Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?

[ROJM]

I've had this feeling for a long time now but SONIC BOOM is the one that has prompt me in making this post. I'm not really a Sonic fan. I feel Sonic is the result of so many games from Sega that they became experts at. Taking an existing style of game and turning it on its head to create a new type of game experience. This is what made many of the consumer and arcade dept developers such legends in the game industry. Titles such as VIRTUA FIGHTER...STREETS OF RAGE...and OUTRUN are the examples of this method from Sega..time and time again. What made the character stick though was the brilliant marketing devised by Sega America nad Sega west...which sold Sonic's character to the public. The combination of this and the solid game from Sonic Team..resulted in a Sega character that stuck in the minds of millions across the western world...for the first time..really..instead of being a game made by SOJ that was good...was popular for a few months...but then everyone apart from the fans...forgot about it.
During the megadrive era..Sega was careful on how they treated the character in their main games. Sure there were rubbish Sonic titles back then but they were often relegated on the Game Gear and such...the main titles in the series always had a level of quality.
But during the saturn era that had changed. And in my opinon it still carrying on.
I'm comparing Sonic to how Sega treats its other franchises at the moment. YAKUZA is the best example. YAKUZA however people like to say about it has a certain level of quality to them including the stand alone spin off games. YAKUZA makes money for Sega in japan and asia..but they make sure the studio behind them is firmly in the hot seat with Nagoshi personally over seeing it. Now that didn't really happen with Sonic since Sega went third party. Sonic is still popular. And he is still responsible of some of the big sales in the package market that Sega is withdrawing from..especially in the west where the majority of their big sales come from in this field.
Yet the character has been subjected to various different developing houses...poor western teams knocking out a cheap game..and virtually ignored when it comes to marketing. The people who can make a good Sonic game... aren't given the oppurtunity to do a big Sonic title...mainly DIMPS and Sumo Digital. This adds to the other point. When Sumo D was hired to create a Sega mascots game with Sonic in the lead it became a succesful title..but the first title never saw a release in Japan itself.
The saturn era is really when this contempt seem to show itself. A system that became Sega's first succesful game system in Japan and asia..and not a Sonic game in sight. Other titles were more important to SOJ than Sonic was.  To pacify people they released two titles that were SONIC 3D and SONIC JAM and SONIC R..which was the best of the bunch. But no actual proper main Sonic title. That is like Nintendo not releasing a main Mario game on the SNES after their succesful first system. And the Megadrive/Genesis while not Sega's first system was Sega's first succesful system worldwide mainly in the west. And instead of cementing that fact they relegated him to a few side titles...
The DC addresed that and Sonic proved that he had the goods in his DC outings and its sales..but it was too late because the apathy had set in and the Sony propaganda and brainwashing of the masses were too strong for Sega to compete properly as well as the continuing incompetence of SOJ.
The third party era..has been a topsy turvy ride....no one in SOJ seemed bothered to focus on delevering a proper Sonic title..not even Naka himself. BILLY HATCHER got more beter attention than Sonic has during that time and that was a flop.
 
