SEGAbits Forums

Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: ROJM on November 28, 2014, 11:51:21 am

Title: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on November 28, 2014, 11:51:21 am
Teaser trailer for the new Star Wars movie...what do ya think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=erLk59H86ww
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on November 28, 2014, 07:31:31 pm
I came 6 times.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on November 28, 2014, 11:06:11 pm
The reveal of the "The Force Awakens" subtitle at the end looked a bit amateurish. Either way, can't wait to find out more about this.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: mylifewithsega on November 29, 2014, 12:17:22 am
POSITIVES:

- The X-Wings zipping across a watery surface looked gorgeous.
- Stormtroopers actually looked intimidating again.
- The Falcon reveal. Tie-Fighters looked a tad strange, though I'm sure they've been tweaked a bit for this new series.

NEGATIVES:

- It's a glorified teaser. Not enough actual footage. Too many fades to black for my liking.
- The lightsaber doesn't make any sense to me. What purpose do those little spurts at the side serve? Hopefully they'll explain that.
- After all the "film is real, digital's crap" talk J.J. has been spewing as of late, the lack of model effects is somewhat disappointing.

I don't get it. Why is digital perfectly servicable for visual effects, as well as editing your "film", though it isn't good enough for capturing live images? That makes very little sense to me.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: George on November 29, 2014, 04:02:25 am
I didn't like the tri-light saber and I agree the thing doesn't seem functional, its missing a curve but I thought the closes thing was a Sai weapon. Who the hell knows.

Also thinking Sai since Jedi have always been influence by Samurai and Ninjas used Sai to defend themselves against Samurai. But really think I'm just reading too much into this and its probably so he won't get his hand chopped so easily, considering its a problem with other light saber fighters in the saga before:

http://gfycat.com/EverlastingFelineGrayfox

Imagine if this blade was around, the Skywalker family tree would have more hands in it.

Also this Teaser trailer is like a thousand times better than some of the teasers for the original trilogy. I mean, look at this one for Empire Strikes Back, 0 seconds of footage from the movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omcxaMEGha0

*random explosion in the end*
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on November 29, 2014, 07:24:54 am
Too many black people. etc etc




For real, I'm not a big Star Wars fan, but it looked pretty good. I'm with George, I'm guessing the juts out the side are meant to be like a hand-guard or pommel, but it doesn't really work for a laser sword.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on November 30, 2014, 05:28:47 pm
Laser swords don't make any sense to begin with. How do you limit light? ajgoafrehylfyekjhf
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 01, 2014, 05:36:32 am
Quote
Also thinking Sai since Jedi have always been influence by Samurai and Ninjas used Sai to defend themselves against Samurai. But really think I'm just reading too much into this and its probably so he won't get his hand chopped so easily, considering its a problem with other light saber fighters in the saga before:

You on the right track..if you watch Rebels..the inquisitors in that show...who are the main enemies  in the new movie..have double use lightsabers. So the sai thing is actually plausable especially since the ninjas and samurai have had beef with each other traditionally ...the jedi we all know are obviously based on samurai..but the sith..we don't really know anything  apart from what we have seen..and nothing else is really revealed on how their society works..we can't count the novels anymore they are not canon now...if they are using the japaense influence it makes sense to use the dishonoured samurai and the assassin code of the ninjas for the sith...and technically assassination /stelth/dirty jobs..that's what the emperor used Darth Maul and FAKE vADER for in episode 1 and episode 3...
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 01, 2014, 07:30:51 am
You on the right track..if you watch Rebels..the inquisitors in that show...who are the main enemies  in the new movie..have double use lightsabers.

Inquisitors being villains in the new movies is only a rumor at this point. Another rumor floating about is that the lightsaber wielding character in the trailer is a collector of Sith artifacts, sort of a Sith fanboy/girl with a possible relation to Count Dooku.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 01, 2014, 11:15:48 am
Inquisitors being villains in the new movies is only a rumor at this point. Another rumor floating about is that the lightsaber wielding character in the trailer is a collector of Sith artifacts, sort of a Sith fanboy/girl with a possible relation to Count Dooku.
Nah..the Inquisitor rumor is VERY legit.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: segaismysavior on December 01, 2014, 02:03:58 pm
Effective tease. +1

Gruff narrator. +2

Odd juxtaposition of footage, since we don't know how the shots relate to each other. +0

Visual-effects-money-shot before the title = joygasm. +7

10/10.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 02, 2014, 05:55:23 am
To me the teaser is good just isn't classic Star Wars  and by that i mean the style of the original trilogy.Some shots  like the Stormtroopers  bit look like very Abrhams style.  Other shots like Daisy Ridley riding that bike and the rollerball droid is very Phantom Menace style...which i hate. Xwing on the river too cgi reminded me of AOTC. The bit with the arm swapping bad guy in the forest...didn't look like a SW shot at all.  The stuff with the Millennium Falcon was closest but it got spoiled by the artificial LENS FLAIR(whoo!(sorry couldn't resist..which is why i didn't spell it out as flare) that Abrahams tends to uses..also it looked to unreal compared to the OT. Done good don't get me wrong..good teaser...but i don't see any of the problems that the prequels had being dealt with in this film..how its shot..the style of it..and the SFX..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 02, 2014, 05:59:21 am
Laser swords don't make any sense to begin with. How do you limit light? ajgoafrehylfyekjhf
The same way flying through space and making a sound...when space has no vacuum to create sound noises...fool. ;-D ;) ..this is SW ::) ..not rocket science.... ;-D

If it was star trek..then we'd all be in trouble....and people will try to convince you that there really are klingons..and those things can happen...and that star trek invented the mobile phone..when the idea of the mobile phone came from the Army's walky talkies back in WW2...


and ps i'm pissing about with crackdude..no insult intended.
Except for star trek....
 
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 02, 2014, 06:03:21 am
Too many black people. etc etc



Screw that...where the fuck's Lando!?!
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Aki-at on December 02, 2014, 07:05:31 am
To me the teaser is good just isn't classic Star Wars  and by that i mean the style of the original trilogy.

Yeah I felt the same way but I didn't know if me thinking something was "off" had to do with me not being a big Star Wars fan. The camera work, picture quality etc didn't really feel like it belonged with the Star Wars series.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 02, 2014, 07:56:26 am
Yeah I felt the same way but I didn't know if me thinking something was "off" had to do with me not being a big Star Wars fan. The camera work, picture quality etc didn't really feel like it belonged with the Star Wars series.

What's starting to become clear is that they can't seem to even replicate the techniques used to film the OT...and its starting to lok uneven..PT doesn't fit aesthetically  to the OT...their idea of tatooine just stands out diferently to how tatooine was presented in the first SW movie.and what's more the Jedi tatooine scenes fits with the first movie than the phantom menaces. So all i saw was what looked like fake sand and odd shots....where the dune seas of tatooine in jedi looked real..FELT real.
And that's the problem. the reason or part of the reason these films impacted was the worlds they had in the films while fantastic LOOKED and felt real. Yet with today's new tech they can't even get that right. I think its to do with ideas..and how its shot..anyway the OT people are involved this time round so it should be good..i hope..r
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 02, 2014, 09:24:03 am
Yeah I felt the same way but I didn't know if me thinking something was "off" had to do with me not being a big Star Wars fan. The camera work, picture quality etc didn't really feel like it belonged with the Star Wars series.
That's because the camera work in the Star Wars series has been stagnant for more than 30 years.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 02, 2014, 10:05:27 am
spoiled by the artificial LENS FLAIR(whoo!(sorry couldn't resist..which is why i didn't spell it out as flare)

o i am laffin
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 02, 2014, 10:20:29 am
At least they got John Williams back.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: inthesky on December 02, 2014, 10:18:04 pm
This just doesn't interest me. I've seen all six movies at least once but I don't have strong feelings on Star Wars to begin with and nothing in the trailer sells me on the movie itself, separate from its legacy. All I see besides that is an epic blockbuster.

I may just see it anyway I guess depending on my mood for the month or two after its release
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: George on December 03, 2014, 02:48:52 am
Star Wars is just one of those franchises that no matter what is shown, someone will find something to complain about. Are we really talking about how 'HD' it looks? Too much of a blockbuster...

Do you guys know what Star Wars the originals where based off? Serials, which had flashy explosions and all that. Exactly what a blockbuster film is known for. Yes, serials end with a question after a film and we don't know what will happen in the end of these but so far by the trailer their on the right track.

They even changed uniforms slighty to show the time that has passed since the old ones, they brought back the ships people wanted (and apparently their particle effects mixed with CGI).

Its just a teaser, they are just giving us the tip and so far its nice.

Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 03, 2014, 08:19:03 am
Star Wars is just one of those franchises that no matter what is shown, someone will find something to complain about. Are we really talking about how 'HD' it looks? Too much of a blockbuster...

Star Wars is just one of those franchises that no matter how bad it looks, someone will find something to defend. Are we really talking about how it's okay for this movie to have lens flare? It's okay when Star Wars does it!!

(I'm just kidding, I don't really like Star Wars, but it looks okay, fanboys will eat it up.)
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: inthesky on December 03, 2014, 01:24:27 pm
Star Wars is just one of those franchises that no matter what is shown, someone will find something to complain about. Are we really talking about how 'HD' it looks? Too much of a blockbuster...

Do you guys know what Star Wars the originals where based off? Serials, which had flashy explosions and all that. Exactly what a blockbuster film is known for. Yes, serials end with a question after a film and we don't know what will happen in the end of these but so far by the trailer their on the right track.

They even changed uniforms slighty to show the time that has passed since the old ones, they brought back the ships people wanted (and apparently their particle effects mixed with CGI).

Its just a teaser, they are just giving us the tip and so far its nice.



Sure, maybe? Why would this be a problem? That's often what happens when you have a pretty popular franchise that is different across media from its inception to the current day, and kept alive by all sorts of TV shows and games and etc.

But beyond that, I think there's nothing that really appeals to me about Star Wars to begin with. I'm not a fan of the franchise by any means but thought it was at least worth looking at the trailer and giving it a shot.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 03, 2014, 03:36:18 pm
Star Wars is just one of those franchises that no matter what is shown, someone will find something to complain about. Are we really talking about how 'HD' it looks? Too much of a blockbuster...

Do you guys know what Star Wars the originals where based off? Serials, which had flashy explosions and all that. Exactly what a blockbuster film is known for. Yes, serials end with a question after a film and we don't know what will happen in the end of these but so far by the trailer their on the right track.

They even changed uniforms slighty to show the time that has passed since the old ones, they brought back the ships people wanted (and apparently their particle effects mixed with CGI).

