Author Topic: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents  (Read 12213 times)

Offline Radrappy

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 11:10:47 pm »
Yeah, the whole this is really embarrassing.  Of all the companies to pick a fight with, Level 5?!  Good natured, innovative, and well loved Level 5??  Im even more surprised by how everyone on the forum jumped on Sega's side with this one.  It's a ridiculous lawsuit and is going to end in Level 5's favor.  Talk about a PR disaster. 

Offline jonboy101

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2012, 12:27:34 am »
Yes, those "idiot" gamers. How dare they stick up for Level-5 when the game was completed BEFORE the patent was given.

Game Completion: 2008
Patent: 2009

Level 5 has said they plan to fight back - it takes AGES to LOSE this bad.

I'm not sure Joe is arguing that they're idiots for defending Level 5, per se (and I have been known to misread him before), but rather, that the industry is, in general, full of ungrateful idiots who get a good laugh at Sega's products and innovations - which then become industry standard half a decade later. I think he makes a legitimate point.

There is one really fantastic interview Yu gave back in the mid 90s, describing the dual processing design of the Saturn. He argued that only about one in one hundred programmers would be able to maximize the potential of Saturn's engines; that the Saturn is a much more capable machine than a Playstation in the right hands, but that most "junk" programmers would rather just use the Playstation programming libraries and be done with it.

This, to me, illustrates a very serious problem that existed in the industry in the 90s, and one that has only become worse in the last decade. Yu's junk programmers are becoming more common. There no longer seems to be any real innovation in the market. Many of the most amazing games and ideas have come from Sega, or people talented enough to work Sega's hardware. Generally speaking, these efforts were rarely appreciated in their original incarnation. The latest incarnation in a game series the Smithsonian deems culturally significant, Virtua Fighter 5, has sold around one million copies, worldwide, in five years. It's competitor, if you could call it that, Tekken 6, sold three millions in five months.

The same was true of hardware. The Wii Mote is something Sega was teasing us with in the 90s; a new Dreamcast controller for Air NiGHTS. The Wii U is just a VMU with a decade of technology thrown on. Kinect is, of course, just a new Activator. I can enjoy 3D TV games on my MasterSystem. I can download games onto an XBOX, much like I could with a MegaDrive and a cable subscription. I would almost hazard to say that we haven't seen much innovation at all in terms of hardware since Sega left the market; simply better ways of giving us things more cheaply than Sega was giving us decades ago.

Sega is often ripped off by these lazy designers and junk programmers. Sega spent millions of dollars researching and developing ideas like the VMU or the Air NiGHT controller, or online platform gaming (and which directions that would take) or cell shading, or sandbox games, or voice recognition, or the watercolor look of Valkyrie of the Battlefield, or Shenmue's FREE system, or any other damn thing. They have every right to get indignant when companies like EA take an entire game and just slap a coat of Simpson's paint on it - and then that game sells as well, or better, than Sega's original product.

I have no idea if Level 5 is in the wrong. I don't think that was the point Joe was making, though I could be mistaken. I simply think its frustrating for an entire industry to laugh at your wild schemes, wait five years and have Sony or Nintendo or EA do the same thing and be called brilliant, and then be spat upon and called washed up. I think those are the sort of people - the lazy designers, the junk programmers, and the consumers who support them - that Joe called idiotic.

Offline Aki-at

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2012, 03:50:54 am »
Yes, those "idiot" gamers. How dare they stick up for Level-5 when the game was completed BEFORE the patent was given.

Game Completion: 2008
Patent: 2009

Level 5 has said they plan to fight back - it takes AGES to LOSE this bad.

The original patent was filed in 2004 according to some. Furthermore they have already made arcade football titles using this technology and had one released for the DS in the same time as the original IE.



Game looks remarkably like the patent outlined.

Yeah, the whole this is really embarrassing.  Of all the companies to pick a fight with, Level 5?!  Good natured, innovative, and well loved Level 5??  Im even more surprised by how everyone on the forum jumped on Sega's side with this one.  It's a ridiculous lawsuit and is going to end in Level 5's favor.  Talk about a PR disaster.

