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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: cube_b3 on March 25, 2011, 10:25:45 am
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Jeremy Morlock, 23, tells US military court he was part of a 'kill team' that faked combat situations to murder Afghan civilians
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(http://http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/23/1300922234260/Jeremy-Morlock-007.jpg)
An American soldier has pleaded guilty to being part of a "kill team" who deliberately murdered Afghan civilians for sport last year.
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The case has caused outraged headlines around the world. In a series of videotaped confessions to investigators, some of which have been broadcast on American television, Morlock detailed how he and other members of his Stryker brigade set up and faked combat situations so that they could kill civilians who posed no threat to them. Four other soldiers are still to come to trial over the incidents.
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Some soldiers apparently kept body parts of their victims, including a skull, as souvenirs. In a statement issued in response to the publication of the photos the US army apologised to the families of the dead. "[The photos are] repugnant to us as human beings and contrary to the standards and values of the United States army," the statement said.
My first instinct was to say FUCK THE US ARMY, however it is the very army that is conducting the investigation.
But are they really to blame? Sure personal decisions can not be ignored, but a large portion of these so called soldiers are college drop outs and are basically stupid jocks.
Who are constantly fed voilent FPS shooters as part of their entertainment and that shit fucks with the mind.
I feel it is the White House's responsiblity and Bush who started this mess, and Obama who is continuing this by firing McCrystal (that's the name right) and continuing U.S. presence in Afghanistan. HERE (http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/us-soldier-admits-killing-afghans).
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Cube, are you serious?
Look, I don't condone this man's actions alone, but you are being beyond ignorant. How can you say 'US soldiers are stupid jocks'? I know 5 people that have been to Iraq tours and they are nice guys. They wouldn't do this shit. A couple did it for health benefits for their kids and now are going to school. Where they jocks? No they had to get in shape to get in.
You can't just say 'A group of people are X', that is like me saying everyone from your country are terrorist, that is ignorant. Also, FPS games have been on the market for something like 10 years, you can't blame the 'playing of FPS' games on demented people. There are always people like this in history. Vietnam had some pretty fucked up shit, more so than stories out of Iraq and they didn't have Call of Duty to blame it on.
Fact is that crime has been declining in America since the 90's, yet FPS games are a record high. Blaming games is stupid.
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As for this story! This is a issue with America. I don't think the government truly gets it. I hope this guy gets whats coming to him and is set as an example. Will he? Probably will, but they have no issue taking on guys like Manning, who leaked stuff like this happening via Wikileaks. Telling the truth gets you more in trouble than murder in this country.
We have been policing the world too long. I wish this would start protests against the war, but it probably won't. Its funny being in this phony war for 8 years, bombing and doing shit like this and people still question why 9/11 happen.
Did anyone forget that two of our former presidents bombed their country multiple times? How would we feel if China bombed us every 4-5 years? Then put up bases in our country and told us how to behave and killed innocent people?
The problem with the world is we think of ourselves as "X person from X country" instead of 'people'. We all want the same thing in the end of the day.
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The Guardian, huh?
If this is indeed, true, then yes, we will be tried in a military court and either suffer the penalty of either imprisoment for life or be executed by a firing squad.
And yes, the army has the responsibility to investigate misconducts among it's ranks.
This feels reminiscent of the Haditha massacre, a planned massacre alledgedly commited by a group of US forces acting on their own, but was entirely debunked.
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I wouldn't go as far as to say that the US Army are jocks and drop outs but it seems it is far, far to easy to get into the US military and be dumb as dog shit.
My girlfriend took the US military test for school and according to her the questions were so easy that an 8 year old could answer them.
While it does make sense that the not so smart types make better meat for the grinder then the countries more intelligent people, when they are representing your country over seas it isn't the greatest idea.
Only the other day an American fighter plane crashed in Libya, the pilots survived and the Libyan people rescued them, but as the Libyans were saving the pilots an American rescue chopper showed up and shot at the civilians helping the pilots killing and injuring the people they are supposed to be protecting!... With out even a seconds thought.
