Adam and Eve...

[Ben]

First and foremost, how they know the nutjob is a christian I have absolutely no idea and I don't think that public domain pictures of the Crusades, photos of costumes and a rushed copy-and-paste manifesto is any evidence worth printing When you start asking a couple of questions, like:
-To which Christian causes has he donated, which group was he affiliated,etc;

Nobody asks this, but they sure milk that angle like there's no tomorrow. I beleive that his actions were political and not in any religious.

The other curious tendency, is that if indeed a christian was involved in any wrongdoing, there is no generalization, no splitting hairs, nada...

The perp is defined as a "christian".

Take someone else from a different belief system, and the label stops being muslim, or hindu and starts being purely and simply "religion", in order not to offend one particular group, an homogenous label is placed on every possible creed. Does that seem rational?

Hm....gotta respectfully disagree with you there, man. The dude wrote thousand+ pages of manifesto about his religion. He identified himself as that religion. People have no right to say whether he "is a Christian" or not. He identified himself as a Christian, therefore, that's what he was.

Just like in the Fort Hood massacre, done by a Muslim, it was heavily reported that the man was Muslim. People had no problem identifying him as a Muslim almost immediately, and these same people (Bill O'Reilly) are now playing the "How do we even know this guy's a Christian?" angle for this case. It's a typical example of hypocracy. People are willing to blame other religions for society's issues as long as it's not their own that's being targeted.

But Jon Stewart says it better than I ever could.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-27-2011/in-the-name-of-the-fodder

[max_cady]

Sorry to disagree, but Jon Stewart is not on authority on anything.

The Ford Hood massacre, maybe I'm blanking out on things, but let's say that Fox News actually did point out that the gentleman in question was muslim. Even if he was and much like the early reports in Norway, ABC, CNN and such were quick to seek out a justification for his actions.

In fact, here's a quick comparison between both articles (ABC, Fox News).

Fox News, interestingly enough had already posted a justification for his action on the very fist paragraph, unlike ABC, which is still further down below.

Also note that Fox News also has a quote from CAIR with them condemning the acts of this individual and that they don't see themselves in this guy.

Now take the nutjob from Norway, if we should take everything he says seriously, then by that token, the Call of Duty games should also be put under the same scrutinity because he also says that he's used them as a simulator to carry out his plans... right?

His own manifesto which addresses his views on christianity are mindboggling...

[Waffle]

If you do not want a generalized answer to your post then don't post in generalities. Your posts read like Nazi propaganda, hate to tell ya man. My country allows for freedom of religion; no idea where you're from, but that's how it works where I live. What's done in Saudi Arabia and who they allow to worship there has nothing to do with my country or the Muslims in my country.

I do not want a generalised answer? And I thought some of the posts I made were rather extensive. Also since when was the assertion that others should mind their own business (ideologically) considered 'Nazi propaganda' ?

I do have issues with American-style society being forced on me. I do not believe in multi-national or multi-religious (in a far-reaching consideration) states. Though you also seem fine with the prospect of Saudi Arabia having the same attitude?

There is a reason no one outside of fake states such as Kosovo like American attitudes concerning foreign policy.

They probably would, LOL, but that has nothing to do with this topic. I do always find it funny though how quickly the Arab League for example demanded our help in Libya despite their supposed "hatred" of our military. France is the same way. They begged for our help in that conflict too. I certainly don't support all the foreign policy decisions my country makes, but it's funny to me how many people seem to hate the American military until they find themselves in need of our help...

Maybe you should realise the disconnect between common people and political elites. The pigs running the EU from France certainly love America, they have their structure based off of it. Paying some idle lip-service to the public in order to pretend they care for the country they rule does not mean much. Everyone in power knows it is untrue and just for show.

I do not know much about the Arab League, but they are probably in it simply for oil control. Gaddafii was a bit too blunt and self-serving for globalist freaks who get off on manipulating others. When a group of political elites care more about material wealth, they are more likely to cut off each other's heads at the first sign of self determinism to maintain the group.

Call it what you will dude, lol.....politics, not religion, are at the heart of Al Qaida's actions as well, they merely use religion as a pretext for their actions in order to gain followers. The stash of weed and porn found at Bin Laden's compound doesn't demonstrate a man of as "pure faith" as how he claimed he was to his followers, that's for sure, lmao.

More like America uses religion to gain support for their fake terrorist network. I mentioned earlier how Al Qaeda was created by America to attack the Soviet Union. Now they are doing the same thing in Libya by arming their inbred, religious fanatics to attack the Libyan government. On state-controlled media they will call Al Qaeda 'rebels' or some other non-sense to fool the masses of morons.

