with JSR.
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That's why I love SEGA. You could only play SEGA games for the rest of your life and you'd get such a great amount of variety, and it never would feel samey or stale.
You do realize that in the picture above, 100% of those characters are Japanese made? Like, not ONE is from a wester developed franchise. You guys can fuss and fume all you want about sega not having a Japanese foundation but its simply not true.
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HA! You think only the Japanese had a say in the creation of these characters? Check out Sonic's history, he had a mom and she was American.
Even so, the picture I shared was mainly done to show the variety in terms of characters and their respective games. Not the East/West mix I'm also talking about, which I also noted with Western creations like Ecco, TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War. There were also the Sega Technical Institute games Kid Chameleon, Comix Zone, The Ooze and not to mention Sonic Adventure 2 which was from Sonic Team USA.
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Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.
As Barry has explained, arcade style games are not Japanese but originally American.
SEGA's quirkiness exists only in a select few of their titles. For every Space Channel 5 I can point out a Afterburner, a Hang-On... For every Samba De Amigo I can point out a Shinobi, a Golden Axe etc
The focus on art direction is also done by plenty of American developers. Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction. Furthermore SEGA's technical prowess in games is typical for console makers which was SEGA for the longest time, this is not a Japanese trait but a belief that most developers push for.
Yes but each development studio has their own style and during the Genesis-DC days they all consisently released artistic and very creative efforts.
Using this I could easily say Nintendo has the SEGA style, I could say Level 5 has the SEGA style and so does Double Fine Productions. There is nothing to indicate this SEGA style exists.
Sucks that they're stuck in the most un-innovative franchise possible.
Sucks for you but not for me.
Well if you make risky games of course you're going to have some that don't work out, but you can't deny how amazing many of their titles have been.
I am not denying it, there just is nothing to suggest Hell Yeah, which was significantly changed by SEGA themselves, would have been better or worse.
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The focus on art direction is also done by plenty of American developers. Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction. Furthermore SEGA's technical prowess in games is typical for console makers which was SEGA for the longest time, this is not a Japanese trait but a belief that most developers push for.
no, but the titles you have listed have a distinctly western art direction. Sega games have for the most part work within a specific Japanese aesthetic(obviously that is changing, which is why we are even having this discussion). Even Binary Domain and Vanquish fall in this category. Not only visually, but gameplay wise as well. This is not a difficult concept to accept.
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Hey n-Sega, do you think Katana's are superior to European swords as well?
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A lot of interesting points here.
It's funny when you think of it, but true Japanese "inventions" are rare. All industries for which the Japanese are credited for their quality are usually appropriations. I don't think this diminishes them in any way. As Barry pointed out, Sega and by extension the Japanese, have originality in spades and it shows.
With Sega, a BIG part of what defines them to me is Speed. Speed of play and speed of thought required to play/master.
Every genre and generation they dip into they seem to just force speed as a vital play mechanic. I personally can't get enough of it. Heck even when they took over F-Zero, a nintendo franchise, they dialed up the speed and it then seemed so natural for an F-Zero game to become a Sega title.
That is also, why I found the Sega gamer to be a bit more clever than your typical Nes fanboy. Sega does almost everything at a quicker pace and their gamers reflect that.
Also, Sega has a robot fetish that I like (that would go away fast under any other publisher). Shooters with robots, fighters with robots, RPGs with robots, platformers with robots as the main enemies. It a theme that feels natural under Sega. I can easily imagine Vanquish being an extension of the Binary Domain universe, for example.
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And we all know how big Atari was in the Arcades in the years that followed. My point is, the Japanese may have embraced and helped evolve arcade games, but in no way are "arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese". If anything, arcade-style games are by their very nature are a western invention.
But that's sort of beside the point. The point is that Arcade gaming had become a major aspect of Japanese game design, regardless of its Western origins. That this was different 40 years ago doesn't make much of a difference today. It's no longer a major staple of Western gaming and hasn't been in decades.
As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).
If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.
In some respects yes but the style and atmosphere, not to mention the time-based gameplay, is all very Japanese. Western gamers would look at the game as strange. (That's of course the game's charm).
The focus on art direction is also done by plenty of American developers. Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction.
It may be good art direction but it isn't "Japanese" art direction.
Hey n-Sega, do you think Katana's are superior to European swords as well?
0.o wha? I know almost anothing about swords, so your question's lost on me. :-[
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I'm just breaking your balls over the Japan argument. You're alright 8)
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HA! You think only the Japanese had a say in the creation of these characters? Check out Sonic's history, he had a mom and she was American.
No where did I even imply that the west was not involved or did not contribute. But it doesn't change the fact that these are characters from japanese developed games, primarily worked on and designed by japanese artists. My claim is that Sega is at its foundation a very Japanese company in style and in execution. Most if not all of its memorable franchises are Japanese. Sure, there were western contributions here and there as you've mentioned.
I'll say it again, Total War is as much a Sega franchise as Tomb Raider is a Square Enix franchise. That is to say, they are in name only. Tomb Raider and Total War are still very much considered Eidos and Creative Assembly games by most gamers.
Sega does have a distinct visual style and gameplay flavor (why else would there be Sega fans? It's not simply that we enjoy high quality games because if that were the case we would be all but gone by now). The closest we have ever come to pinning it down is Sega's iconic "blue blue skies." They also have an edge that is somewhere between Nintendo's family friendly brand and modern "MATURE GAMING." Sega games typically have the quirk and color of Nintendo games while maintaining a tasteful sharpness to them. Again, things have changed and the brand name has somewhat lost its meaning as of late, hence this debate.
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no, but the titles you have listed have a distinctly western art direction. Sega games have for the most part work within a specific Japanese aesthetic(obviously that is changing, which is why we are even having this discussion). Even Binary Domain and Vanquish fall in this category. Not only visually, but gameplay wise as well. This is not a difficult concept to accept.
Sonic the Hedgehog, Shining Force, Panzer Dragoon, Binary Domain, Space Channel 5, Golden Axe and a whole host of other titles were influenced by American and European media. Regardless that was not my point, I was merely pointing out to nSEGA's point that a focus on art direction with a combination of high graphical output is not a Japanese trait.
It may be good art direction but it isn't "Japanese" art direction.
Neither is SEGA's most of the time. There is a reason why they are consistent failures in Japan and that is due to them aiming for an art direction that appealed to a much larger audience back in the day.
