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Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: pirovash88 on July 17, 2014, 01:38:44 am
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Not sure if you guys have heard yet, but Marvel just announced a few hours ago that the new Captain America will be black. The shield will be helmed by Sam Wilson aka the Falcon, Caps old sidekick.
To be honest I'm not happy about this at all. As a huge Cap fan, I don't see this as anything other than way to garner more sales..
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How did he just become black... (I dont read comics or care much for super heroes)
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How did he just become black... (I dont read comics or care much for super heroes)
That's why you have to buy the comic..they just announced he's become black..as far as i know the real cap got shot and killed some time ago and Bucky took over the mantle...
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How did he just become black... (I dont read comics or care much for super heroes)
Well, Sam Wilson's always been black... As for how he'll take on the Captain America name, that remains to be seen.
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How did he just become black... (I dont read comics or care much for super heroes)
Basically for whatever reason, The Falcon (you may recognize him from CapAm2: The Winter Soldier movie) is taking up the costume. Maybe Steve Rogers is taking a vacation.
It's different from the african american Spider-Man, which existed in a different timeline (Ultimate?) and I think this Cap is supposed to exist in 616, the "normal" timeline.
Introducing novelty and writing new interpretations of iconic figures seems essential to comic books, which is part of why I don't follow them. I don't find creating an african american Cap pandering or anything, I just don't like that things have to be constantly "freshened up"
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What happened was that Cap was stripped of his Super Soldier Serum that kept him in in shape and didn't allow him to age. After that happened, he was then transformed into an old man, so he can't wield the shield anymore, hence why Sam Wilson will now be the new Captain America.
I just see this as a cash grab and nothing else. Captain America, to me, is one of those characters that you just don't touch. I didn't much care for him when Bucky Barnes became Cap either. Rather than create new and compelling diverse characters they go on and make Thor a Woman and now Cap is Black.. I honestly think they just want to stir up controversy.
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It is going to be temporary and part of a upcoming arc. But the way that Marvel has been pulling this announcements its quite obvious why they only have 2 books on my pull list while I have 14 from DC Comics and 10 from Image comics.
The worse one is Lady Thor announced on the View. OK, Marvel, fuck off, my mom isn't going to buy Thor comics.
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What happened was that Cap was stripped of his Super Soldier Serum that kept him in in shape and didn't allow him to age. After that happened, he was then transformed into an old man, so he can't wield the shield anymore, hence why Sam Wilson will now be the new Captain America.
I just see this as a cash grab and nothing else. Captain America, to me, is one of those characters that you just don't touch. I didn't much care for him when Bucky Barnes became Cap either. Rather than create new and compelling diverse characters they go on and make Thor a Woman and now Cap is Black.. I honestly think they just want to stir up controversy.
So he's still alive then..does anybody stay dead in comics anymore..lol
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It is going to be temporary and part of a upcoming arc. But the way that Marvel has been pulling this announcements its quite obvious why they only have 2 books on my pull list while I have 14 from DC Comics and 10 from Image comics.
The worse one is Lady Thor announced on the View. OK, Marvel, fuck off, my mom isn't going to buy Thor comics.
I didn't know Marvel made that announcement on the View.. Wow, that is incredibly pathetic. What the fuck happened to this Company? I place blame on Disney.
Rojm - Cap died in 07 when he was shot and killed, but was reborn in 2010 i think. It was Ed Brubaker's Captain America Reborn run. Yeah, no one stays dead for very long in comics. Especially someone as iconic as Cap.
Joe Quesada needs to be fired, or something needs to shift within this Company because they clearly don't know wtf they're doing.
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Why is he whatever?
Well because Disney owns Marvel..........so everything they do from now on is affected by Disney.
Glee = HSmusical = Mickey Mouse club = Disney = Marvel K.O.ed??? = they are attempting to capture a wider audience.
Let me make this straight. Negros/Colored people/People of African decent/ do not have any other nation to withdraw from but the US. Everything that was, is, and will be, has been thrown on to the plates, backs, and image of the common Black American person.
