What the Saturn should have been before SOJ screwed it all up...

[ROJM]

The Saturn...Sega's follow up system to the Megadrive/Genesis and the first CDrom console people were actually wanting to see. Thanks to the great games that graced the Megadrive..and Sega dominating 3D in the arcades..people were excited and showed a lot of good will towards the new beast from the east...This system should have been the next hit from Sega..

Until SOJ screwed it all up with their bitterness..incompetence and pettiness and helped destroy everything Sega had gained in the last five years.

This is what could have, should have happened with the Saturn in order to go toe to toe with PSX and N64...

1) The 32x
While i like this system...the idea behind it was illogical. But considering it originated from an illogical management struture of SOJ its easy to see how and why it became real. The reality is the 32x should not have been made..or at least not in the form it was made.

What should have happened.
The 32X should have been the next Powerbase converter..Instead of playing MS games on gensis..it enabled you to play MD/Genesis games on Saturn...while boosting the look of those games. That way it would have easily brought over an audience to invest in a Saturn and keep their old games. You could also keep the MD games running because of it by releasing new games for that system/32x converter.

2) Games designated for 32x should have been Saturn launch games for the US.
STAR WARS ARCADE was a big seller for 32x. In fact a few games were. If those titles had appeared on Saturn instead it would have easily boosted the sales of the system in america, STAR WARS alone would have guaranteed sales..with a few of the other 32x games mainly VIRTUA RACING DELUXE and a few others would have satisfied the tide until the big guns from SOJ came over.


Kalinske and the marketing team.
This is the main reason the Saturn failed in America. Without Kalinske pushing the product the system had no mouth peice to gain the attention of america...There is no doubt...looking at the saturn and the DC..that having great games is not enough. Sega always had great games. What Sega needed is having someone who told the public in a way the public couldn't ignore..was attracted and enjoyed..to tell them they existed and what system they were on. That's why the Genesis got over with the public in the states. That's why Sonic got over. Kalinske and the marketing team they had drew the public in..the games just backed them up..and the people stayed. But because SOJ was pulling the screws on Tom K and the SOA staff a lot of them left...and history shows what happened...a failure of a system.

No Sonic...
With no main SONIC game to push the system at the start meant you were eliminating another part of your audience and potential customers. Sonic was still fresh in the minds of the general public and many were excited to see what a Sonic game for Saturn would look like. So excited that EGM fooled the gamers in an aprils fool joke when they published a mock VIRTUA SONIC picture of Sonic in 3d running on a 3d emerald zone. A Mascot game is meant to do two things..identify your brand to the audience and its meant to highlight the strengths of your system..just like the first SONIC THE HEDGEHOG game did for Genesis by showcasing the system's speed and graphics..a main SONIC title for Saturn would have been able to do the same thing had SOJ planned the whole thing properly and got one ready in time for launch or the Saturn's first year.

 Yet SOJ didn't bother with a main Sonic game..accepting their dev teams excuses because it fit their mode that they didn't need a character that the americans made more popular than they could instead releasing three side games that meant nothing to people looking for a proper Sonic experience on Saturn. No doubt which is why Sony and Konami managed to get those gamers in for PSX when Crash Bandicoot appeared and basically ripped everything that Sonic was. Sega just SAT there with nothing while Sony even stole the essence of their mascot and the sales they gained..proving once and for all that people wanted to play sonic and if they couldn't they will play the next best thing. By the time Sega japan realized this it was too late..and no doubt prompted Sonic Team to return from "exile" from Sega's most popular and only real mascot...


NO big hitters from the genesis on Saturn. The Genesis had games that people who brought Sega enjoyed and became their hitsd or franchises. SONIC, TOE JAM AND EARL, STREETS OF RAGE, COMIC ZONE, ECCO THE DOLPHIN,VECTOR MAN, ETERNAL CHAMPIONS. These titles and a few more would have guaranteed people who were familiar with those titles and enjoyed their sega genesis would have moved on to the Saturn to get the 32 bit sequels to those titles. But hey SOJ knew better and made sure none of that happened thru various means mainly...

