SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: NiGHTS on February 19, 2010, 12:37:12 pm
-
[youtube:phqs59hx]Jf1d_haG3Rk[/youtube:phqs59hx]
-
Ah, but can you assist store owners in straightening out their signs?
-
Thank you you handsome Nightopian, you shall be rewarded gracefully for this kind act.
[spoiler:115emxxb]Yeeeah only getting a mention on the front page![/spoiler:115emxxb]
-
fuck yeah.
take that space marine gamers. :|
-
fuck yeah.
take that space marine gamers. :|
Yeah take that! now you can all ignore this game and continue to play your space marine games while we do not get Yakuza 4! THAT'LL TEACH EM!
-
fuck yeah.
take that space marine gamers. :|
Yeah take that! now you can all ignore this game and continue to play your space marine games while we do not get Yakuza 4! THAT'LL TEACH EM!
do you not think that stigmatizing a mainstream genre is a good tactic to encourage interest in a niche game? maybe not.
whatever helps sell the franchise.. I just thought some reverse psychology might entice those kind of on the fringe of interest, rather than alienate those who probably wouldn't buy, but I realize that is a gray area not easy to define.
-
fuck yeah.
take that space marine gamers. :|
Yeah take that! now you can all ignore this game and continue to play your space marine games while we do not get Yakuza 4! THAT'LL TEACH EM!
do you not think that stigmatizing a mainstream genre is a good tactic to encourage interest in a niche game? maybe not.
whatever helps sell the franchise.. I just thought some reverse psychology might entice those kind of on the fringe of interest, rather than alienate those who probably wouldn't buy, but I realize that is a gray area not easy to define.
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
-
More games should let you bash peoples heads in one second and fondle a woman the next and change a diaper the next.
Of course in America if you mix any of these together you will go to jail, but this is Japan we are on about.
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
I was going to put "preaching to the choir" somewhere in an alternate version of my response. :lol:
There's nothing wrong with taking a jab at a mainstream genre that I hate that suppresses my beautiful little artistic game to a tiny little niche??? :mrgreen:
Let me ask you this...
In Bayonetta Chapter 6 (maybe 5, crap memory..) after she fights her "double" there is a Cherub statue wearing a halo and she comments:
"he's got a cute little halo, shows how seriously they take their religion around here."
I would guess you noticed that.. Is that not a direct jibe at mainstream gaming (space marine :P ) in the form of an in-joke by the game creators?
Religion? Equating gaming as a religion and space marine games as a heretical affront against them?
Now that is right in line with my thinking and from the very game creators themselves, my friend. :mrgreen:
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
Not me , The Yakuza series is fast running out of idea's , and is getting boring and tired , I thought Yakuza III was a massive setp backwards .
I've seen nothing new in Yakuza IV , and only doing what Shenmue did over 10 years ago - Lets put in Weather effects , let take to the roof tops :shock:
SEGA will fast kill of the Yakuza Team , you can not do FIFA style yearly updates for what is in-effect a 30+ RPG. Its a sure fire way to lead to staff leaving , lack of anything new to the series .
I wouldn't say too much , but the Yakuza Team and people like Masayoshi Kikuchi are the real talent , when it comes to the consumer teams
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
I hear you brother.
I like how they've introduced three new fighting styles with Kazuma to keep things a bit more fresh, the cop kid is probably going to be enjoyable a bit (Since his based completely on counters) and adding the depth to Tokyo in almost all areas is going to be a blast to play through. Going to be enjoyable to track down those thugs on the rooftops!
Just hoping Kazuma still appears a decent amount, going to want to crack some skulls with him, but then the big guy seems to have the more brutal heat move!
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
Not me , The Yakuza series is fast running out of idea's , and is getting boring and tired , I thought Yakuza III was a massive setp backwards .
I've seen nothing new in Yakuza IV , and only doing what Shenmue did over 10 years ago - Lets put in Weather effects , let take to the roof tops :shock:
SEGA will fast kill of the Yakuza Team , you can not do FIFA style yearly updates for what is in-effect a 30+ RPG. Its a sure fire way to lead to staff leaving , lack of anything new to the series .
I wouldn't say too much , but the Yakuza Team and people like Masayoshi Kikuchi are the real talent , when it comes to the consumer teams
While I do agree the Yakuza series is going to be over milked if they don't make other games between sequals. It isnt a series I want to see end, I would much rather it took off in the West and we got one every 2 or 3 years.
-
Not me , The Yakuza series is fast running out of idea's , and is getting boring and tired , I thought Yakuza III was a massive setp backwards .
I've seen nothing new in Yakuza IV , and only doing what Shenmue did over 10 years ago - Lets put in Weather effects , let take to the roof tops :shock:
SEGA will fast kill of the Yakuza Team , you can not do FIFA style yearly updates for what is in-effect a 30+ RPG. Its a sure fire way to lead to staff leaving , lack of anything new to the series .
I wouldn't say too much , but the Yakuza Team and people like Masayoshi Kikuchi are the real talent , when it comes to the consumer teams
Is there little chance Yakuza Team would work on Shenmue? Does AM2 have a consumer division anymore?
While I do agree the Yakuza series is going to be over milked if they don't make other games between sequals. It isnt a series I want to see end, I would much rather it took off in the West and we got one every 2 or 3 years.
That the Yakuza engine be modified and Shenmue be the "other game in between" would be nice.. Any realistic chance of that?
-
While I do agree the Yakuza series is going to be over milked if they don't make other games between sequals. It isnt a series I want to see end, I would much rather it took off in the West and we got one every 2 or 3 years.
In little over 5 years , we've had (well about too) 5 Yakuza games , that insane , when each game is like a 20 to 30 + Hr RPG, and not even a single issue game like (FIFA) .
It's a sure fire way to limited new idea's , really improve the series , and kill the Staff/Team and see them leave SEGA. The staff working on The new Monkey Ball or VAL II have had more development time , its madness imo .
It's going the way of Sonic , even to the point of introducing new playable characters , in a effort to hide the lack of anything new.
I know its a great series for SEGA in terms of marketshare in Japan , but the Team got to be given 2 to 3 years development time , for each new Yakuza game .
-
While I do agree the Yakuza series is going to be over milked if they don't make other games between sequals. It isnt a series I want to see end, I would much rather it took off in the West and we got one every 2 or 3 years.
In little over 5 years , we've had (well about too) 5 Yakuza games , that insane , when each game is like a 20 to 30 + Hr RPG, and not even a single issue game like (FIFA) .
It's a sure fire way to limited new idea's , really improve the series , and kill the Staff/Team and see them leave SEGA. The staff working on The new Monkey Ball or VAL II have had more development time , its madness imo .
It's going the way of Sonic , even to the point of introducing new playable characters , in a effort to hide the lack of anything new.
I know its a great series for SEGA in terms of marketshare in Japan , but the Team got to be given 2 to 3 years development time , for each new Yakuza game .
I agree, I would like to see at least 1 game released from that team between each Yakuza release... Maybe Nagoshis so called 'western game' he talks about every so often but never shows will be that game to punctuate the Yakuza releases.
East of Eastside, no, I think its unlikely and I would not be very happy with it. For Shenmue, AM2 or nothing.
-
East of Eastside, no, I think its unlikely and I would not be very happy with it. For Shenmue, AM2 or nothing.
It would not be my ideal first choice for how Shenmue should return.. I just got influenced by Sonic 4's Dimps connection into thinking I should be conditioned to accept a compromise.
