SEGAbits Forums
Everything SEGA => Classic SEGA Discussion => Topic started by: Barry the Nomad on August 13, 2014, 09:45:44 am
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In case you don't venture out to the main page, it's 32X Month at SEGAbits. We have several features lined up on the front page, so check it daily for new content! Alright, front page plugging over.
Anyway, thought I'd let the 32X talk spill into the forums by way of a discussion point that has been on my mind for a while now. As we all know, the 32X is not a beloved piece of hardware. It was a commercial failure, the library is small, and according to some it is a headache to connect to the Genesis.
But is is a bad video game console/add-on? What is your criteria for a truly bad console?
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For me, the 32X is not a bad console nor would it make my list of worst hardware of all time. For starters, it's not a console, it's an add-on. To own a 32X means you own a Genesis, so while the 32X library may be small, you are not limited to the 40 titles. If anything, the 32X expands the Genesis library available to the add-on's owners by 40. I'd much prefer to have a 32X than to not have one, as I prefer to have access to After Burner, Doom, Chaotix, Kolibri, Metal Head, MKII, Shadow Squadron, Space Harrier, SW Arcade, Tempo, Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing, and Zaxxon's Motherbase. Then there are the enhanced Genesis titles that, while not AAA by any means, are preferred on the 32X thanks to improved sound and visuals.
I have never experienced hardware failure with the 32X personally, so I deem it a solid piece of tech. Far more dependable than the SEGA CD in that regard. Sure it was a commercial failure, but it isn't 1994 anymore. As a piece of retro hardware I think the 32X is worth owning and is not a bad console/add-on at all. It has a fair share of quality must play titles, and it functions well.
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If we want to talk BAD game consoles, I'd point to the Jaguar CD, as it is notorious for hardware failure and has a library that is less than half the size of the 32X library. I'd also point to the Philips CD-i as a bad game console, if only because the thing is more of an education/entertainment machine than a game machine. They tried to go the game route, but failed most of the time. CD-i for the educational and non-gaming entertainment content? It's actually pretty cool. But for games, it is awful.
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I believe what makes a console "bad" is likely a combination of several things. I'll touch on them each in their own regards.
Developer Support:
I still hear people talk about how horrible the Dreamcast was due to the fact there were no EA games and they had no support from the company. While Sega fixed this impressively by creating the 2K series, I don't believe it's their downfall. But I'm seeing this now with the Playstation Vita. It's by no means a horrible console, but because many developers are holding off from putting games on the system, it's not exactly helping it at all. This would be a strong case for the 32X. There weren't a lot of developers putting games onto the system because they were afraid they wouldn't make any cash on it, and rightly so from a business stand point.
Lesser Known IPs:
People all know the Call of Duties, the Halos, Marios and Zeldas. They're the big names that pull a lot of people in. Some people pass over games they've never heard of and don't take risks buying lesser known games such as Yakuza, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia. It isn't until years later of hearing people clamor over these games that people look back and realize they missed out on these games. By then it's too late, the sales are missed, and money wasn't truly made on those games, thus cutting into the life of the system. Not that lesser known IPs are a bad thing at all, but it's the truth that many people will pass up on these games. I remember talking to a used game seller about how some older games are so expensive now, like Mars Matrix (A game I'm still trying to hunt down) and he recalled that when the game was released, no one wanted it and he couldn't get rid of the game and remembers marking it down to even $15 new when the Dreamcast was discontinued, and now the game goes for around $80. The game simply sold poorly back then. This sort of thing though continues on even modern consoles.
Not Knowing What the System Is or Who it's For:
I hate this about modern consoles... They're now more than just for games. They control your TV, are DVRs, play movies, stream, have a bunch of applications, can make video calls.. Consoles in the '90's were simple. They played games, and that it. Some catered to kids, some catered to adults. Nintendo struggled with the GameCube to define who their target audience was and for awhile, the system had troubles finding itself and who it was meant for. The PS3, when it was released, was the cheapest BluRay player on the market at the beginning, and I know a lot of people who simply bought the system for that and never used it to play games. Not to mention you had companies like Best Buy giving the console away for free if you bought at shiny new LCD TV. Now it seems like with the new consoles, gaming is more like a 2nd thought than the first thing it really does. Who do you target that to then?