RIGHT NOW AMERICA HAS AN EXTREMLY BAD IMAGE, DUE TO THE GENOCIDAL PROBLEMS SINCE 2001. The entire Orient does not like the US, Europe including Canada is not on their side. Even Mexico has an pact with Iran, if anything should go down or go wrong.
With the amass of internet "old wives tales" and manipulation of the market. Seeing a white person in most things ( especially nowadays ) is basically if we had Kaptain KX3 and the wonder ghosts. That is how people are feeling America's image right now.
It was so bad that an historical areas in the South South, was renamed. They even have people plotting to destroy beautiful statues, and war memorials as well. Speaking of destruction of property, the image of the US destroying a statue of the Iran leader is stupid. So stupid a Statue in former Russian states was torn down, and the SU decided to tear down an architectural feat in order to retort that destruction of property.
Also, and also the movie of Captain American that came out was renamed. The title of Captain America: The First Avenger was changed to The First Avenger, out of concern about anti-Americanism.
So your wondering why are we seeing characters we all know and love turn non-heterosexual, or non-European is because the appeal to world standards.
Also personally I feel safer with an negro president in office. Next European person who comes along will look like another Bush clone. It is the lesser to two evils. Sadly that is how some people are viewing the comics industry.
Again Disney = Marvel = beyond the term evil. What really bones is if they had restarted the series. However they are simply making the original Cap take a break. Speaking of which
Whatever happen to the futuristic Captain American II???
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Marvel began to fall apart before even Disney took control of them. The character assassination of both Gwen Stacy and Professor X was too much for me to take.
To me it's pretty sad how Marvel's countering of DC's genuinely superior storyline is giving character gender swaps/race changes. How about make a completely new character instead? Oh wait it's too risky and won't sell enough comic, not like a female Thor or black Captain America (At least the first few issues)
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How did they ass-pull Captain America coming back from the dead after being shot?
And yeah, stuff like this is why I don't bother with cape comics. I'll stick to East of West, Pretty Deadly and Auteur, thanks.
EDIT: Female Thor, this I don't really mind. Isn't the whole idea originally than ANYONE can be Thor if they are 'worthy'? If there's a woman out there who's noble and willing to be a warrior there's no reason she can't pick up the hammer and gain his powers. Hell, Thor was a horse-alien for a while I believe.
These will likely be all temporary runs anyway.
Aki-at: Don't tempt them by asking for new characters, usually that results in some writer coming along with a Marty Stu "this guy is new and he's so good I'm going to have him beat up FOUR OTHER ESTABLISHED characters at the SAME TIME. Everytime he's not on panel, everyone should be talking about how dangerous and cool he is!"
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Here is the thing I hate about the way Marvel is doing it. At least when they killed Captain America last time it was due to a fall out of a big event and was surprise. Civil War was huge. I know he isn't dead but that makes it worse. Its a blatant 'Swap for now' thing.
As for how 'Captain America' came back by being shot, it is explained in 'Captain America: Reborn' series.
"Rogers did not die, and that the gun Sharon Carter had been hypnotized to use had actually caused Rogers to phase in and out of space and time, appearing at events in his lifetime and fighting battles. The Skull returns Rogers to the present, where he takes control of Rogers' mind and body. Rogers eventually regains control, and with help from his allies, defeats the Skull in the fourth and final issues of this miniseries." - From wiki
Reminds me of how they brought back Batman after Final Crisis (which they shouldn't have since New 52 was a few years away)
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Hell, Thor was a horse-alien for a while I believe.
Different character who was worthy of holding Mjolnir before:
http://marvel.wikia.com/Beta_Ray_Bill_(Earth-616 (http://marvel.wikia.com/Beta_Ray_Bill_(Earth-616))
How about make a completely new character instead?
You mean like: http://marvel.wikia.com/Miles_Morales_(Earth-1610)
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Again, Miles Morales actually had a good 'event' leading up to him taking on the mantel of Spider-man and was in the Ultimate universe.. Peter Parker's death in Ultimate was really sad and the series was canceled without bringing Peter back (in the Ultimate world). Peter actually died, while Captain America and Thor both got throw away stories and gave the mantle to someone else. Captain America and Thor aren't dead. Thor was rejected by his hammer and it accepted someone else. Captain America is unable to use his shield but will be commanding the new Captain America.