Are you of the opinion that it should be a Suzuki, AM2 Shenmue III, or no Shenmue III at all?
I honestly, would have to give it a lot of thought whether I would want a Shenmue III that's not Suzuki or AM2.. a less than 'pure' Shenmue or no Shenmue is a likely scenario to consider in the franchise return.
If it does come back, we might go through the the whole 'Sonic 4' thing again but on a bigger and more complex scale.
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
I was going to put "preaching to the choir" somewhere in an alternate version of my response. :lol:
There's nothing wrong with taking a jab at a mainstream genre that I hate that suppresses my beautiful little artistic game to a tiny little niche??? :mrgreen:
I've said this before, but I feel the need to tell you again. Halo and Mass Effect (I assume these are the main targets of your 'space marine' jab) are just as 'artistic' and hardcore as Yakuza is. Just because Yakuza doesn't sell as well doesn't change that.
Still a brilliant series, but it's still something created for mass appeal IMO.
-
But your preaching to the choir! Pretty much everyone here is interested in the Yakuza series to some degree!
I was going to put "preaching to the choir" somewhere in an alternate version of my response. :lol:
There's nothing wrong with taking a jab at a mainstream genre that I hate that suppresses my beautiful little artistic game to a tiny little niche??? :mrgreen:
I've said this before, but I feel the need to tell you again. Halo and Mass Effect (I assume these are the main targets of your 'space marine' jab) are just as 'artistic' and hardcore as Yakuza is. Just because Yakuza doesn't sell as well doesn't change that.
Still a brilliant series, but it's still something created for mass appeal IMO.
I don't know.
I would like to leave Mass Effect off the discussion merely because I'm not very familiar with it.. Halo and other space marine games are mainstream because they are played by a wide audience e.g. a jock, a teacher, a kid, etc could be a consumer of it.
Now, Yakuza.. Do you realistically see a jock playing that? Not likely.. It is a "gamers game". That is the distinction I'm making.
That is doesn't sell as well, is saying something..
-
Eastside, you are just saying that because YOU like to think of yourself as better than the people who enjoy "Mainstream games".
Ryu ga Gotoku is one of the biggest game franchises in Japan right now. It is specifically designed to appeal to the "Mainstream" over there - The land of where more than half of their games are based around giving the player erections from single images with text scrolling by telling you how the avatar is enjoying itself. I am not sure how they are classified as "Gamers" before everyone else, if that is what you meant.
-
Eastside, you are just saying that because YOU like to think of yourself as better than the people who enjoy "Mainstream games".
I'm asocial and god fearing, so this is just some internet pop-psychology..
Ryu ga Gotoku is one of the biggest game franchises in Japan right now. It is specifically designed to appeal to the "Mainstream" over there - The land of where more than half of their games are based around giving the player erections from single images with text scrolling by telling you how the avatar is enjoying itself. I am not sure how they are classified as "Gamers" before everyone else, if that is what you meant.
Of course it has, naturally, mainstream japanese society appeal given the content of the game, but you are really dismissing it if this is just another game for sex starved pedophiles or whatever..
This game is a hybrid that has craftfully mixed elements of a fighter, rpg, sandbox game and sim all together. It is Nagoshi, Sega's premier artist. This game is unique and one of a kind, however mainstream appealing one might say it is, the fact is you can't name another game like it without inaccurately saying "GTA".
I'm talking about hardcore gamers that game to the exclusion of all other activity. Making a distinction from core mainstream gamers that have broader tastes and interests outside gaming.
This used to be our hobby a decade ago.
-
Wacky World of Sports is a more artistic and hardcore game than The Witcher. Look how mainstream Witcher is (1 Million sales on PC alone!) compared to how niche WWS is.
:P
As for Yakuza being 'one of a kind', yes it is pretty unique when you take everything into account, but so was Halo when it first came out, and arguably it still is. It really set a lot of trends for years to come with it's regenerating health system, two weapon limits, fantastic use of vehicles, co-operative based map designs etc.
It had fantastic marketing behind it and it's got accessible and fun gameplay, so of course it's popular, but being popular doesn't mean it's any less of a game (yes it's mainstream, but I don't see why that should be a bad thing at all. It's mainstream without making concessions).
Yakuza is great for it's own reasons, but it's not really fair to praise it highly as a saviour for 'hardcore' gaming and then bash other games that are also great games for gamers just because they are more successful.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCzQrufMpX8
http://facemeandscream.com/blog/mainstr ... -the-x-box (http://facemeandscream.com/blog/mainstream-gamers-and-why-i-hate-the-x-box)
-
Holy shit, get a life. Seriously. Your post did not even have anything to do with the topic.
The video is complaining about games not having enough gameplay and too much story. Sorry, but who the fuck cares? There are different genres for different types of games, instead of bitching about some franchise that you do not like, why not just move on and play a game you DO like? Is it really so hard to do so? Last I checked, Shenmue (which is a game you like) did not have much "Gameplay", unless you consider pressing A to continue a conversation gameplay, I do not see how this has more action than something like Madden, which to my knowledge never even had cutscenes?
The article is just as bad. Literally everything the guy whined about Microsoft doing there was done by SEGA over 10 years prior. I guess SEGA should be blamed for "Ruining" the industry then, yeah?!?
-
Eastside can post those vids, but it shows he has no argument, since he had absolutely nothing to say in relation to my post.
Once again, if you have any actual arguments against games like Halo or other popular series, then I would love to hear them, but don't just type 'Casual games r bad' in to google and post the first results.
The fact is there are games out right now, sitting on shelves (even on the Wii) that are just as good or better than the 'old hardcore' games on Genesis, Saturn and Dreamcast. If you choose to ignore them and not buy them, then YOU are killing the games industry.
-
get over yourselves, the video was just a joke. touchy.. must be threatening somehow.
Eastside can post those vids, but it shows he has no argument, since he had absolutely nothing to say in relation to my post.
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
I'm playing a Wii hardcore game right now?
I think your threatened and resentful when confronted with the reality of your mass audience status.
-
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
That's just so silly . There's been far more Platform games than FPS's over the years , and the same rubbish that people spout about so called Space Marine games , people spouted in the 16 bit days with Yawn..... , not another Platform game , can't we have something new.
Every Genre been done to death , and just like in the so called Good old Day's ( 8/16/32 bit) there's been a Genre that does better than most , and so you get a flood of those type of games . I wouldn't like to list how many Platform and RPG the Snes and Mega Drive can boost , but somehow that was so HardCore back then ?
Its all rather silly and pathetic , and I really don't get what makes someone a HardCore gamer , or what makes a Hardcore game . What to be a Hardcore gamer , one needs to play their Mega Drive in the nude , with a fully errect Penis. Oh man those were the HardCore days :roll:
-
Its all rather silly and pathetic , and I really don't get what makes someone a HardCore gamer , or what makes a Hardcore game . What to be a Hardcore gamer , one needs to play their Mega Drive in the nude , with a fully errect Penis. Oh man those were the HardCore days :roll:
=/
-
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
I'm playing a Wii hardcore game right now?
I think your threatened and resentful when confronted with the reality of your mass audience status.
I posted up arguments as to why it was unique for it's time. I gave you direct and sensible arguments against what you were claiming, but you didn't read them.
Afraid that you'll realise you are wrong?
I think you are threatened and resentful when confronted with the truth.
-
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
I'm playing a Wii hardcore game right now?
I think your threatened and resentful when confronted with the reality of your mass audience status.
