Author Topic: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?  (Read 59529 times)

Offline Barry the Nomad

  • *
  • Posts: 8806
  • Total Meseta: 713
  • Let's Post!
    • SEGAbits
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 02:17:10 pm »
We've been without a forum crazy person for so long that it was nice to see Mademan's post. Now I want some rap lyrics and sexist rants about women-like men, and then some tips for how to live in a cabin.

Offline crackdude

  • *
  • Posts: 4256
  • Total Meseta: 64
  • Nintendo Bling
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 06:50:31 pm »
1) The ps2 and gc wouldn't release games that blew DC games out of the water from a technical standpoint for years to come.

2) And even then, no one in their right mind would compare Sa2 to Halo or FFX. 

3) Again, this is bogus.  PSO, Skies of Arcadia, Jet Set Radio, and even Grandia 2 were considered great games long after games like FFX or Halo came out.   
1) I never said so.

2) I didn't. I said games shifted focus away from games like Crash Bandicoot and Sonic Adventure. The mere fact that you think they are so incomparable makes my point perfectly valid.

3) Yea, that's why we have had successful sequels for all those games!! Right guys? ...guys

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that the focus shift in gameplay styles in the industry was a real thing, and directly affected player's perceptions on gaming and their concept of what makes a good game.

And that would explain why Dreamcast games were well reviewed in the past and now people are nostalgic about them, but when they get rereleased it's a big bunch of meh from the press and fans. Which in turn leads people to retroactively say shit like "it sucked back in the day too".

They didn't. Think about it.

Your "reviewers just didn't want to be mean to a dying console" theory is bogus. I would be inclined to partially agree with Aki and say the hype contributed, but the simple fact that the hype was there at all (when was the last time everyone but nintendo fans got hyped for a platformer?) can link that theory to mine.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 06:55:09 pm by crackdude »
SEG4GES

Offline DreamsDied13101

  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Total Meseta: 5
  • Dreams Died on 1/31/01
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2014, 12:41:26 am »
This thread has gone way off topic, but the PS2 and Xbox changed gaming when they first released. (The PS2 way more than the Xbox, but both ushered in a new era of gaming - I would give the Xbox more credit, but they just copied what Sega did with the Dreamcast and made it profitable).

I clearly remember when the PS2 first hit shelves and I scoffed at it. Not only did I already have my $1,000 DVD player hooked up and I had the coolest game system with the Dreamcast - what would I need the PS2 for?

When I first saw Dead or Alive running on PS2 I laughed. This new jagged looking piece of garbage is the next generation? Yet when Final Fantasy X hit shelves a year later I knew something had changed.

Dreamcast looked old all of a sudden. The Gamecube did too.

It wasn't a game changer like Atari 2600 to NES or SMS, but there was a big change all of a sudden.

So to get back to my original point though. When Sonic Adventure first hit shelves it was amazing to see in action. It took what Mario 64 did for 2d games conversion to 3d and then made them fast and pretty. Sonic Adventure 2 game out just a short time later and was still amazing for the time. That time was short lived though because the new hardware and game experiences literally coming out months later were so far beyond that all of a sudden Sonic Adventure seemed like 10 years old in a blink of an eye.

Personally I still love my Dreamcast way more than my PS2, but there is no denying that Dreamcast just didn't have enough under the hood. And there was no way they were going to be able to upgrade the hardware to compete because they had to buy all of their chipsets and tech from outside companies. Sony had the DVD advantage working for them (not to mention some cash in the bank to fund any losses they took from their hardware division).

Offline Team Andromeda

  • *
  • Posts: 2050
  • Total Meseta: 39
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2014, 04:42:49 am »
Quote
The game got positive reviews because Sega bribed most major review outlets. If you check their actual reviews it's clear they didn't play the game, with all of them being variations of some PR that Sega sent them (complete with 'TM' each time the word 'Sonic' and 'Sega' were used) or they were inane prattle that had little to nothing to do with the game. I recall EDGE magazine giving the game a 9.63 out of 10 and stating 'The game is fun and rewarding in it's intricate yet simple gameplay. There is never a dull or not-fun moment. The tennis section... was fun.


