SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Barry the Nomad on August 13, 2014, 09:45:44 am
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In case you don't venture out to the main page, it's 32X Month at SEGAbits. We have several features lined up on the front page, so check it daily for new content! Alright, front page plugging over.
Anyway, thought I'd let the 32X talk spill into the forums by way of a discussion point that has been on my mind for a while now. As we all know, the 32X is not a beloved piece of hardware. It was a commercial failure, the library is small, and according to some it is a headache to connect to the Genesis.
But is is a bad video game console/add-on? What is your criteria for a truly bad console?
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For me, the 32X is not a bad console nor would it make my list of worst hardware of all time. For starters, it's not a console, it's an add-on. To own a 32X means you own a Genesis, so while the 32X library may be small, you are not limited to the 40 titles. If anything, the 32X expands the Genesis library available to the add-on's owners by 40. I'd much prefer to have a 32X than to not have one, as I prefer to have access to After Burner, Doom, Chaotix, Kolibri, Metal Head, MKII, Shadow Squadron, Space Harrier, SW Arcade, Tempo, Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing, and Zaxxon's Motherbase. Then there are the enhanced Genesis titles that, while not AAA by any means, are preferred on the 32X thanks to improved sound and visuals.
I have never experienced hardware failure with the 32X personally, so I deem it a solid piece of tech. Far more dependable than the SEGA CD in that regard. Sure it was a commercial failure, but it isn't 1994 anymore. As a piece of retro hardware I think the 32X is worth owning and is not a bad console/add-on at all. It has a fair share of quality must play titles, and it functions well.
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If we want to talk BAD game consoles, I'd point to the Jaguar CD, as it is notorious for hardware failure and has a library that is less than half the size of the 32X library. I'd also point to the Philips CD-i as a bad game console, if only because the thing is more of an education/entertainment machine than a game machine. They tried to go the game route, but failed most of the time. CD-i for the educational and non-gaming entertainment content? It's actually pretty cool. But for games, it is awful.
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I believe what makes a console "bad" is likely a combination of several things. I'll touch on them each in their own regards.
Developer Support:
I still hear people talk about how horrible the Dreamcast was due to the fact there were no EA games and they had no support from the company. While Sega fixed this impressively by creating the 2K series, I don't believe it's their downfall. But I'm seeing this now with the Playstation Vita. It's by no means a horrible console, but because many developers are holding off from putting games on the system, it's not exactly helping it at all. This would be a strong case for the 32X. There weren't a lot of developers putting games onto the system because they were afraid they wouldn't make any cash on it, and rightly so from a business stand point.
Lesser Known IPs:
People all know the Call of Duties, the Halos, Marios and Zeldas. They're the big names that pull a lot of people in. Some people pass over games they've never heard of and don't take risks buying lesser known games such as Yakuza, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia. It isn't until years later of hearing people clamor over these games that people look back and realize they missed out on these games. By then it's too late, the sales are missed, and money wasn't truly made on those games, thus cutting into the life of the system. Not that lesser known IPs are a bad thing at all, but it's the truth that many people will pass up on these games. I remember talking to a used game seller about how some older games are so expensive now, like Mars Matrix (A game I'm still trying to hunt down) and he recalled that when the game was released, no one wanted it and he couldn't get rid of the game and remembers marking it down to even $15 new when the Dreamcast was discontinued, and now the game goes for around $80. The game simply sold poorly back then. This sort of thing though continues on even modern consoles.
Not Knowing What the System Is or Who it's For:
I hate this about modern consoles... They're now more than just for games. They control your TV, are DVRs, play movies, stream, have a bunch of applications, can make video calls.. Consoles in the '90's were simple. They played games, and that it. Some catered to kids, some catered to adults. Nintendo struggled with the GameCube to define who their target audience was and for awhile, the system had troubles finding itself and who it was meant for. The PS3, when it was released, was the cheapest BluRay player on the market at the beginning, and I know a lot of people who simply bought the system for that and never used it to play games. Not to mention you had companies like Best Buy giving the console away for free if you bought at shiny new LCD TV. Now it seems like with the new consoles, gaming is more like a 2nd thought than the first thing it really does. Who do you target that to then?
Uneducated People and Bad Marketing:
This sorta would tie into an Add-on topic. People didn't know exactly what the 32X did for the Genesis, and often passed on it because of that. Just as how the Xbox 360 got the HD-DVD Add-on. The 360 had no BluRay support, the PS3 did, so they went with HD-DVD. It "failed" because...again, no support from other companies. Even though HD-DVD, in some sense (and I'm not going to argue about this..) it had better picture quality than BluRay. Sure, it had its faults as well, but BluRay was more widespread and people were more aware of it, because it was marketed more. Marketing, Marketing, Marketing. Don't know how much I can stress that.. Sega hardly markets their products anymore. They rushed the Saturn out to try and beat out Playstation. Nintendo did the same with some of their systems. They tried to gain back market share, push it out there, but then had nothing to support it. The Vita is going down because Sony's hardly talking about it. Developers aren't talking about it. Gamers aren't talking about it. Why invest in a machine that's got a certain price tag and no one can justify investing in it when they hardly understand it or know why they should have one?
Poor Build Quality:
if it breaks after awhile and does last, or has some serious design flaws (Red Ring of Death, anyone?) or just burns out, that would justify it being a truly horrible system. If it lasts for 10+ years without a hiccup, then it's a perfectly good investment. Nothing lasts forever, that's for sure, but you'd expect a product to last more than a few months, or even weeks, and it just gives up on you.
Most of these things can be fixed (and some have for certain products..) with updated released, or better quality control.
So, yeah.. I feel like I'm rambling now and I don't want my topics to fall off point... So, I'll stop myself there and let others chime in.
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I think the 32X is a cool add-on. That said, I have opted not to get one and collect for it because it does seem like a bit of a hassle to hook it up. I didn't realize until I started looking into it that it's intended to be pretty much a permanent addition to the Genesis. Even if it's technically not permanent, it's more involved than just popping it in and out of the cartridge slot like a cartridge. Even so, I think it's a cool device and it's really only with the 20/20 vision of hindsight that people can say it was a failure. At the time, it was a desirable concept to be able to expand the capabilities of an existing console.