The only time when the quality of Sonic went up was when Nintendo was involved during the Olympic team ups. Is it a coincedence that SONIC GENERATIONS..SONIC COLORS SONIC AND THE SECRET RINGS considerd to be the beter Sonic games of the recent era came out during that same period? Did Sega have to up their game when Nintendo was invoved directly? I dunno...judging on the last two titles..SONIC LOST WORLDS ..which is effectivly SONIC XTREME and also looks like a saturn game too..and SONIC BOOM which so far looks like something out of Spyro the dragon..poor designs and a poor look overall. Sega can't be bothered to market these titles themselves and somehow gave it to Nintendo who i'm sure are regreting making that deal with Sega. Looking at how other titles from SOJ are treated its very poor considering what the character has made for Sega historically. I won't go into the sham that was SONIC 4 and some of the other mobile games. While there has ben good Sonic titles they are few and far between. Sega is a big corporate company who knows how to maintain the quality of a lng runing series when they want to. VIRTUA FIGHTER is a perfect example of that..and Yu Suzuki hasn't been around in years. Sonic on the other hand hasn't. Anyone can see the guy in charge of ST at the moment is more concerned with PHANTASY STAR and isn't capable of leading a team like that in the first place..since SOJ has more control over PS. He's had more misses than hits..NIGHTS 2 is another good example..missing the point of the original...and character of the game....that helped tarnish the NIGHTS legacy. I'm saying this because Sega hasn't ran their other big game franchises into theground...from SAKURA TAISEN to even STREETS OF RAGE had the care and atention to maintain the quality of their series. Sonic doesn't get that. MIKU and YAKUZA and a few others from SOJ does. Its obvious that there is more of a problem with Sonic being their character rather than a problem to create a good solid character. Sega knows who to go to to make a good sonic game..yet they haven't..and its obviously deliberate.   
 

 

[DreamsDied13101]

The Sonic franchise is not as big of a money maker for Sega in Japan as the revenue they gain from UK, USA and other markets.


Now does that mean that Sega of Japan should have abandoned Sonic or allowed companies to tarnish Sonic's image? I think the problem might be more mismanagement of Sonic than outright disdain for the character. I think Sega of Japan's biggest problem is that they expect revenue and popularity of Sonic that they saw in the 90's yet they continually hand him over to incompetent companies (who have no vested interest in his success or failure) and let them do what they want with the brand.


Even with the new series, Sonic Boom, they said they wanted it created for a western audience with really no intention of releasing the series in Japan. They are hoping that the series will bring Sonic back to the popularity he once held in America/UK. They believe the same with the upcoming Sony film (which from the sounds of it will hopefully never get off the ground or at least hopefully they will get a new team involved with it).

[CrazyT]

What i'd like to know is, did the sonicteam which made sonic games from sonic adventure 2 and on, have the same team as the sonicteam's which made phantasy star online for example? Because the difference in quality is huge. I went back playing sa2 the other day and when I was thinking it was pretty bad then, now everything just sticks out even more. This is very different from all the timeless games SEGA made including phantasy star online.

It just seems like sonic games sonicteam was never a well organized team after going 3D. Safe for sonic adventure 1 having redeeming qualities.

[DreamsDied13101]

What i'd like to know is, did the sonicteam which made sonic games from sonic adventure 2 and on, have the same team as the sonicteam's which made phantasy star online for example? Because the difference in quality is huge. I went back playing sa2 the other day and when I was thinking it was pretty bad then, now everything just sticks out even more. This is very different from all the timeless games SEGA made including phantasy star online.

It just seems like sonic games sonicteam was never a well organized team after going 3D. Safe for sonic adventure 1 having redeeming qualities.

I think Sonic Adventure 2 was a different Sonic Team than the team that developed Phantasy Star Online. The team that did Sonic Adventure 2 I think was even a different team than the one that made Sonic Adventure.

[Radrappy]

What i'd like to know is, did the sonicteam which made sonic games from sonic adventure 2 and on, have the same team as the sonicteam's which made phantasy star online for example? Because the difference in quality is huge. I went back playing sa2 the other day and when I was thinking it was pretty bad then, now everything just sticks out even more. This is very different from all the timeless games SEGA made including phantasy star online.

It just seems like sonic games sonicteam was never a well organized team after going 3D. Safe for sonic adventure 1 having redeeming qualities.

I want to say that SA2 was the first game made by what would later be called Sonic Team USA, a smaller arm of the company devoted to developing games like Heroes, Shadow, and Nights Journey of Dreams.  I don't know how big a staff they had working on those games, but I imagine it was smaller than the one that worked on SA1 or PSO.  SA1 was made in considerably less time than either of those two games as well. 