Uneducated People and Bad Marketing:
This sorta would tie into an Add-on topic. People didn't know exactly what the 32X did for the Genesis, and often passed on it because of that. Just as how the Xbox 360 got the HD-DVD Add-on. The 360 had no BluRay support, the PS3 did, so they went with HD-DVD. It "failed" because...again, no support from other companies. Even though HD-DVD, in some sense (and I'm not going to argue about this..) it had better picture quality than BluRay. Sure, it had its faults as well, but BluRay was more widespread and people were more aware of it, because it was marketed more. Marketing, Marketing, Marketing. Don't know how much I can stress that.. Sega hardly markets their products anymore. They rushed the Saturn out to try and beat out Playstation. Nintendo did the same with some of their systems. They tried to gain back market share, push it out there, but then had nothing to support it. The Vita is going down because Sony's hardly talking about it. Developers aren't talking about it. Gamers aren't talking about it. Why invest in a machine that's got a certain price tag and no one can justify investing in it when they hardly understand it or know why they should have one?
Poor Build Quality:
if it breaks after awhile and does last, or has some serious design flaws (Red Ring of Death, anyone?) or just burns out, that would justify it being a truly horrible system. If it lasts for 10+ years without a hiccup, then it's a perfectly good investment. Nothing lasts forever, that's for sure, but you'd expect a product to last more than a few months, or even weeks, and it just gives up on you.
Most of these things can be fixed (and some have for certain products..) with updated released, or better quality control.
So, yeah.. I feel like I'm rambling now and I don't want my topics to fall off point... So, I'll stop myself there and let others chime in.
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I think the 32X is a cool add-on. That said, I have opted not to get one and collect for it because it does seem like a bit of a hassle to hook it up. I didn't realize until I started looking into it that it's intended to be pretty much a permanent addition to the Genesis. Even if it's technically not permanent, it's more involved than just popping it in and out of the cartridge slot like a cartridge. Even so, I think it's a cool device and it's really only with the 20/20 vision of hindsight that people can say it was a failure. At the time, it was a desirable concept to be able to expand the capabilities of an existing console.
I would regard the Atari 5200 as more of a bad situation. Actually the console itself is impressively powerful for its time. It's just that it was unfortunately undermined by some very bad controller design... specifically awkward button placement and an analog stick that does not self-center. The controllers alone are enough of a problem for most collectors to steer clear of the console entirely.
But overall I would hesitate to say that any console is just outright bad. Each one seems to have at least a handful of must-play games.
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I would consider a bad console as a machine with a small or poor library or a machine prone to failure (eg... The first 360 consoles due to their hardware failures or the Apple Pippin due to it not having any games). As far as the 32x is concerned; yeah it's an add-on not a console, but as an add-on it wasn't that great it was expensive and it's quality games where just too few to warrant the purchase.
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The 32x is only bad because of the limited support it ended up getting. There was no full commitment and we lost a lot of potential good games like RATCHET AND BOLT and X MEN 32X. It really could have helped bridge the transition between the genesis and the saturn. My thing was that the 32x had to be of a reasonable price and not cost the same as a new console. If Sega had priced it cheaply back then, i think it would have helped sales a lot. It did had initial strong third party support before it faded away after the system didn't break new sales in its other yearly quarters....
I really wanted to play ALIENS Vs Predator that Capcom was going to release for it as one of their 32X game projects since the arcade game was quite awesome.
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I really wanted to see that Castlevania 32x Game that most fans dubbed it "The Bloodletting" which was going to be the sequel to Castlevania: Chi No Rondo (Rondo of Blood) It look like it was going to be awesome.. :(
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I think there's two angles on this. Firstly, it was a horrible idea. To release the 32X when you were also openly hyping the Saturn was just going to confuse the market. Also once it failed, the decision to drop it had massive repercussions for both the Saturn and the Dreamcast. The fact that it became the object lesson in the Gaming industry of what never to do with a project launch speaks volumes.
Besides that, if you just look at it in a vacuum, it was ok. It had some good games like Space Harrier, Knuckles Chaotix and Virtua Racing Deluxe but it's missing that one game, that killer app, to really carry it as a device worth having.
Is it Virtual Boy bad? No. Is it good? Absolutely not.
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What makes a bad hardware game system??
Well I had a bad criteria.