I would regard the Atari 5200 as more of a bad situation. Actually the console itself is impressively powerful for its time. It's just that it was unfortunately undermined by some very bad controller design... specifically awkward button placement and an analog stick that does not self-center. The controllers alone are enough of a problem for most collectors to steer clear of the console entirely.
But overall I would hesitate to say that any console is just outright bad. Each one seems to have at least a handful of must-play games.
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I would consider a bad console as a machine with a small or poor library or a machine prone to failure (eg... The first 360 consoles due to their hardware failures or the Apple Pippin due to it not having any games). As far as the 32x is concerned; yeah it's an add-on not a console, but as an add-on it wasn't that great it was expensive and it's quality games where just too few to warrant the purchase.
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The 32x is only bad because of the limited support it ended up getting. There was no full commitment and we lost a lot of potential good games like RATCHET AND BOLT and X MEN 32X. It really could have helped bridge the transition between the genesis and the saturn. My thing was that the 32x had to be of a reasonable price and not cost the same as a new console. If Sega had priced it cheaply back then, i think it would have helped sales a lot. It did had initial strong third party support before it faded away after the system didn't break new sales in its other yearly quarters....
I really wanted to play ALIENS Vs Predator that Capcom was going to release for it as one of their 32X game projects since the arcade game was quite awesome.
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I really wanted to see that Castlevania 32x Game that most fans dubbed it "The Bloodletting" which was going to be the sequel to Castlevania: Chi No Rondo (Rondo of Blood) It look like it was going to be awesome.. :(
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I think there's two angles on this. Firstly, it was a horrible idea. To release the 32X when you were also openly hyping the Saturn was just going to confuse the market. Also once it failed, the decision to drop it had massive repercussions for both the Saturn and the Dreamcast. The fact that it became the object lesson in the Gaming industry of what never to do with a project launch speaks volumes.
Besides that, if you just look at it in a vacuum, it was ok. It had some good games like Space Harrier, Knuckles Chaotix and Virtua Racing Deluxe but it's missing that one game, that killer app, to really carry it as a device worth having.
Is it Virtual Boy bad? No. Is it good? Absolutely not.
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What makes a bad hardware game system??
Well I had a bad criteria.
1. When your other console can do what this can do. Take SNES = Virtual Boy = 3ds
2. You make a Sequel that does not promote your add-on = SEGA CD = Sonic 2 = Senn + Nanka
3. Your HD-DVD is better then Blu-Ray but does not allow pornography
4. When your consumer base is adults mostly and are not children = TV-Toy = Nintendo
5. Your console have a red-ring of death; or just blue-light of death = Stupid
6. When you have to register your name and personal information to play online and not Credit Card
7. When you install spyware in the software or hardware.
8. When you make an MMORPG that can not play off-line without a subscription.
9. When you can't insert anything at all. ( th aaaayyuuuggggaaaa )
10. When the game system starts fining you or filming your personal business.
11. When it has a battery inside that invades your privacy.
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Someone above called it an Add-on, and I agree. I was never comfortable with calling it a console. It's like calling the Power Base Converter a console. If it requires the Genesis to run, I'd call it an add-on, like the SEGA CD. The combination of the Genesis and SEGA CD make the Genesis the best 16 bit console ever.
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The combination of the Genesis and SEGA CD make the Genesis the best 16 bit console ever.
I agree completely with this. However the 32x adds almost nothing to that pair.
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I agree completely with this. However the 32x adds almost nothing to that pair.
Disagree. Near perfect ports of Space Harrier, After Burner, Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing are something. As are the many exclusives that never saw rerelease elsewhere. a Genesis with a 32X is better than a Genesis without one.
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I think it was a terrible idea. Even at the time I remember them talking about the 32x and Saturn launching and it making no sense to get a 32x. Then the decision to abandon it hurt Sega so massively in the eyes of publishers, retailers and customers that it fatally hurt the Saturn and the Dreamcast, leading in part to the 3rd party developer we have now. I like my 32x but cannot defend it as a product. Once they decided to go with the Saturn, they should have killed the 32x.
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Retrogamer had an article of the 32x a few months back.
Turns out that SEGA decided to cancel a few projects themselves, which gave some bad blood between them and a select few developers who were getting established, which may or may not have later been a part of an EA team.
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Disagree. Near perfect ports of Space Harrier, After Burner, Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing are something. As are the many exclusives that never saw rerelease elsewhere. a Genesis with a 32X is better than a Genesis without one.
I see the 32X as a necessary addon to play these and other select "premium" games in arcade quality. Under that light, the 32X is decent.
That being said, it's nowhere near as worthy of a purchase as a Sega CD. A MegaDrive+SegaCD combo is a monster gaming system with incredible games and high fidelity 90's audio. A timecapsule of the greatness of another era.
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I really like my 32x, Virtua Racing Deluxe is great. However, in hindsight, it muddied the waters at a time when Sega should have had everything focused on the Saturn. Granted that was far from the only mistake Sega made in the launch of the Saturn, but it was a significant problem in that Sega got the reputation among publishers that they abandon their systems, so why release for them.
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In all truth, ever since AVGN did his 32X skit, it gets a massive amount of undeserved bad rap.
Yes, it was a failed add-on. But so was the Famicom Disk, the N64DD, the Kinect, and other mechanisms made to prolong a console's lifespan.
In the end did it matter? Well..a bit, not as much as people on the internet make it. "SEGA killed themselves with the add-ons". No! Sega commited suicide the moment they jump started the Saturn with no games and an expensive price point. Was mortally wounded when the PS1 came out with dev-friendly codding tools. And finished off when EA abandoned Sega (this was in 99 mind you. Not when the 32X came out) and Sony announced the PS2.
So overall, the 32X allowed some cool games to come to life, but was pretty expensive and sold poorly. That's it.
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In my opinion, the 32X simply came out too late to have the impact it was meant to. If it had been even one year earlier, the improvements it offered over the current 16 bit generation would have been so much more impressive. And while I don't agree that the 32X is as terrible as many people have made it out to be, it's quite evident that it was not a good console. There aren't any "must play" titles that offer gamers an experience they can't get anywhere else. Even the Sega CD had some excellent 2D shooters, Snatcher, and Lunar that alone were enough to make the console worth owning. Had the 32X been around longer, maybe it would have had some similarly great titles.