[Aki-at]

I think SEGA Japan still sees Sonic as a valued brand, it just so happens that their poor management of the IP has lead to diminishing sales. But I do think that next year with an in house SEGA Japan Sonic title and Sonic Boom in full swing (not to mention the film by Marza.) could potentially be a massive year for Sonic since the team behind the games really are learning how to not screw up their games heh.

What i'd like to know is, did the sonicteam which made sonic games from sonic adventure 2 and on, have the same team as the sonicteam's which made phantasy star online for example? Because the difference in quality is huge. I went back playing sa2 the other day and when I was thinking it was pretty bad then, now everything just sticks out even more. This is very different from all the timeless games SEGA made including phantasy star online.

It just seems like sonic games sonicteam was never a well organized team after going 3D. Safe for sonic adventure 1 having redeeming qualities.

Most of SEGA's stuff is interchangeable these days. So whilst those people might still be at SEGA, they've moved around to help develop Yakuza games, Dengaki, Puyo,  Miku etc.

The majority of the team that handled Sonic Unleashed onwards are mostly a new team too.

[crackdude]

I went back playing sa2 the other day and when I was thinking it was pretty bad then

Was it?

GamePro:
"The game is sweet music to all of your senses, combining visual and audio splendor to a degree that few adventures have achieved. This is one classic for the Dreamcast library that no one will forget."

IGN:
"If this is the last Sonic game in these declining Dreamcast years, it's satisfying to know that the DC didn't go out with a bang, but with a sonic boom."

GameSpot:
"The ghosts of those original 2D Sonic titles are exorcised in the game's amazing pace, heart-pounding platform jumping action, and in the unyielding barrage of creatively designed levels. "

Planet Dreamcast:
"This is without a doubt one of the best 3D platformers I have ever played on the Dreamcast, or on any other console for that matter."

And finally, EGM
"Sonic’s only real problem is the god-awful camera control."
Which is the absolute truth.

SA2 was bloody great when it came out in 2001. It's pretty normal it sucks nowadays since it's almost 14 years old. But don't jump on the "3D SONIC WAS SHIT BACK IN THE DAY TOO" bandwagon, because it wasn't.

Yes, I'm mad.

[Barry the Nomad]

Sonic Adventure 2 was praised back in the day, the camera was the only sticking point for many reviewers.

Also, Radrappy is right about Sonic Team USA. Phantasy Star Online was largely developed by the team responsible for the first Sonic Adventure.

[Radrappy]

SA2 was bloody great when it came out in 2001. It's pretty normal it sucks nowadays since it's almost 14 years old. But don't jump on the "3D SONIC WAS SHIT BACK IN THE DAY TOO" bandwagon, because it wasn't.

Yes, I'm mad.

I honestly didn't like SA2 when it came out.  It sat unfinished on my shelf for quite some time.  I remember it got relatively bad reviews from EGM (did it even win a silver award?) and that SA2:B was almost universally panned less than a year later.  This really lends to the narrative that people were only kind to it given that it was one of the DC's last games at the time.  Looks like that charity wore off pretty damn fast. 

[crackdude]

I honestly didn't like SA2 when it came out.  It sat unfinished on my shelf for quite some time.  I remember it got relatively bad reviews from EGM (did it even win a silver award?) and that SA2:B was almost universally panned less than a year later.  This really lends to the narrative that people were only kind to it given that it was one of the DC's last games at the time.  Looks like that charity wore off pretty damn fast. 

Again, not true. I just posted reviews of the time. It was praised.
Of course I'm not saying everyone loved it. But it was NOT criticized nearly as much as over a decade of LIES would make you believe.

SA2:B was moderately well received.. 7/10 game.

People were kind to it because "new-gen" gaming hadn't kick in yet.
2001 was the turning point year in gaming, with Final Fantasy X, GTA 3 and Halo coming out the same year. People started looking at games in a different light. Production values went through the roof, and only AAA games got 9/10's from then on out.