I posted up arguments as to why it was unique for it's time. I gave you direct and sensible arguments against what you were claiming, but you didn't read them.
I have no argument about it being unique for it's time.. It's all the sequels and spawn of space marine games that followed. Space marines are a mass audience staple now..
Afraid that you'll realise you are wrong?
I think you are threatened and resentful when confronted with the truth.
Well, it was the onset of mainstream gaming a decade ago that killed the old Sega and killed DC, so.. ? I don't feel "wrong", more like I'm stating something factual that already occurred.
Believe me I appreciate your good and detailed points, most people don't bother outling stuff as well as you do.. I'm sorry it's just I've been over this road many, many times and it takes time to develop. But I'll try...
It's a basic principle of art and commerce that commercialization lowers the art value of a product or entertainment. When something is made to sell to a mass audience it is made to appeal to a mass audience and thus the artistic ideal of a game is lowered to make it most conducive for mass consumption. Look at the Sonic games, they are a good example of that.. Look at how in 15 years there hasn't been a Sonic game that has lived up to the classic Sonic fan ideal.
DC had a line-up of extremely artsy and niche games.. the market was moving in another direction, though. Mass audiences beyond the traditional hardcore gamer came into gaming in waves thanks to Playstation 1 & 2, Xbox and EA and Activision. Sega used to lead the art of gaming but in got increasingly relegated to a niche as they no longer resonated with the new gaming audiences that went for big budget franchises and their sequels over quirky, innovative and original titles.
Space marines = mass audience gaming. A hardcore old school gamer may play a space marine game and that is perfectly fine, but there are a lot of mainstreamers playing them and that is where art and innovation get compromised to get their dollars..
You say I'm killing the industry, I say that is fine because I want to see a smaller more niche industry with few consumers and fewer and higher quality and innovative games. Gone are the days where a Suzuki, Naka, Miyamoto, or whoever led game design by pursuing their artistic visions. The producers today have to follow the design parameters outlined to them by the marketers. Look at werehog that everybody complained about as an example.. Look at Mario.. SMB, SMB3, SMB4 were brilliant works of art.. NSMBWii while maybe being a fun game is really low in the art of Mario. just some examples..
I'll see what you have to say before going on more.
-
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
That's just so silly . There's been far more Platform games than FPS's over the years , and the same rubbish that people spout about so called Space Marine games , people spouted in the 16 bit days with Yawn..... , not another Platform game , can't we have something new.
Every Genre been done to death , and just like in the so called Good old Day's ( 8/16/32 bit) there's been a Genre that does better than most , and so you get a flood of those type of games . I wouldn't like to list how many Platform and RPG the Snes and Mega Drive can boost , but somehow that was so HardCore back then ?
Its all rather silly and pathetic , and I really don't get what makes someone a HardCore gamer , or what makes a Hardcore game . What to be a Hardcore gamer , one needs to play their Mega Drive in the nude , with a fully errect Penis. Oh man those were the HardCore days :roll:
I don't know you too well, I respect and appreciate your opinions, but I guess I figured you as a traditionalist which is why I'm surprised by your response.. I guess I would respond by saying back in the day, yes, there were a ton of platformers but those were quirky novel and artistic games being played by gamers. They were gamer's games. And also there were plenty of shoot em ups, fighters, rpg's and brawlers to balance the offerings. Contrast that with space marines that are a staple of mass audience gaming played by everybody, not just the traditional hardcore gamer. Space marine, armored suit, guns it is all a cliche repeated over and over through commoditization of the genre. At least the old platformers had more variety amongst them. I'm just not a fan of everybody gaming.. In the old days gamers were ahead of the curve, they were unique.. gameplay was more intrinsic, game art was more evocative and varied.. Now games are for everyone and games designed to appeal to everyone don't express anything meaningful to me.. It's just pointless recreation time for the masses.
people spouted in the 16 bit days with Yawn..... , not another Platform game , can't we have something new.
Just curious, but what region are you from? I don't remember that talk.. Weren't the 16bit days over before the internet gaming discussion started, maybe I came to it later?
-
I don't know you too well, I respect and appreciate your opinions, but I guess I figured you as a traditionalist which is why I'm surprised by your response.. I guess I would respond by saying back in the day, yes, there were a ton of platformers but those were quirky novel and artistic games being played by gamers. They were gamer's games. And also there were plenty of shoot em ups, fighters, rpg's and brawlers to balance the offerings.
The trouble there’s shooters and fighters around now , they just don’t sell as good , nothing to do with FPS's , but just the way of the world . Fight Sims , Point and Click have all suffered too , but only because not enough people like or want to plat those style of games . Shooters , Fighting games were ding a slow a death in the 32bit erea , otherwise the Saturn would have cleaned up , with time people tastes change and so do the markets
I mean once Coin-Ups were vastly more powerful than consumer based consoles , that simply isn't the case now . That down to FPS's too, in a market where FPS game have never really made impact
You go on about Artistic an novel , what was novel or Artistic about Mario IV, or SEGA's Disney series of games ???. Nothing new at all , to there to see, nothing striking in Art terms (unlike say Yoshi Island) . They just played well , and were in a genre, that at that time was in the vogue and hugely popular .
It's silly talk , as Panzer Dragoon fan , I would love to see the series sell as well as the so called Space Marine Games , I would have loved to see the series sell 30 million plus , as I'm sure any SEGA fan would , same goes for Jet Set Radio.
If those games sold by the pot full , I wouldn't look at them any less at all , in fact I would be over the moon .
Just curious, but what region are you from? I don't remember that talk.. Weren't the 16bit days over before the internet gaming discussion started, maybe I came to it later
UK, and in the 16 bit days , Magazines and TV shows were all moaning at the lack of anything new , and yawn another platform game , or yawn another platform film licensed based game - how original (a lot said that for the Judge Dread Mega Drive game)
-
I can't respond to a statement that Halo is still unique when fps space marine is the most commercially exploited genre in all western gaming, so I just dismiss it.
I'm playing a Wii hardcore game right now?
I think your threatened and resentful when confronted with the reality of your mass audience status.
I posted up arguments as to why it was unique for it's time. I gave you direct and sensible arguments against what you were claiming, but you didn't read them.
I have no argument about it being unique for it's time.. It's all the sequels and spawn of space marine games that followed. Space marines are a mass audience staple now..
Afraid that you'll realise you are wrong?
I think you are threatened and resentful when confronted with the truth.
Well, it was the onset of mainstream gaming a decade ago that killed the old Sega and killed DC, so.. ? I don't feel "wrong", more like I'm stating something factual that already occurred.
Believe me I appreciate your good and detailed points, most people don't bother outling stuff as well as you do.. I'm sorry it's just I've been over this road many, many times and it takes time to develop. But I'll try...
It's a basic principle of art and commerce that commercialization lowers the art value of a product or entertainment. When something is made to sell to a mass audience it is made to appeal to a mass audience and thus the artistic ideal of a game is lowered to make it most conducive for mass consumption. Look at the Sonic games, they are a good example of that.. Look at how in 15 years there hasn't been a Sonic game that has lived up to the classic Sonic fan ideal.
DC had a line-up of extremely artsy and niche games.. the market was moving in another direction, though. Mass audiences beyond the traditional hardcore gamer came into gaming in waves thanks to Playstation 1 & 2, Xbox and EA and Activision. Sega used to lead the art of gaming but in got increasingly relegated to a niche as they no longer resonated with the new gaming audiences that went for big budget franchises and their sequels over quirky, innovative and original titles.
