SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: MadeManG74 on February 10, 2010, 05:35:13 pm
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(http://http://www.captainwilliams.co.uk/sega/ms/shinobi/images/shinobi.png)
So I thought this might make an interesting topic, as there was quite a discussion on this over IM the other day.
Lets say that Sega were to make a sequel to Shinobi using Bayonetta's engine, how should the game play?
Should they include a deep combat system, or keep it centered heavily on platforming, with only basic attacks to quickly dispose of enemies?
What should the platforming be like? Should it be stealthy and somewhat open like a fast paced Splinter Cell, or should it be linear and action packed?
I personally think that they should include a good combat system based heavily on speed and fluid combinations. I think that you should be able to take out enemies without having to stop, or at least stopping very briefly. Have it so that it's easy and fast to combine running, kunai throwing and up close sword attacks, so you can start attacking from far away and by the time you get close they are ready to be finished off.
While I can understand that platforming probably should be the focus, even the older Shinobi games had bosses and heavy enemies that took longer to take down, and in this case I think a good, but basic combat system would be important. Not having thousands of combos like Bayonetta, but the ablility to be attacking while moving quickly, and to chain all those attacks together should be the main focus, similar in some ways to the way attacks are chained with ease in Arkham Asylum.
So what do you guys think, and how do you picture the a possible Shinobi sequel?
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I think it should have simple and fun combat system. Look at Batman's combat for his latest game, not that deep but gets the job done. I would like for them to focus on plateforming mixed with some action. Surfing? PLz.
I would like the stealth to be more like Uncharted 2, it was easy and not a pain in the ass like Splinter Cell's. The game should be fast paced, not slow.
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I picture it exactly like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7gAjwMu7g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7gAjwMu7g)
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I think it should have simple and fun combat system. Look at Batman's combat for his latest game, not that deep but gets the job done. I would like for them to focus on plateforming mixed with some action. Surfing? PLz.
I would like the stealth to be more like Uncharted 2, it was easy and not a pain in the ass like Splinter Cell's. The game should be fast paced, not slow.
Hey! Splinter Cell are some of my favourite games!
I agree that Shinobi should be nothing like Splinter Cell in terms of gameplay, but I meant more the level design, so that you are dropped into a level and have various ways to get about/sneak around. OBviously in a Shinobi game it would be much faster, but you could dive out a window and ninja-shimmy across to another room, or you could wall jump up an elevator shaft to get to the same place etc.
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I say make a badass action game, loads of set peice battles a deep combat system IF YOU SO CHOOSE... bring back that tate system was it called? from Shinobi PS2 where you wizz around and do that cool kill animation.
YEAH... oh and i guess it can have some platforming too keep those whiners happy!
:afroman:
*Waits for melt down*
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I say make a badass action game, loads of set peice battles a deep combat system IF YOU SO CHOOSE... bring back that tate system was it called? from Shinobi PS2 where you wizz around and do that cool kill animation.
YEAH... oh and i guess it can have some platforming too keep those whiners happy!
:afroman:
*Waits for melt down*
Shinobi is an action platforming game, not a fighting game.
How can you make a deep battle system optional in a platformer? You sound like you want Joe Musashi to turn into a werehog. :roll:
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I say make a badass action game, loads of set peice battles a deep combat system IF YOU SO CHOOSE... bring back that tate system was it called? from Shinobi PS2 where you wizz around and do that cool kill animation.
YEAH... oh and i guess it can have some platforming too keep those whiners happy!
:afroman:
*Waits for melt down*
Shinobi is an action platforming game, not a fighting game.
How can you make a deep battle system optional in a platformer? You sound like you want Joe Musashi to turn into a werehog. :roll:
Nope I want him to turn into a badass fighting machine from mars...
Joe Musashi has a sword yes? he swings it at the enemies yes?... If you really want ot you can bash the same P,P,P,P combo in Bayonetta and not make use of the endless fun combos, yes?
Well there you go... We have still have an action plaformer... But we can also have nice sexy combat for me... best of both worlds everyones happy win win win.
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A sword is used for killing instantly, not tons of combos in the air. Shinobi games have always used this logic, even the crappiest of the them.
