SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: cube_b3 on February 27, 2011, 03:29:08 pm
-
http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/sexisminvideogames.html (http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/sexisminvideogames.html)
-
Nope that was a waste of my time and I suspect you only posted it because of the 1 line it had about Bayonetta being sexually objectifying.
I actually hate this care bear bullshit, Woman are objectified, men are objectified. Sex sells who gives a shit.
OMG LOOK HOW SUGGESTIVE THIS IS?!
(http://http://world-of-games.co.uk/PS2/album/Devil%20May%20Cry%20II-a.jpg)
In this day and age both sexes are objectified to some degree and only repressed backwards douchebags make a big fuss about it.
My girlfriend LOVES Bayonetta and LOVES Ulala both are strong female characters and yes they move and wear suggestive clothes.
Get over it.
If a game doesn't have suggestive thremes some unruly flag goat like fuzzy moo chicken will just draw it and fap over it.
-
LOL, Sharky, I've gathered that your position on sexism in games, and perhaps on sexism in general, is "SHUT UP JUST SHUT UP!!!"
It is an interesting read. I think video games, like comics before them (another generally disrespected and maligned art form), are limited by the rather limited range of backgrounds and experiences of their creators. If there were to be a more diverse range of creators, the overall quality of games would go up as there would be a greater number of games in which the characters are designed by people of the same gender, race, class, cultural background and so forth.
One thing that I thought Disney was doing right in the late 90s before they completely screwed up and laid off their traditional animation staff was they were trying to have the lead animators for each character be of a similar background to the characters they were animating. This isn't always possible but I think there's something to it, as there are particular nuances to each identity that not everyone is fully aware of in others.
Now, the interesting question is, why is the spectrum of creators so limited? It comes back in part to issues of sexism and class privilege.
All in all, although I once had higher hopes for the medium of video games, I think I've seen enough by now to expect that story-wise and in terms of subtly nuanced representations of people, the medium of video games will never reach the heights of prose novels and films. There will be brilliant exceptions to the rule along the way, but video games are pretty much doomed by the prevalence of immaturity among the vast majority of their creators. Comics have never recovered from the dominant stupidity of superheroes in spite of the efforts of indie publishers like Fantagraphics, and I think we've seen enough water under the bridge to predict that video games are similarly doomed.
-
It isn't that I don't agree that some levels of sexism are a bit silly and crude and, well... Sexist.
But I'm really, really sick of ultra sensitive types making a big sink over things like Bayonetta... Bayonetta the character was designed by a female, most females I've come across actually LOVE the character as well as Ulala.
The character comes across as unobtainable, strong and 'free' she’s not a damsel in distress treated like a lesser being.
I think it is time it dawned on some people that actually woman LIKE to be 'sexy' and in fact, so do men in this day and age.
If you want to see a Sexist game, try 'Cooking Mama' yep... That's far more sexist then anything in Bayonetta.
Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.
[youtube:2tzv0vtb]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:2tzv0vtb]
-
I think you're right about Cooking Mama.
I agree that the character Bayonetta is more like appropriating the 'sexy' behavior and it is just one of the many other strengths she has such as intelligence, wit and skillful fighting. Bayonetta the game arguably satirizes that type of objectification, as Bayonetta the character pushes it to such an extreme... even the walk animation is a big exaggeration of a 'sexy' walk. But it's also understandable that at first glance many people think that Bayonetta is possibly quite superficial. But what can you do... so many people are all too willing to form strong opinions about things they never bother to experience firsthand. The thing about satire is that the audience has to have a pre-established understanding of the subject to understand that it is satire; ignorant people will think it's just completely on the level. I understand Stephen Colbert has a lot of conservative fans, when his whole act is completely making fun of them. But because he plays it deadpan, many never get the satirical element of it.
-
I agree, lot's of people will form strong opinions about things before they give it a go...
-
Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.
[youtube:2s9ywrnz]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:2s9ywrnz]
What a bunch of bullshit propaganda, just because some group of psychos burn their women's faces with acid doesn't speak of the majority in Pakistan.
Forced Marriage and Violence exist even in the west and other parts of the world, and most Pakistani women wear Hijab not Burqa.
Granted I won't claim I know about Pakistan more than Cube, but a large number of Pakistanis live in Saudi Arabia and I think I have a pretty good idea about them.
EDIT: Why is this in the Sega section? Are we discussing Bayonetta's sexism again? Sharky pretty much hit the nail on the head, most of the Bayonetta fans I've seen are women, and her creator is also a female, why complain about it when women themselves doesn't find it offending?
-
I don't know. My take is that women are more sexual by nature while man are more "manly" by nature. There's nothing wrong when a woman wants to be different, be seen as more than a piece of hotness. I think even if men didn't exist at all, women would still be enjoying to wear less clothes as possible, dance in a sensual way(belly dancing etc), pyjama parties.
I do find it an interesting subject however. Some women seem to think that it's men who control everything, and they do have a point to a certain extent but I still think it's BS. But whatever, giving it too much thought is silly. It's not like we man go apeshit when women generalize about men. They do it all the time actually :p
-
What a bunch of bullshit propaganda, just because some group of psychos burn their women's faces with acid doesn't speak of the majority in Pakistan.
I’m not trying to say everyone in Pakistan is walking around with a vile of chemicals incase their wife steps out of line. That was the first random video I found on youtube. and not really the point I was trying to make. Forget the video it was a poor choice on my part.
What I'm trying to get across is that the idea that 'a womans job is in the kitchen' and woman should 'obey their husband' and 'wear a headscarf' (of any form) these things which ARE a part of some cultures, including that of Pakistan are FAR more 'sexist' than, say... Bayonetta using her sexuality.
-
EDIT: Why is this in the Sega section? Are we discussing Bayonetta's sexism again? Sharky pretty much hit the nail on the head, most of the Bayonetta fans I've seen are women, and her creator is also a female, why complain about it when women themselves doesn't find it offending?
A mistake by yours truly.
I don't think he knows the difference between Hijab and Burkah.
Try going to the country Cube comes from and see how many think woman are not equal to men, forced marriage and violence is common place. Where most of them have to cover their face under a berka.
[youtube:3ag2p6qq]JoBgUB8e4vg[/youtube:3ag2p6qq]
Thank you for comparing me to a psychotic minority.
My sister is one of the most prominent upcoming artists in our country.
My mother is a well respected entrepreneur.
As far as I know the only country where Hijab is in a women's dress code is Saudia Arabia.