But the absence of SONIC, EC,STREETS OF RAGE..and any other title that american players were familiar with killed the Saturn's chance of getting ANY foothold in america. And that is why the SOJ 3D games for Saturn never caught on. If these players had purchased a Saturn for a main SONIC title or SOR game or whatever..they would have more likely brought the big show pieces from SOJ..why? Because its from Sega and people who buy a company brand's system are more likely to try their games out first..especially if they enjoyed their previous system and that company STILL had a dazzling marketing campaign in place. But they didn't...because...

 Dismantling SOA Development structure.
Sega had a Multi media studio that they created in order to develop the next style of title for MCD and beyond. SOA was ahead of the game as they realized that multimedia gaming with the latest in sound and graphic technology was the way to go. This studio boasted the talents of pioneers like Nielsen. These guys had they been around for Saturn could have made unique titles that may have tipped the balance to Sega's favor with the combination of american software and the software from SOJ..the very thing that made the Genesis unstoppable in the first place and attractive to american gamers.

But it was also the smaller studios that were under Sega's wing..some in house some in a second party basis like Blue Sky that had made plenty of good software for SOA that could have continued many of the genesis SOA titles for Saturn or be at hand to create games based on whatever licenses they might have gotten/did get during that time. But by mid 96..Blue sky was at Sony...The other studios shut down or moved onto PC... Without these guys to compliment and create games to the american gamers tastes..the SOJ was missing a vital element that SEGA in the west had traditionally had that stood them apart from many of their competitors.

HEAT.net
Most of what was left of SOA internal development structure was moved to form Segasoft...their mandate to produce titles for PC and cross them with Saturn when possible. Their biggest achievement was creating the service called HEAT.NET...An online service that people subscribed to interact with other users playing games released for this program. The failure to release the internet capabilities for Saturn and to use HEAT.Net as a bridge between Saturn and PC was one big mistake and could have easily gained Saturn another market. If it had been used properly no doubt...the service would have grown bigger for Saturn had they used VIRTUAL ON network play and added HEAT.Net application for that game in the states.

Treasure
When Treasure made GUNSTAR HEROES and ALIEN SOLDIER and DYNAMITE HEADDY for Sega...they electrified the magazine game scene as well as the game industy in america with what they were able to achieve for Genesis.  Some were wondering or anticipating what a GUNSTAR HEROES for Saturn would have been like. Yet SOJ screwed this up as well. Treasure made one game for Sega for saturn the awesome GUARDIAN HEROES and when on to make games for other publishers for Sony Nintendo etc  and Saturn. If Sega played it smart..they could have easily extended their 7 game deal they had with them to create more content for them and Treasure making a lot more games with Sega was all you need to get the media to tell their readers that the Saturn was something to own.


SOJ titles.
By the mid nineties..the american game playing public was started to get more interested in actual japanese franchises with the rise of manga and anime in the western english speaking world. Sega happened to have a franchise that was popular with these people SAKURA TAISEN. The failure to even bring this over was a big commercial failure for Sega. Fans instrested in the japan stuff started to buy PSX to play those titles or import Saturn to play SAKURA TAISEN. Had Sega been on the ball and localise the game they would have been privy to a new market that was beginning to emerge. Instead thanks to SOJ and the sycophants that they replaced the once proud and independent SOA Team with..they looked more outdated and out of touch than they did before.
Without a good and strong marketing team in place titles like PANZER DRAGOON and VIRTUA FIGHTER never reached the level of popularity like they should have done. Oh yes Sega gamers would have brought this..that isn't the problem. The problem is that general gamers who outnumber brand fans...who were on board with Sega was not present with the saturn..if they were..due to the things i mentioned..PD would be a bigger name than it is today..and even prehaps a game that may have had another sequel beyond the ones that it did get...