I just think it is stupid and has nothing to do with Shinobi to have a battle system, Shinobi was never like that. It is like, why not just play something like God of War instead? That is what you want, but to have SEGA on the boxart.
I do not see why you think it would be a good idea or would improve the series. Basically what you want is to make a entirely new series with the Shinobi name on it, that is just going to piss off way more fans than anything.
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A sword is used for killing instantly, not tons of combos in the air. Shinobi games have always used this logic, even the crappiest of the them.
I just think it is stupid and has nothing to do with Shinobi to have a battle system, Shinobi was never like that. It is like, why not just play something like God of War instead? That is what you want, but to have SEGA on the boxart.
I do not see why you think it would be a good idea or would improve the series. Basically what you want is to make a entirely new series with the Shinobi name on it, that is just going to piss off way more fans than anything.
Ah, but that IS a combat system. It's not a particularly deep combat system, but it WAS a combat system.
I don't know all that much about Shinobi, but I do know that Shinobi III had some enemies (even in the very first level) that took more than one hit to fell, and it also had bosses that took plenty of hits.
Now, I think that most enemies should be killable with one running swipe of the sword, or with a well thrown Kunai, BUT when you get to the tougher enemies and bosses, the combat system should be build around fluid and chaining attacks. EG. Big samurai lookin' mofo in front of you, instead of stopping and attacking, you should be able to double jump, throw a Kunai or two, then maybe land and hit a quick combination attack or something.
For bosses, who take even more attacks, let them have a pattern of attack etc, but when you get an opening allow for some big damage moves/combinations to fight the boss, rather than just having the one sword attack and one Kunai throw.
Does that sound like a good balance between the two ideas? You could have the fast paced action platforming with one hit kill enemies, then have some deeper combat for stronger baddies/bosses, or occasional areas (maybe) where there are lots of enemies around.
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In Shinobi games, there are enemies that take multiple hits, but never combos and stuff. You could get the power upgrade that makes you stronger, but at most enemies only took like three hits. It was also never really a fast platformer, the speed was optional, and that was good!
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Assassins do not do combos, they are supposed to kill in single strikes. Shinobi is also more about projectiles than using his sword, anyway. That is just his secondary weapon.
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In Shinobi games, there are enemies that take multiple hits, but never combos and stuff. You could get the power upgrade that makes you stronger, but at most enemies only took like three hits. It was also never really a fast platformer, the speed was optional, and that was good!
The bosses took more than three hits, and I suggest that the stronger enemies should only need a thrown kunai and a sword slash or two. I figure having some basic combo/attack links would be better than doing the same attack 2 or 3 times.
I agree it doesn't need to be a fast platformer, but that option should be there, and a good combat system would mean you don't need to be bogged down killing fodder enemies.
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In Shinobi games, there are enemies that take multiple hits, but never combos and stuff. You could get the power upgrade that makes you stronger, but at most enemies only took like three hits. It was also never really a fast platformer, the speed was optional, and that was good!
The bosses took more than three hits, and I suggest that the stronger enemies should only need a thrown kunai and a sword slash or two. I figure having some basic combo/attack links would be better than doing the same attack 2 or 3 times.
I agree it doesn't need to be a fast platformer, but that option should be there, and a good combat system would mean you don't need to be bogged down killing fodder enemies.
Exactly... shame some people don't like options in their games.
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Obviously the bosses would take more than three hits... They always have. Those are bosses... Even with this you almost always exclusively hit them with kunais.
Sharky basically wants something like God of War though, meaning like every enemy would take tons and tons of hits. He is missing the point the franchise and just thinks I am disagreeing because I do not want "Options". I just want it to be Shinobi, not every other damn hack n slash out there and have it to fall into obscurity because it is like everything else out there.
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Obviously the bosses would take more than three hits... They always have. Those are bosses... Even with this you almost always exclusively hit them with kunais.
Sharky basically wants something like God of War though, meaning like every enemy would take tons and tons of hits. He is missing the point the franchise and just thinks I am disagreeing because I do not want "Options". I just want it to be Shinobi, not every other damn hack n slash out there and have it to fall into obscurity because it is like everything else out there.