Today people seem to forget that the Dreamcast has more in common with the PS1 era than the PS2's. But people still look back at the DC games and try to fit them in the context of games released from 02-06. They don't.

So yeah, in it's context SA2 was like a goodbye to an entire generation, completely eclipsed by a new wave of fresh premium top notch experiences.

[Team Andromeda]

The saturn era is really when this contempt seem to show itself. A system that became Sega's first succesful game system in Japan and asia..and not a Sonic game in sight. Other titles were more important to SOJ than Sonic was

You know full well that SOJ had 3 Sonic games in development for the Saturn under Project Sonic . Sadly Saturn Sonic Adv was moved up to DC development and only Sonic R ever made it out (neither did Sonic fighters), but a true Sonic game was in development for the Saturn with the Sonic Team japanese staff . Sure maybe the Team should have been made to work on the title before NiGHTS (and not after it ) but the team most prob had Sonic burnout after making so many Sonic games on the MD in such a short space in time , and wanted to try something new. Plus the Saturn hardware was not the best suited to a true 3D Sonic game and so the team would have needed plenty of time to study the Hardware to see the kind of worlds they could make

The only time when the quality of Sonic went up was when Nintendo was involved during the Olympic team ups. I

I would take issue with that as to me Sonic and Mario Olympics are terrible sports based games and Sonic games did have a decent level of quality until Sonic 06 . To me the likes of Sonic Heroes weren't that bad and while everyone goes on about Shadow , people need to remember that wasn't even a Sonic title at all . To me the mains issues that a lot of Sonic games suffer from are the stupid set in stone release dates that means each Sonic game needs to ship before Christmas and the team aren't given a soft release date  and then this daft focus on other characters instead of making a Sonic game based only on Sonic and around Sonic .


SEGA and Sonic Team have sorted out some of those troubles to be fair though .   

[Aki-at]

SA2 was bloody great when it came out in 2001. It's pretty normal it sucks nowadays since it's almost 14 years old. But don't jump on the "3D SONIC WAS SHIT BACK IN THE DAY TOO" bandwagon, because it wasn't.

Yes, I'm mad.

If we were talking solely about the Sonic/Shadow sections (The Green Hill Zone was absolutely brilliant and a blueprint of almost how to design a Sonic level in 3D) and the chao raising was great. But the dark storyline (I will admit though some of the cutscenes was really well done.) was very offputting for me and so was the other gameplay types just dragged down what could have been a great experience down.

I feel like it is a 5/10 game and the reason it got such high reviews was both the hype pre-release (Sonic was still a big IP then.) and furthermore it was a core game for the Dreamcast. Still if they kept working and tweaking that Sonic engine we would have had some wonderful games in the future, I felt it was almost as tight as Sonic should have been in 3D, but it was ditched for Sonic Heroes for some reason.

[MadeManG74]

I remember when Sonic Adventure 2 came out, Official Dreamcast Magazine actually issued an apology to their readers that the game was so poor.

It was so bad that Sega actually got sued by people who bought the game and LOST. The money they spent re compensating people who bought the game meant they had to cease production of Dreamcast (which was doubling Playstation 1 and 2 sales COMBINED at the time) and Shenmue III was cancelled (production of Jack Lumber continued).

The game got positive reviews because Sega bribed most major review outlets. If you check their actual reviews it's clear they didn't play the game, with all of them being variations of some PR that Sega sent them (complete with 'TM' each time the word 'Sonic' and 'Sega' were used) or they were inane prattle that had little to nothing to do with the game. I recall EDGE magazine giving the game a 9.63 out of 10 and stating 'The game is fun and rewarding in it's intricate yet simple gameplay. There is never a dull or not-fun moment. The tennis section... was fun.'

I still remember when I first played the game, I put the disc in the tray expecting another orgasmic experience on the level of the greatest game ever made, trembling, I dropped the GD-ROM several times before I could put it in to the wonder-console. I was surprised when the game took thirty-eight minutes and twelve seconds to load the title screen, but I imagined it would be worth the wait.

