SEGAbits Forums
Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: max_cady on July 27, 2014, 08:43:16 am
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I just thought I'd like to ask the SEGAbits think tank for some advice on this matter. You see, one of my toughest goals for 2014 is moving out of my parents home, but it hasn't been easy.
When asked why, am I making excuses by saying that I still want to help my folks as much as possible and that the money isn't there yet in order for me to move on?
August and September are a good time to scout out locations since collegue students won't come back till late September, which means there are more apartements for rent now and readily available.
I've scouted some locations based on some basic needs: locations, proximity to stores, proximity to restaurants and my overall budget.
But it's the negotiation part to me that's a little hazy. What can I barter? In what terms can I get a tiny bit of reflief? Is it OK to discuss my income with the potential land lord? Just wanted to ask about it.
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Well, I don't think there's much negotiation to be had. Focus on finding a place that you can definitely afford monthly and go for it! I'm not sure what you do for a living or whatnot but if money's an issue, look for an up-and-coming area of your city that may be pretty affordable. Here in Rochester we have lots of nice apartments downtown that are very affordable and filled with college students.
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It's best to ask somebody in the same city for good locations and the like.
As for the prices in this day and age every apartment has a website with rates, there is minimum negotiation and it all really depends on your references and history.
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I'm a content manager and I telecommute. Hence I work at home, most of the time so travel expenses aren't much of an issue at all. Every month or so I go to the office over at oPorto City (1hr by train) just to talk, trade opinions and so on.
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Barter with every trick in the book.
- "My income would be too stretched if the rent was..." it works from time to time and you can just add extra fluff like you help support your parents, business etc or whatever if you don't want to give the image you're punching above your weight.
- Find any fault with the property, no matter how little.
- See if the landlord can give you any extra incentives with providing furniture.
- If you know the property has vacant for a while you could always raise this, furthermore depending on how quick you're planning on moving in can work in your favour too.
One thing to note since you have no previous landlords is they might look for some one who can guarantee your rent. In England the practice is to get a guarantor who owns a house that would be liable to pay the rent on your behalf if you default. Not something to barter with but to keep in mind.
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All I have to say now is that I understand the need for privacy. I really do understand this. The need for sanity as well. I understand these needs. All I can say trying to move out for the sake of moving out is kinda of a bad idea.
If you have a stable job, and you are not able to get fired. It is a good thing. Apartments are for people who are desperate to leave home. I mean really desperate.
What I hate about work. If somebody sees you being too happy, they will be against you. People are jealous of people if you know what I mean. I know of two instances from a co-worker being polite to another co-worker, and that politeness got them fired. Another co-worker dresses with incorrect attire. Another person at work keyed somebodies car and they made that person the boss of everybody, because the person with the car is using the job to make payments, and they want him to leave to lose the car. Two employees found love and are open about their pregnancy together.
If you lose that income ( which ever source it is ) your bound to lose the apartment.
Right now with the current trend of law, I do not feel money is worth it. Unless I am getting something out of that piece of privacy. I am actually using the space.
I would rather buy a piece of property right now, and be a wild man on it.
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In my experience, you don't have much to gain from negotiating; you may have a slight leeway to lower a monthly rate by just a little bit, but one thing you don't want to do (sorry aki, lol, gotta disagree with you here) is to imply that you'll have any sort of financial hardships or difficulty paying the rent whatsoever. Landlords don't want to hear that, they want to rent to someone who will be of as little trouble as possible.
They don't rent to someone who may not be able to pay his rent. Also, if you're too critical of the property, that might dissuade them too, since they don't want to rent to someone who they think might be calling them every day with issues. If it's between you and someone else, these factors may push them to that other person.
I'd say just look for places that are affordable to you, don't really plan on bartering. If in the process of negotiating you develop a good rapport with the landowner, then you can judge the situation and consider asking if a slightly lower rate is possible. Chances are that this can be done, but it won't be by much, so just look for places you can reasonably afford and consider any further lowering of the rate as a bonus.
But generally speaking, unless you're trying to rent in an undesirable area or you see that the property has been vacant for a long time, landlords don't usually have a lot of trouble renting these places out, so as a potential renter you don't have a ton of power.