And do not joke with that foolish Bin Laden story. Anyone with a grain of sense knows he died 5-10 years ago. I mean just look at the tapes they released with fake actors with black beards, as if that was him. And the body just washed away? Haha, yeah, sure it did. Sorry but I am not fooled by the childish, poorly-constructed propaganda that comes out of America. Only moronic Americans and their drooling puppets are.

With the exception of Turkey, those are all 3rd world countries man.....not a great demonstration of the civilized Muslim world. The United Arab Emirates (Dubai) is an example of a peaceful and prosperous (mostly) Muslim nation.

It is not my fault that nearly every Muslim country happens to be uncivilised. Maybe note this pattern?

UAE is also barely anything; just a small speck of a country maintained by high commercial value. Wait for the wealth to dry up and it will fall apart rapidly.

Okay...how about the Christians killed by Roman rule? How about the millions slaughtered by the Christians in the Crusades? Again, you act like these problems are exclusive to the Muslim faith. It's true that Islam is practiced (and used to govern) in countries that happen to be INCREDIBLY poor and backwards. Using those countries to brand all Muslims with a label is rather ignorant and I'm surprised to see someone with such eloquent posts making such a dumb generalization.

Why are you going on about Christian crusades now? Those were not long-lasting as the Muslim crusades were. And they were all in reaction, such as Moors invading Iberia, Turks invading Anatolia, and Muslims destroying Christian temples in Palestine. Again it is all 100% the fault of Muslims, even if the reaction was poor. Christians would not have their excuse to invade others if not for the fact that others were invaded by Muslims prior to every major situation.

lmao to classify the Old Testament as "Jewish folk stories" is pretty ridiculous.....if one is a follower of  an Abrahamic religion, to ignore the Old Testament would be to disregard a huge chunk of those religions. Most people who consider themselves faithful to one of those religions believe that the stories are sacred, or, at the very least, work important to the themes of the religion. Since they deal with the alleged creation of humanity, I don't see at all how they're "specific to Jews."

They are Jewish folk stories to me. They were written by Jews, for Jews, and are about Jews. What is more ridiculous is how a Christian or Muslim believes it relates to them. It does not.

[max_cady]

Well, if you guys want to read a little more stuff indepth about the various beliefs, here's a few informative links on Christianity and Islam.

There's also a fascinating insight here on the many myths about the Middle Ages.

[Barry the Nomad]

WAFFLE: Unacceptable post. I'll be speaking with Sharky, but in the meantime you're getting a warning.

[tarpmortar]

WAFFLE: Unacceptable post. I'll be speaking with Sharky, but in the meantime you're getting a warning.

Did the unacceptable post get removed?

[Ben]

I do not want a generalised answer? And I thought some of the posts I made were rather extensive. Also since when was the assertion that others should mind their own business (ideologically) considered 'Nazi propaganda' ?

I do have issues with American-style society being forced on me. I do not believe in multi-national or multi-religious (in a far-reaching consideration) states. Though you also seem fine with the prospect of Saudi Arabia having the same attitude?

There is a reason no one outside of fake states such as Kosovo like American attitudes concerning foreign policy.

Your argument is that Muslims in free countries don't deserve religious freedom because in oppressed countries like Saudi Arabia, Muslim governments don't grant religious freedom to non-Muslims? Is that your argument? Because that's the argument I'm getting from your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. But if that's what you're arguing, it's pretty ignorant. Again, an over-controlling religious dictatorship (basically) in a poor country has no bearing on moderate, free Muslims elsewhere.

And do not joke with that foolish Bin Laden story. Anyone with a grain of sense knows he died 5-10 years ago. I mean just look at the tapes they released with fake actors with black beards, as if that was him. And the body just washed away? Haha, yeah, sure it did. Sorry but I am not fooled by the childish, poorly-constructed propaganda that comes out of America. Only moronic Americans and their drooling puppets are.

Whoo boy, okay, you're one of those. Alright, never mind dude.....I doubt this is even worth the effort.

It is not my fault that nearly every Muslim country happens to be uncivilised. Maybe note this pattern?

That's because many are located in the Middle East and Africa, 2 very unstable areas.

They are Jewish folk stories to me. They were written by Jews, for Jews, and are about Jews. What is more ridiculous is how a Christian or Muslim believes it relates to them. It does not.

Those stories are about the birth of humanity, if you're a believer in the teachings of these faiths you believe this. That relates to more than just Jews.

again it is all 100% the fault of Muslims, even if the reaction was poor.

Again, a very general statement that doesn't take into account countless facts. Hate to tell you man but it's INCREDIBLY rare to find a war in which the fault lies 100% with a single side. In fact, I'd say it's impossible.