Sega does have a distinct visual style and gameplay flavor (why else would there be Sega fans? It's not simply that we enjoy high quality games because if that were the case we would be all but gone by now). The closest we have ever come to pinning it down is Sega's iconic "blue blue skies." They also have an edge that is somewhere between Nintendo's family friendly brand and modern "MATURE GAMING." Sega games typically have the quirk and color of Nintendo games while maintaining a tasteful sharpness to them. Again, things have changed and the brand name has somewhat lost its meaning as of late, hence this debate.
Because of the following;
1. SEGA has a long and rich history that people would like to talk about
2. SEGAbits is built on a community
3. SEGA still make quality games
4. Their arcade scene, which is how I became a SEGA fan, is still going strong
And not because of a mystical style that people say exists that would exclude various games. Because you can say a lot of developers share the SEGA style then, therefore it is not really SEGA's style.
But as I have said, the game can have the greatest art direction in the world, if it is pants I am not playing it. I am not ignoring a title or not considering it part of a company because of some personal beliefs. Total War to me looks like a much much better game than Sangoku Taisen, I'd rather play it if I had a stronger computer than SEGA Japan's own series. And that is why I am a SEGA fan, they make fun games and they have a good variety of them too.
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That's why I love SEGA. You could only play SEGA games for the rest of your life and you'd get such a great amount of variety, and it never would feel samey or stale.
Exactly why I love SEGA.
I'd say the same for Nintendo...but they rarely utilise all of their franchises these days. :(
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No where did I even imply that the west was not involved or did not contribute. But it doesn't change the fact that these are characters from japanese developed games, primarily worked on and designed by japanese artists. My claim is that Sega is at its foundation a very Japanese company in style and in execution. Most if not all of its memorable franchises are Japanese. Sure, there were western contributions here and there as you've mentioned.
Here and there? Make it sound like it wasn't important...
Apart from the fact that the name SEGA dates back to 1940s hawaii which last i checked wasn't part of japan,
Apart from the fact that the founder of Sega was american who designed many of the first Sega titles himself with other american designers
apart from the fact that without Sega of America and the contributions of Tom Kalinske and his predecessor, Sega would never been able to go toe to toe with Nintendo, let alone become a household name across the states(and the world)
Yeah those contributions from the west are really minimal compared to what the japanese have done.And before people say its all about the games, you have to let people know and get excited about the games in the first place.
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Sega does have a distinct visual style and gameplay flavor (why else would there be Sega fans? It's not simply that we enjoy high quality games because if that were the case we would be all but gone by now). The closest we have ever come to pinning it down is Sega's iconic "blue blue skies." They also have an edge that is somewhere between Nintendo's family friendly brand and modern "MATURE GAMING." Sega games typically have the quirk and color of Nintendo games while maintaining a tasteful sharpness to them. Again, things have changed and the brand name has somewhat lost its meaning as of late, hence this debate.
This. This basically sums it all up. Makes perfect sense.
Aki; The fact that you (and others on here) feel that Binary Domain is an A+ game despite its various broken gameplay systems (including dialogue trees that at times make literally no sense and hit or miss voice commands) is, I feel, in part because you're huge fans of Nagoshi and his "Sega feel" and that was what enabled you to love what was (in my opinion, lol) a good but fairly deriative game. Had it come from a different publisher/developer I doubt you and some others on here would have even played it, and if you did happen to play it, wouldn't have liked it as much as you did.
Obviously I don't expect you to agree AT ALL with what I just typed, lol, but that's my take on it. :P
Regardless that was not my point, I was merely pointing out to nSEGA's point that a focus on art direction with a combination of high graphical output is not a Japanese trait.
I wasn't really arguing against that, I was arguing that there's a distinct style and traits present in Japanese art direction that varies from Western art direction and makes it stand out from it.
Neither is SEGA's most of the time. There is a reason why they are consistent failures in Japan and that is due to them aiming for an art direction that appealed to a much larger audience back in the day.
Well, that's debatable.
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I'm no Nagoshi fan in that I've played very little of his recent titles (have only played a bit of Yakuza 1, all of Yakuza 2, and don't equate Binary Domain with it), yet I loved Binary Domain. Was it this mystical "SEGA feel"? Nope! In fact I can explain why I liked it: I loved the gameplay, especially the boss fights and the enemy combat. I loved my team members (Faye, Cain and Bog Bo). I liked the story and character interactions. I loved Cain (mentioning him twice).
Maybe I wouldn't have been so quick to TRY the game had it not been a SEGA title, but if I played it without the knowledge of it being SEGA, or if it were from Capcom or Konami, I would have loved it just as much.
So, in my opinion, is it merely a "good" game that is pushed to A+ due to some "SEGA feel" and cult of Nagoshi? Nope! It's just an honest to god awesome game. The only downsides were: speech recognition & online multiplayer. However, for speech recognition, even if it worked perfectly I wouldn't have used it because I play the game late at night and don't like yelling at the TV. I use the controller and on-screen text. As for online multi-player, I think it's unnecessary given the awesome single player.
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I still don't get this "distinct visual style". Sonic looked like nothing I had seen before, and with each SEGA franchise I encountered from there on out I was continually impressed by new games with their own unique visual style. I didn't look at stuff like PSO, Samba de Amigo, JSR, Shenmue, SC5, Panzer Dragoon and see a familiar style from a past SEGA title, I saw something new and fresh and unlike any of the past SEGA games I've played.
The only way I'd say SEGA has a "distinct visual style" is that each franchise has its own distinct visual style, feeling like something very different from the games that came before. But I'm not sure if thats what you are arguing. And if it is, "distinct visual style" isn't the right term. It's more of a lack of distinct visual style and an openness to a number of styles.
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How about games that weren't made or published that had a Sega "feel"?
I could list a couple really.
Like:
Wave Race (particulary Blue Storm)
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Excite Truck/Bots
And many more I can't think of right now.
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I'm no Nagoshi fan in that I've played very little of his recent titles (have only played a bit of Yakuza 1, all of Yakuza 2, and don't equate Binary Domain with it), yet I loved Binary Domain. Was it this mystical "SEGA feel"? Nope! In fact I can explain why I liked it: I loved the gameplay, especially the boss fights and the enemy combat. I loved my team members (Faye, Cain and Bog Bo). I liked the story and character interactions. I loved Cain (mentioning him twice).
Maybe I wouldn't have been so quick to TRY the game had it not been a SEGA title, but if I played it without the knowledge of it being SEGA, or if it were from Capcom or Konami, I would have loved it just as much.
So, in my opinion, is it merely a "good" game that is pushed to A+ due to some "SEGA feel" and cult of Nagoshi? Nope! It's just an honest to god awesome game. The only downsides were: speech recognition & online multiplayer. However, for speech recognition, even if it worked perfectly I wouldn't have used it because I play the game late at night and don't like yelling at the TV. I use the controller and on-screen text. As for online multi-player, I think it's unnecessary given the awesome single player.