Also in this video I couldn't see a single lady in a burkah. We broadcast these cases to bring awareness with in our own country so that the right human rights activists can go forth and bring a change.
-
Hijab isn't really a bad thing in my opinion. I heard lots of stories from muslim friends and I think it makes sense. In general, it's in a mans nature to get turned on by women. Some less/more than others, but generally speaking that still stands. Women are respected alot more when their sexual attractive figures/hair are not shown. I've been noticing this myself, especially at work. I don't really care tbh. They make the choice themselves for that particular reason, to be respected and not be bothered by guys that usually are only out for one thing.
Ages ago women have been opressed here as well. I think the oppresion thing has more to do with culture rather than religion. Also with corruption and everything in those places prevents it from normal people to speak up. The whole protest thing happening now gives me a positive feeling about the arab worlds future. Culture changes.
Well, anyway just felt like sharing my views on this.
-
All in all, although I once had higher hopes for the medium of video games, I think I've seen enough by now to expect that story-wise and in terms of subtly nuanced representations of people, the medium of video games will never reach the heights of prose novels and films. There will be brilliant exceptions to the rule along the way, but video games are pretty much doomed by the prevalence of immaturity among the vast majority of their creators. Comics have never recovered from the dominant stupidity of superheroes in spite of the efforts of indie publishers like Fantagraphics, and I think we've seen enough water under the bridge to predict that video games are similarly doomed.
First of all, if you think that Comics/Graphic Novels are 'doomed' in terms of maturity, then I couldn't disagree more. Comics and graphic novels are only moving on up in terms of recognition as a legitimate medium, and I've attended seminars for Graphic Novels as literature and even written a report/seminar on that topic for a 'Theory and Writing' course at uni. Secondly, it's hardly fair to group all superhero books into being 'dumb'. Watchmen alone smashes any notion that superheroes need be dumb and childish.
As for games, they aren't as emotional and rich in story as books/films, but by the same token books and films never have to worry about anything but story, whereas games have to worry about gameplay as an equally important aspect of their design.
-
@ Crazy Tails,
If a woman chooses to she can dress in a way that is entirely suitable and not at all provocative with out wearing a hijab and burqa to obscure themselves.
In the society I live in woman can generally wear what ever they like, my girlfriend doesn't like wearing revealing clothes at all and she doesn't need a headscarf to achive this...
You make it sound as if as soon as a man see's an attractive face, or, god forbid... nice hair... they turn into a rabid, rapist. Men find woman attractive, woman find men attractive and that's life... It's going to happen, why deny it!? But at no point have I found myself unable to function if I find someone attractive and I don't turn into a lustful rapist either.
After watching a documentary recently where a British born Muslim goes back to Yemen, (I think it was Yemen) he asks lots of woman how they feel about having to be covered in public, everything but their eyes and most of the younger ones replied that they didn't want it at first but got used to it and understand the reason for it in their culture.
Maybe it DOES help them to be taken more seriously (I personally have my doubts but hey, maybe...) But surely it should be there own choice? Not made for them by society and treated poorly if they don't wear one? If they had the choice I doubt many of them would be wearing it.
If suddenly girls started finding you attractive would you want society to force you to wear a cloth over your face... =D
Not to mention headscarf or not it seems in some of these countries, woman are still given the role of 'house keeper' and 'obedient wife' so I'm not really getting where this whole 'hijab and burqa means more respect' stuff comes from.
-
Ages ago women have been opressed here as well. I think the oppresion thing has more to do with culture rather than religion. Also with corruption and everything in those places prevents it from normal people to speak up. The whole protest thing happening now gives me a positive feeling about the arab worlds future. Culture changes.
The hilarious thing is we can thank the American and European powers for placing tyrants and murderous psychopaths as the head of the government/ruling monarch simply because we didn't want to pay too much for oil.
It's as much as political problem as cultural, don't want those pesky people to see the rights they can have, or they start to oppose the ones in control and everything goes tumbling down.
Anyway Bayonetta is designed by a woman, so is it sexist? If a woman designed her and is happy with the design, then it surely can't be considered sexist?
-
Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?
-
Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?
There is nothing wrong with strippers, if they want to be a stripper let them. It is, after all their own body and it's only a body...
I'd rather live in a world where woman can choose to be strippers if she wants to be then a world where she is forced into arranged marriage with men they may not necessarily want to be with and then be expected to do the housework, have kids, obey her husband and wear a head scarf in public.
Tell me, which one is more 'sexist'?
-
The former. The latter is oppressive :).
Why do you assume me to be an oppressive person just because I value dignity. I have nothing against anyone strippers can be strippers it's their choice but don't call them entrepreneur's call them strippers.
Bayonetta is sexist, are you and your social circle fine with it.
Given the likely possiblity the game is deeper than objectification, atleast agree with me on this:
The marketing was all about objectification from the 1st Teaser to the one handed masterbation compatible control scheme.
-
This is where your argument falls flat...
The latter is both, actually. The former is not sexist... Men can be strippers, men can be models, men can be prostitutes and men can even be suggestive and use their sexuality to their advantage if they so choose. JUST like woman can. It seems quite equal...
But this 'you are mine to treat how I wish' attitude that some countries adopt towards woman in general, treating woman as things to be commanded IS sexist.
Sexism by definition is saying
'you are not my equal because of your gender.'
Now, if a black comedian goes on stage and tells jokes about 'being black' and uses his experience as a black guy to his advantage. He make some jokes about being black, that isn’t racist... Look at Chris Rock... He does a great job of it. Both Black and White people can find that funny.
It is racist to oppress black people as a race, treat them as lesser humans...
Well it's exactly the same with woman, if a woman WANTS to be a stripper and use her sexuality, then go for it! That isn’t sexist that’s her choice and her body. (Likewise a man can do this too!)
What IS sexist is telling her NO; actually you can't do that... go cover your face with a tea towel and cook my din dins, you are mine!
Given the likely possiblity the game is deeper than objectification, atleast agree with me on this:
The marketing was all about objectification from the 1st Teaser to the one handed masterbation compatible control scheme.
Hey, if you masterbate every time you've got a hand free that's fine with me... But don't paint everyone with your brush!
Kamiya said the easy mode is so that everyone, no matter there skill level can enjoy Bayonetta... Never said anything about masterbation...
Vanquish has a similar easy mode... Should I expect that is for fapping too?
-
It's not about how you look at the woman perse. It's about how you aproach her. Here in holland everything has become really mixed. Muslims are everywhere so the chances of getting in touch with these kinds of girls/women is big around here. I just noticed myself when speaking with these kind of girls brings no other intentions with it.
