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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: fluffymoochicken on May 16, 2010, 12:14:09 am
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(http://http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn18912/dn18912-1_300.jpg)
Fish in a remote crater lake in Nicaragua are splitting into separate species at breakneck speed.
It has taken the lake cichlids just 100 generations and as many years to evolve an entirely new physical feature: very fat lips. Most estimates of how fast species evolve new features are based on models, which generally indicate that it could take up to 10,000 generations. Some models suggest just tens of generations are enough, but such rapid change has never been documented before.
Axel Meyer at the University of Konstanz in Germany and his team say the fat-lipped fish occupy a different ecological niche from their thin-lipped cousins, despite living in the same lake, which fills a volcanic crater formed 1800 years ago. They don't eat the same diet nor do they like to mate with each other – though lab experiments show they can still interbreed. Meyer says the fact that they do not mate with each other in the wild suggests they are well on the way to becoming separate species.
The new variety have narrower, pointy heads, ideal for nibbling insects and larvae from crevices in the volcanic rock, and fat lips to cushion their ventures into the sharp crags. The thin-lipped variety have sturdier jaws and extra teeth to crack the shells of the snails they feed on.
"When scientists catch incipient species in the process of divergence, it is important, because it is difficult to catch the process in action," says Todd Streelman of the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta, who also studies cichlid evolution. "This new work nicely matches theories developed in the 1990s suggesting that species could develop rapidly even when they share the same environment."
Journal reference: BMC Biology, vol 8, p 60
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... speed.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18912-fat-lips-evolve-at-record-speed.html)
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This is really fascinating, only 100 years? Any idea what started the change?
But dear lord it is a good thing Kogen is banned or else he would he having a field day with that title!
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This is really fascinating, only 100 years? Any idea what started the change?
But dear lord it is a good thing Kogen is banned or else he would he having a field day with that title!
Lol, poor Kogen. He missed out on so much fun.
I'll try and find more articles about this news story for you, if I can. Although it is remarkable how quickly the changes happened, this is simply how evolution works. Some of the fish evolved new traits which allowed them to eat creatures living in the volcanic rock, and these traits have allowed them to survive and produce new generations of fish with pointy heads and fat lips.
This is proof of evolution that we can easily see and observe. It's very exciting news. ^_^
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This doesn't make any sense.
It sounds like 2 different species have been there all along, but back then they were recorded to be all the same thing due to their likeness.
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It sounds like 2 different species have been there all along, but back then they were recorded to be all the same thing due to their likeness.
No, you are mistaken, because they are still the same species... for now. Lab tests have proven that they are. The fish have evolved new traits quickly, and are on the verge of diverging into separate species.
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I suspect what happened to make two different species so quickly is that one fish somewhere along the line was born with a strange mutation that actually worked to its advantage...Which is rare but happens. One that is also herreditory so it passed on to its offspring.
That will probably account for the speed in which the change happened.
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I suspect what happened to make two different species so quickly is that one fish somewhere along the line was born with a strange mutation that actually worked to its advantage...Which is rare but happens. One that is also herreditory so it passed on to its offspring.
That will probably account for the speed in which the change happened.
That's how evolution works.
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Do not get it, mutation is part of the genetic code?
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Do not get it, mutation is part of the genetic code?
Mutation is when your DNA changes in a way your body does not understand and it learns to adapt it. I think that is the easiest way I can explain it.
Basically even bad effects like a much larger amount of people today being allergic to peanuts is part of evolution. Scientists are working on the reverse so less people are, this would also be considered part of evolution.
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Shooting them all in the face will wipe that out.
Get everyone with AIDS and put them in an island. Blow it up.
Great success?
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So what I'm getting is that possibly this is a genetic disease that is originating a new specie?
That's stupid. That's like saying that autism is a new human specie evolving.
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I suspect what happened to make two different species so quickly is that one fish somewhere along the line was born with a strange mutation that actually worked to its advantage...Which is rare but happens. One that is also herreditory so it passed on to its offspring.
