Do you still like Sega?

[max_cady]

There's also an issue that's always been on the back of my mind for quite some time and it's the only thing that to me makes any damn sense about the current hostilily towards SEGA and their games in general among game journalists and the like. And it ties to SEGA as a console manufacturer.

You see when SEGA had their own proprietary hardware, all their inhouse stuff was made especifically for them and in a sense you couldn't quite compare them to any other systems at the time. It was all mostly a matter of opinion.

What's the point of arguing about Killzone being better than Gears of War? Both games are great in their own right and they are tailored to their own specific crowds. I have a feeling that if somehow Gears of War was a 3rd party title and had been released on the PS3, it would've not been treated so kindly as a 1st party title would be.

Had games like Binary Domain, HOTD: Overkill, Condemned: Criminal Origins, Resonance of Fate and others had been released on a SEGA system they would most likely be treated with far more respect than what they have today. Because they would be first party titles and as such as entitled to get as much attention as possible.

Take Binary Domain, which is good by it's own merits, but as a third party title, it has to distinguish itself from the massive clutter of existing third person shooters, even worse it has to compared to every single one of them, whereras had it been a first party title in SEGA's hypothetical console, it wouldn't be compared directly to games such as Gears of Wars and the rest of the lot, because apart from other third party titles, it would be ranked as the best in that particular system.

You can also apply that to any of the classic Dreamcast titles, to which they only had a legendary status because of three main factors:

1- The Nintendo 64 and Playstation I were very much underpowered and were not much to look at when the Dreamcast was relased;
2- Sony's Playstation 2, Microsoft's Xbox and Nintendo's Gamecube were still far away to make a significant comparison, when the Dreamcast folded, in early 2002, the PS2 didn't have the impressive library of games it has today and the other consoles were still very much far away;
3- They were all first party titles and considering the DC's somewhat small library, by comparison they were the absolute best on the console;

Had those famous DC titles had been released on the PS2 and Gamecube, would have they been as well received on those systems as they did in their original format? Probably not.
Sonic Adventure 2 was the creme de lá creme on the Dreamcast, not so much on the Gamecube, where these type of platformers are a dime and dozen.
Headhunter was a great game on the Dreamcast, not so much when it was ported to the PS2, where titles like Metal Gear Solid 2 look so much better than this one, regardless of how good and enjoyable the former was.

Now imagine a lot of those DC titles released on XBLA and PSN, which is a far more crowded market, which is why Sonic 4: Episode II didn't meet the standards for some game journalists, because when there's stuff like Limbo, Dust: An Elysian Tail, Scoot Pligrim out there, it might look dated by comparison.

The same goes with the Yakuza series, which are good in their own right and they might dodge a wee bit more criticism because they are exclusive to one console, even though they are compared to many similar titles on that console.

It's the only thing that makes any sense as to why things are the way they are right now.

[Suzuki Yu]

of course i love them and still believe in them...
as long as AM2, Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio, Sonic Team, and the RPG teams keep making awesome titles.
just recently we got Binary Domain, THoTD4, VF5FS, PSO2 (in Japan .... soon the rest of the world) and even a great port for Jet Set Radio!
in the very near future we can look forward to SaASRT, Yakuza 5 and Demon Tribe as well as NiGHTS port.
in the Arcade front there is Border Break which is still getting massive updates from time to time since 2009 ... and many people are still begging for a console port announcement (hopefully next year).

And can anyone really say that they are fine having little to no big Sega games for the next gen consoles? Is ALIEN from Creative Assembly and Sonic really going to pacify the majority next gen? While the majority of the output is going to be download ios games that wont even recquire cutting edge tech to show off the games like the old sega use to do, still do(to an extent) and are pratically known for? I really do think that Sega is in deeper trouble than we all think and judging from past actions and results this could really be the time when the fat lady sings for Sega.

who said SEGA will only focus on Aliens & Sonic games for Next-Gen Systems?
first of all, SEGASAMMY's plan to reduce retail titles was speaking specifically about the next two years (Q2 2012 - Q1 2014)
they can't stop creating new retail titles forever! (well at least for the next 10 years) even though we are still receiving other retail titles like Rhythm Thief , Yakuza 5 and SMB:BS so you can't take what they said literally.
secondly, i don't understand why you are against the downloadable titles? in the last couple of years we have received many great arcade titles like After Burner Climax, VF5FS and THoTD4 etc..... even PSO2 is totally download free title!
digital distribution is the future. after 10 years from now all the games might be offered only digitally.
so the move to digital distribution is essential.
you said most of their releases will be on iOS .... OK nothing wrong with that since the kind of games doesn't take any real resources to make anyway...but this doesn't mean that they will not release other big titles digitally like BORDER BREAK or potentially VF6 and other Next-Gen Arcade stuff.
the TGS performance was bad i know but not "only" because the market is moving to smartphones content. but also because we are in the middle of a transition to next-gen platforms.   

