SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: CrazyT on February 26, 2014, 08:53:08 am
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Sup guys
So going around the net i've recently found stories about some lay offs happening in the last couple of days/week. Irational games(Biosock series) shrinking to only 15 people. Not sure how many people were working before, also not sure if it the studio is still called Irational games, but yeah.
Also I was surprised after visiting IGN yesterday to find out yesterday Sony Santa monica has also fired 50 people from a pretty incredible studio that has been making the great god of war games. Especially this case has got me a bit confused because sony has been doing pretty great lately so what gives?
Is the money being made off this massive industry not turning profits or am I missing something else?
I'm starting to get a bit worried but at the same time it may be for the best if the AAA industry collapses. Imho, selfishly this format has attracted a massive audience that has encouraged the type of game I really despise. Usually guns or doing task/chore gameplay is part of the best selling franchises and maybe these games just dont deserve to be sustained. Should these devs stop investing so much cash into hollywood blockbusters and start investing less into more substansial games?
Anyway apart from my views, is it possible that the publishers will have to change their ways in order for their companies to stay healthy? How drastic does this change have to be? How many more will follow because I really expect more will.
What do ya'll think about all this news. Is it a cause for alarm or isn't there much to worry about. Or like in my views, maybe for the best so that smaller devs like indie developers take over, grow and make big budget games with their way of thinking (if they don't lose it lol)
Edit: You know I wanna add some older news as well. Like how most japanese publishers have stopped creating big HD games. SEGA for example has been making a lot less games for consoles as well. I mean sensibly since consoles dont make out the biggest audience in their homeland. The releaselist just feels barren on consoles.
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I think the reason that Santa Monica was so big was because there where tons of people working there just helping other 1st parties get PS3 games out, since it was hard to code. I assume they didn't need to big of a team for PS4 games.
Who knows. Maybe they are losing money. If God of War can't bring in cash, what will companies like SEGA do?
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Apparently a Gamasutra writer had been tipped (http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=771797) that if Bioshock Infinite was not a MEGATON seller, Irrational was toast anyway.
The companies don't have to change their views, at least to one that benefits "The Art." Speaking outside of first party, as in Japan the West seems to be dominated by companies like EA and Take Two, perhaps Ubisoft and Warner Bros., with studios dying over time or being absorbed by publishers. The same in Japan - there are about six big Japanese companies: our lovely SEGA, Capcom, Bandai-Namco, Square-Enix, Tecmo-Koei, and Konami. Speaking about Japan, I've seen people comment that they were behind in development practices compared to the West, but I don't know much about that for sure.
If you continue to value high risk high reward projects and believe that they'll pan out for you, or if they have in the past (for you or someone else!), when things go wrong it's going to appear to make sense to lay off people, cancel new (perhaps ambitious and creative, perhaps soulless and derivative) projects. Smaller studios and projects are less of a risk than mid tier budget projects, erasing the question of whether or not its an established brand and what not. Intense stratification like we can observe here is bad in most any context I think.
There's also a budget problem (too many people working on Assassin's Creed games and Resident Evil 6!), but that budget problem is tied into the blockbuster appeal for some games. For something much smaller, you may want to look at Skullgirls (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keep-skullgirls-growing). It's also worth considering that offices for game companies are situated in places that cost a lot to live in.
Really, it seems like most people know better. Though you have to question how ill-gotten it is, the gaming industry is generally profitable; I've read once that it's more profitable to be in games than in movies. There's this NaughtyDog interview (http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=773273)calling for diversity (AAA, midtier, etc.) and this highly compelling interview segment with SEGA's Ethan Einhorn (http://8-4.jp/blog/?p=1888) saying consoles aren't dying and diversity is good. It's just a consistent management problem, with too many elements that are rotten, like QA being awful.
edit: it's worth noting that there are elements that are organic and elements that aren't. The mainstream gamer's tastes change. There isn't anything fundamentally offensive about Angry Birds existence as a game, it's just that few mobile developers will ever be anything like that. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-24-game-devs-ditching-mobile-in-favor-of-pc-console)
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I think this whole idea that projects need multiple million dollars, 150 developers, and stories to 'rival' Hollywood films is going to slowly die. I mean, it will be around, but I think more people are focused on the idea of gameplay, especially online.