1. When your other console can do what this can do. Take SNES = Virtual Boy = 3ds
2. You make a Sequel that does not promote your add-on = SEGA CD = Sonic 2 = Senn + Nanka
3. Your HD-DVD is better then Blu-Ray but does not allow pornography
4. When your consumer base is adults mostly and are not children = TV-Toy = Nintendo
5. Your console have a red-ring of death; or just blue-light of death = Stupid
6. When you have to register your name and personal information to play online and not Credit Card
7. When you install spyware in the software or hardware.
8. When you make an MMORPG that can not play off-line without a subscription.
9. When you can't insert anything at all. ( th aaaayyuuuggggaaaa )
10. When the game system starts fining you or filming your personal business.
11. When it has a battery inside that invades your privacy.
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Someone above called it an Add-on, and I agree. I was never comfortable with calling it a console. It's like calling the Power Base Converter a console. If it requires the Genesis to run, I'd call it an add-on, like the SEGA CD. The combination of the Genesis and SEGA CD make the Genesis the best 16 bit console ever.
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The combination of the Genesis and SEGA CD make the Genesis the best 16 bit console ever.
I agree completely with this. However the 32x adds almost nothing to that pair.
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I agree completely with this. However the 32x adds almost nothing to that pair.
Disagree. Near perfect ports of Space Harrier, After Burner, Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing are something. As are the many exclusives that never saw rerelease elsewhere. a Genesis with a 32X is better than a Genesis without one.
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I think it was a terrible idea. Even at the time I remember them talking about the 32x and Saturn launching and it making no sense to get a 32x. Then the decision to abandon it hurt Sega so massively in the eyes of publishers, retailers and customers that it fatally hurt the Saturn and the Dreamcast, leading in part to the 3rd party developer we have now. I like my 32x but cannot defend it as a product. Once they decided to go with the Saturn, they should have killed the 32x.
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Retrogamer had an article of the 32x a few months back.
Turns out that SEGA decided to cancel a few projects themselves, which gave some bad blood between them and a select few developers who were getting established, which may or may not have later been a part of an EA team.
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Disagree. Near perfect ports of Space Harrier, After Burner, Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing are something. As are the many exclusives that never saw rerelease elsewhere. a Genesis with a 32X is better than a Genesis without one.
I see the 32X as a necessary addon to play these and other select "premium" games in arcade quality. Under that light, the 32X is decent.
That being said, it's nowhere near as worthy of a purchase as a Sega CD. A MegaDrive+SegaCD combo is a monster gaming system with incredible games and high fidelity 90's audio. A timecapsule of the greatness of another era.
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I really like my 32x, Virtua Racing Deluxe is great. However, in hindsight, it muddied the waters at a time when Sega should have had everything focused on the Saturn. Granted that was far from the only mistake Sega made in the launch of the Saturn, but it was a significant problem in that Sega got the reputation among publishers that they abandon their systems, so why release for them.
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In all truth, ever since AVGN did his 32X skit, it gets a massive amount of undeserved bad rap.
Yes, it was a failed add-on. But so was the Famicom Disk, the N64DD, the Kinect, and other mechanisms made to prolong a console's lifespan.
In the end did it matter? Well..a bit, not as much as people on the internet make it. "SEGA killed themselves with the add-ons". No! Sega commited suicide the moment they jump started the Saturn with no games and an expensive price point. Was mortally wounded when the PS1 came out with dev-friendly codding tools. And finished off when EA abandoned Sega (this was in 99 mind you. Not when the 32X came out) and Sony announced the PS2.
So overall, the 32X allowed some cool games to come to life, but was pretty expensive and sold poorly. That's it.
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In my opinion, the 32X simply came out too late to have the impact it was meant to. If it had been even one year earlier, the improvements it offered over the current 16 bit generation would have been so much more impressive. And while I don't agree that the 32X is as terrible as many people have made it out to be, it's quite evident that it was not a good console. There aren't any "must play" titles that offer gamers an experience they can't get anywhere else. Even the Sega CD had some excellent 2D shooters, Snatcher, and Lunar that alone were enough to make the console worth owning. Had the 32X been around longer, maybe it would have had some similarly great titles.
Ultimately, to answer the titular question of this thread, I think a bad console is one which the developers themselves do not support or have confidence in. Sega is infamous for this unfortunately: changing, delaying, or cancelling projects seemingly at a whim. If 3rd party support were the only reason, then we wouldn't have seen the N64 be as successful as it was after Nintendo lost so many developers to Sony. After the Genesis, Sega was simply too desperate and, at the same time, not confident enough to stick with their decisions.
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In all truth, ever since AVGN did his 32X skit, it gets a massive amount of undeserved bad rap.
Yes, it was a failed add-on. But so was the Famicom Disk, the N64DD, the Kinect, and other mechanisms made to prolong a console's lifespan.