Space marines = mass audience gaming. A hardcore old school gamer may play a space marine game and that is perfectly fine, but there are a lot of mainstreamers playing them and that is where art and innovation get compromised to get their dollars..
You say I'm killing the industry, I say that is fine because I want to see a smaller more niche industry with few consumers and fewer and higher quality and innovative games. Gone are the days where a Suzuki, Naka, Miyamoto, or whoever led game design by pursuing their artistic visions. The producers today have to follow the design parameters outlined to them by the marketers. Look at werehog that everybody complained about as an example.. Look at Mario.. SMB, SMB3, SMB4 were brilliant works of art.. NSMBWii while maybe being a fun game is really low in the art of Mario. just some examples..
I'll see what you have to say before going on more.
I think you are on a different tangent to what I was arguing about. I understand your views on why you think that more gamers hurts the industry, and I disagree entirely (mostly because more gamers=more potential buyers and more budget for the niche titles).
The thing I was arguing about was that games that you dismiss as too 'mainstream' or too 'casual', games like Halo, Mass Effect, Gears of War and what have you, have just as much artistic merit to them (Or close to it) and are just as deserving of praise, and are made for 'long time gamers' just as much as Yakuza is.
You said you agree with me that Halo was unique for it's time, but you don't like that it's been imitated so many times, or that the setting has become so popular. But by that same logic, look how little Yakuza has changes through the series, and how much of a hackney is the 'gritty crime/revenge' setting now?
I agree with you Yakuza is a good series, I loved Yakuza and I'm nearly through Yakuza and love it even more, but I won't praise it at the expense of other great games out there is all.
-
The trouble there’s shooters and fighters around now , they just don’t sell as good , nothing to do with FPS's , but just the way of the world . Fight Sims , Point and Click have all suffered too , but only because not enough people like or want to plat those style of games . Shooters , Fighting games were ding a slow a death in the 32bit erea , otherwise the Saturn would have cleaned up , with time people tastes change and so do the markets
I mean once Coin-Ups were vastly more powerful than consumer based consoles , that simply isn't the case now . That down to FPS's too, in a market where FPS game have never really made impact
You go on about Artistic an novel , what was novel or Artistic about Mario IV, or SEGA's Disney series of games ???. Nothing new at all , to there to see, nothing striking in Art terms (unlike say Yoshi Island) . They just played well , and were in a genre, that at that time was in the vogue and hugely popular .
It's silly talk , as Panzer Dragoon fan , I would love to see the series sell as well as the so called Space Marine Games , I would have loved to see the series sell 30 million plus , as I'm sure any SEGA fan would , same goes for Jet Set Radio.
If those games sold by the pot full , I wouldn't look at them any less at all , in fact I would be over the moon .
My viewpoint needed to be made more accurate than I was stating it. It's not the popularity of the genres or the how well they sell that I'm concerned about rather the waves of mass audience gamers that have been brought in the last decade by the big mainstream genres. These genres like fps are bringing expanded audiences beyond the traditional game audiences of the past. I blame them, whether that is accurate or not is another argument, for lowering the art value of gaming as a whole.
Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche. So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this. This is my whole point and my issue with modern mainstream gaming. If gaming had never taken off in this direction we would have those niche titles today. These are after all gamer's games where as fps are games for a wide range of people of varying degree of gaming dedication and appreciation. You are making my point.
-
I think you are on a different tangent to what I was arguing about. I understand your views on why you think that more gamers hurts the industry, and I disagree entirely (mostly because more gamers=more potential buyers and more budget for the niche titles).
I think we were on a different tangent conflict too. Some of that is my fault for not getting more specific about my real issues being the audiences and not the genre themselves. I have no problem with your disagreement because that is something up to debate, but there were more niche title before the mainstream craze took off with PS1/2 and Xbox, so that is something to think about.
The thing I was arguing about was that games that you dismiss as too 'mainstream' or too 'casual', games like Halo, Mass Effect, Gears of War and what have you, have just as much artistic merit to them (Or close to it) and are just as deserving of praise, and are made for 'long time gamers' just as much as Yakuza is.
I'm still calling Yakuza a "gamer's game" (in the traditional old school hardcore gamer sense) and the fps's, core mainstream games. I don't know if this will help, but I'm kind of following this distinction:
http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D ... ream_Gamer (http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/DGCS#Mainstream_Gamer)
Mainstream Gamer
These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)
Core Gamer
This is the third largest portion of the gaming community and they usually get along with all of the other types of gamers since they tend to have a little of each in them. These types of gamers have very broad tastes in games and will play virtually anything presented to them as long as they find it entertaining. (This is you, my friend) They tend to lean to more complex games however, RTS and RPG's, with a healthy smattering of variety. These type of gamers schedule varies, but they love gaming and see it as more than just a method of entertainment, often participating in online message boards and following news and trade shows for the games/hardware of their choice. These gamers are early adopters of the hardware of their choice and buy games often.
Gaming Time: 2-7 Days A Week/On Average 2-6 Hours A Day Preffered Hardware: PS3/Wii/360/Handhelds/PC
HardCore Gamer
This type of gamer takes his gaming VERY seriously. They see gaming as a way of life, (This is me, the real old school psycho's) and gaming tends to be very prevalent in every aspect of their day-to-day lives, often participating VERY actively in online message boards and following news and going to trade shows for the games/hardware of their choice. These types of gamers tend to be more selective in the games they choose, often shunning more mainstream titles (Here we go) and opting for more complex and/or time-consuming titles. They tend to go for mastery of a title, often playing and re-playing games to experience everything a title has to offer. These types of gamers are usually day-one adopters and buyers of games, often even importers for early release or rare titles. These types of gamers are a minority in the community and often don't get along with any other type of gamer(Oops! :mrgreen: ), except the Core Gamers (Sometimes :lol: ).
Gaming Time: 3-7 Days A Week/ On Average 4-8 Hours A Day Preffered Hardware: 360/PS3/Handhelds/PC
You said you agree with me that Halo was unique for it's time, but you don't like that it's been imitated so many times, or that the setting has become so popular. But by that same logic, look how little Yakuza has changes through the series, and how much of a hackney is the 'gritty crime/revenge' setting now?
Okay, I've clarified now that what I really don't like is the wave of mass audience brought into gaming by fps. Yakuza hasn't brought any mainstream audiences into gaming, at least in the west, so I make that distinction between it and fps's. As far as specifically what you are saying about setting, in Yakuza's case I have a strong bias towards Japanese aesthetic and atmosphere, which Yakuza is rich in. Who knows, even though Vanquish may be fps I may be cool with it for that same reason. I don't have a problem with Japanese mainstream because it is a different phenomenon than west. Japanese society is more spirtual and aesthetic than west.
I agree with you Yakuza is a good series, I loved Yakuza and I'm nearly through Yakuza and love it even more, but I won't praise it at the expense of other great games out there is all.
You shouldn't view it as praising at the expense, more like taking a jab at dominant genre that monopolize media attention and gamer mindshare and relegates a great game like this to being a tiny overlooked niche title.
Neither you or TA really addressed the matter of the decline of Sega following with the rise of mainstream gaming and I really think that vindicates a lot of my view. Something worth thinking about...