Ultimately, to answer the titular question of this thread, I think a bad console is one which the developers themselves do not support or have confidence in. Sega is infamous for this unfortunately: changing, delaying, or cancelling projects seemingly at a whim. If 3rd party support were the only reason, then we wouldn't have seen the N64 be as successful as it was after Nintendo lost so many developers to Sony. After the Genesis, Sega was simply too desperate and, at the same time, not confident enough to stick with their decisions.
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In all truth, ever since AVGN did his 32X skit, it gets a massive amount of undeserved bad rap.
Yes, it was a failed add-on. But so was the Famicom Disk, the N64DD, the Kinect, and other mechanisms made to prolong a console's lifespan.
In the end did it matter? Well..a bit, not as much as people on the internet make it. "SEGA killed themselves with the add-ons". No! Sega commited suicide the moment they jump started the Saturn with no games and an expensive price point. Was mortally wounded when the PS1 came out with dev-friendly codding tools. And finished off when EA abandoned Sega (this was in 99 mind you. Not when the 32X came out) and Sony announced the PS2.
So overall, the 32X allowed some cool games to come to life, but was pretty expensive and sold poorly. That's it.
The saturn had no possible way of succeeding. Or actually im not sure. It seems they rushed the console when sony anounced itself into the console business. When you think about it, SEGA was really cornered by sony. Sony got their playstation brand so right from the get go. Merciless taking marketshare from everyone and dominating like no other. They pretty much killed SEGA.
On topic. SEGA made some really bad hardware but they're games were always great. In hindsight you could say they should have skipped that gen and go straight to dreamcast. A lot of wasted resources were put into 32x, cd and saturn. Imagine if all the shining games came on dreamcast. Imagine the panzer dragoon games including saga all in higher res. But Then again that one got screwed by piracy as well. What a disaster it all was
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On topic. SEGA made some really bad hardware but they're games were always great. In hindsight you could say they should have skipped that gen and go straight to dreamcast. A lot of wasted resources were put into 32x, cd and saturn. Imagine if all the shining games came on dreamcast. Imagine the panzer dragoon games including saga all in higher res. But Then again that one got screwed by piracy as well. What a disaster it all was
I wouldn't say wasted resources. The games you mentioned - Panzer Dragoon series, Shining Force III - were some of the most optimized titles on the Saturn. And believe it or not, the Saturn had many ports that were far superior to PS1 equivalents; 2D fighters being the most obvious example. What killed off the Saturn had nothing to do with how they designed the hardware, it was largely a flaw in marketing decisions. The huge discrepancy between its performance in Japan and in the west is enough evidence of that.
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I wouldn't say wasted resources. The games you mentioned - Panzer Dragoon series, Shining Force III - were some of the most optimized titles on the Saturn. And believe it or not, the Saturn had many ports that were far superior to PS1 equivalents; 2D fighters being the most obvious example. What killed off the Saturn had nothing to do with how they designed the hardware, it was largely a flaw in marketing decisions. The huge discrepancy between its performance in Japan and in the west is enough evidence of that.
I think the Saturn could output great things. When I say wasted resource I mean the whole picture. Saturn didnt do well and at the same time it is said(not too sure about this one) that it was difficult to develop for. For such amazing developers at the time I think theyd be more satisfied if they got something more fulfilling to work with. Sony was already gonna take the generation. It was either rushing it or having it come out late. I really think the saturn was rushed because of the unexpected release date. Maybe im wrong in this though. In this scenarion i would have rather had them decide to go straight to dreamcast. Basically like they did with shenmue. But yeah hindsight and all. It makes sense that no one would have thought about that in their position at the time.
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That for me was Sega in general and SOJ in particular at the height of their stupidity.
With the Mega Drive still selling respectably on many parts of the world, a 32 bit plugin to extend the life for another 3 years or so is quite logical. However SOJ's decision to develop both the 32X and Saturn simultaneously was a mistake, as was their decision to push the launch of the Saturn forward, to drop the 32x a year after it's launch, the price of both, along with the marketing and how they handled third party publishers.
In hindsight, the smart move would be to launch the 32X worldwide for a cheap price ($100 or so) along with releasing the Neptune for $200 and the Mega CD 2 you could skip the Saturn and build the cash reserves for a Dreamcast launch.
Edit: The smartest move though would be for SOJ to stop screwing with Tom Kalinske, but they were never going to do that.
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With the Mega Drive still selling respectably on many parts of the world, a 32 bit plugin to extend the life for another 3 years or so is quite logical.
You leave the 3rd parties take up the slack , just like SONY and MS are doing did with the 360 and PS3 and
However SOJ's decision to develop both the 32X and Saturn simultaneously was a mistake, as was their decision to push the launch of the Saturn forward, to drop the 32x a year after it's launch, the price of both, along with the marketing and how they handled third party publishers.
SOJ had no real interest at all in the 32X - They wanted to drop the Mega Drive as soon as they could . SEGA America pushed for the 32X hard . When it was clear the Jag and 3DO was no threat and the Saturn was coming to Japan in 1994 was the time the 32X should have been dropped
The smartest move though would be for SOJ to stop screwing with Tom Kalinske, but they were never going to do that
No they listen to Tom: that was the mistake, as was no real Sonic game ready early in for the Saturn.
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I think part of Sega's reasoning, at least SOA, was that they wanted to develop a multi-tiered system based on different consumer's budgets. They wanted an ecosystem with low budget offerings (SMS and Game Gear), medium budget options (Genesis, plus optional Sega CD and 32X upgrades) and a high budget option (Saturn). In hindsight, we can see they spread themselves too thin and that it's probably not a business plan that the market can support. But at the time I can see how it seemed like it could be a viable strategy.
If I was to point out a 'mistake' made by Sega, I personally think it was the insistence on trying to remain #1 continuously. It's really not necessary to always have the top selling console, as long as you can maintain a decent slice of the pie. I think the desire to be #1 caused a certain degree of decisions being made too quickly. They could have settled for second place against the PS1 and taken more time to develop a more cohesive and conservative strategy. But I think most of long-term Sega fans are not really fans of conservatism in game design and business management. We admire the craziness and risk-taking and exalt in the highs that that approach can create. But with the highs come lows as well.
