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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: JRcade19 on June 26, 2015, 12:56:41 pm

Title: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 26, 2015, 12:56:41 pm
Congrats to all LGBT people in the United States on a hard fought and well deserved victory for equality today.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 26, 2015, 02:06:33 pm
For those that don't know: same-sex marriage is now legal in the entirety of the United States.

It's not over yet, but this is definitely a victory. We have a long way to go before everyone is readily accepted, but today's a day to celebrate. I'm not extremely excited myself, but that's more because I have bigger issues on my mind than marriage.

also cant wait to see a republican president get voted into office and this be the first thing they undo :')
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 26, 2015, 02:19:02 pm
It's not over yet, but this is definitely a victory. We have a long way to go

Next step: Mandatory Gay Marriage for everyone!
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 26, 2015, 02:48:29 pm
I genuinely can't tell if that's a joke or not.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 26, 2015, 02:50:42 pm
I genuinely can't tell if that's a joke or not.

It's a joke, I don't think that gay marriage should be mandatory at all.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 26, 2015, 02:53:51 pm
I get that, but most of the time people say stuff like that as "they're forcing it upon us" sort of thing. People who do that try to make it sound like a bad thing, and that's not cool.

Y'know I guess I should just ask; how does everyone here feel about the LGBT movement, and by extension, LGBT people? Bad thing, good thing, what?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: pcm92 on June 26, 2015, 05:21:39 pm
I get that, but most of the time people say stuff like that as "they're forcing it upon us" sort of thing. People who do that try to make it sound like a bad thing, and that's not cool.

Y'know I guess I should just ask; how does everyone here feel about the LGBT movement, and by extension, LGBT people? Bad thing, good thing, what?
I think that homosexuals should only be able to be married if it is still illegal for them to adopt children. A blood family is a complete family. Most people on this website will disagree with this. I imagine that five seconds after I post this, someone is going to post something like: "Waaaaaiiiiiiit! You're homophobic! You deserve to be in jail!" It is only my opinion though. The U.S. is supposed to be free. That means freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 27, 2015, 01:26:27 am
Hey, freedom of speech is great and all but a) you're in international waters and b) freedom of speech just means the government can't make you shut up and say you're wrong. There is nothing stopping me or anyone else saying that. And the U.S. truly being free is laughable at best (marriage equality is here, but racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, institutional discrimination, anti-LGBT laws, etc. are still very much alive).

That said, why do you think same-sex couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 27, 2015, 01:46:05 am
He mentioned "Blood" and "Complete" Families.

Both of which are nonsense IMO. "Blood families" are irrelevant since the majority of children put up for adoption are given to non-blood relatives. Adoption rates would drop to near 0 in that scenario, and that definition doesn't exclude blood relatives who are gay from adopting. "Complete" Families are equally nonsense as it equates a "complete" family to being a stable one. The fact that divorce rates were high enough without gay marriage somehow threatening people should throw that concept out the window.

It's essentially a fallacious appeal to emotion at best, and a non-radical, non violent 21st century of eugenic thinking(White people are better than black people/gays can't properly raise children) at worst.

That said this is merely my opinion, and I can be fairly blunt on select issues.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 27, 2015, 10:13:05 am
I think that homosexuals should only be able to be married if it is still illegal for them to adopt children. A blood family is a complete family.

A blood family? Children in foster homes and such generally are there because their blood family isn't interested or have died... That's the whole point. And trust me, some blood families are not that great... No kid wants to be raised in an orphanage, it can never compete with the undivided love and attention from loving parental figures. Does it really matter if they're living with two men or two women? If they have a good home environment?


Edit: Beaten!
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Spock on June 27, 2015, 05:09:47 pm
A blood family? Children in foster homes and such generally are there because their blood family isn't interested or have died... That's the whole point. And trust me, some blood families are not that great... No kid wants to be raised in an orphanage, it can never compete with the undivided love and attention from loving parental figures. Does it really matter if they're living with two men or two women? If they have a good home environment?


Edit: Beaten!

Pcm92 was not "beaten." He/She actually seems to agree with you. He/She supports gay marriage, just not adoption rights for gay couples. I don't even support marriage for them. This is not really a competition. These are just people's opinions. Gay marriage was never heard of until the Netherlands decided to make it happen for their economical gain in 2001. Since then, other countries have copied this and hypnotized their citizens to support it through their media. There are many problems with this. Being gay is not natural. Marriage should not be extended to same-sex couples because they cannot produce children together. Marriage is for procreation. Girls who are raised away from their fathers are reportedly at higher risk for early sexual activity and teenage pregnancy. Allowing homosexuals to wed could further weaken the institution of marriage. Can I perhaps marry my sister or have three wives?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 27, 2015, 06:36:21 pm
He isn't using "Beaten" as a word to signify victory. He's using it in the context that my post above explains his thoughts.

As for the rest of your post, I'm going to assume that you are pulling a very hard Poe because I find it hard to believe that such a poorly thought out, mass of hysterical information can be present on this forum. Differing opinions yes, but most of what you have posted is in many cases factually wrong or outright irrelevant.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 27, 2015, 06:43:49 pm
Jesus, Spock, "marriage is for procreation?" You do realize humans are the dominant species on the planet? We're not exactly at threat of going extinct.