-
The only reason SEGA became popular at ALL was because they designed games that appealed to the masses, like Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, OutRun, etc etc. The Dreamcast especially had a lot of games designed specifically to attract a "Casual" crowd with titles such as Space Channel 5 and Samba De Amigo - But it was not because of that the Dreamcast died, or was it the PlayStation 2, it was because SEGA was stupid and made a product that was insanely easy to pirate that everything just collapsed within itself and they had to abandon ship.
Of course they wanted to make more artistic games, like Ecco the Dolphin and in the case of that, it was a success, but more often than not, games that try to be too new or creative are a bad idea if you want to be successful, but it is also good to take risks sometimes. Of course, with the economy the way it is, you are obviously not going to see it much.
Really, it just comes down to you saying game X is better than game Y and that you are a better person for liking it and everyone else is ruining your fun somehow. I mean, just because you like something does not mean everyone will. I personally hate Jet Set Radio, Valkyria Chronicles, Phantasy Star II, but that does not make me any less of a SEGA fan, in fact almost all of my games are at the very least published by them. I am sure there are some games SEGA made that you do not like either, yeah?
-
Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche. So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this.
Okay, you seem to hate 'mainstream games' and 'mainstream gamers', from what I understand, the popular games.
What I don't understand is, how the hell is that damaging 'niche' or the more quirky games at all?
Think about it, those 'new mainstream gamers' might not buy a lot of quirky, niche titles, but even if 10% of them buy one of those games, isn't that more than if they were never even gaming at all? Think about it, those popular games like Halo, brought in new customers. The same hardcore gamers like you and me are still around buying games, AND we have potential new customers too.
The other thing is, you make it sound like 90% of games out today are FPS or have a space marine setting. Please name how many FPS Space Marine games came out last year compared to the other genres.
In the last 6 months or so my favourite games have been Batman: Arkham Asylum, Brutal Legend, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed 2, Darksiders and Mass Effect 2.
Out of those, NONE are FPS and only ONE is set in outer-space. They are all games of high quality and great art design and direction, with a lot of love behind them. From what I can see, the medium is still alive and well.
-
So because Virtua Fighter used to sell hundreds of thousands, and millions of copies, it is no longer card core?
-
My viewpoint needed to be made more accurate than I was stating it. It's not the popularity of the genres or the how well they sell that I'm concerned about rather the waves of mass audience gamers that have been brought in the last decade by the big mainstream genres. These genres like fps are bringing expanded audiences beyond the traditional game audiences of the past. I blame them, whether that is accurate or not is another argument, for lowering the art value of gaming as a whol
You're being silly , and getting caught up in this Tinted Rose glasses lark, of its wasn't has good as the Old days .
I'm sorry you couldn't get any more casual , anymore mainstream than SONIC on the Mega Drive , which SEGA used to full effect in the 16 bit days . You really think it was just so called HardCore gamers that bought SONIC ?.
I'm sorry but imo FPS's are this gens Platformers, when all is said and done . You go on about ART right ?. The Art used in Mirror's Edge is breathtaking , so is Half Life II/Ep 1& II , and FPS's with no Space Marines in sight too :roll:
Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche
What rubbish , A huge reason for that is SEGA Hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit days . If the Saturn were to have been a brilliant seller (to that for the MD) I've no doubt, Panzer Dragoon Saga would have sold over a 1 million copies
Neither you or TA really addressed the matter of the decline of Sega following with the rise of mainstream gaming and I really think that vindicates a lot of my view
Wake up , SEGA had the mainstream gaming market inthe 16 bit days , Yes those casual gamers you claim to hate, all loved Sonic & the likes of Aladdin (about as mainstream as one could get). SEGA lost all that, along with its good name ,3rd party development support , through hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit Battle .
You want mainstream gaming at its very hight , Try playing Sonic Vs Mario , Super Monkey Ball Step & Roll, Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing, Iorn Man . They're about as Mainstream as one could ever wish to get , and who makes or developers those games ?
-
I don't have time to reply to everything, right now.. I will go back and reply to points that are relevant, but you guys are missing this point that I already posted:
http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D (http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D) ... ream_Gamer
Mainstream Gamer
These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)
It's all right there. This person knows what he is talking about. The game market evolved a hell of a lot since the 16bit days and if you are going to ignore that critical factor there is no pointing talking about it. These new mainstream audiences had no interest in niche titles relegating them to a tiny sliver of the market.
Sonic mainstream appeal, duh.. dur.. no shit... It always did because it was a great title just like Mario, but the reality is that video game market in the 16bit era was a much narrower demographic (kids and geeks) then it became in the 32bit era and then in the PS2/Xbox era (male 6 to 40 and not just geeks). It's the demographic change to a wider mainstream audience (wider than the 16bit era one) that I'm blaming for the problem.
This is really obvious and anyone knowledgeable of history and evolution of the game market knows what I'm talking about. I was 20 years old during the 16bit era, maybe you guys were 10.. maybe even younger and can't appreciate the market change.
-
It's all right there. This person knows what he is talking about. The game market evolved a hell of a lot since the 16bit days and if you are going to ignore that critical factor there is no pointing talking about it. These new mainstream audiences had no interest in niche titles relegating them to a tiny sliver of the market.
Sonic mainstream appeal, duh.. dur.. no shit... It always did because it was a great title just like Mario, but the reality is that video game market in the 16bit era was a much narrower demographic (kids and geeks) then it became in the 32bit era and then in the PS2/Xbox era (male 6 to 40 and not just geeks). It's the demographic change to a wider mainstream audience (wider than the 16bit era one) that I'm blaming for the problem.
This is really obvious and anyone knowledgeable of history and evolution of the game market knows what I'm talking about. I was 20 years old during the 16bit era, maybe you guys were 10.. maybe even younger and can't appreciate the market change.
There's been Mainstream gamers since the very start , Who do you think were buying the Atari 2600 , The NES ? - Those were all Hardcore gamers ?, Not on your nelly.
The Mega Drive and Snes did'nt sell some 80 million consoles Combined , appealing to just the hardcore gamer , you only get those sort of sale and numbers, by getting the casuals onboard .
What change with the PS is that SEGA totally messed up , and NCL came in late , giving SONY a massive open goal , to which they used to their advantage , combine that with how easy it was to mod the PS (when sales really went through the roof) and SONY were laughing with the PS sales.
And let me tell it was grown men , not just kids and geeks, that were buying the likes of Destert Strike , John Madden and more so FIFA for their Mega Drive's Anyone that knows a little about SEGA or the Videogame industry , will known the vital role SEGA played in getting Adults into the gaming with the , Mega Drive , and making Consoles ‘cool’ to own . Its did that through games that appealed to them , and more so some fantastic promotion and advertising.
Oh and another thing the Mega Drive sold better than the machine noted for it's FPS's , Namely The X-Box . So how that fits in with the notion that Space Marine games killed the Hardcore gamer I do not . The PS2 was a pile of crap for FPS games . And you may not remember , but I do. SEGA pushing the like of Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D and Quake very very hard .
Couldn't save the Dreamcast or Saturn , but that's down to poor 3rd party support and PR , more than the lack of so called HardCore gamers .
-
You're being silly , and getting caught up in this Tinted Rose glasses lark, of its wasn't has good as the Old days .
No, that is such a tired overused internet cliche..
I'm sorry you couldn't get any more casual , anymore mainstream than SONIC on the Mega Drive , which SEGA used to full effect in the 16 bit days . You really think it was just so called HardCore gamers that bought SONIC ?.
I'm sorry you are too young, or whatever, to realize that mainstream gaming demographic widened dramatically from what it was in the 16bit days. That is the whole point of my argument you are not getting. Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today? If you do, you are totally wrong.
