SEGAbits Forums

Off Topic => Everything Else => Topic started by: pcm92 on July 20, 2013, 11:11:48 am

Title: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on July 20, 2013, 11:11:48 am
Why do you think it is dying? Does it stand a chance of coming back?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: inthesky on July 20, 2013, 02:29:48 pm
It isn't "dying." Yes, most of population polled (especially evident in the younger generations) have no religious affiliation, but it isn't dying by any means. Organized religion, especially Christianity and its variants, continues to have relevance as a community focal point and often informs political dialogues and personal beliefs.

See this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/08/nones-protestant-religion-pew/1618445/

Fairly small sample size for what we're talking about but it's still relevant. Study was conducted by Pew, which is a not totally bogus research group

For what it's worth, I identify as atheist
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: 3raser on July 20, 2013, 05:37:44 pm
It's the same in the U.K. It's probably because of the media. I am not going to discuss my religious beliefs with anyone on this website though.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 20, 2013, 06:19:32 pm
I think the topic should have a question mark in itself. I don't think it's dying by any means, but like 3raser mentioned, social networking and media perception sometimes distorts and in many cases isolates people from most current events.

It's the same US that drew massive crowds when Pope Benedict toured the country.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Happy Cat on July 20, 2013, 06:44:23 pm
New generations of people just aren't as interested in religion it seems. Can't blame them really, I'm not really interested in it myself at all. Of course it depends on the country you are in, but for free countries such as USA, Europe, and Canada for example, it seems religion is starting to take a back seat. Of course it can be deeper then country, depending what state you are on in the US could have a huge impact too.

Also, it doesn't help that all the popular Christians right now are nutcases that want to ban personal freedoms just because it's against their religion. It's stuff like that which is making the new generations not very interested in religion.

It's the same reason republicans are losing popularity in the US, they are seen as rich religious nutcases who hate gays, women, and poor people by the younger generation :P
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 20, 2013, 07:24:17 pm
And that's mostly because misinformation, lack of moral judgement and the unwilingness to crawl out of the bubble abound in the younger generation. Not to mention, the perpetual worship of false idols.

The odd thing is that supossed secular, foward thinking establishements are becoming a cesspoll of mysoginy, racism and anti-critical thinking...
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on July 20, 2013, 07:48:29 pm
Its because the church is full of misinformation and most of the scripture its based on is false. That is why no one believes in it. The same reason no one believes in Zeus, Odin and other false Gods.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 20, 2013, 08:19:55 pm
You might want to look up the differences between polytheism and monotheism, though secularism seems to be a more radical variant of polytheism/paganism.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: inthesky on July 21, 2013, 02:27:56 am
And that's mostly because misinformation, lack of moral judgement and the unwilingness to crawl out of the bubble abound in the younger generation. Not to mention, the perpetual worship of false idols.

The odd thing is that supossed secular, foward thinking establishements are becoming a cesspoll of mysoginy, racism and anti-critical thinking...


I don't know what you're getting at with the bolded. Exposure to/tolerance of religion I don't think necessarily has anything to do with openness to experiences.

As for your second part, well, if you're talking about evolutionary psychology (a branch of psychology with repeated supporting of heteronormativity, general inability to address LGBT issues) or other cultural legacies (Confucianism has misogynistic tenets, like "no woman is suppose to occupy a position higher than a man in a post" or that woman are born with filial debt) sure.

But it's no accident that the Abrahamic religions have strong affect with movement conservatism and conservative values in general. Sure, you can be a feminist and a Christian but you probably don't believe in Christianity for its progressive values. There are misogynistic undercurrents in the Bible (Abraham had concubines, and that's just for starters!) Some followers of Islam are no slouch for regressive values either.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551932

Jarring graphics. Huge percentages of people who find homosexuality, suicide, abortion, euthanasia, alcohol consumption, and sex outside of with the wedded spouse abhorrent. Lots of people who want Sharia Law to be the official law of their country Though incidentally, the people surveyed are also sharply critical of acts of extremism and consider basic economic problems such as unemployement to be highly pressing issues. Also a Pew study, and it's 38k worldwide survey

Other things about the bible notwithstanding, like the Genesis story being bogus and other such magic as turning water into wine, multiplying food, turning people into salt, raining burning sulfur, etc.

The "Moral Majority" doesn't have sway right now. It's not relevant within mainstream conservative discourse (I think mainstream lots of things suck but whatever) because currently the conservative memes with positive affect are liberty and protection from government intrusion. A not totally congruent stance for people who want Roe V. Wade overturned. But there is an ebb and flow; neoconservatism in the US isn't dead, and social conservatives are a huge voting base for Republicans so they'll never go away.

Also, the notion that secularism is "radical" outside of a purely academic discussion is bizarre. Religion has little place in informing the policy, values, and law for a constantly changing society, unless religions change with it. This is why I support not making LGBT issues a civil/voting issue, because people who don't want to recognize equal standing for non-heteronormative people shouldn't be allowed to have a say. If historically Abrahamic religious fundamentalism hasn't been totally supportive of things like homosexuality but there's really nothing wrong with it, well then the natural consequence is that humans can create their morality without information by religion.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 21, 2013, 04:53:20 am
Morality never changed over the ages. There is a notion of right and wrong, regardless of the times we live in. Unfortunately, in these ever changing society, the younger generation doesn't understand that "new" is an ephemeral concept and changing the laws and the way society functions based on whatever the new fashion trend is, reduces our laws and way of life to something akin to a new pair of shoes or earings.

Sure, humans can create their own moral rules, but since there is no authority to verify or validate, morals can simply a matter of personal taste and vary greatly from one person to another. This is not moralty, it is pure and simple relativisim.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: CrazyT on July 21, 2013, 07:42:02 am
Having faith is one thing, but truly believing(because either makes sense or is/the majority is provable) is another thing. I think the latter would(if it's true) seem like a pretty reasonable explanation. The educated/rational won't just follow anything with blind faith is what I think. If there is a being or a higher power a person would have to invest his life into, there's ought to be something convincing to make it worth investing that much or drastically change a person's way of life. Whether or not something is or isn't convincing is another topic tho

The upbringing has become a lot less strict and more freely. So that also adds up to the above
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Aki-at on July 21, 2013, 08:29:21 am
Most people do not want restrictions imposed on their life, they question the thing that does impose those restrictions and opt out of following that code either through disagreements with the particular person/ideal or lack of belief.

People do it with their parents, with their governments, with their culture. Religion really is no different.

Some Muslim/Moslem practitioners are no slouch for regressive values either.

It's Muslim, with a strong "s" sound.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: inthesky on July 21, 2013, 01:17:18 pm
@Aki-at

sorry, thank you for the correction.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on July 22, 2013, 05:55:39 am
It's the same in the U.K. It's probably because of the media. I am not going to discuss my religious beliefs with anyone on this website though.

That's because there are more Muslims in the country now. :P
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 22, 2013, 08:19:18 am
England has a massive Pakistani community so it's hardly surprising.

In the case of Portugal and Spain, we have an Islamic community mostly for historical reasons, I mean most of Portugal and areas of Spain had been occupied historically by Islamists, but they did leave their mark.

The Corbova Mosque in Córvoda, Spain is one of the most beautiful mosques in all of the Iberian Peninsula.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on July 22, 2013, 05:38:43 pm
I'm not discussing my religious views on this thread, because these topics always end in fruitless discussion. Just remember not to disrespect others when talking about your own personal beliefs.

George, don't say things like "most of the scripture its based on is false". It borders trolling for replies, because for many people the scripture is true.

I personally do not believe that education is the reason for the religious decline. I study Physics and the more some study the more they believe in god, while others is the exact opposite. People will use what they learn to convince themselves their choices in life are the right ones, those choices not necessarely come from education.

Interestedly enough, the bible predicts there will be a time very near the end when religion as a whole will cease to exist. So in all irony, the decline of religion is actually playing the part of fulfilling one of the bible's prophecies.

People are simply abandoning the concept of a god who sees and judges everyone's actions so they can live their lifes the way the choose to without a guilty conscience. Coincidentally, morality is down the drain, religious people or not.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on July 22, 2013, 10:13:31 pm
Its hard to swallow scripture that is thousands of years old and most of it has been proven to be false (Earth being the center of the universe etc). I think religion is great, I love it myself. I study many religions and have read many texts. I like the culture, but I'm frankly very surprised that our generation believes any of it.

Not that its 'negative' or 'less intelligent' to follow a religion, I have many religious friends and I'm 100% OK with them believing in a higher power. Its just that the Quran and Bible and other 'religious' texts screams so much of the time period that it would be ignorant to not to (at least) suspect that its not the ACTUAL word of God. I mean, passages of 'angels coming down with shields and swords' and all that nonsense? Earthquakes being said that 'God did it' for people's sins? Sounds like the republicans blaming hurricanes on homosexuals, even though we know how hurricanes happen.

I think its great for culture, but to live by now-a-days is a bit weird IMO.

This is not even getting into the topic about the fact that the Bible 'aka word of God' has been changed so many times throughout history and much of what we talk about has been added (like 'Hell' and 'damnation' has been greatly over-saturated by word of mouth compared to whats actually in the bible)
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on July 23, 2013, 05:22:15 am
Well, I don't remember the Bible saying that the Earth is the center of the Universe.. I do know it states that the Earth is round and is suspended without anything holding it (both of these ideas were on the bible centuries before science could actually prove them)

As you can probably tell, I do believe in the Bible. And maybe you'll be surprised but I agree with you: so much as been added to it that it's hard to understand and believe in such teachings.
As you probably know, the Catholic Church has been incorporating pagan teachings on the "word of god" since the third century. That means that the hugest "christian" religion is a complete clusterfuck of teachings (Jesus is god, came down to earth and prayed to himself, how does this even make sense)

But, by studying what the bible truly says you'll find that it has a lot going for it: fulfilled prophecies, historical and scientific accuracy, and powerful advice to have a peaceful lifestyle.