If you act like that, yes people are going to hate you and think you're dumb as shit.
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Cube, are you serious?
Look, I don't condone this man's actions alone, but you are being beyond ignorant.
I said a large portion, maybe I should've said significant.
I study in a Naval institution myself. The boys and girls in my army were born and raised to be in the army from generations. Their Ancestors were even in the fucking army, they have it in their blood.
Apparently it is really common in the United States those who can't do much else, join the army. Not to say I've not met some impressive Army Personalities.
For Example: I had the oppurtunity to serve as Dr. Amin Tarzi's ADC and he most certainly had the love for the Army in his blood coming from a family of Army Men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_Tarzi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_Tarzi)
Unfortunately in my interviews with American Army Personnel both here and in America. I've met a hell of a lot of people who were just grabbed and shoved in to the army without realising the responsibilty.
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It depends on the position you are going for in the military. There are computer engineers, writers, etc. Its not all shooting people.
Guys, learn before you post.
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Indeed.
I have a cousin who enlisted, he's an eletronics enginneer working in Communications and pretty darn good at it.
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Bad people can have any kind of job. To blame their video games is idiotic.
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Ofcourse it is idiotic if I said it is solely the videogames fault but it plays a role.
Nonetheless it is a psychological fact that seeing voilent things will make you voilent:
[youtube:fo7t3z3c]20LkYvEZOZs[/youtube:fo7t3z3c]
Tell me if it does not look like they are playing a videogame?
They feel no responsibility, they are indifferent to their actions. Our soldiers are trained, they know the dangers of using the weapons they have our army takes great care to preserve the soldiers humanity, they know the value of another life.
Where as I see US Army buying countless 360's with COD.
Look, I stayed in the starting it is the very army in question that is conducting these investigations. Obviously they have sound minded people in there, obviously higher post requires a higher degree of education.
But the difference is that our soldiers have had a life time of training, and even then they are shit scared of their entrance exam. So many students in my university where born to make it in the army but didn't, they go try every year and are rejected cause of our ridicoulously high standards. Where as American Army recruits 18 year olds and ships them to Afghanistan in no time.
It is a widely documented fact.
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US Army experience store
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/09/02/12 ... ladelphia/ (http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/09/02/12072-army-experience-center-opens-in-philadelphia/)
PHILADELPHIA (Army News Service, Aug. 29, 2008) - The Army opened the Army Experience Center, a one-of-a-kind, 14,500-square-foot virtual educational facility Friday at the Franklin Mills Mall.
The AEC, central to the Army Experience Pilot Program, offers visitors the opportunity to virtually experience many aspects of Army life, while evaluating new marketing strategies.
Located near a popular entertainment facility and an indoor skate park, the AEC features a number of interactive simulations and online educational opportunities. It is manned by more than 20 Soldiers who are available to share their stories with visitors and answer questions they may have about the Army. Although the Soldiers who run the center are trained recruiters, the AEC is not a recruiting center, according to Ryan Hansen of Ignited Corporation, who partnered with the Army on the project.
"The center is an attraction tool. There is no recruiting mission here," Hansen said. "Here it is more about changing perceptions."
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The gaming area lets visitors play America's Army, the Army's official computer game, as well as other games. There are a number of Xbox 360s plus networked PCs for video games.
The Tactical Operations Center highlights Army career opportunities in communications, command and control, military intelligence and technology. The area can also be used for group presentations and online education, Dillard said.
A large lounge area fills the middle of the AEC, and there is a small retail area that offers Army-branded merchandise and snacks for sale (the Army does not receive profits from sales).
The Army will run the Army Experience Center as a pilot program for up to two years, Walters said.
"We will be analyzing results of the various areas throughout that time, and determine if any of the innovations can be used as separate entities at other locations."
There are no plans to replicate the center in other markets at this time, Walters said.
"The Army is not all about boots and guns," Dillard said. "We want to give people the opportunity to experience the Army for themselves, so they have an understanding of what Soldiers do, and they can be proud of their service."
long article, just wanted to quote the part about videogames. theres more to read if you click that url
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I support cube on this one guys..