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I still don't get this "distinct visual style". Sonic looked like nothing I had seen before, and with each SEGA franchise I encountered from there on out I was continually impressed by new games with their own unique visual style. I didn't look at stuff like PSO, Samba de Amigo, JSR, Shenmue, SC5, Panzer Dragoon and see a familiar style from a past SEGA title, I saw something new and fresh and unlike any of the past SEGA games I've played.
The only way I'd say SEGA has a "distinct visual style" is that each franchise has its own distinct visual style, feeling like something very different from the games that came before. But I'm not sure if thats what you are arguing. And if it is, "distinct visual style" isn't the right term. It's more of a lack of distinct visual style and an openness to a number of styles.
There use to be a Sega visual style which was present from titles as OUTRUN, SPACE HARRIER and other AM2 or Sega arcade games.Due to the tech that the Sega hardware created. But that kinda changed with the megadrive when the consumer teams like Sonic Team and later on Team Andromeda got going with Saturn because they used their own particular styles visually. If you look at a game like DICK TRACY for example that had the visual Sega style that was dominant in many Sega games during the eighties and mid nineties despite it being a console title and being soley made in america. By the time of the DC era each Sega team had created their own particular visual style. Yakuza Studio style is noticable but different to what the style was used with a game like VC. Which to me spells the problem of the current approch. Sega has never really been a one man company like Konami or capcom, its always been a team effort and whoever made the better games got the plaudits. When you see the strengh of games in the nineties from Yu Suzuki and Yuji Naka during the nineties and then delve underneath the surface with the games from the other teams, Sega as a company never relied on just one superstar talent but encouraged and relied on them all. Which was what is great about the DC/post DC era as the different teams not only got to shine but get the deserved plaudits from the gaming public of their talents. That's why to me it isn't good when Sega is seemingly relying on just Nagoshi to deliver the goods. Sega's success weith the sega gamers and the gaming public in genral was when they were able to port their latest arcade titles to consoles to give the home console consumer a taste of their arcade greatness. With a lack of a proper port of a game like BORDERBREAK and other arcade games from Sega which would help them in this instance, they are doomed to failure. Its cool they managed to get the likes of Platinum games and Gearbox to create tiles for them but without the main or core Sega titles or even encouraging other talented people within the company to create IP for you, they are losing what they indeed were kinown to be best for, delivering great arcade and console content to a generation of gamers.
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How about games that weren't made or published that had a Sega "feel"?
I could list a couple really.
Like:
Wave Race (particulary Blue Storm)
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Excite Truck/Bots
And many more I can't think of right now.
Sin and Punishment 2's another one. The "Sega feel" isn't as mystical as some of you are making it seem, lol. It's rather difficult to explain but if you're a die-hard fan of a publisher simply because they make "good games," then you would be die-hard fans of almost every major publisher!
The fact is, there is something ABOUT the games that you like and that makes them appeal to and stand out to you to the point where you'd (in Barry's case) contribute to a website devoted to them. I'm a fan of Sega's internal studios, I think they're a very talented group of people and their work and what they bring to the table just can't be duplicated by outsourcing. In my opinion. Even to a talented studio (Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood with Bioware and the DIMPS Sonic games) and you wind up with a game that feels nothing like Sonic nor is really that good.
I'm no Nagoshi fan in that I've played very little of his recent titles (have only played a bit of Yakuza 1, all of Yakuza 2, and don't equate Binary Domain with it), yet I loved Binary Domain. Was it this mystical "SEGA feel"? Nope! In fact I can explain why I liked it: I loved the gameplay, especially the boss fights and the enemy combat. I loved my team members (Faye, Cain and Bog Bo). I liked the story and character interactions. I loved Cain (mentioning him twice).
But the gameplay can be found in basically every other 3rd person shooter ever made in the post 2005 era, lol......the only distinctive features (like the relationships with your teammates) had such a small impact on the gameplay that it was almost pointless. But anyway, lol. We probably shouldn't get started on that. To me Vanquish actually felt more like a Sega game than Binary Domain did, probably because Binary Domain seemed to be be going out of its way in trying to be anything BUT a Sega game....
I did like Cain, though, lol. And I liked the game. ( http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/614203-binary-domain/reviews/review-151337 )
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I think most devs in Japan have a similar style, it's just that SEGA pulls it off better then others.
I like S&P2 also, and I am not really into Treasure's games (not that they are bad games, they make awesome action games, the genre isn't really my thing), most games that try to be experimental and different do come off as "SEGA" games, simply because SEGA is an experimental Japanese publisher/developer but they influence other companies to be like this also. Nintendo have some of it despite relying on franchises that work...to me Pikmin would appear a very SEGA-esque move...and I love Nintendo's Pikmin for that!
I play games purely for what they are, but I do tend to favour experimental games like Viewtiful Joe, Paper Mario (it was unique for it's time), Tombi and will even try Digital Devil Saga for this, but it's all from my experience with SEGA games because despite everything, they are one of a few companies that try something different most of the time. (Even Sonic for better, for worse)
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But the gameplay can be found in basically every other 3rd person shooter ever made in the post 2005 era, lol......the only distinctive features (like the relationships with your teammates) had such a small impact on the gameplay that it was almost pointless. But anyway, lol. We probably shouldn't get started on that. To me Vanquish actually felt more like a Sega game than Binary Domain did, probably because Binary Domain seemed to be be going out of its way in trying to be anything BUT a Sega game....
I did like Cain, though, lol. And I liked the game. ( http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/614203-binary-domain/reviews/review-151337 )
To be honest, I was drawn to the game because it reminded me of Snatcher (a Konami game! O_0). As for "the gameplay can be found in basically every other 3rd person shooter ever made in the post 2005"... I don't get that. I played the game for the complete package (the story, the teamwork mechanic, the gameplay, the boss fights) and I ended up loving the game for the boss fights, the teamwork mechanic, the story (love a good robot story) and some gameplay elements that do NOT exist in most other TPS games: the strategy of shooting robots in very specific areas to take them down or to make them turn against their own, the boss fights (as mentioned) and selecting the ideal team (with the ideal trust levels) to complete a mission. I also loved that it was very much a one player game.
Its not as simple as saying one could simply play another TPS, what made Binary Domain so special was the setting, the mix of characters, the unique gameplay elements that I noted and the story (like I said, it reminded me of Snatcher and I freakin' love Snatcher).