Look at the latest PC hits, Minecraft just announced that they over 100 million users. Considering that the game was created by one dude (now its more) as a pet project and now has more users than Call of Duty wishes it had, at 1/10th the budget. Considering there is a deal now for a film on Minecraft: http://www.polygon.com/2014/2/27/5454788/minecraft-movie-warner-bros
I feel bad, I think games like Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia and so on would have done well in the indie market we have right now on PC. Creativity > Budget...
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I was equally as shocked as anyone after hearing Irrational Games went kaput and I was surprised that Sony were cutting down some people at Santa Monica. However after checking up on some facts and letting the shock leaving my system both more or less make perfect sense.
Irrational Game got shut down because it took 5 years for them to produce just a single game! Reading up on the development history of Bioshock Infinite it really was troubled right through out, infact there was so much cut content they could produce a completely separate game. Poor management killed the studio, not the game's performance.
Who knows. Maybe they are losing money. If God of War can't bring in cash, what will companies like SEGA do?
To be fair, God of War: Ascension was the worst selling title in the series. Did well in America but poorly in Europe which I'd put down to franchise fatigue. In anycase it's the new IP Santa Monica was working on, which brings me onto my second point;
Sony is currently in the process of a massive restructure and they are looking to shed 5,000 jobs for now to March 2014 so I'd say the people effected by this are just part of the bigger project (And the new IP probably was seen as too risky, or maybe they took on too many risks, to proceed)
That's not to say the AAA industry isn't flawed, it is. The problem was publishers like Electronic Arts and Ubisoft begun the graphical arms race to push mid-tier publishers out of the industry. They've successfully managed that but now they find themselves in the same hole they placed their competitors in as their budgets are spiraling out of control and no end in sight infact I would not be surprised to see Electronic Arts and Ubisoft (Along with Capcom and Square Enix) completely fall apart sometime in the current generation, just to point out how badly Electronic Arts has done;
2007: $76 million
2008: $-454 million
2009: $-1088 million
2010: $-677 million
2011: $-276 million
2012: $76 million
2013: -$308 million so far
So a pause for thought when people keep urging their favourite publishers to go all out and wow us graphically or with a multitude of new IPs, it's not safe in the current industry or advisable unless you stick to a strict budget.
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Sony is also cutting down a bunch of their stores in the US, too. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/27/reviewed-sony-retail-stores-close/5864519/)
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The future of gaming are "low-budgeted games" not these pay-per-view, abominations. Download pay, no way...... casual games ha ha ha ha, what am a woman ( or a french cigarette )? I mean look at all the colors, the details, the captivating story, it photogenic and so sibylline. The idea should be, if you pay for a download, you also pay a portion for a real game, and then later when you want the whole game, you can go to your local specialty shop, just not gamestop. They want to turn everything into lazy-blockbuster ( netflix ). A person does not have a powerful T2 connection for paying for something that has no resale value.
Even I have my Dreamcast/Saturn dream project....if I only knew where to start
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I'm at the point of my life where the hobby I used to love is starting to become less of a hobby and more of a chore.
Some quality games come out every year but I feel like the audience I belonged to is being pushed out (I'm nor "Hardcore" nor "Casual, I like my Mid-Tier games and played the occasional "big" Japanese game), I either have to adapt to the AAA or Indie game scene or just not bother as most Mid Tiered Companies have gone bankrupt and the likes of Namco, SEGA or even Konami aren't taking the risk with new IPs that may have a small following anymore. Nintendo included regarding pumping out Mario after Mario game and the occasional franchise of Kirby, DK or Smash.
I actually don't mind if the likes of Ubi, EA and Activision are cut down a notch due to the budgets. Actually, I think Ubisoft are at least trying other things like Child of Light (which I am interested in), so it's not all bad.
Another Market Crash is inevitable at this point (and not just to America, but WW), and those of us who still care to game will just move to PC in the foreseeable future.
Anyway, I'm less inclined to follow if or when Nintendo, Namco, SEGA and the like are either gone or vastly reduced to making Mobile Phone games. Nothing against having games on that platform, but I think I'm moving onto other hobbies any way now.