So, its not like that at all.
Honestly the only hero to actually get his 'mantel' taken was The Flash, Wally took over the Flash after Barry died for 25 fucking years.
Honestly this is just Marvel trying to reach out to minorities and diversify their books, but instead of giving a black hero his own ongoing, they will site back and give minorities the name of a big selling hero. I guess minorities aren't worth making a new hero?
1. Captain America - White
2. Iron Man - White
3. Bruce Banner - White (he is)
4. Spiderman/Peter Parker - White
5. Wolverine - white
6. Fantastic Four - all white
7. Dareddevil - White
8. Punisher - White
9. Deadpool - white
The issue here is that Iron Man and Thor used to be C class heroes, no one cared about them. Marvel invested enough money and time to make them work for an audience. Why doesn't Marvel just make a movie about a new female hero, with a nice new origins that might actually relate to females? Why don't they make a black superior that black people would be proud of? DC Comics has done it, sure they have the same issues as marvel at times, but they are going overboard now.
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You know i wonder if this has anything to do with the Jack Kirby case that's coming up in the supreme courts? Marvel is in danger of losing their copyrights to many of those characters he helped co created because the family is suing Marvel but they may not have to pay them that much if they lose the case if they change the characters enough that it doesn't resemble the original concept from lee or kirby...
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As for how 'Captain America' came back by being shot, it is explained in 'Captain America: Reborn' series.
"Rogers did not die, and that the gun Sharon Carter had been hypnotized to use had actually caused Rogers to phase in and out of space and time, appearing at events in his lifetime and fighting battles. The Skull returns Rogers to the present, where he takes control of Rogers' mind and body. Rogers eventually regains control, and with help from his allies, defeats the Skull in the fourth and final issues of this miniseries." - From wiki
Reminds me of how they brought back Batman after Final Crisis (which they shouldn't have since New 52 was a few years away)
This is why I always clarify that I don't read capeshit when I tell people I read comics. 99.99999% of it seems to be varying degrees of garbage.
A lot of non cape stuff is also garbage, but it seems less widespread.
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This is why I always clarify that I don't read capeshit when I tell people I read comics. 99.99999% of it seems to be varying degrees of garbage.
A lot of non cape stuff is also garbage, but it seems less widespread.
Been reading Zero, Revival, Saga, The Wicked + The Divine, Sex Criminals have all knocked it out of the park. Zero is getting a TV show soon, so I guess I'll hear from people how big comic book fans they are cuz its a popular television series. (Oh, I love comics. I watch the walking dead etc)
Right now DC Comics has some pretty good series Snyder is killing it on Batman, Lemire really rebooted Green Arrow, Justice League is pretty awesome and liked the Forever Evil event, Marvel's Hawkeye is actually well done, Swamp thing is always ace.
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I used to be a huge comic collector and reader, but I pretty much stopped after I got married about 3 years ago. The only comic I stay consistent with is Captain America, but I may stop now that Sam Wilson is taking over. Some of my favorites are All star superman, superman red son, ultimates vol 1 & 2. Y the last man, walking dead, etc
I used to keep up with DC as well, but stopped after Geoff johns took over. Darkest night was okay, but I didn't care about all of the rebirths like aquaman and flash
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Bu......t Geoff Jones did a excellent Vibe/Aquaman run. Vibe was so good, :(
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I'll admit I have no idea who Vibe is..
I don't mind Geoff Johns, but I feel like he's way too involved with everything DC. I might give his aquaman series another go, although I was extremely jealous of him bringing em back.
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Vibe is basically Spiderman hero in the DCU, gets recruited in the New 52 to join JLA a anti-JL task force and his power was suppose to slow down Flash. But he thought he was going to be a hero, Spiderman type humor between him and his brother.
http://dcinfinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/justice-league-of-america-new-52-2-hawkman-vibe.jpg
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Ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha..................Meaning Jacks family sues Dinsey which owns Marvel.
They're suing Marvel not Disney...Their beef has always been with Marvel. I hope they win myself...