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In my experience, you don't have much to gain from negotiating; you may have a slight leeway to lower a monthly rate by just a little bit, but one thing you don't want to do (sorry aki, lol, gotta disagree with you here) is to imply that you'll have any sort of financial hardships or difficulty paying the rent whatsoever. Landlords don't want to hear that, they want to rent to someone who will be of as little trouble as possible.
Speaking as both a landlord and an estate agent, discussing your budget with your landlord won't turn them off. You don't want to give off the image you have no money, no, but I think as a tenant you still have some leeway in getting some sort of discount and especially if Max can prove his pay which I'm sure he can. In real estate it's uncommon to give the asking price and I've dealt with plenty of people who try to get anything from £25 to £75 off and succeeded, only the really desperate gave what the landlord wanted. I'm not sure about Portuguese law but in the UK providing a guarantor is a pretty strong safety net for most landlords and only the ultra cautious wouldn't bother with a tenant that does have one.
Also Max make you sure you can judge the character of the landlord. I've found some landlords unwilling to fix the issues tenants have had with the property (From minor issues to providing furniture to major ones like their hot water cylinder leaking) and in the end the tenants are forced to withhold rent just to get a fix on the issues. One nightmare landlord I had to deal with was a landlord who provided 6 different chairs for the dining table and made a mattress out of duvet covers! Eventually the tenant withheld the rent because he was developing mold in the property and the landlord finally fixed some of the issues, but not all.
Though Max I'd add my experience is limited to the UK, I'm not sure what the conditions are like in Portugal at the moment, I'm not sure about your employment rate or if there is a housing crisis like there is one in the UK. These are all factors you'd have to take into consideration. During 2009 - 2011 in the UK, tenants were calling the shots as a record number of properties were empty and unemployment running rife, getting a tenant with a job was harder than prior years. If there is a housing crisis than you'd find getting a discount harder but it never actually hurts to try.
I'd finish by saying that just because you say you want £75 off... Or extra furniture doesn't mean you have to stick to your guns, if you really are desperate for the property you can at the very end of it just offer full asking price.
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There's nothing dramatically different from UK law. The only recent change in portuguese law is that rent used to be ajusted by decree, but that's changed.
Generally speaking most of the people who have landlords that I've spoken to demand at least 2 months in advance, other than that is roughly the same that you describe. Guarantors in Portugal, though are mostly for people buying a house or students that pay rent with their parent's money.
Culturally speaking, the Portuguese are encouraged to get a loan and buy a house which has been a debatable issue for years. Only recentely has the practice of renting become more common. And that's what I'm gonna live by for the forseable future.
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I would rather buy a piece of property right now, and be a wild man on it.
Fuck the apartment, you should do this.
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Fuck the apartment, you should do this.
I second this, buy a plot of land, fill it with fruit, veg, nut bushes/trees and live in the potting shed.
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Speaking as both a landlord and an estate agent, discussing your budget with your landlord won't turn them off. You don't want to give off the image you have no money, no, but I think as a tenant you still have some leeway in getting some sort of discount and especially if Max can prove his pay which I'm sure he can. In real estate it's uncommon to give the asking price and I've dealt with plenty of people who try to get anything from £25 to £75 off and succeeded, only the really desperate gave what the landlord wanted. I'm not sure about Portuguese law but in the UK providing a guarantor is a pretty strong safety net for most landlords and only the ultra cautious wouldn't bother with a tenant that does have one.
hmm, didn't realize Max was from Portugal. Changes things a little bit, as Europe may have a different culture to these types of these things.
In the US it's common to negotiate slight decreases in rent but typically realtors are the ones who are the best at these types of things. For your average person to negotiate, it's a fairly risky business, and though landlords price rentals with the expectation of bartering, the last thing most want to hear is "I may have some financial hardships." Also, if you're looking to move into a desirable place, it's likely that others are looking at the same place who may be willing to pay more.
Especially these days. But that's the US.