I take it you are doing a wind up ? I still have the Edge magazine and Sonic Adv 2 scored a 7 out 10 for starters in EDGE mag (Issue #100). So I have to say,  its clear you didn't read the EDGE review (plus there's nothing about Tennis) and I guess you're must also be on about the USA official Dreamcast mag too, because the official UK mag tells a different story too




Anyway looking over that  I have to say that far too many praise up the 16 bit Sonic games to be something they are not ; They were far from the best Platform games in the 16 bit days and where the likes of Revenge Of Shinobi, Quackshot (such a overlooked game) Ghost N Ghouls, Mickey Mouse  COI were far far better Platform games for me 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:44:25 am by Team Andromeda »
Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
One of the best 3D shooting games available
Presented for your pleasure

Offline ROJM

  • *
  • Posts: 2519
  • Total Meseta: 31
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 05:47:08 am »
Quote
You know full well that SOJ had 3
Sonic games in development for the Saturn under Project Sonic . Sadly Saturn
Sonic Adv was moved up to DC development and only Sonic R ever made it out
(neither did Sonic fighters), but a true Sonic game was in development for the
Saturn with the Sonic Team japanese staff . Sure maybe the Team should have been made to work on the title
before NiGHTS (and not after it ) but the team most prob had Sonic burnout after
making so many Sonic games on the MD in such a short space in time , and wanted
to try something new. Plus the Saturn hardware was not the best suited to a true
3D Sonic game and so the team would have needed plenty of time to study the
Hardware to see the kind of worlds they could make


Don't give me that hogwash. Burnout? Sonic was a joint effort by the time the Saturn was around..between Sonic Team USA and Sonic Team Japan. How can they be burnt out when the MD games weren't big productions compared to what a Saturn game production was? Its nonsense. SOJ had no real intention of delivering a proper Sonic game..if they had they would have had one ready by the time of launch..just like they did with DC..and that was down to of necessity not because they wanted to. The fact that CLOCKWORK KNIGHT which was touterd as a new mascot was ready to go but had a sequel and a side game which was to expolit the popular Bomberman game that was succesful for Saturn. Shouldn't that have been Sonic rather than Clockwork Knight?  SOJ didn't want Sonic because it was deemede to american especially when the success of the character was tied to the americans as well as japan. They wanted to start fresh..they wanted to prove that they could create a succesful system on their own. They wanted to prove they could create a new mascot as big as sonic..on their own....And it ultimatly failed....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:53:02 am by ROJM »

Offline CrazyT

  • *
  • Posts: 2789
  • Total Meseta: 100
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 06:13:46 am »
Thanks for the answers guys
Was it?

GamePro:
"The game is sweet music to all of your senses, combining visual and audio splendor to a degree that few adventures have achieved. This is one classic for the Dreamcast library that no one will forget."

IGN:
"If this is the last Sonic game in these declining Dreamcast years, it's satisfying to know that the DC didn't go out with a bang, but with a sonic boom."

GameSpot:
"The ghosts of those original 2D Sonic titles are exorcised in the game's amazing pace, heart-pounding platform jumping action, and in the unyielding barrage of creatively designed levels. "

Planet Dreamcast:
"This is without a doubt one of the best 3D platformers I have ever played on the Dreamcast, or on any other console for that matter."

And finally, EGM
"Sonic’s only real problem is the god-awful camera control."
Which is the absolute truth.

SA2 was bloody great when it came out in 2001. It's pretty normal it sucks nowadays since it's almost 14 years old. But don't jump on the "3D SONIC WAS SHIT BACK IN THE DAY TOO" bandwagon, because it wasn't.

Yes, I'm mad.
Usually when games age the way sa2 did then it can be argued that they were never really that great. The game got incredible reviews, but a lot of things felt like a step back from sa1. I remember when we got the game and my brother chose the dark/evil story first. Now imagine anticipating sa2 with all your life and the first things you're forced to do is a lame boss with shadow and then a stage with robotnik. I think I was like 11 and even I was like "wtf is this shit"(lol). But then i definitly enjoyed my time with it , especially when it got re released on the gamecube.

Then i played it the other day and eveyrything just stood out. The lame robotnik vs tails bosses, the bosses in general, the okayish level design, the cheap shots and deaths or  the heavy feel of the characters. And I dont mean pinball physics weight heavy, but they feel like tanks on straight paths unless you spindash. The light weight stuff that was left in sonic adventure 1 which was very reminiscing of sonic's early concepts and most prominintly in the ova was really well captured by sonic adventure 1. Not only by the controls and feel, but also the fantastic level design. Sonic adventure 1 aint the best of games either(full of glitches), but the level design is still really strong, the music also is a lot more varied and inspired than sa2.