In the context of most religions, I can see why people don't take it seriously. And I respect that
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on July 23, 2013, 09:14:49 am
You know what's dying faster than Religion? Pandas...
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on July 23, 2013, 05:51:05 pm
For real? Pandas are dying? Why?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 23, 2013, 07:57:29 pm
Because God hates pandas.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Emmett The Crab on July 24, 2013, 03:10:31 am
At the council of Nycea they actually voted on what books would go into the Bible and what would be left out, and more than that, they voted on whether Jesus was a god or a prophet. 
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Aki-at on July 24, 2013, 06:05:58 am
For real? Pandas are dying? Why?

They have a rather hard time trying to impregnant each other.

It's a miracle they even exist in the first place!
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on July 24, 2013, 06:26:35 am
They have a rather hard time trying to impregnant each other.

It's a miracle they even exist in the first place!

Some say Noah saved the population by bringing 6 Pandas despite God's rule of "2" of every animal. lol

Of course I'm kidding there, but Aki's right...Panda's can't be bothered to "do" it. They have a small window to become Pregnant I believe (36 hours I believe). Plus they're slow as hell, so trying to court one into sex is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: CrazyT on July 24, 2013, 07:14:06 am
Well, I don't remember the Bible saying that the Earth is the center of the Universe.. I do know it states that the Earth is round and is suspended without anything holding it (both of these ideas were on the bible centuries before science could actually prove them)

As you can probably tell, I do believe in the Bible. And maybe you'll be surprised but I agree with you: so much as been added to it that it's hard to understand and believe in such teachings.
As you probably know, the Catholic Church has been incorporating pagan teachings on the "word of god" since the third century. That means that the hugest "christian" religion is a complete clusterfuck of teachings (Jesus is god, came down to earth and prayed to himself, how does this even make sense)

But, by studying what the bible truly says you'll find that it has a lot going for it: fulfilled prophecies, historical and scientific accuracy, and powerful advice to have a peaceful lifestyle.

In the context of most religions, I can see why people don't take it seriously. And I respect that
You know. I like to be totally objective during subjects like these. But I agree with you here. As a Muslim(s) we believe in the original scriptures, being it the tora or the original message of jesus(bible) as well. And see them as legitimate messages from the prophets and god. It's funny how very similar both religions(christianity and islam) become when this key difference dissapears.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on July 30, 2013, 01:19:22 pm
You know. I like to be totally objective during subjects like these. But I agree with you here. As a Muslim(s) we believe in the original scriptures, being it the tora or the original message of jesus(bible) as well. And see them as legitimate messages from the prophets and god. It's funny how very similar both religions(christianity and islam) become when this key difference dissapears.

I have not noticed much difference from Islamic people and Jewish people. I mean, they both believe in Jesus, they just both don't believe He was the Messiah. They both believe in the same God. Do they not have the exact same belief?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on July 30, 2013, 10:32:37 pm
Its hard to swallow scripture that is thousands of years old and most of it has been proven to be false (Earth being the center of the universe etc). I think religion is great, I love it myself. I study many religions and have read many texts. I like the culture, but I'm frankly very surprised that our generation believes any of it.

Actually, the earth being "the center of the universe" was a scientific observation not necessarily rooted in the Bible. It was called geocentric theory, and had been around since ancient Greece.

I have not noticed much difference from Islamic people and Jewish people. I mean, they both believe in Jesus, they just both don't believe He was the Messiah. They both believe in the same God. Do they not have the exact same belief?

Jews believe Jesus and Muhummad were mere prophets. The New Testament and the Quran are not "canon" to our religious scripture. Though they all technically believe in the same monotheistic God, they scripture surround him is very different depending on the religion. So they most certainly do not have the exact same belief.

That being said, even Orthodox jews like my cousin Stevey say that we are not meant to take the Torah (or the Old Testament) literally.

Anyway, since when is Christianity "dying"? Still seems pretty healthy to me. Maybe doesn't rule the entire country like it used to, but its not dying.

Morality never changed over the ages. There is a notion of right and wrong, regardless of the times we live in. Unfortunately, in these ever changing society, the younger generation doesn't understand that "new" is an ephemeral concept and changing the laws and the way society functions based on whatever the new fashion trend is, reduces our laws and way of life to something akin to a new pair of shoes or earings.

Sure, humans can create their own moral rules, but since there is no authority to verify or validate, morals can simply a matter of personal taste and vary greatly from one person to another. This is not moralty, it is pure and simple relativisim.

Alright, let me get this straight before I say anything else: are you saying that morality is unchanging, and doesn't evolve and change with society? Are you saying that morality is a constant, unchanging thing? Or am I misreading?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 31, 2013, 02:34:28 am
No, I don't think you are misreading what I am saying.

And to steer the converstation to that point, answer me this:

Was there any there period in either ancient times (Babilonian) or pre-19th century era in which murder was perceived as being considered anything but "wrong"? Or theft?

Was there any society that regarded infedelity as normal or an acceptable standard of behaviour and conduct?

Is there any society that regarded the act of lying as honorable and proper?

Did the concept of greed change over time? Was greed regarded as good in Greek society (for example), but regarded as bad in medieval times?

Where there any period of time in which prejudice was regarded as a positive and acceptable standard of behaviour?

Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on July 31, 2013, 04:55:25 am
When it comes to it. Morality was technically invented by us when we evolved. Animals have no morality, but they have no guilt or malice either...they attack, they kill, they feed, all just to survive and breed.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on July 31, 2013, 06:01:20 am
True, but there are two pertinent observations to be made:
-Animals kill, breed and eat without any restraint nor they question their own nature;
-I do understand that morality might come from somewhere, but unlike other issues, morality is the least likely to be subjectively redefined and trivialized;

It's origin is also the hardest philoshophical enquiry, sure we could explain it all but when it comes to the whys, we either end up repeating ourselves to the point of abstraction or not really going much farther.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on July 31, 2013, 12:07:24 pm
When it comes to it. Morality was technically invented by us when we evolved. Animals have no morality, but they have no guilt or malice either...they attack, they kill, they feed, all just to survive and breed.

Pigs have closer DNA to us than primates or fish. We still could not have evolved from any animal because of two questions.

1. Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?
2. Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?

I'm not trying to make you believe in anything else. Your belief is your preference. It's just that I don't know what would answer those questions.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 31, 2013, 01:25:27 pm
Pigs have closer DNA to us than primates or fish. We still could not have evolved from any animal because of two questions.

1. Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?
2. Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?

I'm not trying to make you believe in anything else. Your belief is your preference. It's just that I don't know what would answer those questions.

It is very easy to get answers to these questions. Just do a little research. Here is what five minutes of research found:

The pig statistic is misleading. Give this a read: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/05/03/2887206.htm

Quote
"If we compare really closely related species, like a human and chimpanzee, we can still see the similarity between these rapidly changing sequences. If you move further away to the more distantly related pig, so many changes in the DNA will have occurred that it is no longer possible to recognise that the sequences were ever similar.

"Depending upon what it is that you are comparing you can say 'Yes, there's a very high degree of similarity, for example between a human and a pig protein coding sequence', but if you compare rapidly evolving non-coding sequences from a similar location in the genome, you may not be able to recognise any similarity at all. This means that blanket comparisons of all DNA sequences between species are not very meaningful."

As for the apes question:

Quote
If humans evolved from apes then why are there still apes?   

Humans did not evolve from present-day apes. Rather, humans and apes share a common ancestor that gave rise to both. This common ancestor, although not identical to modern apes, was almost certainly more apelike than humanlike in appearance and behavior. At some point -- scientists estimate that between 5 and 8 million years ago -- this species diverged into two distinct lineages, one of which were the hominids, or humanlike species, and the other ultimately evolved into the African great ape species living today.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html

---

Creationism is bullshit. While it can be said that it is a theory, just as evolution is a theory, difference is evolution can back information up with science. Not everything related to evolution can be explained, but that is the whole reason scientific study exists. To constantly discover and expand on ideas.

I have yet to hear any convincing evidence for creationism. Mainly all I hear is elaborate theories with little basis in reality, often ignoring those who refute and debunk it. Then creationists throw out this simplistic questions, like "how come everything is so well suited for me?" or "why do we exist with apes if we are from them?" Honestly, the questions sound like something you'd hear from a five year old.

Creationism is about as much a theory as me stating that the universe was created by a flying spaghetti monster.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on July 31, 2013, 03:28:40 pm
^ That's also an opinion. It would be impossible to actually know how any of that stuff was actually created, unless you were there. The same goes with any religious belief. Saying that other religious beliefs are "dumb" or "stupid" is not really going to help the argument whatsoever. I guess one of the big reasons for Christians dying off in the U.S. is because they just don't stand up for their beliefs as much as atheists. I also do not understand why atheists think it is amusing to prove that other religions are wrong, if religion does not even matter to them.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on July 31, 2013, 03:50:04 pm
Oh for fucks sake dude. I answered your simple questions about why we coexist with apes and the pig DNA thing and you wave away the answers because they are "opinion"? I guess you just can't grasp simple scientific concepts. Does water and air confuse you too? I'd explain those things, but my answers would probably be "opinion" as well. "Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen? How can I know if that is true if I'm not there?"

It's just such a backwards stance to take when confronted with answers. And no, religion is not an answer. It is a belief, with faith acting as the support. I'm cool with people looking to religion for emotional answers, but it just gets messy, and frankly extremely fucked up, when people start to apply religion to every aspect including scientific concepts.

When you ask stuff like "Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?" and "Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?", the Bible will not provide these answers. Science will. I provided the answers. Like I said: We did not evolve from modern day apes. They, and us, evolved from apelike creatures who existed 5 and 8 million years ago. Why are there not mixed species? The question itself is phrased badly. We, as we are now, did not exist when our ancestor existed. Unless somebody time travels to 5-8 million years ago and fucks our apelike ancestor, there cannot be a mix.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on July 31, 2013, 04:25:49 pm
Gorillas are self aware, other animals, not really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDGQySZ1gbs
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on July 31, 2013, 09:50:11 pm
Barry, I really did not intend to make you so upset. I do not think time travel would be possible because what has already happened has already happened. Changing it would just simply not work. I realize you answered my questions. I know what water is. Water is an odorless and tasteless liquid, yet no living thing can live without it. I realize what air is. It is what we need in order to breathe. I respect that you do not believe in God. I hope that you will respect that I do. I'm sorry if I caused you to be angry in any way. I was just telling you that it was an opinion.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: CrazyT on July 31, 2013, 10:40:32 pm
I have not noticed much difference from Islamic people and Jewish people. I mean, they both believe in Jesus, they just both don't believe He was the Messiah. They both believe in the same God. Do they not have the exact same belief?
There's a lot of misinformation regarding islam, so i really cant blame anyone.

we actually do believe he was the mesiah. The bible for us is actually a great source to learn more about jesus in addition to the quran. We believe in all his miracles. only difference is that we believe he pulled them off with the permission and aid/power of god, similar to moses. we also dont like to believe jesus was actually crucified.