Its just a teaser, they are just giving us the tip and so far its nice.



And the point was it exceeded those serials that it based its material from. No one expected it to became just as BAD as those serials when they made the prequels.But that's another issue entirely...from what i've seen from the prequels to this teaser they haven't captured tatooine like they presented it in the original films. And i'd like to actually see the millenium falcon in action..not get blinded by Abraham's constant artificial lens flare that takes half the fracking screen.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: George on December 03, 2014, 08:20:35 pm
This teaser is pretty much nothing like I said. I'm worried about it like everyone else, but really the pre-quels didn't suffer because of the new fast pace action fights and new ways of filming. It was poor scripting, phoned in acting, bad management, and not making any sense. The prequels took the story of characters and decided to focus on 'big wars' 'clone troopers' 'senates' and other shit no one that liked the original movies really cared about.

Personally if the trailers start showing 'political scenes' i'm out.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Chaosmaster8753 on December 03, 2014, 08:24:59 pm
I'm on board mainly because I'm actually kind of interested in a slightly fresh take on the world of Star Wars.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 03, 2014, 11:44:54 pm
Lawrence Kasdan got me in. He penned My favorite(Empire strikes back) of the original trilogy.
And of course like I mentioned earlier, Williams also sucks me in.

I'm concerned about Abrahms but not due to his actual direction. His effects sure. However, I doubt he'll manage to mangle star wars more than Lucas did. Politics was an awful route to emphasize for the prequels. The only redeeming factor funnily enough ARE the clone troopers IMO.

The 2002 Clone wars Animated shorts were amazing and many of the best written episodes of the 2009 Clone wars CGI series revolve around the clone troopers and their various thoughts, desires, struggles ect...They weren't mindless, blind soldiers, they were portrayed very human. Of course there is also other media such as Republic commando, which did an excellent job making clones in the form of commandos, humorous and likeable.

I doubt he can do worse than his Trek Reboot which had absolutely nothing to do with what Star trek was about(Discovery, commentary, Religion, politics vs LENS FLARE EBIL SHIP BOOM). Trek had its fair share of emphasis on conflict from time to time but Jesus.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: George on December 04, 2014, 12:20:43 am
I don't think the Clone Wars was a bad animated short, I just think the idea that these troopers out there are just clones made in a assembly line fighting robots made in an assembly line really takes away from the humanity of it all. its like "Why do I care about these CGI robots fighting clones" and I know some will say "ITS MOVIES WHY CARE AT ALL".

In the original trilogy they had like very few fights compared to the new one, but at least you cared a little about Han, Chewie, Han and the rest. In the new one, I'm like "oh look, like 80 Jedi bringing up their weapons doing backflips. Who cares"
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 04, 2014, 07:56:18 am
This teaser is pretty much nothing like I said. I'm worried about it like everyone else, but really the pre-quels didn't suffer because of the new fast pace action fights and new ways of filming. It was poor scripting, phoned in acting, bad management, and not making any sense. The prequels took the story of characters and decided to focus on 'big wars' 'clone troopers' 'senates' and other shit no one that liked the original movies really cared about.

Personally if the trailers start showing 'political scenes' i'm out.

Never said it soley suffered from that..it was part of the problem though..it didn't have the feel.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 04, 2014, 07:58:53 am
Lawrence Kasdan got me in. He penned My favorite(Empire strikes back) of the original trilogy.
And of course like I mentioned earlier, Williams also sucks me in.

I'm concerned about Abrahms but not due to his actual direction. His effects sure. However, I doubt he'll manage to mangle star wars more than Lucas did. Politics was an awful route to emphasize for the prequels. The only redeeming factor funnily enough ARE the clone troopers IMO.

The 2002 Clone wars Animated shorts were amazing and many of the best written episodes of the 2009 Clone wars CGI series revolve around the clone troopers and their various thoughts, desires, struggles ect...They weren't mindless, blind soldiers, they were portrayed very human. Of course there is also other media such as Republic commando, which did an excellent job making clones in the form of commandos, humorous and likeable.

I doubt he can do worse than his Trek Reboot which had absolutely nothing to do with what Star trek was about(Discovery, commentary, Religion, politics vs LENS FLARE EBIL SHIP BOOM). Trek had its fair share of emphasis on conflict from time to time but Jesus.


The clone soldiers is a big problem..its now established that  the clone soldiers died due to limited life spans. But the ammount of troops that were created...there's no way the empire could replace them with enough storm troopers to maintain their dominance. That needs to be addressed really. Also another special edition to get rid of jango fett's voice for the storm troopers...in those films..

The animated series by that Samura Jack guy showed how the movie prequels should have been done. The films never showed anakin being a great pilot starfighter or being a powerful jedi..it kept telling us..the threat of the clone soldiers never were shown it was implied..the animated series is the excitement  and adventure of SW the prequels lacked. The cgi series just filled the gaps and added more depth to the shallow live action movie prequels.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 04, 2014, 09:01:20 am
The clone soldiers is a big problem..its now established that  the clone soldiers died due to limited life spans. But the ammount of troops that were created...there's no way the empire could replace them with enough storm troopers to maintain their dominance. That needs to be addressed really. Also another special edition to get rid of jango fett's voice for the storm troopers...in those films..

Lucas ruins all his special editions for some reason.

The Clone problem was addressed pre Disney purge, by games and a bit of EU fluff.
The only problems with clones was their aging, which was at twice the rate of a normal human.

They were sent into combat at age 10(20). The gap between the clone wars and Galactic civil war is only about 20 or so years, so any surviving clones, from the first generation, not counting the generations cloned afterwards would have been around 60 or so about that time. Most stormtroopers themselves were conscripts or recruits not clones, and that program started ten years before the Rebellion, ample time to replace an army in a galaxy which loves you(See Palpatine speech on Coruscant post Order 66 ).

I don't find it too hard to believe, considering that Fett himself was around 44 when he died and was an extremely fit individual.

But that's enough from me lol.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 04, 2014, 11:55:17 am
I don't understand what's wrong with the Stormtroopers.

They started as clones. Many died, many grew old fast.. But they were recruting at the same time. And they recieved more clones after Ep.II and III
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 06, 2014, 04:08:29 am
I don't understand what's wrong with the Stormtroopers.

They started as clones. Many died, many grew old fast.. But they were recruting at the same time. And they recieved more clones after Ep.II and III

You guys don't get it..the clones was mass produced. The republic/Palpatine/Sidious had the largest army in the galaxy. So when they did began dying off...there was no way he could replace them with just recruitment because the clones was too big..that's part of the reason the jedi couldn't just defeat them.
There's a hint of that in the first SW movie a new hope when the bad guys eluded to the reason the Death Star was around was to keep the other systems in check...and maybe that's why the rebellion got as far as it did because their was a significant fall of the imperial army.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 06, 2014, 08:26:15 am
I see no issues with the Clone to Stormtrooper transition - Prequels established Sifo-Dyas placed an order for the army without the Jedi's knowledge, giving Palpatine an army to combat the Separatists. The Clones were bred to follow orders and be the best soldiers, but the Jedi Generals turned the clones on to being more free thinking and individual. Palpatine planned for this with the Order 66 organic implant, which made both the Jedi's fall and the clones Order 66 trigger all the more tragic. Not only were many Jedi dying, but so too were the clones betraying their Jedi friends against their will. Post Order 66, clones began age out of service and Palpatine opened recruitment to all citizens of the Empire. This worked in his favor for a variety of reasons. The new show Rebels revealed that Imperial Academies used training as a way to discover force sensitives, sending hopeful recruits to the ISB to make a choice - join the Empire as dark side agents or die. Of course, being an oppressive regime, the Empire pretty much implies to its citizens that those who fight for them as Stormtroopers will be safer than those who don't. I'm sure Imperial officer's families don't get hassled as much or taxed as much.

Basically, I can easily see the Clonetrooper ranks being replaced with open recruitment of Stormtroopers in greater numbers. However, given the Empire is eager to recruit as many citizens as they can, this leads to less experienced troopers. This makes it easier for the Rebel Alliance to fight the Empire, as these aren't Clonetroopers they're dealing with. I don't see the Death Star as an answer to a dwindling army, as the DS and the DSII were under construction before the Stormtroopers even existed. The novel Tarkin notes that the battle station was being built before the Clone Wars even ended, which Tarkin found odd but he didn't much care to investigate further.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 06, 2014, 09:45:13 am
I see no issues with the Clone to Stormtrooper transition - Prequels established Sifo-Dyas placed an order for the army without the Jedi's knowledge, giving Palpatine an army to combat the Separatists. The Clones were bred to follow orders and be the best soldiers, but the Jedi Generals turned the clones on to being more free thinking and individual. Palpatine planned for this with the Order 66 organic implant, which made both the Jedi's fall and the clones Order 66 trigger all the more tragic. Not only were many Jedi dying, but so too were the clones betraying their Jedi friends against their will. Post Order 66, clones began age out of service and Palpatine opened recruitment to all citizens of the Empire. This worked in his favor for a variety of reasons. The new show Rebels revealed that Imperial Academies used training as a way to discover force sensitives, sending hopeful recruits to the ISB to make a choice - join the Empire as dark side agents or die. Of course, being an oppressive regime, the Empire pretty much implies to its citizens that those who fight for them as Stormtroopers will be safer than those who don't. I'm sure Imperial officer's families don't get hassled as much or taxed as much.

Basically, I can easily see the Clonetrooper ranks being replaced with open recruitment of Stormtroopers in greater numbers. However, given the Empire is eager to recruit as many citizens as they can, this leads to less experienced troopers. This makes it easier for the Rebel Alliance to fight the Empire, as these aren't Clonetroopers they're dealing with. I don't see the Death Star as an answer to a dwindling army, as the DS and the DSII were under construction before the Stormtroopers even existed. The novel Tarkin notes that the battle station was being built before the Clone Wars even ended, which Tarkin found odd but he didn't much care to investigate further.

Of course there is an issue..the numbers involved..we all know the clone troopers was a huge army..its mentioned numourous times even in the prequels. The storm troopers regardless of the recruitment drive could never get that number in succession..and more so it hasn't been officially explained or SPELT OUT that's what happened. And we all know the rebels were using imperial recruitment training to learn how to pilot a ship..use guns and other military training and then rejoin the alliance. So with that in mind the stormtroopers could never get those numbers..especially since they are estabilshed to be human and were not sure how many humans races on other worlds exist in the star wars galaxy.  I can tell you one thing..not enough to replace the clone army in the numbers and the time they needed to replace them.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 06, 2014, 09:48:07 am
But have Lucasfilm even given official numbers? Right now we seem to be just speculating. LFL could easily go one way or the other at this point. Maybe I can tweet to Pablo Hidalgo for an official answer, submit it for the question of the week on StarWars.com
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 06, 2014, 11:05:12 am
You guys don't get it..the clones was mass produced. The republic/Palpatine/Sidious had the largest army in the galaxy. So when they did began dying off...there was no way he could replace them with just recruitment because the clones was too big.