Sega in the media...
What do you think would have happened if Kalinske was around when NIGHTS was released? The promo with this game would have been all over the place and it would have cemented this title mainstream..for good. During the latter stages of the Genesis lifespan..SOA was attempting to move some characters that was popular on Genesis towards other media. The first of these was EC because that was the most recent hit and it was selling well in merchandise alone. EC had managed to get an agreement in place to turn it into a TV show/cartoon..and more likely would have been the first outside of Sonic to lead other shows with other Sega characters to grace the small screen. Until SOJ stopped it all. That's another detail i will reveal later on. However if SOA were allowed to carry on their plans..many characters for Saturn could have seen this treatment including a proper translation of VIRTUA FIGHTER anime which more than likely would have been on american TV screens instead of being released and half dubbed on video. By the Saturn era what Sega had achieved in america was all but gone. No media presence. No marketing presence..Their name had become a joke....and no presence in the games media...and worst a new generation of joe public gamers..had no clue about Sega , their history..and didn't care..and were brainwashed into believing anything that S*ny told them.

This is all down to SOJ whose attempt to make up for past mistakes with the Saturn proved way too late for the DC. Their actions led to the destruction of SOA and the near fall of Sega enterprises itself...and the real sad thing about all of this is..SOJ hasn't learned a thing when it comes to their attitude towards the west... 

Would the Saturn have beat the PSX if they had done some of what i wrote down? Who knows but they would have defiantly had a better chance of competing if they did done half the things i have posted.

[JRcade19]

Making me cry from the memories here :C

Would it have beat the PSX? IMO no, but I strongly believe that the Saturn could have at least come into striking range of, or even surpassed the N64 if they executed your suggestions.

[ROJM]

Making me cry from the memories here :C

Would it have beat the PSX? IMO no, but I strongly believe that the Saturn could have at least come into striking range of, or even surpassed the N64 if they executed your suggestions.

Exactly..it would have been  a close battle like the Genesis vs SNES which resulted in many great games for both sides. The Saturn didn't need to beat PSX it just needed to be in the picture going toe to toe..and it could have been if like you said half the stuff was applied. After all technically the genesis lost the console war with SNES...only because Sega withdrew from the 16 bit market sooner than they should have...

[JRcade19]

Another big blow IMO was SOJ's rejection of an alternative design for the system.

SOA didn't like what they were seeing, so they shopped around and eventually came back and proposed the Use of Silicon Graphic's very powerful single CPU over the Dual design of the Saturn. Needless to say, SG did eventually find a customer in the N64, and when that released, the Saturn's share was starting from low to free fall mode.

[crackdude]

´With more time and careful planning, it wouldn't have mattered if Sony released the PSX first.

[ROJM]

Another big blow IMO was SOJ's rejection of an alternative design for the system.

SOA didn't like what they were seeing, so they shopped around and eventually came back and proposed the Use of Silicon Graphic's very powerful single CPU over the Dual design of the Saturn. Needless to say, SG did eventually find a customer in the N64, and when that released, the Saturn's share was starting from low to free fall mode.

Exactly but that was to be expected...the problem was timing really. Too many systems confusing the customer in what to get...here's another thing..

SEGA VR
An excellent idea which didn't pan out at the end but if it had this should have been made for the Saturn in mind rather than Genesis. If Sega caught on to the 3D buzz that they created in the first place with their model 1 arcade titles and had this for Saturn they would have taken back the buzz that Sony stole with their machine. The PSX got popular because they used the excitement of 3D polygon arcade titles that Sega created and created versions of them like DAYTONA USA in the form of Demolition Derby as well as using Sega's arcade rival's Namco and their 3d efforts to sell the games and the rest was history..a successful launch with a strong marketing campaign compared to a weak one because of SOJ insane tactics and infighting between SOA and SOJ.
Even when SOA tried to rescue the situation with SONIC XTREME...SOJ with Sonic Team pulled the screws on that. The fact Naka refused to even share the tech with them...so SOA couldn't make the game properly was a hindrance to the greater cause..and regardless of what some may say of SOJ support for this title the fact they let Sonic Team do that and get away with it..is a clear indication where the management of SOJ support truly lies...
Who in their right mind when up against a company out to put you down would deny the chance of a game based on a character that has proven that could help shift systems..put the screws on it because SOJ feared SOA would make a successful 3D SONIC game than they would have. Its ridiculous beyond belief..