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Their is nothing wrong with you. Your just outside the spectrum now, like me. You long for those days or concurrent themes, only to know the truth.
It is a chore, because with SEGA you knew what you was getting into, un-like me with Nintendo, you have no abandon all hope, because it is possible for a full on SEGA comeback.
What is going to happen is that, the big investors,are going to see a cascading pattern, that will set things into motion. Do not worry, look around us, the world is becoming more and more like us, and all we have to do is wield it into the right direction. They know the future, and we know it too.
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I'm not an expert on the subject, but it was just something that struck me as odd. Thanks for some of your enlightening thoughts. I am thinking about how tomb raider didn't reach its goal back then, what about the current gen games? Will they cost even more?
Well whatever it is, seeing so much lost money being presented when you'd think things are going well is worrying. I hope things go well for my favourite devs out there at least. Poor SEGA has not been able to compete in the master arms race anymore in the west. I wonder if they're even gonna try this gen?
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SEGA is just trying to stay stable. In order for these companies to compete, against the big hitters, they have to make something, an event, or someway of delivering to the masses. Like take
Skyrim? Why was this game such a big deal? I will tell you why, because of "Oblivion", and because people were searching the land for J-RPG ( Action game elements ), and the graphics was mind blowing this game works. Nowadays we see games with 2d graphics taking that spot, and why? Because people do not care anymore about the 3d graphics as they did before.
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I think the above comments on Skyrim are right and wrong. Speaking as an outside observer/someone who doesn't play Elder Scrolls, I have routinely seen comments from enthusiasts of the series who say that the franchise became more casual/mechanically inferior over time. Perhaps starting with Oblivion. Passed that...I don't get it, it's not a JRPG, Demon Souls and Dark Souls were already out (the closest analogue to Skyrim, if I can hazard that guess). And I thought Skyrim was buggy?
I do think that people care a little less about graphics in the mainstream/it's not advertised as much because the advancements over time aren't all that significant for that audience.
edit: since i didn't think this merited a new post, I just want to add that I think that the gaming industry will benefit significantly from stronger economies across the world. cutbacks in discretionary spending, due to stunted wage growth/declining full time opportunities, are harming the gaming industry big time. It's a huge problem, one of the others being the consolidation of studios under larger publishers and the trimming down of active portfolios within active game companies in Japan
this is also interesting
http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/ (http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/)
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When I say, J-RPG, I mean to say an RPG with Action elements, or an Action game with RPG elements, like "Wonder Boy", "Adventure Island", and "Metroid" . I say J-RPG because that is the only way I can identity the genre. Yeah sure Skyrim is basically another 3d, DAD, but for many players they saw it as a way to play a Zelda game, but not on a Nintendo console. So lets not get into that.......
In short I consider every single action oriented adventure game to be a J-RPG, including "Super Mario", "Sonic", "Resident Evil", and "Metal Gear". I am kinda sick and tired of dividing videogame genre, I mean just because I am western does not mean I have to be like, this genre is for that kind of person, or rubbish like that, it just limit me.
The future of all PC games are mods, leaving consoles with nothing but fancy gaphics until it gets ported. About Skyrim, in today's world, that is like "Garys Mod", or stuff like that. They have tons of lame mods for this game, like if it is DOOM wad season or something. look at the original Tomb Raider, and the various things done to that, for the PSX versus the PC version. Even Quake and Sims, have theirs.
If it was the good days before the X-box, only a hand full of people would care about "Elder Scrolls" games.
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The future of gaming are "low-budgeted games" not these pay-per-view, abominations. Download pay, no way...... casual games ha ha ha ha, what am a woman ( or a french cigarette available at ecigfiend (http://www.ecigfiend.com))? I mean look at all the colors, the details, the captivating story, it photogenic and so sibylline. The idea should be, if you pay for a download, you also pay a portion for a real game, and then later when you want the whole game, you can go to your local specialty shop, just not gamestop. They want to turn everything into lazy-blockbuster ( netflix ). A person does not have a powerful T2 connection for paying for something that has no resale value.
Even I have my Dreamcast/Saturn dream project....if I only knew where to start
Well I do agree with you..Full version of game must not be available for free download..