[Barry the Nomad]

Thats a very good point, Max.

Had all of SEGA's titles from the past few years been on a SEGA console, they'd be at the top of the pile and would probably be deemed AAA titles. But since they have to compete with all this shit, they really get buried.

[ROJM]

of course i love them and still believe in them...
as long as AM2, Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio, Sonic Team, and the RPG teams keep making awesome titles.
just recently we got Binary Domain, THoTD4, VF5FS, PSO2 (in Japan .... soon the rest of the world) and even a great port for Jet Set Radio!
in the very near future we can look forward to SaASRT, Yakuza 5 and Demon Tribe as well as NiGHTS port.
in the Arcade front there is Border Break which is still getting massive updates from time to time since 2009 ... and many people are still begging for a console port announcement (hopefully next year).
who said SEGA will only focus on Aliens & Sonic games for Next-Gen Systems?
first of all, SEGASAMMY's plan to reduce retail titles was speaking specifically about the next two years (Q2 2012 - Q1 2014)
they can't stop creating new retail titles forever! (well at least for the next 10 years) even though we are still receiving other retail titles like Rhythm Thief , Yakuza 5 and SMB:BS so you can't take what they said literally.

secondly, i don't understand why you are against the downloadable titles? in the last couple of years we have received many great arcade titles like After Burner Climax, VF5FS and THoTD4 etc..... even PSO2 is totally download free title!
digital distribution is the future. after 10 years from now all the games might be offered only digitally.
so the move to digital distribution is essential.
you said most of their releases will be on iOS .... OK nothing wrong with that since the kind of games doesn't take any real resources to make anyway...but this doesn't mean that they will not release other big titles digitally like BORDER BREAK or potentially VF6 and other Next-Gen Arcade stuff.
the TGS performance was bad i know but not "only" because the market is moving to smartphones content. but also because we are in the middle of a transition to next-gen platforms.   

Sega themselves said they will focus on four franchises everything else is going digital. Its been common knowledge around here for a while now.

Im not talking about the arcade side of things im mainly talking about the consumer division where all the changes are happening. The arcade division has seen many cutbacks and attempts to lessen costs on creating less cutting edge hardware Ring edge isn't as cutting edge as people think. What affects one will affect the other which has happened before.

Digital maybe the future but that doesn't mean Sega will suceed in it. I think its a huge mistake by throwing everything into the digital arena before its truly arrived. We have seen this happen with Sega before and many times they managed to get out of it but recently its ben a downward spiral with Sega's attempts to go into new markets.

The digital games you are talking about are mostly from the last fiscal year. Most of Sega's DLC efforts will be on the social gaming side. As I have said in other posts they wont abandon the high end side totally but they aren't focusing on that side of the market anymore and that's a bad thing. If you think playing a 20 year old game that most people played or a five year old game like VF5 Showdown is going to pacify many Sega gamers then you in for a suprise.

And AM2 just concentrates on arcades now, RYU GA GOTOKU studio produces a game that most people outside a handful of Sega fans are intrested in while their other game sadly flopped (unless they were brave enough to do the sequel as a download) But we also all know that Sega doesn't do the common sense thing and create those type of titles for xbl or playstation. If Sega doesn't buck their ideas up then we are looking at a real great fall. You can cite the games all you want it didn't do them anygood back in the DC era because of numourous circumstances and it isn't doing that much good at the moment because of incompetent management.

[CosmicCastaway]

Do I still like SEGA? I most certainly do.

No other video game company has brought such fantastic characters and adventures as SEGA has. Ecco the Dolphin, Space Channel 5, Shining Force and of course, Sonic the Hedgehog are just a few franchises by SEGA that I adore. There is just something so unique about SEGA games and that is a big part of why I really enjoy them. I still feel hurt whenever someone hates on SEGA, because what they have brought to the world of video games means a lot to me. SEGA may have had a bit of a rough time over the past year, but I always hope the best for them and I truly can't wait to see what the future will bring. I'm a SEGA man, always have been and always will be.