What makes you think he stopped making them after the clone wars? Sure he stopped making them eventually, but why are you specifically implying that he stopped making then soon or directly after the clone wars?
If they were dying as fast as you claim, then that should be MORE reason for him to continue the program. This would also imply that the cloning process got WORSE over time, which is literally opposite to canon where it only got better. There was literally almost no one left to oppose palpatine when he ascended power and he already had emergency powers from the senate even before he assumed absolute power.

What type of standing army just stops recruiting(or in this case making) new soldiers because they aren't fighting in a war? Not even in OUR world does this happen. Military recruitment is 24/7 war or peace time.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 06, 2014, 12:36:47 pm
What makes you think he stopped making them after the clone wars? Sure he stopped making them eventually, but why are you specifically implying that he stopped making then soon or directly after the clone wars?
If they were dying as fast as you claim, then that should be MORE reason for him to continue the program. This would also imply that the cloning process got WORSE over time, which is literally opposite to canon where it only got better. There was literally almost no one left to oppose palpatine when he ascended power and he already had emergency powers from the senate even before he assumed absolute power.

What type of standing army just stops recruiting(or in this case making) new soldiers because they aren't fighting in a war? Not even in OUR world does this happen. Military recruitment is 24/7 war or peace time.
Rebels blew up the cloning vats.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: plumbersaccount27 on December 06, 2014, 12:57:57 pm
Hey...does anyone think "The Force Awakens" is a silly title for a new Star Wars sequel? I only ask this, because my older brother thinks so.

Anyway, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one. I'll just wait 'til it comes out on Blu-Ray or, at best, catch an early bird matinee ticket on the big screen.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 06, 2014, 02:44:45 pm
Rebels blew up the cloning vats.

This is irrelevant though. The Assault on Kamino was one year before the destruction of the death star, which is still a nearly 2 decade gap between the Clone wars and the Galactic Civil War during which time the Empire could and probably did continue to produce clones(sans the Kamino rebellion 10 years prior which started the recruitment of non clones into the fold).

This also ignores the fact that the empire expanded cloning beyond Kamino that the rebels had to also hunt down.
Fett clones were a minority in the Empire by the completion of the first death star.

The rebellion itself wasn't really formed cohesively until a year prior to Kamino.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 07, 2014, 12:53:14 am
Remember guys, anything post-Episode III through to Episode IV has been wiped out. So any The Force Unleashed events you are holding onto can go right out the window. All that Kamino stuff you mentioned is no longer canon. As of now, the novel Tarkin and Star Wars: Rebels are your best bet for details on the Clonetrooper to Stormtrooper transition.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 07, 2014, 02:52:56 am
The premise of rebels starts along.

Quote
"It is a dark time in the galaxy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy/Canon), as the evil Galactic Empire tightens its grip of power from world (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Planet/Canon) to world. As the series begins, Imperial forces have occupied a remote planet (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lothal), ruling with an iron fist and ruining the lives of its people. But there are a select few who are brave enough to stand up against the endless Stormtroopers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper/Canon) and TIE fighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE_fighter) of the Empire: the clever and motley crew of the starship (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Starship/Canon) Ghost (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghost). Together, this ragtag group will face threatening new villains, have thrilling adventures, and become heroes."

Pretty blunt of way of saying: "Yea the empire eventually dealt with most of its post-republic transition problems "

The Clone wars ended 19 years before the Battle of Yavin. There are 2 measurements for timelines that even Disney abides by.

BBY and ABY(Before and After the Battle of Yavin)


Tarkin takes place 5 years after the clone wars end which would be 14BBY and already makes old EU event references(though no Kamino or the like).
A new dawn takes place 8 years after the clone wars end which would be 11BBY
Rebels takes place 6 years after A new Dawn.

That would put rebels at 5BBY which was confirmed by the shows various producers. It is literally the same timeline without the old fluff. Tarkin alone can justify a transition based on descriptions of the imperial military actions and recruitment. Imperial propaganda also plays a much larger part in the rebels saga than what we were exposed to originally.


No matter what seems to happen, the answer is clear. Any problems the empire would have had maintaining a galaxy spanning military force were mostly resolved by the time of the rebellion's uprising in both the old and new EU's.

Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 07, 2014, 08:59:26 am
But have Lucasfilm even given official numbers? Right now we seem to be just speculating. LFL could easily go one way or the other at this point. Maybe I can tweet to Pablo Hidalgo for an official answer, submit it for the question of the week on StarWars.com

Its been mentioned the reason the Jedi fell other than not being connected to the Force anymore was that the clone army over whelmed them..its been demonstrated in a lot of the material when the clone army attacked the sepratists that they have numbers on their side...
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 07, 2014, 09:03:14 am
The premise of rebels starts along.

Pretty blunt of way of saying: "Yea the empire eventually dealt with most of its post-republic transition problems "

The Clone wars ended 19 years before the Battle of Yavin. There are 2 measurements for timelines that even Disney abides by.

BBY and ABY(Before and After the Battle of Yavin)


Tarkin takes place 5 years after the clone wars end which would be 14BBY and already makes old EU event references(though no Kamino or the like).
A new dawn takes place 8 years after the clone wars end which would be 11BBY
Rebels takes place 6 years after A new Dawn.

That would put rebels at 5BBY which was confirmed by the shows various producers. It is literally the same timeline without the old fluff. Tarkin alone can justify a transition based on descriptions of the imperial military actions and recruitment. Imperial propaganda also plays a much larger part in the rebels saga than what we were exposed to originally.


No matter what seems to happen, the answer is clear. Any problems the empire would have had maintaining a galaxy spanning military force were mostly resolved by the time of the rebellion's uprising in both the old and new EU's.



Nah it couldn't....again the galaxy is a big place...the clones was heavily being mass produced before the start of the war and DURING the war... So were talking nearly a trillion of clones. I doubt that the empire soley relying on recruitment that they would be able to even cover that.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 07, 2014, 09:05:29 am
Hey...does anyone think "The Force Awakens" is a silly title for a new Star Wars sequel? I only ask this, because my older brother thinks so.

Anyway, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one. I'll just wait 'til it comes out on Blu-Ray or, at best, catch an early bird matinee ticket on the big screen.

The force awakens is a suitable title because there is no jedi or sith around anymore...its just some people that have the force but don't have the training to use it properly...the film title refers to two force users who are strong with the force and they wake Luke up from his "slumber" of the force..but he has to decide what to do about it..and bring balance to the force....which leads to bigger problems..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 07, 2014, 01:20:43 pm
Nah it couldn't....again the galaxy is a big place...the clones was heavily being mass produced before the start of the war and DURING the war... So were talking nearly a trillion of clones. I doubt that the empire soley relying on recruitment that they would be able to even cover that.

Some skepticism is fine, but there is a clear line between "That wasn't possible" and "I don't believe that was possible". Coruscant alone was described as having a population of at least one trillion.

Even if the empire only got .5% of Coruscant, that would still be 5 billion troops. This isn't even counting the other members of the Galactic Core, let alone the members of the republic.
 
The clone army was never anywhere NEAR a trillion clones. Lama Su in AOTC explicitly states that they have 200,000 clones ready for the republic by around the battle of Geonosis, with "a million more on the way". It took them 10 years to create 200,000 clones fit for combat with a 1 million reserve, either in development or some stage of training, most likely due to the refining processes during cloning(so we can safely assume that the process got better and batch creation was increased).

In order for your proposal of even at least one trillion to be true, the republic would have to be introducing 1 billion new clones into the army for at least 333/334 days of the year over the 3 year period of the clone wars. Tipoca city where the clones are made is only about 100 Km large. There isn't enough hoops anyone could jump through to justify that kind of math, to house, feed, clothe, and train that many troops, double so considering the 10 year training.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 06:02:19 am
Some skepticism is fine, but there is a clear line between "That wasn't possible" and "I don't believe that was possible". Coruscant alone was described as having a population of at least one trillion.

Even if the empire only got .5% of Coruscant, that would still be 5 billion troops. This isn't even counting the other members of the Galactic Core, let alone the members of the republic.
 
The clone army was never anywhere NEAR a trillion clones. Lama Su in AOTC explicitly states that they have 200,000 clones ready for the republic by around the battle of Geonosis, with "a million more on the way". It took them 10 years to create 200,000 clones fit for combat with a 1 million reserve, either in development or some stage of training, most likely due to the refining processes during cloning(so we can safely assume that the process got better and batch creation was increased).

In order for your proposal of even at least one trillion to be true, the republic would have to be introducing 1 billion new clones into the army for at least 333/334 days of the year over the 3 year period of the clone wars. Tipoca city where the clones are made is only about 100 Km large. There isn't enough hoops anyone could jump through to justify that kind of math, to house, feed, clothe, and train that many troops, double so considering the 10 year training.

I'm sure they sped up the process by the time the war kicked in. Because we had way more troops by the clone wars CGI show than in AOTC. Also to even maintain the galaxy..and conquer it...you'd have to have a huge number of troops. Palpatine recinded the order afterhe got rid of the Jedi..so that meant they had troops all over the galaxy or at least 80 to 90 percent of it. And that would still taker an enourmous number. So a trillion isn't far off..in fact its probably too small when you consider how big a galaxy actually is..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 08, 2014, 08:44:34 am
I can't make this any more simple than it already is.

A 5 million percentile increase in efficiency is silly when the decade prior is taken into consideration.

Opening credits to the CGI film:

Quote
A galaxy divided! Striking swiftly after the Battle of Geonosis, Count Dooku's droid army has seized control of the major hyperspace lanes, separating the Republic from the majority of its clone army. With few clones available, the Jedi generals cannot gain a foothold on the Outer Rim as more and more planets choose to join Dooku's Separatists.

This IS the war kicking in.

From the First episode of the CGI show

Quote
A galaxy divided by war! Peaceful worlds must choose sides or face the threat of invasion. Republic and Separatist armies vie for the allegiance of neutral planets. Desperate to build a Republic supply base on the system of Toydaria, Jedi Master Yoda travels to secret negotiations on a remote neutral moon....

