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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: ROJM on October 01, 2014, 10:53:54 am

Title: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 01, 2014, 10:53:54 am
Are people so over sensitive that they're complaing about this?
 
(http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2014/09/superman_score_comic_blue_shirt.jpg)
 
Doesn't people have anything better to protest about?
 
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/dc-entertainment-sexist-merchandise-outcry-737023 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/dc-entertainment-sexist-merchandise-outcry-737023)
 
 
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 01, 2014, 11:26:43 am
People these days race to be offended by anything.


I think a lot of people see it as a badge of honor like, 'Look guys, I care! I care about stuff!'.


It's incredibly frustrating, but I feel it's a fad that will die out soon. Either that or it's going to come to boiling point and we're going to start seeing more National Socialist governments being elected to stamp it out.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 01, 2014, 01:07:46 pm
(http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/536a53836da8110b2669d09f-1081-794/you-mean-a-woman-can-open-it.jpg)

I actually like SOME "sexism".
The quotation marks are there because shit like this isn't real sexism at all. Sexism is a real issue in many african and asian countries. In the developed world? Yea, not so much
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 02, 2014, 04:34:23 am
Quote
In the developed world? Yea, not so much

You tell that to the bloody feminists....
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 02, 2014, 02:05:01 pm
Feminists are insulting to women themselves.

Same way any radical pro-gay, pro-christian, pro-muslim and other radical pro-something activists are detrimental for the sane people within their respective communities.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 03, 2014, 05:33:51 pm
@ROJM

Yes, really!

Try again and pick a better shirt. You picked the safest choice.

@crackdude

Your first post lacks appreciation for historical context. That ad comes from the Good Old Days in the USA 50s. another segment of the ad says, continuing off of "you mean a woman can open it?":

"easily, without a knife blade, a bottle opener, or even a husband!"

The whole point is that the ad's message speaks of stereotypes about women's physical weakness and emotional/psychological dependency on men as leader or provider. There's also something ridiculous about the ad either presupposing a sense of empowerment  from being able to open a stupid bottle of ketchup or just the general suggestion that a woman being able to open ketchup by herself is for any reason actually shocking.

But I think your appreciation for "sexism" on some level speaks for itself. I can't imagine that there's any sexism that's good. and it does still exist, your comment about african and asian countries really just highlights the idea that feminism mostly has its origins int he West and has developed more in Western countries as a body of thought.

By the way, what exactly is "radical pro gay"?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 03, 2014, 05:42:23 pm
People these days race to be offended by anything.


I think a lot of people see it as a badge of honor like, 'Look guys, I care! I care about stuff!'.
It's incredibly frustrating, but I feel it's a fad that will die out soon. Either that or it's going to come to boiling point and we're going to start seeing more National Socialist governments being elected to stamp it out.

I am not surprised to see more claims about claiming feminists and the like are interested in what I assume is called "fake moral outrage" but I wanted to touch on some things...

A fad that will die out soon. Let's say that feminism, anti-racist movements, and any minority-positive body of thought are all fads and die out soon. What in your mind remains when they are done and they have been either sufficiently defeated or the people who keep these movements afloat get bored or what have you?

And how does this National Socialist government get propped up, or promote whatever message you are suggesting it will promote. Is there really any current government that sufficiently cares about race or LGBT issues to actively invest themselves promotion of either antifeminist or feminist viewpoints?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 05, 2014, 10:09:25 am
@ROJM

Yes, really!

Try again and pick a better shirt. You picked the safest choice.


Yawn...if you READ the article that i linked it with then you'd know that was the Tshirt that people was complaining about.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 05, 2014, 03:53:37 pm
Yawn...if you READ the article that i linked it with then you'd know that was the Tshirt that people was complaining about.

Then you realize that wasn't the only shirt people were complaining about, right? I'll point out the relevant text if need be.

In any case, there's an argument to be made that all apparel in question are problematic to varying degree.

For additional pictures, there's an article here if anybody is interested.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/)
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 06, 2014, 02:32:43 am
Then you realize that wasn't the only shirt people were complaining about, right? I'll point out the relevant text if need be.

In any case, there's an argument to be made that all apparel in question are problematic to varying degree.

For additional pictures, there's an article here if anybody is interested.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/)

The only thing that bothers me with that is "training". Regardless it's nothing to throw a fit over imo, just don't buy the shirt. Some people might like the significant other aspect to the shirt. I do, I'd consider buying a "Wonder Woman's Husband" shirt if it had a cool design, nothing offensive about the significant other aspect of it.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 06, 2014, 05:06:20 am
But in general women ARE physically weaker. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Nor with joking about it, as you can joke about men being childish or brute.

Quote
By the way, what exactly is "radical pro gay"?
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1386524.1372695777!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/new-york-city-gay-pride-parade-2013.jpg)
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 06, 2014, 05:37:57 am
But in general women ARE physically weaker. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Nor with joking about it, as you can joke about men being childish or brute.

I don't see anything wrong with joking about either. However it's important to discern between joke and seriously held view, there's not really evidence to suggest men are "childish", maturity is a tad subjective. Brutish is kind of an odd one too given the majority of our preeminent scientists and greatest minds have also been men but on the flipside, most violent criminals are men too. Regardless best not to stereotype folks, unless relying on significant data and the means of your discussion require generalities.

For the sake of comedy though, anything goes.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 06, 2014, 08:44:29 am
A fad that will die out soon. Let's say that feminism, anti-racist movements, and any minority-positive body of thought are all fads and die out soon. What in your mind remains when they are done and they have been either sufficiently defeated or the people who keep these movements afloat get bored or what have you?

And how does this National Socialist government get propped up, or promote whatever message you are suggesting it will promote. Is there really any current government that sufficiently cares about race or LGBT issues to actively invest themselves promotion of either antifeminist or feminist viewpoints?

When I mentioned it being a 'fad' I should have clarified that I meant in relation to things like 'pop culture critics' and nonsense like that. I don't mean meaningful forms of anti-racism and feminism, I'm talking about this weird 'slactivist' phenomena where people petition Nintendo and complain on NeoGAF about not being able to play a transgender in a video game or about characters not having French accents in a fantasy game or something.

As for the idea of right-wing governments I'm mostly referring to Europe. Look at Greece, Golden Dawn is a far-right fascist party that gained enough support to enter parliament. Look at the Austrian  MP Ewald Stadler going ballistic against the Turkish ambassador in relation to the 'One way tolerance' towards Turks.