But it is a war out there. That's the main issue. No one should die for government issues..it boggles me.
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No one in this thread supports the war, I highly object it. But I think Cube is wrong assuming everyone in the Army is jock that dropped out of collage or that video games played a rule with this accident or any other type of violence.
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For the last time I never said everyone!
I said large portion, which I restated as significant portion?
If it wasn't significant this whole investigation wouldn't have STARTED!?
I also said it is the very Army in question, that are conducting this investigation, because there are obviously people in there that believe in the sanctity of human life that can not be taken for personal amusement!!!
Read my damn post again!
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It's still a sterotype that is totally ignorant. I see military people on a daily basis, and they have the same level of diversity as the population in general.
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It is only a Stereotype if I say all of them.
I will rephrase my claim one last time"
A significant percentage of the Army is eggheaded assholes, otherwise this investigation wouldn't have started.
There are people who have killed innocent civilians either for their innate bloodlust, desensitization towards humanity, violent entertainment induced behavior, or simply poor recruitment, this has happened it has a fact. The blood of innocent civilians is on the hands of US Goverment (as a whole).
Although lives have been saved the Aghan girl is a prominent example, democracy (or atleast a fraction of it) has returned to the stabilized cities (or city) of Afghanistan.
Bottom line is there are a significant amount of screwed up people in the US army but the opposition Al-Qaeda or whatever are also equally screwed up. But when soldiers kill innocent families, those who survive are screwed up so badly that they join the Al-Qaeda.
This is a widely documented fact, that several Americans acknowledge.
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Whether you say "all" or "a significant percentage" or "a large portion" is irrelevant. You have no clue how many there are, so you have no base to claim large percentages. Even if you are not saying "all", you are still pushing some massive number that when read makes it look as though you are saying there are more people in the army like those in your posted article than there are not.
I know you aren't an American, and do not live in America, and obviously are going to be hurt when you read news stories such as the one mentioned. However, you need to acknowledge that a good number of the people posting here are Americans who have friends, family and relatives who work for the US army and are soldiers. When you say a "a significant percentage" of army members are "eggheaded assholes" and "college drop outs" and "stupid jocks", you are basically insulting our friends, family and relatives.
Please do not group the actions of Jeremy Morlock and his cohorts with those of the army as a whole. What they did is awful and they will be punished by their superiors.
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I've seen parts of that video before (the shooting at the innocent people), but I have never seen the complete version of it.
I gotta say, it shocked me. What a bunch of douchebags.
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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ph ... 27/0602176 (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/photos/the-kill-team-photos-20110327/0602176)
WARNING FUCKED UP SHIT.
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Shocking... Is there any other nation with sicker people than these. Mocking dead people, how sick...*speechless*
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Whether you say "all" or "a significant percentage" or "a large portion" is irrelevant. You have no clue how many there are, so you have no base to claim large percentages. Even if you are not saying "all", you are still pushing some massive number that when read makes it look as though you are saying there are more people in the army like those in your posted article than there are not.
I know you aren't an American, and do not live in America, and obviously are going to be hurt when you read news stories such as the one mentioned. However, you need to acknowledge that a good number of the people posting here are Americans who have friends, family and relatives who work for the US army and are soldiers. When you say a "a significant percentage" of army members are "eggheaded assholes" and "college drop outs" and "stupid jocks", you are basically insulting our friends, family and relatives.
Please do not group the actions of Jeremy Morlock and his cohorts with those of the army as a whole. What they did is awful and they will be punished by their superiors.
Well said Barry.
I thought when the Army was sharing this information publically was enough to show that the functional Officers outweigh the dysfunctional ones. Nonetheless if you Google US army incidents you will find a bucket load and it isn't possible to compare America to another war zone in time cause no one else claimed they were their to restore peace and democracy.
[youtube:38ow9hjf]TaDE2pqPUXQ[/youtube:38ow9hjf]
[youtube:38ow9hjf]88nBDGYeVY4[/youtube:38ow9hjf]
I see, how you all are attached to the army and how my words can
hurt but Afghans are my neighbours and they stayed with us in Peshawar (an entire city dedicated to them).
