OK, SEGAbits, let's sit down and talk about piracy...

[max_cady]

I mean, Internet piracy which is basically, infrigment of copyrights. Hopefully we can tackle this issue in the most sincere form possible. I say sincere, because we can never be sure of how piracy on the Internet works and how big is it's overall impact, since there lacks proper statical data to support certain claims by both industry and actual civialian statistics.

Let's be honest, here, I'm sure all of us here at some point, have argued how video games, movies and so forth have become way too expensive and buying a 60USD game, only to feel cheated is a risk to big for your wallet.

So piracy seems like a viable optional for people who try before they buy, where you "try it" and actually buy the game or just play with it for 10 minutes and just throw away the disc. But even the ones who actively rebel against the industry as whole, they don't have the courage to bring up the fact that they download a ton of movies or games, because once they do it, they feel exposed, even on a message board. Guilt implies that even though they do it, they feel guilty about it.

But the crux of the matter remains, which is, once you start to get into that routine, you start to realize how little you actually care about the items themselves. You didn't pay anything for it, which means that it has absolutely no value to you.

On the flip side, the video game industry and movie industry are going out of their way to support nearly impractical methods.

But I want to get some impressions from y'all...

[Aki-at]

I would mostly wait for a game to hit the bargin bins before purchasing it if I felt the price was too high by using my minimum wage calculation ie Sonic Generations has 5 hours of gameplay therefore £6.08 (UK's minimum wage) x 5 = £30.40

But onto the matter of piracy myself;

I very much doubt many of them (Those who do mass piracy) would purchase a game or a film or whatever if they already pirate such a large amount of data. I'm more willing to bet they are simply cheapskates or short of any large amount of monetary that would allow them to enjoy such an extensive amount of entertainment. Perhaps a slight increase but I would doubt an overall increase that would help any particular industry much.

Generally I do not believe they would start buying goods, rather they would just move on and do something else with their times. Of course it does not stop it from being wrong, but I do not believe in the manner in which large companies act they are losing billions a year to piracy neither, I simply do not believe pirates would purchase the goods in such mass numbers otherwise.

But the crux of the matter remains, which is, once you start to get into that routine, you start to realize how little you actually care about the items themselves. You didn't pay anything for it, which means that it has absolutely no value to you.

I'm not sure I quite get this. Someone can take something for free and yet understand the value in it, just because I happen to pay a large amount of money for, say, a physical dumping of a dog does not attach any sort of value to it. Likewise just because I happen to receive an expensive item for free, or download a film, does not mean I do not understand the value of it. Of course feel free to elaborate further if you meant something else.

Also ninjas were always cooler. They have Joe Musashi, no contest.

[Barry the Nomad]

I don't pirate games, though I do download emulators and roms of old stuff from the 70's/80's/early 90's for use on my open source handheld.

I think video game rental services are great, though I don't use them myself. I like the concept. You have just about any game to choose from, and don't need to download it. Just pay a monthly fee.

I never ever pirate movies, because I love seeing stuff in the theater. If I like it enough to pirate it, I should just be going to see it.

However, I'll admit to downloading TV shows that I've missed or shows that have a long wait between tv and DVD. More often than not I end up buying the shows in complete series sets. I just hate the way modern TV is handled. Cable costs way too much, and offers up way too little. Stuff on HBO and Showtime may be great, but it's too expensive for the channels. Other options? Buy via iTunes or Zune, but then you've got these files that you've paid for but only watched once.

Ideally, there should be a system where you subscribe to the season and have the ability to watch each new episode on release and have the ability to watch it until the next week's show is released. You can go by the episode, in the chance that you dislike the show and want to cancel. Or you pay for a season at a lower cost. So you save money in the long run, but are roped in for the full season. Also, this package should include a rebate for the eventual DVD/blu-ray release. Like a $5 coupon. If this were a system, I'd gladly pay for a full season of, say, Californication or Curb Your Entusiasm if it meant I'd get each show for temporary viewing in HD, and could save a bit on the physical release down the road.

iTunes season pass is sort of like this, but it involves purchasing a full season in digital form, not simply renting them. Plus, these files are very restrictive. I'd have to go through a lot of illegal hoops to convert them so I could stream them from iTunes to my XBOX. So you pay for files that take up harddrive space and cannot be used where you really want to use them.

[crackdude]

In regards to piracy I'm a bit loose moral-wise.
 I used to be a full head on pirate. Warez till my neck since I was 7. At that age I had many contacts already with the local pirates (older kids with access to those hacking newsgroups and such). I pirated my PS1 and Dreamcast.
 When the Dreamcast died I felt so guilty that I sweared I'd never pirate again.
 