Being gay not being natural is a straight-up myth. Would you agree being left-handed isn't natural? Because it's the same principle.

Acting like a gay marriage is a new thing is entirely laughable. The gay rights movement has been at work for the past century trying to get general public's opinion to accept them.

"Institution of marriage" is total BS. A) marriage started as a religious thing. Marriage only became a legality once church and state got together. B) Your right to marry is not affected by other people's right to marry. C) How is the institution of marriage "weak?" Is it because people can have multiple wives? That may not be a US thing, but in other countries, that's perfectly acceptable. Saying it's bad is outright xenophobic.

Gay people CAN bare children, provided they have a surrogate mother, in the case of lesbians, simply using sperm from sperm banks is enough. There are options other than "penis into vagina" these days.

"Hypnotizing the masses?" So you're one of those "gay agenda" people? Cause I assure you, the only thing on the gay agenda is "not dying today."

Finally, I get it that it's your opinion. But your opinion is not only harmful and narrow-minded, but your opinion is responsible for thousands of deaths in the US alone.

Plus, that doesn't stop me from debating it.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Spock on June 27, 2015, 07:26:38 pm
Jesus, Spock, "marriage is for procreation?" You do realize humans are the dominant species on the planet? We're not exactly at threat of going extinct.

Being gay not being natural is a straight-up myth. Would you agree being left-handed isn't natural? Because it's the same principle.

Acting like a gay marriage is a new thing is entirely laughable. The gay rights movement has been at work for the past century trying to get general public's opinion to accept them.

"Institution of marriage" is total BS. A) marriage started as a religious thing. Marriage only became a legality once church and state got together. B) Your right to marry is not affected by other people's right to marry. C) How is the institution of marriage "weak?" Is it because people can have multiple wives? That may not be a US thing, but in other countries, that's perfectly acceptable. Saying it's bad is outright xenophobic.

Gay people CAN bare children, provided they have a surrogate mother, in the case of lesbians, simply using sperm from sperm banks is enough. There are options other than "penis into vagina" these days.

"Hypnotizing the masses?" So you're one of those "gay agenda" people? Cause I assure you, the only thing on the gay agenda is "not dying today."

Finally, I get it that it's your opinion. But your opinion is not only harmful and narrow-minded, but your opinion is responsible for thousands of deaths in the US alone.

Plus, that doesn't stop me from debating it.
No. It doesn't stop you from debating it. I must ask you something though. How does my opinion kill people in the U.S.? The opinion that I have does not have anything to do with religion. I'm just tired of this "I'm gay, so I'm proud" stuff. I can't believe people compare it to civil rights. When did gay people go through slavery? When did homosexual rights start a war? The gay community has created its own vibrant culture. By reducing the differences in opportunities and experiences between gay and heterosexual people, this unique culture may cease to exist. I just get tired of hearing about it. Believe it or not, I actually think it's almost kind of a good thing that they legalized it just because I don't want to hear it. People should not have to pay their taxes for something they think is wrong. Legalizing this advances the homosexual agenda and unfairly tells its opponents that they are bigots. Once again, this is my opinion. I also must say that your opinion is fine too. Let's just try not to take this too far, ok?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 27, 2015, 08:03:55 pm
Welcome to the United States. We have this thing called the constitution. The 14th amendment of which explicit prohibits states from making discriminatory laws against any citizen. When you have gone so far as to not only deny a group of people the right to marry on TOP of making sure that their "civil unions" would never have equal treatment or benefits(DOMA)(such as Gays not being allowed to see their dying spouses in the hospital), you are engaged in statutory discrimination against your citizenship.

States do not have the Right to oppose the constitution and in excluding an entire class of people based on sexual orientation from equivalent privileges, they have done so. No one is paying taxes to support gay marriage. Married couples receive Tax BREAKS(in the US, the opposite happens in rare exceptions), so again, your ignorance is relatively astounding to me in this regard.

As to your war and slavery comments, while the latter is next to non existant, I can guarantee you the former is very well alive in Africa and many of the Middle East's major powers in the form of imprisonment and death penalties.



Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 27, 2015, 08:25:07 pm
How does my opinion kill people in the U.S.?

Gay people and basically any non-straight person is around five times (if not more) likely to be murdered in the United States alone.

Quote
I'm just tired of this "I'm gay, so I'm proud" stuff. I can't believe people compare it to civil rights.

So you're saying you just don't like gay people being open? What's wrong with that? Oh yeah, it's not "natural", apparently. Except it completely is. And gay rights IS a civil rights issue, civil rights doesn't end at black people. And even if it did, it hasn't ended for them anyway.

Quote
The gay community has created its own vibrant culture. By reducing the differences in opportunities and experiences between gay and heterosexual people, this unique culture may cease to exist.

And how? How are gay people reducing opprotunities and experiences for straight people? If anything, the discrimination against gay people at their jobs, schools, home life, social life, etc. is reducing OUR opprotunities. I genuinely don't understand how that affects straight people at all. And you really think, you really genuinely think that heterosexual people are the ones keeping the gay "culture" alive? Really?