That will probably account for the speed in which the change happened.
That's how evolution works.
I know... But I'm saying there must have been an extremely radical mutation at one point that by fluke was more of a help then a hinder. That would have sped up the whole process.
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So what I'm getting is that possibly this is a genetic disease that is originating a new specie?
That's stupid. That's like saying that autism is a new human specie evolving.
No, because that isn’t hereditary... and it doesn’t have any benefits.
Let me explain in a simple way.
Imagine there is a white moth that lives in a forest full of white trees... It has one predator... EVIL PIDGEONS!
The moth is perfectly suited to its environment, the white moth can land on a white tree and be somewhat disgusted. Of course every so often an... (autistic) moth is born that is slightly darker then the others, this is a terrible mutation because it's very visible to the EVIL PIDGEONS and gets picked off and nommed upon very quickly.
But, then... a volcano (in Iceland) erupts and a big ash cloud descends on the forest killing all the trees which then turn black... Suddenly the moths are extremely visible to the EVIL PIDGEONS! They start picking them off and nomming them much faster.
Then another darker autistic moth is born... Suddenly, this is a GOOD mutation, chances are while it's still visible because its not THAT dark it'll live longer then the pure white moths on the dark trees. The dark moth lives long enough to have offspring, the offspring also have the hereditary dark mutation, the darkest of THOSE survive longer then the others, then the darkest of the next generation, and the next and the next until the moths are BLACK!
Thats evolution 101, and thats science jack!
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That's the example I was taught at school too!
What are you Portuguese taught at school these days?
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So what I'm getting is that possibly this is a genetic disease that is originating a new specie?
No. You're not reading the article at all. It does not mention "disease" anywhere.
Get your facts straight.
What are you Portuguese taught at school these days?
That's what I'm wondering. They do give elementary lessons in biological sciences, right?
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I never gave a shit about biology classes, my professor was usually high. Now I'm taking physics so I don't know a lot about evolution and cells and that stuff.
So evolution is basically just various adaptations to the environment/predators?
Well then it kinda makes sense. I remember now this funny picture in my Biology book about these short necked giraffes that couldn't get to trees and died haha
I still think that the evolution of man (history classes) is really just a dumb excuse to not believe in god. The theory is largely flawed. I remember studying it.
I did not knew evolution was related to these smaller adaptations. This is fresh stuff.
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So God made big lipped fish, chicks dig it and it passes on.
Evolution!?
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Fish with big fat lips are an integral part of the end of days George, you just do not know it!
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I still think that the evolution of man (history classes) is really just a dumb excuse to not believe in god. The theory is largely flawed. I remember studying it.
I did not knew evolution was related to these smaller adaptations. This is fresh stuff.
Rather, an all powerful bloke that we can't hear, see or smell and is everywhere and nowhere all at once, that we have to rely on existing based soully on nothing but blind faith magiced them into existence.
For no good reason but to back up the claim of scientists that we evolved and weren’t created by magic. Undermining his whole set up...
K.
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That's the example I was taught at school too!
What are you Portuguese taught at school these days?
I never had biology, it's just that I think he's not getting the point.
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I still think that the evolution of man (history classes) is really just a dumb excuse to not believe in god. The theory is largely flawed. I remember studying it.
I did not knew evolution was related to these smaller adaptations. This is fresh stuff.
Rather, an all powerful bloke that we can't hear, see or smell and is everywhere and nowhere all at once, that we have to rely on existing based soully on nothing but blind faith magiced them into existence.
For no good reason but to back up the claim of scientists that we evolved and weren’t created by magic. Undermining his whole set up...
K.
Yes you're right.. I guess that believing that some massive quantity of energy and all matter condensed into a single point blowing up out of nowhere due to something and then everything evolving just because makes so much more sense.
I believe that everything came out of grand quantities of energy. But if that energy came from anywhere, I believe it was from god. So if I believe in god, why not in the creation of a human race?
The evolutionary chain of humans is flawed. I remember some huge question marks in the chain they showed me in History class.