Obviously it's not related to things like 'Social Justice Warriors' directly, but I do feel that the backlash against them leads to more conservative political views as a direct contrast/counter.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 06, 2014, 08:49:57 am
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/)

I just saw those T-shirts, and I really think this is a case of someone rushing to be outraged so they can look important. 'I only date heroes' being offensive because "WOMEN CAN BE HEROES TOO". Really? Holy shit, it's a $5 shirt made to sell to nerd couples who just walked out of watching the latest summer blockbuster.
Maybe I should get offended that a woman chooses to ignore men who don't conform to their unrealistic ideals of what a Hero is, and that shirt makes me feel inadequate and depressed because I don't have a physique like Superman or Batman, and it belittles me and emasculates me because of that.

As Taro said above, who would get up in arms if there was a 'Looking for my WONDER WOMAN!' shirt for guys?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 06, 2014, 03:30:04 pm
Then you realize that wasn't the only shirt people were complaining about, right? I'll point out the relevant text if need be.

In any case, there's an argument to be made that all apparel in question are problematic to varying degree.

For additional pictures, there's an article here if anybody is interested.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/03/sexist-superhero-shirts/16638283/)

No shit sherlock. But that one had the most complaints. Which is the reason why Hollywood reporter had that as their MAIN Image. And the reason why i went with THAT image. Geez...use you're frigging brains.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 06, 2014, 05:28:10 pm
(sorry, i can't quote properly)
Quote
I don't see anything wrong with joking about either. However it's important to discern between joke and seriously held view, there's not really evidence to suggest men are "childish", maturity is a tad subjective. Brutish is kind of an odd one too given the majority of our preeminent scientists and greatest minds have also been men but on the flipside, most violent criminals are men too. Regardless best not to stereotype folks, unless relying on significant data and the means of your discussion require generalities.

For the sake of comedy though, anything goes.

Well, yes. Jokes rely on stereotypes, and I think there's nothing wrong with that as long as they aren't blatantly negative or degrading ("all men cheat" "black people steal" "chinese have tiny dicks", and so on).

Some stereotypes make great comedy (I'm not mentioning any because people are way too fucking sensitive), but rarely do they reflect real life people.

Example:
You can joke about all americans being overweight.
Is this true? Of course not, but it makes good jokes.
Should anyone be offended? Well..if it doesn't reflect real life, why should they?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 06, 2014, 09:23:54 pm
Hopefully all yall can find your appropriate responses cause I just put them into one post

The only thing that bothers me with that is "training". Regardless it's nothing to throw a fit over imo, just don't buy the shirt. Some people might like the significant other aspect to the shirt. I do, I'd consider buying a "Wonder Woman's Husband" shirt if it had a cool design, nothing offensive about the significant other aspect of it.

That's...a view I didn't expect to see, or an angle I didn't think of. Would you mind saying what you think? Regarding "training"

But in general women ARE physically weaker. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. Nor with joking about it, as you can joke about men being childish or brute.

(image removed because it's large, if people want to go see it they can still check out crackdude's original post)

okay, so first note, what does this have to do with my original question about what sexism is "good"? like, I'm not debating on average that women are physically weaker than men today, but what meaning does that have anyway? we used to deal with lots of cultural messaging in the past that suggested women to be docile, like The Cult of Domesticity and certain excerpts from Poor Richard's Almanac. Also, I am very slender as a guy and lightweight, I don't think it means anything. It's one thing to be attracted to softspoken women, women who like to shop or gossip, or women who exhibit traits considered conservative or stereotypical or whatever, it's another thing to see it as a fundamental essence of being.

second, what is that? is that an image from a gay pride parade, how is it radical pro-gay? the whole point of LGBT-affirmative events (basically movements or events that promote LGBT stuff) is that they are underrepresented in society and are maligned by some people, in a way that is generally not experienced when someone is straight or "cis." all you have to do is look at some jokes about fags, dykes, etc, use of "gay" as pejorative. that isn't particularly radical.

I mean, "die cis scum" would be kind of dumb, but that's not what's going on here =P

When I mentioned it being a 'fad' I should have clarified that I meant in relation to things like 'pop culture critics' and nonsense like that. I don't mean meaningful forms of anti-racism and feminism, I'm talking about this weird 'slactivist' phenomena where people petition Nintendo and complain on NeoGAF about not being able to play a transgender in a video game or about characters not having French accents in a fantasy game or something.

As for the idea of right-wing governments I'm mostly referring to Europe. Look at Greece, Golden Dawn is a far-right fascist party that gained enough support to enter parliament. Look at the Austrian  MP Ewald Stadler going ballistic against the Turkish ambassador in relation to the 'One way tolerance' towards Turks.

Obviously it's not related to things like 'Social Justice Warriors' directly, but I do feel that the backlash against them leads to more conservative political views as a direct contrast/counter.

Regarding transgendered characters in games, are you talking about stuff like Mass Effect and Tomodachi Life? Because I've seen some of those discussions. I don't see what the problem would be...but for the fact that in order to be transgendered you have to either formerly be a different gender or desire to be a different gender, and you can't really convey that with one avatar, as far as we know.

French accents, are you thinking of VA's from different countries? That might be cool actually, I thought Xenoblade's VA cast was pretty refreshing. Some games can get stale with the VA cast, Johnny Yong Bosch, Yuri Lowenthal, Laura Bailey, etc. unless you are just throwing out hypotheticals for fun. anyway, slacktivism is a thing, but in any given cause some people are slacktivists and some people aren't, it's not really possible to judge that just by evaluating any one issue, has to be judged per person.

As for your political points, I'm sorta familiar with that, and Golden Dawn, which took parliament two years ago IIRC. The racially motivated ones are often a form of populism that involves into protofascism. Greece was in a crisis situation and in crisis political climates it's easier to convince the public of scapegoats for countries' problems. Cause people tend to want a solution. It doesn't help that sometimes Golden Dawn had decent PR, because they'd offer to help Greek citizens with like, food or something. I forget.

Your point about Social Justice Warriors and conservatism, well first I want to make the distinction between conservatism and autocracy/authoritarianism. You can have social hierarchy without government, there are some conservative people (or conservative-ish) who are, to put it MEGA broadly, anti-government. Anyway I think I know what you're generally saying. In political circles of minority ideologies, people are sometimes tempted to either violent or aggressive behavior, polemic, or autocratic governments so they can get their changes made quickly. i.e. Ecoterrorism, Pol Pot, etc.

That being said I don't see anything like that happening with feminism and racial equality stuff and etc. There is no organization that takes those issues seriously enough to do that right now, and no government who will do that. I don't figure the Black Panthers/White Panthers were facist, for example. They were anti-capitalist, and they had aggressive members, but I don't think they fit your description.