In the end did it matter? Well..a bit, not as much as people on the internet make it. "SEGA killed themselves with the add-ons". No! Sega commited suicide the moment they jump started the Saturn with no games and an expensive price point. Was mortally wounded when the PS1 came out with dev-friendly codding tools. And finished off when EA abandoned Sega (this was in 99 mind you. Not when the 32X came out) and Sony announced the PS2.
So overall, the 32X allowed some cool games to come to life, but was pretty expensive and sold poorly. That's it.
The saturn had no possible way of succeeding. Or actually im not sure. It seems they rushed the console when sony anounced itself into the console business. When you think about it, SEGA was really cornered by sony. Sony got their playstation brand so right from the get go. Merciless taking marketshare from everyone and dominating like no other. They pretty much killed SEGA.
On topic. SEGA made some really bad hardware but they're games were always great. In hindsight you could say they should have skipped that gen and go straight to dreamcast. A lot of wasted resources were put into 32x, cd and saturn. Imagine if all the shining games came on dreamcast. Imagine the panzer dragoon games including saga all in higher res. But Then again that one got screwed by piracy as well. What a disaster it all was
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On topic. SEGA made some really bad hardware but they're games were always great. In hindsight you could say they should have skipped that gen and go straight to dreamcast. A lot of wasted resources were put into 32x, cd and saturn. Imagine if all the shining games came on dreamcast. Imagine the panzer dragoon games including saga all in higher res. But Then again that one got screwed by piracy as well. What a disaster it all was
I wouldn't say wasted resources. The games you mentioned - Panzer Dragoon series, Shining Force III - were some of the most optimized titles on the Saturn. And believe it or not, the Saturn had many ports that were far superior to PS1 equivalents; 2D fighters being the most obvious example. What killed off the Saturn had nothing to do with how they designed the hardware, it was largely a flaw in marketing decisions. The huge discrepancy between its performance in Japan and in the west is enough evidence of that.
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I wouldn't say wasted resources. The games you mentioned - Panzer Dragoon series, Shining Force III - were some of the most optimized titles on the Saturn. And believe it or not, the Saturn had many ports that were far superior to PS1 equivalents; 2D fighters being the most obvious example. What killed off the Saturn had nothing to do with how they designed the hardware, it was largely a flaw in marketing decisions. The huge discrepancy between its performance in Japan and in the west is enough evidence of that.
I think the Saturn could output great things. When I say wasted resource I mean the whole picture. Saturn didnt do well and at the same time it is said(not too sure about this one) that it was difficult to develop for. For such amazing developers at the time I think theyd be more satisfied if they got something more fulfilling to work with. Sony was already gonna take the generation. It was either rushing it or having it come out late. I really think the saturn was rushed because of the unexpected release date. Maybe im wrong in this though. In this scenarion i would have rather had them decide to go straight to dreamcast. Basically like they did with shenmue. But yeah hindsight and all. It makes sense that no one would have thought about that in their position at the time.
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That for me was Sega in general and SOJ in particular at the height of their stupidity.
With the Mega Drive still selling respectably on many parts of the world, a 32 bit plugin to extend the life for another 3 years or so is quite logical. However SOJ's decision to develop both the 32X and Saturn simultaneously was a mistake, as was their decision to push the launch of the Saturn forward, to drop the 32x a year after it's launch, the price of both, along with the marketing and how they handled third party publishers.
In hindsight, the smart move would be to launch the 32X worldwide for a cheap price ($100 or so) along with releasing the Neptune for $200 and the Mega CD 2 you could skip the Saturn and build the cash reserves for a Dreamcast launch.
Edit: The smartest move though would be for SOJ to stop screwing with Tom Kalinske, but they were never going to do that.
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With the Mega Drive still selling respectably on many parts of the world, a 32 bit plugin to extend the life for another 3 years or so is quite logical.
You leave the 3rd parties take up the slack , just like SONY and MS are doing did with the 360 and PS3 and
However SOJ's decision to develop both the 32X and Saturn simultaneously was a mistake, as was their decision to push the launch of the Saturn forward, to drop the 32x a year after it's launch, the price of both, along with the marketing and how they handled third party publishers.
SOJ had no real interest at all in the 32X - They wanted to drop the Mega Drive as soon as they could . SEGA America pushed for the 32X hard . When it was clear the Jag and 3DO was no threat and the Saturn was coming to Japan in 1994 was the time the 32X should have been dropped
The smartest move though would be for SOJ to stop screwing with Tom Kalinske, but they were never going to do that
No they listen to Tom: that was the mistake, as was no real Sonic game ready early in for the Saturn.