I'm sorry but imo FPS's are this gens Platformers, when all is said and done . You go on about ART right ?. The Art used in Mirror's Edge is breathtaking , so is Half Life II/Ep 1& II , and FPS's with no Space Marines in sight too :roll:
Friend, and how did ME sell? Like shit, right? We are getting close to my point.. I actually thought that ME had that old Sega vibe.. Blue skys.. (heh) innovative.. I said, "this is the kind of game old Sega might have published".
The whole difference between todays FPS and 16bit gens platformers players are a widening gaming demographic. The 16bit era one was narrower and more inclined to niche and cult art than the jocks, and joe and johnny avg nobody mainstreams playing fps today. Gaming in the 16bit era was still heavily under the geek and nerd stigmitization, ask yourself how much that still appliers today?
What rubbish , A huge reason for that is SEGA Hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit days . If the Saturn were to have been a brilliant seller (to that for the MD) I've no doubt, Panzer Dragoon Saga would have sold over a 1 million copies
It's not at all rubbish. Saturn and DC titles were much more to the niche side when the mainstream gaming audience was widening. If your going to fall back on the mismanagement thing exclusively then you are showing your age omitting the ever critical factor of market change.
Wake up , SEGA had the mainstream gaming market inthe 16 bit days , Yes those casual gamers you claim to hate, all loved Sonic & the likes of Aladdin (about as mainstream as one could get). SEGA lost all that, along with its good name ,3rd party development support , through hopeless mismanagement of the 32 bit Battle .
TA, you exposing your flaw in your argument. The mainstream gaming market of the 16bit days is totally different than the one of today. Until you get that, you won't make the connection I'm trying to get you to see. You are totally, totally ignoring market evolution and that is totally wrong.
According to you, the gaming market (demographics) did not change from the 16bit era to today and that is totally wrong. And I'm not talking about girl gamers and non-gaming retards. I'm talking the male demographic.
You want mainstream gaming at its very hight , Try playing Sonic Vs Mario , Super Monkey Ball Step & Roll, Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing, Iorn Man . They're about as Mainstream as one could ever wish to get , and who makes or developers those games ?
I don't see your point.. Yeah, Sega makes that. That is actually my point.. they have to move to where the market is.. Sonic is relegated to crap today, because today it is only a kiddy brand where as in the 16bit era the geeks and nerds were his hardcore fans. How did Bayonetta do and how is Yakuza going to do in the west? The core of gaming is less hardcore than in the past and more wide audience mainstream.. Sega had to adjust or die.
MM, I'm getting to your's...
-
Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today?
To a large part yes , There's be more gamers , and older one at that , but that's only natural .
Friend, and how did ME sell? Like shit, right? We are getting close to my point.. I actually thought that ME had that old Sega vibe.. Blue sky
I can list loads of FPS that have sold poor , not all games will make it , that's not a refection of the game , or the game market , just what always happens .
The 16bit era one was narrower and more inclined to niche and cult art than the jocks, and joe and johnny avg nobody mainstreams playing fps today
Johnny Maintream was alive and well in the Mega Drive days . The huge difference is the cost , development time , team size needed to make games . That's what killed a lot of games developers as soon as we went 3D with the Saturn and PS .
That's the killer , these days the cost of Games development . In the 16 BIT and 8 Bit days , with tiny team sizes , short development time , you didn't need to sell millions , that is not the case anymore .
Saturn and DC titles were much more to the niche side when the mainstream gaming audience was widening
What was niche about the 3D Fighters and RPG's SEGA made for the Saturn and DC ?, what was niche about the likes of Sonic Adv , SEGA GT, SEGA RALLY, Decathlete, Quake , Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D, NFL 2k2, Giant Gram .
I'm telling you if Saturn was to have sold as well as the Mega Drive did for SEGA, I've no doubt Saga would have been a million seller , and you for one , wouldn;t have been complaining
SEGA was trying so hard to get the casuals with the DC, it even dumped down the bloody DC pad , to 4 face buttons .
Yeah, Sega makes that. That is actually my point.. they have to move to where the market is.. Sonic is relegated to crap today, because today it is only a kiddy brand where as in the 16bit era the geeks and nerds were his hardcore fans
SEGA have always tried to cash-in on games that sell well in the Market place , The likes of Sonic Shuffle, SEGA GT, Streets of Rage, Space Channel 5 are prime example of that . And Sonic get a bad press, becasue his games have been poor , or shameless cash -ins , to which only SEGA is to blame, nothing to do with a lack of Nerds , Sonic was always meant to appeal to kids, that's why he's lovely cute animal/mammal :roll: .
How did Bayonetta do and how is Yakuza going to do in the west?
Bayonetta is selling well isn't it ? As for Yakuza that is like asking how well does Madden, or Oblivion sell in Japan . Yakuza is 100 %made for the Japanese Audience and tastes . Hasn't Demon Souls sold very well inthe USA ?, now there's a game that some might call HardCore , how well has the like of Ninja Gaiden II, DMC IV sold , millions of copies right ??? .
Not a space Marine in sight , and game very much in the Bayonetta Mould
-
Do you think the mainstream gaming demographic of the 16bit era is the same as the one of the 32bit era? 64bit era? Today?
To a large part yes , There's be more gamers , and older one at that , but that's only natural .
Well, that is the whole crux of the disagreement..
posting this again:
http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D (http://www.sestren.org/wiki/index.php/D) ... ream_Gamer
Mainstream Gamer
These gamers came in during the biggest boom in gaming. Where gaming became widely accepted by the masses, with Playstation becoming a household name. This era saw SEGA's last great hurrah with the Dreamcast, and Microsoft's entrance to the business with the XBox. (Notice this era, mainstream, saw the last great hurrah of Sega)
Note how this describes the PS1 era as the era of the mainstream gamer where gaming "became widely accepted by the masses". That's reality, maybe it was less evident in Europe than it was in the USA..
The male gaming demographic widened in every era after the 16bit gen, firstly getting older and more mainstream with PS1, and then way more mainstream and a broader age demographic with PS2/Xbox and now.
We are arguing about a matter of degree. Was there mainstream gaming in the 16bit era, yes? To the same degree in the 32bit and 64, no.. it was much larger.
Gaming in the 80's and early/mid 90's was largely in the realm of kids and geek and nerd subculture. It gradually became more mainstream..
Were jocks, (quarterbacks and wrestlers, not the geeky sports) playing Sonic 1, 2, 3 in the 90's? For the most part no.
Are they playing fps and other male domination fantasies now? Yes, along with a much wider male gaming demographic.
Johnny Maintream was alive and well in the Mega Drive days . The huge difference is the cost , development time , team size needed to make games . That's what killed a lot of games developers as soon as we went 3D with the Saturn and PS .
That's the killer , these days the cost of Games development . In the 16 BIT and 8 Bit days , with tiny team sizes , short development time , you didn't need to sell millions , that is not the case anymore .
I do not deny those variable.. they actually fit with my point, games need to sell millions now to recover cost, and thus you better target a wide audience with them.. and thus you can kiss goodbye to niche and art content, lower the bar for mass appeal.
What was niche about the 3D Fighters and RPG's SEGA made for the Saturn and DC ?, what was niche about the likes of Sonic Adv , SEGA GT, SEGA RALLY, Decathlete, Quake , Quake III, Duke Nukem 3D, NFL 2k2, Giant Gram .