I still stand by my advice that Max look for places he can afford, and treat any reduction that he can get as a bonus, rather than looking for places that he can't afford and hoping that he can reduce it to his price range. But that's my advice. I agree that he should certainly try for a price reduction, but I'm not sure sure that he should discuss his financial hardships, as coming off as desperate (rather than coming across as savvy) typically (again, in my experience) hurts most negotiations for you rather than helps them.
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Generally speaking most of the people who have landlords that I've spoken to demand at least 2 months in advance, other than that is roughly the same that you describe. Guarantors in Portugal, though are mostly for people buying a house or students that pay rent with their parent's money.
Similar to the UK, however we've got a deposit protection scheme here. We had a notorious problem in landlord's stealing the tenant's deposit (The second month's rent) and just claiming x and y was damaged when there was nothing wrong with the property! Now the deposit is held by the government and only returned to the tenant or landlord if they can prove they left the property in good conditions/if the tenant left it as a disaster zone.
The only reason I said you might need a guarantor is simply because you don't have previous landlord's reference, saying that if you have an adequate amount of income most are willing to overlook it. You still might get the few who would still want a guarantor simply because they're over cautious.
In the US it's common to negotiate slight decreases in rent but typically realtors are the ones who are the best at these types of things. For your average person to negotiate, it's a fairly risky business, and though landlords price rentals with the expectation of bartering, the last thing most want to hear is "I may have some financial hardships." Also, if you're looking to move into a desirable place, it's likely that others are looking at the same place who may be willing to pay more.
Especially these days. But that's the US.
What sort of references do you guys tend to do?
Here in the UK when a new tenant is set to move in, it's normal for the landlord to ask for previous landlord's reference, three month's bank statement, three month's payslips and passport/driver's ID. Certainly even if you say you might needed a slight decrease in the rent, if you prove your pay and show by your recent history you're more than able to financial manage yourself as well as a good tenant, most landlords would be fine giving a tenant a reduction in the rent. Especially if it's a tenant with a decent job.
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What sort of references do you guys tend to do?
Here in the UK when a new tenant is set to move in, it's normal for the landlord to ask for previous landlord's reference, three month's bank statement, three month's payslips and passport/driver's ID. Certainly even if you say you might needed a slight decrease in the rent, if you prove your pay and show by your recent history you're more than able to financial manage yourself as well as a good tenant, most landlords would be fine giving a tenant a reduction in the rent. Especially if it's a tenant with a decent job.
It's funny, I don't think (though I could be wrong....people in the US, feel free to back me up or disagree with me here) there's much emphasis placed on references here at all. I wish there was, as your system sounds like a much better one.
Here most of the weight comes from a person's credit history; that's usually the key. If the credit rating proves to be low, then usually one must find a co-signer with better credit to sign the lease with them. Otherwise the lease doesn't happen.
If you do find someone with good credit who's willing to co-sign, then typically you can get by with no problem. But yeah in the US farrrrrr more weight is placed on credit checks than things like prior landlord recommendations, references, etc.
Unfortunately. Basically, people don't care as much about your references here....if you have good credit and stable employment, you're usually fine. If you're new to having credit or you have bad credit, you'll usually need someone to co-sign who has better credit. As long as there's a co-signer with good credit putting his name on the paper to take part of the responsibility, then that's all that matters to them.
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I have a feeling things are different in Europe that's why there's conflicting advice on haggling. In the US, haggling wouldn't work in most cases. My father's a real estate agent and owns a lot of rentals, he'd never come down on the rent and neither would most of his colleagues. The property demand is such that it's not really necessary to negotiate in most of the US I think.
However if Portugal is like the US; it's a stupidly good time to buy. Where I live it's actually cheaper to just get a mortgage and start working on buying a place vs. rent.
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Buying a house for me and for many in Portugal is a complicated deal. Sure having a house that you can pay off is great, but it's also a massive commitment.
The most problematic of all is that it stagnates people. In my case, I work for a company in Oporto while living in a place like Aveiro, which is roughly 70 kms away (40-minute drive by car, 1hr by train). I telecommute so, I don't have to spend that much in travelling, however, if I had to work at the office it would mean expenses and time that I waste during travels.