I just saw those T-shirts, and I really think this is a case of someone rushing to be outraged so they can look important. 'I only date heroes' being offensive because "WOMEN CAN BE HEROES TOO". Really? Holy shit, it's a $5 shirt made to sell to nerd couples who just walked out of watching the latest summer blockbuster.
Maybe I should get offended that a woman chooses to ignore men who don't conform to their unrealistic ideals of what a Hero is, and that shirt makes me feel inadequate and depressed because I don't have a physique like Superman or Batman, and it belittles me and emasculates me because of that.

As Taro said above, who would get up in arms if there was a 'Looking for my WONDER WOMAN!' shirt for guys?

Well, if you feel like some women do have unrealistic ideals about men, that could be totally fine and be something to explore, as long as nobody hates either gender. That was a central point for one female character in this (IMO great) movie, Don Jon, which came out a year ago... The whole idea here is that sometimes in media certain ideal of people are propped up above others and that ideal is often suggested to be more desirable. The argument is the industry is structured so that different depictions of people are drowned out and not everyone has the ability to separate reality from fiction.

As for Taro Yamada's idea, well in some of the shirts the problem also lay with the image, not just the words. =P But the whole point of feminism is that it suggests that society generally suggests women and men to be not equal in terms of worth and individuals supporting this view do harm. And that this is all A Very Bad Thing.

Just the words that Taro was suggesting seemed not big a deal though

No shit sherlock. But that one had the most complaints. Which is the reason why Hollywood reporter had that as their MAIN Image. And the reason why i went with THAT image. Geez...use you're frigging brains.

They all had complaints. Your second post that I replied to only referred to one shirt. I could still argue how that original shirt is potentially problematic though less so than some of the others IMO. The totality of the responses to all of the apparel in question is what prompted DC's acknowledgement.

I generally think that your portrayal of the issue was dishonest, tacit assumption that feminism is a frivolous concern aside. Sure, you disagree with the protestors' premise, that's fine. And I don't think overly formal writing is necessary either. But people criticizing DC's shirts were responding to a lot of their apparel, it wasn't just some isolated incident and the opening post misrepresented the issue.

This whole concept that feminism is frivolous is something I don't understand either. What is it that we assume people sympathetic to feminist ideas are going to be doing with their time instead of being interested in depictions of women in media? Do people raising issues related to feminism somehow take too many hours in a day/days in a year or otherwise cause too much hassle for media companies, artists, legislators, etc.? They're all getting paid either way.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 07, 2014, 03:39:37 am
I guess my issue with the term "training" is that it sounds like a job? I guess. It's also a bit sexist? I think about when I see women writing about "boyfriend training" shit and it's just like, grow. the. fuck. up. and find somebody who you get along with, you entitled, petulant, child.

 It's a small issue for me, it's not like I'm outraged. It's more like.... that's a bit dumb. Once more though, I think it's absolutely idiotic to be offended about the significant other aspect of the shirt, and says more about the person outraged than anything else.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 07, 2014, 06:07:18 am




They all had complaints. Your second post that I replied to only referred to one shirt. I could still argue how that original shirt is potentially problematic though less so than some of the others IMO. The totality of the responses to all of the apparel in question is what prompted DC's acknowledgement.

I generally think that your portrayal of the issue was dishonest, tacit assumption that feminism is a frivolous concern aside. Sure, you disagree with the protestors' premise, that's fine. And I don't think overly formal writing is necessary either. But people criticizing DC's shirts were responding to a lot of their apparel, it wasn't just some isolated incident and the opening post misrepresented the issue.

This whole concept that feminism is frivolous is something I don't understand either. What is it that we assume people sympathetic to feminist ideas are going to be doing with their time instead of being interested in depictions of women in media? Do people raising issues related to feminism somehow take too many hours in a day/days in a year or otherwise cause too much hassle for media companies, artists, legislators, etc.? They're all getting paid either way.

is that the best you can do? They all had complaints? That's tthe most stupid answer i've ever read. I said clearly that the superman and wonder woman one had the most complaints. MOST. Read the dictionary if you don't understand what that word means. Why? Maybe because of the fact it uses Wonder Woman..an iconic figure for women in pop culture in a position with Superman in a risque comment. The same with Superman whose image with most fans is always about how clear cut he is. So no doubt those two groups of people will complain. Then you have the feminists who will complain about something at a drop of a hat..as long as its popular enough in the public eye so they can get attention and so forth....

ITS POINTLESS its only a Tshirt and as you have stated it will make DC more money than not. Its like stupid blacks who complain about stupid whites using the N word than go and say it themselve while listening to rap records. Or people complaing after seeing a teddy bear get blown up. What the hell has happened to this world where everyone will cry after a litle pinch. Goodness gracious if Eddie Murphy or George Carlin was coming up in today's world no one would see their talent because people will lock them away because of oversensitivity. Arnie is right...the world has become a bunch of grilie men....
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: TruthEnigma on October 07, 2014, 09:09:11 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bytu9QPIYAAJGLI.jpg)

You know what, this is seriously wrong! Boys can be superheroes, girls cannot? Whomever designed these should be fired for being an idiot.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 07, 2014, 09:12:04 am
Women being encouraged to date only men who fit a narrow and unattainable ideal as represented by Superman?

SEXIST! Stop making men feel inferior because we can't live up to unrealistic standards!

Whoever designed those should be fired for being an idiot!
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 07, 2014, 01:15:03 pm
Women being encouraged to date only men who fit a narrow and unattainable ideal as represented by Superman?

SEXIST! Stop making men feel inferior because we can't live up to unrealistic standards!

Whoever designed those should be fired for being an idiot!

YOU'RE BEING RACIST AGAINST SUPERHEROES!!!....OMG!!!..I'M GOING TO COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 07, 2014, 01:50:10 pm
YOU'RE BEING RACIST AGAINST SUPERHEROES!!!....OMG!!!..I'M GOING TO COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

But just look at the facts! Crime is higher in all the neighbourhoods where Superheroes make up a considerable percent of the population. Look at Gotham City! They are obviously predisposed towards violence and crime.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 07, 2014, 02:36:53 pm
OMGOD! SO RACIST! OMIGOD!WAIT TILL I TELL MY BLACK SUPERHERO LESBIAN PIMP WITH ONE LEG ABOUT YOU....AND I'M A FEMINIST...TOO...YOU BAD BOY...
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 07, 2014, 07:10:01 pm
inthesky,
most homosexuals don't identify themselves with the gay-parade folks..

It's degrading. People do what they want with their personal lives, but a man butt-naked on the streets with his schlong bouncing about is a buffoon, gay or otherwise.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 07, 2014, 07:12:49 pm
I find it funny how there's always a black guy in every movie, but he is always completely stereotypical and/or the first to die.