No offense brah I know you like sa2 :p. Just for discussion sake and realization that i may have been playing pretty bad 3d sonic games lol. I think we can all at least agree that sonic deserves a much better team. Here have a picture of a deformed president http://38.media.tumblr.com/cfda5838afecf8a5671b3fa45040c658/tumblr_mk359xV7Om1qd09iko2_400.png.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:42:02 am by CrazyT »

Offline Team Andromeda

  • *
  • Posts: 2050
  • Total Meseta: 39
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 07:26:40 am »

Quote
Don't give me that hogwash. Burnout? Sonic was a joint effort by the time the Saturn was around.

Yes burnout and the team getting bored of making the same game all the time . In the space of 4 years we had 5 main Sonic games and the planned Sonic IV scrapped and when it came to the main Sonic games on the Mega Drive and Mega CD it was the work on Japanese Team both in the USA and Japan even in STI (where the Japanese team worked on different floor and did most of design and coding) .  Teams do like to get concepts and new games off the ground and try new stuff .


I'll not often give credit to Nintendo , but they give EAD a huge time frame to make each new entry in Mario Platform games and it tends to show in the games and the design .

Quote
SOJ had no real intention of delivering a proper Sonic game..if they had they would have had one ready by the time of launch..just like they did with DC

This is what does my head in , For starters everyone knows Sonic Adv was 1st in development for the Saturn (bar you)  and this  confirmed in Retro gamer that was the case by Iizuka-san . And for someone who's claims to be this bastion of SEGA knowledge a fan even of Sega Saturn mag . I'll just point you too a few things  SEGA Japan did have a main Sonic game in development for the Saturn , those are facts ..







[url=https://flic.kr/p/oPEbrm]


[url=https://flic.kr/p/oPH98r]


[url=https://flic.kr/p/pu7mCj]
[/url][/url][/url]
Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
One of the best 3D shooting games available
Presented for your pleasure

Offline CrazyT

  • *
  • Posts: 2789
  • Total Meseta: 100
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 07:33:25 am »
Love thos magazine pictures thanks TA :)

Offline MadeManG74

  • *
  • Posts: 5522
  • Total Meseta: 1327
  • Hot, Wild Vision
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 08:11:53 am »

I take it you are doing a wind up ? I still have the Edge magazine and Sonic Adv 2 scored a 7 out 10 for starters in EDGE mag (Issue #100). So I have to say,  its clear you didn't read the EDGE review (plus there's nothing about Tennis) and I guess you're must also be on about the USA official Dreamcast mag too, because the official UK mag tells a different story too

Do you have a single fact to back that up? Talk is cheap and right now you're averaging about a wooden nickel per word my friend.
7/10 adjusted for inflation is a clear 9.36/10 at LEAST. It might even be a 9/9 if we adjusted the review score like OXM (Official Xbox Magazine) did when Halo 2 came out and revolutionised the Xbox Magazine Reviewing landscape.
Anyway, if you didn't like the tennis segment then congratulations, because the tennis segment was poor. Incredibly bad even. Yes, yes, you could use the fishing peripheral to play it, but that doesn't count for much when it would result in you breaking furniture by the Ikea-load because Sega didn't have the foresight to develop the wrist-strap that would later revolutionise the motion control landscape.  ::) ::)
But more importantly, it's clear that nobody in the world actually liked Sonic Adventure 2. Why else would Sega issue free copies of the greatly improved 'Sonic Adventure 2: Battle' to anyone who brought in a reciept for Sonic Adventure 2 into EB Games (or Game Stop for our North American cousins)? Sonic Adventure 2: Battle (Henceforth referred to as SA2B) fixed most, but not all of the mistakes that made the original such a travesty. It would go on to recieve rave reviews from major fansites and professional reviewers alike. Check out this REFERENCED excerpt review for the game:


Quote
...flawless...Sonic
http://www.metacritic.com/game/gamecube/sonic-adventure-2-battle

There you have it. Flawless Sonic. Flawless Sonic means a Sonic game without faults. This has not been matched since, and only goes to show that by comparison Sonic Adventure 2 Vanilla was dog-shit that desecrated the up-to-that-point revolutionary Sonic landscape.