If you think God of War is a complex battle system you are mental.
Bayonetta is a complex battle system and it rocks!
:afroman:
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I am saying you are stupid and want to ruin a franchise because you think it would make it better to make it like everything else on the market, if you do not like Shinobi that is fine, just stop bringing in your crap saying how you can make it better. Just because you like a specific style of a game does not mean everyone else will and that EVERY action game needs deep battle systems.
Seriously, this just sounds like Sonic Unleashed. With that you wanted basic platforming and nothing else, but some people wanted a battle system, you know, an optional one? That is the werehog, and you know how everyone reacts to that, you especially act to it poorly. So I do not see why you so are for it here.
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I am saying you are stupid
I am saying you are stupid
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I am saying you are stupid
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I am saying you are stupid and want to ruin a franchise because you think it would make it better to make it like everything else on the market, if you do not like Shinobi that is fine, just stop bringing in your crap saying how you can make it better. Just because you like a specific style of a game does not mean everyone else will and that EVERY action game needs deep battle systems.
Seriously, this just sounds like Sonic Unleashed. With that you wanted basic platforming and nothing else, but some people wanted a battle system, you know, an optional one? That is the werehog, and you know how everyone reacts to that, you especially act to it poorly. So I do not see why you so are for it here.
I'm dissapointed that this is getting heated again, since I was hoping this would be a more sedate argument/conversation.
Well look, Sharky hasn't actually said he wants every enemy to take tons of hits to kill, so no need to jump on that just yet.
You are right, even the bosses were defeated mostly with Kunai, so I'll concede that. Having said that though, I think that they could introduce some more in depth fighting for bosses/big enemies without changing the game up too much.
We don't need it to be God of War, or to be Bayonetta, I'm not saying to turn it into a series of fights or anything, just that for when you do need to fight, like boss fights or bigger enemies etc, it might be more fun to have some fast paced combat in rather than just depend on the same two attacks repeatedly.
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I am saying you are stupid and want to ruin a franchise because you think it would make it better to make it like everything else on the market, if you do not like Shinobi that is fine, just stop bringing in your crap saying how you can make it better. Just because you like a specific style of a game does not mean everyone else will and that EVERY action game needs deep battle systems.
Seriously, this just sounds like Sonic Unleashed. With that you wanted basic platforming and nothing else, but some people wanted a battle system, you know, an optional one? That is the werehog, and you know how everyone reacts to that, you especially act to it poorly. So I do not see why you so are for it here.
Calm down babby, have peice cheese.
I love Shinobi 3, great game... play it all the time. As a 2D platformer it's fine to have one canned P,P,P attack animation. I'm totally cool with that.
In a 3D realm? well lets just say if Shinobi PS2 had a deeper battle system it wouldn't have been such a grind to get though the monotious levels. It was an action platfomer that could have also used a deeper battle system. I'm not saying make it a fighter... or make the enemies have 10 health bars... Just something more then a ONE BUTTON MASH MASH MASH.
Watching the same canned animation from start to finish is going to bore the majority of gamers these days to tears, me included. Maybe it was ok in 1995.
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Shinobi on PlayStation 2 actually WAS a hack n slash though. You were stuck in each section and had to kill every enemy that had large health bars to move on.
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In all fairness, Shinobi on PS2 did not sell for that same exact reason. People cited that it was no Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden, especially Ninja Gaiden since that game featured a simple to pick up and play and hard to master system.
Ninja Gaiden didn't start off as a game with combos, when it came back and had them; and did it great, everyone cheered. I think I agree with Sharky that if the Shinobi franchise wants to live on in 3-D, it will have to change things up.
Maybe offer ways to have one hit kills on some enemies if you hit them with enough speed. Like running and slicing will cut them in half, sorta like Shin Shinobi (Shinobi X) on Saturn. Maybe a system to hit back projectiles as well:
[youtube:2guz3rv6]a6M3bu6_KLY[/youtube:2guz3rv6]
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Well, with Ninja Gaiden, that originally started out as a beat em up with platforming elements in the arcade, so the end process of how it came to the Xbox worked on more than a few levels.