Quote
I just get tired of hearing about it. Believe it or not, I actually think it's almost kind of a good thing that they legalized it just because I don't want to hear it.

You can stop hearing about our struggles when we stop struggling. And if you think the struggle ends at marriage, you're incredibly wrong.

Quote
People should not have to pay their taxes for something they think is wrong.

As Jrcade said, your taxes aren't paying for marriages. At all. You know what your taxes are paying for though? Drone strikes on innocent citizens in Iraq and other places in the middle east. It's also fuelling the war efforts there. Do you think you should be paying for that?

Quote
Legalizing this advances the homosexual agenda and unfairly tells its opponents that they are bigots.

It's almost as if telling an entire group of people they shouldn't have rights is a shitty thing to do.

Quote
Once again, this is my opinion. I also must say that your opinion is fine too. Let's just try not to take this too far, ok?

I'm having a civil debate. I don't think that's taking things too far.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 27, 2015, 09:17:41 pm
Homosexuality has been studied in mammals, birds, fish, reptiles and insects. It's as natural as it gets. If anything is unnatural its marriage... Marriage is nothing more than a man made social concept. So many marriages end in divorce because the sad truth is we're not designed to be a monogamous species. For most people 'love' has an expiry date and a lot of people get that 7 year itch; time to move on, time to sow our oats in someone else.

Marriage is unnatural and stupid and if gays want to the right to be as unhappily married as the rest of us then I say why the hell not?!
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 27, 2015, 10:03:35 pm
Just a note, I split this topic from the Random Thoughts Topic as I can see this becoming quite the debate and it isn't in keeping with the theme of the Random Thoughts topic.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 27, 2015, 10:18:51 pm
I was about to say...."SHARKY Y U NO 1ST AMENDMENT"

But then I saw this and was like..."ok.gif"
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: pirovash88 on June 27, 2015, 10:49:31 pm
Being gay is not natural?

The fuck am I reading this garbage for?

Honestly I'd rather this thread be closed. For the simple reason that I don't want to dislike someone because of their views. I want to come here and not worry about whether someone does or does not agree with how my brother lives his life.

This is a great site and I'd rather not even get into this.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 28, 2015, 12:00:45 am
I can agree to closing the thread if it is so wished.

My original post in the thoughts thread was as was stated in the OP, a simple congratulations. Debate was not intended. I did expect some responses, but not to the actual level of what I received relative to the simplicity of the statement(A simple Congrats).
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 28, 2015, 12:10:56 am
It's partly my fault, I was curious how everyone felt about it. I pretty much invited bigots to come in here and start talking shit. What can you do, I guess.

But yeah still, all the bigots can continue having their shitty opinion on why me and my friends shouldn't exist or have rights, and I'll continue quietly hating them. I mean hey, it's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on June 28, 2015, 12:27:01 am
It's a touchy subject. I myself should have probably made a separate thread for it even at the most simple of statements, so I'll share some of the blame here as well for failing to due diligence.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Barry the Nomad on June 28, 2015, 10:29:49 am
Funny how somebody with a Star Trek username can have such opinions...
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 28, 2015, 07:11:44 pm
I think we'll keep the thread open for the time being as having an outdated opinion isn't breaking the rules... At the first sign of a turn towards mindless insults- which I hope it doesn't, then we'll close it.

PCM and Spock are totally wrong in my opinion, but people aren't born 'bigots,' it's something they are taught. Often by parents, piers or religion. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people, just misguided. Thoughtfully challenging their beliefs is better than closing the thread and silencing them and in turn maybe cementing those beliefs.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Happy Cat on June 28, 2015, 07:32:21 pm
some quotes from various sources over the internet:

(http://hugelolcdn.com/hugegifs.com/i/6388.gif)

Quote
Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas, a Republican, issued a directive to state agencies saying that employees should not be penalized for refusing to act in violation of their beliefs. “No Texan is required by the Supreme Court’s decision to act contrary to his or her religious beliefs regarding marriage,” he said in a statement.

Quote
Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, a Republican candidate for president, warned that the court decision “will pave the way for an all-out assault against the religious freedom rights of Christians who disagree.”

Quote
Sen. Ted Cruz is ready to rain on the parade of Texas citizens celebrating the Supreme Court decision on Friday to legalize same-sex marriage throughout the country.

    On Saturday, the 2016 Republican presidential candidate said he “absolutely” believes that his state’s country clerks should deny marriage licenses to same-sex couples if they have a religious objection, in an interview with The Texas Tribune.

    “Ours is a country that was built by men and women fleeing religious oppression,” Cruz told the newspaper, “and you look at the foundation of this country — it was to seek out a new land where anyone of us could worship the Lord God Almighty with all of our hearts, minds and souls, without government getting in the way.”

(http://i.imgur.com/bu9vMGK.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/n6vCFKH.png)

(http://ntdaily.com/wp-uploads/2015/06/11650751_10153935478852506_1146315373_n.jpg)

to think that these people have power. It makes it all the more funny that the law got passed without their input, which is part of the reason they are so mad.

oh, and this is pretty good:
(http://i.imgur.com/3MyYRd2.png?1)
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 28, 2015, 08:03:57 pm
Is anyone else severely unsurprising that these are all coming from Texas? Let's be real, it would've probably taken them another thirty years before they made it legal in their state.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 29, 2015, 08:57:38 am
I think it's great that it's legal in the US. It contradicts the teachings of most churches, yes, but that's why Church and State are seperate in the first place. Churches don't need to allow it, just as they don't need to allow divorce either.