Then there is ROTS where even Obi wan laments on how the republic is running low on the cruisers it needs to successfully transport troops.

The canon is pretty clear that the Republic didn't win the war on number of troops. It won because it had the greatest support from member planets. The empire would not have needed Troops on nearly every planet. This is silly considering that the Emperor became everyone's Waifu in ROTS.

Even in the TV show, the republic set up remote waypoints on barren or lifeless planets which could be used to measure activity in a sector. If those waypoints ever went down or stopped responding, then, and only then would the republic commit resources to that sector. There is little reason as to why the empire would not do the same for any planet no deemed important enough for  committed defense.

It's not like it takes long to get anywhere in the star wars universe anyway. Ships are seemingly jumping from one half of the galaxy in matters of hours, days or a week or two.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 09:34:50 am
I can't make this any more simple than it already is.

A 5 million percentile increase in efficiency is silly when the decade prior is taken into consideration.

Opening credits to the CGI film:

This IS the war kicking in.

From the First episode of the CGI show

Then there is ROTS where even Obi wan laments on how the republic is running low on the cruisers it needs to successfully transport troops.

The canon is pretty clear that the Republic didn't win the war on number of troops. It won because it had the greatest support from member planets. The empire would not have needed Troops on nearly every planet. This is silly considering that the Emperor became everyone's Waifu in ROTS.

Even in the TV show, the republic set up remote waypoints on barren or lifeless planets which could be used to measure activity in a sector. If those waypoints ever went down or stopped responding, then, and only then would the republic commit resources to that sector. There is little reason as to why the empire would not do the same for any planet no deemed important enough for  committed defense.

It's not like it takes long to get anywhere in the star wars universe anyway. Ships are seemingly jumping from one half of the galaxy in matters of hours, days or a week or two.

Really..except for the fact that the imperials are still around 30 years later after Jedi..Do you know what that means?

It means the empire reach was vast in the galaxy and far reaching.
That they had the infrustructure to have that reach and embed themselves in the galaxy
And that the army responsible for getting them to that level was VAST indeed. Which is why it isn't easy to have just gotten rid of what was left of the empire film.
You can use the spin off material that's beenthrown out of official canon all you like. You just don't want to admit that there is a big gaping polthole over the clones and the strom trooper recruting replacements..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 08, 2014, 10:22:30 am
Really..except for the fact that the imperials are still around 30 years later after Jedi..Do you know what that means?

Nothing. It's called hiding. The rebels did it the entire original trilogy. The only major offensive the rebels ever canonically take against the empire(since the old EU is wiped out) was the Battle of Endor and that was a last ditch effort which would have ended the rebellion if it had failed.

Quote
It means the empire reach was vast in the galaxy and far reaching.
That they had the infrustructure to have that reach and embed themselves in the galaxy

Yes. It's called having absolute power. Symptoms may include little to no opposition and unwavering loyalty from your population. AKA Revenge of the Sith.

Quote
And that the army responsible for getting them to that level was VAST indeed. Which is why it isn't easy to have just gotten rid of what was left of the empire film.

Again you provide little justification for the empire to have installments on the majority of planets, when *most* of the important members of the galactic republic were almost completely loyal to Palpatine. The Outer Rims were a source of trouble during the clone wars, and continued to be a problem until Grand Moff Tarkin was appointed and enacted the Tarkin Doctrine.

In a new hope, it is known that Imperials have made contact with Tatooine, that they occasionally check up on it(Because of Jabba's smuggling), but never once do are we subject to confirmation to a permanent imperial presence in the film. The only reason imperials are on Tatooine at all in that film is because of the escape pod jettisoned from the Tantive IV containing the Death star plans.

Quote
You can use the spin off material that's beenthrown out of official canon all you like. You just don't want to admit that there is a big gaping polthole over the clones and the strom trooper recruting replacements..

Pretty much every post I've made in the last page is using nothing but canon sources. So again, you just can't accept the facts(oh the irony)

Clone wars CGI film is canon
Clone wars CGI cartoon is canon
Prequels and Originals are canon
Rebels is Canon
And the Novel "Tarkin" is Canon.
   
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 10:28:50 am

Quote
Nothing. It's called hiding. The rebels did it the entire original trilogy. The
only major offensive the rebels ever canonically take against the empire(since
the old EU is wiped out) was the Battle of Endor and that was a last ditch
effort which would have ended the rebellion if it had failed.

Wrong...they've been fighting since jedi..and in the open.

Quote
Yes. It's called having absolute power. Symptoms may include little to no
opposition and unwavering loyalty from your population. AKA Revenge of the
Sith.

Yes the same film showing the countless armies of Clone troopers overwhelming the Jedi.VAST army..that no ammount of recruiting could replace the army that was in place..


Quote
Again you provide little justification for the empire to have installments on
the majority of planets, when *most* of the important members of the galactic
republic were almost completely loyal to Palpatine. The Outer Rims were a source
of trouble during the clone wars, and continued to be a problem until Grand Moff
Tarkin was appointed and enacted the Tarkin Doctrine.


Again not really canon anymore..

Quote
In a new hope, it is known that Imperials have made contact with Tatooine, that
they occasionally check up on it(Because of Jabba's smuggling), but never once
do are we subject to confirmation to a permanent imperial presence in the film.
The only reason imperials are on Tatooine at all in that film is because of the
escape pod jettisoned from the Tantive IV containing the Death star plans.

The imperials had a presence on Tatooine...they was stationed at the space ports..that's the difference between the empire and the republic...they only had presence on certain worlds..and never enforced their presence..the empire did..or have you not seen rebels and how they act on backwater worlds...

Quote
Pretty much every post I've made in the last page is using nothing but canon
sources. So again, you just can't accept the facts(oh the irony)

Not really. Many of what you said have been in the EU and EU alone. Not actual facts since the films haven't SPELT IT OUT yet.
Quote
Clone wars CGI film is canon
Clone wars CGI cartoon is canon
Prequels
and Originals are canon
Rebels is Canon
And the Novel "Tarkin" is Canon.
Tarkin isn't canon mate...not officially..even the writer doesn't really know if its part of official canon yet..
   
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 08, 2014, 12:01:53 pm
Wrong...they've been fighting since jedi..and in the open.

Which you have no evidence of. ROTJ:

Death star II was destroyed
Imperial Navy scattered
The galaxy itself engaged in victory celebrations destroying imperial statues and emplacements. Not even Coruscant cared that the empire had fallen, and that was the central hub of imperial power.

The trailer in addition:
Shows Stormtroopers
X-wings scrambling on an otherwise peaceful looking planet
Talk about an awakening power

I don't see how you can translate that to anything but: "The empire is returning in force once again".
You seem to take it as:  "The empire is always there but we're going to make it look cool even though a conflict happens every saturday morning"

Quote
Yes the same film showing the countless armies of Clone troopers overwhelming the Jedi.VAST army..that no ammount of recruiting could replace the army that was in place..

Man...if your definition of countless is:
6 troopers killing Ayla Secura
5-7 killing Ki-Adi Mundi
2 pilots killing Plo Koon
2 Scouts killing a Jedi Master on her speeder
and About 6-10(probably, we only ever saw 2 of them on screen at the jedi temple and 1000 troops sounds more than enough to kill younglings and padawans) battalions of about 100 troops each killing children or adolescents.

I really don't know what to say. Even Commander Cody didn't bother to send troops after Obi wan, he just shot him with artillery


Quote
Again not really canon anymore..

Tarkin is canon see below. Covering your ears and pretending it isn't doesn't make you look good.

Quote
The imperials had a presence on Tatooine...they was stationed at the space ports..that's the difference between the empire and the republic...they only had presence on certain worlds..and never enforced their presence..the empire did..or have you not seen rebels and how they act on backwater worlds...

Again, I already explained this. Prior to the Tantive IV incident in A new hope we don't have any indication of a permanent imperial presence on Tatooine(unless Rebels clears this up eventually). If the Imperials had a presence on Tatooine, then the first thing they would have done when the escape pod was launched and cleared their range, was to contact that imperials down below and have them search for the pod and report back.

Instead, they actually formed up 2 detachments. One to search the Dune sea and the other to watch the space port, so that the plans could not leave the planet. HENCE the imperial star destroyer chase scene. The empire didn't want to lose the death star plans again.

Quote
Not really. Many of what you said have been in the EU and EU alone. Not actual facts since the films haven't SPELT IT OUT yet.

Outside of the population of Coruscant, and the heavily suggestive evidence in the new trailer that the imperials are coming out of hiding please name me statements on this page that references the non canon EU.


Quote
Tarkin isn't canon mate...not officially..even the writer doesn't really know if its part of official canon yet..

Yes it is. (http://www.starwars.com/news/disney-publishing-worldwide-and-random-house-announce-relaunch-of-star-wars-adult-fiction-line)

   
Quote
Going forward, Lucasfilm has begun mapping out the narrative future of Star Wars storytelling that will appear on film and television and in other media so that all projects will benefit from real-time collaboration and alignment. The future Star Wars novels from Disney Publishing Worldwide and Del Rey Books will now be part of the official Star Wars canon as reflected on upcoming TV and movie screens.

Guess who publishes Tarkin?

SPOILER: [spoiler]Del Rey[/spoiler]
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 12:12:26 pm
Which you have no evidence of. ROTJ:


And neither do you. Its speculation on you're part..but my speculation is logical considering the timeline AND the fact that its been clearly estabilshed by the films that the clone army is huge. Its never been estabilshed on the size of the stormtrooper army. Its never been estabilshed when exactly the Troopers died or anything else. So i suggest you get off you're EU high cannon and stop acting like you are 100 percent correct on the thing.

And again the Writer who was interviewed wasn't sure how much of Tarkin was part of ACTUAL canon. So that's another indication you haven't even looked in on the subject or you would know exactly what i was referring to..the publisher means nothing since they also can do the Star Wars legends boks..EU material.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 08, 2014, 12:28:30 pm
And neither do you. Its speculation on you're part..but my speculation is logical considering the timeline AND the fact that its been clearly estabilshed by the films that the clone army is huge. Its never been estabilshed on the size of the stormtrooper army. Its never been estabilshed when exactly the Troopers died or anything else. So i suggest you get off you're EU high cannon and stop acting like you are 100 percent correct on the thing.

And again the Writer who was interviewed wasn't sure how much of Tarkin was part of ACTUAL canon. So that's another indication you haven't even looked in on the subject or you would know exactly what i was referring to..the publisher means nothing since they also can do the Star Wars legends boks..EU material.

I already did the math for you. There is nothing logical about your speculation. Literally nothing.