You're giving a good example there about your girlfriend. Hijab doesn't only describe the scarf, but also the figure/curves. It's not like when a woman wairs a scarf she's automatically less sexualy attractive when she still wears tight clothes. I do gotta say that the latter seems to have a bigger effect on me. Hijab is covering both curves and hair i've learned. The best thing of all, or so a friend has told me, when you do find a certain girl attractive that's dressed that way, it's harder to think of perverted things. Maybe i'm just mesed up :lol: but I am guilty of doing that myself sometimes. The attractness comes just from the face and character.
It just sorta makes sense to me, while i'm not a mulsim myself. But I like looking at women in that manner instead of the whole "let's see if you can get that girl" attitude among friends, which is how men are usually, i'm sure your familar with that kind of attitude towards women. I respect their perspective on how their religion encourages a woman to be seen as more than just an object of lust and how the women aknowledge the "weakness" of men.
Anyway to keep this ontopic. Bayonetta, if I take away that she's made by a female and judge her just by the character. I don't think it's sexist at all. She's not being degraded to be acting that way, she's doing it herself, full with confidence and style. There's nothing sexist about her character.
-
Yeah, where is this masturbation thing coming from? I don't recall adverts saying "Play with one hand ;)" All that nonsense came from the juvenile gaming press who always slip in a dirty joke when they can.
IN FACT the ONE time that I found Platinum officially showing off the one handed mode is here:
http://kotaku.com/#!5344857/see-bayonet ... h-one-hand (http://kotaku.com/#!5344857/see-bayonetta-played-with-one-hand)
Oh my, look at that, Bayo's female designer is playing the game one handed. No masturbation jokes, no Japanese men winking at the camera miming masturbation. Just a woman playing a game with one hand, to show off how easy the auto mode is.
Quotes from Kamiya on auto mode, again, no mention of masturbation aside from the article writer himself making a joke: http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2009/0 ... c-mode.htm (http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2009/08/25/play-bayonetta-with-one-hand-in-very-easy-automatic-mode.htm)
Aaaaand once again, fatfuck the fuck aka Jim Sterling gets very explicit about auto mode, but the video and Kamiya quotes only focus on the simplicity of the mode, no mention of jerking off: http://www.destructoid.com/bayonetta-s- ... 5914.phtml (http://www.destructoid.com/bayonetta-s-very-easy-automatic-mode-played-with-one-hand-145914.phtml)
Journalists making juvenile jokes is not the same as PG and SEGA marketing the game.
-
Sexism = when a woman is treated less than a man.
Sexism does not mean a woman is sexy in a movie or game. Woman love being sexy, so do men. Why do you think they wear fucking make up, high heels and shave their legs? If they didn't give a shit, they look like those whiny hippies that call everything sexist.
I don't see how giving Bayonetta, a female, a lead game where she kicks ass is sexist.
Now, if the lead character was Jack and Bayonetta was stupid and relied on Jack's strong muscles to do anything... yeah... thats sexist.
-
I agree, Bayonetta is Sexy.
Wait, what?
-
It's not about how you look at the woman perse. It's about how you aproach her. Here in holland everything has become really mixed. Muslims are everywhere so the chances of getting in touch with these kinds of girls/women is big around here. I just noticed myself when speaking with these kind of girls brings no other intentions with it.
You're giving a good example there about your girlfriend. Hijab doesn't only describe the scarf, but also the figure/curves. It's not like when a woman wairs a scarf she's automatically less sexualy attractive when she still wears tight clothes. I do gotta say that the latter seems to have a bigger effect on me. Hijab is covering both curves and hair i've learned. The best thing of all, or so a friend has told me, when you do find a certain girl attractive that's dressed that way, it's harder to think of perverted things. Maybe i'm just mesed up :lol: but I am guilty of doing that myself sometimes. The attractness comes just from the face and character.
It just sorta makes sense to me, while i'm not a mulsim myself. But I like looking at women in that manner instead of the whole "let's see if you can get that girl" attitude among friends, which is how men are usually, i'm sure your familar with that kind of attitude towards women. I respect their perspective on how their religion encourages a woman to be seen as more than just an object of lust and how the women aknowledge the "weakness" of men.
There is a good chance that being covered by Hijab or Berqua will stop men looking at woman in a sexual way... Then again so would incasing her in a block of granite. Both seem like extreme measures to stop such a harmless thing...
Frankly when I talk to woman dressed 'normally' for my society I have no 'wondering thoughts' I can function quite normally.
However I doubt I am the only guy that, when talking to a woman dressed from head to toe in a berqua I'm putting quite a lot of thought into 'I wonder what she looks like under this'... In fact I bet it is FAR more distracting... Not even in a sexual way I'm just wondering at this point, what she looks like. If you hide something, people WANT to see it... That is human nature.
But this isn't really the point I was making... I'm not out to stop people wearing these things, even if I don't agree with the concept.
Where you come from and where I come from (Europe) there is nothing in society to say HEY YOU HAVE TO WEAR THAT HEAD SCARF!
So yeah I guess it could seem like an alright idea, woman have the choice to wear it or not. (Give or take a strict parent.) They are free to wear it if they choose. Shit, if I want to wear one I will and no one will stop me... I might get some funny looks but nothing else.
In some of these countries where this originates there ISN'T a choice, society chooses, the man chooses... The woman are expected to be a certain way and if they do not act this way, wear that, perform this duty they are treated poorly. THAT is where it becomes sexist.
You know what, Woman LIKE to be attractive, they LIKE to be looked at and they LIKE to be sexy... Even these Muslim woman. Even those Muslim girls that can only show their eyes in public because society has forced it upon them LOOK at their eyes... They have pimped those eyes to the max, mascara, make up, all sorts to get some kind of attraction going.
It's HUMAN nature to be attracted to the opposite sex and it's human nature to want to attract the opposite sex, hell it's the nature of all creatures... If a 18 year old Muslim girl wants to show the world she’s a hot piece of arse I fully support it and I don't think it should be the right of any repressed douche bag bloke to stop her.
-
We've strayed seriously off topic but I like the decision going on. Just move it to Off Topic: Everything else cause we are off gaming now.
Anyway I don't get the Burkah; it is a security risk i'm not sure but you can't do that in the United States and several places in Pakistan even it is a security thread cause terrorist (MEN) fucking roam around in those clothes.
Hijab on the other hand I respect, burkah's I maintain a distance.