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I still think that the evolution of man (history classes) is really just a dumb excuse to not believe in god. The theory is largely flawed. I remember studying it.
I did not knew evolution was related to these smaller adaptations. This is fresh stuff.
Rather, an all powerful bloke that we can't hear, see or smell and is everywhere and nowhere all at once, that we have to rely on existing based soully on nothing but blind faith magiced them into existence.
For no good reason but to back up the claim of scientists that we evolved and weren’t created by magic. Undermining his whole set up...
K.
Yes you're right.. I guess that believing that some massive quantity of energy and all matter condensed into a single point blowing up out of nowhere due to something and then everything evolving just because makes so much more sense.
I believe that everything came out of grand quantities of energy. But if that energy came from anywhere, I believe it was from god. So if I believe in god, why not in the creation of a human race?
The evolutionary chain of humans is flawed. I remember some huge question marks in the chain they showed me in History class.
I never claimed to know what started our universe... But some magical invisible guy that can do magic and make things out of nothing is pretty far down on my 'likely to be the real answer' list.
But you are aloud to believe what ever you like... Which 'god' is YOUR 'god'...
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I don't go around saying "you are all wrong" but the evolution theory just doesn't make sense to me.
I did not know about these adaptation evolutions. These are fascinating.
I only mentioned the creation of universe to start my point as to why I believe in god ;)
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That's stupid. That's like saying that autism is a new human specie evolving.
Some people actually believe autism to be a small part of our next step in evolution. It is easier for autistic people to match colors and to sometimes count, this could be part of our brains becoming stronger.
Sorry for the late response.
The evolutionary chain of humans is flawed. I remember some huge question marks in the chain they showed me in History class.
While that may be true, there is far too much evidence pointing in the opposite direction that says it is real, though none is definite.
Which, even if evolution does exist this would not rule out an omnipresence existing. What is not to say 'God' just made things evolve him/her/itself? Why would their be outside of it's power?
And just to remind people this is a topic about a set of fish, there is no need for this kind of discussion to go on for another ten pages!
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Some people actually believe autism to be a small part of our next step in evolution. It is easier for autistic people to match colors and to sometimes count, this could be part of our brains becoming stronger.
Sorry for the late response.
Now this is really interesting. Imma go search on this subject.
While that may be true, there is far too much evidence pointing in the opposite direction that says it is real, though none is definite.
Which, even if evolution does exist this would not rule out an omnipresence existing. What is not to say 'God' just made things evolve him/her/itself? Why would their be outside of it's power?
That is an interesting point of view. Though, the belief in God comes from the Bible. If so, the first human couple was created, not evolved, along with other animals. From calculations based on the ages mentioned on the bible, that would date the human presence on Earth in something more than 6000 years. Yes, only that much. Which makes sense taking into account what is on record about the "homo sapien sapien".
There were lots of changes in the animal kingdom before the supposed human creation, dinosaurs for example. So evolution in animals could be something to consider.
But the 6k years of human history make sense, and would explain the flaws on the "human evolution", which would not exist. The Homo Sapiens and Erectus could simply be some extinct apes. That's why scientists can't make everything "click".
That's loosely my opinion based on loose facts. Since:
And just to remind people this is a topic about a set of fish, there is no need for this kind of discussion to go on for another ten pages!
I won't go deeper on this, nor will I respond to other replies here ;)
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Yes you're right.. I guess that believing that some massive quantity of energy and all matter condensed into a single point blowing up out of nowhere due to something and then everything evolving just because makes so much more sense.
I believe that everything came out of grand quantities of energy. But if that energy came from anywhere, I believe it was from god. So if I believe in god, why not in the creation of a human race?
The evolutionary chain of humans is flawed. I remember some huge question marks in the chain they showed me in History class.
The Big Bang Theory has little to do with the Theory of Evolution. You went on a tangent about the Big Bang for no reason. Again, get your facts straight.