The one thing that is kind of strange is the way this came about. I understood that this decision was always at a state level, but to be overridden at a national level like it was is a sign that power is being removed from the states. I don't know enough about the US legal system but I imagine that can have repercussions later on. Considering it happened right after the Confederate flag was banned (itself being a symbol of states rebelling against the federal government) is probably a coincidence, but some feel it's all related.

Either way, I think gay marriage is a perfectly fine to legalise, happy it happened. In terms of homosexuals adopting or having children I'm still unsure of it. I'll openly admit that I don't know much about the subject, but it just feels to me that a child of either gender needs to have a male and female parent to balance them? Maybe that's not true, but just 'feels' important to me. Something I haven't wrapped my head around yet.

I am kind of tired of everyone changing their facebook avatars to rainbows and businesses putting up rainbow flags though. It just reeks of slacktivism and hashtag acitivism. It's especially funny because my gay friends are the ones who haven't changed their display pics and have carried on. I feel like it's almost a race for attention more than any real support.

I feel the same way about pride parades. Every one I've seen has become so commercial and more of a 'Freak Show' than anything to do with supporting people, sadly.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 29, 2015, 05:02:12 pm
In terms of homosexuals adopting or having children I'm still unsure of it. I'll openly admit that I don't know much about the subject, but it just feels to me that a child of either gender needs to have a male and female parent to balance them? Maybe that's not true, but just 'feels' important to me. Something I haven't wrapped my head around yet.

whether or not children need both male and female role models is beside the point when you take into account how many children are growing up with a single parent. (And growing up fine.) There are a LOT of single parents out there... It's ridiculous to argue that a single parent is better than two, whether they're two of the same sex or opposite. Plus in the case of most children up for adoption they have neither.

Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: seanieb on June 29, 2015, 06:29:24 pm
I found this thread completely randomly testing things, and I braced myself before I clicked it, but like looking at a car accident you just have to look.

I was raised in a single parent home and I'm definitely gay, and I've also fielded a lot of stereotyping from it. I tend to be pretty moderate on this kind of stuff but I wanted to acknowledge the whole fallacy of a family unit. I can be fairly sure in my situation my life would be certifiably harder if we had to keep my father around.

Love, morality and being raised right takes a good parent and a loving home, the composition doesn't matter. We should be thrilled that there's a whole huge swarth of loving homes that have opened up to children in the system, not lamenting that they'll somehow be corrupted by living in a non-traditional family more than not knowing what a stable home is.

I also had the fortune to be at the supreme court pretty close to the ruling, it was amazing! (I'm in the green shirt, nothing like DC to make you feel under dressed)
(https://scontent.fsan1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/11411968_10204803850679661_7562356093633958133_o.jpg)

Marriage has always been defined as a federal institution, you claim it on your federal taxes. If we're gonna be on the same playing field, then everyone should be in "civil unions" and marriage can return to it's ceremonial roots. But the Christians I talked to on the steps of the Court simply deflected me saying "why should we give up what we've had for hundreds of years". I think some people just don't understand that it's not okay to decide that some people are just second-class citizens.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Happy Cat on June 29, 2015, 08:41:13 pm
Alabama isn't going down without a fight! They've rebanned Gay Marriage and are requesting a retrial.

Quote
Although the Supreme Court last week ruled gay marriage bans unconstitutional, the Alabama Supreme Court on Monday effectively ordered probate judges not to issue same-sex marriage licenses for 25 days. The state's Supreme Court picked this amount of time because, technically, there is a 25-day period to file a petition to rehear the U.S. Supreme Court case.

http://www.newsweek.com/avoid-supreme-court-gay-marriage-decision-alabama-temporarily-bans-gay-348366
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on June 29, 2015, 08:55:37 pm
Expect the entire Southern US to pitch fits about this for a while. I doubt they'll actually do anything, they're just butthurt, like when republicans shut down the government because the health care act passed.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 06:54:14 am
I'm not getting into a debate about homosexuality and it's moral issues. Nor does it matter if I support it, am against it or just don't care.

What really troubles me about this whole ordeal is that, as of recently, if I wear something with a rainbow pattern people assume I'm gay/support the LGBT causes.
This pisses me off big time, because I enjoy rainbow patterns.

Take this shirt for example:
(http://www.thegailygrind.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/pMLB2-20821839dt.jpg)

It's a fucking nice shirt. But guess what, if you wear it, you're gay. It's even called a "pride" shirt.

I have nothing against homosexuals. I simply dislike flamboyant people, gay or straight. And this whole "pride" thing is very much flamboyant. I don't want to be a part of this, so now I can't wear sweet ass shirts.

This is really bothering.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 07:00:22 am
having an outdated opinion isn't breaking the rules...

people aren't born 'bigots,' it's something they are taught.