Quote
Anyway looking over that  I have to say that far too many praise up the 16 bit Sonic games to be something they are not ; They were far from the best Platform games in the 16 bit days and where the likes of Revenge Of Shinobi, Quackshot (such a overlooked game) Ghost N Ghouls, Mickey Mouse  COI were far far better Platform games for me 


Finally some sense! The 16-bit games were all overshadowed by Sonic the Hedgehog One on Master System, the original game. The spin-offs on Mega Drive like Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic 2: The Hedgehog were just pale imitations.


I will give them credit for inventing boss fights in Sonic The Hedgehog One, which was actually a programming error when an intern lost some code and accidentally made Robotnik stronger than any other enemy in the game. This was used to wonderful effect in Revenge of Shinobi which also contained one boss. It's a shame they didn't incorporate more bosses into that game, as I feel it could have been a winner if it did so, possibly revolutionising the action-game landscape. I was curious though as to why there were so many Ninjas in the game instead of Shinobis. Perhaps it was a translation error?

Offline Aki-at

  • *
  • Posts: 3160
  • Total Meseta: 61
  • The Dragon
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 08:25:06 am »
Mang is better as a crazy person than a rational person.

Just don't lose yourself down the rabbit hole.

Also Sonic the Hedgehog 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles > Almost all platformers from the 16 bit era. Level design speaks their worth alone.

Offline ROJM

  • *
  • Posts: 2519
  • Total Meseta: 31
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 10:15:16 am »
Yes burnout blah blah blah.

And here we go twisting again. I never said they weren't made..i said intention. Does Nintendo never have a Mario game near launch? Did Hudson or Sony never had their mascot or premier title available near Launch? Sonic Jam as everyone KNOWS came WAY late in the day. That meant that they had NO INTENTION of really going ahead with a Sonic title until they had to. I argued this already and won it since you couldn't argue why they never had one at launch. Burnout is an excuse and you know it. Especially when the sonic games was spilt between two teams from japan and america. So don't bother post old magazines as a point that you're correct because you can't explain properly why SOJ didn't have a game ready for or near launch. If you think SONIC JAM was an adequate title when it was nothing but an sonic game with extras then you are more deluded than i actually thought.

Offline ROJM

  • *
  • Posts: 2519
  • Total Meseta: 31
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 10:16:27 am »
Quote

Do you have a single fact to back that up? Talk is cheap and right now you're averaging about a wooden nickel per word my friend.
7/10 adjusted for inflation is a clear 9.36/10 at LEAST. It might even be a 9/9 if we adjusted the review score like OXM (Official Xbox Magazine) did when Halo 2 came out and revolutionised the Xbox Magazine Reviewing landscape.
Anyway, if you didn't like the tennis segment then congratulations, because the tennis segment was poor. Incredibly bad even. Yes, yes, you could use the fishing peripheral to play it, but that doesn't count for much when it would result in you breaking furniture by the Ikea-load because Sega didn't have the foresight to develop the wrist-strap that would later revolutionise the motion control landscape.  ::) ::)
But more importantly, it's clear that nobody in the world actually liked Sonic Adventure 2. Why else would Sega issue free copies of the greatly improved 'Sonic Adventure 2: Battle' to anyone who brought in a reciept for Sonic Adventure 2 into EB Games (or Game Stop for our North American cousins)? Sonic Adventure 2: Battle (Henceforth referred to as SA2B) fixed most, but not all of the mistakes that made the original such a travesty. It would go on to recieve rave reviews from major fansites and professional reviewers alike. Check out this REFERENCED excerpt review for the game:




And let's not forget the context of the situation. Sega needed SONIC ADVENTURE 2 to be a hit. It needed people to buy more DC's at that time because Sony was winning the battle from the get go. So i wouldn't be surprised if they had gone out and bribed people especially at the climate where most magazines were hostile against Sega.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:18:41 am by ROJM »

Offline Team Andromeda

  • *
  • Posts: 2050
  • Total Meseta: 39
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 10:53:11 am »
Quote
Do you have a single fact to back that up? Talk is cheap and right now you're averaging about a wooden nickel per word my friend.7/10 adjusted for inflation is a clear 9.36/10 at LEAST. It might even be a 9/9 if we adjusted the review score like OXM (Official Xbox Magazine) did when Halo 2 came out and revolutionised the Xbox Magazine Reviewing landscape.



