Another Incoherent discussion

[cube_b3]

I am going to fight the urge to say anything wrong to you right now... So I expect you to work with me as well:

While I have no real reason to hate Mad-World, probably a great game lies in their, but I've sold my Wii now, so whatever.

HOTD:OK & Bayonetta are quite exploitative and revolve around selling sexuality (if not completely, then to an extent) and ideologically I have a problem with it even if it was under the Capcom label, the game would be very exploitative, Bayonetta would remind me of Sarah Palin :S and would sound like a very trashy women, "do you want to touch me?" That is the first thing the world heard from her, and my answer was firmly NO FUCKING WAY!

However I may have been less hateful towards it under the Capcom label and would've tried to overlook the exploitative design choices and appreciate the games story (which i've heard was surprisingly good).

From a Sega standpoint I expected more of Hibana or anything from Noriyoshi Oba San rather then DMC Man's Bayonetta as a true blue fan it hurts me greatly to see money and resources going on publishing rather then belief in your own inhouse workers, and several Sega employees left and joined Capcom, Namco (or independent) because of the downsizing.

It doesn't deserve a devil's frown, Bayonetta is successful as much as I hate the fact that Sega is working with PG and other companies, the inhouse teams didn't make the commercial cut Sega needed, so Sega won't stop working with them and even if they did, Sega wouldn't give Noriyoshi another chance just like they won't give Yu Suzuki another chance.

Therefore I have to make a stand, and I hope more Sega fans can as well Support the true blue Sega dying along with the Arcades, most of the AM games don't make it beyond Japanese Arcades and even if they make it to International Arcades they are never going to be near most of us.

For once, try to understand my side.... we are all hard core Sega lovers here, and have made more contributions to Sega then on our needs, I have skipped meals to save money for Sega (thankfully I have a job no, so I don't do such extreme things) and I am entitled to stand for, what I believe in.

I want more in house games, and less published games.
I want more Oba, Kodama, Suzuki and less Nagoshi.

Do you realise how alone I am in that regard, AM2 hasn't had a console release for almost 5 years now.

Oba and Kodama are dead for all intents and purposes, I spend my time researching about their works and making articles about them on Wikipedia so they are not forgotten as a part of Videogame history, rather then playing a new game by them, the part of Sega that is dearest to me realistically speaking is dead and may never come back, and writing/acknowledging this isn't the happiest moment of my life.

[crackdude]

Though I never understood what's the problem with being bias.. I mean, if I love Sega and hate Capcom why should I have to try and like Capcom games?

I just bought some Street Fighter games cause the other day I played some SF4 against some random kid in a Game store and like it. That's it..
But I bought some Virtua Fighter games just cause they're from Yu Suzuki and learned how to have fun with them later.

So yeah, I guess I'm kinda biased. All my friends know that. And that's how sometimes I manage to get some really great underrated games.

[Sega Uranus]

HOTD:OK & Bayonetta are quite exploitative and revolve around selling sexuality (if not completely, then to an extent)

This is not true at all. Any sexual themes in Overkill were based on jokes and if you played Bayonetta for a second you would realize it is not about showing off her body or some nonsense like that, but about female empowerment. Bayonetta knows she is cooler than everyone in the game and she is going to constantly prove it. It is one of the only games to ever exist that has an extremely powerful and smart female lead like this, and you should respect that.

The Capcom thing does not even really make sense either, you should play games because they are potentially fun, not because they are not published by the company that spawned half of the people there? That is like not playing a game by Treasure because it is not published by Konami. Makes no damn sense.

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Moving on...

Of course there is brand loyalty. I cannot honestly say I would have tried games like Viking without SEGA have being related to this somehow, though I am glad I did as I really love it.

I think most of it comes from just how enthralled I have been with SEGA's technical achievements. While every developer out there was making basic shmups for the arcades back in 1985, SEGA has Space Harrier with some of the longest songs in games ever, the highest quality sound, graphics that were not topped for years and then it was because SEGA did it themselves! Something like Shenmue has been out for ten years, but there are still heavy budget releases that do not have many of the features and details it did. I can give constant examples of this kind of stuff, but most of you should know how ahead of their times SEGA has always been.

It is really not just that, but they always seem to be trying out new concepts and ideas. If you look at a developer like Nintendo - Much of their products are extremely similar and have basic play concepts. Nothing against Nintendo, I do love them, but it is a pretty obvious comparison to me.

I grew up with a Commodore 64, and while I liked it a lot, nothing really caught my attention too much, once I got a Genesis everything changed. At first I was pretty much only playing Sonic the Hedgehog games, but I did start to enjoy titles like SEGA's Disney games, Streets of Rage and Shinobi because of their similar styles.