This is extremelly rude.

bigot
noun:
    a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

I'm not for nor against you, but being supportive of gays doesn't make you less of a bigot.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 07:22:54 am
This is extremelly rude.

bigot
noun:
    a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

I'm not for nor against you, but being supportive of gays doesn't make you less of a bigot.

I'm not talking about you, I was talking about Spock.

I'm not gay and I'm no more pro-homosexuality than I am pro-freckles or pro-snoring. The differences is people with freckle and people who snore don't get treated like second class citizens, but if they did I would have a problem with it! Because that is exactly what it's like when a government denies rights to some of its citizens because of such a mundane genetic trait as being gay...

As many as 1 in 10 people are gay, lesbian or bisexual... But you're not bombarded with flamboyant fairies, most of them you wont even realise they're gay unless they told you and I don't think wearing that shirt would make anyone automatically assume you're gay or even support it... Wear whatever you want, and if by chance you are accidently mistaken for someone who supports an unfairly treated minority then is that REALLY so bad?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 07:33:15 am
people with freckle and people who snore don't get treated like second class citizens

As many as 1 in 10 people are gay, lesbian or bisexual...

I don't think wearing that shirt would make anyone automatically assume you're gay or even support it...
if by chance you are accidently mistaken for someone who supports an unfairly treated minority then is that REALLY so bad?
Having a different opinion is not the same as opressing someone.
You can think homosexuality is wrong but still not give a rat's ass if gays marry or not. Or the other way around.
But claiming someone's opinion is "outdated" or "wrong" is the definition of a bigot. Please let's not behave that way in this friendly forum (this goes to you and anyone else that doesn't respect different opinions)

It's about 4% of population. Literally 0.4 in 10 people.

And yes, it is bad because I don't support it. Same thing if a shirt would make people believe I have some political view. I don't like being associated with causes I'm not involved in.

---

Another thing that pisses me off is the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.
Most people don't care about things that don't concern them, even if they have opinions about it.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 30, 2015, 07:46:48 am
whether or not children need both male and female role models is beside the point when you take into account how many children are growing up with a single parent. (And growing up fine.) There are a LOT of single parents out there... It's ridiculous to argue that a single parent is better than two, whether they're two of the same sex or opposite. Plus in the case of most children up for adoption they have neither.
Oh I agree 100% that some same sex parents would be much better than some biological parents. Some people in general just shouldn't be allowed to raise children.

And yes, single parents have  tough job, but can do a great job raising children too. Again I'm not saying that it should never be done.

Alabama isn't going down without a fight! They've rebanned Gay Marriage and are requesting a retrial.

http://www.newsweek.com/avoid-supreme-court-gay-marriage-decision-alabama-temporarily-bans-gay-348366

Is this moral opposition, or is it opposition to the federal government enforcing a decision that was previously the state's power? I've read a few articles but it wasn't clear.

And yes, it is bad because I don't support it. Same thing if a shirt would make people believe I have some political view. I don't like being associated with causes I'm not involved in.

You would not BELIEVE the shit I get for wearing my sweet swastika shirt around town.  I just like the sharp angles and bold colours of the design.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 07:54:24 am
You would not BELIEVE the shit I get for wearing my sweet swastika shirt around town.  I just like the sharp angles and bold colours of the design.
I know right.
Are you saying this is not a sweet ass design
(http://www.scottlively.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/bd_gay_nazi1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 08:27:48 am
Having a different opinion is not the same as opressing someone.
You can think homosexuality is wrong but still not give a rat's ass if gays marry or not. Or the other way around.
But claiming someone's opinion is "outdated" or "wrong" is the definition of a bigot. Please let's not behave that way in this friendly forum (this goes to you and anyone else that doesn't respect different opinions)

To be fair, I kept this topic open and gave room for dissenting voices so I don't think I'm that intolerant of different opinions. As I said, so long as it doesn't turn to mindless insults then it's a reasonable discussion.

I feel like these 'but my opinion matters!' arguments were probably the same ones that came up when they finally gave equal rights to women and black people in America.

It's fair to say 'respect my opinion' if the opinion was something like, 'the best flavour M&M is the blue one,' but when the opinion is 'I think a certain type of citizen should be treated as second class and afforded less rights than the rest of us for something they have no control over...' Which is basically what Spock is driving at. Then I think it's fair for me to call him out and say that's an outdated way of thinking that doesn't belong in modern society.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 08:57:53 am
when the opinion is 'I think a certain type of citizen should be treated as second class and afforded less rights than the rest of us for something they have no control over...'
Then I think it's fair for me to call him out and say that's an outdated way of thinking that doesn't belong in modern society.
He said he believes marriage is for procriation.
If that is his opinion, then gay marriage doesn't make any sense, of course. He never said he hated gays or that they were second class citizens. He focused on political agenda (which exists) and what he believes constitutes the basis of marriage.

Again, this "if you don't support, you hate" mentality is bogus.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 30, 2015, 09:01:07 am
Actually that brings me to a question. Is the primary desire for gay marriage the 'status' and official recognition of being married? Or is it more to do with the benefits in terms of legal statuses etc that come with marriage that was previously only available to hetero marriages?