I gave you a number that was explicity stated in Attack of the Clones when Obi wan was visiting Kamino. That number is 200,000 with 1 million in production/reserve. Again, your ignorance is astounding.

If it's never been established when clones die then your entire argument is meanignless, because your entire argument hinges on the fact that clones were dying faster than the empire could replace them with recruitment.

You're holding me to an exact standard of interpretation while not holding yourself to the same standard. You're a hypocrite and trying to cop out.

This last gem is the most hilarious though. I don't care what the writer thinks. I care about what Disney thinks, and since you seem to have a reading comprehension problem, I'll spell it out for you again.

Quote
Going forward, Lucasfilm has begun mapping out the narrative future of Star Wars storytelling that will appear on film and television and in other media so that all projects will benefit from real-time collaboration and alignment. The future Star Wars novels from Disney Publishing Worldwide and Del Rey Books will now be part of the official Star Wars canon as reflected on upcoming TV and movie screens.

This is straight from Disney itself. You are literally in self denial.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 08, 2014, 12:50:15 pm
Yeah, I've stayed out of this argument because the new canon isn't being acknowledged. Like JRcade said, Tarkin is canon. Tarkin also references EU elements which bring only those referenced elements into canon.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 01:35:47 pm
Quote
I already did the math for you. There is nothing logical about your speculation. Literally nothing.
Because you're stupid that's why..Oh the empire can replace mass produced clones with normal human stormtroopers..you're logic is silly to say the least..
Quote

I gave you a number that was explicity stated in Attack of the Clones when Obi wan was visiting Kamino. That number is 200,000 with 1 million in production/reserve. Again, your ignorance is astounding.
No because you are assuming that that was the STANDARD number after the original shipment..when it was obvious that the number whould rise because they are in a WAR situation.  So its  a you who is ignorant.
Quote
If it's never been established when clones die then your entire argument is meanignless, because your entire argument hinges on the fact that clones were dying faster than the empire could replace them with recruitment.

In ever said it was establish for gods sake..you were the one who said they died at a certain age..and that the empire replaced them all which i'm disputing that they would be able to replace them with the EXACT number. Stop trying to turn something i never said.

Quote
You're holding me to an exact standard of interpretation while not holding yourself to the same standard. You're a hypocrite and trying to cop out.

I think you are talking about yourself not me.

Quote
This last gem is the most hilarious though. I don't care what the writer thinks. I care about what Disney thinks, and since you seem to have a reading comprehension problem, I'll spell it out for you again.

The writer is the one who came up with the story..if Lucasfilm (not disney..cant get that right even)   hasn't told him if the stuff he wrote is proper canon..then of course its a concern.
Quote
This is straight from Disney itself. You are literally in self denial.

Speaking from the guy who is using Disney as  asource..its Lucasfilm who are in charge of the canon not Disney. Disney owns lucasfilm. Lucasfilm handles everything Star Wars..like Marvel handles everything MARVEL. Again learn what you are talking about.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 08, 2014, 01:40:05 pm
Yeah, I've stayed out of this argument because the new canon isn't being acknowledged. Like JRcade said, Tarkin is canon. Tarkin also references EU elements which bring only those referenced elements into canon.
Like i said the writer isn't sure..which isn't a good thing..New Dawn is proper canon...but Tarkin shouldn't have any doubts. So if the writer has doubts then i'm not going to use Tarkin as proper canon...he wouldn't say it if lucasfilm assured him its canon proper.Anyway i',  not wasting time on jarcade and his nonsense logic and EU logic tomfoolerly.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 08, 2014, 06:02:33 pm
Like i said the writer isn't sure..which isn't a good thing..New Dawn is proper canon...but Tarkin shouldn't have any doubts. So if the writer has doubts then i'm not going to use Tarkin as proper canon...he wouldn't say it if lucasfilm assured him its canon proper.Anyway i',  not wasting time on jarcade and his nonsense logic and EU logic tomfoolerly.

Dude... dude! So what if the author was unsure if it would be in the new canon or not? In the end the LFL story group approved the book and proclaimed that it is a part of the new canon. Tarkin is just as canon as A New Dawn, Rebels, The Clone Wars, Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, and the films. The author's opinion does not impact the canon status, there is no debate to be had. Tarkin is canon.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 08, 2014, 07:03:04 pm
Yeah, I've stayed out of this argument because the new canon isn't being acknowledged. Like JRcade said, Tarkin is canon. Tarkin also references EU elements which bring only those referenced elements into canon.

Again as I've told ROMJ, nothing I've said within this past page references anything BUT the new canon, with the exception of the population of Coruscant.

I've listed my sources at least 2 or 3 times now

Because you're stupid that's why..Oh the empire can replace mass produced clones with normal human stormtroopers..you're logic is silly to say the least..

Considering that there are a lot more humans in the Galaxy than there are clones, lol'd.

Quote
No because you are assuming that that was the STANDARD number after the original shipment..when it was obvious that the number whould rise because they are in a WAR situation.  So its  a you who is ignorant.
Again the numbers don't add up.

The Kaminoans don't have the resources nor space you're proposing to support literal millionth percentile increases in efficiency. I DARE you to find even one scene in any of the movies that claims the imperial army is standing at at least a trillion strong.

I've given you an exact number and you have done nothing but insist that your perspective on clone populations override actual canon

Quote
In ever said it was establish for gods sake..you were the one who said they died at a certain age..and that the empire replaced them all which i'm disputing that they would be able to replace them with the EXACT number. Stop trying to turn something i never said.

And I quote YOU on page 2
Quote
its now established that  the clone soldiers died due to limited life spans
To which I responded
Quote
The only problems with clones was their aging, which was at twice the rate of a normal human.

They were sent into combat at age 10(20). The gap between the clone wars and Galactic civil war is only about 20 or so years, so any surviving clones, from the first generation, not counting the generations cloned afterwards would have been around 60 or so about that time.

The rest of your response about Disney and Lucasfilm is silly and has already been rebutted.

Don't bother responding to my post unless you can come back with hard evidence that the clone army was at least a trillion strong other than "Look at all those eggman clones" sonic heroes tier nonsense that you've been spewing out.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 09, 2014, 06:49:17 am
Dude... dude! So what if the author was unsure if it would be in the new canon or not? In the end the LFL story group approved the book and proclaimed that it is a part of the new canon. Tarkin is just as canon as A New Dawn, Rebels, The Clone Wars, Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, and the films. The author's opinion does not impact the canon status, there is no debate to be had. Tarkin is canon.
Sorry but if the writer isn't sure than i'm not buying it. He wouldn't say that if Lucasfilm told him for sure that it was canon..so just saying that doesn't make sense Barry..since they comissoned the book there would be no doubt that it was canon..but now he is saying he's not sure. Logic prue and simple.And the logic of certain fans astounds me. A million clone troopers in ten years when the war only went on for three years is impractical. Unlike some people who can't use their logic..a million wouldn't even cover a small country on this planet let alone some made up galaxy..and then add in the loss of life..there was NO way in hell that..they would rely on that number of troopers without speeding up the process.And as was described they had a huge army for the grand republic which meant there would have to be a sizeable ammount of clones mass produced to even cover the galaxy. So relying just on recruiting alone wouldn't even cover half the galaxy. But what the hey some of you guys think the prequels are actually good..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 09, 2014, 06:50:56 am
Again as I've told ROMJ,blah blah blah

What part of i'm done with you and you're silly argument don't you understand?



Dude... dude! So what if the author was unsure if it would be in the new canon or not? In the end the LFL story group approved the book and proclaimed that it is a part of the new canon. Tarkin is just as canon as A New Dawn, Rebels, The Clone Wars, Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, and the films. The author's opinion does not impact the canon status, there is no debate to be had. Tarkin is canon.
Sorry but if the writer isn't sure than i'm not buying it. He wouldn't say that if Lucasfilm told him for sure that it was canon..so just saying that doesn't make sense Barry..since they comissoned the book there would be no doubt that it was canon..but now he is saying he's not sure. Logic prue and simple.And the logic of certain fans astounds me. A million clone troopers in ten years when the war only went on for three years is impractical. Unlike some people who can't use their logic..a million wouldn't even cover a small country on this planet let alone some made up galaxy..and then add in the loss of life..there was NO way in hell that..they would rely on that number of troopers without speeding up the process.And as was described they had a huge army for the grand republic which meant there would have to be a sizeable ammount of clones mass produced to even cover the galaxy. So relying just on recruiting alone wouldn't even cover half the galaxy. But what the hey some of you guys think the prequels are actually good..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 09, 2014, 10:16:48 am
And the logic of certain fans astounds me. A million clone troopers in ten years when the war only went on for three years is impractical.

Battle of Geonosis = 22BBY
Clones first being produced = 32BBY
200,000 + million reserve

Clone wars 22BBY-19BBY

Can you not do basic math? Apparently not.

Quote
Unlike some people who can't use their logic..a million wouldn't even cover a small country on this planet

So you're talking about yourself then.

The United States Military has 1.3 million active service members and has a global presence. If it doesn't have a base in your country, it definitely has one near it. It's called Power Projection. Look it up.

So reality check. You lose again.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 09, 2014, 01:04:19 pm
Yea, with modern advancements in technology you can pretty much dominate a whole planet with little more than a million troops.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 09, 2014, 02:15:59 pm
Sorry but if the writer isn't sure than i'm not buying it.
This is an argument of author's intent and it's affect on a work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author

Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 08:33:51 am
blah blah blah..i'm an idiot who haven't a clue on what i'm on about..quote people out of context..said they only need a million..when its mathematically impossible to do that..i can't count..yippee..

Now pis off kid..i don't have the time for a lunatic like you...How's that for a reality check? You know the SAME one which said i was FINISHED with talking to you? But is that offical disney canon?
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 08:34:41 am
Yea, with modern advancements in technology you can pretty much dominate a whole planet with little more than a million troops.

According to idiots its sanctioned by Disney..so its canon because Disney said so..because don't you know..Disney made Star Wars from the very beginning according to idiots like JA...
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 08:35:52 am
This is an argument of author's intent and it's affect on a work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author


One day there will be no need of authors for they will be cloned..and they will be able to write a story off the bat....either that or get a machine to do it....
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 10, 2014, 09:16:16 am
One day there will be no need of authors for they will be cloned..and they will be able to write a story off the bat....either that or get a machine to do it....

But the rebels destroyed the writer cloning vats?


I must say, I'm surprised how heated this discussion is getting.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 10, 2014, 09:16:44 am
I love the smell of victory in the morning before finals.

Ta ta now, don't hurt yourself.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 10, 2014, 09:20:01 am
I must say, I'm surprised how heated this discussion is getting.