[Nameless 24]

I agree with almost everything, but I got to admit that no Sonic on the Saturn was a good thing for the die hard SEGA fans, simply because it showcased Sonic Team's true potential past Sonic with NiGHTS and Burning Rangers.

I feel sorry for their Ristar game due to the lack of hype being a non-Sonic game, new team and came very late into the system's life, but seeing the results of what Sonic Xtreme could have been....I am somewhat happy that the Mascot wasn't on the most unpopular SEGA system that the Western side abandoned (not their fault, as you say about SOJ's management, but I don't think Sonic would have changed the marketshare).

Anyway, good points. I wish that they had never hired that idiot who didn't want JRPGs on the system...since Sony only got stronger when he was sacked from their Department.

[crackdude]

but I don't think Sonic would have changed the marketshare

I understand your point of view, but this sentence is wrong.

Sonic was bigger then Mario at this point in time. And we all know what Mario 64 did for the N64. So Sonic could have done AT LEAST the same for the Saturn.

[Nirmugen]

I'm mostly agree with everything.


The only thing I could say (100% pure speculation, this is not real or fake) is that the Sonic game for the Saturn was going to be real but Naka dropped the idea and later he returned to work for Adventure after finishing Nights.


The question is why he dropped that? Well...it could be anything. The most probable thing could be that they didn't find a way to move Sonic fast enough and controllable in 3D for the Saturn.


But one thing for sure is that "what they have worked, they have utilized in someway in another games"...Nobody thought about those correct 3D models for Sonic & Co. that they appeared on Sonic 3D, Sonic R and Sonic Jam' Sonic World? or the appearance of Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, the Egg Robo, Amy and Metal Sonic on Sonic R? When or where Traveller's Tales got that idea?


Summarize this questions with the revelation of Knuckles Chaotix as an intended Saturn game for 95 and you might have more interrogatives.


And also, from the "Mastermind Trio" (Naka, Ohshima and Yasuhara) , Yasuhara was the only original member of Sonic Team who he stayed in USA and didn't work in Nights neither Burning Rangers or even both Sonic Adventure games.


What did he do? Well....he supervised/designed for both Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R. He even helped the team for the Boss Engine for Xtreme.














Could it be that this guy handle all the beta working material already done and latter offered those works for both "supervised" games? It's a really strange situation that even became more stranger when you find this promotional material for those games:







This was supposedly the protobox art for Sonic R and it was changed because Metal Sonic appeared in the cover and, in the game, he is a Secret character. Seems plausible,does it?...... The art guys from TT were really talented replicated exactly the style of Sonic Team for that art...














Their coincidences are uncanny.....

[ROJM]

I'm mostly agree with everything.


The only thing I could say (100% pure speculation, this is not real or fake) is that the Sonic game for the Saturn was going to be real but Naka dropped the idea and later he returned to work for Adventure after finishing Nights.


The question is why he dropped that? Well...it could be anything. The most probable thing could be that they didn't find a way to move Sonic fast enough and controllable in 3D for the Saturn.


But one thing for sure is that "what they have worked, they have utilized in someway in another games"...Nobody thought about those correct 3D models for Sonic & Co. that they appeared on Sonic 3D, Sonic R and Sonic Jam' Sonic World? or the appearance of Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, the Egg Robo, Amy and Metal Sonic on Sonic R? When or where Traveller's Tales got that idea?


Summarize this questions with the revelation of Knuckles Chaotix as an intended Saturn game for 95 and you might have more interrogatives.


And also, from the "Mastermind Trio" (Naka, Ohshima and Yasuhara) , Yasuhara was the only original member of Sonic Team who he stayed in USA and didn't work in Nights neither Burning Rangers or even both Sonic Adventure games.


What did he do? Well....he supervised/designed for both Sonic 3D Blast and Sonic R. He even helped the team for the Boss Engine for Xtreme.





Could it be that this guy handle all the beta working material already done and latter offered those works for both "supervised" games? It's a really strange situation that even became more stranger when you find this promotional material for those games:



Their coincidences are uncanny.....