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Disney owns Marvel now. When you own something, you have a degree of control. Disney owns Lucusfilms and canned their subsidiary LFGames. Konami owned HudsonSoft look at them now.
Jacks family is probably doing this, because they know that Disney have the money, and they can win. Which lawyers you think are doing the talking now?
Everybody seems to blame image comics for the downfall of Marvel. Isn't image made up of X Marvel employees.
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Vibe is basically Spiderman hero in the DCU, gets recruited in the New 52 to join JLA a anti-JL task force and his power was suppose to slow down Flash. But he thought he was going to be a hero, Spiderman type humor between him and his brother.
http://dcinfinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/justice-league-of-america-new-52-2-hawkman-vibe.jpg
Strange that i've never heard of the guy, then again i was always more of a Marvel fan. Although, i will say that DC tends to pick-up some of the better stuff.
What was the deal with the new 52? Were they just 52 new comics series?
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Been reading Zero, Revival, Saga, The Wicked + The Divine, Sex Criminals have all knocked it out of the park. Zero is getting a TV show soon, so I guess I'll hear from people how big comic book fans they are cuz its a popular television series. (Oh, I love comics. I watch the walking dead etc)
Right now DC Comics has some pretty good series Snyder is killing it on Batman, Lemire really rebooted Green Arrow, Justice League is pretty awesome and liked the Forever Evil event, Marvel's Hawkeye is actually well done, Swamp thing is always ace.
I've been reading a whole lot of comics recently, but my favourites are
Pretty Deadly (where the hell is #6?)
East of West
Caliban
Auteur
Followed by Manifest Destiny, The Witcher (Surprisingly decent), Southern Bastards and a few others. Punisher is actually up there as well sometimes I have to say. I loved the concept of Ten Grand, but that series went downhill very fucking fast.
I have Saga Vol 1 from the Humble Bundle a while back, but haven't had a chance to read it yet.
As for Snyder, I thought most people didn't like Death of the Family at least. Maybe it was just /co/, but from what I read I thought it was a bit 2edgy4me.
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Disney owns Marvel now. When you own something, you have a degree of control. Disney owns Lucusfilms and canned their subsidiary LFGames. Konami owned HudsonSoft look at them now.
Jacks family is probably doing this, because they know that Disney have the money, and they can win. Which lawyers you think are doing the talking now?
Everybody seems to blame image comics for the downfall of Marvel. Isn't image made up of X Marvel employees.
Wrong. Kirby and his family have been in this battle for Marvel for years. Now what's happened is that the Supreme Court will hear the case..if the Kirbys win it could change or have a profound affect on copyright laws as they currently stand. It has nothing to do with Disney directly. I suggest you research the subject that you are talking about before you come with genralisations.
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Mademan: I have also been waiting for Pretty Deadly #6. Glad not the only one picking it up. Death of the Family was good, I think Snyder's stories have been good. The only issue is shitty tie-ins that he is against and everyone thought someone was going to die in that arc. He said in a podcast that "The Joker's joke was that everyone was looking for a death in my book, but Batman Inc is the one with the death. Joke's on you" or something like that. He said his story was about the relationship with the Batfamily. Also he has stated that he doesn't like big cross over stories but is sorta forced by DC on that stuff. More $$$ with tie-ins. I suggest reading his Court of Owls and Zero Year.
Strange that i've never heard of the guy, then again i was always more of a Marvel fan. Although, i will say that DC tends to pick-up some of the better stuff.
What was the deal with the new 52? Were they just 52 new comics series?
New 52 is a brand new 'universe' of sorts. Basically its a new world with new remakes of some characters. Batman is basically the same but now he is younger and from the start he has only been batman for 5 years.
The idea is that they have 52 comics a month, but its like at 46 or something due to cancellations. But they will get around to announcing new titles.