Were the same benefits offered in the USA under a different title like 'De facto' relationship or something to same sex couples?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 09:04:33 am
I feel like these 'but my opinion matters!' arguments were probably the same ones that came up when they finally gave equal rights to women and black people in America.
Black people were enslaved, sold as cattle, killed, and for years couldn't interact with white people in normal social activities.
They even had separate bathrooms, water supplies. Hell, they had to give up their bus seat just because they were a different color. Cops were allowed to beat them up for jaywalking.

But sure, not being able to marry a bloke, same struggle.

EDIT:
I'm not hating, I just find these comparisions ridiculous.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on June 30, 2015, 09:21:02 am
Just read this and thought it was relevant to the thread:

Quote
No issue brings out so much hatred from so many Catholics as homosexuality. Even after over 25 years as a Jesuit, the level of hatred around homosexuality is nearly unbelievable to me, especially when I think of all of the wonderful LGBT friends I have.
The Catholic church must do a much better job of teaching what the Catechism says: that we should treat our LGBT brothers and sisters with "respect, sensitivity and compassion."
But God wants more. God wants us to love. And not a twisted, crabbed, narrow tolerance, which often comes in the guise of condemnations, instructions and admonitions that try to masquerade as love, but actual love.
Love means: getting to know LGBT men and women, spending time with them, listening to them, being challenged by them, hoping the best for them, and wanting them to be a part of your lives, every bit as much as straight friends are part of your lives.
Love first. Everything else later. In fact, everything else is meaningless without love.
https://www.facebook.com/FrJamesMartin/posts/10152861164141496 (https://www.facebook.com/FrJamesMartin/posts/10152861164141496)


From a Jesuit priest in the Catholic Church.




EDIT: Thanks, formatting!
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 09:26:17 am
He said he believes marriage is for procriation.
If that is his opinion, then gay marriage doesn't make any sense, of course. He never said he hated gays or that they were second class citizens. He focused on political agenda (which exists) and what he believes constitutes the basis of marriage.

He also said:

Quote
He/She supports gay marriage, just not adoption rights for gay couples. I don't even support marriage for them.

Quote
Being gay is not natural. Marriage should not be extended to same-sex couples because they cannot produce children together.

Quote
Allowing homosexuals to wed could further weaken the institution of marriage. Can I perhaps marry my sister or have three wives?


Firstly, just because HE thinks marriage is for procreation... doesn't mean we all have too. That is a belief for him personally and his future unfortunate wife... Let's face it, that's a pretty unpopular opinion and not a good reason to ban gay marriage. Should we also ban infertile couples from marriage? I mean WHY BOTHER RIGHT? Can't have kids!!

Secondly, homosexuality is as natural as it gets, observed in hundreds of species... It's marriage that is an unnatural human construct.

Finally I don't think allowing gay people to be classed as married is going to weaken an institution in which can be done at a drive thru, in Vegas, by Elvis with a hooker you just met.


Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 09:34:27 am
Firstly, just because HE thinks marriage is for procreation... doesn't mean we all have too. That is a belief for him personally and his future unfortunate wife... Let's face it, that's a pretty unpopular opinion and not a good reason to ban gay marriage.
He never said they should ban gay marriage. He just said he didn't support it, as you quoted.
As for what's popular or not, that doesn't matter one bit. Nowdays being gay is popular, yesteryear being a nazi was the shit. That doesn't mean nazis were right (or does it?!?!?1 *mistery*)

As for what's right or wrong, it all boils down to your belief system (not necessarily religion).
If I think homosex is a wrong thing, then of course I'll think gay marriage is a bad thing. That could be something I live by. But from holding an opinion to actually caring about what gays do or do not goes a long way.

We should all respect each opinion even if we think it's ridiculous. I've read some pretty ridiculous opinions in this thread (Spock's and others), but I prefer living by what Mademan posted.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 09:59:41 am
Okay no he never said the words 'I want gay marriage banned.' But I think it's pretty clear that he does hold that belief...

You just told me that the struggle for black people to gain equality isn't the same as the struggle for gays... So why you're comparing homosexuality with the Nazi party is absolutely beyond me. At least with women, black people and now gays it's the same basic thing; people who want to be treated as equal citizens... What a 1930's/40's German nationalist party has to do with gay rights in 2015 America I don't know.

Out of interest, why do you hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong? Or unnatural, or whatever it is you believe?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 11:12:46 am
I wasn't comparing gays with nazis, it was a joke lol
There are no differences in rights between gays and non-gays for decades now. The law used to define marriage as a contractual bond between a man and a woman. You could still marry someone of the opposite sex if you're gay, and you still couldn't marry someone from the same sex if you were straight.

There was no difference in rights. There simply wasn't a law that forseen marriage between two people of the same sex.
Now there is.

I believe in a God, and that he made men and women to bond in straight sexual relations. Since I believe in him, I also believe he makes the rules.
This doesn't mean I must hate teh gays. Just as some people like things I don't like, some people like the same sex better.
You could just label me under the "really don't care about it" category. I simply don't support it based on my belief system (and I've been wrongly called homophobic for that).
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 12:00:18 pm
Quote
There are no differences in rights between gays and non-gays for decades now. The law used to define marriage as a contractual bond between a man and a woman. You could still marry someone of the opposite sex if you're gay, and you still couldn't marry someone from the same sex if you were straight.