Yes ... Here you go . 7 out of 10 and not a mention of tennis in the review
::)







[url=https://flic.kr/p/puc5io]





[/url]
[/font][/color]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:59:20 am by Team Andromeda »
Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
One of the best 3D shooting games available
Presented for your pleasure

Offline Team Andromeda

  • *
  • Posts: 2050
  • Total Meseta: 39
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 10:57:43 am »
And here we go twisting again. I never said they weren't made..i said intention.

Not twisting you were quite clear . Just setting the facts straight that's all . Like I said all along SOJ had a major Sega Saturn Sonic game in development , sadly it got pushed up to Dreamcast development
Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
One of the best 3D shooting games available
Presented for your pleasure

Offline MadeManG74

  • *
  • Posts: 5522
  • Total Meseta: 1327
  • Hot, Wild Vision
Re: Why does SOJ show Sonic such contempt?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 11:08:01 am »
And let's not forget the context of the situation. Sega needed SONIC ADVENTURE 2 to be a hit. It needed people to buy more DC's at that time because Sony was winning the battle from the get go. So i wouldn't be surprised if they had gone out and bribed people especially at the climate where most magazines were hostile against Sega.

Hostile? That's an understatement, they were downright murderous towards Sega. It was an all-out war, not that any FAKERS who weren't around in 1999 would know this. Pfft, nothing personnel kids, but I think you need to realise how malicious magazines were towards Sega back in the halcyon days.

I still recall a particular hatchet piece being written about Sega in Edge Gaming Electronic Magazine by Steve Jarratt in 1999. It was particularly curious, because Steve worked for Sega Power magazine, and that particular publication had gone the way of the dodo two years earlier. He claimed that Sega was directly financing terrorists in Syria through a 'black budget' that was supposedly being used to develop their next 'Killer App' Jack Lumber. The fact that he was right about all this was pure coincidence, his article was nothing but libel (or slander if spoken instead of printed).

It was tough. Really tough. I still remember being at a Sega fan club meeting and Rich Leadbetter (who previously was editor of Sega Saturn Magazine) was in a frenzy. He was calling for Sega fans to raise arms (and in addition, their legs and other peripheral body parts, presumably in a fast and violent manner) against the journalists. I saw a young girl in her twenties who came just to play 'NiGHTS' and ask about a sequel to 'Exhumed' try to run out the back door when Rich was describing his plans for an improvised letter bomb addressed to the office of Famitsu. She made it to the door, only to find it locked and blocked by a burly man wearing a Clockwork Knight T-shirt that was clearly bootlegged, as they mis-spelt the word 'Clock' and it featured a picture of Donkey Kong.

Richard swooped onto her immediately (I mean literally 'swooped' as he was wearing a pair of functioning artificial wings and a jetpack at the time) and when she told him he was going too far, he grabbed her by the arm, pushed her against the wall and said 'we'll never rest until they treat this video game publisher with the respect they deserve'. He produced a razor blade from his pocket and began yelling to everyone about how we we 'don't take one step back!'.
It all got a bit strange, but we ended the night playing Vectorman 4 player mode with multi-taps which was quite fun.


And @TA:


Burnout? I'm glad somebody finally mentioned this. Burnout is what Sonic Adventure 2 was MEANT to be. Trip Hawkins stole the design plans from Sega and EA then made the original Burnout instead. Burnout was intended to be the killer sequel to Sonic Adventure One but because EA no longer had access to the Hedgehog Engine (TM), they couldn't make a game that fast with Hedgehogs. After a long night of brainstorming and the removal of the jump button, they decided to replace the anthropomorphic rodents with... CARS! You can see the similarities in hindsight, even though Sega tried to cover it up at the time of release. If you crack the disc open, you can still find the source code that refers to the cars as 'Hedgehogs' and the remnants of the platforming segments.


Truly a shame that it got scrapped.


As for the pictures you posted, I see you conveniently didn't post the score... Nor did you post the 'post mortem' feature they had in the following issue where they made mention of the tennis segment and showed pictures of the cheques from Sega.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:10:09 am by MadeManG74 »