Also, a belief in God does not mean that you have to refute evolution. Do you think that a divine being could be incapable of creating living things that could change or adapt to their environments? The Bible does not say that he couldn't. In fact, the Bible does not say anything about evolution or its processes at all.
That is an interesting point of view. Though, the belief in God comes from the Bible. If so, the first human couple was created, not evolved, along with other animals. From calculations based on the ages mentioned on the bible, that would date the human presence on Earth in something more than 6000 years. Yes, only that much. Which makes sense taking into account what is on record about the "homo sapien sapien".
There's no valid scientific basis for that. One very easy way that we can prove the universe is older than that (and therefore, disprove the estimated date of Biblical creation) is by looking up into the stars.
As you may know, a light-year is the distance that light travels in a year, which is 9,460,730,472,580.8 km per year.
The furthest object that we can see in the universe is over 13 billion light-years away from us, meaning that it took over 13 billion years for the very light of the object to reach us. The light took so long to reach us, that the object it represents is probably no longer where we see it to be.
Also, keep in mind, that by looking up into space, we can actually see and observe new stars and new galaxies being created in the far reaches of space, in the same way that our galaxy and our sun were created.
Our very earth itself is only dated to be around 4.54 billion years old, and homo sapiens to be a mere 200,000 years old. We know these facts through studies of molecular biology and our own tangible and accurate dating systems.
Although 200,000 years is much longer than 6000, it still isn't much. Our entire human history is only a short stint in the grand scheme of things. In no way have we been around since the beginning of time.
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fluffymoochicken, you misunderstood basically everything I said..
I talked about the Big Bang to explain why I believe in God, as I stated earlier.
Also, I did NEVER say that the universe is just 6000 years old. I said that according to the bible, HUMANS are 6000 years old. This is coherent with the records of our civilizations, which scientists calculate to have started 6000-10000 years ago.
I also didn't discard the idea of animals evolving. I just said why I think HUMANS did not.
On another comment, I would hardly call our dating systems accurate.
And again, I do not wish to disrupt the main topic here.. Anything else PM me ;)
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I talked about the Big Bang to explain why I believe in God, as I stated earlier.
So the Big Bang is too outlandish, but an invisible magic man is backed by concrete proof? :P Well, I guess the latter is easier to understand since it is a simple idea formulated in more primitive times, before we had better scientific understanding of the universe.
Also, I did NEVER say that the universe is just 6000 years old. I said that according to the bible, HUMANS are 6000 years old. This is coherent with the records of our civilizations, which scientists calculate to have started 6000-10000 years ago.
I also didn't discard the idea of animals evolving. I just said why I think HUMANS did not.
We homo sapiens have been around longer than 6000 years, because we can find archaeological evidence that proves that we have. We did evolve, like every other living thing on the planet did.
On another comment, I would hardly call our dating systems accurate.
Oh yeah? Where's your proof? :P Until you can give me some credible information, I'll listen to scientists who do have credibility on their side, thanks.
And again, I do not wish to disrupt the main topic here.. Anything else PM me ;)
Meh, without this conversation the topic would probably die anyway. =P
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Fluffy, I am not religious, nor am I a mod, but I would really recommend you either vastly change your previous post or delete it altogether as I think you have gone way too far here.
Opinions are like assholes, but there is no reason to be an asshole about your opinion, especially considering this is a topic countless people have slaughtered others over.
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Hmmm... well, if you think I've gone too far, then that's saying something. :P
Okay, I'll fix'er upper.
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I don't think any lines have been crossed with the post I see here, although it has been edited.
It does however come close to some passive aggressive style stealth attacks on crackdudes intelligence. Let’s make sure this debate doesn't boil down to petty insults.
Keep it clean and make sure you somewhat respect that people are going to have different opinions, respect them ect.
Edit: I see its been edited further and is now completely acceptable.
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It does however come close to some passive aggressive style stealth attacks on crackdudes intelligence. Let’s make sure this debate doesn't boil down to petty insults.
I'm sorry sorry if it seems like that. I certainly don't mean it to be insulting towards him personally. ^^;;; But I've worked hard to tone it down considerably.