Today Peshawar is a war zone, a ghost town. The thing is Pakistan has worked with the US Army for the last decade losing countless soldiers along the way. Our goverment has lost the trust of our masses cause we side with America over and over again and what do we get for it?
Accussations that we are involved with Al-Qaeda or that are goverment is harboring Osama Bin Laden. This BloodSport is nothing when US Military fires a drone attack almost on a weekly basis at North Waziristan killing civilians or even Pakistani soldiers along the process.
Then we have Raymond Davis, CIA agent who murdered 3 civilians while he was in custody US Army wasn't doing drone attacks. The second we release him we get another drone attack.
So it is hard for me to go soft on them.
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Shocking... Is there any other nation with sicker people than these. Mocking dead people, how sick...*speechless*
No, every nation has perverse individuals. Every war has idiots.
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Yeah probably. I am however with cube in that the percentage is larger over at the states. I mean things are changing now yeah, there are the well educated with decent intellect among them, but alotta people are really lost in their minds.
Ever since Obama however, even though many don't trust him, I have regained my respect a little bit. I think he's cool
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It was his decision to increase military presence in Afghanistan.
Furthermore the White House forced General McCrystal into retirement, and this man had several policies that made soldiers comnat more verifiable, with him gone his restrictions were lifted as well.
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I think he's just doing his best improvise on the mess Bush left on his plate. I can imagine Presidentship not being easiest task, requiring for a person to sometimes make choices against others agreement. I think the case with afghanistan is that after Bush's war it has gone pretty bad.... worse than it was. Taliban people that are a bit too fundemental in their religious practises have taken over. Afghanistan used to be a beautiful country, nobody would want it to be controlled by people that only know the hard way.
It's for that reason i'm happy all them old leaders are being pushed out. People have evolved in their opinions. In this time of day we have no need for close minded leaders anymore. All people are made equal and a leader "picked by the people" should feel no different.
Have there been any improvements lately, In afghanistan to begin with?
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Or the killing of civilians has lead to an increase in the number of Al-Qaeda soldiers.
Regression, severe regression. Bush did good for Afghanistan in the 1st term, but in the 2nd term he was a disaster and Obama has been much worse. Read the whole McCrystel episode.
Read Dr. Tarzi's book "Taliban & The Crisis Of Afghanistan", he gifted me a signed copy :D.
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I know I'm getting into very dangerous territory here, but that not how I see Obama.
If anything, President Obama's handling of the Afghan battle front (as well as others) hasn't been good, he had already stepped on a few toes when he fired Gen. McCrystal and replaced him with Gen. Peatraeus, a general that was loathed (and still is) among the Democrats higher echlons (who can forget the hit piece "General Betray Us" by MoveOn.org?).
Obama's mishandling of the Lybia operation is also apparent that he's having trouble micro-managing these situations. First, Lybia ceased to be a real threat to US security circa 2003, so whatever reason the US has in this war is not substancial, Obama did not make his case to Congress, which would at least be something, the President simply jumped in only because there was an UN vote.
And even that I'm not even sure what's going on, I don't know who is in charge here, is it Robert Gates? Or the State Department? It seems like the President is having his decisions being taken for him.
Update: Never mind, cube beat me to it.
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No, it's good that more aware people are stepping up.
As I was starting to think I said something wrong.
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It is only a Stereotype if I say all of them.
I will rephrase my claim one last time"
When Barry says it, it's well-put. When I say it you argue.
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Bad people can have any kind of job. To blame their video games is idiotic.
Ofcourse it is idiotic...
I agreed with what you said as well, and clarified myself.
I did that with George's post as well.
Your a respected member CrabMan.
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A significant percentage of the Army is eggheaded assholes, otherwise this investigation wouldn't have started.
Perfect rephrase, and I agree.
But, I don't agree with all the hate towards the war. It was a response to 9/11 right? We'd probably have 9/11 again if we just sat there doing nothing.
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Yeah, let's invade a country looking for a man you've got no proof against and he probably died during the 1st drone attack.