I'm telling you if Saturn was to have sold as well as the Mega Drive did for SEGA, I've no doubt Saga would have been a million seller , and you for one , wouldn;t have been complaining
SEGA was trying so hard to get the casuals with the DC, it even dumped down the bloody DC pad , to 4 face buttons .
Seaman was for normal people? Why be selective?
The mainstream audiences were playing the more mainstream genres on the PS1.. The main differentiating point between Sega and PS1 was thus the niche content, other than something big like VF and Sonic of which only VF was being well represented. So, Sega got identified as niche and PS1 the new mainstream.
DC's line up was too niche.. I'm not saying anything off the wall by saying that.. When Peter Moore was interviewed for DC's 10th he was asked about that, "was the line up too niche when the market was going mainstream.. GTA, Halo, Tony Hawk, DVD player, etc?"
Bayonetta is selling well isn't it ? As for Yakuza that is like asking how well does Madden, or Oblivion sell in Japan . Yakuza is 100 %made for the Japanese Audience and tastes . Hasn't Demon Souls sold very well inthe USA ?, now there's a game that some might call HardCore , how well has the like of Ninja Gaiden II, DMC IV sold , millions of copies right ??? .
Not a space Marine in sight , and game very much in the Bayonetta Mould
My point is that the gaming demographic has changed significantly since the 16bit era becoming wider and more mass audience with each successive era. This is true, it is in the realm of fact. To say it is "to a large part" the same is dismissive. That is the whole crux of my argument.. As gaming became more mass audience (which it did) gaming content changed to reflect that, much to my dislike.
-
Speaking of Panzer Dragoon and Jet Set Radio, I would love to see those as well, (titles like these are the high point of game art) but why are we not getting them then? Because they are too niche. So, thank you again to mainstream gaming for denying us this.
Okay, you seem to hate 'mainstream games' and 'mainstream gamers', from what I understand, the popular games.
What I don't understand is, how the hell is that damaging 'niche' or the more quirky games at all?
Think about it, those 'new mainstream gamers' might not buy a lot of quirky, niche titles, but even if 10% of them buy one of those games, isn't that more than if they were never even gaming at all? Think about it, those popular games like Halo, brought in new customers. The same hardcore gamers like you and me are still around buying games, AND we have potential new customers too.
Well, as gaming audiences became more mainstream (which they did) gaming content changed to reflect that, thus relegating the more "gamer's game" stuff to a niche. It's not that it "damages the niche", but relegated it to being niche in the first place.
When you popularize mainstream gaming, hardcore gaming loses. When you popularize casual gaming then hardcore gaming loses yet even more to another degree.
The problem we might have is the definition of a hardcore gamer, which is why I included those definitions in the earlier response.
People think Halo and fps are hardcore games, but they are not.. they core mainstream games. They might be "hardcore" from a casual perspective, but not from an old school hardcore perspective.
The other thing is, you make it sound like 90% of games out today are FPS or have a space marine setting. Please name how many FPS Space Marine games came out last year compared to the other genres.
In the last 6 months or so my favourite games have been Batman: Arkham Asylum, Brutal Legend, Bayonetta, Assassin's Creed 2, Darksiders and Mass Effect 2.
Out of those, NONE are FPS and only ONE is set in outer-space. They are all games of high quality and great art design and direction, with a lot of love behind them. From what I can see, the medium is still alive and well.
Yes, but my real issue is not with the space marine games but the mass audience gamers.
I enjoyed Batman: AA.. It is high quality, there just wasn't anything niche, cult or hardcore about it.. Not saying that is bad, just that it is a "mainstream game".
The medium is still alive, though soul less and creatively stagnant. It's all "fun" from a pointless recreation activity, but gone are the mind-blowing, far out, and memorable games for the most part.
-
TA,
here you go...
http://www.destructoid.com/sony-we-brok ... 6032.phtml (http://www.destructoid.com/sony-we-broke-the-mainstream-barrier-not-nintendo-146032.phtml)
Sony: We broke the mainstream barrier, not Nintendo
"The most successful console is still the PS2 and it's still going strong," claims Hirai, comparing a console released nine years ago to a console released three years ago. "I think that's the console that really broke the barrier from videogames being just for videogamers into more of a mass market on a global basis. Nintendo's obviously done a great job in following that mass acceptance."
You make me feel like I'm talking crazy, but I'm not.. as far as the mainstream-ization of gaming, there was a real specific and discernible point when that happened.
Even Hirai, makes the distinction between "video games for video gamers" and the "mass acceptance" by the "mass market".
This coincided with the decline of Sega... which was, more left of center and more niche as far as mainstream goes..
This is the whole crux of my point.
1)Mass audiences did enter gaming to a much greater degree than 16bit gen.
2)Catering to these mass audiences lowered the art of gaming.. more cliche, more pop culture, commodisized gaming, brown, brown.. space marine, sonic =kids only, marketers design games, etc..
Here is another...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6217053.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6217053.html)
Peter Moore talks Dreamcast 10 years later
GS: Some of the Dreamcast's best-loved and most memorable games--Shenmue, Jet Grind Radio, Skies of Arcadia, Seaman, Crazy Taxi--were original intellectual properties. Was there too much of an emphasis on these original and unproven franchises?
PM: We really didn't--maybe with the exception of Sonic Adventure--have that game that was aimed at a broad mass market that could really be the "killer app" to drive the hardware.[/color]
DC was too niche when the market was going way mainstream thanks to Sony.
-
Gaming in the 80's and early/mid 90's was largely in the realm of kids and geek and nerd subculture. It gradually became more mainstream
The gaming Market is still very young , and in the late 70's and 80's just started to find it's feet . I know lot's of Adults that bought the like of the Amiga , ST, ZX Spectrum , Mega Drive . Not just Nerds or Kids, but people starting to turn to Videogames, with world of Mouth and mates showing off system ECT .
Were jocks, (quarterbacks and wrestlers, not the geeky sports) playing Sonic 1, 2, 3 in the 90's? For the most part no.
Are they playing fps and other male domination fantasies now
SONIC would never be able to sell 44 million + , with out the help of the casuals. You're over playing the impact and sales of FPS's .
and thus you can kiss goodbye to niche and art content, lower the bar for mass appeal.
Same for the Film Industry , same for the Music Industry , its just the way of the world , and Video games is no exception . That is hardly the fault of FPS's or the SONY/MS gamer .
Seaman was for normal people? Why be selective
We can all play that game ,what's main stream about the like of Deathsmiles,
Espgaluda II, ??? . In fact you'll never admit it , or indeed like it
But the systems with the most Niche games is the PS2 , but carry on thinking it's the DC
When Peter Moore was interviewed for DC's 10th he was asked about that, "was the line up too niche when the market was going mainstream.. GTA, Halo, Tony Hawk, DVD player, etc?"
Really ?, That's clever when the DC had GTA II and Tony Hawks II on the system early in , HALO didn't come out until after SEGA killed off the DC (overlooking how hard SEGA pushed Quake III a FPS) DVD had a Huge Impact in Japan for the PS2, but in the West ?.
I think in the end it was the Lack of Funds, lack of Mainstream 3rd party support , lack of people buying Software , that killed the DC, not the mainstream gamer
My point is that the gaming demographic has changed significantly since the 16bit era becoming wider and more mass audience with each successive era
So , I don't see how you can blame FPS for that . The main people that buy and play games are gamers , the same breed , than were the gamer in 80's, 90's , Just with new and different tastes . I see no difference with how the home Market for Films have grown over the years
The people that loved their VHS films in the 80's , aren't much different from the Film buff of today , that loves their DVD's . Just tastes have change ( i grew up with the 80's love of Gore), sales have gone up , and with the High Cost of films there's less and less Risk taking .