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I think part of Sega's reasoning, at least SOA, was that they wanted to develop a multi-tiered system based on different consumer's budgets. They wanted an ecosystem with low budget offerings (SMS and Game Gear), medium budget options (Genesis, plus optional Sega CD and 32X upgrades) and a high budget option (Saturn).
But you then split the user base and retail and development support . It was a nice idea but it came out at the wrong time
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The 32X is a bad console because it's what signalled the end for SEGA. Consumers would have forgiven them the Mega CD because that system actually had some good games for it, but the 32X was the first major nail in SEGA's coffin because it suggested that SEGA had no respect for their consumers. The 32X had nothing worth playing and it divided consumers after they saw new console after new console from SEGA within months of each other. The 32X killed the Saturn, which was the superior console, because it took SEGA's internal resources away from that system, which was only developed as a stop gap system anyway, and damaged the company's reputation. Although the 32X was a cool idea and good from a technical perspective for what it did to the Mega Drive, it ultimately was a poor business decision and killed SEGA.
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The 32X is a bad console because it's what signalled the end for SEGA. Consumers would have forgiven them the Mega CD because that system actually had some good games for it, but the 32X was the first major nail in SEGA's coffin because it suggested that SEGA had no respect for their consumers. The 32X had nothing worth playing and it divided consumers after they saw new console after new console from SEGA within months of each other. The 32X killed the Saturn, which was the superior console, because it took SEGA's internal resources away from that system, which was only developed as a stop gap system anyway, and damaged the company's reputation. Although the 32X was a cool idea and good from a technical perspective for what it did to the Mega Drive, it ultimately was a poor business decision and killed SEGA.
Welcome to the forums!
I don't agree with you. But do have fun!
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He's got SOME valid points, but to suggest that the 32X killed Sega, is a bit of a stretch.
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The 32X has been labled one of the causes Sega went bankrupt RETROACTIVELY.
When the Dreamcast came out was anyone worried about what happaned to the 32X? No.
So in reality, it did some damage at the time, but by the time Sega came out with the Dreamcast it was completely dissipated.
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SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money.
Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end).
I guess we can always point in hindsight, but this is one of the many times that SEGA has hurt itself because it was so busy fighting itself.
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SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money.
That would have been the best way .
Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end)
The Saturn being hard to program for was just a cop out used by developers for its lack of marketshare (that was the real reason for poor support) . Its not like the PS2, N64 or PS3 had any better or easier development environment in fact Treasure even said the N64 was harder to developer for than the Saturn . That said the 1st tools should have been better and SEGA should have made the Saturn to be able to handle 3D alpha/transaperent effects
The 32X has been labled one of the causes Sega went bankrupt RETROACTIVEL
You see people need to think , that's rubbish . The 32X and Saturn was developed in 1992 to 1994 and in those years SEGA weren't posting losses or anywhere near . It true to say that both the Saturn and 32X cost SEGA marketshare - that really hurt SEGA and selling the DC at a huge lost for each unit almost made SEGA go to the wall
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For a console to be considered bad to me, first off and the biggest is lack of support from the manufacturer. Whether the system has a few glitches or hiccups, or the intended life span of support for the system. Secondly is developer support. If the system only has developers with titles that I couldn't care less about, its a bad console to me. For others it might not, but for me it is.
My favorite console to this day is the Sega CD. To me it revolutionized gaming with FMV, full audio tracks, and some timeless classics. Yet many consider Sega CD a failure, or a bad console as it was bulky, lack of a huge library that NES, SNES, and Genesis had, and no updated graphical capabilities. However, I still play games on my Sega CD more often than I play my Xbox 360 or Wii.
32X Was a bad console, SoJ pushed it to SoA and said work with it, all the while not telling them they were working on the Saturn. When news of the 32X hit of its release, SoJ was releasing info on its Saturn. This pushed developers away from the 32X. You basically had 1 company playing tug-o-war with itself. SoJ didn't trust SoA, and SoA wanted to do things their way, and honestly if they operated as 2 separate companies they both probably would have succeeded in their own market. But they competed with themselves, killing both systems.
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Yet many consider Sega CD a failure, or a bad console as it was bulky, lack of a huge library that NES, SNES, and Genesis had, and no updated graphical capabilities. However, I still play games on my Sega CD more often than I play my Xbox 360 or Wii.
Haha the Mega CD is my 2nd fav console ever . Unlike what some made out it did really bost the MD capabilities quite a lot with its ASIC chip and the 8 Channel PCM sound chip (which SEGA was using it the likes of Rad Mobile) . It was just sadly underused not least by SEGA Japan themself's.
32X Was a bad console, SoJ pushed it to SoA and said work with it, all the while not telling them they were working on the Saturn.
Utter rubbish so so so wrong . Sega Japan was very worried about the upcoming 3DO and Jaguar and looked at all options that's very true . But it was SOA that pushed ahead and continuted with the 32X project . And sorry SEGA America knew full well of the Saturn plans - SOA were the 1st to show off the system to the world and its games in the CES show of January 1994 , they set up the SEGA away development team in 1993 (the team that produced the likes of Bug) SEGA America knew full of the Saturn plans alright they just didn't think the high price of the Saturn or PS would sell in the short term, that the Saturn may also get delayed (when SOJ made it quite clear the Saturn was shipping in the fall of 1994) - big cock's up if ever there wre one's
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Utter rubbish so so so wrong . Sega Japan was very worried about the upcoming 3DO and Jaguar and looked at all options that's very true . But it was SOA that pushed ahead and continuted with the 32X project . And sorry SEGA America knew full well of the Saturn plans - SOA were the 1st to show off the system to the world and its games in the CES show of January 1994 , they set up the SEGA away development team in 1993 (the team that produced the likes of Bug) SEGA America knew full of the Saturn plans alright they just didn't think the high price of the Saturn or PS would sell in the short term, that the Saturn may also get delayed (when SOJ made it quite clear the Saturn was shipping in the fall of 1994) - big cock's up if ever there wre one's
My info might be wrong then, I am taking in what I got from reading Console Wars, Service Games, and The Ultimate History of Video Games which portrayed this to be the case. Regardless the 32x was a waste of resources, and never should have came to fruition. The Saturn was overpriced and underpowered, Sega should have made deals with Sony and Ken Kuturagi(sp?). IMO it would have launched Sega Saturn into a better position instead of competing with Sony. It would have opened doors for Sony later on, but it would have kept Sega their share in the market and be poised for a better rep when launching the Dreamcast.