They were not granted the right to marry who they loved... Put yourself in their shoes. Tomorrow you wake up in a parallel universe where you are only allowed to marry a same sex partner. Actually spend a minute to think about that... Think about that first kiss on the alter, feel his strong manly tongue in your mouth, the bristles of his chin against yours... Feel that hot manly breath on the nape of your neck as you consummate your marriage on that hot summers eve on Brighton pier. Think about swirling his salty load around your mouth. Do you spit or swallow?

Sound appealing to you? No? Then now you understand why what you just proposed as equal rights is nonsense.

As for the reasoning behind your stance,  I kind of figured, it's pretty much always the case.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 12:08:58 pm
Sound appealing to you? No? Then now you understand why what you just proposed as equal rights is nonsense.

As for the reasoning behind your stance,  I kind of figured, it's pretty much always the case.
I didn't propose anything as equal rights. I was just showing it's NOT a question of rights, but rather a question of law.
No one was forcing gays to marry other sex people, nor forbiding them to love eachother. There was simply an absence of law. (There's some politics behind it as well, I understand. But my point stands)

I don't know if you're implying something by saying "it's much always the case". I'd rather not be discarded as a religious fanatic (which I'm not). I like good people, gay or straight.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on June 30, 2015, 07:03:07 pm
I didn't propose anything as equal rights. I was just showing it's NOT a question of rights, but rather a question of law.
No one was forcing gays to marry other sex people, nor forbiding them to love eachother. There was simply an absence of law. (There's some politics behind it as well, I understand. But my point stands)
Semantics... The end result is still the same; some citizens being afforded less than others because of the way they were born.


Quote
I don't know if you're implying something by saying "it's much always the case". I'd rather not be discarded as a religious fanatic (which I'm not). I like good people, gay or straight.

I'm only implying that religion is usually the reason behind the stance you have taken. Not that you're a fanatic.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on June 30, 2015, 07:22:33 pm
Semantics... The end result is still the same; some citizens being afforded less than others because of the way they were born.

I'm only implying that religion is usually the reason behind the stance you have taken. Not that you're a fanatic.
No it's not the same. It's politics. They take gays for fools.

Also, it's not religion, it's the person's moral system. There are homophobic atheists.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Happy Cat on June 30, 2015, 08:57:59 pm

Is this moral opposition, or is it opposition to the federal government enforcing a decision that was previously the state's power? I've read a few articles but it wasn't clear.

Actually that brings me to a question. Is the primary desire for gay marriage the 'status' and official recognition of being married? Or is it more to do with the benefits in terms of legal statuses etc that come with marriage that was previously only available to hetero marriages?

Were the same benefits offered in the USA under a different title like 'De facto' relationship or something to same sex couples?

In general states get to make their own decisions, unless it's a US wide law. Generally US laws are decided by the house, which is full of republicans that hate Obama right now, so nothing gets passed. So it makes it all the more funny that a law made to help poor people afford healthcare and a law to allow people to marry the same sex got passed on the same day. Completley bypassed the house of obama haters!

Naturally, the conservative southern states aren't happy about this, how dare poor people get health care and how dare someone is allowed to marry someone of the same sex! This is against gods wish! Too bad for them, in US law, government and religion has always been considered seperate, its just some of the crazy republicans that try to force christiantiy into US law, which why a ton of Southern states are bothered by this. The Southern US tends to be highly religious (and racist) compared to the north.

But yes, marriage in US law terms is just making a commitment to someone you want to spend your life with, and getting benefits like shared taxes, and the right to see your significant other in the hospital if they are dying, among other things. Has nothing to do with religion, and is about time it was allowed. It's not like churches are being forced to marry same-sex couples. Although I'm sure there is southern government institutions that feel they are in that situation.

I'm sure this guy is probably one of the people freaking out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on July 01, 2015, 07:58:07 am
No it's not the same. It's politics. They take gays for fools.

Also, it's not religion, it's the person's moral system. There are homophobic atheists.

Time to agree to disagree.

Sure there are homophobic atheists but they are usually the off the cuff 'gays are gross' type. Not the type to argue about the sanctity of marriage. An old family 'friend' of mine for example... He is atheist and his general consensus is; I don't care if they get married or what they do, just keep them away from me.

Like a lot of old homophobes he has delusions that his wrinkly skin, bald head and smokers teeth are cat nip to gays and if they got within sniffing distance of his old spice haze they'd be overwhelmed by some primal urge and swarm him like gay bee's on sexy honey.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: pcm92 on July 01, 2015, 11:52:39 am
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on July 01, 2015, 04:58:04 pm
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.

If it goes too far it will be closed for sure. For the time being it's reasonably calm debate and probably going to die down soon.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 01, 2015, 05:29:41 pm
I personally don't think it should be the governments business who can marry who; however, it's also not right for them to close down churches just because they don't believe in it. I think this topic is very controversial. I'm not an administrator, but it would be great if this thread was closed once it goes too far.

They closed down churches?