Funny story given that we'll be graduating soon are teacher informed us that the 2 girls wearing Burkah in our class can not practice psychology with the burkah the institute doesn't allow it. You need to connect with your patients regardless of gender build a rapport with them and with a burkah your alienating 50% of the market.
-
@sharky
Ah i am totally against burqa's, burqa's are stupid so let's not bring that into the discussion. I agree with your point of view. It's just that I respect their perspective given from their source as well. I mean there will always be idiots who opress women, judge the people, not the source. Their religion does not say, opress the women or that the women has less rights. Their religion say that men and women are different and have their own responsibilities, and can affect each other in ways, which makes sense when I look at how women can easily controll men if they just shake their ass. From their pov Women are actually very valuable, which is why they care so much about their value.
Yeah I agree too that a woman can do whatever she likes, wherever she comes from, whatever her religion is. I personally just like to respect women in general, I like it when a woman chooses to be seen as more than just attractive peace of meat. In that particular religion, the islam, it's priority. If men weren't such jerks over there, overall it would be a great foundation to women. Women would have rights and not be controlled by mens lust and generally used for marketing. Especially in the US there are lots of girls that grow up, watch those music video's on tv and get brainwashed that that's all their good for.
Edit: Yeah this is heading totally offtopic lol
-
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/gamepro30022/Phoenix%20Wright%20Gifs/ani-judge-gavel.gif)
(http://http://th80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/Son_07/Phoenix%20Wright/th_PhoenixWrightani-Judgeshakes-head.gif)
I wouldn't say it's offtopic. In talking about worldly matters you are in turn discussing how you all perceive and interpret sexism, which in turn applies to the posted article.
As long as there is no flaming or insulting, I'll allow it.
-
Yeah I agree too that a woman can do whatever she likes, wherever she comes from, whatever her religion is. I personally just like to respect women in general, I like it when a woman chooses to be seen as more than just attractive peace of meat. In that particular religion, the islam, it's priority. If men weren't such jerks over there, overall it would be a great foundation to women. Women would have rights and not be controlled by mens lust and generally used for marketing. Especially in the US there are lots of girls that grow up, watch those music video's on tv and get brainwashed that that's all their good for.
It is very possible for a woman to be both attractive and smart.
I also find this 'what they see on tv is brain washing' to be quite... urh, over played.
I personally have never met a girl, of the hundreds of girls I know that aspires to even be a model let alone shake their stuff on MTV or what ever... The real world is more down to earth then people make out. You can walk into a shop in the UK pick up a tabloid paper flick to page 3, see naked girls, any news agent has porn magazines on the top shelf... It isn't hard to see nude girls, yet I don't know a single girl that I would say has been brainwashed to aspire to that. That mentality is way overplayed. If a girl DOES aspire to that... Why should we call it brain washing, maybe that’s WHAT she wants to do. After all I don't think it is a crime to show off what you've got.
The Hijab, as far as I am aware is kind of like a vale that goes over the hair and onto the shoulders, personally I'm totally fine with that, in fact it can actually be attractive! BUT... It really doesn't do much to hide any features... apart from their hair and it is still 'sexist' in any society where it is forced on woman.
Frankly I think we should all just cast off our clothes and rutt like the animals we are.
-
Strippers are women too are they not objectifying themselves? Are they necessarily unhappy?
Cube, I've had several friends who have worked as strippers and it was not because it was their favorite choice of a job. It's a difficult, exploitative and sometimes dangerous job, with a very few exceptions in areas where adult industry workers have been able to organize unions and subsequently improve working conditions. They took the job because it paid much better than the other jobs immediately available to them. Unfortunately I think there is a big illusion that people working in the sex industry are quite happy about it, which is not the case. They certainly aren't doing it because they just have some simple enjoyment of being looked at all day in a sexual way. I think in the majority of instances it has more to do with desperation. In many cases, through a variety of circumstances, they have no family support and few supportive friends in their community, might have children of their own to provide for, and no credit to apply for loans for example, to get into college and perhaps find better career paths. And even if they are able to get to that point, there is still the ongoing issue of women consistently being paid less for the same work than men are. As a result there are a few imperfect attempts to equalize things, such as affirmative action, which gives some people the impression that the problem is solved. That gets into more of the institutionalized aspect of sexism.
-
[youtube:2ysnxmpr]sEEx3oUuiII[/youtube:2ysnxmpr]
-
First of all, if you think that Comics/Graphic Novels are 'doomed' in terms of maturity, then I couldn't disagree more. Comics and graphic novels are only moving on up in terms of recognition as a legitimate medium, and I've attended seminars for Graphic Novels as literature and even written a report/seminar on that topic for a 'Theory and Writing' course at uni. Secondly, it's hardly fair to group all superhero books into being 'dumb'. Watchmen alone smashes any notion that superheroes need be dumb and childish.
As for games, they aren't as emotional and rich in story as books/films, but by the same token books and films never have to worry about anything but story, whereas games have to worry about gameplay as an equally important aspect of their design.
I agree that there are some comics/graphic novels that are great works of literature. However it took the better part of a century for the art form to evolve to that point, and there is still relatively little business support for finely crafted literary comics. "Citizen Kane" is regarded by many as a cinematic achievement which signaled that the art form of film had achieved greatness... within less than half a century from its inception. So already we see video games falling behind that pace. Watchmen might be an exception to the rule of the utter stupidity of superhero comics, but in the general public's mind in the U.S. (I know it's quite different in Japan and Europe), comics are synonymous with superheros. I give no quarter to superhero comics as a genre, as they have damn near ruined the respectability of an entire art form in North America. It turns my stomach that Sega got involved with Marvel... they clearly didn't bother trying to polish those turds as they were guaranteed to bring in some income no matter what. Still it'd be better for Sega's reputation if they had never been associated.
Still in all, I think the concept of "greatness" is very subjective. I personally enjoy the hell out of the simple pursuit of high scores. I was just thinking several years ago that video games might become more like great cinema, in terms of quality of content and not just graphical appearance. Now I don't really think things are moving in that direction, but games can still be great equivalents of blockbuster action movies and such.
-
Sharky, please tone down the racism a bit.
Why do you assume me to be an oppressive person just because I value dignity.
Bayonetta fights for herself. She knows she is smarter, faster and stronger than anyone in her game, and she is out to prove it. Just because she does stretches while doing it does not mean anything, that is just how she fights.
I have nothing against anyone strippers can be strippers it's their choice but don't call them entrepreneur's call them strippers.