The point is that SONIC 3D BLAST and SONIC R came late in the game and they hardly were proper SONIC titles. They were only made when Sega realized they actually needed a Sonic game for Saturn and it was not only too late but most fans knew they these titles weren't the games to showcase the Saturn or Sonic. SOJ and SONIC TEAM didn't plan and had no interest of continuing SONIC for the saturn.If they did none of this would ever have happened.

[ROJM]

I wish that they had never hired that idiot who didn't want JRPGs on the system...since Sony only got stronger when he was sacked from their Department.

And we just have to see what happened with the DC. Look what appeared on that system or was going to appear.  SONIC was ready for the DC for its first year. ECCO came back....SEGA SPORTS came back stronger..TOE JAM AND EARL was going to be made but obviously never released on DC, CHAKAN THE FOREVER MAN and SHINOBI was being made but never released...Sega made sure they were bringing back familiar titles while balancing them with games that were hits from their arcade and Saturn back catalog while creating new content for DC. Its no surprise that these DC games are harbored by Sega and some general gamers alike because they brought the system initially to play the new SONIC game and was privy to the other gems released by Sega and other third parties. That didn't happen with Saturn because there was nothing familiar for fans to latch onto. That's the reason why Saturn games are hardly demanded by the majority of gamers compared to DC. The one thing DC needed was a strong SOA president and a great marketing campaign and it kinda lacked both.

[crackdude]

Nirmugen, are you saying there was a Sonic game in the making behind the scenes?

Also, they should have totally made all the 32X games for the Saturn.
Even if they'd just straight out rereleased them all with slightly better graphics would be a good move to gain more momentum in the first months.

[Nirmugen]

The Naka Team tried but they didn't have what they want, so they leave USA, gave all the worked material to Yasuhara, leave the Sonic game for Saturn project to the rest of STI and they started to work with Oshima Team (Sonic CD) for Nights in Japan. That's what happened IMO.

All the scraped material appeared in Sonic 3D (Special Stage and Models), Sonic R (Characters and maybe scrapped level art and concepts like the snow/rain/dry thing) and Sonic Jam (Hub World).

[ROJM]

The Naka Team tried but they didn't have what they want, so they leave USA, gave all the worked material to Yasuhara, leave the Sonic game for Saturn project to the rest of STI and they started to work with Oshima Team (Sonic CD) for Nights in Japan. That's what happened IMO.

All the scraped material appeared in Sonic 3D (Special Stage and Models), Sonic R (Characters and maybe scrapped level art and concepts like the snow/rain/dry thing) and Sonic Jam (Hub World).

Except that isn't what happened.

Such divisions within STI presented enough difficulties for the project, but the difficult relationship between Sega Of America and its Japanese parent didn’t help. Bernie Stolar had just moved from Sony to take over Sega Of America, and Wallis clearly remembers his desire to get the mascot character on to the Saturn in time for the Christmas of 1996. He allocated a specialised team to the project and asked what they needed to get it out in time. “I told him the team felt that with the Nights engine and development tools we’d have a much better shot of achieving our goal,” says Wallis. “He said to consider it done.”



The team then spent a period familiarising itself with the new engine, but the relief was short-lived: “After two or three weeks, Stolar came in and told us that we had to stop using the Nights engine, that Sega Of Japan was changing its mind and that we would have to go back to using our [Coffin’s] own tech.” Wallis spoke to Stolar to find out what was behind the change of heart: “He told me that Yuji Naka had threatened to quit if Japan allowed us to use his technology to create a Sonic game.”

http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-sonic-x-treme/


SOA decision to make Sonic had nothing to do with SOJ or Sonic Team. SONIC XTREME target was for 96...when SONIC TEAM was too busy making NIGHTS and BURNING RANGERS soon after. So i can't see how STwas intrested in doing a sonic team in  late 94..95/96 when they were busy making other titles.

[crackdude]

They should have just stick a big FUCK YOU on Naka. He was fucking worthless from Nights onwards.