People pretending to be "socially-righteous" are the worst.. Either make a great black character or don't bother.. Unless it's on purpose for comedic effect.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 08, 2014, 08:49:38 am
inthesky,
most homosexuals don't identify themselves with the gay-parade folks..

It's degrading. People do what they want with their personal lives, but a man butt-naked on the streets with his schlong bouncing about is a buffoon, gay or otherwise.

I agree, I was asked by a friend to go to some Pride parade recently, and I thought it was really ridiculous. It was super commercialised for one thing, with a load of corporate sponsors just advertising and appropriating slogans and stereotypes for their product. The rest was just exhibitionism. I could tell most people were there to see a 'Freak Show' of sorts, which just made me sick, I wanted to leave.

There were a few things I respected like 'School Teachers supporting homosexuals', 'Catholics supporting gay rights' and things like local firemen/police in their uniform supporting homosexual colleagues etc, but that was the exception to the rule of topless men and women running about in face paint with water guns shaped like dicks and generally carrying on like fools. What has that got to do with being gay?
Hopefully all yall can find your appropriate responses cause I just put them into one post

That's...a view I didn't expect to see, or an angle I didn't think of. Would you mind saying what you think? Regarding "training"

okay, so first note, what does this have to do with my original question about what sexism is "good"? like, I'm not debating on average that women are physically weaker than men today, but what meaning does that have anyway? we used to deal with lots of cultural messaging in the past that suggested women to be docile, like The Cult of Domesticity and certain excerpts from Poor Richard's Almanac. Also, I am very slender as a guy and lightweight, I don't think it means anything. It's one thing to be attracted to softspoken women, women who like to shop or gossip, or women who exhibit traits considered conservative or stereotypical or whatever, it's another thing to see it as a fundamental essence of being.

second, what is that? is that an image from a gay pride parade, how is it radical pro-gay? the whole point of LGBT-affirmative events (basically movements or events that promote LGBT stuff) is that they are underrepresented in society and are maligned by some people, in a way that is generally not experienced when someone is straight or "cis." all you have to do is look at some jokes about fags, dykes, etc, use of "gay" as pejorative. that isn't particularly radical.

I mean, "die cis scum" would be kind of dumb, but that's not what's going on here =P

Regarding transgendered characters in games, are you talking about stuff like Mass Effect and Tomodachi Life? Because I've seen some of those discussions. I don't see what the problem would be...but for the fact that in order to be transgendered you have to either formerly be a different gender or desire to be a different gender, and you can't really convey that with one avatar, as far as we know.

French accents, are you thinking of VA's from different countries? That might be cool actually, I thought Xenoblade's VA cast was pretty refreshing. Some games can get stale with the VA cast, Johnny Yong Bosch, Yuri Lowenthal, Laura Bailey, etc. unless you are just throwing out hypotheticals for fun. anyway, slacktivism is a thing, but in any given cause some people are slacktivists and some people aren't, it's not really possible to judge that just by evaluating any one issue, has to be judged per person.

As for your political points, I'm sorta familiar with that, and Golden Dawn, which took parliament two years ago IIRC. The racially motivated ones are often a form of populism that involves into protofascism. Greece was in a crisis situation and in crisis political climates it's easier to convince the public of scapegoats for countries' problems. Cause people tend to want a solution. It doesn't help that sometimes Golden Dawn had decent PR, because they'd offer to help Greek citizens with like, food or something. I forget.

Your point about Social Justice Warriors and conservatism, well first I want to make the distinction between conservatism and autocracy/authoritarianism. You can have social hierarchy without government, there are some conservative people (or conservative-ish) who are, to put it MEGA broadly, anti-government. Anyway I think I know what you're generally saying. In political circles of minority ideologies, people are sometimes tempted to either violent or aggressive behavior, polemic, or autocratic governments so they can get their changes made quickly. i.e. Ecoterrorism, Pol Pot, etc.

That being said I don't see anything like that happening with feminism and racial equality stuff and etc. There is no organization that takes those issues seriously enough to do that right now, and no government who will do that. I don't figure the Black Panthers/White Panthers were facist, for example. They were anti-capitalist, and they had aggressive members, but I don't think they fit your description.

Well, if you feel like some women do have unrealistic ideals about men, that could be totally fine and be something to explore, as long as nobody hates either gender. That was a central point for one female character in this (IMO great) movie, Don Jon, which came out a year ago... The whole idea here is that sometimes in media certain ideal of people are propped up above others and that ideal is often suggested to be more desirable. The argument is the industry is structured so that different depictions of people are drowned out and not everyone has the ability to separate reality from fiction.

As for Taro Yamada's idea, well in some of the shirts the problem also lay with the image, not just the words. =P But the whole point of feminism is that it suggests that society generally suggests women and men to be not equal in terms of worth and individuals supporting this view do harm. And that this is all A Very Bad Thing.

Just the words that Taro was suggesting seemed not big a deal though

They all had complaints. Your second post that I replied to only referred to one shirt. I could still argue how that original shirt is potentially problematic though less so than some of the others IMO. The totality of the responses to all of the apparel in question is what prompted DC's acknowledgement.

I generally think that your portrayal of the issue was dishonest, tacit assumption that feminism is a frivolous concern aside. Sure, you disagree with the protestors' premise, that's fine. And I don't think overly formal writing is necessary either. But people criticizing DC's shirts were responding to a lot of their apparel, it wasn't just some isolated incident and the opening post misrepresented the issue.

This whole concept that feminism is frivolous is something I don't understand either. What is it that we assume people sympathetic to feminist ideas are going to be doing with their time instead of being interested in depictions of women in media? Do people raising issues related to feminism somehow take too many hours in a day/days in a year or otherwise cause too much hassle for media companies, artists, legislators, etc.? They're all getting paid either way.

I don't mean to ignore you, but there's a lot to respond to here, and I generally check this site in quick breaks at work or the like so I haven't tried to address everything.

Tomodachi life/Mass effect: I was thinking more of AC Unity and the backlash against no females. I don't see why it's an issue frankly, the story was created with the idea of a male lead/s. Why should they be 'required' to include a female? Same with any other title, in any medium. As I said, should we vilify David Lean for not having any speaking roles for females in Lawrence of Arabia? Should we vilify Sergio Leone for not having any females in 'The Good, the Bad, the Ugly'? If it doesn't fit with the creative vision, why should there be a forced inclusion of any type of character?

As for the Voice acting one, that was AC unity, some people were complaining about Ubisoft not giving the characters French Accents. Although it makes no sense to have them speaking english with a french accent, they may as well be speaking English with an American accent. It'll spare us bad stereotype Pepe-le-Pu style voice acting. Yet people took it upon themselves to complain about a non-issue.