I dont know much about judaism and how close our religions are. I do know valuing jesus as one of the greatest men/prophet puts us a lot closer to the christians.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 01, 2013, 12:06:44 am
Let's not 'disprove' religion or evolution. That isn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread is "Why Christianity is dying in the US" and the answer to that in my opinion comes from differnet factors. Some that I already shared.

First is the massive amounts of bullshit. No, I'm not talking about the bible in whole, but stuff that gets added on that it is total horseshit, so much so that no one in their right mind can go 'Oh, yes, that has to be right'. Stupid shit like those stupid ass 'weeping statues' that are always found to be fake, holy clothing.

The other thing is the existence of Jesus doesn't seem to hold much weight on it either, as seen in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvleOBYTrDE

Is there a God? Who knows. But in my opinion if there was a creator, I don't see why we can't evolve anyway? Like, what sort of God would make a species one way, even if that mean't extinction? How does the Noah story even work without evolution? Do you think that Noah found every single beetle in the world? You know how many types of beetles there are? Over 250,000. Good luck with that.

I think the idea of 'hardcore Christians' refusing to 'accept' the obvious is what is killing Christianity. They refuse to acknowledge evolution openly, even the fucking Catholic church accepts evolution. Evangelical Christians are bad for Christianity, honestly. Its funny, because thousands of years ago they had no problem expanding and taking other believes to spread the word (look at us taking holidays like Easter, Christmas and such from Pagans), but now it seems that they are backwards with accepting new ideas.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 01, 2013, 01:38:41 am
Even the Vatican believes Evolution is compatible with Christianity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote
Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said while the Church had been hostile to Darwin's theory in the past, the idea of evolution could be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas.

Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Santa Croce University in Rome, added that 4th century theologian St Augustine had "never heard the term evolution, but knew that big fish eat smaller fish" and forms of life had been transformed "slowly over time". Aquinas made similar observations in the Middle Ages.

Ahead of a papal-backed conference next month marking the 150th anniversary of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, the Vatican is also set to play down the idea of Intelligent Design, which argues a "higher power" must be responsible for the complexities of life.

The conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University will discuss Intelligent Design to an extent, but only as a "cultural phenomenon" rather than a scientific or theological issue.

Monsignor Ravasi said Darwin's theories had never been formally condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, pointing to comments more than 50 years ago, when Pope Pius XII described evolution as a valid scientific approach to the development of humans.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 01, 2013, 01:54:04 am
There's a lot of misinformation regarding islam, so i really cant blame anyone.

we actually do believe he was the mesiah. The bible for us is actually a great source to learn more about jesus in addition to the quran. We believe in all his miracles. only difference is that we believe he pulled them off with the permission and aid/power of god, similar to moses. we also dont like to believe jesus was actually crucified.

I dont know much about judaism and how close our religions are. I do know valuing jesus as one of the greatest men/prophet puts us a lot closer to the christians.

Fascinating. I never knew Islamic faith believed Jesus was the messiah.

Quote
Do you think that Noah found every single beetle in the world? You know how many types of beetles there are? Over 250,000. Good luck with that.

The story wasn't really meant to be taken literally. The Torah (Old Testament) as a whole isn't, even in Orthodox Jewish faith. At least, going by what I've learned from my family.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 01, 2013, 03:12:38 am
I think the idea of 'hardcore Christians' refusing to 'accept' the obvious is what is killing Christianity. They refuse to acknowledge evolution openly, even the...Catholic church accepts evolution. Evangelical Christians are bad for Christianity, honestly. Its funny, because thousands of years ago they had no problem expanding and taking other believes to spread the word (look at us taking holidays like Easter, Christmas and such from Pagans), but now it seems that they are backwards with accepting new ideas.

I believe that other animals evolve. It's obvious that they do. I mean, caterpillars currently evolve into butterflies. I am sure that beetles can fly, so could they not have survived the storm? If not, then God probably created the minor animals later. After all, He is God. You could be right though. On the other hand, people might have been shorter at one time. That does not necessarily prove they came from primates. The primates have longer front legs than front legs. This enables them to climb trees more easily. Humans have longer back legs than front legs. This is so we can walk on our feet and use our hands for work.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 01, 2013, 08:00:38 am
I was going to get into further discussion, but then I realized I'm arguing with the guy who wants to go to war to kill homosexuals for wanting equal rights.

So yeah... Christianity is dying thanks to lunatics like you.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 01, 2013, 10:02:37 am
I believe that other animals evolve. It's obvious that they do. I mean, caterpillars currently evolve into butterflies. I am sure that beetles can fly, so could they not have survived the storm? If not, then God probably created the minor animals later. After all, He is God. You could be right though. On the other hand, people might have been shorter at one time. That does not necessarily prove they came from primates. The primates have longer front legs than front legs. This enables them to climb trees more easily. Humans have longer back legs than front legs. This is so we can walk on our feet and use our hands for work.

That's not "evolution", that's metamorphosis, which is COMPLETELY different in every conceivable way. Metamorphosis is the process in which a larvae turns into an adult. Evolution is the slow mutation of animals over time into different animals. Over the course of millions of years, trillions of mutations occurred, and small handful turned out to be beneficial enough to be passed on to future generations, which over time lead to the development of new species, species specialized for their environments. This is NOT something that can be observed in a lab with most life, but it HAS been observed in bacteria. This theory of evolution is also supported by a vast fossil record which showcases the older forms of a variety of animals including humans, as well as DNA.


I don't know what you mean by "people being shorter at one time doesn't mean they were descended from apes", but that was never an argument. If you want to see why we are descended from primates...why we ARE primates, you need only look at your hands, then look at the hands of a chimpanzee, and note the similarities. It has its differences, but for all those differences, it is remarkably similar to a human hand.

Humans (which are PRIMATES by the way) evolved their bipedal locomotion to survive in the tall grasses of the savannah, which was encroaching on our ancestor's forest habitat when they first began to evolve this mutation. Our noses evolved the way they did in order to keep dust out of our nostrils so we can breath properly. We evolved to have free hands so that we could create and handle tools with ease, carry food back to the group, carry our helpless babies, fight animals with weapons, and create new inventions. We evolved to find sex pleasurable not so that it can be denied to us, and not even because it encourages us to reproduce, but because it can strengthen the bonds between individuals in a group, something that is very important for creatures like us who cannot survive very well alone. This behavior, by the way, is something that has also been seen in bonobos, one of our closest living relatives. We evolved huge brains so that we could solve problems and create ways of not only overcoming our own shortcomings, but to exploit the world around us in a way no other animal can. With these large brains, we developed morals to help us better survive in a group. We began asking questions that had no answers, and so we invented beings and myths to give us those answers. "Gods".

Barry is correct about one of the reasons Christianity is "dying" (though it REALLY ISN'T), but another reason why is because I can even type the above, and because there is a vocal number of people within the Christian community who refuse to believe it, and instead point towards dubious theories with no scientific backing, and point to stories with even LESS scientific backing and evidence as "historical truths". This is why I find the idea of a Judeo-Christian god as such a hard pill to swallow.

Finally, not all beetles can fly, and even more beetles don't have the strength to survive a storm for 40 days and 40 nights with no land to land on. Thankfully, beetles never had to survive it, because most of the Torah (or as you know it, the Old Testament) is not meant to be taken word for word "literally" as a historical document. It is meant to inform Jewish belief and faith, not be a history book. So simply put, the Great Flood never happened, at least not on a global scale (there isn't even enough water on the planet for that to happen).

Of course you could just say "God made more water" and "God made beetles after the flood" (even though we have beetle fossils with their old color still on them dating back 47 million years, long before humans ever existed, let lone Noah and the Great Flood http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/beetle-fossil-colors/ ), but then again, you could also say "God was the cause of the big bang, which created the universe that changed and evolved over billions of years under His subtle influence, which eventually gave rise to this solar system, this planet, and eventually life, which then evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and eventually lead to modern day animals including humans, which this God then interacted with". I fail to see why the Great Flood NEEDS to be a thing that happened, and why Christianity cannot co-exist with scientific theory. Though I personally belief the human Gods are myths created to fill voids in our understanding, I do believe that  there is the possibility of some higher being that we lack the ability, perspective, or technology to comprehend.

The main reason why Christianity has lost some of its sway with people is because its become less relevant as a way to understand the world around us. There are still plenty of scientists out there who believe in these scientific theories but are also religious. If religion has any value beyond being a literal history of the world (which it does), Christianity will survive just fine. I know Judaism is going to do just swell in this more scientific world, because we don't believe things like the Flood actually happened. We leave the Torah up to the interpretation of the individual, and use it as a moral guide.

Now then, with that off my chest, I do agree with Barry's sentiments. I will just leave you with this: if you really want to know the scientific theories of why humans are the way they are, check out the works of Desmond Morris. They are a little dated by scientific standards, but are still filled with wonderful insight into how the human animal came to be.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 01, 2013, 02:24:35 pm
My reaction to Nux's post:

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/costanza-clapping.gif)

Brilliantly written.

I wanted to add this excellent speech written by the late, great, Douglas Adams: http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/

There is also an audio version of the speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogQRjpcqm0k

I just love this portion:

Quote
Where does the idea of God come from? Well, I think we have a very skewed point of view on an awful lot of things, but let's try and see where our point of view comes from. Imagine early man. Early man is, like everything else, an evolved creature and he finds himself in a world that he's begun to take a little charge of; he's begun to be a tool-maker, a changer of his environment with the tools that he's made and he makes tools, when he does, in order to make changes in his environment. To give an example of the way man operates compared to other animals, consider speciation, which, as we know, tends to occur when a small group of animals gets separated from the rest of the herd by some geological upheaval, population pressure, food shortage or whatever and finds itself in a new environment with maybe something different going on.