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Jack Kirby's being brought up in here, meanwhile Marvel's next big movie is featuring at least two of his characters (Groot and Ronan the Accuser)
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Mademan: I have also been waiting for Pretty Deadly #6. Glad not the only one picking it up. Death of the Family was good, I think Snyder's stories have been good. The only issue is shitty tie-ins that he is against and everyone thought someone was going to die in that arc. He said in a podcast that "The Joker's joke was that everyone was looking for a death in my book, but Batman Inc is the one with the death. Joke's on you" or something like that. He said his story was about the relationship with the Batfamily. Also he has stated that he doesn't like big cross over stories but is sorta forced by DC on that stuff. More $$$ with tie-ins. I suggest reading his Court of Owls and Zero Year. New 52 is a brand new 'universe' of sorts. Basically its a new world with new remakes of some characters. Batman is basically the same but now he is younger and from the start he has only been batman for 5 years.
The idea is that they have 52 comics a month, but its like at 46 or something due to cancellations. But they will get around to announcing new titles.
Hmm.. Well that's strange. I'm surprised they didn't make race or sex changes on some of their characters just like Marvel. I might have to look into some more of DC's comics. Recommend any new 52 issues?
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Batman: Scott Snyder has basically turned into DC's playboy of comic book writing and honestly his Batman series so far has been great. He started on issue one and is still going strong.
http://whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/court.jpg (http://whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/court.jpg)
Justice League: Geoff Johns started this run and people hated it at first due to changing up the characters and making them fit the new time frame. Its a new Universe and thats nothing to cry about. Justice League: War is loosely based on the New 52 Justice League. The Shazam back ups are really well done.
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Black-Adam-vs-Shazam-DC-Comics-New-52.jpg (http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Black-Adam-vs-Shazam-DC-Comics-New-52.jpg)
Forever Evil cross over event: The Justice league are dead, the world is ours. This is a good 8 issue mini event. 'Trinity War' tied into it but its not even worth reading cuz it was shitty. Justice League, Justice League of America and Justice League Dark all have tie ins that are background stories of other Leaguers during the events. Not needed to fully enjoy the Forever Evil story.
Aquaman: Geoff Johns at it again relaunching Aquaman and writer the first 19 issues (then coming back for #23-25). The cross over event between Aquaman and Justice league is actually being turned into a animated movie, called "Throne of Atlantis". In this story Aquaman tries to balance out being an Atlantian and saving humans that find him to be a joke.
http://realotakugamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/aquaman_no_ones_hero.jpg (http://realotakugamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/aquaman_no_ones_hero.jpg)
http://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/war.jpg (http://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/war.jpg)
Animal Man: One of the titles that took me by surprise in the new 52, I never read Grant Morrison's old run and honestly this changes so much that it doesn't matter. Some very graphic art, great story telling about a real family man stuck in a impossible situation. The series just ended a few months ago, worth picking up every issue and its cross over with...
http://geek-news.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/06/animal-man-v2-1-kids.jpg (http://geek-news.mtv.com//wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/06/animal-man-v2-1-kids.jpg)
http://www.essentialwebcomics.com/showcase/images/stories/Members/mrgasparilla/dcnu-animalman-dream-large.jpg (http://www.essentialwebcomics.com/showcase/images/stories/Members/mrgasparilla/dcnu-animalman-dream-large.jpg)
Swamp Thing: who has a cross over with Animal Man in Rot world. Snyder (Batman dude) rebooted it and so far every issue is great in its own way. Even after changing teams, its hard to find terrible Swamp Thing issues, just one of those characters that gets treated really well. Love the art:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_zmUw70VnU/T3TbCc8RsYI/AAAAAAAAHO4/K6HSHREwJcA/s1600/swamp-thing-7.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_zmUw70VnU/T3TbCc8RsYI/AAAAAAAAHO4/K6HSHREwJcA/s1600/swamp-thing-7.jpg)
Earth 2: Taking characters that you know but putting them in a new earth where rules do not apply. Batman, Superman and Wonder woman die fighting a threat and the world hasn't had a new 'wonder' (what they call them in Earth 2), so you get to see new origins to powers and old characters take up new powers... its pretty interesting book. One of those "Its better as it goes along" books for sure.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120610162410/marvel_dc/images/7/7a/Jay_Garrick_Earth-2_001.jpg (http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120610162410/marvel_dc/images/7/7a/Jay_Garrick_Earth-2_001.jpg)
Green Arrow: My favorite comic book hero, so of course he had to be added. Though I suggest starting off at issue #17 because the first 16 issues are horse shit (no character progression, just trash shit). Jeff Lemire took over on issue 17 and really waved a mythology around the character. Sadly DC comics just announced the 'Arrow' TV writers are taking over. Hopefully its good.