[ROJM]

There's also an issue that's always been on the back of my mind for quite some time and it's the only thing that to me makes any damn sense about the current hostilily towards SEGA and their games in general among game journalists and the like. And it ties to SEGA as a console manufacturer.

You see when SEGA had their own proprietary hardware, all their inhouse stuff was made especifically for them and in a sense you couldn't quite compare them to any other systems at the time. It was all mostly a matter of opinion.

What's the point of arguing about Killzone being better than Gears of War? Both games are great in their own right and they are tailored to their own specific crowds. I have a feeling that if somehow Gears of War was a 3rd party title and had been released on the PS3, it would've not been treated so kindly as a 1st party title would be.

Had games like Binary Domain, HOTD: Overkill, Condemned: Criminal Origins, Resonance of Fate and others had been released on a SEGA system they would most likely be treated with far more respect than what they have today. Because they would be first party titles and as such as entitled to get as much attention as possible.

Take Binary Domain, which is good by it's own merits, but as a third party title, it has to distinguish itself from the massive clutter of existing third person shooters, even worse it has to compared to every single one of them, whereras had it been a first party title in SEGA's hypothetical console, it wouldn't be compared directly to games such as Gears of Wars and the rest of the lot, because apart from other third party titles, it would be ranked as the best in that particular system.

You can also apply that to any of the classic Dreamcast titles, to which they only had a legendary status because of three main factors:

1- The Nintendo 64 and Playstation I were very much underpowered and were not much to look at when the Dreamcast was relased;
2- Sony's Playstation 2, Microsoft's Xbox and Nintendo's Gamecube were still far away to make a significant comparison, when the Dreamcast folded, in early 2002, the PS2 didn't have the impressive library of games it has today and the other consoles were still very much far away;
3- They were all first party titles and considering the DC's somewhat small library, by comparison they were the absolute best on the console;

Had those famous DC titles had been released on the PS2 and Gamecube, would have they been as well received on those systems as they did in their original format? Probably not.
Sonic Adventure 2 was the creme de lá creme on the Dreamcast, not so much on the Gamecube, where these type of platformers are a dime and dozen.
Headhunter was a great game on the Dreamcast, not so much when it was ported to the PS2, where titles like Metal Gear Solid 2 look so much better than this one, regardless of how good and enjoyable the former was.

Now imagine a lot of those DC titles released on XBLA and PSN, which is a far more crowded market, which is why Sonic 4: Episode II didn't meet the standards for some game journalists, because when there's stuff like Limbo, Dust: An Elysian Tail, Scoot Pligrim out there, it might look dated by comparison.

The same goes with the Yakuza series, which are good in their own right and they might dodge a wee bit more criticism because they are exclusive to one console, even though they are compared to many similar titles on that console.

It's the only thing that makes any sense as to why things are the way they are right now.

I totally agree. Your point about BINARY DOMAIN is absolutly spot on. Especially since this has happened all before. When Sega or be it Sega of America decided to cash in on the Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat craze during the mid nineties they ended up with a game called ETERNAL CHAMPIONS, which of course is often mocked and ignored by gamers now. But during the titme of its release according to Megadrive sale estimates it outsold both Street fighter 2 champion edition and Mortal Kombat 2 by reaching 2 million in sales. Why and how did it happen? Probably because of the same reason why Nintendo games on the Wii kept outselling the competition of their own third parties, that the main reason to own a console from Nintendo was because they wanted to play games from nintendo and they were more open to any(not all0 type of game Nintendo produces over the other game makers. The same at least during the genesis era was true for Sega. Sega had many RPGs but the ones that did better were Shining Force and Phantasy Star. Sega had EA sports for a third party yet Sega Sports managed to keep up with them in sales unlike the other third party sports games on the SNES where EA outsold by a large margin. Im not saying it worked for ever game that Sega produced. But when you have gamers who are already fans of the company(which were a lot back then) who were more likely to just get mostly Sega games added to the casuals who brought the system because sega was the big thing and from that people buying it for Sonic, you have a userbase that will more likely check out Sega games first before the try anything else, in whatever circumstance. It happen still happens with nintendo. If BINARY DOMAIN even the buggy ALPHA PROTOCOL were released on a sega system they would not have only sold well but one of them would at least been a big hit.