Then invade another country for weapons of mass destruction that never existed.
America gave 3 countries 10 times the damage 9/11 gave them, and they are still no closer to ending it.
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Yeah, let's invade a country looking for a man you've got no proof against and he probably died during the 1st drone attack.
Then invade another country for weapons of mass destruction that never existed.
America gave 3 countries 10 times the damage 9/11 gave them, and they are still no closer to ending it.
Maybe I watch too many movies or something, but I've seen movies where the Taliban actually attack the US Army. And they Taliban have planted bombs to kill people.
... Yeah, I watch too many movies.
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@cube
Again, I'm going into very dangerous territory here, but perhaps you aren't looking at this the right way.
Once again, there is the misleading assumption that the US somehow declared war against Islam and muslims in general and that somehow evidence was made on the fly to justify invading foreign countries.
However, historical facts do not mesh at all with the narrative that was created over this.
The problem that the US faced at the time and I don't mean 9/11, I mean other terrorist plots against americans supported by Iraq, Iran, Syria and others.
During the Clinton years, the answer to terrorism was simply a matter of pushing the sporadic "Fighter Jet Bombing" button and expecting things to simply work out by themselves. Swatting a couple of flys here and there, won't work. People thought it worked, but that's because Al-Qaeda never got close enough to hitting US shores until that day.
After being elected, early on George Bush decided to take it to a whole other level, you see, it didn't matter doing selective bombings here and there, because they wouldn't fix the problem in the long term.
Bush made it very clear, early on, that the US would not make the distinction between countries who finance terrorism and those who harbor them.
You see, when the US initiated the offense against the Taliban, it wasn't because they were in any way, shape or form, related to the events of 9/11, but they were the enablers, they provided shelter and resources to these groups.
The same principle was applied to Iraq, given the overwhelimg ties to terrorism. (http://http://regimeofterror.com/archives/2006/09/3star_general_reveals_addition/)
Oh and about the "fake" WMDs, let's rewind the clocks back all the way to 1992...
[youtube:dcs17xcb]9JE48XHKG64[/youtube:dcs17xcb]
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@ Cube: Thanks.
@ Max Cady: I think (or hope) it's universally understood that the whole government got bad intelligence about WMDs in Iraq, and they all supported him in that attack, for the most part. It's crazy that Saddam didn't just say, "I don't know what you are talking about. Go ahead and look if you want." He would have avoided an enormous war and his own death, but he chose to be a jerk.
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This is what I believe and most people in my country disagree with me.
- If we weren't so fucking nosey, going around the world and bombing countries out of suspicion just because they are weaker than us, then 9/11 wouldn't happen. Lets be honest, why do you think the people that attacked us, did it?
As it because they didn't like our freedom, or whatever lies the media feed us? Was it because they wanted us to turn into whatever religion they believe? No. It was because we bombed them. Same reason everyone was up for war right after 9/11. People don't think straight during tragedy.
The government took their power and ran with it. Doing whatever they want and even passing laws that shouldn't have been passed. See Patriot Act.
I'm not voting for Obama again due to his inability to stop the war. Its been 8 years, lets move the fuck on.
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Well assuming if the Taliban are behind the war, they could simply be pissed off America abandoned them after they helped them over throw Russia?
Remember Rambo?
Yeah, let's invade a country looking for a man you've got no proof against and he probably died during the 1st drone attack.
Then invade another country for weapons of mass destruction that never existed.
America gave 3 countries 10 times the damage 9/11 gave them, and they are still no closer to ending it.
Maybe I watch too many movies or something, but I've seen movies where the Taliban actually attack the US Army. And they Taliban have planted bombs to kill people.
... Yeah, I watch too many movies.
Yeah man Taliban are idiots, uneducated illetrate mindless manipulated bodies. They live in mountains without any technology, the closest they come to hurting the US is either with a home made gun or by straping themselves with home made explosives and blowing themselves up in Mosques (how is that killing Americans again?)
Thanks to the constant drone attacks more and more survivors enlist in the Taliban and the US makes those attacks almost on a weekly basis.