It's not a discussion.

I've pointed out time and time again numbers and events from movies, TV shows and one new Novel, all of which are canon to support myself.

He's basically been doing nothing but repeating arguments from Incredulity this entire time and outright dismissing my arguments with no counter and childish quote fixing.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 10, 2014, 09:58:38 am
Guys, try not to make multiple posts in a row. If you want to add something, edit your latest post. If that option is unavailable, I'll talk to Will.

On the discussion itself, ROJM brushing off canon because an author wasn't in the know about the new canon (can you link to interviews where this is stated, not that it has sway on Tarkin being canon, just curious) or because Disney now owns LF is getting ridiculous. It's just a childish approach to the whole discussion. Fact is, Kathleen Kennedy and the LF story group made the decision to clean up the canon and shift all but the movies, CG TV shows, and comics and novels starting with Son of Dathomir and A New Dawn respectively to the non-canon Legends designation. This fact cannot be disputed. We are not discussing Mega Drive sales numbers, we're discussing a fictional property where it has been stated time and time again what is canon and what is not.

At this point, we are arguing against ROJM's head canon, which he can happily enjoy on his own, but really should not be passing off onto us as fact. I personally like to think the Tales short story collections (Cantina, Bounty Hunters, Jabba's Palace), Darth Plagueis, the 2D animated Clone Wars cartoons, and the Ewok movies are canon but I know that is not the official stance. Still, I keep them in my personal canon until they are contradicted. That does not mean, however, that I'm going to try and tell you all that Charal from The Battle for Endor has a connection to the Witches of Dathomir or that Bib Fortuna ended up with his brain in a jar.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 10:12:33 am
It's not a discussion.

I've pointed out time and time again numbers and events from movies, TV shows and one new Novel, all of which are canon to support myself.

He's basically been doing nothing but repeating arguments from Incredulity this entire time and outright dismissing my arguments with no counter and childish quote fixing.


No you haven't i pointed out that the numbers were wrong in the first place..you like the simpleton dog you are(yes i called you a dog) went into a tizzle and starting going all over the place.I tried to end it by walking away yet you still keep Fing persisting.Again it goes to show whsat's wrong with the generation of today...no logic..and more hormones than they can handle..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Aki-at on December 10, 2014, 10:13:35 am
I personally like to think the Tales short story collections (Cantina, Bounty Hunters, Jabba's Palace), Darth Plagueis, the 2D animated Clone Wars cartoons, and the Ewok movies are canon but I know that is not the official stance. Still, I keep them in my personal canon until they are contradicted. That does not mean, however, that I'm going to try and tell you all that Charal from The Battle for Endor has a connection to the Witches of Dathomir or that Bib Fortuna ended up with his brain in a jar.

I'm with you on that one Barry, I've done it with one my favourite films Terminator 2. I don't care if the sequels said Judgement Day is inevitable, I liked how Terminator 2 ended with the sacrifice of a machine that saved the future of humanity. I'll take the alternate ending as "canon." even though I full well know that the series has now consistently spit out that Judgement Day will always happen. But dammit my own personal canon won't allow that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EarXngYYlw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EarXngYYlw)

Uncle Bob saved us all. The End.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 10:23:37 am
Guys, try not to make multiple posts in a row. If you want to add something, edit your latest post. If that option is unavailable, I'll talk to Will.

On the discussion itself, ROJM brushing off canon because an author wasn't in the know about the new canon (can you link to interviews where this is stated, not that it has sway on Tarkin being canon, just curious) or because Disney now owns LF is getting ridiculous. It's just a childish approach to the whole discussion. Fact is, Kathleen Kennedy and the LF story group made the decision to clean up the canon and shift all but the movies, CG TV shows, and comics and novels starting with Son of Dathomir and A New Dawn respectively to the non-canon Legends designation. This fact cannot be disputed. We are not discussing Mega Drive sales numbers, we're discussing a fictional property where it has been stated time and time again what is canon and what is not.

At this point, we are arguing against ROJM's head canon, which he can happily enjoy on his own, but really should not be passing off onto us as fact. I personally like to think the Tales short story collections (Cantina, Bounty Hunters, Jabba's Palace), Darth Plagueis, the 2D animated Clone Wars cartoons, and the Ewok movies are canon but I know that is not the official stance. Still, I keep them in my personal canon until they are contradicted. That does not mean, however, that I'm going to try and tell you all that Charal from The Battle for Endor has a connection to the Witches of Dathomir or that Bib Fortuna ended up with his brain in a jar.

I know what happened with the canon revision. But its strange for the guy to say that. anyway the issue isn't even about Tarkin...i said its not canon you say it is..i gave my reasons you gave yours..the real argument was about the numbers OF THE CLONE ARMY AND THE IDIOT BACKTRACKING ON THAT NUMBER DENYING IT COULD EVER HAVE BEEN A HUGE ARMY AND THEN PRATICALLY DISMISSING THE NOTION THAT THE EMPIRE COULD NOT POSSIBLY EVEN FILL THE VOID OF THAT ARMY WITH THE RECRUITMENT PROGRAM. Its logic pure and simple..a billion or so wouldn't be enough. So an idiot who can't use logic and maths to apply to it..especially when the company and GL who made the films made the mistake in the first place and explained it that the Stormtroopers were clones which he estabilshed in the special editions..and now they're rewriting that AGAIN..but weith a flimsy explanation...goes to show that some are just willing to follow the leader without actually questioning it.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 10, 2014, 10:26:42 am
I'm with you on that one Barry, I've done it with one my favourite films Terminator 2. I don't care if the sequels said Judgement Day is inevitable, I liked how Terminator 2 ended with the sacrifice of a machine that saved the future of humanity. I'll take the alternate ending as "canon." even though I full well know that the series has now consistently spit out that Judgement Day will always happen. But dammit my own personal canon won't allow that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EarXngYYlw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EarXngYYlw)

Uncle Bob saved us all. The End.

You just have to see how the other Terminator films have been since then. T2 clearly ENDED the story with or without the delated/edited scene..and now because of greed they're trying to continue a premise which clearly has no continuation. It failed with T3(which i didn't necessarly not liked) TSalvation..and that awful tv show...goodness knows how this film is going to be..Arnie should give it up and go back to Conan..Although white hair Terminator Arnie will prolly make a good toy..
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 10, 2014, 10:39:54 am
I know what happened with the canon revision. But its strange for the guy to say that. anyway the issue isn't even about Tarkin...i said its not canon you say it is

Can you provide a link to an interview with the author? I'm interested to hear what he said in regards to the writing process. In the case of what you said versus what I said in regards to it being canon, I'll say it again: this is not a case of opinion. The fact is, Tarkin IS canon. As I said before, the argument has shifted into your personal headcanon of it not being canon versus my statement of the fact that Lucasfilm has stated it is official canon. There isn't really much more to be said in that regard, I just wish you'd concede that you are arguing against a fact using personal preference as your counter, which just doesn't fly in this case. Now if we were in the pre-Legends Star Wars universe, we'd have more of a gray area to work with, but in this new canon that just isn't the case. What is and isn't canon is very clear cut now: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_canon_media

I'm with you on that one Barry, I've done it with one my favourite films Terminator 2. I don't care if the sequels said Judgement Day is inevitable, I liked how Terminator 2 ended with the sacrifice of a machine that saved the future of humanity. I'll take the alternate ending as "canon." even though I full well know that the series has now consistently spit out that Judgement Day will always happen.

The great thing about the Terminator franchise, is with the whole time travel thing you can easily latch onto one timeline as your preferred timeline and ignore the rest. For me, I go up to Salvation, but follow both timelines - the one you mentioned and the T3 -> Salvation one. But that Terminator Genisys trailer, ugh. Not so sure I like the direction the series is heading. Sure Salvation wasn't great, but it really didn't change T1 or T2. It was just a story taking place in the future as a prequel to the future events of T1.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 10, 2014, 10:50:55 am
On the discussion itself, ROJM brushing off canon because an author wasn't in the know about the new canon (can you link to interviews where this is stated, not that it has sway on Tarkin being canon, just curious) or because Disney now owns LF is getting ridiculous. It's just a childish approach to the whole discussion. Fact is, Kathleen Kennedy and the LF story group made the decision to clean up the canon and shift all but the movies, CG TV shows, and comics and novels starting with Son of Dathomir and A New Dawn respectively to the non-canon Legends designation. This fact cannot be disputed. We are not discussing Mega Drive sales numbers, we're discussing a fictional property where it has been stated time and time again what is canon and what is not.

But the Canon was only changed AFTER the films were at their peak popularity! When it DIDN'T MATTER!

Sega won the Star Wars.
Wait...

Uncle Bob saved us all. The End.

Agreed, T3 was a bit rubbish, never even watched Salvation or the TV series. The thumbs up in the volcano was the ending we all wanted.

Not to mention, new Terminator has a Chinese T-1000.
Chinese Terminators, Black Stormtroopers? Is this the future we all envisaged? (joking, before someone calls me a racist)
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 10, 2014, 11:23:33 am
Finals not started yet at school so why not?

I'm fine with the posts preceding this one, now that we've established what is canon and what constitutes a proper argument using it rather than head canon.

Also agree with Barry, I still have old guilty pleasures of the Legends series in terms of novelizations which I still like to consider events(The Vong can still go burn), but I would never use them in an argument dealing with actual canon when such a condition is specified within the parameter of debate.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Aki-at on December 10, 2014, 11:39:45 am
The great thing about the Terminator franchise, is with the whole time travel thing you can easily latch onto one timeline as your preferred timeline and ignore the rest. For me, I go up to Salvation, but follow both timelines - the one you mentioned and the T3 -> Salvation one. But that Terminator Genisys trailer, ugh. Not so sure I like the direction the series is heading. Sure Salvation wasn't great, but it really didn't change T1 or T2. It was just a story taking place in the future as a prequel to the future events of T1.

I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?

So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.

It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 10, 2014, 11:44:45 am
^Wait, isn't Salvation the movie during the war?
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 10, 2014, 11:45:13 am
There are several obscure aspects of Star Wars that I simply cannot see them exploring again that I would not be shocked if down the road they make Legends material canon. Like the Ewok movies, for example. Little happens in them that steps on the toes of the films, even Wicket speaking basic pre-ROTJ was explained away as the Towani family actually speaking a different language which Wicket learned, but it was english for the sake of the viewers. Thus, when he meets Leia he is hearing english or basic for the first time. I just can't see them doing anything that would make the Ewok movies non-canon. Same goes for the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book. Like I can't imagine Ponda Baba will be revisited and his backstory will be rewritten. So into my headcanon those go!