The other thing is Sega isn't working as a third party. They really dont know how to operate on this level. Sega wasn't just about great software but about great hardware and when the console side was gone the company hasn't been the same. We only see a few glimpses of genius of software from them now while being frustrated at seeing the management blunder from one mistake to the next. Its been over a decade of third party Sega and things are getting worse. Although im not naive to think that producing a console will solve their problems or they could even produce one now, its obvious that a sega game really does need a sega system and one without the other just seems out of place not at least to sega themselves.

[Suzuki Yu]

Sega themselves said they will focus on four franchises everything else is going digital. Its been common knowledge around here for a while now.

yes but not from here onward

Given this circumstance, the companies determined that in order to actualize earnings recovery of
the Consumer Business in the following period and after and return to a growth path, it is essential
to streamline organizations in the field of home video game software in the U.S. and European
markets, while shifting to a structure that corresponds to change in environment, including
strengthening development in the field of digital content.

We conducted detailed reviews of earnings projections for titles targeted toward the U.S. and
European markets and decided to narrow down sales titles from the following period and after to
strong IPs, such as “Sonic the Hedgehog,”, “Football Manager”, “Total War” and “Aliens” which
are expected to continue posting solid earnings. In accordance with this, we are canceling the
development of some game software titles.

http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/pdf/release/20120330sega_kaikaku_e_final.pdf

[Team Andromeda]

Take Binary Domain, which is good by it's own merits, but as a third party title, it has to distinguish itself from the massive clutter of existing third person shooters, even worse it has to compared to every single one of them, whereras had it been a first party title in SEGA's hypothetical console, it wouldn't be compared directly to games such as Gears of Wars and the rest of the lot, because apart from other third party titles, it would be ranked as the best in that particular system.

? Binary Domain is bloody awesome and is way better than Gears of War 3 and rest thanks to its storyline and great little touches (like the dismemberment system) Its also one of the best looking next gen games on any system - it was sadly letdown by SEGA inept PR dept .

Anyway I still 'parts' of SEGA and its nice to see some of the Teams rise up and starting to make some genuine AAA classics for the next gen . Just hope SEGA Japan is sorting out its pipe-lines for the next -gen and getting a good multi platform/purpose engine ready and that SEGA will also bring PS0 2 to the 360 and PS3 early next year

[max_cady]

@ROJM

Shining Force II, Phantasy Star IV, Landstalker, Story of Thor... While the SNES had the Final Fantasy trilogy, Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger. In those days, the SNES probably had better roleplaying games in general, but since they were only on one system you would need to own both of 'em. Can't say I knew anyone who owned both a Super Nintendo and a SEGA Genesis those days, but you would be happy regardless of what you choosed.

But regardless, originally SEGA's plans to become a console agnostic company made sense, but the feeling I get with a lot of games, is that they should've learned from other developers and are often too late to join in. Want to properly make a new Shinobi game? Look at Ninja Gaiden, look at Ninja Blade, look at Bayonetta.

Part of what makes me upset with SEGA is that they focused way too much on the Nintendo Wii, when they should've paid more attention to the Xbox 360 and PS3 crowd. Apart from Mario & Sonic 'n' Sonic Colors, nothing that SEGA threw into that system sold or even made a dent.

Binary Domain is one of my favorite games, because it's exactly what I wanted, a huge tentpole game with great presentation, mature content (SEGA has a history of making excellent M-rated titles), cinematic. It's greatest flaw is that it's feels like it should've come out at least 2-3 years ago, when the majority of gamers were still very much into the Third Person Shooter craze, a genre which is now so predominant that it feels like walking into a supermarket and looking at 20 brands of barely discernable bag-in-box wines.

[Radrappy]

Part of what makes me upset with SEGA is that they focused way too much on the Nintendo Wii, when they should've paid more attention to the Xbox 360 and PS3 crowd. Apart from Mario & Sonic 'n' Sonic Colors, nothing that SEGA threw into that system sold or even made a dent.

Wait, how did they focus too much on the wii?  What franchises were wasted other than Sonic?  Nights?  Let me tell you, that would have been received even worse on ps3/360.  Was it let's tap that annoyed you?

Also when SA2 came out it was not in fact, treated as the creme de la creme.  I seem to remember EGM, the biggest name in video game journalism at the time (and how times have changed) gave it a modest score of 8.0,8.0,7.5

I do agree though that going third party has displaced their sense of identity in a major way. 

[MadeManG74]

I think we honestly need to stop playin the victim and thinking that websites and the media overall hate Sega or have some kind of vendetta against them. I know sometimes it seems like they are stacked against Sega, but I think we really play it up too much and use it as an excuse for everything that goes wrong.