I personally would have prefered it to be entirely in French with subtitles, but I know most people hate subtitles which is a shame.

RE: The goverment stuff, it was probably a stretch on my part, but I see a loose correlation between the general attitude and issues that caused Golden Dawn getting support and general xenophobia etc  in a lot of countries/societies. I guess I just mean that it seems likely there will be more conservative/right wing emergence in opposition to strong left wing style movements, even if it's just small scale.

As for:

Quote
This whole concept that feminism is frivolous is something I don't understand either. What is it that we assume people sympathetic to feminist ideas are going to be doing with their time instead of being interested in depictions of women in media? Do people raising issues related to feminism somehow take too many hours in a day/days in a year or otherwise cause too much hassle for media companies, artists, legislators, etc.? They're all getting paid either way.


I don't think all feminism is frivolous or silly, but I'm talking about people like Anita Sarkeesian (sp?) who calls herself a 'pop culture critic' (what the fuck is that?) and takes to youtube to argue how video games are sexist, or people who complain about Comic Book covers depicting women too busty or buxom.


I don't mind them speaking their mind, but it seems to blow out to a ridiculous level sometimes.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 09, 2014, 12:56:27 am
is that the best you can do? They all had complaints? That's tthe most stupid answer i've ever read. I said clearly that the superman and wonder woman one had the most complaints. MOST. Read the dictionary if you don't understand what that word means. Why? Maybe because of the fact it uses Wonder Woman..an iconic figure for women in pop culture in a position with Superman in a risque comment. The same with Superman whose image with most fans is always about how clear cut he is. So no doubt those two groups of people will complain. Then you have the feminists who will complain about something at a drop of a hat..as long as its popular enough in the public eye so they can get attention and so forth....

ITS POINTLESS its only a Tshirt and as you have stated it will make DC more money than not. Its like stupid blacks who complain about stupid whites using the N word than go and say it themselve while listening to rap records. Or people complaing after seeing a teddy bear get blown up. What the hell has happened to this world where everyone will cry after a litle pinch. Goodness gracious if Eddie Murphy or George Carlin was coming up in today's world no one would see their talent because people will lock them away because of oversensitivity. Arnie is right...the world has become a bunch of grilie men....

And you think feminists are the touchy ones!

Your now present insistence on "MOST" in the above first paragraph wasn't in your OP, which I was responding to. There was barely anything in your OP besides one shirt and the link, and your other comments about how dumb the whole thing is. The whole thrust of my complaint on the OP is that you took arguably the least offensive shirt and offered barely context in what comes across as an attempt to portray the idea that the whole thing was a small-scale conflict. There's a ton left out of this whole story in your OP. I could take care of the whole "bloody feminists and people are oversensitive" thing separately.

The idea with the shirt in the OP anyway doesn't have to much to do with Superman being clean cut IMO. It's that one of the most prominent female superheroes, an Amazon, is being eclipsed by superman Scoring and Doing It Again. The art for that shirt was actually taken from another cover (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/129154-licensed-dc-comics-shirts-congratulate-superman-for-banging-wonder-woman-prepare-young-women-to-marry-batman.html) where Wonder Woman had Superman in her lasso. But in this, it's just Superman doing it again and according to the shirt Wonder Woman is just there. To say nothing of "scoring women." If media companies are going to make money off of boring blockbusters and pop culture icons why can't they make money with non sexist material? That's the point of my money-making comment, not the idea that it doesn't matter what's being made - I think it should matter.

Interesting comment on George Carlin by the way. He had some bits that were supportive of women like the thing on Abortion, and also criticized feminists. I think his feminism criticism is short-sighted. He thought it was a movement comprised of bored and privileged women that was problematic for being both not concerned with ethnic minorities and tied to a form of class privilege. He agreed with a lot of fundamental feminist ideas but didn't like the restrictions on speech. Well...so what, there's nothing functionally different from being criticized for saying socially hostile things, in comparison to the other stuff he says against other parties like when he rails against conservatives for various reasons, elected officials, obese people, even people who ride bulls. It puzzles me that he was selective about what people were too sensitive about and what apparently he was appropriately sensitive about, because he was very much interested in social issues and took a bunch of left wing positions.

But that's the thing about social issues and politics, it didn't start or end with George Carlin, insightful as he often was, and I mostly really like the guy! But I also know he made a really dumb rape joke and thought it was funny to call Wayne LaPierre's (NRA person) last name fruity. Like, I don't even care for Wayne LaPierre's politics, but that's pretty dumb. He hit ton of right notes IMO and funny notes but didn't get everything and sometimes said dumb shit.

And that's quite a sexist comment at the end of your post there! What was so important about what you said that you have to call it "girly men" behavior?

inthesky,
most homosexuals don't identify themselves with the gay-parade folks..

It's degrading. People do what they want with their personal lives, but a man butt-naked on the streets with his schlong bouncing about is a buffoon, gay or otherwise.

What does it matter if they do or don't identify with themselves with a broader gay community that celebrates their sexuality? Lots of people from a particular hobby or interest do not identify themselves with any broader group. People can be fans of Sonic but just because there are people in the community that like furries or like fanfiction and such doesn't mean the identification needs to be shunned. It's the same thing as MLP fans have had to deal with on occasion. I like Smash Bros but don't consider myself a part of a Smash Bros community. I like Mega Man and do consider myself an active fan of Mega Man games. None of this has anything to do with some image issue that other people may have.

It isn't entirely mature, I would think not everyone is familiar with the history of an ideology and oppression and blah blah blah but that's sometimes a high hurdle. You don't necessarily have to do so to celebrate being gay. These things often has to do with sexual liberation and ownership of identity. Some of these people might come from restricted backgrounds that either discouraged being gay or trans outright or perhaps just flamboyant behavior in general. It's about not letting the narrative for what's socially acceptable be written by people who may be hostile to their sexual identity. like, if I were gay I wouldn't be interested in participating in these parades more than once but there isn't anything problematic.

And why does someone doing what they want with their personal lives become an issue when they in your opinion are being a buffoon? Well...who cares? I mean, if one hypothetical individual can reach the point where they realize that stereotypes and image often mean little, then why is it different here? It's more a problem when someone becomes a douchebag.

I agree, I was asked by a friend to go to some Pride parade recently, and I thought it was really ridiculous. It was super commercialised for one thing, with a load of corporate sponsors just advertising and appropriating slogans and stereotypes for their product. The rest was just exhibitionism. I could tell most people were there to see a 'Freak Show' of sorts, which just made me sick, I wanted to leave.