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It helps that Binary Domain looks and plays as a Terminator game...but as a pretend Terminator game it's 1000x better then those adaptions! ;D
I admit I played Binary Domain just because it had SEGA making it, but it didn't interest me at all at first....I tried the demo since I didn't want to be fooled again (Vanquish was awesome at first glance, but I didn't like it as time went on), and made sure that I wanted it, since first impressions can be misleading.
Binary Domain manages to have a good story and great mechanics in general....no other F/TPS lets you dismember robots or humans quite like this one.
Would you kill me if I said that this is my shooters version of Streets of Rage?
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Does anyone think Platinum's games have more of a Capcom or SEGA feel to them or do Capcom and SEGA's styles blend in fairly well? Metal Gear Rising seems to feel like something Platinum would do despite things like the story and characters and the original ideas before Platinum's arrival being from Konami/Kojima Productions.
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Does anyone think Platinum's games have more of a Capcom or SEGA feel to them or do Capcom and SEGA's styles blend in fairly well? Metal Gear Rising seems to feel like something Platinum would do despite things like the story and characters and the original ideas before Platinum's arrival being from Konami/Kojima Productions.
Vanquish feels vaguely like a Sega game. The rest, nah.
Overall I think the Arcade Division has kept the Sega feel better than Consumer Division tbh.
Many are gonna laugh at me, but to me this totally feels Sega:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7N2aUvzwpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQM1rQc-60A
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Vanquish feels vaguely like a Sega game. The rest, nah.
Overall I think the Arcade Division has kept the Sega feel better than Consumer Division tbh.
Many are gonna laugh at me, but to me this totally feels Sega:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7N2aUvzwpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQM1rQc-60A
No wonder it looks familiar, it's Sega Race TV.
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To be honest, I was drawn to the game because it reminded me of Snatcher (a Konami game! O_0). As for "the gameplay can be found in basically every other 3rd person shooter ever made in the post 2005"... I don't get that. I played the game for the complete package (the story, the teamwork mechanic, the gameplay, the boss fights) and I ended up loving the game for the boss fights, the teamwork mechanic, the story (love a good robot story) and some gameplay elements that do NOT exist in most other TPS games: the strategy of shooting robots in very specific areas to take them down or to make them turn against their own, the boss fights (as mentioned) and selecting the ideal team (with the ideal trust levels) to complete a mission. I also loved that it was very much a one player game.
Its not as simple as saying one could simply play another TPS, what made Binary Domain so special was the setting, the mix of characters, the unique gameplay elements that I noted and the story (like I said, it reminded me of Snatcher and I freakin' love Snatcher).
We're wayyy off-topic here now but that's my fault. I can sort of see where you're coming from. It hasn't entirely changed my opinion though, lol; I still feel that Segabits and other Sega fansites are really the only places where you can find people who thought Binary Domain was an A+ effort, and I think there's a reason for that that goes beyond the game itself.
Anyway, just to comment on this, lol. I did like Binary Domain's gameplay, which I thought was more fun than Mass Effect 3's by a longshot, and several of the bosses. What bummed me out about the game was some of the reasons you liked it; the teamwork mechanic felt useless to me, as the dialogue trees, which were not situation-specific and oftentimes did not fit the situation, were too easy to "mess up," and your AI teammates would run right into your line of fire, resulting in them "losing respect" for you quite often. I enjoyed the game much more when I stopped worrying about the team dynamic entirely and I wasn't punished for it, as the game almost never requires you to "give them orders" anyway. And I can't help but feel that when a game's main feature can be so easily brushed aside, it's a major issue.
I wished the story was crazier, more "Japanese" I guess...Japan's done some batshit crazy stuff with robots over the years, lol, and Binary Domain's story played it so safe, basically content to be a Michael Bay/Hollywood movie (shit being blown up and the characters running around and pulling off one-liners) and never really going beneath the surface or anywhere cooler. The gameplay took little risks and brought little new to the table, except the team thing, which, like I said, felt like it was very tepidly added. The love story I thought came off as cheesy, mainly because the game expected you to care about characters you barely got to know, and the character designs were beyond generic. I liked the game, but would have liked it better had it embraced its Japanese origins instead of trying so hard to be Western, and had the innovations it brought to the table not been added so hesitantly, but the game almost felt afraid to try anything new because it was trying so hard to be accepted by the Gears of War crowd; the exact opposite of Vanquish, in other words, whose new ideas became a central force in its gameplay instead of something that felt like an afterthought.
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I'm about 3/4s of the way through Binary Domain and am playing it when I get home from work these days so I feel the need to chime in. I will say that right now my impressions of the game are that it's solid but absolutely nothing special. Issuing commands through the mic is almost completely broken. I can only get one phrase to register 100% of the time (roger that) and the game has registered my answer as a "no" when I basically shouted "yes" into the mic during a team building conversation. As n-sega has mentioned, the fact that one of the game's only unique core mechanics doesn't even work isn't a good sign. I find myself comparing the game to Vanquish a lot. Both are single player linear mission driven robot fighting TPS cover shooters made by Japanese developers with the intent of appealing to a western audience. Vanquish however is dripping with style and has a fun unique mechanic (sliding) which allows for TPS gameplay unlike anything previously seen. BD on the other hand is at its best competent gameplay wise and brings nothing new to the table. There's barely any teamwork involved so I don't really feel motivated to boost my trust ratings. If there was some kind of tactical input on my part ala Valkyria Chronicles, this would be a much different story. Speaking of which, the story is adequate thus far and the threat of the hollow children is an intriguing one. However the love story is embarrassing and the main character is absolutely despicable. He's essentially a less charismatic Nathan Drake.
When it comes down to it, it's a competent game but possesses zero qualities that would make any non-sega fan rush out and buy it. And hell, even I, as a pretty die hard sega fan waited for the price to drop.
But yeah, at least Cain is really cool!
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Aki; The fact that you (and others on here) feel that Binary Domain is an A+ game despite its various broken gameplay systems (including dialogue trees that at times make literally no sense and hit or miss voice commands) is, I feel, in part because you're huge fans of Nagoshi and his "Sega feel" and that was what enabled you to love what was (in my opinion, lol) a good but fairly deriative game. Had it come from a different publisher/developer I doubt you and some others on here would have even played it, and if you did happen to play it, wouldn't have liked it as much as you did.
Obviously I don't expect you to agree AT ALL with what I just typed, lol, but that's my take on it. :P
See I do not see the point in trying to paint me as some sort of blind fanboy? Especially as I have shown to dislike or have lukewarm reception to games like Kenzan, Dead Souls and both the Black Panther titles (And originally Binary Domain too) And with the review scores you have dished out for some titles, perhaps we should not question why I rate the game so highly but I should question your own personal jusgement? Of course I would not, it is opinions at the end of the day and everyone has their own select set of preferences.