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The info is wrong and I've had this debate with the System 16 forums and people falling for Tom Kalinske lies, much less those jokes of books
For the record SONY Japan does all the R&D and in the old PS days their computer division just occupied a tiny floor in SONY Music HQ and the PS were only able to work on one project at the time and they were locked in to a deal to make a system exclusively for NCL (Nintendo) not SEGA !! . Then when NCL publicly humiliated SONY in 1993, SONY made the choice to go-it-alone . There was never a deal or any chance of SEGA having SONY hardware at all . Those are facts. Sure SEGA was offered the N64 Chip set - but that chip set was high cost, delayed for years and in the end didn't have much better polygons performance than the Saturn or the PS and it had poor frame rates and screen res .
And another myth that goes around is how SEGA America never knew of the Saturn and SEGA Japan plans and SEGA Japan hid them. Well lets blow that myth apart too
Here's SEGA Japan showing off the Saturn in March 1994
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1158/5107722230_e12ac411c4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/8MmpSo)IMG_0002 (https://flic.kr/p/8MmpSo) by Mega Drive (https://www.flickr.com/photos/27368881@N00/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1404/5107364780_915d470301_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/8MjzBs)IMG_0001 (https://flic.kr/p/8MjzBs)
Here's SEGA America showing off the Saturn in January 1994 (before SEGA Japan 1st showed off the Saturn
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Here's SEGA Japan showing off the Saturn in the Toyko Game show in June 1994
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[url=https://flic.kr/p/8MiwSF](https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1055/5107160459_27f27deafd_b.jpg)
[url=https://flic.kr/p/8MjArN](https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4147/5107367584_142a58959b_b.jpg)
And Here's a Interview with the SEGA Away/Tiger Team
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Still think SEGA America didn't know about the Saturn ? (https://flic.kr/p/8NsrVj)[/url][/url][/url][/url][/url]
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The info is wrong and I've had this debate with the System 16 forums and people falling for Tom Kalinske lies, much less those jokes of books
For the record SONY Japan does all the R&D and in the old PS days their computer division just occupied a tiny floor in SONY Music HQ and the PS were only able to work on one project at the time and they were locked in to a deal to make a system exclusively for NCL (Nintendo) not SEGA !! . Then when NCL publicly humiliated SONY in 1993, SONY made the choice to go-it-alone . There was never a deal or any chance of SEGA having SONY hardware at all .
Team Andromeda, just wanted to throw this out there:
http://revrob.com/sci-tech/264-tom-kalinske-talks-about-his-time-overseeing-sega-as-its-ceo-in-the-90s-reveals-that-sega-passed-on-virtual-boy-technology-considered-releasing-3do (http://revrob.com/sci-tech/264-tom-kalinske-talks-about-his-time-overseeing-sega-as-its-ceo-in-the-90s-reveals-that-sega-passed-on-virtual-boy-technology-considered-releasing-3do)
In 1994 Joe Miller, Sega of America's Senior Vice President of Research and Development, along with Olaf Olafsson, CEO of Sony Interactive Entertainment, worked together to produce specs for a next generation console that the two companies would release jointly. This collaboration is now well known.
Kalinske says his biggest mistake as CEO was that he "wasn't persuasive enough to get the combination of a Sony-Sega hardware platform done." Adding, "I should've been able to convince them of that, and I wasn't."
Not only quoted from the 3 books I read, but from the mouth of Kalinske himself, I am curious as to where your source is? You can call him a liar all you want, but as far as I know he is the only reliable source I have seen.
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In 1994 Joe Miller, Sega of America's Senior Vice President of Research and Development, along with Olaf Olafsson, CEO of Sony Interactive Entertainment, worked together to produce specs for a next generation console that the two companies would release jointly. This collaboration is now well known
In 1994 the PSX was well advanced and well know . And sorry Olaf didn't work for SONY R&D Japan at all and only SONY . Speaking of Olaf remind me again why he left SONY ? And people seem to think only SEGA have differences with the American and Japan branches
I am curious as to where your source is?
Tokunaka-san, Kutaragi-sand and Phil harrison
Don't fally for TOM lies and spin. Anyone with any little history of late 1993 and the start of 1994 . Would know SEGA was totally caught out with the SONY PS-X announcement. So If SEGA Japan was offfered the chipset it would have known SONY was ready to enter the market and also know its spec's and what it would take to beat them . survive to say SEGA didn't and had to change the Saturn CPU from 1 SH-2 to two SH-2's.
TOM didn't think the Saturn or PS would be mass market and thought it would be the 32X.
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You are still only naming names with no actual source. Anne Hathaway said I am the best looking man in the world, Tom Brady admitted I am a better QB than him, and Jimmy Page bowed to me and my shredding awesomeness, Betty Crocker learned how to bake from me, and I almost forgot, I fought Evander Holyfield at a private gathering and won.
See how that works out? You don't believe anything I just said because I have no factual evidence backing it up. Please return when you can provide credible info, and if you do I will admit my ignorance.
EDIT: Also Olaf wanted to jump into the console business, he was CEO of the interactive entertainment division of Sony in Europe. I never claimed he worked for R&D of Japan.
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You are still only naming names with no actual source.
EDGE Mag.
I never claimed he worked for R&D of Japan.
No he didn't and only SONY Japan green light and handled R&D at the time and back in the day SONY Japan was locked into a deal with NCL . It's Nintendo that turned their back on the SONY chipset not SEGA. And you might know this, but Olaf left SONY becasuse of a bust up with SONY Japan, and SONY Japan refusing to cut the price of the PS in America.
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You don't believe anything I just said because I have no factual evidence backing it up.