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I just would like to point out that Evolution and Religion can co-exist. In fact I remember reading a Vatican official saying that Evolution is completely compatible with the Church's teachings.
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This thread makes me think of Eddie Izzard.
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I just would like to point out that Evolution and Religion can co-exist. In fact I remember reading a Vatican official saying that Evolution is completely compatible with the Church's teachings.
Also, my uncle is a Christian man who believes in evolution. He believes that the writers of the Bible added in outlandish supernatural events to their stories only in order to draw in followers from the other religions of the time. He instead sees Jesus Christ as a real person, more as a wise philosopher and teacher than a magician.
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I talked about the Big Bang to explain why I believe in God, as I stated earlier.
So the Big Bang is too outlandish, but an invisible magic man is backed by concrete proof? :P Well, I guess the latter is easier to understand since it is a simple idea formulated in more primitive times, before we had better scientific understanding of the universe.
Also, I did NEVER say that the universe is just 6000 years old. I said that according to the bible, HUMANS are 6000 years old. This is coherent with the records of our civilizations, which scientists calculate to have started 6000-10000 years ago.
I also didn't discard the idea of animals evolving. I just said why I think HUMANS did not.
We homo sapiens have been around longer than 6000 years, because we can find archaeological evidence that proves that we have. We did evolve, like every other living thing on the planet did.
On another comment, I would hardly call our dating systems accurate.
Oh yeah? Where's your proof? :P Until you can give me some credible information, I'll listen to scientists who do have credibility on their side, thanks.
And again, I do not wish to disrupt the main topic here.. Anything else PM me ;)
Meh, without this conversation the topic would probably die anyway. =P
First off, I did not read the original post. From the reaction it got I think I would not be pleased with it. If you want to have a decent discussion, respect other's opinions as much as you respect yours. I may have a lack of profound knowledge on the subject and a linguistic barrier to overcome when explaining my thoughts. But it doesn't mean you're superior and your ideas are the truth.
But to reply to your sayings, evolution is NOT a fact. It's a THEORY.
As such, saying "We did evolve, like every other living thing on the planet did." is as saying "my mom went shopping" cause she came back with a basket when in reality she might have stole it from someone else. It is not proven.
Also, I do not understand your comment on Big Bang.
For one, I stated that I believe in Big Bang. Some people don't, but I do. I never said it was outlandish. I said it was probably what happened.
Second, scientists have NO IDEA how it started. All we know is that it involved massive quantities of energy that came from somewhere.
This in fact makes sense Bible-wise, since the Bible states that god is abundant in energy (Isaiah 40:26, for example).
And you cannot say the Bible isn't scientifically accurate.
For example, in a time when people thought that the Earth was flat and standing on top of an elephant, the Bible clearly stated it had circle form (Isaiah 40:22).
There are many nuances of scientific truth in the Bible. Bible and Science can in fact coexist and prove each-other right. Many scientists believe that today.
You do know as well, as you seem to know so much about all this, that if the Big Bang had involved just less the smallest amount of energy that it would have collapsed on itself, and that the any little bit more and it would have made the Universe not dense enough for the formation of stars. Think about that for a while.
"We homo sapiens have been around longer than 6000 years, because we can find archaeological evidence that proves that we have."
Yes and no.
As I said, the dating systems are NOT precise. And there are no records of what-so-ever older than about 6000 years. There are no recorded cities, nor books, nor writings, nor persons, nor utensils, nothing. The older things are about 10k years old but with a wide error margin.
As for dating methods,
In archeology, they use Potassium–argon and radiocarbon dating for human and "mokey" remains (the first are good with lava and human remains, the second on every carbon based thing, like our bodies). These can determine with a pretty good amount of certainty some few thousand years old skeletons and other remains.
Thing is that whenever you hear that something is more than 100.000 years old, it's based on the dating of rocks around the fossils. Thing is these dating methods have huge error margins (many reaching millions of years), not to mention that the actual fossil might be CONSIDERABLY younger than the rock.