[max_cady]

@Radrappy

No, none of the games on Wii annoyed me, at all. If anything SEGA was one of the major providers of something that was sorely lacking on the Wii: games that people like myself actually wanted to play.

It's just that none of those games sold well enough to justify SEGA's overall dedication to the Wii.

@MadeManG74

Trust me, if it's sounds like I'm making a martyr out of SEGA, I'm not. My overall point is that since the 3rd party market is so crowded and the standards have risen considerably, they as a company should step up their game.

[ROJM]

@ROJM

Shining Force II, Phantasy Star IV, Landstalker, Story of Thor... While the SNES had the Final Fantasy trilogy, Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger. In those days, the SNES probably had better roleplaying games in general, but since they were only on one system you would need to own both of 'em. Can't say I knew anyone who owned both a Super Nintendo and a SEGA Genesis those days, but you would be happy regardless of what you choosed.

But regardless, originally SEGA's plans to become a console agnostic company made sense, but the feeling I get with a lot of games, is that they should've learned from other developers and are often too late to join in. Want to properly make a new Shinobi game? Look at Ninja Gaiden, look at Ninja Blade, look at Bayonetta.

Part of what makes me upset with SEGA is that they focused way too much on the Nintendo Wii, when they should've paid more attention to the Xbox 360 and PS3 crowd. Apart from Mario & Sonic 'n' Sonic Colors, nothing that SEGA threw into that system sold or even made a dent.

Binary Domain is one of my favorite games, because it's exactly what I wanted, a huge tentpole game with great presentation, mature content (SEGA has a history of making excellent M-rated titles), cinematic. It's greatest flaw is that it's feels like it should've come out at least 2-3 years ago, when the majority of gamers were still very much into the Third Person Shooter craze, a genre which is now so predominant that it feels like walking into a supermarket and looking at 20 brands of barely discernable bag-in-box wines.

It made sense but the games they were planing for the west didn't necessarly make it out during the 2002-2004 period. Sega just brought the games that western gamers liked on the DC()or really games that were critically appauled in the west but no real strong sales to back them up) and then released it on a system whose userbase was more PC style games orientated. The other half of titles all got canned and the only real sucess Sega was having in software terms was in japan as they were releasing titles that had a lot of appeal and were proven popular in that market and continue to do. And that was really the first part of the problem because Sega started to concentrate on the japanese market and dropped their eye on the west, especially after the failures.

[loempiavreter]

I still like SEGA a bit, but stuff like Yakuza and Sonic are not my thing. Yakuza is a weird beast for me, I love Beat' em ups... but Yakuza has too much overworld... feels to much like River City Ransom, which i don't really care for either. Prefer Nagoshi's earlier work in Spikeout, creating chains of coop combo's. I did like Binary Domain, it was great and definately a neat suprised compared to the letdown that was Vanquish... It had a SEGA arcade anno 2003 feel.

I don't seem to be in tune with most SEGA fans though, for me SEGA has always been an Arcade powerhouse, the dreamcast stuff like Shenmue bore me to death. I still like all the new Shinobi titles Shinobi 3DS was brill, and so where the PS2 Shinobi and it's spin off Nightshade.

Loved the cooperation with Platinum Games except for Vanquish. MadWorld had neat Boss battles, Max Anarchy is simply brilliant and the game I fire up the most these days, Bayonetta was brill, Infinite Space was also neat somewhere for a space simulation strategy title.

I would love SEGA to port all those unported Arcade stuff (Virtua Cop 3 & co) to the PSN/XBLA whatever since the HOTD4, Afterburner Climax, Virtua Fighter 5 Final Tuned are some of the best releases in this generation... Because if it's another Sonic or Yakuza I ain't bovvered.

[semmie]

Do I still like SEGA? I most certainly do.

No other video game company has brought such fantastic characters and adventures as SEGA has. Ecco the Dolphin, Space Channel 5, Shining Force and of course, Sonic the Hedgehog are just a few franchises by SEGA that I adore. There is just something so unique about SEGA games and that is a big part of why I really enjoy them. I still feel hurt whenever someone hates on SEGA, because what they have brought to the world of video games means a lot to me. SEGA may have had a bit of a rough time over the past year, but I always hope the best for them and I truly can't wait to see what the future will bring. I'm a SEGA man, always have been and always will be.

plus 10000000000000