Why would it end up in Level 5's favour? SEGA forced Namco to remove buttons that light up in Tekken 2's training mode. As ridiculous as software patents are, SEGA has a very good history of always ending up on top in court cases when evidence is stacked against them; see Ulala's character design.

Offline CrazyT

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 07:33:22 am »
This thing is getting terrible publicity for SEGA. I do find it kind of strange. How does this make the relationship between SEGA and level 5? But not just that, how does this affect the company's respect in general? Is this stuff normal?

Cuz I would say the money isn't worth it if the company's respect goes down. I remember people loving and respecting SEGA. A lot of companies have worked together with SEGA and I felt like SEGA was really cool when it came to things like this.

This whole patent thing is ridiculous. As much as some wanna argue SEGA is right theoretically. Suing a company for such a minor thing, for so much money, sounds very greedy.

The general consensus everywhere else is that it is very low and that SEGA with their terrible games should back off from a company that is today known for very great things.

*sigh

Yes, those "idiot" gamers. How dare they stick up for Level-5 when the game was completed BEFORE the patent was given.

Game Completion: 2008
Patent: 2009

Level 5 has said they plan to fight back - it takes AGES to LOSE this bad.
Yo, is everything alright?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 07:42:59 am by CrazyTails »

Offline jonboy101

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2012, 07:50:47 am »
It isn't low. Sega patented a form of gameplay. Level 5 infringed. The recent quality of Sega's games has nothing to do with it. Perhaps Level 5 ought to be more creative.

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2012, 08:05:24 am »
I think it's high time to news this. I'll admit, I held off because i was thinking *cough* some OTHER writers might post something for once. Also, we didn't know all of the facts... and seemingly still don't.

Offline CrazyT

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2012, 08:06:15 am »
Not saying i'm agreeing with that general consensus jon, but it just sux that it is affecting SEGA's name in the wrong way. I mean even articles have a negative tone towards SEGA with this news.

Recently at destructoid for example Jim sterling doing his thing like he always does , and the highest voted comment is
Quote
First the Shining Force debacle and now this?!?!?! Sega, you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Why is it that everyone is interpreting this whole thing the wrong way?


Offline Nameless 24

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2012, 09:38:59 am »
SEGA is not poor.

They are certainly richer then me and you, but as a business, it's not exactly up there with Capcom or Konami these days....Level 5 and ATLUS is more of a realistic comparison.

Still....SEGA suing would either mean they have a legit reason to sue them or it's the classic "Big fish over little fish" scenario companies unfortunately take sometimes.

Either way, I am not going to be biased over SEGA on this one until we found out what's the whole business is about.

I actually hope that no one comes out of this affected. As much as I love SEGA, Level 5 are a very legit developer that we need in this day and age of Japanese games that appeal to everyone.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:41:52 am by Nameless 24 »
Big fan of Claymore, Miria in particular.

Currently playing Yakuza 0.

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2012, 10:31:14 am »
SEGA, as a business, on par with Level-5?

Quote
Level-5 Inc. (株式会社レベルファイブ Kabushiki-gaisha Reberu Faibu?) is an independent video game developer and publisher based in Fukuoka, Japan. The company, which currently employs about 200 individuals, was founded in October 1998 by Akihiro Hino after he departed from the now defunct Japanese developer Riverhillsoft. Hino designs, plans and produces all of Level-5’s games, as well as serving as both President and CEO of the company.