But at the end of the day , people that loved watching fllms in home in the 80's , aren't much different to people watching films today , same for gamers .
And there is nothing hardcore or Niche in Yakuza anymore , its about as Mainstream as one can get ,. Yearly updates , Reliant on an all star Voice cast , very little innovation with each new game , a sequel by the numbers if every there was one, just like Fifa
-
So when does Joe jump in?
-
Yeah, this is just getting silly.
East, you complain that there are new gamers and seem to be upset that popular games are popular.
Thing is, and what you didn't account for is, the 'niche' or 'true hardcore' or whatever bullshit term you want to use for 'games I like that aren't popular' (because, seriously man, you have no actual guidelines for it. You just randomly assign games as 'hardcore' or 'mainstream' with no rhyme or reason) used to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Now that games are more popular, they are a in a much bigger pond, but the fish is the same size. It's not like all the gamers up and left.
-
I think Eastside is afraid of jocks, as he keeps mentioning them.
Seriously though, I like how he ignored my comments. I think the most casual game I ever saw in my life was Crazy Taxi, and everyone loves that game. Does this mean it is lacking on art or some bullshit? Of course not, everyone loves it because it is awesome fun and hilarious.
I do not know what a "Gamer's Game" is classified as when you throw out stuff like Halo and World of Warcraft out. You do realize people have literally died from playing those games for like weeks nonstop, right? If those are not true gamers, I do not know what is. I doubt anyone ever died from speedrunning Yakuza.
-
I think the most casual game I ever saw in my life was Crazy Taxi, and everyone loves that game
It was FF 7 for me (well bar Sonic & Mario) , that might explain why FF 7 is one the most returned games in History . Still Japanese RPG's are hardcore, aren't they :roll:
Thing is, and what you didn't account for is, the 'niche' or 'true hardcore' or whatever bullshit term you want to use for 'games I like that aren't popular' (because, seriously man, you have no actual guidelines for it. You just randomly assign games as 'hardcore' or 'mainstream' with no rhyme or reason) used to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Now that games are more popular, they are a in a much bigger pond, but the fish is the same size. It's not like all the gamers up and left
Nice post . I still don't know what makes someone a Hardcore gamer , and would love to know what is the Most HardCore game of all time . In the end game are games, and there some that are better than other, or sell better than others
Still that's another topic, and getting back on Topic
Not long to go for the game or the demo to come out . It be nice to see if there's any genuine improvement in the game .The lovely lSE DX pack , looks very nice , with its great Hip Flask :)
-
Thing is, and what you didn't account for is, the 'niche' or 'true hardcore' or whatever bullshit term you want to use for 'games I like that aren't popular' (because, seriously man, you have no actual guidelines for it. You just randomly assign games as 'hardcore' or 'mainstream' with no rhyme or reason) used to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Now that games are more popular, they are a in a much bigger pond, but the fish is the same size. It's not like all the gamers up and left.
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p3.html (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p3.html)
GameSpy: In the future, what do you think will happen to the hardcore demographic?
Zeschuk: The hardcore gamer demographic will continue to grow as the industry grows; however, it might shrink proportionally against the wider swath of more casual gamers that are joining the market with the increasingly mainstream targeting of the new console systems.
The founder of bioware seems to have no problem making distinctions between the three major market segments; hardcore, casual and mainstream. Maybe you and TA know more about the business of gaming than he does?
"The increasingly mainstream targeting of new consoles" Looks like that is a real phenomenon? The implications that extend from that is what I keep saying."
TA, how do you respond to a quote like this:
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.off (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.off)
The Dreamcast was arguably the first casualty of a major shift in the gaming industry, one with even greater scope than the '90s-era transition from bitmaps to polygons. When the Dreamcast died, so too did the concept of videogames as the exclusive province of the hardcore.[/u]
According to you there was no shift in the gaming demographics.. so what is this 'transition' being spoken of?
"The most successful console is still the PS2 and it's still going strong," claims Hirai, comparing a console released nine years ago to a console released three years ago. "I think that's the console that really broke the barrier from videogames being just for videogamers into more of a mass market on a global basis. Nintendo's obviously done a great job in following that mass acceptance."
Kaz saying the same thing...
When the Dreamcast died, so too did the concept of videogames as the exclusive province of the hardcore.
Care to respond to that?
Same for the Film Industry , same for the Music Industry , its just the way of the world , and Video games is no exception . That is hardly the fault of FPS's or the SONY/MS gamer.
So , I don't see how you can blame FPS for that . The main people that buy and play games are gamers , the same breed , than were the gamer in 80's, 90's , Just with new and different tastes . I see no difference with how the home Market for Films have grown over the y
I'm not blaming FPS, though.. FPS is a consequence of a shift in demographics, brought on by Sony and later MS. I don't necessarily blame Sony and MS, though.. that shift was inevitable, like you agree.
The point I'm contending is that there was a real shift and transition in the gaming market that occurred basically beginning last decade. Frankly, I find that undeniable. It's a fact.
And with that a decline of the old Sega..
TA, take a look at this, too..
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/18-awesome- ... 237088/p-4 (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/18-awesome-games-that-died-at-retail/a-2009102195749237088/p-4)
Why it tanked anyway: While it’s tempting at this point to just throw up our hands at this point and declare Sega’s early-2000s efforts to have been cursed, Orta’s failure at the market was really down to two things: by 2003, Sega fans – the vast majority of Panzer Dragoon’s fanbase – had become a niche unto themselves, and relatively few of them followed Sega onto the Xbox. As for mainstream gamers coming at Orta fresh, it seems the brand was a little too weird, the ultra-linear action a little too confining and the run-time a little too short for the game to really catch on or be seen as worth full price at retail.
Notice how it refers to "Sega fans", the old ones, as a "niche unto themselves" and then makes a distinction between them and the "mainstreams"?
That's why I said earlier, you can thank mainstream gaming for not having awesome games like Panzer Dragoon. Why you call yourself Team Andromeda and apologize for mainstream gaming is an interesting contradiction?
-
When the Dreamcast died, so too did the concept of videogames as the exclusive province of the hardcore.
I'll Respond by saying there is nothing hardcore about the DC, its only seems niche simply because it didn’t sell well. And what makes a game or console Hardcore , I'll love to know that
FPS is a consequence of a shift in demographics, brought on by Sony and later MS. I don't necessarily blame Sony and MS, though.. that shift was inevitable, like you agree.
The point I'm contending is that there was a real shift and transition in the gaming market that occurred basically beginning last decade. Frankly, I find that undeniable. It's a fact.
FPS weren't brought in by SONY or MS, infact the PS2 is pretty poor system for FPS, the PS not much better . The N64 was the console to own, if you loved FPS's back into those days .
Its not like SEGA didn't push FPS it's self , Duke Nukem 3D and Quake were brilliant on the Saturn , so was Exhumed (all pushed by SEGA) and SEGA pushed Quake III on the DC really hard , and were milking Half-Life hype for all it was worth on the DC, before the game was dropped .
I put it to you , that a large part of why FPS become popular was also thanks to the introduction of the dual Sticks , and the fact that with consoles like the X-Box and N64 , Consoles at long last had the power and memory to handle the genre far better