There were a few things I respected like 'School Teachers supporting homosexuals', 'Catholics supporting gay rights' and things like local firemen/police in their uniform supporting homosexual colleagues etc, but that was the exception to the rule of topless men and women running about in face paint with water guns shaped like dicks and generally carrying on like fools. What has that got to do with being gay?

Your first paragraph touches on an interesting point. At times businesses align themselves with certain social causes to increase their profile. This works both towards "progressive" causes (for one example, look up "Greenwashing" and have a field day) and "conservative" causes (Hobby Lobby, Chick Fil-A, Shooter Grill). The sincerity of any particular entity varies on the situation but also I veer on the edge of being cautious. "CBS Cares"...well, CBS is a pretty large group, I'm sure somebody doesn't. But in any case I guess it's better that more things support stuff like gay marriage instead of taking the opposite stance.

As for the second, well IMO it's sort of like what I wrote for crackdude. It isn't entirely mature, I would think not everyone is familiar with the history of an ideology and oppression and blah blah blah but that's sometimes a high hurdle. These things often has to do with sexual liberation and ownership of identity. Some of these people might come from restricted backgrounds that either discouraged being gay or trans outright or perhaps just flamboyant behavior in general. It's about not letting the narrative for what's socially acceptable be written by people who may be hostile to their sexual identity.

I don't mean to ignore you, but there's a lot to respond to here, and I generally check this site in quick breaks at work or the like so I haven't tried to address everything.

Tomodachi life/Mass effect: I was thinking more of AC Unity and the backlash against no females. I don't see why it's an issue frankly, the story was created with the idea of a male lead/s. Why should they be 'required' to include a female? Same with any other title, in any medium. As I said, should we vilify David Lean for not having any speaking roles for females in Lawrence of Arabia? Should we vilify Sergio Leone for not having any females in 'The Good, the Bad, the Ugly'? If it doesn't fit with the creative vision, why should there be a forced inclusion of any type of character?

As for the Voice acting one, that was AC unity, some people were complaining about Ubisoft not giving the characters French Accents. Although it makes no sense to have them speaking english with a french accent, they may as well be speaking English with an American accent. It'll spare us bad stereotype Pepe-le-Pu style voice acting. Yet people took it upon themselves to complain about a non-issue.

I personally would have prefered it to be entirely in French with subtitles, but I know most people hate subtitles which is a shame.

RE: The goverment stuff, it was probably a stretch on my part, but I see a loose correlation between the general attitude and issues that caused Golden Dawn getting support and general xenophobia etc  in a lot of countries/societies. I guess I just mean that it seems likely there will be more conservative/right wing emergence in opposition to strong left wing style movements, even if it's just small scale.

As for:


I don't think all feminism is frivolous or silly, but I'm talking about people like Anita Sarkeesian (sp?) who calls herself a 'pop culture critic' (what the fuck is that?) and takes to youtube to argue how video games are sexist, or people who complain about Comic Book covers depicting women too busty or buxom.


I don't mind them speaking their mind, but it seems to blow out to a ridiculous level sometimes.

Just in case, because I think you quoted my entire post, you didn't have to read all of it. I tried to compartmentalize whose responses were meant for whom. Unless you were trying to respond to the entire thing.

And pop culture critic is pretty straightforward. She takes a critical eye to pop culture, generally from the lens of her brand of feminism. Not to say that I always agree with her but, it's a straightforward definition. There are way more pop culture critics out there besides her, it's a practice older than modern times, and is not exclusive to feminists.

I find it funny how there's always a black guy in every movie, but he is always completely stereotypical and/or the first to die.

People pretending to be "socially-righteous" are the worst.. Either make a great black character or don't bother.. Unless it's on purpose for comedic effect.

I too would like awesome black characters. =D Instead of lazier efforts. What a surprise what people can have in common =p
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 09, 2014, 01:42:00 am
Here we go with that SJW censor joke nonsense, rape jokes can be funny. You don't get to deem what is and isn't funny and what should and shouldn't be said, comedy can go anywhere it damn well pleases and so long as the joke is well written and well told it's good comedy.

I've heard and laughed at jokes about topics far more grim than rape, from famous and well known comedians. People who push this BS narrative that some topics are "out of bounds" and "not okay" don't know comedy, period.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 09, 2014, 01:50:15 am
Here we go with that SJW censor joke nonsense, rape jokes can be funny. You don't get to deem what is and isn't funny and what should and shouldn't be said, comedy can go anywhere it damn well pleases and so long as the joke is well written and well told it's good comedy.

I've heard and laughed at jokes about topics far more grim than rape, from famous and well known comedians. People who push this BS narrative that some topics are "out of bounds" and "not okay" don't know comedy, period.


Is the irony lost on you that your position suggests that what's comedic and what isn't, what's well written/told and what isn't are all appropriate limits but somehow all topics are all open season and have no limits? That apparently people who can't appreciate any type of "well-done" comedy, from the blackest of humor to the most vanilla family friendly stuff, simply don't know comedy and good writing? How can you reconcile your position on freedom of expression with social criticism, which should be perfectly acceptable? I would expect otherwise from a position predicated on what's arguably subjective like "good craftmanship" and "understanding of comedy", especially from a vantage point that says I can't deem what should be said. A spin on your post:

"Here we go with that absolutely protected freedom of speech nonsense, social criticism can be helpful. You don't get to deem what is and isn't funny and what should and shouldn't be criticized, comedy can go anywhere it damn well pleases and so long as the criticism is well written and well told it's good criticism."

Which, subjectivity isn't bad, but you support absolutely protected freedom of speech, I support criticism of rape jokes and speech. Like "that's so gay" and other such things intended as humor. The fact that rape jokes can be funny doesn't mean much. There is an audience for any joke, however poorly crafted or well told or tasteful in subject matter or lacking insight or blah blah blah blah. Funny isn't an essential quality. It's a reflection of personal taste and social values. Rape jokes are problematic because of their relation to rape culture.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 09, 2014, 02:07:13 am
Is the irony lost on you that your position suggests that what's comedic and what isn't, what's well written/told and what isn't are all appropriate limits but somehow all topics are all open season and have no limits? That apparently people who can't appreciate any type of comedy, from the blackest of humor to the most vanilla family friendly stuff, simply don't know comedy and good writing? I would expect otherwise from a position predicated on what's arguably subjective "good craftmanship"

Which, subjectivity isn't bad, but you support absolutely protected freedom of speech, I support criticism of rape jokes and speech

I'm firmly of the opinion that if you think there are topics comedy cannot be written about you don't grasp comedy from the get. I am not speaking to the subjectivity held within the form, I'm speaking to you not understanding the form in the first place. You say you support criticism but that's reductionist based on my past brushes with you, when you say "criticism" you don't mean critique in the artistic sense; you mean criticism in the sense of expressing disapproval and pressure. You support exerting pressure to get a certain type of content, that you dislike, off the market so to speak.