Not you, just the rubbish that comes from TOM and the books . These books that make out SEGA America was kept in the dark over the Saturn, never mind that SEGA America were the 1st to show of the Saturn to the gamming world . Tom and books that will try and make out SEGA turned down the SONY chipset , despite the fact that it was Nintendo .
If SEGA knew full well of the PS chipset, SEGA Japan would have known full well what to do beat the chipset
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Do you have magazine scans or direct quotes, TA? I know you don't like Tom, but as is all I see is your own negativity, a few names and a mention of a magazine. I have no idea if Tokunaka-san, Kutaragi-sand and Phil harrison have as much vitriol in their thoughts as you do, or what they even said.
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Do you have magazine scans or direct quotes, TA? I know you don't like Tom
For the 32X and to put to bed the issues of SEGA America and SEGA Japan not working together only need to read the Retro Gamer and their features with Scot Bayless and Joe Miller . They all said how it was the USA call to back the 32X and SEGA Japan and SEGA America had a fantasic working relationship for Hardware(their words, not mine) and TOM loved it for the price factor
For the bullcrap over Tom Lies and spin (Typcial know-it-all American sales man, who's never wrong) . Looking over the press coverage of the Saturn, the fact that Tom stayed with SEGA untill 1997(so much with being unhappy with the 95 lanuch) , or the fact that if SEGA knew of the PS-X spec it would have known what to do to beat it in every tech dept . Edge mag did many features iwth Kutaragi-sand over the PS with and in those they tell of how after Nintendo dropped the PS the Head of Sony said to go it alone and Phil even told Edge that SONY were shoiwng off the hardware in 1993 when the hardwar was the size of a office photocopier and how Toshiba worked with SONY over the PS GPU (which hardly anyone talks of).
SEGA never had access to the SONY PS chipset . And imo SEGA we right to turn down N64 chipset , 3D0 M2 Chipset and 3dFX chipset , think they messed up with turning down the Lynx handheld chipset myself though and there's part of me that wishes the DC went with the American Power PC Blackbelt CPU too
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No one ever stated that Sega had access to the PSX chipset, no one ever stated that they worked together, it was only stated that they were in talks to work together. But to throw this out there, Sony did work with Sega during the Sega CD days with their FMV lineup.
Again, you are still only throwing out names with no sources.
Here are some basic searches with multiple sources to prove my point:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=sega+almost+worked+with+sony&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=sega+almost+worked+with+sony&sc=0-7&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=D490C86D671E483A822C8D14CCE676B4 (http://www.bing.com/search?q=sega+almost+worked+with+sony&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=sega+almost+worked+with+sony&sc=0-7&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=D490C86D671E483A822C8D14CCE676B4)
http://www.bing.com/search?q=sega+never+worked+with+sony&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR (http://www.bing.com/search?q=sega+never+worked+with+sony&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR)
And in case you are anti Bing
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sega+almost+worked+with+sony (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sega+almost+worked+with+sony)
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sega+never+worked+with+sony (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sega+never+worked+with+sony)
Now, just because it is on the internet doesn't exactly mean it's true, just like just because its in multiple documentary books doesn't mean it's true. But unfortunately they are the only viable, credible sources provided.
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I do sense a little anti-American sentiment in regards to Tom... I interviewed him or over an hour and he was nothing but a gentleman and very nice guy. Never got the sense that he was some slimy salesman.
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it was only stated that they were in talks to work together.
Unless the talks were with SONY Japan they would be pointless . SONY Japan still to this day does all the R&D and back in 90's did 100% all of SONY's Hardware R&D; And in those days only Nintendo were in the bidding for the PS Chipset.
Sony did work with Sega during the Sega CD days with their FMV lineup
Yeah just a few FMV games, and the odd game here and there. Nothing what you could major support. Fact is SONY used Nintendo and SEGA in the 90's while they were working on their own system.
Again, you are still only throwing out names with no sources
If I must I'll scan the EDGE and Retro gamer mag's
And in case you are anti Bing
So becasue it's on the internet that makes it's true . You post me any sort of interview with the main SONY Japan or SEGA Japan staff where they talk of SEGA not only having acesses to SONY hardware, but also turning it down. Not even the main Hardware guys at SEGA America ever talk of it .
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Go on Google all you like, you'll not find it . Only Tom talks of it and he's the king of spin and bullshit . The man that called it so badly wrong in the 32bit and just can't admit to it
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So becasue it's on the internet that makes it's true .
Apparently you missed this.
Now, just because it is on the internet doesn't exactly mean it's true, just like just because its in multiple documentary books doesn't mean it's true. But unfortunately they are the only viable, credible sources provided.
Also with this being spammed all over the internet you would figure someone would come out and denounce this "false" information. But it seems you are the only one. I am sorry, but if someone came out and twisted the truth on something so major in my companies history I would come forward about it.
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Looks like we will be finding out, the documentary on Console Wars apparently has finished filming, and includes all major influences and people from the book talking about it with exception of 1 person from Nintendo. Blake J. Harris himself was hired by SoA to direct documentaries at SoJ. He witnessed and felt the same pressure and resistance that Kalinske had during his time, the film, based on the book, is going to be produce by Scott Rudin under Sony slated for release in 2016. If Sony is to develop the film adaptation, I highly doubt they would let something so major slip into the movie if it was untrue. So perhaps we can put this argument to rest then.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/06/interview_console_wars_author_blake_j_harris_discusses_film_adaptations_and_the_struggles_of_sega (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/06/interview_console_wars_author_blake_j_harris_discusses_film_adaptations_and_the_struggles_of_sega)
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Also with this being spammed all over the internet you would figure someone would come out and denounce this "false" information. But it seems you are the only one. I am sorry, but if someone came out and twisted the truth on something so major in my companies history I would come forward about it.
Really ? The book and people like you make out that SEGA America was kept in the dark over the Saturn , proved that one wrong very easy . Lets put another myth to bed now and that's that SEGA Japan and SEGA America didn't get on,or how the 32X wasn't SEGA America baby . Also what is clear is in every interview and every feature SEGA saw 3DO and Jaguar as a threat, not SONY . SEGA didn't have the 1st clue that SONY was going to go it alone after the NCL deal feel through .