I can understand if/when Shinobi comes back, there will be some changes made, and that is okay. I just do not want it to change into everything else out on the market now. I guess considering SEGA's poor history with resurrecting franchises has gotten us more worried than anything.
But my point is, why would you want to change something so much just to appeal to people who never even cared about the franchise to begin with? Those kind of ideas lead to NiGHTS Journey of Dreams. SEGA has a fantastic new action series with Bayonetta, and frankly I do not think they need or have room for another one. Shinobi was actually more of a action/puzzle platformer to begin with, changing the style might be alright for a spinoff, but the main series? :x
Ryan already said he was not that big of a fan of the series. From what I can see it just sounds like he wants it to change so it can appeal to him more than anything.
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But Shinobi on the Playstation 2 sold very well... It was SEGA's second best selling game globally that year if I remember right. Ninja Gaiden didn't even come out until 2004, Shinobi was out long before it. Whilst Devil May Cry is more of a stylished based combat than anything else.
Kogen pretty much said what needed to be said, Joe Musashi's primary weapon only becomes his sword when he gains the powerup, and even in the original he had an unlimited supply of surikens. The game could easily be called a run and gun platformer than an action game. Would Shinobi sell if it was changed into a primary combat based? Most likely, would SEGA do it? Quite possible. But using that excuse can allow anyone to justify change in any franchise in SEGA's catalogue, you can say SEGA did the right thing with Sonic Heroes as they appealed to everyone and it became the best selling Sonic game since Sonic the Hedgehog 2. You can say that since Shining Force is selling better now, SEGA did right to change the art direction and so on.
But I agree with Sanus, what is the point of bringing back the IP if you are just going to change the fundamental principles? Just make a new series, call it Blood or something and about ninjas. If you are not going to follow the premise the original was based on, I see little reason to bring it back, outside of being a cynical attempt to cash in.
And no, Shinobi on the Playstation 2 wasn't a good example, it really could be a new series, the main character is different, the gameplay is set towards the hack and slash crowd and you are forced to fight several baddies, especially to charge up your sword.
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Shinobi should be all about throwing Kunai's and platforming. But the question is, how can you do that in 3D? It won't be fun to throw Kunais in 3D becaues you will probably have to use some sort of a lock-on button.
I really don't want the game to be Combo based like Bayonetta or something, that is not what made Shinobi fun.
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Shinobi should be all about throwing Kunai's and platforming. But the question is, how can you do that in 3D? It won't be fun to throw Kunais in 3D becaues you will probably have to use some sort of a lock-on button.
I really don't want the game to be Combo based like Bayonetta or something, that is not what made Shinobi fun.
Yes platforming slowly became the major part in Shinobi, especially in Shinobi 3, the second half of the game become extremely platforming heavy.
Shinobi was designed not to be a close combat but with kunai throwing in mind, most of the time in Shinobi you are taking down flying baddies, baddies with guns or hitting hard to reach targets not with your sword but with your projectiles. In Revenge of Shinobi getting up and close in the Military Base with most, mostly Rambo though, was a bad idea. Even other stages like Area 818 have you taking down enemies from afar (Which is also extremely platforming heavy, scaling skyscrapers and all)
Shinobi on the Playstation 2 was probably the first time where close combat was what you were meant to do and we all know how that fared with long time fans!
I guess considering SEGA's poor history with resurrecting franchises has gotten us more worried than anything.
Oh I missed this quote. You can add Shinobi on the Playstation 2 as a poor revival too. I mean as a new game, it's good, but it barely resembles much about Shinobi, seriously why do kunais only stun? Why am I forced to hit several baddies at once, where is the good platforming? A dash button is silly if you can just spam it etc At least the music was nice...
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Aki-at and Sanus were telling me a while back that Shinobi games on PS2 were really awesome, and when I said I heard they weren't very good you both got very cross with me. :|
Well either way, it seems the sticking point is, how do you make throwing kunais/shuriken fun in 3D? I guess you could go with making an extremely generous auto aim feature, where you if you aiming in the right quadrant at least, they will hit the enemy?
Or...
How about a FPS? First Person Shuriken game? Kinda like Mirrors Edge or something?