Well let me tell you, I was wrong. The game was so terrible I still can't fully believe it. Contrary to what Edge magazine would have me believe, the game was definitely not not-fun. I would even go so far as to say it was absolutely not-fun. Sonic controlled like a steak and kidney pie moving through congealed apple bramble, and the game would randomly crash to desktop in the middle of the first level. Which was especially bizarre considering the Dreamcast never had a desktop to speak of. When I finally navigated the rather alien Windows 98 with nothing but my Dreamcast pad and arcade stick peripheral and reinstalled this malicious piece of software, I had to wait another obscene amount of time for the game to load.

Upon loading I was met with a notification telling me the game needed to download a 3GB patch! Considering I only had 15 blocks left on my VMU I declined. Now I don't know if this patch greatly improved the game or not, but I never found out, and frankly I think it's disgusting that they would allow a patch so early, a full month before the game was officially released (I got the game early because my dad works for Nintendo).

I finally made it to the end of the first level. After zipping through the level through sheer luck and using some cheat codes I'd found in the latest Official Sega Saturn Magazine (I was surprised they worked, considering the cheats were for 'Blam! Machinehead') the level cut to a cut-scene that lasted about twenty six minutes of Sonic and Shadow arguing about a Chaos Ruby or some nonsense I was prompted to play a mission as Tails, who I believe is some type of rodent. I turned the game off in disgust when I realised he was not a rodent at all, but rather, some kind of horrible sin against nature that is part robot with comically large legs.

The fact is, this game was never good.

Don't even get me started on how bad Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 2 are. I just wish Sega would go back to their roots and make a sequel to the first Sonic game ever made, 'Sonic the Hedgehog One' on Master System (Master System is older than Mega Drive, which recieved a port of the game afterwards. It was okay, but missing the hang-glider segments, which was integral to the plotline).

[Radrappy]

Again, not true. I just posted reviews of the time. It was praised.
Of course I'm not saying everyone loved it. But it was NOT criticized nearly as much as over a decade of LIES would make you believe.

I know the reviews were initially positive (save for egm).  Im saying that everyone was overly generous at the time because it was the DC's swan song.  Why do you think SA2:B, the same game with extra features reviewed so much lower (a full 2/3 points in most cases) only 9 months later?  I don't buy your theory about differences in hardware between generations explaining it.  The ps2 and gc wouldn't release games that blew DC games out of the water from a technical standpoint for years to come. Rayman 2 was widely considered to be the superior version of the game across all hardware, including the ps2. 

And even then, no one in their right mind would compare Sa2 to Halo or FFX.  Ironically, FFX didn't really stand the test of time either and I frequently see people calling it out for being the first game that started ruining the franchise.

Sa2 was overrated when it came out due to the context when it was released.  SA2:B is proof of this.  It was always a 6-7/10 quality game.  The editor of DC ign even admitted to overrating the game when he scored it so highly soon after he moved on.  Good gravy, SA2 only came out 9 months after the original.  I have a hard time wrapping my head around how poorly it scored in comparison.  It's fascinating. 

Today people seem to forget that the Dreamcast has more in common with the PS1 era than the PS2's. But people still look back at the DC games and try to fit them in the context of games released from 02-06. They don't.


So yeah, in it's context SA2 was like a goodbye to an entire generation, completely eclipsed by a new wave of fresh premium top notch experiences.

Again, this is bogus.  PSO, Skies of Arcadia, Jet Set Radio, and even Grandia 2 were considered great games long after games like FFX or Halo came out.  That's like saying games like OoT were held to a different standard when they came out.  They weren't.  Good games were still good games, and some were overrated or underrated when they came out.  Sa2 happens to be the former. 

[Aki-at]

Oh my kidneys, that post was pure comedic poetry.