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Exactly, no version of any game should be a download, under most circumstances. The way I see things, is that they want to get rid of games, and just suck our money away. Ten thousand years later, even if I was a stooge, I will still have my games from the Genesis/NES days to sell, trade, and own.
They are mine, as in my property. Ten thousand years, when all these companies forget about you, and decides your subscription is no longer ready, many games will be nothing but data, that is patch-less by normal means. The hard drives will not hold so many games, and most people will never get a chance to own them, once a company belly-flops.
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Microsoft is in trouble. They culling jobs across the board including their game divisions.
http://fortune.com/2014/07/15/microsoft-seen-planning-biggest-round-of-job-cuts-in-five-years/
Its never good to see one company do this especially if they are involved in creating game systems. But since Sony and Nintendo is also in trouble one must wonder if the trouble could engulf the games industry or if they will manage to get out of it with minimal losses..
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I wonder if this is going to be part of their change in direction. I have posted how I was very into the launch of the Xbox 360, besides the RROD issues and its Xbox Gold paywall (that Sony does now, better but still) it had a damn great future. I really liked that they actually focused on Japanese studios and funded niche games that I was into. Blue Dragon was the best game ever but fuck wasn't I super into seeing Akira Toriyama's art on a HD console. I was happy cuz it would hold me over for the NEXT Dragon Quest game... which surely would be in HD... right? LOL. Lost Odyssey was pretty great idea also.
I thought Microsoft had great potential and focused on hardcore gaming quite well. Then the Wii picked up steam and kicked everyones ass.... out of nowhere. All of a sudden Microsoft wasn't so much pro gamer but wanting to push Kinect and its fitness shit. It wasn't about showing their biggest games. Their great XBLA software with Treasure, SEGA and other companies. Nope: Now it was all Kinect Sports and shit. Obviously lots of people in Microsoft left around this time.
Flash forward to Xbox One and its shit launch, a year later their message has been reversed and now Phil Spencer is running the show. We saw a Platinum Games exclusive and Phantom Dust remake on stage? hows that? More Japanese games in the MS conference than Sony's for sure.
All of a sudden its all games. Of course you have to cut the rest of the limbs of the cancer....
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It makes me wonder what would have happened if Sega bit their pride and did a joint thing with Microsoft with the xbox. Sega handleing all the games (at least for japan)and Microsoft doing the hardware and distribution. This was an idea Kalinske was pushing when Sony and the PSX after Nintendo dropped them from their cd rom project. Its not like Sega japan didn't listen to him because they kinda did a joint thing with Microsoft of course with the DC in the form of windows and the logo being on the DC system, the only outside company to get that on a main Sega console(i don't count JVC since that was after the fact) Things might have been a little different for both of them where japan is concerned and maybe for Sega japan and the western market.
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Yeah I heard about the layoffs, that sucks for people working there. Worst layoff round since like the mid or late 2000's or something (5,800 I think) and now possibly another round of layoffs in the thousands.
Well speaking just about Microsoft, they are speaking out of both sides of their mouth with regards to Xbox. At one time there was this prospective CEO candidate (before Nadella was chosen) that was floating around the idea of axing Xbox and so that had people nervous a bit, but Nadella made this weird reassurance about the future of Xbox
"I also want to share some additional thoughts on Xbox and its importance to Microsoft. As a large company, I think it's critical to define the core, but it's important to make smart choices on other businesses in which we can have fundamental impact and success. The single biggest digital life category, measured in both time and money spent, in a mobile-first world is gaming. We are fortunate to have Xbox in our family to go after this opportunity with unique and bold innovation. Microsoft will continue to vigorously innovate and delight gamers with Xbox. Xbox is one of the most-revered consumer brands, with a growing online community and service, and a raving fan base. We also benefit from many technologies flowing from our gaming efforts into our productivity efforts – core graphics and NUI in Windows, speech recognition in Skype, camera technology in Kinect for Windows, Azure cloud enhancements for GPU simulation and many more. Bottom line, we will continue to innovate and grow our fan base with Xbox while also creating additive business value for Microsoft."
