Author Topic: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?  (Read 27219 times)

Offline Team Andromeda

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2015, 12:07:50 am »
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Also with this being spammed all over the internet you would figure someone would come out and denounce this "false" information. But it seems you are the only one. I am sorry, but if someone came out and twisted the truth on something so major in my companies history I would come forward about it.


Really ? The book and people like you make out that SEGA America was kept in the dark over the Saturn , proved that one wrong very easy  . Lets put another myth to bed now and that's that SEGA Japan and SEGA America didn't get on,or how the 32X wasn't SEGA America baby . Also what is clear is in every interview and every feature SEGA saw 3DO and Jaguar as a threat, not SONY . SEGA didn't have the 1st clue that SONY was going to go it alone after the NCL deal feel through .


Anway Here's was Scot Bayless and Marty Franz will tell you about the guys in SEGA Japan . And when I had time to go through my EDGE mag's I'll post the features will Phil and Ken and how SONY didn't want to deal with anyone after the NCL deal fell through and went alone.





« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 12:10:46 am by Team Andromeda »
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Offline EnternalHope

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2015, 11:01:19 pm »
In case you don't venture out to the main page, it's 32X Month at SEGAbits. We have several features lined up on the front page, so check it daily for new content! Alright, front page plugging over.


Anyway, thought I'd let the 32X talk spill into the forums by way of a discussion point that has been on my mind for a while now. As we all know, the 32X is not a beloved piece of hardware. It was a commercial failure, the library is small, and according to some it is a headache to connect to the Genesis.


But is is a bad video game console/add-on? What is your criteria for a truly bad console?


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For me, the 32X is not a bad console nor would it make my list of worst hardware of all time. For starters, it's not a console, it's an add-on. To own a 32X means you own a Genesis, so while the 32X library may be small, you are not limited to the 40 titles. If anything, the 32X expands the Genesis library available to the add-on's owners by 40. I'd much prefer to have a 32X than to not have one, as I prefer to have access to After Burner, Doom, Chaotix, Kolibri, Metal Head, MKII, Shadow Squadron, Space Harrier, SW Arcade, Tempo, Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing, and Zaxxon's Motherbase. Then there are the enhanced Genesis titles that, while not AAA by any means, are preferred on the 32X thanks to improved sound and visuals.


I have never experienced hardware failure with the 32X personally, so I deem it a solid piece of tech. Far more dependable than the SEGA CD in that regard. Sure it was a commercial failure, but it isn't 1994 anymore. As a piece of retro hardware I think the 32X is worth owning and is not a bad console/add-on at all. It has a fair share of quality must play titles, and it functions well.


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If we want to talk BAD game consoles, I'd point to the Jaguar CD, as it is notorious for hardware failure and has a library that is less than half the size of the 32X library. I'd also point to the Philips CD-i as a bad game console, if only because the thing is more of an education/entertainment machine than a game machine. They tried to go the game route, but failed most of the time. CD-i for the educational and non-gaming entertainment content? It's actually pretty cool. But for games, it is awful.




The 32X was a disaster. It was a BAD idea courtesy of Sega Amusements USA who designed it in the Summer of 1993 because they were completely in the dark about  project Aurora/Saturn(Sega Away 27 kept it top secret in Japan because the chipset wasn't assembled until the Fall of 1993, prior to that SOJ was focused on Jupiter) and were confused on which prototype hybrid SEGA of Japan was focused on. In early 1994, Jupiter,Saturn, and Neptune designs all hit SOA's offices from Japan.




32X COULD have been a well executed idea, had Sega actually put more time into R&D on the idea(building it with its own separate processor like Mega CD) and not rushed it out to the market.


My pick for a terrible console is a tie between CD-i and Game.com. CD-i was absolutely pathetic and poorly designed. Establishing Philips as one of the worst Electronic brands in the world. Poor on quality and price.


Game.com was a joke. A gimmicky attempt by Tiger to take on Gameboy after years of horrible,outdated monochrome handheld games. The execution was laughable at best.




SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money. Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end). I guess we can always point in hindsight, but this is one of the many times that SEGA has hurt itself because it was so busy fighting itself.