http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/4238/46/original/595.jpg (http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/4238/46/original/595.jpg)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bUlRl7R-m9s/UsMV7YAIx3I/AAAAAAAABV4/prd4dQQS3k8/s1600/Green+Arrow+Lemire.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bUlRl7R-m9s/UsMV7YAIx3I/AAAAAAAABV4/prd4dQQS3k8/s1600/Green+Arrow+Lemire.jpg)
Future's End: This is a new series that just started. A weekly series that takes place 5 years into the future of the current New 52 universe, with a time traveling Batman Beyond, Grifter killing aliens and a fallout of a death of a hero.
http://i2.wp.com/www.comicbooktherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/futures-end-657x1000.jpg?resize=368%2C560 (http://i2.wp.com/www.comicbooktherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/futures-end-657x1000.jpg?resize=368%2C560)
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Jack Kirby's being brought up in here, meanwhile Marvel's next big movie is featuring at least two of his characters (Groot and Ronan the Accuser)
Actually three...The Celestials which is DEFINATLY a Kirby concept and not a co creation is in the new movie in one form...
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George, i think i may start to read a bit more DC. I give, i'll give Aquaman another chance, gotta give Johns credit on playing with the "no one likes Aquaman" story, pretty unique. Animal Man looks pretty cool too, so i'll give those two a shot first, if i like em, i may pick up other issues.
I actually used to read a bit of Swamp Thing, old school stuff though. I think it was Alan Moore's work, pretty intense stuff.
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Cool, you read trades or single issues?
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Both really. Sort of depends, I'll pick up single issues of series that I really love, like captain america, but I'll buy trades of spider-man and other series. I rarely buy single issues of DC comics though.
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Trades are cool, take up less room and cost less. I really only do single issues tho, I just like that medium best. But yeah, the DC trades are cheap but take like months after a story finishes to be picked up by trades.
Image is way better at it, they do it right after the arc.
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Anyway who need's a female Thor when you got Wonder Woman...(http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Wonder-Woman-Costume-Batman-V-Superman1-683x1024.jpg)
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Trades are cool, take up less room and cost less. I really only do single issues tho, I just like that medium best. But yeah, the DC trades are cheap but take like months after a story finishes to be picked up by trades.
Image is way better at it, they do it right after the arc.
Since i've pretty much fall behind with DC, i'll probably end up buying trades. The last time i read DC issues was around Darkest Night, i was super into Green Lantern's Series for a while.
Must be super expensive picking up single issues all the time, no? The Marvel ones i pick up are $3.99 an issue, pretty pricey after a while.
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Alright, so I've given Aquaman another shot and... It's good, I admit it, it's good shit. I'm on issue 18? I think. Really enjoyed the beginning with black manta and the others. Quite interesting to see that intense side of Aquaman.
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Trade paperback/hardcover are for people who want to read the books but do not want to damage the actually comic itself.
Comics can come in the form books as well, instead of magazines.
4.95 is the current market-rate along with 1.00 ( which was back in 1991 ). Before that in the 1970's it was 75c.
You should also adjust the price of your purchasing power to that as well.
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Most books, outside of top sellers are 2.99 with Batman, Superman, Justice League hitting 3.99.
Alright, so I've given Aquaman another shot and... It's good, I admit it, it's good shit. I'm on issue 18? I think. Really enjoyed the beginning with black manta and the others. Quite interesting to see that intense side of Aquaman.
Yeah, its like "holy shit, this motherfucker is a badass" and they are doing a DC animated movie of Thrones of Atlantis.
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Most books, outside of top sellers are 2.99 with Batman, Superman, Justice League hitting 3.99. Yeah, its like "holy shit, this motherfucker is a badass" and they are doing a DC animated movie of Thrones of Atlantis.
I'm actually on the Throne of Atlantis run and it's really good. Gotta hand it to Johns for making a good Aquaman run, didn't think it was possible. No doubt we'll be seeing him in a film soon enough.