She has fighting moves that mimic stripper moves, but she was never one herself and she never actually removes anything in the game. Her hair from her head surrounds a large portion of her body because it is literally the strongest element in the game.
Bayonetta is sexist, are you and your social circle fine with it.
Some of the members here may not share my opinion, but I have no real respect for people who exploit their bodies for profit.
This is what you have been missing from the start entirely however, Bayonetta is using her stylized moves to attack and nothing else. She is not trying to have sex with anyone or trying to trick anyone into having sex with her, that is just how she fights. Even her taunts that look to be sexually provoking is meant to be annoying and only anger her enemies, you just have the wrong idea all together.
The marketing was all about objectification from the 1st Teaser to the one handed masterbation compatible control scheme.
This cannot be the case. Kamiya himself has said he was very disappointed with the people who made porn of the character, and that he thinks they have no respect for game design.
Video game journalists trying to be funny came up with that nonsense. In reality it is just a mode for people who do not play games to be able to enjoy and complete it on their own terms, even if they have never played an action game before.
And you do need to use both parts of the controller. Do not get the wrong idea.
-
First of all she isn't a real character, gamers control sexy pixels, designed to objectify.
For god sake her first line was "Do you want to touch me" followed by softcore porno level sounds and erotic camera angle's durring the whole fight scene. By the end of it she strips naked with black blur covering her thinkly.
The whole stupid covered in hair storyline is trashy garbage or maybe something else. That was my first impression of her and I was like I won't touch her if my life depended on it.
-
Sharky, please tone down the racism a bit.
What racism? I haven't mentioned a single race in this whole thread. I may be many things but I am not racist...
I'm talking about Berquas, Hijabs (clothes) and woman being treated as not equal to men in some countries... I'm not being racist, unfortunately that just the case.
By the way, Muslim isn't a race and neither is Pakistani...
-
First of all she isn't a real character, gamers control sexy pixels, designed to objectify.
This is a stupid point. You might as well stop living, because literally every character from every form of media has had someone in the world sexually fantasize about them, no matter how screwed up the character actually is.
For god sake her first line was "Do you want to touch me" followed by softcore porno level sounds and erotic camera angle's durring the whole fight scene. By the end of it she strips naked with black blur covering her thinkly.
The whole stupid covered in hair storyline is trashy garbage or maybe something else. That was my first impression of her and I was like I won't touch her if my life depended on it.
This is everyone's point. You literally have no idea what you are on about, just because you saw the first trailer you think you know everything about the game and go out of your way to make your point seem more important even though you really have no idea how the game plays, when most of us do.
Well no, that scene does not exist in the final game. She never talks to the player, the trailer you saw was supposed to be her annoying the enemies she fights.
In fact, the actual story of the game is very dark and never ever mentions her in a sexual manner, it is literally no different from the progression of something like Streets of Rage from a gameplay standpoint.
I can understand if you do not like her, but you are being far too blunt with your hatred and will not even try to see what people who have played it enjoy about the game. No, I am not into it because it has Space Harrier and OutRun music, it is actually an outstanding product, one of the best SEGA has released in over 10 years. No joke.
-
I'll just leave this here:
Mortal Kombat 4 was amazing with those FMV endings and girls with big boobs, lol.
-
What racism? I haven't mentioned a single race in this whole thread. I may be many things but I am not racist...
I'm talking about Berquas, Hijabs (clothes) and woman being treated as not equal to men in some countries... I'm not being racist, unfortunately that just the case.
By the way, Muslim isn't a race and neither is Pakistani...
What the...?
Racism also includes one nationality, not just the race they belong to and racism can also include religion, known as institutional racism. This includes making fun out of one's language.
So yes, one can still be classed a racist. Just clearing that up for future discussion.
And on the case of Pakistan, whilst village areas have it bad, they did have a woman running for leader a few years back.
-
I haven't said anything racist or mocking though, and all I said was Muslim/Pakistani isn't a race.
If I say 'Some Americans are all full of them selves' I'm not being racist... If I say 'Somalia is becoming a problem for shipping in the area.' I'm not being racist and if I say woman in some Middle Eastern countries are treated in a sexist manor I'm certainly not being racist...
I've yet to say a SINGLE thing regarding race or even mention the people of the country as a generalization. I have always said 'some people' in 'some countries, such as Pakistan'. I'm not talking about race at all.
I think everyone is far to quick to throw the word racist around, I'm saying that I don't think Bayonetta is sexist but in Pakistan where cube (the main accuser of Bayonetta being sexist) is from it is deeply rooted and widely accepted, and it is. Maybe if I'd have said 'Every Pakistani is a sexist'... Sure, thats racist, but I haven't and wouldn't be so quick to generalize such a thing.
[spoiler:13xdutwj]I feel like I'm being told off by the two biggest hypocrites in the world, some of the things I've heard you come out with on MSN are certainly racist and Sanus has been Kogens Mini-me for years, happy to be friends with a guy who would treat you like dirt...[/spoiler:13xdutwj]
-
I feel like I'm being told off by the two biggest hypocrites in the world, some of the things I've heard you come out with on MSN are certainly racist and Sanus has been Kogens Mini-me for years, happy to be friends with a guy who would treat you like dirt...
If that's the way you take it from someone pointing out that racism also includes nationality and religion, which you are still trying to sidefoot around, that's okay I do not mind. Still find it hilarious being called one of the biggest hypocrites in the world but c'est la via.
I think everyone is far to quick to throw the word racist around, I'm saying that I don't think Bayonetta is sexist but in Pakistan where cube (the main accuser of Bayonetta being sexist) is from it is deeply rooted and widely accepted, and it is.
It is one thing to quote a well known stat but to hold the belief of someone's belief from the country he is from is considered a form of racism.
Also notice how I never called you racist, I just pointed out racism also includes nationality and religion so you are aware of this in future discussion.
-
I haven't said anything racist or mocking though, and all I said was Muslim/Pakistani isn't a race.
If I say 'Some Americans are all full of them selves' I'm not being racist... If I say 'Somalia is becoming a problem for shipping in the area.' I'm not being racist and if I say woman in some Middle Eastern countries are treated in a sexist manor I'm certainly not being racist...
I've yet to say a SINGLE thing regarding race or even mention the people of the country as a generalization. I have always said 'some people' in 'some countries, such as Pakistan'. I'm not talking about race at all.
I think everyone is far to quick to throw the word racist around, I'm saying that I don't think Bayonetta is sexist but in Pakistan where cube (the main accuser of Bayonetta being sexist) is from it is deeply rooted and widely accepted, and it is. Maybe if I'd have said 'Every Pakistani is a sexist'... Sure, thats racist, but I haven't and wouldn't be so quick to generalize such a thing.