See we can try to discredit each other but I see no point in doing so. I liked Binary Domain after it started to look like it would be a good game and not because Nagoshi was making it. Did I enjoy it more because it was a SEGA game? Doubt it, if I had such vigorous loyalty towards them I would have liked Vanquish, or Sonic Colours, or Rhythm Thief etc
I wasn't really arguing against that, I was arguing that there's a distinct style and traits present in Japanese art direction that varies from Western art direction and makes it stand out from it.
SEGA's art generally stood out from other Japanese and American publishers though.
Well, that's debatable.
Master System, failure, Mega Drive, failure, Saturn, somewhat successful, Dreamcast, failure.
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See I do not see the point in trying to paint me as some sort of blind fanboy? Especially as I have shown to dislike or have lukewarm reception to games like Kenzan, Dead Souls and both the Black Panther titles (And originally Binary Domain too)
And see now I think you're vastly over-reacting to what I said. I did not call you a "blind fanboy" nor was I trying to "discredit" you.
But if you still don't understand my argument then I see little point in continuing much further.
I'm a fan of Kevin Smith, (...not quite as much anymore but the example will work in this case) I can watch his movies and oftentimes really enjoy them, certainly more than non-Kevin Smith fans, because I like the dude's personality, which seeps into his work, as well as the work itself; all of which counter-balances the flaws it may have. That doesn't mean I'm a "blind fanboy" but it means that Kevin Smith's work "speaks to me" in a way that it probably doesn't to other people because I'm a fan of the director.
That doesn't mean I like everything he's done but that's what being a "fan" is.
Master System, failure, Mega Drive, failure, Saturn, somewhat successful, Dreamcast, failure.
All have failed in the West as well (except the Genesis) so.....
SEGA's art generally stood out from other Japanese and American publishers though.
Right, it's its own thing....that said, it's Japanese, man. Western games do not have characters who look like this, I'm sorry;
(http://www.edge-online.com/wp-content/uploads/edgeonline/oldfiles/images/feature_article/2009/07/EDG147-aika.jpg)
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That might not be the best example to emphasize how Japanese Sega's style is, since it appears to be quite similar to both Pippi Longstocking and the fast food chain Wendy's character.
Also, I have to take exception to describing the Master System and Dreamcast as 'failures' in the West since they both actually performed spectacularly in various parts of the West.
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Also, I have to take exception to describing the Master System and Dreamcast as 'failures' in the West since they both actually performed spectacularly in various parts of the West.
Well, going by the numbers, the Master System wasn't very successful here in North America. I wouldn't go so far to call it an outright failure, but it's life was short-lived when compared to the NES. Genesis was kicking serious ass up until the release of the SNES and, even then, it was neck-and-neck. The SEGA CD and 32X were failures. Saturn wasn't tops, though it had a decent life in spite of a poor launch and steep price tag. Dreamcast, I guess, is considered a failure. Still, initial sales were strong before PS2 hit the scene....
Such a shame.
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That might not be the best example to emphasize how Japanese Sega's style is, since it appears to be quite similar to both Pippi Longstocking and the fast food chain Wendy's character.
lol....wha? Aika's got the anime eyes and everything....
At any rate I'm referring to video game characters. Not characters for fast food restaurants who were designed in the 1960s. (Though I think she looks nothing like the Wendy's character, lol. The hair...sort of. Maybe. I'll give you that.)
Also, I have to take exception to describing the Master System and Dreamcast as 'failures' in the West since they both actually performed spectacularly in various parts of the West.
Hm, 'spectacular' is a pretty major overstatement. The Dreamcast had a great North American launch but sales began to slide dramatically as the PS2 approached and it did not do well enough to sustain Sega's console business. Master System I don't know much about but I wasn't under the impression that it was any kind of big success over here either.
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Honestly I think Skies of Arcadia looks very different from your usual anime. I always thought so from the first time I started up the game and saw Alfonso. As other people said, SEGA is indeed a japanese company but has always had a very western flavor to it. That is among the few things which I personally find distinct about SEGA
I disagree with the people that SEGA doesn't have a distinct style. When I play sonic allstars racing that style is felt everywhere. Doesn't mean SEGA doesn't have games that are totally different or mainstream looking, but especially when in the console era, SEGA has always been known for its colorful "edgyness" in my opinion. I'm indeed a fan for that reason.
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Saturn wasn't tops, though it had a decent life in spite of a poor launch and steep price tag.
While that maybe true in the West, the Saturn did last longer than the other Sega consoles in Japan with great promotion from Segata Sanshiro and games like Sakura Wars selling out on the first day.
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lol....wha? Aika's got the anime eyes and everything....
At any rate I'm referring to video game characters. Not characters for fast food restaurants who were designed in the 1960s. (Though I think she looks nothing like the Wendy's character, lol. The hair...sort of. Maybe. I'll give you that.)
Hm, 'spectacular' is a pretty major overstatement. The Dreamcast had a great North American launch but sales began to slide dramatically as the PS2 approached and it did not do well enough to sustain Sega's console business. Master System I don't know much about but I wasn't under the impression that it was any kind of big success over here either.
Well if you don't see the similarities (or refuse to acknowledge them), that's fine, but I'll just say that I don't think game character designers limit their influences to only other game characters... they are looking all around. ;D
Regarding the spectacularity, it is the Dreamcast launch I was thinking of, as it was for a time the most successful entertainment industry launch ever. Obviously things went downhill from there, but that doesn't diminish its initial accomplishment. As for the Master System, it was the dominant 8-bit console in Europe during its lifespan, and competed favorably even with the great European 8-bit and 16-bit come computers. So successful that it had a number of magazines dedicated specifically to it. And it also was extraordinarily successful in Brazil well into the mid-late 90s. So, the "West" refers to a lot more than just North America.
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SEGA has dreamt up some fairly terrible concepts too though, AM2 even has two bad games to their name.
Curious to hear what you think those 2 titles are.
Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction.
Wait, what? Halo and good art direction in one sentance?
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While that maybe true in the West, the Saturn did last longer than the other Sega consoles in Japan with great promotion from Segata Sanshiro and games like Sakura Wars selling out on the first day.
Oh, totally. I was only refering to America. The Saturn was fairly healthy in Japan. SEGA's Master System and Mega Drive were the shit in Brazil.