I took some Geology classes, sorry to know something about this subject and piss you the fuck off.
We can keep this going on and on, but if you want to argue don't do it for spite. Actually debate stuff and don't just say your opinion is right because the others aren't. Chill ;)
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Hmm I have problems in believing in god.
I have a close friend who is 24 years old, last year she was discovered to have a brain tumour and she most likely has a few weeks left to live now, she doesn't remember who I am, has very limited motor functions and barely speaks.
This is someone who studied and worked very hard, never drank, smoked or took drugs and within a year has had her entire life taken away from her.
Yet Joesf Fritzl's and Bernard Madoff's get to run rampant.
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We don't have to debate the existence of god, but going back to evolution, people tend to throw it all together in this "I didn't come from a monkey" mentality. We see evolution happening all the time. The theory of human evolution is that we have common ancestry with apes, not that we came from them. I was in a medieval philosophy class when one kid raised his hand and said,
"If evolution is real, how come we don't see monkeys turning into humans today?" This kind of brain-dead thinking is the reason evolution is still a theory, even though we know it's happening all the time, when necessary. When a creature has a random mutation that helps it survive, then it lives longer and has more opportunity to breed and spread the trait. I've heard a theory that creatures like humans and others with front-facing eyes have our massive brain capacity as an accident, because it was necessary to process geometry. Basically we needed that brain to be able to accurately throw stuff. I find all that stuff fascinating.
When the first dinosaur bones were first discovered, religious fanatics saw it as a challenge to their beliefs, since dinosaurs pre-date humans, and there weren't supposed to be any animals before us. They decided that god put those bones in the ground to "test our faith".
In philosophy there's the question, If god is all good, all powerful and all knowing, how can there be evil in the world? For me, I personally believe that god is in everything and everywhere. Not some guy in white robes standing on a cloud. So my answer to that question is that god is not all good, because it is everything.
I also don't believe in hell. That contradicts any notion of justice we have. Compound that with the fact that (depending on your faith) Jeffrey Dalmer could accept Jesus on his death-bed and go to heaven, and some tribesman in the jungle who has been good all his life, but has never heard of Jesus goes to hell on a technicality.
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Well I think that the main problem with religion and the reason why it is mocked today is because Catholics (the predominant Christian religion) misinterpreted many passages of the Bible, omitted some of them and adapted so much shit out of everything else that it's lost all it's credibility.
I don't believe in Hell. Why? Simple: IT'S NOT ON THE BIBLE.
There is evil nowdays because of Satan. From a decent study of the Bible it basically comes to an angel, Satan, challenging God's right to rule humanity and stating that he himself will be a better ruler. As the Bible states, he is the one ruling right now. However, God will, in the right time, go celestial war on him and destroy him, leading humans to a happy perfect life (again).
Very succinctly, that's pretty much the main point of the Bible. I do not know why the Catholic Church messed it all up so bad. Ironically, the Bible predicts it's destruction, what is indeed funny.
I also don't see how dinosaurs challenges anything. The Bible clearly mentions animals being created before humans (probably even succumbing to some mutations and evolutions).
But for HUMAN evolution, I can't agree..
Yes, we did not come from monkeys. There weren't even monkeys millions of years ago. There were the so called primates.
But humans have a conscience. That's something that animals don't have. Animals will react by instinct. Some are pretty smart and even have some similar brain activity patterns, but they cannot distinguish right from wrong. Humans can. The simple fact that we have a right and a wrong makes a huge difference between humans and animals in my opinion. And evolution can't quite explain that.
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Alright, the religion discussion is starting to take over the thread pretty hardcore. I think we should drop it before we start arguing with eachother. If you want to keep going and think you can keep it civil, then by all means go ahead, but I'm staying well away from this one.
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I myself am staying out of the religion topic from now on..
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I'd like to reply to that whole discussion, but the problem is, I know that what I want to say would be considered too harsh. So, yeah.
I'll leave it at that. =P