Take a very simple example; maybe a bunch of animals suddenly finds itself in a place where the weather is rather colder. We know that in a few generations those genes which favour a thicker coat will have come to the fore and we'll come and we'll find that the animals have now got thicker coats. Early man, who's a tool maker, doesn't have to do this: he can inhabit an extraordinarily wide range of habitats on earth, from tundra to the Gobi Desert - he even manages to live in New York for heaven's sake - and the reason is that when he arrives in a new environment he doesn't have to wait for several generations; if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I'll have it off him”. Tools have enabled us to think intentionally, to make things and to do things to create a world that fits us better.

Now imagine an early man surveying his surroundings at the end of a happy day's tool making. He looks around and he sees a world which pleases him mightily: behind him are mountains with caves in - mountains are great because you can go and hide in the caves and you are out of the rain and the bears can't get you; in front of him there's the forest - it's got nuts and berries and delicious food; there's a stream going by, which is full of water - water's delicious to drink, you can float your boats in it and do all sorts of stuff with it; here's cousin Ug and he's caught a mammoth - mammoth's are great, you can eat them, you can wear their coats, you can use their bones to create weapons to catch other mammoths. I mean this is a great world, it's fantastic.

But our early man has a moment to reflect and he thinks to himself, 'well, this is an interesting world that I find myself in' and then he asks himself a very treacherous question, a question which is totally meaningless and fallacious, but only comes about because of the nature of the sort of person he is, the sort of person he has evolved into and the sort of person who has thrived because he thinks this particular way. Man the maker looks at his world and says 'So who made this then?' Who made this? - you can see why it's a treacherous question. Early man thinks, 'Well, because there's only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he's probably male'. And so we have the idea of a god.

Then, because when we make things we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself , 'If he made it, what did he make it for?' Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, 'This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely' and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 01, 2013, 02:34:59 pm
I was going to get into further discussion, but then I realized I'm arguing with the guy who wants to go to war to kill homosexuals for wanting equal rights.

So yeah... Christianity is dying thanks to lunatics like you.

You are a lunatic if I am. You are the one cursing at me, trying to prove my religion is wrong, and telling me my beliefs are dumb. You shouldn't even be an administrator, if you treat people that way. By the way, change the home page. It still says "Happy 4th of July". All of you "smart" administrators forgot to change it.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 01, 2013, 03:32:10 pm
So... ignore everything Nux and I wrote and instead nitpick a little message Will posted a month ago and attack my title? Nice.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on August 01, 2013, 04:19:12 pm
Quote
I fail to see why the Great Flood NEEDS to be a thing that happened, and why Christianity cannot co-exist with scientific theory.

I think it can, for example, you gave a plausible explanation to something that by the same explanation, never happened (the great floods as described in Noah's tale).
Also it should be noted in your explanation about the origin of morality and the need to create Gods (though early pagan culture was fairly non-theistic, Babylon, Greek and early Roman was polytheistic), that even something like myths can and in many cases are based on some form of truth, on something plausible. Myths in most cases are either a product of over-elaborated historical accounts, allegories, personification of phenomenoms and rituals. If nothing else, there's always a grain of truth that was behind the myth.

What I mean to say is that even despite the growing lust over technocracy and this insane notion that the scientific method is the only true way to view the world and such, that doesn't not make morality any less trivial because it.

We can acknowledge an imperfect world, we can acknowledge that sometimes one has to step outside of the norms, but the norms are not without meaning.

Also, I would like to add these for further insight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5siHd1P5zk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niIAJC24zd4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsOo-W49kJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlE7xvc4LoY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ElbBq3-5q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4zsBAN7iGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ6zmWbiRm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m81yAOiSiLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G7kPfaVnPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHG6YTJ_sT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wozub7b_Whs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBehwncsgbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEeaflyHiMk
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 01, 2013, 05:24:19 pm
I think it can, for example, you gave a plausible explanation to something that by the same explanation, never happened (the great floods as described in Noah's tale).
Also it should be noted in your explanation about the origin of morality and the need to create Gods (though early pagan culture was fairly non-theistic, Babylon, Greek and early Roman was polytheistic), that even something like myths can and in many cases are based on some form of truth, on something plausible. Myths in most cases are either a product of over-elaborated historical accounts, allegories, personification of phenomenoms and rituals. If nothing else, there's always a grain of truth that was behind the myth.


Certainly, I'm sure there is a GRAIN of truth to Noah's Flood. There are flood myths all around the world, likely related to local floods experienced by the people there. Floods are a common and worldwide phenomenon after all. Much like how a variety of civilizations have myths regarding giants and dragons, stemming from the discovery of ancient fossils. But a worldwide flood and a giant ark that carried two of every animal simply never happened.

You are a lunatic if I am. You are the one cursing at me, trying to prove my religion is wrong, and telling me my beliefs are dumb. You shouldn't even be an administrator, if you treat people that way. By the way, change the home page. It still says "Happy 4th of July". All of you "smart" administrators forgot to change it.

I realize it's a massive read and I didn't take the time to spell check because I've got other things to do, but I do think I asked a few fair questions of you.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 01, 2013, 05:41:39 pm
By the way, change the home page. It still says "Happy 4th of July". All of you "smart" administrators forgot to change it.

Check-mate, Atheism.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 01, 2013, 05:51:30 pm
Wait, I do disagree with the whole cursing, but Barry did NOT curse at you. He just generally cursed, not directly at you, just said 'for fucks sake dude,' which to me isn't insulting at all. He also isn't calling your religion dumb, he is calling 'wanting to kill homosexuals' dumb, which lets be honest... it its ignorant.

I don't understand why religious people can't just co-exist with homosexuals, who gives a fuck?

The reason most Christians can't co-exist with science or evolution, is due to how they are brought up. Let's see, America is 75% Christians, according to studies. Meaning that 75% of house holds teach kids about God and all that jazz, which is fine. I'm 100% for parents teaching their kids about God, the issue is that they basically teach it as a fact of life. Their kids, their choice. So their kids grow up believing that God made the world, there is a hell (lol) and any other views they their parents where thought get passed down.

So now this kid grows up hating science thinking its an attack on everything they grew up believing, which honestly, it is NOT. Notice how most people in America don't change faiths or have a hard time accepting that maybe, just maybe, there isn't a God out there.

I pretty much knew I was an Atheist when I first went to Sunday school at the age of 8 and asked simple questions, which they punished me because 'I was trying to be funny'.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on August 01, 2013, 06:19:16 pm
For what is worth, I was born and raised in a 99% catholic country (my Mom's a hardcore Christian and admires the new Pope Francis), I don't remotely remember any issue of science vs religion growing up.

I remember the first time I have even heard of the term "Creationism" -> 2005, when I started having actual broadband Internet connection. And even to this day, I don't care about that "clash". I've long gotten the impression that the Internet and social media make a conflict seem more dramatic than what it really is.

Want an intelligent converstation about it? Try sitting through a 2 hour chat on Youtube between a theologist and a philoshoper if that flicks your switch.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 01, 2013, 06:20:52 pm
George, I can really see what you are saying. I ask questions about God a good bit myself because I just don't understand how truly powerful He is. I have also experienced other Christians that have been very rude to me. Anyone can be rude to people though. It's what humans do. We all sin. You can believe in whatever it is you want to believe in. That goes for Barry and anyone else in the world. I respect all religions. I am really glad that some atheists are willing to respect mine too.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on August 02, 2013, 05:57:27 am
Nevertheless, there's one issue that keeps getting repeated over and over again, is the notion of Christians being anti-science or anti-evolution for that matter.

There is no shortage of palpable evidence against this notion: Take Richard Dawkins research and Francis Collin's research, for example (http://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/dawkins-vs-collins/).

The former doesn't actually do much research while the latter actually does proper science.

One of the major problem we have today is that even the very terminology of science is also being swept away for trendy subjective redefinitions.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 02, 2013, 01:24:51 pm
Nevertheless, there's one issue that keeps getting repeated over and over again, is the notion of Christians being anti-science or anti-evolution for that matter.

There is no shortage of palpable evidence against this notion: Take Richard Dawkins research and Francis Collin's research, for example (http://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/dawkins-vs-collins/).

The former doesn't actually do much research while the latter actually does proper science.

One of the major problem we have today is that even the very terminology of science is also being swept away for trendy subjective redefinitions.

Yeah. There is actually a website dedicated to proving God's existence.

Godandscience.org
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 02, 2013, 01:57:18 pm
The issue here is that most of the bible has mostly been disproven and people always say 'Don't take the word of God literally', then why bother reading at all? Honestly seems the more and more you think of it in context the more it seems to be reading a book written by humans. Do you really think that God gives to shits about slave trading agreements, what our clothes are made of and if we jerk it?

Now if there is a higher power, who knows. But the bible and Christianity itself is a hard pill to swallow. Its weird what people accept but most christians have accepted a white looking Jesus and never bat an eye... so you'll be surprised.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 02, 2013, 05:12:27 pm
It really depends on what translation you read out of. I personally use a language translator after using the original Hebrew text. It is completely different from most translations in English. It was very hard for most people in the Middle Ages to read the Bible from English because it did not exist in English until King James ordered people to translate it for him.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 03, 2013, 02:00:10 pm

Now if there is a higher power.

I would say Black Holes are very powerful, they are made from dead stars. D:

I wonder what God thinks of Black Holes...perhaps it's his plughole and the Universe is his bath.

**I am not that religious honestly...although I like some of the ideas from it.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 05, 2013, 06:15:30 am
If you believe in a god, the Bible isn't hard to believe at all. There are some miracles, which are made by the all-mighty god you believe in. So if you beieve there's a god capable of miracles, I guess it's easy to believe that he has made some over time.

As for creationism:
While it is commonly accepted that animals go through evolution processes, the idea of them evolving from the same original life form is farfetched. You have to be nuts to believe the current theory of how the first cell appeared for example. Not even mentioning the reasoning behind a supposedly random trigger of the Big Bang.
As for Human evolution, the evidence is so poor that it boggles one's mind as to why people accept it as factual. It's true that it's the best model science can come up with without taking into account extraterrestrial creation, but it's far from being solid.