Doesn't sound comprable to SEGA to me. I'm sure Aki will roll in here with the numbers, but I'm certain SEGA is up there. Heck, they've gotta be bigger than Capcom and Konami. Looking at Revenue/Net Income cited on wikipedia:

SEGA Corp
Revenue    ¥396.7 billion (2011) US $4.9 billion
Net income    ¥41.5 billion (2011) US $512.857 million

Capcom
Revenue    ¥66.8 billion / US$728.1 million (2010)
Net income    ¥2.2 billion / US$23.6 million (2010)

Konami
Revenue    ¥265.758 billion (US$3.24 billion) (2012)
Operating income    ¥40.950 billion (US$401 million) (2012)
Net income    ¥23.012 billion (US$113 million) (2012)

Offline Aki-at

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2012, 11:17:59 am »
They are certainly richer then me and you, but as a business, it's not exactly up there with Capcom or Konami these days....Level 5 and ATLUS is more of a realistic comparison.

SEGA by themselves would be in a worse condition than either of those companies, yes. However they are part of the SEGA Sammy group and are much stronger than either company, they hold about $2 billion cash reserves vs $750 mil debt.

Offline ROJM

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2012, 11:29:39 am »
I'm not sure Joe is arguing that they're idiots for defending Level 5, per se (and I have been known to misread him before), but rather, that the industry is, in general, full of ungrateful idiots who get a good laugh at Sega's products and innovations - which then become industry standard half a decade later. I think he makes a legitimate point.

There is one really fantastic interview Yu gave back in the mid 90s, describing the dual processing design of the Saturn. He argued that only about one in one hundred programmers would be able to maximize the potential of Saturn's engines; that the Saturn is a much more capable machine than a Playstation in the right hands, but that most "junk" programmers would rather just use the Playstation programming libraries and be done with it.

This, to me, illustrates a very serious problem that existed in the industry in the 90s, and one that has only become worse in the last decade. Yu's junk programmers are becoming more common. There no longer seems to be any real innovation in the market. Many of the most amazing games and ideas have come from Sega, or people talented enough to work Sega's hardware. Generally speaking, these efforts were rarely appreciated in their original incarnation. The latest incarnation in a game series the Smithsonian deems culturally significant, Virtua Fighter 5, has sold around one million copies, worldwide, in five years. It's competitor, if you could call it that, Tekken 6, sold three millions in five months.

The same was true of hardware. The Wii Mote is something Sega was teasing us with in the 90s; a new Dreamcast controller for Air NiGHTS. The Wii U is just a VMU with a decade of technology thrown on. Kinect is, of course, just a new Activator. I can enjoy 3D TV games on my MasterSystem. I can download games onto an XBOX, much like I could with a MegaDrive and a cable subscription. I would almost hazard to say that we haven't seen much innovation at all in terms of hardware since Sega left the market; simply better ways of giving us things more cheaply than Sega was giving us decades ago.

Sega is often ripped off by these lazy designers and junk programmers. Sega spent millions of dollars researching and developing ideas like the VMU or the Air NiGHT controller, or online platform gaming (and which directions that would take) or cell shading, or sandbox games, or voice recognition, or the watercolor look of Valkyrie of the Battlefield, or Shenmue's FREE system, or any other damn thing. They have every right to get indignant when companies like EA take an entire game and just slap a coat of Simpson's paint on it - and then that game sells as well, or better, than Sega's original product.

I have no idea if Level 5 is in the wrong. I don't think that was the point Joe was making, though I could be mistaken. I simply think its frustrating for an entire industry to laugh at your wild schemes, wait five years and have Sony or Nintendo or EA do the same thing and be called brilliant, and then be spat upon and called washed up. I think those are the sort of people - the lazy designers, the junk programmers, and the consumers who support them - that Joe called idiotic.

And for that you get a Kudos from me. :)



The original patent was filed in 2004 according to some. Furthermore they have already made arcade football titles using this technology and had one released for the DS in the same time as the original IE.



Game looks remarkably like the patent outlined.

Why would it end up in Level 5's favour? SEGA forced Namco to remove buttons that light up in Tekken 2's training mode. As ridiculous as software patents are, SEGA has a very good history of always ending up on top in court cases when evidence is stacked against them; see Ulala's character design.