Anway Here's was Scot Bayless and Marty Franz will tell you about the guys in SEGA Japan . And when I had time to go through my EDGE mag's I'll post the features will Phil and Ken and how SONY didn't want to deal with anyone after the NCL deal fell through and went alone.
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In case you don't venture out to the main page, it's 32X Month at SEGAbits. We have several features lined up on the front page, so check it daily for new content! Alright, front page plugging over.
Anyway, thought I'd let the 32X talk spill into the forums by way of a discussion point that has been on my mind for a while now. As we all know, the 32X is not a beloved piece of hardware. It was a commercial failure, the library is small, and according to some it is a headache to connect to the Genesis.
But is is a bad video game console/add-on? What is your criteria for a truly bad console?
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For me, the 32X is not a bad console nor would it make my list of worst hardware of all time. For starters, it's not a console, it's an add-on. To own a 32X means you own a Genesis, so while the 32X library may be small, you are not limited to the 40 titles. If anything, the 32X expands the Genesis library available to the add-on's owners by 40. I'd much prefer to have a 32X than to not have one, as I prefer to have access to After Burner, Doom, Chaotix, Kolibri, Metal Head, MKII, Shadow Squadron, Space Harrier, SW Arcade, Tempo, Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing, and Zaxxon's Motherbase. Then there are the enhanced Genesis titles that, while not AAA by any means, are preferred on the 32X thanks to improved sound and visuals.
I have never experienced hardware failure with the 32X personally, so I deem it a solid piece of tech. Far more dependable than the SEGA CD in that regard. Sure it was a commercial failure, but it isn't 1994 anymore. As a piece of retro hardware I think the 32X is worth owning and is not a bad console/add-on at all. It has a fair share of quality must play titles, and it functions well.
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If we want to talk BAD game consoles, I'd point to the Jaguar CD, as it is notorious for hardware failure and has a library that is less than half the size of the 32X library. I'd also point to the Philips CD-i as a bad game console, if only because the thing is more of an education/entertainment machine than a game machine. They tried to go the game route, but failed most of the time. CD-i for the educational and non-gaming entertainment content? It's actually pretty cool. But for games, it is awful.
The 32X was a disaster. It was a BAD idea courtesy of Sega Amusements USA who designed it in the Summer of 1993 because they were completely in the dark about project Aurora/Saturn(Sega Away 27 kept it top secret in Japan because the chipset wasn't assembled until the Fall of 1993, prior to that SOJ was focused on Jupiter) and were confused on which prototype hybrid SEGA of Japan was focused on. In early 1994, Jupiter,Saturn, and Neptune designs all hit SOA's offices from Japan.
32X COULD have been a well executed idea, had Sega actually put more time into R&D on the idea(building it with its own separate processor like Mega CD) and not rushed it out to the market.
My pick for a terrible console is a tie between CD-i and Game.com. CD-i was absolutely pathetic and poorly designed. Establishing Philips as one of the worst Electronic brands in the world. Poor on quality and price.
Game.com was a joke. A gimmicky attempt by Tiger to take on Gameboy after years of horrible,outdated monochrome handheld games. The execution was laughable at best.
SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money. Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end). I guess we can always point in hindsight, but this is one of the many times that SEGA has hurt itself because it was so busy fighting itself.
The reason why the SEGA Saturn was so complex and a bit difficult to program is two reasons: 1. SEGA of Japan didn't assemble the Aurora chipset design(System 32 with Model 2 3D tech) until late 1993 because they were mostly laser focused on Jupiter(System 32 with Model 1 3D tech). and 2. Nakayama wanted Saturn out for Japan in time for the Holiday season of 1994. They moved away from Jupiter after Model 1's technology failed to impress Amusement spectators at the 1993 JAMMA show in Japan. Originally in 1992, Hideki Sato wanted a full 3D only Model 2 based powerhouse. But SEGA felt that it would risk hurting its core Arcade business by driving people away from high cost Arcade games, so they focused on building a console designed to take on 3DO,PCFX/Turbo Force, Atari Jaguar and Nintendo Atlantis/Reality all mostly 2D machines. Ironically, during the mid 1990s, Arcades collapsed and people DID get driven away to 3D home consoles like PSX. The Aurora chipset was thrown together quickly in late 1993. The original prototype was actually Cartridge based. The name "Saturn" came from the next logical step in Sega's 32-bit CPU line. And it also insured that Model 2 was going to be the next Mainline Arcade Board not Model 1.
But in reality, Saturn was no more difficult to program than PSX2 if not easier and less complex. It did great in Japan because SOJ actually executed it right and kept 3rd party support. It was Sega of America who SCREWED UP. Stolar added insult to injury pressuring Sega of Japan to quickly develop Dural and had even Sega Amusements USA design its own chipset "Black Belt" while Naoya Tsurumi(SEGA Holdings'Ltd current Chief Operating Officer) designed the economical "Katana" which of course became Dreamcast. Stolar's gerrymandering is what pretty much destroyed Sega of America. At the time he killed Saturn in the States in April 1998, it had only been on the market for 3 years and after only 2 lackluster holiday seasons, it had FINALLY started to catch on in the US during 1997.
Stolar's decision also cut off profit and revenue SEGA could have earned during 1998.
Again regarding 32X, Mars' original Japanese design was a better idea. The American one however was NOT. The difference between 32X and Mega CD was that MCD was better designed and had a separate processor and better approach outside of the US, it wasn't the FMV gimmick Sega of America kept pushing it as.
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SEGA America knew full well of the Saturn in 1993 not least because the SH-2 were lifted from the Saturn . Looking over that the Jupiter was just a Cart based Saturn minus the CD-ROM and the 2 Meg and 1 Meg system and boot Ram with the option for the user to upgrade with a add on CD drive . Saturn was always going to be Sega main 32bit system hence the name of the hardware it's self .
32x was just dump as it was too late to the market the 3do and Jaguar flopped and to make matters worse it was cart based
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Also, SEGA of Japan's 32-bit next generation project was codenamed "Project Aurora". Jupiter and Saturn aren't one and the same. They're separate low end variations of the same chipeset codenamed "Aurora", while the high end was full fledged Model 2 based.