I got into the original PlayStation next (yes, long gap - My family was against videogames) and while I certainly liked Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon and the like, they just did not compare to what I could still play on the Genesis (I actually got yelled at for ignoring the expensive one a few times!). I also started to realize that the reason the Disney games on PlayStation were usually so shitty was because they were not done by the same people as the Illusion series and the like.

I was never really interested in sports or vehicles as a kid, so imagine my shock when I realized stuff like OutRun and Virtua Tennis actually kicked tons of ass! I would try out other sports games, but it was never the same. I would also try out stuff like Phantasy Star Online just because I wanted to play the demo of Sonic Adventure 2 and kept being amazed constantly by their products. Seriously pretty much every Dreamcast demo disc I got I was absolutely astounded by the quality of each title, while I would go back to PlayStation with something like Gex, Resident Evil, Klonoa and Twisted Metal and just not understand why people cared about these anywhere as much.

Of course I hate tons of SEGA games too, and not all of my favorite games and franchises are from the company either. When it just comes down to everything I just am a fan of the medium in general and am willing to try anything. I feel I am fair when it comes to many of my opinions on the games I get to play.







tl;dr segas a pretty cool guy eh spends 70 million dollars on shenmue and doesnt afraid of anything

[Barry the Nomad]

From where I stand, all I see is somebody judging Bayonetta based on what the heroine looks like rather than how the game plays. If you have actually played it (and maybe you have, but haven't mentioned it yet), let's say for a good few levels, then I'd be willing to accept that you gave it a shot and think it is shit based on deeper and more meaningful reasons. ....though the game is so universally loved that I don't see how anybody who played it could call it shit.

Also, in regards to her sexuality, I think this video makes some excellent points on why Bayonetta both is a strong female character and uses sexuality to her own advantage rather than simply for the titillation of the player: http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episo ... -Bayonetta

Finally, what's wrong with sexuality in video games? I'm sure a lot of female fans (as well as a few male ones) love muscular strong shirtless men in games, so why can't female characters play up on what is thought to be a sexually attractive female? Must all characters look like 1:1 realistic folks? Why not use the unreality that is video games to accentuate reality, whether that be in violence, sexuality or simply visually?

edit: Good points on Bayo, Sanus. Really I never found myself really attracted to her visually (Nozomi is more my thing). But then when I played the game, her personality and "if you're badass and you know it" mentality won me over.

Also, dat ass.

[crackdude]

I think that you guys are pushing the ideal that there's nothing wrong with the sexualization of the character.
While I agree, I don't think that it matters to the case. If someone doesn't like such exploitation in their games, they won't like the games. Either if that is ethically correct or not.

Example: I hate and avoid games that have the Devil as a character. Not that it's wrong or not-wrong for it to be there. I simply don't like the idea of seeing the representation of all evil on earth shoved at my face, so I won't enjoy the game. It's a personal opinion.

[Barry the Nomad]

I think that you guys are pushing the ideal that there's nothing wrong with the sexualization of the character.
While I agree, I don't think that it matters to the case. If someone doesn't like such exploitation in their games, they won't like the games. Either if that is ethically correct or not.

Example: I hate and avoid games that have the Devil as a character. Not that it's wrong or not-wrong for it to be there. I simply don't like the idea of seeing the representation of all evil on earth shoved at my face, so I won't enjoy the game. It's a personal opinion.

I think the problem is that the game itself was not played before the judgment of "shitty game" was given. I hate Adam Sandler, and yet I love the movie Punch Drunk Love. When I first saw the poster I thought "Well, I'm going to avoid that!", then 5 years later I got around to seeing it and loved it. Exceptions can exist, and sometimes you have to see the whole picture to "get it".

Annnnyyyyywayyyyyy... in respect to max_cady let's keep on his topic and continue this in the bayonetta thread if need be: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58&start=70

[crackdude]

I didn't know that whenever anyone says "shitty game" he/she is giving an universally undoubted factual statement rather than a personal opinion >_>


Anyway lol
In regards to the thread's main point, where the Sega lable really influences is in the old games. I buy any Dreamcast or Saturn game I see for sale at my usual retro store that I don't own yet. Some of my friends don't understand that.
It doesn't even have to be a game by Sega. I bought GigaWing for about 30euro for example, and I don't even regret it! It's something in my head that makes me do it. Fortunately, I come across many many gems this way.

[cube_b3]

Out of respect for Max Cady I had my offtopic posts and the response towards those posts moved out... Given that it is 8.30AM and I haven't had a wink of sleep all night I will try to snooze for a few hours and then get back to this.

I have read your interpretations of my comment, hence named the topic another incoherent discussion by me.

When I wake up I will try to make this more coherent until then, let's take a brief brake.

Thank You, brb (maybe 12 hours).

[George]

(Split this from Max's topic since Cube asked for it to be moved, you know, so the other topic would stay 'on course'. So if you want to yell at Cube, do it here.)

[crackdude]

Aw man, two of my posts were totally related to the other thread lol

[Orta]

I don't care who makes the games (that means designer or brand) as long as they're good or entertaining.