[spoiler:h4w4fbar]I feel like I'm being told off by the two biggest hypocrites in the world, some of the things I've heard you come out with on MSN are certainly racist and Sanus has been Kogens Mini-me for years, happy to be friends with a guy who would treat you like dirt...[/spoiler:h4w4fbar]
This is called a meltdown.
-
If that's the way you take it from someone pointing out that racism also includes nationality and religion, which you are still trying to sidefoot around, that's okay I do not mind.
I have no idea what you are trying to say...
But as I said, I've said nothing racist. I agree nationality CAN be race related, never disputed it. But I don't believe I have been...
But religion? I don't agree... White people can be Muslims, Middle Eastern can be Christian. My English teacher was a white guy and Buddhist. Religion in general, in my opinion is silly but I have no problem with people being religious... Does that make me a racist?
Still find it hilarious being called one of the biggest hypocrites in the world but c'est la via.
Really... surprising. I wont take this further.
It is one thing to quote a well known stat but to hold the belief of someone's belief from the country he is from is considered a form of racism.
Are you speaking in code?
I assume you are trying to say I need to do some scientific tests before I suggest that woman in Pakistan are not treated equally...
The status of women in Pakistan varies considerably across classes, regions, and the rural/urban divide due to uneven socioeconomic development and the impact of tribal, feudal, and capitalist social formations on women's lives. The Pakistani women of today enjoy a better status than most Muslim and Middle Eastern women. However, on an average, the women's situation vis-à-vis men is one of systemic gender subordination[2], although there have been attempts by the government and enlightened groups to elevate the status of women in Pakistani society[3]
And yes, fresh from Wikipedia... I don't feel as though I should waste any more time on finding proof but if you need further evidence I suggest you google it.
Also notice how I never called you racist, I just pointed out racism also includes nationality and religion so you are aware of this in future discussion.
Then I agree and disagree respectively.
This is called a meltdown.
I haven't even broken a sweat.
-
It is very possible for a woman to be both attractive and smart.
I also find this 'what they see on tv is brain washing' to be quite... urh, over played.
I personally have never met a girl, of the hundreds of girls I know that aspires to even be a model let alone shake their stuff on MTV or what ever... The real world is more down to earth then people make out. You can walk into a shop in the UK pick up a tabloid paper flick to page 3, see naked girls, any news agent has porn magazines on the top shelf... It isn't hard to see nude girls, yet I don't know a single girl that I would say has been brainwashed to aspire to that. That mentality is way overplayed. If a girl DOES aspire to that... Why should we call it brain washing, maybe that’s WHAT she wants to do. After all I don't think it is a crime to show off what you've got.
The Hijab, as far as I am aware is kind of like a vale that goes over the hair and onto the shoulders, personally I'm totally fine with that, in fact it can actually be attractive! BUT... It really doesn't do much to hide any features... apart from their hair and it is still 'sexist' in any society where it is forced on woman.
Frankly I think we should all just cast off our clothes and rutt like the animals we are.
Women that are attractive and smart, no doubt they exist. But what kind of attracting are we talking about? Is it the "interest" sorta attract where you think someone looks pretty and she ends up being intelligent? Or the intelligent girl that gets you turned on?
It's like when you have this good female friend which you connect with really well, but all of a sudden when you find out that she let's guys take advantage of her, she sorta loses her respect to you doesn't she? I don't know if that is just me so please confirm if it is, but it's sort of an example where a woman does lose her value in a weird way when she's "easy". Which is again, why I respect the islamic perspective. You shouldn't forget that there are islamic countries where women aren't opressed. Greates example being dubai. If you'd ask me, it's the best place in the world. Women have it good, they have rights but at the same time are not "encouraged" to pull off their clothes and act like bitches. Imo dubai brings best of both worlds.
About the whole MTV thing, it may be cliche, but you shouldn't take that too lightly. My little cousin(my cousin's little sister) is 4 years old and allready singing songs like, "slap that ass on the floor". I honestly laughed but I could see the boys kind of worrying about their little sister. The thing is, even if they'd like to do something about it, the influence around her will still be too great. It's just an example of how making it all fine for women to go all crazy n shit does sorta badly influence the world.
Well I think it would be wise to just agree to disagree. I enjoy talking these kind of subjects and hear other peoples views.
-
I'll agree to disagree here.
I would like to visit 'rich' Dubai before it fails and is returned to the sands of time 20 years from now.
-
But religion? I don't agree... White people can be Muslims, Middle Eastern can be Christian. My English teacher was a white guy and Buddhist. Religion in general, in my opinion is silly but I have no problem with people being religious... Does that make me a racist?
Racism does not apply solely to race. Nationality can be used as the same example as religion. Indians can be British, Chinese can be Americans, English can be Russian, Iranians can be Australian etc
Racism includes anything that can be discriminated.
Are you speaking in code?
I assume you are trying to say I need to do some scientific tests before I suggest that woman in Pakistan are not treated equally...
That's not even what I said.
To hold the belief of someone's belief from the country he is from is considered a form of racism.
To hold the belief (That Cube thinks like this) of someone's belief (Cube arguing sexism in Bayonetta) from the country he is from (Pakistan does not have much women rights, so this is what influencing Cube) is considered a form of racism.
As I said (And as what we've gathered from Cube) the reason that he dislikes Bayonetta is not because he is from Pakistan, these are entirely seperate reasons and if he hated Bayonetta he would hate Tyris and Hibana too, neither characters he does however (And Bayonetta usually has more clothes on than Tyris)
-
I gotta admit, I chuckled a little when Sharky said he wasn't racist. I've heard him say some pretty racist stuff before.
-
Racism does not apply solely to race. Nationality can be used as the same example as religion. Indians can be British, Chinese can be Americans, English can be Russian, Iranians can be Australian etc
Racism includes anything that can be discriminated.
1) If I say both Muslims and Christians are wrong, there is no god. Am I being racist in your opinion?
2)I still haven't said anything racist.
3)If that is the case you've been racist multiple times against the French, Indians and Pakistanis on MSN...
What was it now? Pakistan is the *insert poor country here* of the middle east? People in your trade don't like dealing with them, why was that again?
To hold the belief (That Cube thinks like this) of someone's belief (Cube arguing sexism in Bayonetta) from the country he is from (Pakistan does not have much women rights, so this is what influencing Cube) is considered a form of racism.