 Of course I did a bit anyway, but nowdays it goes like this:
 If a game is for a console not currently on stores, fuck it. I download the hell out of it. It's not like they would be making any money out of it. The exception: Sega games.
 Portable gaming, I was legit with the PSP for a long time. When the games became scarce last year I bought a PSPgo and it's hacked. I get all the games I want. Most of the ones I like aren't on the PSN.
 
 Developers aren't making any money out of old games. And even if they are, I don't feel a NES game is worth 5 euros, Nintendo. Cheap-ass companies wanna charge 5 bucks for a ROM no better than the ones I download for free?
 Sega was wise, the MegaDrive collection for example is incredible value. I bought that in a blink of an eye.
 
 To me it's all a matter of "is it worth the price?". If some old-ass game costs 40 euros, and I know for certain that I will NEVER pay that money for that game, I pirate it. Because if there was no piracy, I'd simply not buy it.
 There are games that I pirated until the price dropped. Then I bought them.
 
 As for movies/TV:
 It doesn't feel right paying for something that I can get on TV for free.
 If I enjoy How I Met Your Mother and have the means to record it from the TV to watch whenever I want for free, why on earth should I pay for a (digitally downloaded) season?
 Don't get me wrong, I'm the dude who spent 200 euros on Seinfeld DVDs. But I got some physical objects for what I payed. I could have also record it from TV, Sic Radical shows reruns every day.
 
 Movies....eh. When I really like one I go to the cinema.
 There are movies I downloaded that I thought were so good, I went to the cinema and watched 'em again.
 
 
 I would classify myself as a "try before buy" pirate.
 
 
 As for the impact on industry itself, I agree fully with Aki's thoughts. Companies are full of shit.

[max_cady]

I'm not sure I quite get this. Someone can take something for free and yet understand the value in it, just because I happen to pay a large amount of money for, say, a physical dumping of a dog does not attach any sort of value to it. Likewise just because I happen to receive an expensive item for free, or download a film, does not mean I do not understand the value of it. Of course feel free to elaborate further if you meant something else.

My statement is a bit confusing because it's something that's not easy or simple to explain from one person to the next. But downloading something off the Internet is not the same as receiving a gift from someone. A gift is item that is purchased by someone who thinks(or rather assumes) that the person finds some value in the actual item. The other scenarios you mention are a little grey, to be honest.

To quote Shakespeare: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Regardless, the issue is that taking something without some sort of compensation is in itself an infrigment of property rights. But again this is something that two people simply cannot feel exactly the same way.

Let's say we both have a lemon tree in our own backwards and kids climb the fence to snatch one of them, we could either:

• Claim that they are trespassing on our property, because it is purely and simply, theft;
• But on the flip side, one kid taking a lemon from your tree might not really annoy you in any way

But regarless of what we feel about this morally, theft is a criminal offense in and of itself. But I also don't agree with the impractical method of suing 12-year olds over the Internet.

Now personally, what makes me not want to indulge that much in such a practice is that, hypothetically, I download a ton of movies (especially those that have never been released in Portugal) and convert them to DVD so I can watch them without the hassle of going to the movies or having to go to a DVD rental. I no longer enjoy wacthing them, because if I can aquire them so easily and without any consequence, it just becomes meningless.

But that's just me.

[Aki-at]

My statement is a bit confusing because it's something that's not easy or simple to explain from one person to the next. But downloading something off the Internet is not the same as receiving a gift from someone. A gift is item that is purchased by someone who thinks(or rather assumes) that the person finds some value in the actual item. The other scenarios you mention are a little grey, to be honest.

I actually said free because I did not want to say steal actually haha.

But how about someone downloading a rom for free (Let us say, my favourite game in the series, Sonic the Hedgehog 2) compared to spending $60 (Let us say the worst, Silver the Hedgehog) I am sure more people would find value in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 compared to Silver. They will not now believe one is better than the other (Unless you happen to be Cube!) they just happened to gain one for free, rather than pay for it. I purchased MadWorld for full price, but I can point out games that I have played on emulator (Let us say, Monster World IV!) that I just find infinately more entertaining.

I will mention a recent example of a free film I watched. I saw Jackie Chan's Robin B Hood on Youtube a few months ago. Completely for free and it shot up to become one of my favourite Jackie Chan film, I was enjoying every minute I watched, but perhaps I should answer your next quote before continuing...