I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.
Wouldn't future John instantly know if it worked or not the moment Kyle went back in time? T1's goal was to protect Sarah, and since John still exists the moment he sent Kyle back he knows it worked out - though he does not know that Kyle is his father. Kyle being sent back was a reaction to learning that a Terminator was to be sent back.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Aki-at on December 10, 2014, 11:58:50 am
^Wait, isn't Salvation the movie during the war?

Yeah it is but it's set after the events of Terminator 3, so it's technically not the war we all wanted to see (The one set in either the Terminator 1 or Terminator 2 timeline.) but close enough. Still found it weird John didn't act on that machines can learn and detach themselves from Skynet's programming which could make them good allies for the Resistance.

Wouldn't future John instantly know if it worked or not the moment Kyle went back in time? T1's goal was to protect Sarah, and since John still exists the moment he sent Kyle back he knows it worked out - though he does not know that Kyle is his father. Kyle being sent back was a reaction to learning that a Terminator was to be sent back.

Well we don't know how time exactly works in Terminator, does it splinter off and create a new timeline? (According to the trailer for Genisys, it does.) or does it just reset and causes the changes in time effect the whole timeline (SPOILER FOR GENISYS: According to the leaked script, yes it does.) when one film has both theories, it's hard to say how it actually works.

Besides even if future John knows that sending Kyle back in time worked, If we followed that timeline Judgement Day still occured but that can't be because in the timeline of the movies, the second time Arnold was sent back he managed to stop Judgement Day. So from the looks of things in Cameron's original films, time only changes when someone actually goes back in time and changes the whole timeline, there is always a maximum present until it is changed and... Well, I'll let the Doctor explain;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw)
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 11, 2014, 04:28:00 am
I actually think Salvation can be grouped in with T1 and T2 easily, I don't think it mentions anything other than they targeted his mother? John has no recollection about the events of Terminator 2 as far as I know?

So possibly the events of Terminator 1 happened but the events of Terminator 2 didn't happen yet... Until a further point in the Salvation timeline that causes John to send the second Terminator to protect him as a child that finally erases the Salvation timeline... Yeah time travel stories are wacky and sometimes make no sense but that would have been one way to try and fit Salvation's storyline in with the established lore of T1 and T2 whilst pretending T3 never happened.

It's a shame though that the Terminator series really has forgotten what it was about, an unstoppable killing machine and now seems to be happy about generic action scenes.

How can it?..History changed when T3 came out..as judgement day...happened at a further date..so the events of the war that was depicted in T1 and T2...happened at a later date than originally took place. So i can't see how it would fit. And now they're changing it again...
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 11, 2014, 04:31:27 am
Quote
There are several obscure aspects of Star Wars that I simply cannot see them
exploring again that I would not be shocked if down the road they make Legends
material canon. Like the Ewok movies, for example. Little happens in them that
steps on the toes of the films, even Wicket speaking basic pre-ROTJ was
explained away as the Towani family actually speaking a different language which
Wicket learned, but it was english for the sake of the viewers. Thus, when he
meets Leia he is hearing english or basic for the first time. I just can't see
them doing anything that would make the Ewok movies non-canon. Same goes for the
Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book. Like I can't imagine Ponda Baba will be
revisited and his backstory will be rewritten. So into my headcanon those
go!
Sign...if we were talking about minor incidents you'd have a point. The problem is were talking about something major and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The problem remains the same..mathmatically a galaxy is quite big..with our own solor system being part of over 200 billion stars. Which either supports several worlds/systems. So a million or billion clone troopers would simply not be enough which is why i have said they must have mass produced them during the war so the emperor could acheive his aim. Then we are asked to beleive that these clone troppers died and the empire could easily replace them by recruiting stormtroopers into the fray? That is something i don't think would have even be possible especially since stormtroopers (so far) has been presented as human/humanoid. Unless there's more humans atround in the galaxy..i can't beleive that they would get the same number of replacements for the clones that they must have had when the empire took over. The Tarkin issue is just a side thing. This however cannot be dismissed no matter how much spin on it the result is still the same.  There is no way in hell the empire would have been able to replace mass produced clones with normal people. Its obvious that maths isn't the school kids forte...tata...
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 11, 2014, 08:06:03 am
Sign...if we were talking about minor incidents you'd have a point. The problem is were talking about something major and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The problem remains the same..mathmatically a galaxy is quite big..with our own solor system being part of over 200 billion stars. Which either supports several worlds/systems. So a million or billion clone troopers would simply not be enough which is why i have said they must have mass produced them during the war so the emperor could acheive his aim. Then we are asked to beleive that these clone troppers died and the empire could easily replace them by recruiting stormtroopers into the fray? That is something i don't think would have even be possible especially since stormtroopers (so far) has been presented as human/humanoid. Unless there's more humans atround in the galaxy..i can't beleive that they would get the same number of replacements for the clones that they must have had when the empire took over. The Tarkin issue is just a side thing. This however cannot be dismissed no matter how much spin on it the result is still the same.  There is no way in hell the empire would have been able to replace mass produced clones with normal people. Its obvious that maths isn't the school kids forte...tata...

But how many planets actually sustain life?
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 11, 2014, 10:12:23 am
Aaaaand we're back to the head canon again.

Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 11, 2014, 10:23:26 am
DID SOMEONE SAY HEAD CANNON!? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZNIXEv5UJw#t=3m10s)
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 11, 2014, 10:25:05 am
Iloveyoupatrick.png
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 11, 2014, 12:23:16 pm
But how many planets actually sustain life?

Good question..but here's what we know...


Quote
The exact number of clone troopers in the Grand Army of the Republic is a
point of some contention. The numbers given, both in the films and the Expanded
Universe, seem far too small for a huge, galactic conflict like the Clone
Wars.

Clone Trooper Numbers Compared

In Episode II: Attack of the
Clones, Lama Su tells Obi-Wan Kenobi that the Kaminoans have created 200,000
"units," with a million more on the way. "Units" is taken to mean individual
clone troopers by both the characters and the writers of the Expanded Universe.
According to Karen Traviss' novel Republic Commando: Triple Zero, the size of
the clone army has increased to "three million men" by the next year -- a figure
repeated in several other sources.



That may sound like a large
number, especially considering how fast the additional clone troopers were
produced, but let's put it in perspective. At the beginning of the Clone Wars,
the Republic contained over one million planets. That's not much more than three
clone troopers per planet. For a real-world comparison, consider that the size
of the United States military alone during World War II was 16
million.

Furthermore, the population of Coruscant alone, at the end of
the Clone Wars, was somewhere between one and three trillion. Whereas the 16
million Americans who served in the armed forces during World War II made up
about 12 percent of the United States population, the Grand Army of the Republic
was between 0.0001 and 0.0003 percent the size of the population of
Coruscant.

Further Problems

The RPG supplement The Clone Wars
Campaign Guide gives the size of the Grand Army of the Republic as the rather
vague "3,000,000+ troopers plus support personnel." This might be more generous
-- if the book didn't go on to give the number of droids in the Separatist army
as one quadrillion.

That is to say, there are 300 million droids for
every one clone trooper. This ratio greatly dwarfs even the largest of underdog
victories in world history. Even considering the general incompetence of the
droid army, it seems unlikely that the clones could fight a three-year war
without sustaining massive casualties, except that the plot demands it.

So to say there isn't a flaw when there clearly is one is ridiculous. Furthermore take out the expanded universe stuff you STILL have the problem of size and not possibly mathematically covering that scope. The problem remains the same. Either they DID match their number which they would have to or they didn't. They created a big plot black hole..and i'm not the only one who is saying it or noticed it.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 11, 2014, 12:40:52 pm
Are Storm-Troopers/Clones the only military they have though? Do they just draft any local planet's own military seperately and the Storm/Clones are just the 'Imperial' troops?

Kind of like Marines as opposed to the entire armed forces of the US?
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 11, 2014, 12:51:19 pm
ROMJ seems to be assuming that the GAR was the only army in the entire republic that was fighting the separatists. This is an assumption completely destroyed by the first season of the clone wars alone.

Edit: I also love that we're going back to using non canon RPG books now for sources.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 11, 2014, 01:50:44 pm
ROMJ seems to be assuming that the GAR was the only army in the entire republic that was fighting the separatists. This is an assumption completely destroyed by the first season of the clone wars alone.

Edit: I also love that we're going back to using non canon RPG books now for sources.

And again you prove your stupidity because i clearly STATED remove the EU stuff and you still have the same plot hole.God what an simpleton you really are....
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 11, 2014, 02:05:10 pm
Yay insults. Because nothing says "I'm confident in the strength of my argument" more than calling my opponent names.

Just because the republic didn't have an army until the clone wars didn't mean there was no armed resistance to the separatists on invaded worlds. Both the twileks of Ryloth and the armies of Christosphis(which were more or less human) resisted droid invasions with native armies. The former didn't get any help until a senator from the planet begged the republic, and the latter until they contacted the republic themselves.

This is not even getting into respective war strategies from each side and their effectiveness.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 11, 2014, 02:16:36 pm
Yay insults. Because nothing says "I'm confident in the strength of my argument" more than calling my opponent names.



I'm calling it as i see it because you are too ignorant to SEE there is a plot hole and then try to insult me with you're nonsense on numourous occassions..and even trying to make out i'm using EU stuff to back me up when i clearly said ot wasnt
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 11, 2014, 02:47:40 pm
Because you've made extraordinary claims and have not provided extraordinary evidence.

You have still for example, not answered my question as to why the Empire would need to maintain a militant presence in the majority of the galaxy, let alone a ground presence when they have multiple methods of gathering information, as opposed to simply deploying the imperial navy/army when needed post intelligence gathering.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 11, 2014, 04:51:18 pm
Stop calling people "stupid" in a debate. No personal attacks.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 12, 2014, 06:37:39 am
Because you've made extraordinary claims and have not provided extraordinary evidence.

You have still for example, not answered my question as to why the Empire would need to maintain a militant presence in the majority of the galaxy, let alone a ground presence when they have multiple methods of gathering information, as opposed to simply deploying the imperial navy/army when needed post intelligence gathering.