The reason why the SEGA Saturn was so complex and a bit difficult to program is two reasons: 1. SEGA of Japan didn't assemble the Aurora chipset design(System 32 with Model 2 3D tech) until late 1993 because they were mostly laser focused on Jupiter(System 32 with Model 1 3D tech). and 2. Nakayama wanted Saturn out for Japan in time for the Holiday season of 1994. They moved away from Jupiter after Model 1's technology failed to impress Amusement spectators at the 1993 JAMMA show in Japan. Originally in 1992, Hideki Sato wanted a full 3D only Model 2 based powerhouse. But SEGA felt that it would risk hurting its core Arcade business by driving people away from high cost Arcade games, so they focused on building a console designed to take on 3DO,PCFX/Turbo Force, Atari Jaguar and Nintendo Atlantis/Reality all mostly 2D machines. Ironically, during the mid 1990s, Arcades collapsed and people DID get driven away to 3D home consoles like PSX. The Aurora chipset was thrown together quickly in late 1993. The original prototype was actually Cartridge based. The name "Saturn" came from the next logical step in Sega's 32-bit CPU line. And it also insured that Model 2 was going to be the next Mainline Arcade Board not Model 1.


But in reality, Saturn was no more difficult to program than PSX2 if not easier and less complex. It did great in Japan because SOJ actually executed it right and kept 3rd party support. It was Sega of America who SCREWED UP. Stolar added insult to injury pressuring Sega of Japan to quickly develop Dural and had even Sega Amusements USA design its own chipset "Black Belt" while Naoya Tsurumi(SEGA Holdings'Ltd current Chief Operating Officer) designed the economical "Katana" which of course became Dreamcast. Stolar's gerrymandering is what pretty much destroyed Sega of America. At the time he killed Saturn in the States in April 1998, it had only been on the market for 3 years and after only 2  lackluster holiday seasons, it had FINALLY started to catch on in the US during 1997.


Stolar's decision also cut off profit and revenue SEGA could have earned during 1998.


Again regarding 32X, Mars' original Japanese design was a better idea. The American one however was NOT. The difference between 32X and Mega CD was that MCD was better designed and had a separate processor and better approach outside of the US, it wasn't the FMV gimmick Sega of America kept pushing it as.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:46:25 pm by EnternalHope »

Offline Team Andromeda

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2015, 05:43:26 am »
SEGA America knew full well of the Saturn in 1993 not least because the SH-2 were lifted from the Saturn . Looking over that the Jupiter was just a Cart based Saturn minus the CD-ROM and the 2 Meg and 1 Meg system and boot Ram with the option for the user to upgrade with a add on CD drive . Saturn was always going to be Sega main 32bit system hence the name of the hardware it's self .

32x was just dump as it was too late to the market the 3do and Jaguar flopped and to make matters worse it was cart based
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Offline EnternalHope

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2015, 02:54:49 pm »



Also, SEGA of Japan's 32-bit next generation project was codenamed "Project Aurora". Jupiter and Saturn aren't one and the same. They're separate low end variations of the same chipeset codenamed "Aurora", while the high end was full fledged Model 2 based.


Jupiter was Phase 1 of Aurora. A Cartridge based System 32 Model 1 3D tech design. It was in development throughout Mid 1992 to Summer 1993. It was scrapped in late 1993 for Phase 2 "System 32 Model 2 3D tech" dubbed "Saturn" due to it being the next logical step. SEGA got distracted by too many different prototypes from the same Chipset. Sega Away had briefly worked on an early 32-bit 2D only hybrid based entirely off of System 32 "Mars/Gigdrive" during late 1991, mid 1992. Mars was canned in late 1992. This is where 32X and Neptune came from. The scrapped parts of the canned Mars reached Sega  Amusements USA in Spring 1993.


Sega of America came up with the 32X design in 1993, because they were unsure about which design for Aurora Sega of Japan was going to use and . There were whispers and conflicted information reaching San Francisco offices because SEGA of Japan kept quiet about it until the Mid Autumn. SOA did not learn about the prototype Saturn until then. And by early 1994, had little interest getting on board with it. They were too focused on "Genesis 32" or Sega 32X. And were confident that keeping the Genesis going with another attachment was the way to go. They were wrong.


Saturn's lackluster performance in the West is entirely Sega of America's fault. They didn't shift focus on it until early 1995. The 32X was a complete DETOUR. And in 1996, its new CEO Bernie "Asstard" Stolar HATED the console and wanted to do away with it as quickly as possible. Saturn didn't lack 3rd party support because "it was hard to program" it lacked games and a good launch lineup because SOA never actively pursued 3rd party contracts for it.


Stolar's PR blunder at E3 1997 added insult to injury. After 2 lackluster years of sales, the Saturn was starting to do well in the States. Games were finally coming out and people were importing Japanese titles. As well as the price cut helping improve sales. When he killed the console in the Spring of 1998, it cut off potential profit for SEGA for the 1998 Fiscal year.


Saturn's potential was never realized because Sega of America's incompetence and delusional faith in 32X. They were so sure it was a product that consumers would buy that they focused majority of their resources and energy on it. When it turned out, it was an unwanted platform released to a disinterested gaming audience more interested about Saturn, they didn't even turn their full attention to Saturn or try to salvage the damage done.