Now personally, what makes me not want to indulge that much in such a practice is that, hypothetically, I download a ton of movies (especially those that have never been released in Portugal) and convert them to DVD so I can watch them without the hassle of going to the movies or having to go to a DVD rental. I no longer enjoy wacthing them, because if I can aquire them so easily and without any consequence, it just becomes meningless.

But that's just me.

I see that you are trying to argue if you do not sacrifice anything, you find it hard to enjoy a product. I believe only a limited number of people are like this, infact, would it not be harder to apperciate something if you purchase it? It is under extra scrutiny because one would be hoping for value of money, whilst if you got it free, all that you would need to worry about is the time you spent with it.

Not that I am arguing that being a pirate is right, it is not.

[crackdude]

I see that you are trying to argue if you do not sacrifice anything, you find it hard to enjoy a product. I believe only a limited number of people are like this, infact, would it not be harder to apperciate something if you purchase it? It is under extra scrutiny because one would be hoping for value of money, whilst if you got it free, all that you would need to worry about is the time you spent with it.

Not that I am arguing that being a pirate is right, it is not.

No.. I get what max is saying.
It's like spoiled kids. Imagine two kids. One asks for an Xbox and his father buys one. The other returns lost golf balls for 6 months to get the Xbox.
Whom will cherish his Xbox the most? Or at the very least understand it's value..


(and because of your "The Professor" title I'm reading your text in Alain Prost's voice)

[max_cady]

But how about someone downloading a rom for free (Let us say, my favourite game in the series, Sonic the Hedgehog 2) compared to spending $60 (Let us say the worst, Silver the Hedgehog) I am sure more people would find value in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 compared to Silver. They will not now believe one is better than the other (Unless you happen to be Cube!) they just happened to gain one for free, rather than pay for it. I purchased MadWorld for full price, but I can point out games that I have played on emulator (Let us say, Monster World IV!) that I just find infinately more entertaining.

I'm sure anybody will find more value in the classic Sonic 2 title than Sonic The Hedgehog 2006, that much is certain. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is widely available for purchase in just about every medium(XBLA, PSN, PC Digital Download,etc) for dirt cheap, whereas 60 USD for that game is a waste of money.

In this situation the issue is not so much about piracy, it's pure economics, when a bad product is released, customers have the power to punish the retailer and the developer by simply not buying the game.

I see that you are trying to argue if you do not sacrifice anything, you find it hard to enjoy a product. I believe only a limited number of people are like this, infact, would it not be harder to apperciate something if you purchase it? It is under extra scrutiny because one would be hoping for value of money, whilst if you got it free, all that you would need to worry about is the time you spent with it.

Making decisions on buying games and other items just seems to be common routine, though, I would be lying to myself if had I never I said I bought something only to regret it later(buyer's remorse), because, even though, it's was a nice purchase, it just wasn't something that I needed at that point.

[Aki-at]

No.. I get what max is saying.
It's like spoiled kids. Imagine two kids. One asks for an Xbox and his father buys one. The other returns lost golf balls for 6 months to get the Xbox.
Whom will cherish his Xbox the most? Or at the very least understand it's value..

That is true. Spoiling yourself with goods may erode one's tastes and concept of value but there are exceptions. Take for example the fandom of any anime (And I must apologize for any incorrect generalization here) made up of pirates. You would find millions who love that particular hobby despite many downloading to watch the show.

(and because of your "The Professor" title I'm reading your text in Alain Prost's voice)

You should be reading in the voice of Arsene Wenger. I am disappoint : (

I'm sure anybody will find more value in the classic Sonic 2 title than Sonic The Hedgehog 2006, that much is certain. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 is widely available for purchase in just about every medium(XBLA, PSN, PC Digital Download,etc) for dirt cheap, whereas 60 USD for that game is a waste of money.

In this situation the issue is not so much about piracy, it's pure economics, when a bad product is released, customers have the power to punish the retailer and the developer by simply not buying the game.

Perhaps its better to state a game I did download that was good, being Monster World IV, which I had for free. To me, that platformer is better than Sonic CD, for example. I paid full price for Sonic CD but I still found more value form Monster World IV.

Making decisions on buying games and other items just seems to be common routine, though, I would be lying to myself if had I never I said I bought something only to regret it later(buyer's remorse), because, even though, it's was a nice purchase, it just wasn't something that I needed at that point.

My point rather is if I had pirated Final Fantasy XIII, I would have probably be more forgiving since I lose only time, if I had bought it, I probably would have regretted it. That being said expanding on Crackdude's explaination, I can see how spoiling yourself may cause a devaluation of value, but I can only see it as further devalue on products that they would hate regardless. I mean, pirates do still value the stop they pirate, do they not?