He's right in that the vast majority of $$$ made from tablets and smartphone apps come from gaming. But the weird thing is how he seems to view Xbox and mobile in proximity to each other. We are already at a point where there is Xbox One game and tablet connectivity features or bonuses but it seems like the Xbox brand itself was handled more as a peripheral just going by his word choice.
But yeah George touched on this idea that Microsoft was not great to work for and I've seen comments along these lines from different kinds of people over time. They found a winning formula with their online gaming focus (coupled with games that appealed to a demographic who already likes online gaming, e.g. Halo) but found an even winning-er formula with the uber-commercialization of Xbox Live. like the dashboard.
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Even Nintendo is a hard deal to work with it..I have a friend who is working in the CM/publicity side of the industry and he told me that the most lucrative place to work is EA...he was not kidding.
Why? Because is much simple and the people from an especific region is the one in charge.
In Nintendo, all the directives are coming from Japan with no exception.
So, keep an eye open if you wanna work for any gaming company.
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They found a winning formula with their online gaming focus (coupled with games
that appealed to a demographic who already likes online gaming, e.g. Halo) but
found an even winning-er formula with the uber-commercialization of Xbox Live.
like the dashboard.
Concepts they ripped off from Sega. When you do things like that its only so long that you can do it until you can't rip them off anymore and have run out of ideas. XBO just didn't have anything to offer in my opinion..neither does any of the other two..like i said the DCa may be dead but its ideas are being used today without the originality that that machine had..
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http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/17/5912893/microsoft-closing-xbox-entertainment-studios-xbox-originals (http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/17/5912893/microsoft-closing-xbox-entertainment-studios-xbox-originals)
up to 18k laid off over the next 12 months
that Halo thing is apparently still going
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Yeah..if things were going well i'm sure they wouldn't close something down something they spent so much to set up...
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http://www.serkantoto.com/2014/07/30/japan-gaming-market-size-statistics/
So 'mobile gaming' is now bigger than hardware and software combined in Japan.
Consoles are fucked, Japan wants to play Mobage instead or something etc etc.
I wonder if this is really a bad thing? I mean, I don't see EVERYONE moving to mobile games. I imagine there will still be people left who want to make actual video games instead of F2P cash-grabs or try to 'win the lottery' by making the millionth 'Flappy Bird' clone.
If all the shit-tier developers close up or run to mobile games, even if consoles end up dead then PC will still be a thing. Will we see 'real games' move to PC or have more elaborate control schemes for mobile phones/tablets instead?
I wonder if this isn't a good thing overall, it'll mean less games, but I feel that the first games to die will be the shovelware and shit we don't want anyway. All the casual stuff will move to phones, as well as the cheap cash-grabs, leaving dedicated gaming hardware/PC games with games that actually want to be (GOD FORBID) games.
And if not, I have a backlog that's going to last me the rest of my life anyway thanks to Steam Sales, GOG and various old games on my old consoles.
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The amount of Retro games is infinite XD, lucky for us we have games for a lot of lives there.
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Its been like that in Japan for years now really, MM.
But japan is a different kettle of fish..over thre its more advanced and RPG titles are pushing the sales of mobile games not retro titles or angry bird clones.
But its now clear that the last bastion of consoles is the west and they're starting to decline to. Time will see if that continues...
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Xbox One is not really that great. PS4 has a lot more games already. I think PS4 will win this console war. At least in the U.S. Japan is probably the same way because Sony is more Japanese based than Microsoft.
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Mobile gaming is stupid. In Japan they had tons of mbile games I still want to play. But I have to find other ways to play. It is frustrating already. Their is at least twenty games that I could see actually owning and stuff.
I just give up on mobile/cell phone games before I start.
I can't believe the idiot who would actually purchase such games at all. It is the worst thing you could do to a player. For Japan it is okay because they have uncensored jaw dropping graphics since forever. While in the west all we have is surealistic garbage ( no offense; but it is sure annoying in comparison and contrast. Something I had to get over ). and to make things worst; chances are they are outsourcing programming to the east. They outsource art to the east as well.
I do not want to deal with this business in this manor. Their is a limit.
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Jusr recently I see all the primarly results of Titanfall, Watch_Dogs and Destiny, you know, the ultra-hyped console games of this last years.