Sega's been using this touch tech for a very long time now, the most recent being BORDERBREAK and a few of their latest arcade titles but historically, Yu Suzuki's PSY PHI used this tech regardless that the game itself only made it to local testing, it still exists. Just because the patent was approved in 2009 really doesn't mean they weren't the first to use it. Usually a patent can take years to be approved. And that's down to investigating whether or not Sega was the first to use this type of tech, if they were then the patent becomes official. Obviously Sega passed that test or they wouldn't have gotten the patent to begin with.


And to the guy who's trying to be sarcastic with me, again i call them idiots. These people won't bother to do the research and find the truth that Sega has at least a strong case here. I call them idiots because they listen to biasied zealots running "nuetral" gaming websites who take every little oppurtunity to bash Sega at every turn. I call them idiots because these fools scorn a company responsible for the way our industry is.Ungrateful idiots who act like they're smart yet doesn't use the very technology that they use to voice their distaste against Sega  at the top of their bandwidth, to actually find out whether or not what these "nuetral" websites is telling the truth or not. Years ago in the era of print media you could forgive such ignorance but in the age of the internet where such information is partically a click away? No excuse. It wouldn't matter if Sega was in the right to these people. Their real problem is the fact that Sega is sueing the creators of a popular game and that's the real crime here. And that's the most idiotic thing of all. It doesn't matter if sega is getting a bad press from this, they always going to get a bad press regardless if they are guilty or not.because unfortunatly we still have game journos who think they are still living in the nineties and want to do their bit in getting one over on Sega for daring to challenge their all fave system Nintendo and to a lesser degree Sony.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:43:34 am by ROJM »

Offline jonboy101

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2012, 02:35:43 pm »
Not saying i'm agreeing with that general consensus jon, but it just sux that it is affecting SEGA's name in the wrong way. I mean even articles have a negative tone towards SEGA with this news.

Recently at destructoid for example Jim sterling doing his thing like he always does , and the highest voted comment is
Why is it that everyone is interpreting this whole thing the wrong way?

It would not matter how blatant the patent violation is or might be; Level 5 could pirate Shenmue and the media would let them get way with it because of who they are and who Sega is.

The real irony, of course, is the sudden perception of Sega as the big soulless corporation. Dragon on a pile of gold indeed. Poor washed up Sega, who everyone thought went broke ten years ago, is suddenly Goliath.

Offline jonboy101

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2012, 02:37:20 pm »
They are certainly richer then me and you, but as a business, it's not exactly up there with Capcom or Konami these days....Level 5 and ATLUS is more of a realistic comparison.

Still....SEGA suing would either mean they have a legit reason to sue them or it's the classic "Big fish over little fish" scenario companies unfortunately take sometimes.

Either way, I am not going to be biased over SEGA on this one until we found out what's the whole business is about.

I actually hope that no one comes out of this affected. As much as I love SEGA, Level 5 are a very legit developer that we need in this day and age of Japanese games that appeal to everyone.

Fairly sure Sega is the largest Japanese third party company.

Offline semmie

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Re: Sega sues Profesor Layton(actually Level 5)over patents
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2012, 08:53:04 am »
SEGA, as a business, on par with Level-5?

Doesn't sound comprable to SEGA to me. I'm sure Aki will roll in here with the numbers, but I'm certain SEGA is up there. Heck, they've gotta be bigger than Capcom and Konami. Looking at Revenue/Net Income cited on wikipedia:

SEGA Corp
Revenue    ¥396.7 billion (2011) US $4.9 billion
Net income    ¥41.5 billion (2011) US $512.857 million

Capcom
Revenue    ¥66.8 billion / US$728.1 million (2010)
Net income    ¥2.2 billion / US$23.6 million (2010)

Konami
Revenue    ¥265.758 billion (US$3.24 billion) (2012)
Operating income    ¥40.950 billion (US$401 million) (2012)
Net income    ¥23.012 billion (US$113 million) (2012)

plus 2

like i said. sega is mighty in the bizz. all the mofo,s here keep bashing that sega is poor. they could make stuff nobody can.

thx for the hyping up of my sincere optimism