Note: I have never played Final Fantasy XIII and in general hate the Final Fantasy series

[crackdude]

What is it with french people being called professors anyway? Do professors get all the girls in France?




By personal experience I have to add that I usually play a game longer if I paid for it.


Same thing happens with magazines. I can be at the airport lounge, grab a handful of car magazines (my favs) and take a quick glance at them. But if I buy a car magazine I read it so damn hard.


Might be something psychological going on, I'm not sure though.


I also think the anime example falls to the category of TV series. You don't have interaction with what's going on, and you usually buy the series DVD after watching it on TV or so.
I doubt there are any hardcore Sonic fans that have never bought Sonic games. On the other hand, 90% of Naruto fans simply watch over the web.

[Aki-at]

What is it with french people being called professors anyway? Do professors get all the girls in France?

Actually...

When Arsene Wenger arrived at Arsenal, the fans dubbed him the Professor because he wore ridiciously large circular glasses but it was the fact that he spoke French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Japanese plus having degrees in both economics and engineering.

Basically he is super clever and wasted as a football manager.

(Not that I'm complaining!)

By personal experience I have to add that I usually play a game longer if I paid for it.

Same thing happens with magazines. I can be at the airport lounge, grab a handful of car magazines (my favs) and take a quick glance at them. But if I buy a car magazine I read it so damn hard.

Might be something psychological going on, I'm not sure though.

It makes sense. On the flipside to buyer's remorse, one feels entitled to ensure the money they have spent does not go to waste so tries to guage as much value out of the product. A recent example for me was when I ordered a coke mixed with curry, it was digusting and the worst drink I've ever had, but I kept at it because I did not want it to go to waste.

(Sadly, the drink won in the end and I lost, it broke me : ( )

I also think the anime example falls to the category of TV series. You don't have interaction with what's going on, and you usually buy the series DVD after watching it on TV or so.
I doubt there are any hardcore Sonic fans that have never bought Sonic games. On the other hand, 90% of Naruto fans simply watch over the web.

Can you expand further? What makes video entertainment different from video game entertainment? Who do people see it is acceptable to watch a program illegal but not video game?

[MadeManG74]

coke mixed with curry

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[crackdude]

Actually...

When Arsene Wenger arrived at Arsenal, the fans dubbed him the Professor because he wore ridiciously large circular glasses but it was the fact that he spoke French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Japanese plus having degrees in both economics and engineering.

Basically he is super clever and wasted as a football manager.

(Not that I'm complaining!)

I had no idea.. I do love the man. Arsenal's my favorite english side. Though 2005 is long gone and I've been a little disappointed lately..

coke mixed with curry

what.

Can you expand further? What makes video entertainment different from video game entertainment? Who do people see it is acceptable to watch a program illegal but not video game?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

But I think the anime and videogame markets are very distinct.
Anime generates money by TV revenue, mangas, merchandising. Videogames generate revenue by selling.
Whether I download Love Hina episodes or not is "irrelevant" since they will show on TV either way, and they will make their money anyway. And when I buy Love Hina sleeping pillows they'll get even more. (this example cause they were a success in Japan. yeah)

I'm not getting Crazy Taxi sleeping pillows.

Music gets money by buying albums/songs.
Games get money buy buying.. well.. games.
TV shows get money by showing on the telly, which they will either I download or not.

Maybe I'm dead wrong lol but this has been my way of thinking for a long time now.

[max_cady]

Wow, I started a topic about piracy and it sorta envolved into an indepth theological discussion on personal value that each and every one of us and it goes to show that sentimental value is something that differs between individuals.

Of course, while there's sentimental value in one item, there's also a commercial value, however that one is dictated by the law of supply and demand.

And that's where video games come in. And property rights. As well, as profit.

You see, when a company produces a profit, which is the result of the amount of revenue earned minus all the expenses, it's a healhty indicator that consumers are finding value in a product and are willing to pay for it.

An excellent product translates into both profit to companies and increased value to it's customers, because the product is good.

But when it comes to piracy and bootlegging stuff, it's no easy task. It can't be resolved in the same manner as throwing someone off a train because he didn't pay for his ticket.

[SOUP]

My basic rule, is that if I can legitimately buy it, I will.

I never buy used movies, cds, or games.
I've emulated old games in the past, but with services like the Virtual Console, and PSN, that isn't really nessecary for the most part.
I really wish there were more legitimate ways to play Panzer Dragoon Saga and Snatcher though .