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Well if you don't see the similarities (or refuse to acknowledge them), that's fine, but I'll just say that I don't think game character designers limit their influences to only other game characters... they are looking all around. ;D
Regarding the spectacularity, it is the Dreamcast launch I was thinking of, as it was for a time the most successful entertainment industry launch ever. Obviously things went downhill from there, but that doesn't diminish its initial accomplishment. As for the Master System, it was the dominant 8-bit console in Europe during its lifespan, and competed favorably even with the great European 8-bit and 16-bit come computers. So successful that it had a number of magazines dedicated specifically to it. And it also was extraordinarily successful in Brazil well into the mid-late 90s. So, the "West" refers to a lot more than just North America.
Haha the hair is the only similarity I see. My point though was that Western video games do not have characters that look like that. Japan favors more of an "anything goes" approach and always has. I didn't mean to imply that Sega has had NO Western success, but Sega as a console manufacturer hasn't done well in the West outside the Genesis; small triumphs (like the Dreamcast North America launch) aside, nothing they've released in the West has been deemed truly successful.
Dreamcast didn't do particularly well in Europe while the Master System didn't do well in North America. Saturn didn't do well on either continent and neither did the 2 Genesis add-ons or the handhelds. Either way you slice it, Sega has not had a ton of success in the West, again, aside from the Genesis...which still wasn't #1. They've had some moderate accomplishments, but not another success story.
Wait, what? Halo and good art direction in one sentance?
Halo 4 does.
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I gotta side with Halo have excellent art direction. At least the first game. I was a huge FPS hater as a kid, and even Halo's aesthetics lead me to buying the game and playing it. To this day it is one of the few FPS that I've played extensively and own.
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Yeah, Halo has lovely, painterly art direction and some of their enemy designs, like the Hunters, remind me of Japanese character designs at times... or at least a good hybrid of Japanese and American design.
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If you guys haven't played Halo 4 yet, it looks even better, seriously.
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Not a fan of Halo. Never understood the appeal.
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the art is pretty great for halo overall. The only thing I would say is that master chief's design kind of sucks and It grinds my gears when he gets mentioned as a classic iconic character. I mean, his proportions and helmet design are just so damn bland. Always have been.
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When it comes to Halo, I loved the vehicle designs. They had a real world look to them as practical machines. The Warthog, drop ship (obvious influence from the Aliens film), and then the alien craft with an completely unreal but still practical design.
I still play the original on my Mac in crazy high resolution. It may not be as pretty as COD4 on my setup, but 2650x1440 makes sniping almost too easy in multiplayer.
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The environment of Halo, and the vehicle designs, are what really drew me to the series. Also, I think Master Chief has a very iconic look, and I do love the name.
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Also, I think Master Chief has a very iconic look, and I do love the name.
What's iconic about it? He's just space soldier #543. At least samus has big ass shoulder pads that give her unique proportions.
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What's iconic about it? He's just space soldier #543. At least samus has big ass shoulder pads that give her unique proportions.
He's inbrained in everyone as the Icon of Xbox. Like, that should be good enough already.
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He's inbrained in everyone as the Icon of Xbox. Like, that should be good enough already.
totally, but that has nothing to do with his design and everything to do with the success of the franchise.
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Does anyone think Platinum's games have more of a Capcom or SEGA feel to them or do Capcom and SEGA's styles blend in fairly well? Metal Gear Rising seems to feel like something Platinum would do despite things like the story and characters and the original ideas before Platinum's arrival being from Konami/Kojima Productions.
No. I think people are confusing what BD and Vanquish's aims were and how they relate in A Sega context. VANQUISH is a classic mentality of a japanese game. Take a western concept and do a japanese spin on it. This is something the old Capcom was great at doing. Sega does the same principal but they do something extra by putting a "sega" spin on the title. Which is why many of their titles stand out. BD idea was the merge the recent multiplayer co op FPS concept towards a TPS concept but introducing a storyline and to some degree a RPG co operation element into the gameplay. This is something that nobody probably would have thought of or if they did would even attempt to tyy. And predictably the world ignored it. but what happens and it will, 12 to 18 months down the line we see a game exactly like BD but tweaked and a slightly improved or better engine? Not only will it make a lot of moolah but it will be hearlded as the next stage of TPS gaming. How would sega feel then? How would you feel? especially if the people that ignored it start saying this game is the granddaddy of a sea change in TPS gaming?
In the context of Sega gaming, VANQUISH fits in the legacy of Sega second party gsaming of sega hiring a team of developers(probably from a rival company)to create titles similar to their rivals or third parties. This was because Sega couldn't gett he likes of Konami or Capcom back in the MS/early MD era and needed to imitate their games a bit. Sometimes the sega consumer teams did it themselves like STREETS OF RAGE being an answer to Capcom's final fight and in a rare occasion of an answer back, surpassing the title that inspired it , or reprogramming old titles like Forgotten worlds and strider. Others like when they got hold of Treasure, they got what they wanted. ALIEN SOLDIER is just a pure Contra game without the platforms bits and just the boss levels. Platinum is just another part of this legacy in sega second party gaming. Sega hired them not only because they were one of the best and they are a hot team but to their closeness to a style of capcom gaming that capcom use to make money out of. Which is why many consider BAYONETTA the true DMC sequel and why VANQUISH fits the criteria of a clasic 3d japanese game with western influences. the difference is that sega is giving us titles that imitate third parties they use to couldn't have on their systems, while they are a third party themselves.
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No. I think people are confusing what BD and Vanquish's aims were and how they relate in A Sega context. VANQUISH is a classic mentality of a japanese game. Take a western concept and do a japanese spin on it. This is something the old Capcom was great at doing. Sega does the same principal but they do something extra by putting a "sega" spin on the title. Which is why many of their titles stand out. BD idea was the merge the recent multiplayer co op FPS concept towards a TPS concept but introducing a storyline and to some degree a RPG co operation element into the gameplay. This is something that nobody probably would have thought of or if they did would even attempt to tyy. And predictably the world ignored it. but what happens and it will, 12 to 18 months down the line we see a game exactly like BD but tweaked and a slightly improved or better engine? Not only will it make a lot of moolah but it will be hearlded as the next stage of TPS gaming. How would sega feel then? How would you feel? especially if the people that ignored it start saying this game is the granddaddy of a sea change in TPS gaming?