If you supported critique of comedy overall I'd be on board but you support critique, specifically of that content which doesn't align with your narrow world view and explicitly for the purpose of decreasing its prevalence.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 09, 2014, 03:31:22 am
I'm firmly of the opinion that if you think there are topics comedy cannot be written about you don't grasp comedy from the get. I am not speaking to the subjectivity held within the form, I'm speaking to you not understanding the form in the first place. You say you support criticism but that's reductionist based on my past brushes with you, when you say "criticism" you don't mean critique in the artistic sense; you mean criticism in the sense of expressing disapproval and pressure. You support exerting pressure to get a certain type of content, that you dislike, off the market so to speak.

If you supported critique of comedy overall I'd be on board but you support critique, specifically of that content which doesn't align with your narrow world view and explicitly for the purpose of decreasing its prevalence.

first, I edited the post you responded to. I don't know if this changes anything but especially since this is different page it's possibly of interest to you. the words that are in your post that belong to me should still be there.

Anyway, you're supporting similar stances that I've responded to in the past. This talk about art is just a variation on absolutely protected freedom of speech, in the form of creative expression. All art can be related to a social or personal aspect, whether from the audience or the author. It's highly presumptuous to think that in art if someone cannot appreciate some unspecified, fundamentally subjective barometer of craftmanship, predicated on accepting all subject matter, they just don't understand art at all. There's painting technique, there's the horizon line, the warm and cool, etc., and then there's just art appreciation - which is possible with or without prior knowledge or intense post-viewing reflection. I criticize craftmanship of games based on mechanics and sometimes social implications. I don't need to accept everything creative at face value. I don't need to accept a piece of art on a personal level to understand it. Especially when at times, personal expression has real consequences that can be reasonably protected against. This is the point of, among other things, certain Triggers, and moderation teams in forums.

I still don't see how you don't grasp the irony of insisting that all expression be absolutely protected while saying social criticism is harmful. They are all forms of speech. If one form of speech can compete with another in a market (i.e. comedians competing for attention) and affect the...competitive viability of something, so to speak, it's effectively no different to criticize any sort of character of a piece of art, whether it be social character or craftmanship character. It is just as natural and fair. Your position about what speech can be protected is internally inconsistent.

Ehh...referring to things as a market didn't sit well with me. Anyway - of course people can make art of whatever they want, and somebody can find something funny. That's the variation in tastes and personality. You can also create elaborate or implied rape jokes, rape jokes that show off "delivery technique." This isn't shocking. The point is, there are certain situations or jokes when moderation is desirable, especially when they presuppose slighting other people. I mean, I don't mind jokes about how I suck at basketball or would lose an arm wrestling contest to a ferret, etc. The point is, not everyone separates art or fiction from reality because the influence of fiction can be either conscious or subconscious, and while checking out all sorts of things is good to learn about what kinds of different things are out there, people often gravitate to art that reflects their tastes. The social criticism that I'm interested in is primarily interested in promoting more positive portrayals of things related to social justice, but if there are certain pieces or forms of speech that are harmful to social justice or are just plain unreasonably insensitive ("Fox rapes on Final Destination!"), so be it. Especially since society can prove itself slow to social change. Some claims in the name of progress or sensitivity I could see as unreasonable, and some are not unreasonable, in any case it is more desirable to have that radar than to operate without it.

By the way, you and I have never talked about art before, I don't know if you're familiar with me critiquing things from a crafting standpoint at all...=P we talked only politics as I recall.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 09, 2014, 07:29:05 am
And you think feminists are the touchy ones!

Your now present insistence on "MOST" in the above first paragraph wasn't in your OP, which I was responding to. There was barely anything in your OP besides one shirt and the link, and your other comments about how dumb the whole thing is. The whole thrust of my complaint on the OP is that you took arguably the least offensive shirt and offered barely context in what comes across as an attempt to portray the idea that the whole thing was a small-scale conflict. There's a ton left out of this whole story in your OP. I could take care of the whole "bloody feminists and people are oversensitive" thing separately.

The idea with the shirt in the OP anyway doesn't have to much to do with Superman being clean cut IMO. It's that one of the most prominent female superheroes, an Amazon, is being eclipsed by superman Scoring and Doing It Again. The art for that shirt was actually taken from another cover (http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/129154-licensed-dc-comics-shirts-congratulate-superman-for-banging-wonder-woman-prepare-young-women-to-marry-batman.html) where Wonder Woman had Superman in her lasso. But in this, it's just Superman doing it again and according to the shirt Wonder Woman is just there. To say nothing of "scoring women." If media companies are going to make money off of boring blockbusters and pop culture icons why can't they make money with non sexist material? That's the point of my money-making comment, not the idea that it doesn't matter what's being made - I think it should matter.


Stop trying to defend you're ignorance. The article which i linked USED that image as their opener. So did i. It also had the most complaints. When it really was a harmless T shirt to begin with. And acting that you couldn't even tell the point goes to show how stupid you are when it was obvious to begin with.

And yes it was to do with the fact that Superman was in that Tshirt that generated a lot of complaints. Superman is an iconic character to some..even sacred. People don't like that character going outside of what they think is a flag holder to all things decent in america. Man of Steel got complaints because it wasn't the superman they knew. He was shown to be causing the damage to the city and hardly saving people. So don't give me this people didn't complain about superman crap..where we live in a society where people complain about things from a drop of a hat. And then you add Wonder Woman and you got a lot of trouble on you're hands. As for your other comments about being eclipsed by superman..yes that's what the feminists were complaing about. but it wasn't just about that that was the center of complaints.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 09, 2014, 07:55:01 am
And that's quite a sexist comment at the end of your post there! What was so important about what you said that you have to call it "girly men" behavior?
But he said 'Grillie men'.
He meant BBQ enthusiasts. I for one, support this new-found love of grilling!
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 09, 2014, 09:09:26 am
But he said 'Grillie men'.
He meant BBQ enthusiasts. I for one, support this new-found love of grilling!

...

I've been had. well played, you two.