Seems to be that all are not perfect releases at all.
Titanfall now doesn't attract the "dudes" like COD and sales are decreasing tremendously.
Watch_Dogs was a controversial subject because of its graphics and the PC version "hidden feature".
Destiny has the lowest Metacritic score of the three right now and many people are waiting for a possible PC version..
In the short term, this isn't a big deal at all..but in the long term, it could be something to worry because this games supposely would be becoming the trend for this generation of consoles...I'm afraid something need to appeared..
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Lucky for me i am not interested in those franchises at all XD, but i agree that all these games came out with some problems...
At this point i dont know what to think anymore about anything, as far as i can see i have the felling that the videogames will faal out in a hole not too much ahead in the future.
I think you are right Nirmugen but what do you think can appeared in the future?
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The principal problem with those games is that they are marketed as a "game changer in their respective genres" but they fall from apart that concept because in reality, the only next-gen thing was the graphics and the mix with very common mechanics from last generation like parkour, Multiplayer system and sandbox style of gameplay.
That's good for a game but if this is the first batch of AAA titles that supposely utilize an important part of the full potential of a next-gen console..what is going to happen next that make me buy that console instead of upgrading my PC or buy a new one? That's the thing I'm afraid is going to happen.
Now PS4 in the West is selling really well but the games doesn't match that ratio of hardware. "The PS Brand is selling well, the games match stable sales but not hits" remember this phrase for the long term because even the President of Sony is worrying with this situation. The hardware itself makes profits but how long is this gonna work? Nothing last forever...
Also, just look a that rumor about Microsoft is going to buy Mojang and the reason is because they want to improve their Windows Phone brand (Remember that Microsoft co-published and marketed Minecraft for 360, so that other reason could be discarted).
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Here is a few reasons big publishers will be failing if they don't get their shit together.
1. Companies expecting games to sell 10 million+ and if they don't they are failures: See Square-Enix.
2. The over hyping press conferences: The biggest offender IMO is Ubisoft and Activision.
3. Taking content away for future DLC
4. Pre-order DLC content. What you want to wait for a review before you get a game? Let's bribe you! I actually liked this when they gave out PHYSICAL goods, but DLC? Shady as hell.: Everyone does this shit.
Things get worse when critics also aren't doing their job. See how Titanfall got great reviews even tho the game didn't have a single player story, bad customization, and lacking in content.
I think companies need to look at what indies are doing and try smaller risk projects that are just... you know... fun to play? I'm tired of every game needing to be a online shooter with a grim dark story that is completely crap. If you are going to 'hype the story' at least write decent characters that feel human and not like it was written by Samurai Cops writer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvni9KbZfoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvni9KbZfoo)
Seriously tired of 'HD games are expensive' so we have to 'pay the cost' by buying DLC and shit, all that is horse shit. They have been doing PC gaming in HD for years before console gaming. You know why your games costs so much? Because you guys are paying 100 people who you mismanage to make a game, overpay for celebrity voice actors and spend a huge chunk on overhyping a game you never finished because the publisher wants it out by fall.
I don't know how Square-Enix could sell 1.5 million units of Sleeping Dogs and not make a profit. You know what they said? It should have sold 2 to 2.5 million because of the metacritic ratings... wtf. Yet SEGA can keep Yakuza alive for almost a decade (yes the franchise is turning 10 in 2015).
Its time for smaller teams that deliver good games at a great price. Honestly shocked that a publisher hasn't followed indies success. Look, Minecraft sold 50 million units and only had a couple of developers...
Surely your brilliant developers can make a fun and engaging game that doesn't need hours of shitty dialogue and cutscenes. I mean, Nintendo sold 3 million units in a month of Mario Kart, you think people bought it for the engaging story?
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Everyone is still chasing the dragon of 'Cowadoody audience' and multi-million sellers, when the market seems to be shrinking pretty quickly, has been for years.
I think people should make a return to more targeted, lower budget games. Real gamers and fans of a genre will play a lower budget game if it's good, and it'll be able to turn a profit without being the biggest media release in history.
There will still be massive releases that people will flock to, but titles that can potentially do that are small and I don't think Publishers should all be looking to play in that high risk high reward space.