But really troubling is that, yes you can buy a house, but assuming that you get a better job offer in some distant place. It would mean, putting up the house for sale, while you have to buy and maybe request another loan which would take another 30 or so-years to pay off.
Selling a house is very difficult nowadays. My parents took almost 2 years to sell our old one thus repeating that process would be almost financially suicidal at this point. And when you don't sell, you still have to pay for the local taxes in both your new home and your old one until it's sold off. And this is no bull, I had to visit the old house every month to open faucetts for an hour because it's was cheaper than to have no running water.
Penafiel City Hall(in the town where I lived) actually charged more water works taxes for apartments and houses that didn't report any increases in their water counter.
It's a cultural thing, owing a house is the quintessential portuguese way of life, but with the housing bubble that mindest is slowly changing.
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Ben pretty much hit it on the head. In the states, haggling won't get you anywhere and it'll definitely look bad because you want to seem as though you won't have an issue with monthly payments. Also, your credit needs to be great, no one cares about references here. If you pass their credit check, then you should be fine. Most places around here tell you how much you'll need to move in immediately, down payment, 1 month of rent, etc. It's pretty straight forward stuff. I would recommend looking for a place that covers some utilities, like water, trash, etc.
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Guess it's gonna take a little longer than what I expected. Partially it's the hesitation of leaving the "nest", custody of the dogs and the larger expenses... but hopefully I can figure something out.
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You own dogs? My big cousin brought a dog when they moved out. The moment they failed and moved back in; and had to choose between the dog and the baby ( something along those lines ).
Why I say a house is because it could like an apartment. Imagine if you got it in your name and then have somebody live their and help out with the bills. I just can't bear to see my money go into something I do not own at all.
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Well, I finally worked up the guts to call one of those numbers and I'll be taking a look at a Studio Apartment today.
Gotta start somewhere.
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Studio apartments are fucking sweet, I've been living in one for the last nine months. Easy to maintain and more than enough room for something a guy like me needs. Most of my furniture was purchased on the cheap from the previous tenant, Ikea and I took a dinner table from someone who was moving and was going to throw theirs out.
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The one I checked was already full furnished (fridge an' all) and even had an 32 inch LED TV in the living room ( which I don't need, 'cause I got my own). I was very much surprised by how huge it was, way different to the old studio apartments when my parents were young.
But when it came to rent, it was way too expensive and there was really nothing I could barter off, so I had to bs my way out of it. But I'll keep lookin'. There's a few cheaper studio apartments 'round here.
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The one I checked was already full furnished (fridge an' all) and even had an 32 inch LED TV in the living room ( which I don't need, 'cause I got my own). I was very much surprised by how huge it was, way different to the old studio apartments when my parents were young.
But when it came to rent, it was way too expensive and there was really nothing I could barter off, so I had to bs my way out of it. But I'll keep lookin'. There's a few cheaper studio apartments 'round here.
You should expect a fridge and oven as standard, but any other furniture (tables/chairs/bed etc) are usually what comes with 'Fully Furnished' apartments. Fully Furnished seems to be for short term rent only (or mega-rich people) because it inflates the rent so much.
You're better off finding a place that has just the fridge, oven and then buy your own furniture if you're planning to stay for a year at least. The rent changes dramatically in my experience and you'll save by buying your own stuff or moving what you can from home.
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I really would like an "Studio" apartment one day. In the term to actually run a studio of some sort. My family member had one such apartment. It was a big room, with an basic kitchen area. Nothing too amazing. Just a big room basically. I hated that thing, plenty of "flying" roaches.
I really want a cabin. Yeah I am going to grow my hair out and wave to the pretty people walking by all day long. Or a house designed as one.
Maybe you could find somebody in the area who is willing to share a place with you. I could see myself with like four or ten people inside one place.
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Well, I thought I could talk about this again:
Number 1: It's been on my mind again.
Number 2: It was one of 2014's NYR that I didn't get done.
Quick question: Without getting too much into detail, how difficult or what hurdles come with "leaving the nest"?
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The hardest part is taking the first step I think. I just kind of up and left the country and had to start living on my own. Make sure you have the finances to do it first is the big thing I guess. If you aren't moving far then it's not too hard to adjust, since you can visit and the like.