Oh i dunNo because the Emperor WANTED total control? Wasn't that the point of the Death Star to maintain control and bully the other systems in applying to the will of the empire as stated in the original film? Isn't that the purpose of the clones in the prequels? Considering how big a galaxy is you need numourous numbers of clones to enforce any type of edict if you are going to turn it from a republic into a empire..its just common sense.
Lucas screwed things up when he used the clones gave various numbers and THEN in the special editions which are still being used as canon that the Storm Troopers are clones..since the actor who played the clones and their original template Jango Fett voiced all the storm troopers in these editions..which are curently the only version of the films peole can get now..Now that they have reverted back...to the original concept they still have to cvlear up the frigging mess created.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 12, 2014, 09:07:08 am
Anyway... we have character names!

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/7/47//bb-8.jpg)

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/7/48//poe-dameron.jpg?itok=NsBhkUuD)

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/7/49//kylo-ren.jpg?itok=8G-3G-MR)

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/7/50//rey.jpg?itok=srzqOgxC)

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/7/51//finn.jpg?itok=5hxFChgO)

BB-8 works very well. Rolls off the tongue just like "Artoo" or "Threepio". Wouldn't be surprised if "Beebee" is what they call it, and I wonder if it will lean female in its droid gender? Ball, Ball, shaped like an eight. Cool.


Poe Dameron is my least favorite, mostly because Poe is such a silly first name. Po without the "e" is actually a Star Wars EU first name, which looks a bit better than Poe despite the same pronunciation. Dameron is cool, though not sure if it is dam-er-en or dah-more-in. Shame that in earlier leaks had Poe Darklighter as a potential name.


Kylo Ren is great! Then again, it is just an existing EU name with one letter replaced. Kybo Ren was the space pirate enemy in Droids. Wonder if there is any relation? I recall Ben Burtt cameos in TPM as a background character who was later given the surname Baobab, another Droids reference. The prequels were also loaded with Droids elements, like the diner and the wheelbike and the podrace.


Rey is a pretty short name. Must be either a Skywalker or Solo. Also, wonder if Rey is short for something or a codename as a throwback to Ben? Ooh! Or what if Rey is related to Kenobi somehow?


I like Finn. Fuck Adventure Time, it is not the first thing I thought of. I actually thought of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Like Rey, I wonder if the lack of last name is because he has some important relation? Fans have been throwing about the black characters like Calrissian or Windu, but I wonder if they will throw us a curveball and have him be related to a white character?



The other three cards just reveal that Stormtroopers are still called Stormtroopers, X-Wings are X-Wings, and The Millennium Falcon is still, well, you get it. I kinda sorta wish they had different names for the X-Wings given they are slightly different models, but maybe there is an in-universe name for them, like X-Wing Mark III or something.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 12, 2014, 10:05:22 am
BB-8 is Ballin' /rimshot

Kylo and Rey are fine with me, but I don't like Finn or Poe as names. The X-wings will realistically probably be named a "Mark" something or other.

Oh i dunNo because the Emperor WANTED total control? Wasn't that the point of the Death Star to maintain control and bully the other systems in applying to the will of the empire as stated in the original film? Isn't that the purpose of the clones in the prequels? Considering how big a galaxy is you need numourous numbers of clones to enforce any type of edict if you are going to turn it from a republic into a empire..its just common sense.
Lucas screwed things up when he used the clones gave various numbers and THEN in the special editions which are still being used as canon that the Storm Troopers are clones..since the actor who played the clones and their original template Jango Fett voiced all the storm troopers in these editions..which are curently the only version of the films peole can get now..Now that they have reverted back...to the original concept they still have to cvlear up the frigging mess created.

People weren't afraid of the death star because it had stormtroopers. People were afraid of the death star because it could blow up planets. This is an argument in my favor, as discussed a page or two back. The US military isn't the top ranking Global military because it has the most troops. Any sufficiently advanced war capable technology reduces the need for an available land force and subsequently reduces the need for deploy-able troops as such efficiency increases.

Your second point is a good one, if Lucas was still the go to person for all things canon. He isn't. Let us explore this. Which is actual canon? The original, or special edition? There was an essay written on canonwars that concluded that the Special edition was the true canon, but like this, it based its argument on the fact that Lucas was head honcho. So how do we now determine what is canon?

Simple. Whatever the Lucasfilm Story group says or otherwise approves as they are in charge of the canon now and they had this to say.
Quote
He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.

Which means that every story going forward will have to consistent with the events in these properties.
So have we received any media to indicate either the original or special edition as canon? Yes we have: Star wars Rebels.

Storm troopers have differing voices. Lining up with the original films.
Imperial Academies on Lothal and Mandalore train young cadets to fill the roles of various imperial personnel, most commonly storm troopers. Lining up with the differing voices.
There was even at least one part in the original trilogy, even in the special edition(ROTJ) where the stormtroopers were different heights, something that didn't happen with clone troopers.

Even without such things, if the prequels were GL's "Original Vision", then the prequels would have been made to maintain continuity from the originals and the originals would have been produced with the prequels in mind. Instead what we got was GL rushing to change the originals to fit the prequels, a move that made him more of a laughing stock than he already was.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 12, 2014, 01:08:46 pm
BB-8 is Ballin' /rimshot

Kylo and Rey are fine with me, but I don't like Finn or Poe as names. The X-wings will realistically probably be named a "Mark" something or other.

People weren't afraid of the death star because it had stormtroopers. People were afraid of the death star because it could blow up planets. This is an argument in my favor, as discussed a page or two back. The US military isn't the top ranking Global military because it has the most troops. Any sufficiently advanced war capable technology reduces the need for an available land force and subsequently reduces the need for deploy-able troops as such efficiency increases.

Your second point is a good one, if Lucas was still the go to person for all things canon. He isn't. Let us explore this. Which is actual canon? The original, or special edition? There was an essay written on canonwars that concluded that the Special edition was the true canon, but like this, it based its argument on the fact that Lucas was head honcho. So how do we now determine what is canon?

Simple. Whatever the Lucasfilm Story group says or otherwise approves as they are in charge of the canon now and they had this to say.
Which means that every story going forward will have to consistent with the events in these properties.
So have we received any media to indicate either the original or special edition as canon? Yes we have: Star wars Rebels.

Storm troopers have differing voices. Lining up with the original films.
Imperial Academies on Lothal and Mandalore train young cadets to fill the roles of various imperial personnel, most commonly storm troopers. Lining up with the differing voices.
There was even at least one part in the original trilogy, even in the special edition(ROTJ) where the stormtroopers were different heights, something that didn't happen with clone troopers.

Even without such things, if the prequels were GL's "Original Vision", then the prequels would have been made to maintain continuity from the originals and the originals would have been produced with the prequels in mind. Instead what we got was GL rushing to change the originals to fit the prequels, a move that made him more of a laughing stock than he already was.

I never SAID the systems were afraid of the storm troopers. Can't you fucking read you idiot?! And then wonder why i get frustrated. The emperor wanted TOTAL control so he needed a large army to maintain and enforce control. The death star star was the back up of that agenda. Geez you obviously the film properly.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 12, 2014, 02:22:58 pm
A Large army was never in debate. It was how large the army needed to be. There are 2 contentions:

1) Your assertion that the army needed to be in the trillions. A number that was never supported outside of your personal belief.
and
2) That the stormtroopers were clones by the time of the galactic civil war. Something which, again isn't supported by canonical evidence. Evidence has strongly stated the opposite, that the clone troopers from the clone wars were phased out in favor of recruitment/conscription. Humans are plentiful enough in the star wars universe as demonstrated by the movies.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 12, 2014, 04:10:52 pm
Can't you fucking read you idiot?!

This sort of thing right here needs to stop now. Debate, but stop with the insults. One more will result in a temporary ban. That goes for anybody in this discussion too.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JohnOfRage on December 16, 2014, 11:08:45 am
That sword looks so crazy. Cant really tell tho trailer didn't give much for me to go off of in my opinion. i hope its good tho  ;-D   
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 16, 2014, 06:44:35 pm
Finn is such a cracker name for such a ghetto fella
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 17, 2014, 08:15:10 am
Finn is such a cracker name for such a ghetto fella

They named him Finn because they wanted the whitest name possible to avoid giving him something 'too black' that would be misconstrued as racist.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 17, 2014, 11:02:37 am
They named him Finn because they wanted the whitest name possible to avoid giving him something 'too black' that would be misconstrued as racist.
People will still complain that he's not gay enough.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 17, 2014, 11:04:17 am
People will still complain that he's not gay enough.

We don't know that yet, we haven't seen the full movie, maybe he catches the gay and spends most of the movie with it?
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 17, 2014, 11:20:47 am
Finn Windu.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 17, 2014, 11:27:01 am
Finn Windu.

Fan Dango
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: Barry the Nomad on December 18, 2014, 08:28:04 am
Finn Windu promotes online ticket sales at Fandango!
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 23, 2014, 05:08:35 am
A Large army was never in debate. It was how large the army needed to be. There are 2 contentions:

1) Your assertion that the army needed to be in the trillions. A number that was never supported outside of your personal belief.
and
2) That the stormtroopers were clones by the time of the galactic civil war. Something which, again isn't supported by canonical evidence. Evidence has strongly stated the opposite, that the clone troopers from the clone wars were phased out in favor of recruitment/conscription. Humans are plentiful enough in the star wars universe as demonstrated by the movies.

Do you know how big a galaxy is...oh you don't because you are obviously braindead.
A million people is enough to fill a small caribbean island.
And by your assertion the captial planet had over a trillion people in it.
You obviously cannot count and haven't watched the film properly.Stop wasting my time. 
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: ROJM on December 23, 2014, 05:10:45 am
Finn is such a cracker name for such a ghetto fella

There's lots of blacks named finn. It wasn't that long ago that blacks and irish people intermingled plenty of times and then their offspring usually would intermingle back into black communities but using the irish names. So that goes to show you're ignorance mate.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: MadeManG74 on December 23, 2014, 08:34:09 am
There's lots of blacks named finn. It wasn't that long ago that blacks and irish people intermingled plenty of times and then their offspring usually would intermingle back into black communities but using the irish names. So that goes to show you're ignorance mate.
But are there any Fins named Black?

I don't think it's all that common of a surname in Finland to be honest, so I have to wonder if Lucas did his research on that one.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: JRcade19 on December 23, 2014, 10:06:48 am
Give it a rest ROMJ, I'm not debating with you again. Because you can't debate.

Come back to respond to me when you have facts rather than fan-canon and silly statements that can be disproved by reality.
Title: Re: New Star Wars trailer...
Post by: crackdude on December 24, 2014, 07:14:36 pm
There's lots of blacks named finn. It wasn't that long ago that blacks and irish people intermingled plenty of times and then their offspring usually would intermingle back into black communities but using the irish names. So that goes to show you're ignorance mate.
Disney has stated that everything outside the main films is non-canon. "You're" argument is invalid.