In my point of view you either believe in god or you don't. If you do, the explanations on the Bible are reasonable enough. If you don't, then there are theoretical models that try to explain everything.

Either way there is some sort of faith involved: believing theories that can't be prooved or disprooved in one's lifetime.
The biggest problem though is the arrogance that makes some people disrespect others' beliefs. Example: a user's arrogance ("science provides the answer to everything" implying that if it isn't science it's wrong) turns out to be insulting and leads into a bunch of personal attacks.

I have had some numerous interesting conversations with people with different beliefs than mine. It's good to know other points of view. But I didn't feel the need to try and prove they were wrong. Some people need to feel they are "standing up to what is right". But in this subject it all comes down to what EACH INDIVIDUAL thinks it's right.

People who attack others' beliefs are just baiting for fruitless arguments.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 05, 2013, 01:48:01 pm
If you believe in a god, the Bible isn't hard to believe at all. There are some miracles, which are made by the all-mighty god you believe in. So if you beieve there's a god capable of miracles, I guess it's easy to believe that he has made some over time.

As for creationism:
While it is commonly accepted that animals go through evolution processes, the idea of them evolving from the same original life form is farfetched. You have to be nuts to believe the current theory of how the first cell appeared for example. Not even mentioning the reasoning behind a supposedly random trigger of the Big Bang.
As for Human evolution, the evidence is so poor that it boggles one's mind as to why people accept it as factual. It's true that it's the best model science can come up with without taking into account extraterrestrial creation, but it's far from being solid.

In my point of view you either believe in god or you don't. If you do, the explanations on the Bible are reasonable enough. If you don't, then there are theoretical models that try to explain everything.

Either way there is some sort of faith involved: believing theories that can't be prooved or disprooved in one's lifetime.
The biggest problem though is the arrogance that makes some people disrespect others' beliefs. Example: a user's arrogance ("science provides the answer to everything" implying that if it isn't science it's wrong) turns out to be insulting and leads into a bunch of personal attacks.

I have had some numerous interesting conversations with people with different beliefs than mine. It's good to know other points of view. But I didn't feel the need to try and prove they were wrong. Some people need to feel they are "standing up to what is right". But in this subject it all comes down to what EACH INDIVIDUAL thinks it's right.

People who attack others' beliefs are just baiting for fruitless arguments.

I believe that humans could be primates. That does not mean we evolved though. Sharks are fish. Anchovies are fish. That does not mean that sharks came from anchovies. What the evolutionary belief is...

1. No God.
2. No meaning of life.
3. Just dead after death. No afterlife.
4. No goals.
5. No purpose.
6. No free will.
7. No foundation for ethics or morals.
8. No happiness.

Yeah. Sure. Great belief you atheists have. Every unique effect had to have an adequate cause. That is the law of cause and effect. An explosion/big bang would have to come from somewhere. It didn't just appear out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 05, 2013, 02:02:33 pm
Wow. So people who believe in evolution and do not believe in god have none of these things?

Quote
1. No God.

Who needs it?

Quote
2. No meaning of life.

Having a life in and of itself is meaning enough.

Quote
3. Just dead after death. No afterlife.

Makes you enjoy the time you have even more. No looking forward to some fairy tale.

Quote
4. No goals.

If that was the case, I wouldn't have a successful career, a wife, great friends, aspirations, the work I do on this site. But look at that, I do have goals.

Quote
5. No purpose.

Life itself is enough purpose. Family, friends, and life's many experiences provide all the purpose needed.

Quote
6. No free will.

Not being tied to religious doctrine = no free will? Better check that again.

Quote
7. No foundation for ethics or morals.

Right here is one of the biggest pieces of bullshit on your list. Well, all your points are bullshit but this is the biggest one of them all. The people that matter to me - my family and friends and coworkers - they are what drive me and my decisions. I have my own code of ethics or morals shaped by the people around me. What I do impacts them. I strive to be a good person because I don't want to let them down and hurt them. I don't care about God. I care about the people I love.

Quote
8. No happiness.

The people I love bring me happiness. Not religion. Not god.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 05, 2013, 06:28:01 pm
Looking at Barry's gamertag, it seems he's been playing VF5: Final Showdown. Surely that game's existence is proof that there is a good and loving God?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 05, 2013, 06:32:35 pm
AM2 are gods, not God.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 05, 2013, 07:21:51 pm
So Barry, you're a person who hates Christians. Yeah. We kind of knew that already by your previous posts. That doesn't mean you have to force your beliefs on us. I was just trying to say that those are the things that most atheists live by. I don't even see how you can stand losing a loved one, if you think they will just go away forever. It must be really sad being an atheist. You know what it is? It's just that you are too lazy to live by rules. Instead, you make your own. Which is fine with me. Your beliefs do not effect my life very much. I respect that you do not believe in God. Why can you not respect Christianity, instead of calling it "dumb" or "b.s."?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 05, 2013, 07:44:36 pm
Barry, don't call things dumb. pcm, stop assuming things.

Let's just get along and agree that AM2 is heavenly.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 05, 2013, 07:54:18 pm
You're hilarious, you know that? For starters, I don't hate Christians. I have friends who are Christians. They're nice people, just as nice as any other people I know who prescribe to other beliefs or choose to not follow any religious code.

Have I forced my beliefs on you? From what I see, I've defended my right to not live under any religion. You have these ridiculous, and frankly outdated ideas of homosexuality (kill them!) and atheism (your little list of things you claim atheists "live by", which by the way are not what they live by at all as I laid out on the previous page).

Want to know how I can't stand losing a loved one? I loved them, I'll never see them again. They're gone. It's really fucking sad. What, do you think I whistle and say "ho hum! guess they're gone for good!". No. I remember the good times and feel deep sadness, but I also accept the reality of it all and treasure the time I had with them. So don't even dare insinuate that I, or any atheist for that matter, do not miss those who have died.

Too lazy? From what you've laid out it seems to be more complicated being an atheist. You can't simply fall back on the reassuring words of god. You have to both accept the harsh realities and life and see the natural beauty in all of live's experiences and enjoy the short life that you have to the fullest. Doesn't sound lazy to me.

What I'm seeing here is a constant need from you to have my respect for Christianity, yet when it comes to my beliefs (which, by the way, I have never said I am an outright atheist, so thanks for labeling the guy who sees evolution as a truth as the big bad atheist) you are finding it very easy to pity me for living what you seem to deem a sad, lazy, loveless existence.

---

Barry, don't call things dumb. pcm, stop assuming things.

Let's just get along and agree that AM2 is heavenly.

I never called anything "dumb". Do a word search throughout the topic. It was actually George who said it, and even then he was right in doing so:

Quote
He also isn't calling your religion dumb, he is calling 'wanting to kill homosexuals' dumb, which lets be honest... it its ignorant.

Wanting to kill homosexuals is very, very dumb.

---

Having said all that, we're going to go in circles here so let's go back to your initial post and keep things simple:

"Why do you think it is dying? Does it stand a chance of coming back?"

I don't think it is dying, I think it is changing. As such, it doesn't need a chance of coming back because it never left.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 06, 2013, 06:29:18 am
So Barry, you're a person who hates Christians. Yeah. We kind of knew that already by your previous posts.

I personally saw it as he's making non-serious posts since religion creates some really hostile posts.

I respect all religions but I also don't like the things they consider bad, such as homosexuality.

In threads like this, I don't really talk about my beliefs much since you end up seeing even forum friends as preachers, and I don't believe anyone here wants to do that and come across in a bad way for what they believe in...but it does happen sadly.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 06, 2013, 06:18:24 pm
I believe that humans could be primates. That does not mean we evolved though. Sharks are fish. Anchovies are fish. That does not mean that sharks came from anchovies. What the evolutionary belief is...

1. No God.
2. No meaning of life.
3. Just dead after death. No afterlife.
4. No goals.
5. No purpose.
6. No free will.
7. No foundation for ethics or morals.
8. No happiness.

Yeah. Sure. Great belief you atheists have. Every unique effect had to have an adequate cause. That is the law of cause and effect. An explosion/big bang would have to come from somewhere. It didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Dude....I came here to write up a Tuesday Tunes, and yet these sorts of posts keep distracting me.

NO ONE EVER SAID SHARKS EVOLVED FROM ANCHOVIES. NO ONE. FIND ME A SINGLE ARTICLE THAT EVEN IMPLIES THAT THAT IS HOW EVOLUTION WORKS.

I am not a scientist. I have no interest in becoming one. But even I can understand how evolution works! The idea isn't that one modern day creature somehow evolved from other. The idea is that we had creatures that lived long ago that, over millions of years, developed beneficial mutations that proved beneficial and resulted in this one, single species evolving into multiple kinds of species, each with their own mutations and adaptations.

You want proof? Take a look at your own body, which is littered with leftover from are more primal selves. That hair your body is covered in? It does not have any actual purpose. It's "vestigial" (a useless remnant that no longer serves any function). It still shares functions with other, furrier animals: when we are frightened or cold, it pokes up (goosebumps). In other, furrier animals, this would serve to both help trap in heat in a cold environment and make the animal look bigger when threatened. But in us it's just a useless reaction. You also have a tailbone, a remnant from our more monkey-like ancestors that, again, serves no purpose.

Then, there are the wisdom teeth, which you may or may not have. These teeth are leftovers from are larger jawed, herbivorous ancestors. In us, wisdom teeth are useless, and often even need to be removed due to the pain they can cause.

And no, evolutionary belief is NONE of those things. Even Vatican scientists believe in Evolution. Are you telling me the Vatican doesn't have God  or an afterlife?

Addressing your list directly...

1. I don't need God. Why do I need God? I've lived my entire life without belief in God.

2. Life doesn't need any greater meaning. Life is what you make of it. Do I really need to devote a substantial part of my life to a deity I never see or hear from? No. I'd rather devote my life to learning about the world around me and me and finding my place in it.

3. I don't need an afterlife. I'm content with what I have, and knowing that whatever I was before my life is simply what I'll go back too. Nothingness is certainly preferable to being damned to eternal torture because I was not born into the right belief system (which I'll probably be getting into more in a minute).