=p
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 09, 2014, 03:33:51 pm
inthesky,
if gays can roll around being flamboyant all they want in your opinion, then why can't I roll around with my homosex jokes and "sexist" tshirts?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 09, 2014, 06:59:50 pm
@inthesky, I'm a little funky on stuff from the dentist's office, so excuse any mistakes. Regardless, given our last discussion occurred largely on the basis of you taking an off the cuff, joking remark making light of liberals and then attempting to pseudo-intellectually convert it into a position I seriously held? You can use flowery language, you can write walls of text it doesn't conceal the fact that you and people like you, largely condone criticism solely to exert pressure and decrease the prevalence of a certain type of content you dislike. #cancelcolbert is not an artistic critique of Colbert Report, it's a movement creating pressure to remove content it sees as undesirable, that's very explicit. Much like #gamergate pursuing boycotts against gamasutra is seeking to create pressure to remove content it finds undesirable, that's a consumer right, no doubt about it; in both cases. It's not artistic critique. I didn't support #cancelcolbert but I still supported its right to exist, the right of your "social justice criticism" to exist but I'm going to call a spade a spade.

If you think when somebody is making a joke they are serious, or tacitly supporting something, that represents a severe misunderstanding of comedy in its most basic form. Full stop. Hogan's Heroes was not an endorsement of Nazi POW camps, Jerry Seinfeld joking about the holocaust is not a pro-holocaust position, Alec Baldwin playing with the term rapier and turning it into an ongoing rape joke with Seinfeld is not an endorsement of rape, Arrested Development's use of analrapist for Tobias Funke is not an endorsement of anal rape. The argument is preposterous and reeks of extremist narrative hogwash.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: inthesky on October 12, 2014, 02:08:14 am
inthesky,
if gays can roll around being flamboyant all they want in your opinion, then why can't I roll around with my homosex jokes and "sexist" tshirts?

I would suggest it because one of those situations you described doesn't presuppose discrimination on the other. Which is also to say, I don't know what kind of shirts you're talking about, but if they are actually sexist then that's my position

@inthesky, I'm a little funky on stuff from the dentist's office, so excuse any mistakes. Regardless, given our last discussion occurred largely on the basis of you taking an off the cuff, joking remark making light of liberals and then attempting to pseudo-intellectually convert it into a position I seriously held? You can use flowery language, you can write walls of text it doesn't conceal the fact that you and people like you, largely condone criticism solely to exert pressure and decrease the prevalence of a certain type of content you dislike. #cancelcolbert is not an artistic critique of Colbert Report, it's a movement creating pressure to remove content it sees as undesirable, that's very explicit. Much like #gamergate pursuing boycotts against gamasutra is seeking to create pressure to remove content it finds undesirable, that's a consumer right, no doubt about it; in both cases. It's not artistic critique. I didn't support #cancelcolbert but I still supported its right to exist, the right of your "social justice criticism" to exist but I'm going to call a spade a spade.

If you think when somebody is making a joke they are serious, or tacitly supporting something, that represents a severe misunderstanding of comedy in its most basic form. Full stop. Hogan's Heroes was not an endorsement of Nazi POW camps, Jerry Seinfeld joking about the holocaust is not a pro-holocaust position, Alec Baldwin playing with the term rapier and turning it into an ongoing rape joke with Seinfeld is not an endorsement of rape, Arrested Development's use of analrapist for Tobias Funke is not an endorsement of anal rape. The argument is preposterous and reeks of extremist narrative hogwash.

the dentist is whatever, is fine, so don't worry about that.

The liberal joke? We had a talk about liberals apparently being oversensitive and exploring why that view is held, which...incidentally, was the starting point for everything else we talked about. In any case I know the difference between social critique and artistic critique already.

As for my take on "socially bad jokes", I already know a joke about a subject doesn't have to support or condemn any one particular stance on it. That's not my position so I'm not arguing for anything you're suggesting in your hypotheticals. It's possible to make jokes without any personal investment. The suggestion is that they can be insensitive and in certain contexts are harmful or not worth bothering to say, regardless of the teller's feelings/intentions. Like the person who prompted a SWAT team after joking about having Ebola while boarding a plane. I would also extend that to stuff like 4Chan/a random individual's liberal use of the word "fag". Or Louis CK, and his routine about using the word "faggot." And thank you for your positive evaluation of my posts =)
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 12, 2014, 06:24:14 am
Why did the women cross the road?

I don't know, but what is she doing out of the kitchen?
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: ROJM on October 12, 2014, 06:59:09 am
LOL!
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 13, 2014, 04:56:30 am
I've never understood why English is a living, breathing language capable of change to allow for words like gay to be re-appropriated to refer to male homosexuals versus happiness but "retard" and "faggot" cannot be re-appropriated to mean "stupid". Especially as "faggot" was re-appropriated to be derogatory for homosexual men from its original cigarette reference in the first place.

Other than the inherently subjective moral basis of course but logically it's a bit of a contradiction in my eyes. Mind you I usually avoid words like those myself but I don't perceive them to be as offensive as so many others because I do believe that their meaning has genuinely changed for large groups of people out there.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on October 13, 2014, 05:39:57 am
Shut up you gay retarded faggot. Don't be a happy stupid cigarette.

(You are totally right, shit makes no sense)
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: MadeManG74 on October 14, 2014, 08:50:41 am
British Dictionary definitions for faggot Expand
faggot1
/ˈfæɡət/
noun
1.
a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel
2.
a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron
3.
a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faggot)


Definition #3 :o
Now I want a faggot in my mouth! Mmmm!
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: tarpmortar on October 29, 2014, 01:41:20 am
Also @inthesky I agree with you partially, obviously bomb jokes probably shouldn't be made on planes for example. A plane does not make a comedy venue though, so yes, context DOES apply. As regards professional comedians, I disagree and think CK should continue to use whatever words he likes. He's quite arguably the finest comic alive today and just because some people are offended by his vocabulary choices really means very little.

I think what's annoying about the critique you mention is the self-righteous, moral absolutist stances that often accompany the critiques we're discussing. Many individuals refuse to acknowledge that their critique is subjective, particularly within these arenas (in my anecdotal experience) and state so many of their views as facts. Furthermore, they talk down to those whom choose to dissent, using tactics like dogpiling and such to silence opposition. The only time I've seen critics from a non-ideological background undermine and condescend one another that way in mainstream society was Siskel and Ebert. Their contempt was legendary and I find it telling how commonplace it is within the circles which promote ideologically based criticism.

I fail to understand the opposition to allowing individual people the ability to determine what succeeds and what they like for themselves. It's worked well for so many years and I fail to see the point of pursuing censorship against content one finds offensive. I find a lot of content offensive, I simply choose to ignore it rather than hound the people creating it.
Title: Re: Sexist superhero Tshirts...really?
Post by: crackdude on November 24, 2014, 02:37:40 pm
Speaking of airplanes,

As an airplane is about to crash, a female passenger jumps up frantically and announces, "If I'm going to die, I want to die feeling like a woman." She removes all her clothing and asks, "Is there someone on this plane who is man enough to make me feel like a woman?" A man stands up, removes his shirt and says, "Here, iron this!".