Offline Centrale

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2015, 05:34:48 pm »
Saturn didn't lack 3rd party support because "it was hard to program" it lacked games and a good launch lineup because SOA never actively pursued 3rd party contracts for it.

That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers, there are a bunch that I'd never heard of before or since. Like THQ's imprint "Kokopeli" publishing In the Hunt. Or other publishing arrangements that I wouldn't necessarily expect - like Acclaim publishing Darius Gaiden instead of Taito publishing it themselves. In hindsight, maybe Sega of America should have taken on more third party titles to publish themselves, like they did back in the Master System days. The Japanese Saturn library is one of the finest console libraries in gaming history... it's a shame more of those games weren't brought to the West.

Offline Team Andromeda

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2015, 12:08:05 am »
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That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers,


Saturn had plenty of 3rd party support more so in the early years . The trouble was the Saturn didn't have marketshare inthe west to make it worth while for most 3rd parties to bother much with the system - that was its trouble .


Being hard to programe for is just cover for no market share, more so when systems like the N64, PS2, PS3 were much harder systems to handle
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Offline EnternalHope

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Re: 32X Month: What is your criteria for a "bad video game console"?
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2015, 02:11:52 am »
That's an interesting perspective. From what I've seen, among the Western 3rd party publishers, there are a bunch that I'd never heard of before or since. Like THQ's imprint "Kokopeli" publishing In the Hunt. Or other publishing arrangements that I wouldn't necessarily expect - like Acclaim publishing Darius Gaiden instead of Taito publishing it themselves. In hindsight, maybe Sega of America should have taken on more third party titles to publish themselves, like they did back in the Master System days. The Japanese Saturn library is one of the finest console libraries in gaming history... it's a shame more of those games weren't brought to the West.


The sudden, poorly explained "test marketing" blunder of E3 1995 made by Tom Kalinske hurt Sega of America's 3rd party relations. Kalinske did not properly explain that the Saturn "was not launching this weekend" but rather undergoing a test market prior to its September 2nd rollout. Kalinske's poor context made consumers and 3rd party publishers think the console was being rushed to the market and launched 4 months ahead of time. The publishers also had not been sought out by Sega of America for Saturn support until February of 1995. SEGA of America could have and SHOULD have spent 1994 on helping Sega of Japan win 3rd party support with Saturn while sticking to Genesis and Sega CD. They wasted that entire year on 32X. See how much of a complete misstep 32X really was?


The reason why it was difficult for Sega of America to get 3rd party support is because they waited too late to start sending out SDKs.


Sega of America's late entry into Saturn support is also why Sonic Xtreme got cancelled. Xtreme had started development as the very first from the ground up Mars/32X project back during September 1993. STI had spent 2 years developing the game as a 32X exclusive. When it was moved to Saturn in March 1995, STI found themselves between a rock and a hard place. They had NO clue how to program the Saturn because SOA NEVER properly trained them. To move the project over to Saturn, STI simply extracted the 32X engine onto Saturn's Assembly Middleware. Basically porting the whole 32X made game to Saturn instead of working from the ground up on Saturn's hardware.


Since STI didn't know how to code and properly program the Saturn to port from other hardware, they attempted to retool the project from the ground up on Saturn. This is where the Nights engine debacle came. Naka didn't like Xtreme(he personally was offended that STI didn't want to use Amy and instead created this Sally knockoff Tiara).Because he wouldn't allow the engine to be used, STI asked Peter Morewic, an engineer at STI who had undergone 3 months of training to properly utilize Saturn's development kit for help. He had little interest in Xtreme and since he had gotten skilled at Saturn programming he actually surprised them with the news that he had come up with his OWN Sonic Saturn game prototype "Sonic Pool" which was a full 3D game that utilized Saturn's 3D capabilities. He immediately asked for help in it and wanted STI to get fully involved with it. They declined. Because they were so focused on completing Xtreme, STI was pretty much disbanded by May 1996. Morewic tried to convinced its leftover programmers Mike Wallis and Chris Senn that Xtreme was doomed and that the Sonic Pool project was worth pursuing. But they didn't listen. In September 1996, Wallis threw in the towel and ordered Xtreme to be cancelled. Stolar's idea was both stupid and probably intentional: Port Sonic 3D Blast to Saturn. An already awful,slow, and boring gimmicky Genesis title to Saturn.


They should have listened to Morewic.




The Saturn really is a tragedy in the West. So much wasted potential. Think about what could have been, had SOA BOTHERED or CARED to support it from the very beginning.