4. I am currently in college studying for a University major, and I am also working on a comic book that I intend to use to eventually jumpstart a little publishing company with a focus on bringing inexperienced creators together and getting their stuff out their, provided the actual comic I am working on is any good. It took me a little while to decide on these goals (I only decided to go for a journalism major about a year ago after three years in school) but that has little to do with my disbelief in Monotheistic God: I am just indecisive.

6. So, because I question the world around me and refuse to belief in any dogmatic system without a shred of real hard evidence, I have no free will? O....kay? I am not sure you are putting much thought into this, and I am beginning to think you are just blindly parroting what other people tell you to parrot. Which, if I have the correct definition of the word, would be considered ironic. I think after I finish posting this I am going to play some Pikmin, work on my comic book, then post a Tuesday Tunes. Not because I want to...but because a mysterious atheistic force COMPELS me to. :|

7. And this is the part where things just get kind of insulting. But then again, I'm not really holding myself back anymore so I probably am not one to talk. ANYWAY, this is suggesting that I have no morals....which I'd have to disagree with. I don't like hurting creatures and I often try to go out of my way not to do so. I can't even bare to kill cockroaches myself simply because I tend to empathize with anything that MIGHT feel pain, let alone let anyone else around me kill something. I've helped friends out with expenses, given them gifts, helped them do things. I WANT to be a good person, and it has nothing to do with a belief in god or a fear that I will be sent to hell otherwise.

8. Happiness is not in religion. It's a state of mind. I can get down on myself sometimes, but it isn't because I don't think there is a God out there who loves me. It is over my own personal failings, failings I try to correct. I am quite happy right now. My comic is making some progress, I have an awesome room mate moving in soon, I am finally making progress on my major, and I am done with this post. I don't need god for any of that.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on August 06, 2013, 07:47:19 pm
And because I am so tired of this argument: Misconcepts about Christians (http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/a/misconceptions.htm)

Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 06, 2013, 08:31:19 pm
And because I am so tired of this argument: Misconcepts about Christians (http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/a/misconceptions.htm)



Yep, pretty much. Christians are regular people.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Emmett The Crab on August 06, 2013, 10:03:40 pm
Except people who think evolution is an animal changing into another animal, and that homosexuals should be killed make them all look stupid and bigoted.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 06, 2013, 11:07:12 pm
I never understood the thinking behind 'what caused the big bang, huh, ya athiest swine, answer me that!', but what came before God? How was God created? Where did he come from? Where did his powers come from? Did he just 'transform'?

See, we don't have answers to everything in life and that's fine. We will probably never know (in our life times) what caused the big bang. We just have to get used to not knowing all the answers.

I'm surprised people on here don't think we evolved over time, I mean, how can you deny that? With all the evidence (some say here lack there of), but there have been more than 6,000 individual fossils that support the claim.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils

There is obviously more proof that evolution exist than there is of Jesus actually existing and he 'walked the earth only 2,000 years ago. Imagine trying to dig up stuff from millions of years?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 07, 2013, 12:14:46 am
I never understood the thinking behind 'what caused the big bang, huh, ya athiest swine, answer me that!', but what came before God? How was God created? Where did he come from? Where did his powers come from? Did he just 'transform'?

I think it's because people use Big Bang Theory as a hand wave to deny the existence of God, but the two could actually be compatible theories, because where did all that matter come from?

Big Bang Theory is also the worst television show ever. That, or Two Broke Girls, but at least I can ogle Kat Dennings on that show...
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Emmett The Crab on August 07, 2013, 12:33:14 am
They are all theories.  :)
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on August 07, 2013, 02:36:14 am
Ah, yes... Primum movens aka The First Cause.

It's the toughest philosophical question of them eall.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 07, 2013, 07:58:50 am
While I don't identify as atheist, I do think this is a very important read for those who assume the many things that pcm does of atheists: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/post/how-do-atheist-find-meaning-in-life/2012/01/18/gIQAbiFP8P_blog.html

It takes a bit of an defensive stance, but I don't think it's unjustified given the comment they're replying to.

Quote
The correspondent was blunt: “Why don’t you atheists just go out and kill yourselves right now?”
True, most Christians phrase it rather more delicately, but atheists are regularly informed by a certain kind of believer that our lives can have no value if we do not believe in their God. What is the point, they ask, of being kind or loving, caring about suffering or doing anything at all, if one day we just die?
It is true that in the absence of a divine plan our lives have no externally determined purpose: an individual is not born for the purpose of becoming a physician or creating a spectacular work of art or digging a well in an arid corner of Africa. But are the sick less cured, the pleasure to the art-lover less intense, or the thirst of parched villagers less slaked, simply because a man sought his own purpose rather than following a diktat from on high? Do we really need a deity to tell us that a life spent curing cancer is more worthwhile than one spent drinking in the gutter?

Why should we not find satisfaction in alleviating suffering or injustice, just because we’re all going to die one day? The very fact that this life is all we have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance. To describe such attempts as meaningless is to say that avoidable suffering does not matter, hardly a moral stance.

Many Christians claim we have no reason to care about others if there is no God. But this is itself a religious claim, arising from the theological concept of Original Sin, which declares humankind fallen and corrupt. We can safely ignore it, for in reality we do not need childish stories of eternal reward or damnation to coerce us into being good: research shows that the least religious societies have the lowest incidence of social ills, including crime and violence. Healthy humans have empathy built in, and the explanations for this lie in psychology and evolutionary biology: no gods required.

Life cannot be meaningless so long as we have the capacity to affect the well-being of ourselves and others. For true meaninglessness, we would need heaven. In the state of permanent, perfect bliss that is the very definition of heaven, ‘making a difference’ is ruled out. If the difference made an improvement, the previous state could not have been perfect. If it made things worse, the result would not be perfect. In heaven, neither is possible. Even being reunited with loved ones could not add one jot to their bliss or yours, for heaven would be, by definition, a state that could not be improved on.

Just consider for a moment the hellish pointlessness of heaven. At least in our real existence our actions have an effect, for better or worse, and it is therefore worth trying to get them right. In an eternal life where we can have no effect whatsoever, we might as well be dead.

If you have ever claimed that your life would have no meaning if it weren’t for your faith in God, do you really believe your family and friends have no worth in their own right? Can you really not see the point in striving to protect and nurture your children, even if there is no eternal life? Really?

If you do, then it is you, not atheists, who debase humanity, and it is Christianity, not atheism, that diminishes the real value and meaning of life. We atheists find purpose in the world as it is, and in our real lives; we see living beings as valuable in their own right, deserving of our concern and compassion simply because they share our capacity for pain and pleasure. It is hard to imagine a position less moral, less conducive to empathy, than this inherently warped and uncharitable view of humanity proposed by Christianity.

This is a perverse view of reality. After all, if the only valuable thing about existence is that God gave it to us, then that must mean the gift is not worth having in its own right. God’s creation would be the equivalent of a shapeless, baggy sweater of dubious color that you would never willingly wear but which you nevertheless can’t bring yourself to throw away because it was a gift from Granny. This approach in effect says you’re grateful for God’s gift, but you don’t actually like it very much; that, were it not for your belief that there’ll be an eternity in heaven to compensate you for having had to endure it, you can see no reason why you’d ever want it.

Theistic religion reduces life to something that has no value other than as the creation of an imagined deity. It decrees that purpose and meaning can only be found in being that deity’s puppet, having no purpose but its purpose and no value other than as its handiwork. Theistic religion looks on all that is best and most noble in human impulse and endeavour and dismisses it as meaningless and worthless --or worse: corrupt --unless done in the name of God. It is time to abandon this baseless worldview. It is time to reject theistic religion and start viewing ourselves and others with real dignity, as beings with value in our own right and not just as the distorted shadows of a fictional creator.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 07, 2013, 02:36:15 pm
I'm an almost-scientist and I believe in god. It isn't incompatible, as someone said about the Big Bang Theory.

Either way, believing in god or not is a choice. You could call it two different theories that try to explain everything.
But the idea that science and the bible colide is false. All scientific "facts" (theories with solid evidence) are either supported by the bible or absent.

If they were incompatible either (A) I couldn't work on my field or (B) I couldn't support a god.

Either way, pcm's extreme points of view DO NOT represent those of everyone who believes in god.
The existence of thousands of religions is more than enough proof that not every religious person thinks/acts the same way. Same way not all atheists are the devil. Many of my friends are atheists, they're good people.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: 3raser on August 07, 2013, 02:45:46 pm
pcm92 is/was trolling in this thread. I highly doubt he/she is even a Christian. Most Christians I know are very happy people and some of them actually support homosexuals. I really don't know if pcm92 is just bored or what. Why would anyone want to kill all homosexuals just because of their religion? Well, I guess they do in some countries. Not where pcm92 is from though.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 07, 2013, 04:27:16 pm
Except people who think evolution is an animal changing into another animal, and that homosexuals should be killed make them all look stupid and bigoted.

True, but neither of those are exclusive to Christians, and within Christianity it is merely a tiny fringe element.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Emmett The Crab on August 07, 2013, 09:36:24 pm
Good point Nuckles. 
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 08, 2013, 02:08:28 am
By the way, I think everyone could benefit from taking a look at this website:

http://www.godofevolution.com

It not only has a few interesting articles that perfectly deconstruct why creationism and young earth theory make no sense, it also perfectly conveys how Christianity and science can co-exist, and even compliment one another.

It also has a section devoted to funny memes and is currently sporting an article about seal raping otters so maybe I should link to one of those articles post haste:

http://www.godofevolution.com/3-seriously-bad-theological-implications-of-creationism/
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 08, 2013, 06:03:13 am
I'm surprised people on here don't think we evolved over time, I mean, how can you deny that? With all the evidence (some say here lack there of), but there have been more than 6,000 individual fossils that support the claim.

Random fact, the human eye has taken 1 BILLION years just to get to the point of seeing depth.

We started out just seeing shapes, with no colour...then the eyes evolved to distinguish objects and then light/shadows, and then colour, and then finally, depth.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 08, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Something about that doesn't sound right. Animal life hasn't been around that long.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 08, 2013, 02:01:15 pm
Nameless24:

No. The human eye and the human ear is an excellent example of what to look at, if you want to believe in God. Look at a chart of the inside of both. It's too complex to be created by evolving. Read Proverbs 20:12.