And if the government is offering benefits and certain conditions to married people, then it's absolutely their decision which individuals are eligible for those.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: JRcade19 on July 03, 2015, 09:12:58 pm
The one thing that is kind of strange is the way this came about. I understood that this decision was always at a state level, but to be overridden at a national level like it was is a sign that power is being removed from the states. I don't know enough about the US legal system but I imagine that can have repercussions later on.
The Supreme Court of the US is the highest court in the land, its primary purpose is to interpret the constution so as to ensure that the laws of the land are not in opposition to it. Everys state in the Union has sworn to follow the constitution.
Every state has the power to do what it wishes UNLESS:
A) That power is reserved for the federal government(immigration, diplomacy, currency) or
B) The action is unconstitutional

Section 1 of the 14th amendment of the USC
Quote
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Actually that brings me to a question. Is the primary desire for gay marriage the 'status' and official recognition of being married? Or is it more to do with the benefits in terms of legal statuses etc that come with marriage that was previously only available to hetero marriages?

Were the same benefits offered in the USA under a different title like 'De facto' relationship or something to same sex couples?
A little of both really to the first.

As for the second, Civil unions were NEVER equal in the United states. Even if Civil Unions were permitted, not all states are required to recognize them, unlike marriages. There are over 1400 federal benefits available to married couples that Civil Unions would never have access to. Here are just a few that Civil Unions would never be able to have:

1.  Immigration. Marry an American and your spouse can vouch for your citizenship. Civil Unions canot do so regardless of whether the state recognizes it or not.

2. If your spouse passes away, in a marriage, you can still get social security benefits, and their physical property to care for. In a Civil Union that property is not yours and either returns to the family or Federal Government. If your spouse forgot to write a will, the government will recognize your claims to property in their stead. Civil unions get a "LOLNO"

3. Married couples are entitled to Family medical leave. Civil unions are not. Child or spouse gets sick? Do they need to be taken care of? Too bad, you aren't married so suck it up.

4. If your spouse is injuired, as a married couple, you have the right to visit them immediately as "Next of kin." Under a civil union, the hospital has no such obligation to grant you much visiting rights at all.

5. As a married couple, if your spouse passes away, you have the right to the remains of your loved one, Civil partners do not.

6. If your spouse is killed in military service, you are usually compensated and aided by the military in your time of need. On top of this, you are given the option to bury them in a military graveyard with ceremony. Civil partners however can be ignored and often were and are not given the burial option.

7. You can claim wrongful death benefits if you have a child in a marriage and your spouse passes away. Civil unions do not have the right nor much of an ability to contest wrongful death.

8. Welfare and public assiatance. If you as a married couple are struggling, you can get help from the public at large/government. Civil partners are not eligible for these benefits period.

9. Join adoption. Self explanatory. Gays can be turned away just because they aren't married.

These are just a few of the 1400+ federal benefits that Civil Unions were explicitly denied. This isn't even counting to the fact that the opposition went so far as to create a federal law(Defense of Marriage Act) that literally stated that Only "Married" couples could receive the benefits.(It has been repealed since then)
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: MadeManG74 on July 06, 2015, 09:34:15 am
^thanks for the info, sounds to me like this is something a long time coming. I thought maybe that gay couples could get the same benefits and rights as others but under a different title, surprised that even that wasn't allowed.

Interesting how the law worked as well, I can see why it was enforced at a Federal Level as it does impede on the rights of individuals so would technically be unconstitutional?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: pcm92 on October 01, 2015, 12:07:32 am
How exactly is it unconstitutional? I mean, it doesn't say in the Constitution "Homosexuals will not be married in every state until 2015." Let's just be clear, I do think it should have been done a much longer time ago. I just don't know what people meant by saying it was "unconstitutional."
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: pcm92 on November 12, 2015, 05:44:49 pm
This guy is unfortunately going to prison too.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/11/12/judge-foster-child-lesbian-couple-lv.cnn
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on November 13, 2015, 05:51:43 am
This guy is unfortunately going to prison too.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/11/12/judge-foster-child-lesbian-couple-lv.cnn
Regardless of opinion, and the couple's legal right to adopt, why is the journalist presenting the news in that tone? Is this a normal thing there? It's as if she is trying to make a point at a coffee shop. Very non professional
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Spock on November 13, 2015, 06:46:29 pm
CNN is owned by Timewarner, which is one of Hillary Clinton's largest campaign supporters. The judge said today that he would in fact let them adopt the child. All he said is he didn't want to.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on November 15, 2015, 09:57:18 am
So even CNN has an agenda? What is going on with journalism?
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Sharky on November 15, 2015, 11:33:16 am
All American news is presented in that tone form what I've seen... There is always an agenda, a side taken... In the case of some news there is considerable spin to twist the stories into their favour. It's bizarre... Like a tabloid, but its the real new.
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: crackdude on November 15, 2015, 01:16:27 pm
Portugal only has 4 base channels. 3 show news, one does this (TVI), but the other two still try to be somewhat unbiased..

It just caught me off guard that CNN does this, damn
Title: Re: Gay Marriage Congratulations and Debate
Post by: Moody on November 15, 2015, 01:56:16 pm
Even Americans aren't used to the news being biased as hell. Most people don't even realize it, and in fact a lot of people for a long time thought CNN WAS unbiased. Maybe before, but definitely not anymore.