[max_cady]

Hence why I wanted people to read this list about myths about Islam.

Because, as nSega has touched upon and here's what I'm getting at, many conflicts, especially in ancient times, had very little to do with beliefs, many of the wars are motivated by warfare over resources, but in those times, it's understandable in their context, to fight over resources, because something as trade and the marketplace was largely uncommon in tribal societies, therefore warfare was common.

But touching upon, resources, many African countries are in this kind of state of perpetual misery not because of western indifference, but because of the political climate in many of these countries.

Even if they had enough resources as it, it will all go to waste. Take Venezuela, sitting on vast amounts of oil and the country is slowly going to Hell, regardless of how many BS statistics they can pull out of their hats saying that this kind of model makes people's lives that much better.

If it wasn't for charities and the Church that send aid and missionaries, many african villages these people would have absolutely nothing...

[Ben]

^Oh, I forgot to respond to your previous post:

Now take the nutjob from Norway, if we should take everything he says seriously, then by that token, the Call of Duty games should also be put under the same scrutinity because he also says that he's used them as a simulator to carry out his plans... right?

Not saying we should take his ideas seriously, but to deny that this religious fanatic is a "Christian" just makes no sense to me. It's like denying that the 9/11 terrorists are Muslim. How he interprets (or misinterprets) the teachings of his religion has nothing to do with whether or not he practices it. Clearly he is a believer in Christianity, and to argue this is to distract from the issue. Again, this man killed many people. To spend even a minute arguing about whether he's "really Christian" or not is dumb. None of us are judging the Christian religion, none of us are bashing it, but the simple fact is; the man was a Christian. Defensive Christians need to move past that and focus on the real issue at hand.

(and off-topic, but Jon Stewart, despite his comedic delivery, is much more factual and more intelligent than most of the pundits you see on the news channels, hate to tell ya man)

[max_cady]

Back on track to the Norway discussion, for the sake of the argument let's say that this non-practicing Christian(or at least culturally-influenced by Christian ideology), then what is the real issue?

What were the real circumstances behind this? What was the motivation? And how it has gotten to this point?

It's been nearly two weeks since the horrific massacre, and we still haven't gone beyond this point...

Here's a real pundit from Spiked Online explaining it from a completely dettached situation:

Yet this simplistic categorisation of contemporary terror assaults - where violent outbursts get slotted into files marked ‘Radical Islamist Fury’ or ‘Right-Wing Anger’ - makes too fine a distinction between acts that are actually very similar. Just because something like 7/7 in London was executed by men with dark hair and brown skin who claimed to be fighting on behalf of the Muslim ummah, while the bombing of Oslo and massacre on Utoya were carried out by a white guy who claimed to be protecting European Christian culture, that doesn’t mean these are diametrically different actions. What they have in common is far more important than what separates them. And, stripped of their pseudo-political garb, what unites today’s various terror tantrums, what makes these kind of people possible in the first place, is a very powerful culture of estrangement in modern society.

In much of the media, particularly amongst the respectable broadsheet press, there was a palpable sense of relief when it was revealed that the alleged killer is white with far-right tendencies. This means he is the kind of person we can unambiguously hate. Where Islamist terror attacks, from 9/11 to 7/7, induce in some liberal observers torn and tortured feelings, where they want to condemn the violence but also feel the need to explain it as a natural reaction to evil Western foreign policy, Anders Behring Breivik is someone they can despise in an uncomplicated way.

(Off-topic again: Jon Stewart reads a script and has a crowd that will cheer and laugh at anything he says.)

[Ben]

Back on track to the Norway discussion, for the sake of the argument let's say that this non-practicing Christian(or at least culturally-influenced by Christian ideology), then what is the real issue?

The issue is that Christians are being overly-defensive. Nobody is saying "OMG CHRISTIANITY INSPIRES KILLERS!" yet some Christians in the media are acting like it and are attempting to brush off the guy's faith. Look, he was Christian, there are no two ways around it, lol. There's no issue.

Where Islamist terror attacks, from 9/11 to 7/7, induce in some liberal observers torn and tortured feelings, where they want to condemn the violence but also feel the need to explain it as a natural reaction to evil Western foreign policy, Anders Behring Breivik is someone they can despise in an uncomplicated way.

See, I'm not sure what world this guy's living in; if he thinks it's been easy to be a Muslim in a post-9/11 America, he's crazy! (And I'm not even Muslim.) Of course people condemn and attack Muslims for the actions of the terrorists and corrupt rulers, we're seeing Waffle do it in this very thread!

Anyway, though the man's motivations and actions may not be immediately clear, the fact that he wrote a thousand page+ Christian manifesto and the fact that he seemed to hold manic anti-Islamic views is *at least* worth mentioning......wouldn't you agree? Why are Christians in the media getting angry that it's being mentioned? They're just coming off as ridiculous, imo.