In the context of Sega gaming, VANQUISH fits in the legacy of Sega second party gsaming of sega hiring a team of developers(probably from a rival company)to create titles similar to their rivals or third parties. This was because Sega couldn't gett he likes of Konami or Capcom back in the MS/early MD era and needed to imitate their games a bit. Sometimes the sega consumer teams did it themselves like STREETS OF RAGE being an answer to Capcom's final fight and in a rare occasion of an answer back, surpassing the title that inspired it , or reprogramming old titles like Forgotten worlds and strider. Others like when they got hold of Treasure, they got what they wanted. ALIEN SOLDIER is just a pure Contra game without the platforms bits and just the boss levels. Platinum is just another part of this legacy in sega second party gaming. Sega hired them not only because they were one of the best and they are a hot team but to their closeness to a style of capcom gaming that capcom use to make money out of. Which is why many consider BAYONETTA the true DMC sequel and why VANQUISH fits the criteria of a clasic 3d japanese game with western influences. the difference is that sega is giving us titles that imitate third parties they use to couldn't have on their systems, while they are a third party themselves.
binary domain came later but in my opinion vanquish is better and bigger. while binary is hmm. more of the same. but in overall i agree with you.
just had to bring this up
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So Madworld is a SEGA version of No More Heroes? ???
That would make sense...but Suda51 aren't exactly the best developers when it comes to sales....but I enjoy NMH moreso then Madworld (not that the latter is a bad game, I just think that NMH executes it's boss battles that little bit better).
I think SEGA takes influences from many developers...like Valkyria Chronicles being their version of Fire Emblem (but better), or how Yakuza is a take on Grand theft Auto, but with the twist that you ARE the Gangster who's not exactly the bad guy in the story, but does what he can to help people on both sides of the law.
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So Madworld is a SEGA version of No More Heroes? ???
That would make sense...but Suda51 aren't exactly the best developers when it comes to sales....but I enjoy NMH moreso then Madworld (not that the latter is a bad game, I just think that NMH executes it's boss battles that little bit better).
I think SEGA takes influences from many developers...like Valkyria Chronicles being their version of Fire Emblem (but better), or how Yakuza is a take on Grand theft Auto, but with the twist that you ARE the Gangster who's not exactly the bad guy in the story, but does what he can to help people on both sides of the law.
I mean it like this, if there was a Sega system still around, the type of games like MADWORLD or RESONANCE OF FATE would have been made to pacify their userbase who may or wants to play titles like Suda51 or the square enix style of games but their games wouldn't be available on a Sega system for whatever reason.So they use the next best thing. The problem now of course is that Sega doesn't need to continue that mentality to a third party context because they are a third party themselves.
And in the context of MW, Platinum games were the starpower that Sega was investing in, so any game they would have made, Sega thought would make some money. But it didn't turn out like that.
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A lot of people give SEGA shit for releasing less games now than they did in the console era, but the thing is (like you're saying ROJM) they no longer need to fill in the missing pieces of a console library. I didn't quite get that until I saw your posts, but it makes total sense now. Why would they need the 2K sports games? They have no need to compete in that market.
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A lot of people give SEGA shit for releasing less games now than they did in the console era, but the thing is (like you're saying ROJM) they no longer need to fill in the missing pieces of a console library. I didn't quite get that until I saw your posts, but it makes total sense now. Why would they need the 2K sports games? They have no need to compete in that market.
Well, I think 2k might be an exception. Those games made a lot of money, I'm sure, and got a lot of good press. Those games didn't need very big budgets, and the football and basketball iterations sell around a million annually, per system.
I actually forget why, but Sega sold Visual Concepts (and with it, 2k) back in 2004 or 2005. I believe EA games bought some licenses or something, and it seems Sega believed they couldn't compete without them, so they just sold the studio. One of the dumbest decisions in the history of a company heralded for its unique capacity to make remarkably stupid decisions.
Sega should have never left the American sports market, console or no console.
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A lot of people give SEGA shit for releasing less games now than they did in the console era, but the thing is (like you're saying ROJM) they no longer need to fill in the missing pieces of a console library. I didn't quite get that until I saw your posts, but it makes total sense now. Why would they need the 2K sports games? They have no need to compete in that market.
Well financially, it pays off to have a successful series seeing a new release every year. If you do sports games well, like the developers of NBA 2k currently are, it definitely pays off for the company.
That said, it took many years for Visual Concepts to start doing well for Take-Two.
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While sports games were not really my preference over the years, without any support from EA on the Dreamcast, it was awesome to not only have a fresh team to produce the various 2K titles on the system which in some cases were better than EA's efforts and going head to head against Sony and 989 studios on the PlayStation, I could see Sega had a gem that saved the bacon (and a void in the Dreamcast library.
Sometimes though, you can only get so much before innovation begins to slow and sales slump. If that's the case, it may have been a wise move. Sega as of late though has not shown much wisdom.
It would be great to see a leadership shuffle that understands Sega and the position they're in. No console launch obviously, but when specific teams were producing games on the Gamecube, Xbox, and PS2, they felt far more focused then the company is currently. Mobile gaming is a easy market that they have been doing well with (iOS, Android, and even BlackBerry) otherwise, it feels like things are spread a bit thin to me.
Personally, I feel a long overdue revival of the Panzer Dragoon universe is key and getting some quality games to the Wii U. As for mobile gaming, I'd love some Space Harrier on my Galaxy S3.
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Well, I think 2k might be an exception. Those games made a lot of money, I'm sure, and got a lot of good press. Those games didn't need very big budgets, and the football and basketball iterations sell around a million annually, per system.
I actually forget why, but Sega sold Visual Concepts (and with it, 2k) back in 2004 or 2005. I believe EA games bought some licenses or something, and it seems Sega believed they couldn't compete without them, so they just sold the studio. One of the dumbest decisions in the history of a company heralded for its unique capacity to make remarkably stupid decisions.
Sega should have never left the American sports market, console or no console.
Exactly. That was all Satomi's doing as well. And what happened? 2K sportsline made major inroads in the american game charts top 10 and 20 while Sega games didn't make a dent in the US charts top ten/twenty for nearly 4 years.
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binary domain came later but in my opinion vanquish is better and bigger. while binary is hmm. more of the same. but in overall i agree with you.
just had to bring this up
I was talking about what if a game basically copied BINARY DOMAIN's engine and came out next year or within the next two years and not only became popular with gamer but made more money and how would Sega and every sega fan who supported this game feel? I wasn't talking about when BD actually came out.
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A lot of people give SEGA shit for releasing less games now than they did in the console era, but the thing is (like you're saying ROJM) they no longer need to fill in the missing pieces of a console library. I didn't quite get that until I saw your posts, but it makes total sense now. Why would they need the 2K sports games? They have no need to compete in that market.
They dont need to do that and they did at one point stop doing that between (2003 -2008) which oddly enough wasn't a great period in Sega gaming. I think only Sega Of America was picking up the odd titles for localisation due to Sega Japan's distrubuting them like OTOGI and GUNGRAVE which is why Sega of america/europe ended up publishing them. SOJ only went back to proper second party publishing from 2008 onwards when they were inking deals with Image Epoch, Platinum and Triace.