I want more Oba, Kodama, Suzuki and less Nagoshi.

Which leads me to this. Takashi Iizuka is still doing bad games because they sell on brand name alone. Toshihiro Nagoshi is making good games that sell... You see my point. As long as they sell. It's the face of Sega Sammy Holdings or any real business, unlike Sega parent company of CSK which produced great output but spent 70 million in Shenmue. *cough*

[cube_b3]

I am sorry for an extremly late reply but 9/9 is around the corner and I have been busy working with GSP Relaunch and several other Dreamcast related stuff.

I think that you guys are pushing the ideal that there's nothing wrong with the sexualization of the character.
While I agree, I don't think that it matters to the case. If someone doesn't like such exploitation in their games, they won't like the games. Either if that is ethically correct or not.

I have to thank you for atleast trying to see that people can find such objectification and sexualization offensive.
Instead of anyone understanding that the designers whose games I want to play under the Sega brand name, won’t get to make a game. Instead I have to start a debate whether Bayonetta is objectifying females or not.

Though I never understood what's the problem with being bias.. I mean, if I love Sega and hate Capcom why should I have to try and like Capcom games?

The thing is I don't like Platinum Games, the way they all walked out of Capcom was not something I supported. Sega went through much worse with the Sammy merger, employees had a reason to leave the firm in Capcom's case they were making the necessary financial adjustments.

I am not going to go into all Capcom details cause I don't have time to start a Capcom based debate.

I am a mega Capcom fan and I don't like Platinum Games for walking out on them in these tough times, Yu Suzuki, Makoto Uchida, Rieko Kodama, Noriyoshi Oba all are still at Sega and instead Sega goes and makes a deal with PG.

So far I've not seen a game from the studio I was attracted towards anyway.

HOTD:OK & Bayonetta are quite exploitative and revolve around selling sexuality (if not completely, then to an extent)

This is not true at all. Any sexual themes in Overkill were based on jokes and if you played Bayonetta for a second you would realize it is not about showing off her body or some nonsense like that, but about female empowerment. Bayonetta knows she is cooler than everyone in the game and she is going to constantly prove it. It is one of the only games to ever exist that has an extremely powerful and smart female lead like this, and you should respect that.

Next you'll say Duke Nukem doesn't objectify women, he is about courage and balls of steel.
Charlie’s Angel the old tv show was also about empowering women but it exploited them more than any other show at the time, making the cast members not wear bras and consistently finding excuses for the Angel to wear bikini’s. Was that show empowering yes, was it more exploitative Yes (x2).

Also, in regards to her sexuality, I think this video makes some excellent points on why Bayonetta both is a strong female character and uses sexuality to her own advantage rather than simply for the titillation of the player: http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episo ... -Bayonetta

Finally, what's wrong with sexuality in video games?

Sexuality has it's place, but Bayonetta in my opinion crossed the line, the games marketing strategy would put Duke Nukem to shame.

This is the teaser from his upcoming game: Duke Nukem Forever, it is an established fact that this man loves to exploit women and he's made a name for himself in this line
[youtube:33pnxoja]cWuteFLUPSY[/youtube:33pnxoja]

The entire teaser doesn't even show any chicks, perhaps it is unfair to compare a teaser with Bayonetta let's try the previous trailer when the game was almost completed with the unreal engine
[youtube:33pnxoja]TDlB2P1leRM[/youtube:33pnxoja]

You barely get to see a stripper at the end of the trailer and this is Duke Nukem we're talking about. Now let's look at Bayonetta's first trailer back in 2008.
[youtube:33pnxoja]7NwQiEPGv9k[/youtube:33pnxoja]

 :x Cringe. The first thing she says ... I am not even going to bother discussing what was wrong with the trailer and if it wasn't just this one trailer, it was the entire marketing campaign. The game wasn't marketed as a game that will empower women everywher, especially not with the masterbation friendly control scheme.

edit: Good points on Bayo, Sanus. Really I never found myself really attracted to her visually (Nozomi is more my thing). But then when I played the game, her personality and "if you're badass and you know it" mentality won me over.

Also, dat ass.

[/quote]

You just contradicted yourself, when you mention "dat ass" it insinuates attraction
_________________

I really expected you to try and meet me half way atleast Barry instead you got stuck on Bayonetta.

My posts was about the true Sega Superstars not getting to make games, and people like me who grew up on Sega. Will never really get a chance to experience the Sega of Yesteryears with todays technology.

Even if one day we get SOR4, Noriyoshi Oba's PS2 Shinobi sequel, Phantasy Star 5, Jet Set Radio 2, Skies 2, Shenmue 3 and so on and on. It won't be made by the people who deserves to make them, and it kills the gamer inside me.

Did you see the dreadul SOR4 designs BottleRocket was working on before the studio shuttered?