3raser:

I am a Christian. You were right about the bored thing and the trolling thing. I stay inside all day, every day. I really don't have anything better to do than troll about stuff. I'm not even a Sega fan. I am not kidding when I say this. I support homosexual marriage. Just not adoption. I have never even played a Shenmue game. That's the real truth.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 08, 2013, 05:17:07 pm
I am a Christian. You were right about the bored thing and the trolling thing. I stay inside all day, every day. I really don't have anything better to do than troll about stuff. I'm not even a Sega fan. I am not kidding when I say this. I support homosexual marriage. Just not adoption. I have never even played a Shenmue game. That's the real truth.

Directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 09, 2013, 04:27:55 am
semmie is that you
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 09, 2013, 04:46:24 am
I love pcm92.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 09, 2013, 05:39:32 am
Nameless24:

No. The human eye and the human ear is an excellent example of what to look at, if you want to believe in God. Look at a chart of the inside of both. It's too complex to be created by evolving. Read Proverbs 20:12.

1 billion years is enough to evolve anything pcm92, which is why it's called "Evolution".

I would read the bible, but I don't believe I have one in my room. (It's somewhere though)

And anyway, my religion is Jedi.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: mylifewithsega on August 09, 2013, 04:01:18 pm
I don't have religion. Instead, I have cats.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 09, 2013, 06:12:18 pm
I'm I the only one that gets a bit upset when I think about white Jesus? About how so blatantly offensive white washing him is? Like, its disrespectful and I'm surprised that no one cares.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: 3raser on August 09, 2013, 07:51:14 pm
I think everyone on Segabits is confused about pcm92's actions right now. Back on topic, Christianity will probably not dissolve in the U.S. for another 100 years or so. In the U.K. it would be about thirty years. Ireland is the one where Christianity is dissolving the most. It's mostly because of Muslims, which have similar beliefs anyway. In some other countries, Christianity is growing. Christians could just move to one of those, like Armenia, Chile, or Tuvalu. Those three are probably at the highest possibility of growth in Christianity. For right now, at least.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 10, 2013, 07:03:25 am
I'm I the only one that gets a bit upset when I think about white Jesus? About how so blatantly offensive white washing him is? Like, its disrespectful and I'm surprised that no one cares.
He might have been white or black, most likely chocolate milk color.. But I don't really see what's so offensive, it's what he teached that matters not what he looked like.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: George on August 10, 2013, 06:46:42 pm
Then if it doesn't matter what he looked like, why not depict him the way he actually would have looked like? Oh, thats right, its easier to sell a religion with a white face.
(http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/IV/face-of-jesus-01-0312-de.jpg)

AH, one of those terrorist!
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 10, 2013, 09:25:09 pm
Yeah, that's pretty much how I imagine him to be.. Exept for the nose, because I'm more used to mediterranean faces.

I know catholic church depicts him as some pure white saint, but that's not what all religions do. Most people that use their brain would guess that being born in the middle east he'd look more kebab.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 11, 2013, 02:00:14 pm
What He looked like would be impossible to tell. It's not like someone has ever found His actual body. That's why so many people are still Christians. He is nowhere to be found because He is not on earth. He is in heaven, since He rose from the dead.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 11, 2013, 08:43:00 pm
Wasn't his look inspired by Alexander the Great in a lot of depictions?
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 12, 2013, 01:02:19 am
Nameless24:

No. The human eye and the human ear is an excellent example of what to look at, if you want to believe in God. Look at a chart of the inside of both. It's too complex to be created by evolving. Read Proverbs 20:12.

....so, are you just going to ignore my whole post detailing all of the vestigial parts all over your body that stem from your hairier, more ape like ancestors?

The ear actually also has vestigial traits: the ear has useless muscles that are completely incapable of moving the ear. These muscles serve no purpose, and yet they are there, allowing some people to move there ears slightly. In our ancient ancestors as well as modern monkeys, these muscles are fully developed and capable of moving their ears in multiple directions to pinpoint sounds. 10% of the human population also has another vestigial trait on their ears called Dawin's tubercle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%27s_tubercle

If humans were "created", wouldn't these useless traits and features simply not exist? Answer me that.

What He looked like would be impossible to tell. It's not like someone has ever found His actual body. That's why so many people are still Christians. He is nowhere to be found because He is not on earth. He is in heaven, since He rose from the dead.

...could be that. Or it could be that he's decomposed into unrecognizable human remains just like all the other billions of people who've died over the course of human existence and weren't mummified or otherwise preserved.

I mean, the dude was a carpenter and a prophet, not a pharaoh or wealthy noble. It's unlikely any pains were taken to preserve his body, let alone actual label the body. The lack of proof is not proof.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 12, 2013, 06:14:41 am
I mean, the dude was a carpenter and a prophet, not a pharaoh or wealthy noble. It's unlikely any pains were taken to preserve his body, let alone actual label the body. The lack of proof is not proof.
Dude, I know your opinion is different, but look up the story behind Jesus's death/burial/resurrection lol

As for the rest, wouldn't it be just as possible that humans were created with traits like the hability to move your ears to pinpoint sounds and just lost them over time due to environmental causes?

Human evolution is a spotty theory at best.. Very hard to debate.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 12, 2013, 07:48:06 am
I'm I the only one that gets a bit upset when I think about white Jesus? About how so blatantly offensive white washing him is? Like, its disrespectful and I'm surprised that no one cares.

I think that's because it offends Christians to think of Jesus as black or at least olive skinned.

Regarding Jesus remains...isn't it funny how his tales came out only AFTER he had passed away? You'd want to preserve a sort of celebrity if you wanted to know what his features were like.

Paintings and the like weren't created until the early 10th century or thereabouts (I don't know the exact period), but even then, that is a thousand years too late.

Here's evolution for ya! We're all half a banana! (DNA wise that is)
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 12, 2013, 08:49:09 am
^What was the burning of rome and nearly all christian related things (including christians).
The bible books related to his preachings were written shortly after them (he preached just for 3 years).
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Aki-at on August 12, 2013, 09:38:25 am
Here's evolution for ya! We're all half a banana! (DNA wise that is)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WEd2bM77A5Y/T6KRYqaUjfI/AAAAAAAAJe8/NGDG81j2tFA/s400/Bananas-in-pajamas.jpg)

This is our future!
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 12, 2013, 09:59:35 am
FC Porto bananas.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 12, 2013, 10:06:28 am
Regarding the banana DNA fact, it is something that needs to be expanded upon and explained so that those like pcm don't misinterpret it and think "50%? That means we evolved from bananas, right? Welp! Evolution is untrue!".

This thread at snopes:
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=51513

As well as this article from Scientific American:
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=find-the-dna-in-a-banana-bring-science-home

provide a better understanding of what the 50% match means. Essentially, any two randomized DNA sequences will have 25% match. A 50% match is not specific to bananas either, it's just that bananas are such a funny fruit that it is an entertaining "pop trivia" factoid.

Scientific America says:
Quote
What do you have in common with a banana? Even though we might not look alike, all living things—bananas and people included—are made up of the same basic material.

Just like houses are made up of smaller units such as bricks, all living things are made up trillions of microscopic building blocks called cells. Within an organism, each cell contains a complete set of "blueprints". These directions determine the organism's characteristics.

Other DNA percentages include:

Cat: 90%
Cow: 80%
Mouse: 75%
Fruit Fly: 60%

Things begin to get REALLY similar when we reach chimps, which has that staggeringly high 98% similarity. Human compared to human is 99% and identical twins are 100%.

In any case, comparing and contrasting DNA sequencing is fascinating and I suggest people learn more about it and not just hang on simple factoids for arguments (not saying Nameless or crackdude are, I'm speaking about pcm).
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 12, 2013, 02:45:01 pm
Regarding the banana DNA fact, it is something that needs to be expanded upon and explained so that those like pcm don't misinterpret it and think "50%? That means we evolved from bananas, right? Welp! Evolution is untrue!".

This thread at snopes:
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=51513

As well as this article from Scientific American:
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=find-the-dna-in-a-banana-bring-science-home

provide a better understanding of what the 50% match means. Essentially, any two randomized DNA sequences will have 25% match. A 50% match is not specific to bananas either, it's just that bananas are such a funny fruit that it is an entertaining "pop trivia" factoid.

Scientific America says:
Other DNA percentages include:

Cat: 90%
Cow: 80%
Mouse: 75%
Fruit Fly: 60%

Things begin to get R EALLY similar when we reach chimps, which has that staggeringly high 98% similarity. Human compared to human is 99% and identical twins are 100%.

In any case, comparing and contrasting DNA sequencing is fascinating and I suggest people learn more about it and not just hang on simple factoids for arguments (not saying Nameless or crackdude are, I'm speaking about pcm).

The Internet can tell you many different lies. The only way you can prove anything is if you have evidence.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: MadeManG74 on August 12, 2013, 05:41:41 pm
The Devil put Bananas on earth to trick us into believing evolution.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 12, 2013, 05:54:18 pm
Guys, guys, I just figured it all out!

We didn't came from monkeys. The monkeys came FROM US.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 12, 2013, 08:52:07 pm
How did this thread even get to the topic of discussing where we came from and what Jesus looked like? That was not why this thread was created. The purpose of this thread is for discussing why Christianity is dying in the U.S. I realize most of you have already commented on the reason earlier in the thread. It's just that I think more can be said.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 13, 2013, 05:03:58 am
In any case, comparing and contrasting DNA sequencing is fascinating and I suggest people learn more about it and not just hang on simple factoids for arguments (not saying Nameless or crackdude are, I'm speaking about pcm).

Indeed, research is really fascinating when you delve into things. I like looking at Astronomy myself (nothing to do with my religious beliefs), as it really interests me.

The banana trivia was just something I heard on TV, so I thought I'd mention it. (Although you could say a man's penis is a "banana" of sorts, heh heh)

I also heard the most weirdest theory about Asians as well on some Documentary too...

That Asians are descendants from Aliens! if that's the case, then no wonder their technology is far more advanced than us! XD (I guess people can all agree that Asians aren't Aliens...although they do differ from Europeans and Americans in body form, appearance and possibly intellect).
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Aki-at on August 13, 2013, 06:15:39 am
Guys, guys, I just figured it all out!

We didn't came from monkeys. The monkeys came FROM US.