Jupiter was Phase 1 of Aurora. A Cartridge based System 32 Model 1 3D tech design. It was in development throughout Mid 1992 to Summer 1993. It was scrapped in late 1993 for Phase 2 "System 32 Model 2 3D tech" dubbed "Saturn" due to it being the next logical step. SEGA got distracted by too many different prototypes from the same Chipset. Sega Away had briefly worked on an early 32-bit 2D only hybrid based entirely off of System 32 "Mars/Gigdrive" during late 1991, mid 1992. Mars was canned in late 1992. This is where 32X and Neptune came from. The scrapped parts of the canned Mars reached Sega Amusements USA in Spring 1993.
Sega of America came up with the 32X design in 1993, because they were unsure about which design for Aurora Sega of Japan was going to use and . There were whispers and conflicted information reaching San Francisco offices because SEGA of Japan kept quiet about it until the Mid Autumn. SOA did not learn about the prototype Saturn until then. And by early 1994, had little interest getting on board with it. They were too focused on "Genesis 32" or Sega 32X. And were confident that keeping the Genesis going with another attachment was the way to go. They were wrong.
Saturn's lackluster performance in the West is entirely Sega of America's fault. They didn't shift focus on it until early 1995. The 32X was a complete DETOUR. And in 1996, its new CEO Bernie "Asstard" Stolar HATED the console and wanted to do away with it as quickly as possible. Saturn didn't lack 3rd party support because "it was hard to program" it lacked games and a good launch lineup because SOA never actively pursued 3rd party contracts for it.
Stolar's PR blunder at E3 1997 added insult to injury. After 2 lackluster years of sales, the Saturn was starting to do well in the States. Games were finally coming out and people were importing Japanese titles. As well as the price cut helping improve sales. When he killed the console in the Spring of 1998, it cut off potential profit for SEGA for the 1998 Fiscal year.
Saturn's potential was never realized because Sega of America's incompetence and delusional faith in 32X. They were so sure it was a product that consumers would buy that they focused majority of their resources and energy on it. When it turned out, it was an unwanted platform released to a disinterested gaming audience more interested about Saturn, they didn't even turn their full attention to Saturn or try to salvage the damage done.
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Saturn didn't lack 3rd party support because "it was hard to program" it lacked games and a good launch lineup because SOA never actively pursued 3rd party contracts for it.
That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers, there are a bunch that I'd never heard of before or since. Like THQ's imprint "Kokopeli" publishing In the Hunt. Or other publishing arrangements that I wouldn't necessarily expect - like Acclaim publishing Darius Gaiden instead of Taito publishing it themselves. In hindsight, maybe Sega of America should have taken on more third party titles to publish themselves, like they did back in the Master System days. The Japanese Saturn library is one of the finest console libraries in gaming history... it's a shame more of those games weren't brought to the West.
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That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers,
Saturn had plenty of 3rd party support more so in the early years . The trouble was the Saturn didn't have marketshare inthe west to make it worth while for most 3rd parties to bother much with the system - that was its trouble .
Being hard to programe for is just cover for no market share, more so when systems like the N64, PS2, PS3 were much harder systems to handle
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That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers, there are a bunch that I'd never heard of before or since. Like THQ's imprint "Kokopeli" publishing In the Hunt. Or other publishing arrangements that I wouldn't necessarily expect - like Acclaim publishing Darius Gaiden instead of Taito publishing it themselves. In hindsight, maybe Sega of America should have taken on more third party titles to publish themselves, like they did back in the Master System days. The Japanese Saturn library is one of the finest console libraries in gaming history... it's a shame more of those games weren't brought to the West.
The sudden, poorly explained "test marketing" blunder of E3 1995 made by Tom Kalinske hurt Sega of America's 3rd party relations. Kalinske did not properly explain that the Saturn "was not launching this weekend" but rather undergoing a test market prior to its September 2nd rollout. Kalinske's poor context made consumers and 3rd party publishers think the console was being rushed to the market and launched 4 months ahead of time. The publishers also had not been sought out by Sega of America for Saturn support until February of 1995. SEGA of America could have and SHOULD have spent 1994 on helping Sega of Japan win 3rd party support with Saturn while sticking to Genesis and Sega CD. They wasted that entire year on 32X. See how much of a complete misstep 32X really was?
The reason why it was difficult for Sega of America to get 3rd party support is because they waited too late to start sending out SDKs.
Sega of America's late entry into Saturn support is also why Sonic Xtreme got cancelled. Xtreme had started development as the very first from the ground up Mars/32X project back during September 1993. STI had spent 2 years developing the game as a 32X exclusive. When it was moved to Saturn in March 1995, STI found themselves between a rock and a hard place. They had NO clue how to program the Saturn because SOA NEVER properly trained them. To move the project over to Saturn, STI simply extracted the 32X engine onto Saturn's Assembly Middleware. Basically porting the whole 32X made game to Saturn instead of working from the ground up on Saturn's hardware.
Since STI didn't know how to code and properly program the Saturn to port from other hardware, they attempted to retool the project from the ground up on Saturn. This is where the Nights engine debacle came. Naka didn't like Xtreme(he personally was offended that STI didn't want to use Amy and instead created this Sally knockoff Tiara).Because he wouldn't allow the engine to be used, STI asked Peter Morewic, an engineer at STI who had undergone 3 months of training to properly utilize Saturn's development kit for help. He had little interest in Xtreme and since he had gotten skilled at Saturn programming he actually surprised them with the news that he had come up with his OWN Sonic Saturn game prototype "Sonic Pool" which was a full 3D game that utilized Saturn's 3D capabilities. He immediately asked for help in it and wanted STI to get fully involved with it. They declined. Because they were so focused on completing Xtreme, STI was pretty much disbanded by May 1996. Morewic tried to convinced its leftover programmers Mike Wallis and Chris Senn that Xtreme was doomed and that the Sonic Pool project was worth pursuing. But they didn't listen. In September 1996, Wallis threw in the towel and ordered Xtreme to be cancelled. Stolar's idea was both stupid and probably intentional: Port Sonic 3D Blast to Saturn. An already awful,slow, and boring gimmicky Genesis title to Saturn.
They should have listened to Morewic.
The Saturn really is a tragedy in the West. So much wasted potential. Think about what could have been, had SOA BOTHERED or CARED to support it from the very beginning.