Most of the time these Taliban can't even come close to US soldiers, so they end up killing Pakistani soldiers and stealing their arms.
Watch the movie "In The Name of God" to understand the American Operations, European Operations and the Taliban.
[youtube:3d94vhqu]xAoTD072n04[/youtube:3d94vhqu]
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That is actually one of the major myths surrounding the Taliban. First off, they played no part in the Soviet conflict. The Taliban originated from Pakistan and took over Afghanistan long after the Soviets had retreated. The Mujaheedin were in part assisted by the US, but it was the Paquistani Secret Service that played a major role in the defeat of the Soviets.
And like I mentioned before, the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, but the US went to war with them because they were harboring and assisting Al-Qaeda's thugs, don't take my word for it George W. Bush made this very clear in his address to the nation on September 20th, in which he also made the very clear distinction between muslims and extremists, who in his very own words, says that do not respect Islam and it's tradition and culture.
If there was a country called Al-Qaeda-Land it would certainly make things a whole lot easier. But when you have terrorist groups with no paper trails, no clearly defined structure, but with cells scattered all around, some of them only require a simple phone call and they'll do their bidding.
But once again, many myths about terrorism get tangled into the cold hard facts, many say that terrorism is the result of a desperate penny-less man who takes his own life by attacking the wealthy (a myth largely created by the motion picture Syriana).
For the most part, it is quite the opposite, these organizations are not a rag-tag of individuals like the ones you see on a movie like Red Dawn, they have money and resources available to them (Al-Qaeda even has it's own PR and news agency, that creates fake reports on a daily basis) . The scenario in which the sheep herder becomes an explosives/logistics expert overnight does not play out like that.
And as far as an intelligence officer goes (if this was indeed a f***-up, it was certainly the largest f***-up of all time, when you considered that every other intelligence agency, be it french, Israel or Russian thought it was true), you might be the most incompetent officer in your field but I'm sure that even you would tell the difference between some vague threat and a real danger. The same way that I'm pretty sure the military can tell the difference between a farmer and an armed thug.
And long before Obama, Bush and Gen. Petraeus had already instated Rules of Engagement and those are very clear (even if Wikileaks conviniently edits video to make it seem otherwise).
And then enter Obama, a person with next-to-no experience, largely a victim of his own propaganda and campaign slogans who, like I stated before, appears to be doing things on the fly and not take things seriously.
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Everything has a reason.
I think these wars are doing good deeds. Even if we simply don't understand why. Maybe if we got Obama to evaluate and explain why we are attacking these countries...
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That's the thing, Obama already kinda messed up with Lybia and before with Egypt.
The "I apologize for America's Past Transgressions towards these countries" tour and quite honestly, it never amounted to anything.
It was already weird that President Obama only made his case to Congress 10 days after he personally decided to assist France and Great Britain in this operation. Like I said before, ever since Khadafi's nuclear weapons program was dismantled (due to the military intervention in Iraq), Lybia stopped being an actual security threat to the US. And, in part, it was thanks to Bush and Rumsfeld that Khadafi is only using conventional firearms to stop the uprising, otherwise he would've unloaded mustard gas on his dissedents as well as the coallition.
And even, Obama saying that he will simply hand over operations to NATO, that's really not saying much, 'cause NATO's major driving force is still the US military.
But then again, I do tip my hat to Obama, Sarkozy and Cameron simply because at the very least, they were honest about it, even though Obama dropped the ball on this.
But that is nothing compared to what my former PM did(he resigned this week). José Sócrates considered himself a major friend of Khadafi and commercial ally. However, Portugal voted for the military intervention against Lybia on the UN council. But, so far they did nothing, they are not giving any logistic support to the coalition (and the Lajes military base doesn't count, as technically the US is paying for that piece of land in the Azores), even worse, nobody spoke. Sócrates never said anything, DefSec Augusto Santos Silva has said anything, the only one who spoke was Luís Amado, the Foreign Affairs secretary. If they wanted to no part in this, they would not vote. That would be something. Not like this...