The thing is sort of a Sega tradition now because they've been doing it for so long and didn't really stop doing it. From the likes of Treasure and Nex/Gau entertainment and the Saturn with Warp graphics, we got a lot of not only good and strong second party games but games while not being Sega lived to the spirit of what sega was about, exciting, original or innovative in either execution, style or gameplay.
I think if you look at the titles released between 2008-2011, you see a rich diversity between the SOJ inhouse games,the Sega second party support and the Sega west titles. Whether or not these games turned into successes or were even good or not, its a quite unique lineup that they had during that period which a lot of their competitors lacked. Oddly enough it was quite amusing how many of Sega's titles had similar concepts/subjects that ended up coming out or being announced around the same time. VANQUISH and BINARY DOMAIN is the most recent one but previously you had YAKUZA 3 and ALPHA PROTOCOL dealing with the CIA element and Sega west's divisions releasing two sword and socercy games in the same year with SOA's GOLDEN AXE BEAST RIDER and Sega Europe's VIKING BATTLE FOR ASGARD. Regardless it felt that Sega was back to its old self, even SONIC strated to improve around this period. And the digital line up did reflect that. But now while i understand the wrong one like the sale of Visual concepts proved. A knee jerk reaction. Sega is strongest when all these things are at play and not just one thing.
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I tend to agree. I think one of the things I enjoy most about Sega is how truly diverse the company is, because of a rather long history of no third party support. Sega has a very deep stable in damn near every genre to put into the fray, but they never really seem to do much with them.
For fighting games, Sega has how many franchises? Virtua Fighter, Fighting Vipers, Last Bronx, Eternal Champions, and on and on. They have lots of racers; Daytona, Sega Rally, Sega GT, Ferrari F351, OutRun, Sega All-Stars Racing, Virtua Racing. They have RPGs, they have rail shooters (HoTD, Let's Go Jungle, Ghost Squad, Virtua Cop, Panzer Dragoon, Rez) platformers, pet simulation (Seaman), dance (Samba, Space Channel 5), first and third person shooters, sand box games, brawlers (Streets of Rage, Die Hard Arcade), games that defie genre. We have ninjas, shape shifters, date simulator/mech battles, SRPGs, straight up mech battles, bug battles, space operas and Space Michaels, air plains, falling blocks, tennis, survival horror, survival horror in a submarine and so on and so on and so on.
I like it when Sega is running on all cylinders, and I frankly wish they were better at keeping some of their games going, a bit better. That is one thing I wish Sega could learn from Nintendo; keeping your franchises relevant. It feels like Sega is so sporadic. From 1998 to 2002, we had three House of the Dead games, a House of the Dead brawler, a House of the Dead pinball game, and a House of the Dead typing game. Then it just dries up for years, until we suddenly get House of the Dead 4, Typing of the Dead 2, House of the Dead Overkill, House of the Dead EX, House of the Dead 2&3 Return, and whatever else. It's always in bursts with Sega. We had about 9 Shinobi games between 87 and 95. Then we got one in 2002, one in 2004 and then one in 2011. Sega's been trying to reboot Streets of Rage since 1996. I have no doubt Shenmue 3 will come - just, when it does, I'll probably be retired.
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I don't think I'd want Sega to imitate Nintendo's strategy. Nintendo pretty much is just always going to do sequels to their handful of franchises from here until eternity. Seems like Pikmin is the last major new thing they came up with.
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Well their support for the Wii included many new IP, though unfortunately they almost all targeted casuals.
Xenoblade and The Last Story are two of their recent new IP that targeted the hardcore.
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I see... but didn't it take a tremendous fan effort to get them to bring those games to the West, a year or two after release? Well, at least they finally did it.
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I don't think I'd want Sega to imitate Nintendo's strategy. Nintendo pretty much is just always going to do sequels to their handful of franchises from here until eternity. Seems like Pikmin is the last major new thing they came up with.
Not necessarily imitate. All I'm suggesting is that Sega keep up some of their big titles a bit better. They can build on what they have, and change things up plenty, but that shouldn't mean the only titles I can rest assured of seeing are Virtua Fighter, Yakuza, Sonic, Football Manager and Total War.
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Nintendo was forced to create more game content themselves with the N64 when they ironically suffered the same fate Sega did during the 80s and mid nineties, no real third party support. The did the same with the cube and then the Wii but no one not even nintendo knew that the Wii would become a big hit and then of course the other similarity with Sega happened, when their first party games was directly competing and seling better than their first party support.
Judging from the Wii U line up it seems Nintendo is falling back on the N64 stratedgy on relying on second party companies to create content for them, which seems to include Sega/Platinum with BAYONETTA 2. Makes you also wonder if the other title that Platinum is making for Nintendo was a game they were planning to make for Sega but just didn't happen...
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Not necessarily imitate. All I'm suggesting is that Sega keep up some of their big titles a bit better. They can build on what they have, and change things up plenty, but that shouldn't mean the only titles I can rest assured of seeing are Virtua Fighter, Yakuza, Sonic, Football Manager and Total War.
Well that's sadly is another tradition in Sega that many of us had to get use to. The franchises you mentioned in a previous post, any company would make money from and retire with just a handful or one of the games you mentioned. But Sega as you mentioned has all these games under one roof and they can't do them all especially when as a company they always want to do new titles and new games which leave the older franchises in limbo sometimes. Its a vicious circle because some new titles they create end up becoming classics and then they get rested in favour for a brand new game and it goes on and on. Also bad luck seems to be a problem. Sega was planning to do an ALTERED BEAST sequel back in the genesis era which failed to take off, SOR always seems to get greenlit then cancelled even when the original team with Yuzo wanted to do a sequel back in the early noughties.
But some franchises that has indeed made money Sega rested for no real reason at all. SAKURA TAISEN got "retired" after suffering a dive in sales(But not enough of a dive to stop the series)and Sega not only stopped the game, they closed most of the merchandise including the shop along with it. Now all of a sudden they've started to slowly reintroduce the franchise with cameos, anime a new live action theatre show and a couple of new games.
Prehaps another argument is that these titles mentioned just doesn't sell to today's consumer which is why when they have been released be it ORTA,SHINOBI 2002 or SAMBA they've not been finacial successes. Compared to games that they've made adapting to the current gamers tastes rather than the Sega gamers tastes like YAKUZA or SONIC or SHINING crap. If Sega had the money to create a new game system the fortunes for these titles would be slightly different. But of course Sega as a third party needs to market the games properly too.