That would be racist for sure... But that ISN'T what I was saying. I never even hinted at cube being like this.
I was simply saying that if cube wants to see sexism and combat it, there is quite a bit going on in Pakistan society, It had nothing to do with their race or religion until it was brought up by someone else.
I used this as an example of what sexism is compared to what I would say Bayonetta is, a 'strong, 'sexy' (if you like that kind of thing) female lead.
I gotta admit, I chuckled a little when Sharky said he wasn't racist. I've heard him say some pretty racist stuff before.
Oh look it's Mademan... I was wondering when you'd show up to drop a one liner in someone else’s favour. Bound to be Aki.
When have I been racist... A real example of me having anything against any race?
The only thing you will ever find out of me (and even then I'm joking) is taking the piss out of Americans... But if I hated them so much my girlfriend wouldn't be one and my best friend wouldn't be of Native American decent.
It is funny that I'm getting this BS considering I was the ONLY ONE that wasn't wishy washy about banning Kogen for being racist. Everyone else, especially Sanus were trying to tell me 'he's just funny, he makes the forum lively' When people like Kori and even Aki, Cube etc were getting harassed.
-
Kogen was horrible.
So anyway, my thoughts are these:
1) It doesn't matter if Bayonetta was designed by a woman, because in reality, she was designed by a professional who knew her job, and knew what her target audience was.
Maybe assuming that a woman couldn't make a sexist character is sexist?
2) The idea of objectifying a video-game character is problematic. They are already objects, and they exist discretely in the world they occupy. If you took Bayonetta out of her world and put her in the real world, she would make no sense. She lives in a world where a person like her can exist.
(After making this point, I realize that I still have a problem with Disney plots that teach little girls to wait for the right man -- or prince -- to come along, scoop them out of their current life and define their future for them).
3) Bayonetta is not weak, not repressed, and certainly doesn't let anyone tell her what to do. She has the power to kill god. She fights for her own freedom, but she was also designed for a target audience of males, and moves, talks and even fights in a sexy, teasing sort of way. So our question is, is this sexist?
I think part of what defines her character, part of her power is this male perspective of the woman you could never have. Bayonetta is a tease, and a tease that can kill you with her hair. I think it says a lot about the way people think, and this is a complex subject that would be worth study. Although the game wasn't for me, I think the mythology, or the thinking behind this character and world are really interesting and should not be dismissed so offhandedly.
4) After reading Sharky's post, I asked my wife if Bayonetta was sexist.
"You mean the lady with the guns?"
"Yeah."
"Yes, definitely."
There was more discussion, but I was really interested in her first, gut-level impression. She is a therapist, if that gives you any background. (An actual psychologist, not a college student).
I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations. When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR). She is not that way now.
-
Oh look it's Mademan... I was wondering when you'd show up to drop a one liner in someone else’s favour. Bound to be Aki.
When have I been racist... A real example of me having anything against any race?
If I come in with a 'one liner in someone else's favour' it's not that I'm trying to pick on you, it's just that I disagreed. If you want examples of why I thought so:
There was that time someone was talking in arabic and you described it as 'Then they came in with their fucking 'durka durka muhammed jihad bullshit' or something to that effect.
Another time you said that all Maories and 'Abbos' (A racist name for Aboriginals) looked the same, or that 'They're all the same to me'.
And in this thread, every time cube says someone/something is sexist, you immediately post videos about radical islamic laws or something, basically implying that because he's from Pakistan he must hate women.
In the 'What people are, what they want to be thread' you portrayed Aki-at as dreaming about being a suicide bomber and in reality he was a stereotypical middle-easterner working in a 7-11. He's never shown any indication ever of having extreme religious views, but you still seemed to think he wishes he could be a terrorist, seemingly just because he's islamic.
So yeah, pardon me for disagreeing with you, but I do think that have shown a racist attitude in the past. Do I think you are a bad person or actually hateful? No, I think you say this stuff as a joke sometimes or you don't mean to be offensive, but it's still come across as racist.
For the record, I always hated Kogen's bullshit too, but that was also partly because he was trying too hard for attention.
-
"You mean the lady with the guns?"
"Yeah."
"Yes, definitely."
There was more discussion, but I was really interested in her first, gut-level impression. She is a therapist, if that gives you any background. (An actual psychologist, not a college student).
I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations. When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR). She is not that way now.
Cool, a full fledge psychologist. I would like to add you to my msn.
-
I would say that at least in my experience, a girlfriend may mask her opinions because a new (or at least uncommitted) relationship is a little fragile, but a wife has no such reservations. When we were dating, she was polite and non-committal about some of the death/thrash-metal music I listen to (King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Slayer, GWAR). She is not that way now.
Trust me, my girlfriend has no reservation telling me what she doesn’t like. I also didn't get her into Bayonetta directly she bought it herself and went onto buy the Bayonetta gun from ebay too.
Nothing to do with me, I should also say that it is the only game I've seen her play all day once.
She really has no problem with the character and in fact likes it.
I don't think your wife would feel pressured to agree with you but I do wonder if she is looking at 'sexism' in the same way as cube it. I mean gut reaction to a girl like Bayonetta would be 'sexist' but after playing through the game I would disagree, so would my girlfriend.
There was that time someone was talking in arabic and you described it as 'Then they came in with their fucking 'durka durka muhammed jihad bullshit' or something to that effect.
This I do not agree with, don't remember happening and outright disagree that it was me.
As far as I've ever gone with regard to language is saying 'moon speak' for other languages...
Another time you said that all Maories and 'Abbos' (A racist name for Aboriginals) looked the same, or that 'They're all the same to me'.
I'll hold my hand up and admit that I did say 'Abbos' I didn't actually know it was a racial slur though. Also, I can whole heartedly promise that I do remember that convocation and I also remember the reason was that I had no idea (and still don’t) know how to spell 'aboriginay'...(I just googled that.)
I don't remember saying 'they all look the same' but I wouldn't be shocked if I did... I honestly have heard just about every race say 'these people look the same' I've heard it from whites about blacks, blacks about Asians, Hispanics about whites and so on, pretty much everyone. (George to me lol)
In fact the other week I was watching a documentary about white people going to an African tribe and the Africans were saying in their language how they find all white people look the same with their 'big noses' tbh it just makes me laugh.
If I'm completely honest I think there really is something in each race that makes it easier to tell their own peoples features apart while the features of other races seem less obvious.
And in this thread, every time cube says someone/something is sexist, you immediately post videos about radical islamic laws or something, basically implying that because he's from Pakistan he must hate women.