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I pictured it more like a third person shooter. I think a new Shinobi game designed specifically for Wii with pointing and shooting controls could turn out good if done by a good team, I guess.
And the PlayStation 2 Shinobi games are good, they just do not feel much like Shinobi... I am not upset about this though, because of Hibana.
(http://http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1044/kunoichibyphanaticafl5.jpg)
Oh yeah, and Joe is unlockable in them.
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Why exactly would it need to be 3D?
And since when were projectiles and platforming even hard to do in third person? It could just use lock-on.
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Why exactly would it need to be 3D?
And since when were projectiles and platforming even hard to do in third person? It could just use lock-on.
Lock-on would make the game too boring/easy.
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Why exactly would it need to be 3D?
And since when were projectiles and platforming even hard to do in third person? It could just use lock-on.
Lock-on would make the game too boring/easy.
Like Panzer Dragoon Orta.
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Aki-at and Sanus were telling me a while back that Shinobi games on PS2 were really awesome, and when I said I heard they weren't very good you both got very cross with me. :|
It's a good game on it's own but not trying to be Shinobi in 3D.
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If a Shinobi game was made on Bayonetta's engine I can tell you it would have too much screen tearing on Xbox 360 and pretty much suck on PS3.
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Well, they could just modify the engine.
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Modifying the engine to get it performing better on PS3 would mean a HEAVY modification. It's just because it seems to be designed with the Xbox in mind. Even though the PS3 has the superior hardware, that superior hardware is also quite different from that on the Xbox. Architectures. Aren't they fun? Bayonetta makes heavy use of a sort of cache memory that doesn't exist on the PS3 and isn't easily replicable because it's not your average memory chip. It's placed directly on the GPU and is really, really fast.
They'd be better off using some other form of framework like Unreal Engine 3 or their in-house technology for PS3, which would definitely see better results in its transition to Xbox. This is due to how the memory is allocated on both consoles. The Xbox has a shared pool 512MB, the PS3 has 256MB of RAM and other 256 for video.
This is why Sony says it's better for games to be developed with the PS3 as the lead platform and why they say the Xbox benefits from it. (lolz)
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Its OK, they can just make its own engine and be exclusive on PS3. :P
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PS3 has Yakuza and Valkyria. So, no.
(WHY U DOIN DIS GEORGE :cry: )
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I would not outright call the PlayStation 3 superior hardware, it depends on how you look at it.
To break it down easily for the non-nerds among us, there are just things some consoles can do better than others, and some things one can do, but the other cannot. The Xbox 360 is better with textures, the PlayStation 3 is better with shadows, etc etc. It is the reason the gore was severely toned down on Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2, the PlayStation 3 just could not handle that many textures.
Most likely Platinum wanted Bayonetta to be an Xbox 360 exclusive, but SEGA was like "Hey, I know how we can make more money!". I am betting on the engine just being scrapped honestly, might as well just make something that works great on both platforms and can cut down production time. If they could, I am sure they would put it on as many platforms as they could within budget.
But I guess SEGA is insane at times and do not really care so they might just do anything.
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I would not outright call the PlayStation 3 superior hardware, it depends on how you look at it.
Technically, and overall, it is.
It is the reason the gore was severely toned down on Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2, the PlayStation 3 just could not handle that many textures.
Because the game was designed with the Xbox 360 in mind in the first place. You would never get Uncharted 2 as it is on the Xbox 360.
I mean, saying the hardware is better depending on how you look at it is the same as saying the Dreamcast is, in fact, superior to the Playstation 2 just because it has a better sound processor (and it does, PS2 sound=shit) and a 56k modem.
Most likely Platinum wanted Bayonetta to be an Xbox 360 exclusive, but SEGA was like "Hey, I know how we can make more money!".
The game bombed. :cry:
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I think comparing the Dreamcast and PlayStation 2 is also fair. Dreamcast has far better video RAM and does not have that shitty filter. :lol:
The game bombed. :cry:
I think you meant to say it is the bomb? :shock:
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Not the point but so damn true. :lol:
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It may have bombed, but it still sold a hundred thousand units on PS3, which is better than zero.