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I think part of Sega's reasoning, at least SOA, was that they wanted to develop a multi-tiered system based on different consumer's budgets. They wanted an ecosystem with low budget offerings (SMS and Game Gear), medium budget options (Genesis, plus optional Sega CD and 32X upgrades) and a high budget option (Saturn). In hindsight, we can see they spread themselves too thin and that it's probably not a business plan that the market can support. But at the time I can see how it seemed like it could be a viable strategy.
If I was to point out a 'mistake' made by Sega, I personally think it was the insistence on trying to remain #1 continuously. It's really not necessary to always have the top selling console, as long as you can maintain a decent slice of the pie. I think the desire to be #1 caused a certain degree of decisions being made too quickly. They could have settled for second place against the PS1 and taken more time to develop a more cohesive and conservative strategy. But I think most of long-term Sega fans are not really fans of conservatism in game design and business management. We admire the craziness and risk-taking and exalt in the highs that that approach can create. But with the highs come lows as well.
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I think part of Sega's reasoning, at least SOA, was that they wanted to develop a multi-tiered system based on different consumer's budgets. They wanted an ecosystem with low budget offerings (SMS and Game Gear), medium budget options (Genesis, plus optional Sega CD and 32X upgrades) and a high budget option (Saturn).
But you then split the user base and retail and development support . It was a nice idea but it came out at the wrong time
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The 32X is a bad console because it's what signalled the end for SEGA. Consumers would have forgiven them the Mega CD because that system actually had some good games for it, but the 32X was the first major nail in SEGA's coffin because it suggested that SEGA had no respect for their consumers. The 32X had nothing worth playing and it divided consumers after they saw new console after new console from SEGA within months of each other. The 32X killed the Saturn, which was the superior console, because it took SEGA's internal resources away from that system, which was only developed as a stop gap system anyway, and damaged the company's reputation. Although the 32X was a cool idea and good from a technical perspective for what it did to the Mega Drive, it ultimately was a poor business decision and killed SEGA.
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The 32X is a bad console because it's what signalled the end for SEGA. Consumers would have forgiven them the Mega CD because that system actually had some good games for it, but the 32X was the first major nail in SEGA's coffin because it suggested that SEGA had no respect for their consumers. The 32X had nothing worth playing and it divided consumers after they saw new console after new console from SEGA within months of each other. The 32X killed the Saturn, which was the superior console, because it took SEGA's internal resources away from that system, which was only developed as a stop gap system anyway, and damaged the company's reputation. Although the 32X was a cool idea and good from a technical perspective for what it did to the Mega Drive, it ultimately was a poor business decision and killed SEGA.
Welcome to the forums!
I don't agree with you. But do have fun!
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He's got SOME valid points, but to suggest that the 32X killed Sega, is a bit of a stretch.
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The 32X has been labled one of the causes Sega went bankrupt RETROACTIVELY.
When the Dreamcast came out was anyone worried about what happaned to the 32X? No.
So in reality, it did some damage at the time, but by the time Sega came out with the Dreamcast it was completely dissipated.
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SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money.
Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end).
I guess we can always point in hindsight, but this is one of the many times that SEGA has hurt itself because it was so busy fighting itself.
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SEGA shouldn't have done the 32X, continued selling Genesis/Mega Drives and also should have supported Saturn the correct way. Sure, it would have been hard to sell the issue is that SOA didn't even try. They literally made the console worse by holding back games, not advertising right and making sloppy decisions that in the end cost the company more money.
That would have been the best way .
Its funny, its the one console of SEGA's that actually sold well in Japan. I know people will point and say "Developers didn't like it due to programming", but honestly if SEGA Japan and America actually reached out to developers, tried to make frameworks that would have made coding for the console easier and supported some with advertising money (aka: You make this exclusive to a SEGA console and we will run ads for the game with the 'only on Sega Saturn' at the end)
The Saturn being hard to program for was just a cop out used by developers for its lack of marketshare (that was the real reason for poor support) . Its not like the PS2, N64 or PS3 had any better or easier development environment in fact Treasure even said the N64 was harder to developer for than the Saturn . That said the 1st tools should have been better and SEGA should have made the Saturn to be able to handle 3D alpha/transaperent effects
The 32X has been labled one of the causes Sega went bankrupt RETROACTIVEL
You see people need to think , that's rubbish . The 32X and Saturn was developed in 1992 to 1994 and in those years SEGA weren't posting losses or anywhere near . It true to say that both the Saturn and 32X cost SEGA marketshare - that really hurt SEGA and selling the DC at a huge lost for each unit almost made SEGA go to the wall
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