You just stole an idea I had for a science fiction series I was going to write up :(
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on August 13, 2013, 07:33:59 am
How did this thread even get to the topic of discussing where we came from and what Jesus looked like? That was not why this thread was created. The purpose of this thread is for discussing why Christianity is dying in the U.S. I realize most of you have already commented on the reason earlier in the thread. It's just that I think more can be said.

Your thread has evolved.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: nuckles87 on August 13, 2013, 02:10:48 pm
Dude, I know your opinion is different, but look up the story behind Jesus's death/burial/resurrection lol

As for the rest, wouldn't it be just as possible that humans were created with traits like the hability to move your ears to pinpoint sounds and just lost them over time due to environmental causes?

Human evolution is a spotty theory at best.. Very hard to debate.

Why? I'm Jewish. As far as we're concerned, that's who Christ was. Not the son of God, but a prophet. And he WAS a carpenter, right?

And what you just suggested....IS evolution. That is what evolution IS. Just replace "humans" with "primates" and you'd be completely correct. Evolution is hardly a "spotty" theory, especially when that also happens to be your "alternative" to why humans have these leftover traits from our ancestors.

And don't forget, I didn't just point out ears. Like our vestigial tails? I guess we used to have tails to...until we lost them due to environmental changes. And don't forget the vestigial hair, as well as that hair's now useless response to fear and the cold. Guess those were more useful back when we had a lot more hair! Before we lost them to environmental changes, anyway.

Evolution is only hard to debate when you ignore the metric TON of evidence that supports it in the fossil record, in other living animals, in modern bacteria, and all over your own body.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 13, 2013, 03:39:53 pm
Yes he was. But he also had a proper burial, something ou disconsidered completely.

Also, as I said before, I think that it's pretty much common knowledge by now that species do mutate and adapt over time. That evolution is nearly proved.

But, human evolution is FAR from proved. I don't know the details because it's not my field of study, but I know that some of the most important links between evolutionary steps are missing. The fossil record is WEAK (some supposed species have ONE or TWO fossil records, sometimes nothing more than half a skull).

At the same time, you look at our hairs and say they are vestiges of evolution, I say god put the hair there so my girlfriend could appreciate snuggling against it.

The theory behing the first living cell is a bump above being a bad joke as well. Let alone everything in the universe existing without a well thought out project by ANYONE.

I don't intend to attack your (or anyones) point of view, same way I hope your intentions aren't rude. But I believe it all comes down to what you believe in: a superior being or cosmic chance. You'll need faith whichever one you choose. There is no definite proof on either side. Not yet.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 14, 2013, 05:39:41 am
Now I have to wonder how Nintendo felt when Christians stated that playing and watching Pokemon was a sin because of how the Pokemon evolved.  ;D

But...that'd be an interesting world to live in...and I would have to ask why Human Children don't evolve into Human Adults in the same way.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 16, 2013, 05:43:01 pm
Nameless24, I must say your replies have been purely fictional. Pokemon was a cartoon written as fictional animation. You said before that Asian people were smarter than everyone else in the world. I am not sure where you got that from. The country with the best economy right now is the U.S. The U.S. used to make everything the U.S. had. I think it was Jimmy Carter who changed it, so that almost everything here was made in Asian countries. Don't blame the U.S. for being more ignorant. Blame whichever president it was who made a deal with Asian countries.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 18, 2013, 02:45:30 pm
Nameless24, I must say your replies have been purely fictional.

Pokemon was a cartoon written as fictional animation.

You said before that Asian people were smarter than everyone else in the world. I am not sure where you got that from.

The country with the best economy right now is the U.S. The U.S. used to make everything the U.S. had.

I think it was Jimmy Carter who changed it, so that almost everything here was made in Asian countries. Don't blame the U.S. for being more ignorant. Blame whichever president it was who made a deal with Asian countries.

Fictional? Trivia doesn't have to be factual. What about Myths and Legends of what people believed in Ancient Egyptian/Greek times? Just because it may be "fictonal" doesn't make it any less interesting about how they lived, and what they believed in. I, for one would love to hear stories of those Myths if I were in those ancient times.

Christians have debated as to whether Pokemon is indeed sinful for children, however I was made it as lighthearted as possible. I also know it's a fictional cartoon, doesn't stop a few Christians believing it's bad.

No, I stated that Asians could be aliens from one documentary I saw....that doesn't mean it's true, I was just pointing something which I personally saw as interesting. Being "smarter" was the idea that aliens are smarter than humans...

And you call me random, I never even debated on the US Economy...and no, that would be wrong as well, it's probably New Zealand as they're not in a recession, have money to spend AND are a neutral country with NO army, and where did this patriotic idea come from?

Again, why are you even talking about the economy? I never even mentioned the economy, I made a lighthearted joke that Asians could be aliens due to their intelligence, I never once mentioned that Japan, Singapore, what-have-you, have a better economy than America (although I believe Japan has less debt than America).

I guess I can't at least try to put some fun in debates.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: crackdude on August 18, 2013, 07:00:30 pm
I guess I can't at least try to put some fun in debates.
Yes you can <3
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on August 20, 2013, 02:47:07 am
Fictional? Trivia doesn't have to be factual. What about Myths and Legends of what people believed in Ancient Egyptian/Greek times? Just because it may be "fictonal" doesn't make it any less interesting about how they lived, and what they believed in. I, for one would love to hear stories of those Myths if I were in those ancient times.

Christians have debated as to whether Pokemon is indeed sinful for children, however I was made it as lighthearted as possible. I also know it's a fictional cartoon, doesn't stop a few Christians believing it's bad.

No, I stated that Asians could be aliens from one documentary I saw....that doesn't mean it's true, I was just pointing something which I personally saw as interesting. Being "smarter" was the idea that aliens are smarter than humans...

And you call me random, I never even debated on the US Economy...and no, that would be wrong as well, it's probably New Zealand as they're not in a recession, have money to spend AND are a neutral country with NO army, and where did this patriotic idea come from?

Again, why are you even talking about the economy? I never even mentioned the economy, I made a lighthearted joke that Asians could be aliens due to their intelligence, I never once mentioned that Japan, Singapore, what-have-you, have a better economy than America (although I believe Japan has less debt than America).

I guess I can't at least try to put some fun in debates.

I am sorry if I seemed too harsh. I should have been a little less blunt. Yes. You could put humor in debates. I was just saying that no country is really more intelligent than the other. It's just that some have better economies, so I was guessing that was what you meant. New Zealand ranks 53rd best economy. The U.S. is first. Of course that is by nominal GDP and not PPP. That's only according to the U.N. and the World Bank. Of course, - like you said - you did not mention the economy. This thread was not intended to speak about the economy or intelligence of different countries. It was intended to speak about Christianity in the U.S.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Nameless 24 on August 20, 2013, 07:35:58 am
I am sorry if I seemed too harsh. I should have been a little less blunt.

Yes. You could put humor in debates. I was just saying that no country is really more intelligent than the other. It's just that some have better economies, so I was guessing that was what you meant.

New Zealand ranks 53rd best economy. The U.S. is first. Of course that is by nominal GDP and not PPP. That's only according to the U.N. and the World Bank.

Of course, - like you said - you did not mention the economy. This thread was not intended to speak about the economy or intelligence of different countries. It was intended to speak about Christianity in the U.S.

Fair enough, you seemed reasonable to me and it didn't seem harsh from my perspective.

That's a relief, lol.

That's true, but given the standard of living, to me an economy doesn't seems to differ all that much from each other.

Ah, I stand corrected on the GDP front, although I think we should all have no Army for a peaceful world (and I am sure this is something Christians and non-Christians agree on).

Isn't the World Back called the IMF or something?

I wish I could debate somewhat on Christianity in the US, but I'm British, however I don't see a decline here really, given that I used to perform in Churches around Christmas time, there's still a sense of community in the local areas...so I can't really speak about the US side.

However, I do speak to an American Christian myself, and he seems to see fewer communities than I do...however, the US is probably 50 times bigger than the UK, so Churches are spread out more, and probably in fewer number (in addition to being more "newer"). Overall, I believe that the Christianity in the US is probably declining, but not to the extent that it'll die. Perhaps be overtaken by another religion, but never really to a point that it's considered a rarity to find Christians.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: seanieb on September 30, 2013, 06:54:03 pm
Holy shit, this thread. I can't believe some guy reported Barry, lol.

(http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/colbert-popcorn.gif)

There's a reason I usually discourage this type of thread, but at least you tried.

On a more serious note, I do believe that as we reach points in society where "shit gets serious" for lack of better terminology people have less patience for the ridiculosity, corruption, descrimination, xenophobia, homophobia and conservatism. In wartimes and in times of turmoil attendance rates at churches actually drop. There's a spike as everyone seeks guidance, but as these things drag on (see: WWII) it actually begins to put a damper on it (see: papal reaction to the Nazis; and early-2000s).

I think the information age is the final nail in the coffin for it. When we invented the printing press, we printed Bibles, they had a tool to spread information and that was the first thing done with them. The Internet has not lent itself to monastaries/churches/dieces with deep pockets. It is the least expensive medium yet. Everything before the Internet has been at a financial disadvantage to the truly free expression. If the churc has enough money to found the publishing company on Bibles, they're not going to take a risk on Charles Darwin. It may or may not be manipulation but it created an ecosystem that was eventually abused from the inside out (see: Catholic leadership).
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on September 30, 2013, 07:04:55 pm
Wait, lol, why is somebody reporting old posts made by an admin to an admin? There are three things wrong with that.

Anyway, "cursing" is allowed on the forums if it is not used as an insult. Saying, "for fucks sake, dude" has been covered two months ago. No more submitting moderation reports on old topics.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: max_cady on October 01, 2013, 02:40:25 am
@seanieb

If Anti-Christian propaganda is anything to go by, I do beleive that many people in modern times have the patience to be ridicilous or misinformed (maybe both).
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: pcm92 on October 05, 2013, 02:43:37 pm
Someone reported Barry? I guess he deserved it for criticising my religion and calling it b.s. I just don't understand why they waited almost two months to report him. Lol.
Title: Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
Post by: Barry the Nomad on October 05, 2013, 03:45:48 pm
Yeah, and I don't know why I didn't lock this b.s. topic two months back, but c'est la vie.