(Off-topic again: Jon Stewart reads a script and has a crowd that will cheer and laugh at anything he says.)

A script that he and his writers write......and yes people cheer and laugh at what he says.....but listen to what he says! More often than not, he speaks the truth. How is this any different from Bill O'Reilly or other news correspondents? It's all the same thing, man. 


A big problem in today's media is the issue of lack of original reporting. Original reporting is expensive, and more and more often now, we're seeing news media simply acquire this reporting secondhand and have pundits on the show to argue back and forth on it. That's no different from the Daily Show...the only difference is the delivery of the news.

Pundits arguing back and forth is not news, and certainly no more trustworthy than Jon Stewart.

[Waffle]

Did the unacceptable post get removed?

I merely pointed out that a lot of priests, in addition to Muhammad, enjoy molesting children. I am not sure how Barry thinks it is untrue, here is a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

As for Muhammed:

Book 008, Number 3310:

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310

Considering his actions, Comrade Barry seems to be quite the defender of child molestation. Maybe he should join the EU Thought Police or a child raping labour party. Being a priest or an imam works too. Just so many opportunities!

[Waffle]

Your argument is that Muslims in free countries don't deserve religious freedom because in oppressed countries like Saudi Arabia, Muslim governments don't grant religious freedom to non-Muslims? Is that your argument? Because that's the argument I'm getting from your posts and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. But if that's what you're arguing, it's pretty ignorant. Again, an over-controlling religious dictatorship (basically) in a poor country has no bearing on moderate, free Muslims elsewhere.

Saudi Arabia is not a poor, third-world country, and it is directly supported and loved by Americans and their underlings. Many of the Mosques in European countries are directly funded and supported with education material from Saudi Arabia. It is also built on Muhammad (thus Islam)'s ideals - just as the Vatican represents Western European Christianity.

Whoo boy, okay, you're one of those. Alright, never mind dude.....I doubt this is even worth the effort.

What are 'those' ? People who do not follow the filth and lies coming from America?

America is the biggest terrorist state and threat to the world, not some fake boogie man who lives in caves.

That's because many are located in the Middle East and Africa, 2 very unstable areas.

And I suppose outside of these areas, Muslims are fine to live around? That is why in Scandinavia, for example, natives have to dye their hair black to avoid being attacked by Muslims, and Jews and Christians have to hide their identity or be attacked in the streets.

Everywhere Muslims go, they form ghettos around Mosques and effectively invade the countries they have migrated to. Just search European 'no-go areas', France is full of them.

Those stories are about the birth of humanity, if you're a believer in the teachings of these faiths you believe this. That relates to more than just Jews.

It seems more like the birth of Jews. Obviously it makes no sense that humanity was created that way, there are too many diverse types of people. Plus they go beyond just Adam and Eve. The rest seem entirely Jewish to me.

Again, a very general statement that doesn't take into account countless facts. Hate to tell you man but it's INCREDIBLY rare to find a war in which the fault lies 100% with a single side. In fact, I'd say it's impossible.

How is it the fault of a Christian that Turks attacked Christian pilgrims in Anatolia? That Moors invaded Iberia? That the temple of Jesus Christ's tomb in Palestine was destroyed by the Islamic government there at the time?

Seriously, answer these questions. I want to know how Muslims are not purely at fault. Then tell me how Christians would have had the excuse to convince people to go on holy wars to restore these areas otherwise.

[Shigs]

What are 'those' ? People who do not follow the filth and lies coming from America?

America is the biggest terrorist state and threat to the world, not some fake boogie man who lives in caves.
 

Good God, you sound more and more like some evil supervillain from some faraway land.  Pray tell, how is my country some "evil terrorist state"?

In most Muslim terrorist attacks, the person who had done the attacking is usually defined as a "Muslim Extremist". Why can't this Christian terrorist who made a 1,000 page manifesto be labeled under "Christian Extremist"? I mean, there's TONS of variations of Christians. Most are the go to church on Sunday and that's about it, to Jesus Camp, to those "GOD HATES FAGS" guys. Being Muslim does not automatically make you some evil no more than a Christian is. It depends on how far some twist the religious teaching to meet thier own ideals.

[tarpmortar]

Good God, you sound more and more like some evil supervillain from some faraway land.  Pray tell, how is my country some "evil terrorist state"?

Well, to be fair the US has done some fucked up shit, that is undeniable. Waffle is no doubt over-exaggerating, but we have done some fucked up shit that could be classified as terrorism, especially if we take the term by its' literal dictionary definition.