You are exaggerating... and again, like I just told aki. I'm not saying anything of the sort and I'm clearly being misunderstood (on purpose by some I'm sure...)
Even though I have made no connection between Cube hating woman. Why are people putting these words in my mouth... I'm just giving an example of sexism in a country he comes from. I never ONCE insinuated that he did, he did anything sexist or hateful or that EVERYONE in Pakistan does... Go back and read my comments from the start.
Oh and as for anything I said about Aki, that is a joke. I wasn't the only one either... I believe it came about as a joke after Aki sounding a little sympathetic towards suicide bombers in convosation long ago.
Fact is if you dig hard enough you could find these faux 'racism' comments from pretty much anyone... If you want to pull me up on these things and call me racist then this forum is flat out full of racists.
-
Cool, a full fledge psychologist. I would like to add you to my msn.
:) I'm terrible about chat clients. I haven't been on them in years. They make work impossible for me.
Trust me, my girlfriend has no reservation telling me what she doesn’t like. I also didn't get her into Bayonetta directly she bought it herself and went onto buy the Bayonetta gun from ebay too.
Nothing to do with me, I should also say that it is the only game I've seen her play all day once.
She really has no problem with the character and in fact likes it.
I don't think your wife would feel pressured to agree with you but I do wonder if she is looking at 'sexism' in the same way as cube it. I mean gut reaction to a girl like Bayonetta would be 'sexist' but after playing through the game I would disagree, so would my girlfriend.
Of course I can only speak from my own experience. Of course you know better with your own relationship. :mrgreen:
You may be right. She never played it, but she did watch me play large sections of the game as I was getting toward the end.
Anyway, I think we can agree that although there are female gamers, and there are female gamers playing Bayonetta, the target audience is men. That doesn't make the game sexist, though.
Also, can we stop calling each other racist? I think if someone has a problem with a specific post, you should report it, but it feels like it's gotten out of hand.
-
1) If I say both Muslims and Christians are wrong, there is no god. Am I being racist in your opinion?.
No, however thinking that they are incapable of x or x would be another matter. If they are being sectioned out simply for being what they are, then that is a cause for concern. Basically anyone can be discriminated.
3)If that is the case you've been racist multiple times against the French.
This is why my avatar for around two years is of a 60 year old football manager from France and a man I hold in high regards.
Indians
What have I even once said about Indians?
and Pakistanis on MSN...
What was it now? Pakistan is the *insert poor country here* of the middle east? People in your trade don't like dealing with them, why was that again?
Firstly, Pakistan is not in the Middle East, it's in the Indian subcontinent and it is in sharp decline over the past few years, a fact. Terrorist activities has destabilize large portions of the country.
And yes, people in my trade do not like dealing with Pakistanis and I have met landlords who have said they do not want Pakistanis because they are too much trouble for them, but that does not mean I do not deal with them, as long as they have good credit and references, it is no problem for me.
That would be racist for sure... But that ISN'T what I was saying. I never even hinted at cube being like this.
Bayonetta is sexist but in Pakistan where cube (the main accuser of Bayonetta being sexist) is from it is deeply rooted and widely accepted, and it is.
So why are you going on about Pakistan when it has nothing to do with the discussion and the reason on how Cube feels about the character? He has even posted beforehand about the radical problems of his country too and that comment there did imply his country had an influence in his thinking.
Oh and as for anything I said about Aki, that is a joke. I wasn't the only one either... I believe it came about as a joke after Aki sounding a little sympathetic towards suicide bombers in convosation long ago.
I do not care about name calling much but I have never ever been sympathetic to suicide bombers at any point of my life so I have no idea where you've come to this conclusion with? I allow jokes to be made at my expense of course but I've never actually made any allowence for said jokes that originate solely from my background.
-
I'm glad that you responded to my examples Sharky, and again, note that I don't think you are a hateful person or a bad person because of those things, but just that they did sound racist at the time.
Trust me, I've heard far, far worse from people, especially in regards to Aborigines. And to be fair, almost everyone uses the term 'Abbo', it's not a nice thing to say, but it's also not usually used in a hateful way.
-
No, however thinking that they are incapable of x or x would be another matter. If they are being sectioned out simply for being what they are, then that is a cause for concern. Basically anyone can be discriminated.
I have no problem with people wearing what ever they like... if someone wants to wear a berqua that is fine with me. That I have said from the very start.
But my original point was that surely woman should be able to choose to wear one or not... Or even be athiest if they want. MY point is that females are often controlled/seen as lesser then men in Pakistan society. Many other countrys too but I was using Pakistan as an example simply because cube is from there and he can relate to it.
This is why my avatar for around two years is of a 60 year old football manager from France and a man I hold in high regards.
I don't think what I've said in this thread is anymore racist then anything you have said about french people...
I'm not saying you are racist... I'm just pointing out the double standards as I don't think I've said anything racist.
What have I even once said about Indians?
I accidently mentioned you ran an indian cafe/resteraunt and I remember you reacted in a 'disgusted' way to it... Even though indian food is fantastic.
Firstly, Pakistan is not in the Middle East, it's in the Indian subcontinent and it is in sharp decline over the past few years, a fact. Terrorist activities has destabilize large portions of the country.
And yes, people in my trade do not like dealing with Pakistanis and I have met landlords who have said they do not want Pakistanis because they are too much trouble for them, but that does not mean I do not deal with them, as long as they have good credit and references, it is no problem for me.
Well then, I don't think I've been anymore racist then this right here... Frankly I've yet to find anything I've said that is racist but if you think I have then this is just as bad as anything Ive said, if not worse.
I mean the reason you brought this up was related to Cube...
So why are you going on about Pakistan when it has nothing to do with the discussion and the reason on how Cube feels about the character? He has even posted beforehand about the radical problems of his country too and that comment there did imply his country had an influence in his thinking.
Because why ever not?
It's a good example of what I would call sexism in a way he can probably relate to/has seen happening.
I never in this thread said that Cube is LIKE this, only that it happens in his country.
I do not care about name calling much but I have never ever been sympathetic to suicide bombers at any point of my life so I have no idea where you've come to this conclusion with? I allow jokes to be made at my expense of course but I've never actually made any allowence for said jokes that originate solely from my background.
Not a conclusion I've come too... But I wasn't the first person making these jokes about you either... In fact I really don't remember making these jokes at all but I wont deny it, it's possible but it's also a joke... and not at your expense either. If it bothers you I think you should make it known amongst alot more people on this forum then me.