SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Happy Cat on April 22, 2010, 04:15:24 pm
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Sega was hit today by 73 layoffs as part of a business reorganization that will see the company focusing more on social and digital games.
According to a statement received by 1UP, 36 employees in Sega's San Francisco office and 37 in London have been made redundant as part of the reorganization. The San Francisco office will now focus exclusively on digital and downloadable content (as the newly formed "Digital Division") while London will act as the company's administrative hub, as well as handle traditional console and PC games.
"In recent years, digital platforms have taken an increasing share of video gaming revenues and we believe this growth is set to continue," said the statement. "Sega has already enjoyed commercial success within this new and exciting gaming medium and it is now the company's intention to fully embrace change and set a strategy not only to maximize revenues within the digital space but, through innovation and quality, take up a leadership position."
Speaking to 1UP, Sega West president Mike Hayes described the move as "chapter two" in the company's continued evolution after being a hardware manufacturer.
"It's quite interesting, if you look at Sega's relatively short modern history when we reinvented ourselves as a multi-platform publisher, the excitement for us was being on the PlayStation 2 and Gamecube and Xbox, and we sort of travelled a path where our market share has increased significantly over the past five years in both North America and in the European territories," said Hayes.
"[The new focus on digital media] is part of our ongoing expansion, which is great. We have a very strong base now in the traditional business. We still want to grow, we still want to be very competitive, but in terms of development and growing our overall market share, part of that sort of journey for Sega, sort of like chapter two, is this big digital arena," he continued. "It's new, it provides new outlets for us. We can do different things in terms of gaming experiences, which is interesting for us. So in a way it's sort of a part of the ongoing rebirth of Sega as a multi-platform agnostic publisher of games."
According to Hayes, the layoffs were mainly caused by Sega's U.S. and London offices having different employees fulfilling the same tasks - now that both divisions have been further consolidated, according to Hayes, some of these employees are no longer necessary to the company.
"There was a lot of duality, there was a lot of doing the same work twice," said hayes.
"There was a lot of copying between both San Francisco and London. So it's kind of a natural question of how do we become more efficient and affective as an operation, and that's what the exercise has been."
According to Hayes, the move will not impact Sega's current schedule, nor will it affect the number of traditional retail games it releases. 1UP had a chance to speak with Hayes about the company's new direction, as well as the future of its traditional console games, and will publish the full interview tomorrow.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3178956 (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3178956)
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This is really bad news, even if a certain someone is part of the layoff.
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I do not like that anyone will lose their job, so I hope that all of the people who lost theirs can get back on their feet right away.
Still, the digital distribution thing is a major plus to me. I have been wanting SEGA to do this for like... Four years. I think it suits their design structure much better. They are an arcade developer above all else remember.
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I'm a bit concerned over the whole casual thing, does this mean they are also getting into the Farmville-type market?
Who knew ventures such as Play Sega were so profitable?
And yes, when a company reestructures(mergers, for example) it almost always means someone will get a pink slip. Sad, but true. I also hope they get back on their feet.
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Okay, 9 years for "chapter 2". . . Just skip to where it says in the marketing plan: "Streets of Rage IV - Digital Release"
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Okay, 9 years for "chapter 2". . . Just skip to where it says in the marketing plan: "Streets of Rage IV - Digital Release"
If it's anything like Sonic 4, I would rather they skipped that part as well. Better yet, just tear the page out.
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Nice to see they tore out the page that said "Licensed crap and crappy remakes from shitty studios" and used it as toilet paper.
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While folks losing their jobs always sucks, I actually am in favor of this change. As the article mentioned:
"the move will not impact Sega's current schedule, nor will it affect the number of traditional retail games it releases"
That;s a good thing, right? Take a look at SoA's first party offerings. What has SoA given us in the past five years in terms of retail releases?
As for SoE, I'm glad that they'll be managing all the administrative work. Better to have one location deal with that than have (from what it sounded like) the same job being done in the US.
Notice that Sega of Japan has not been changed, and will continue to give us games as usual.
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even if a certain someone is part of the layoff.
Who are you referring to?
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While folks losing their jobs always sucks, I actually am in favor of this change. As the article mentioned:
"the move will not impact Sega's current schedule, nor will it affect the number of traditional retail games it releases"
That;s a good thing, right? Take a look at SoA's first party offerings. What has SoA given us in the past five years in terms of retail releases?
As for SoE, I'm glad that they'll be managing all the administrative work. Better to have one location deal with that than have (from what it sounded like) the same job being done in the US.
Notice that Sega of Japan has not been changed, and will continue to give us games as usual.
SEGA West =/= SEGA Japan
SEGA Japan has been shutting stuff done for a couple of years now, if I recall correctly.
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Great news, guys! RubyEclipse wasn't laid off!
Yay! ^___^
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Great news, guys! RubyEclipse wasn't laid off!
Yay! ^___^
That's great to hear.
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That's good news indeed.
I do agree with Barrington that this is overall a good move for them. If it doesn't affect their retail games then more Downloadable stuff is always good. Even if it's just more classics being ported to XBLA/PSN or something I would be happy with that. I don't know much about Play Sega, but if they enhance that service and build it up it would also be pretty good.
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Don't forget Ipod/phone/pad. Sega needs to continue to build its presence their too.
Ipod/phone/pad and PSN and XLA revenue maximization should be one of the top corporate strategic priorities.
I bought AC today and I'm buying Sonic 4 no matter what. Now give us the damn digital multiplayer games already!
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Arcade ports for the last 10 years should be a priority for Sega of America. Remember how many arcade games hit the Saturn and Dreamcast? It seems that so many games have been relegated to arcades. Don't get me wrong, I love arcades and prefer most arcade versions to console ports. However, most Sega arcade games are nowhere near where I live and/or died years ago.
Each year I'd prefer a handful of AAA retail titles (mostly probably coming for SoJ and third parties like Sumo, Platinum, Rebellion and Obsidian), a few fun but not amazing retail titles and a load of downloadable classics in HD.
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I wish they would have spoken more indetail about what this new digital group will actually do... I hope it includes porting games to XBLA and PSN but it might just be PlaySega and mobile phone focused for all we know.
What they really should do it make a couple games for Facebook... Would like to see a game a bit like Dragon Force or a little know game called 'Pocket Kingdom' that released for NGAGE which was an MMO version of Dragon Force.. I think something like that would go down very well on Facebook along side the fluff for girls like Farmville.
Or maybe they could do a Social Networking site like Facebook but market it to gamers... Where it might list your games, what your playing have a bunch of mini games etc.
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Prior to this change, what had SoA brought us? They basically gave us crappy games from Secret Level and localized SoJ games, correct?
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correct.
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So I assume Sega Europe will now have the task of talking and making deals with potential developers both from this continent and abroad?
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Would like to see a game a bit like Dragon Force or a little know game called 'Pocket Kingdom' that released for NGAGE which was an MMO version of Dragon Force..t I hink something like that would go down very well on Facebook along side the fluff for girls like Farmville.
No, swords and sorcery is way too nerdy for the Facebook set.
There might be an audience, but not the huge mass audience that the makers of those games are looking for.
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Would like to see a game a bit like Dragon Force or a little know game called 'Pocket Kingdom' that released for NGAGE which was an MMO version of Dragon Force..t I hink something like that would go down very well on Facebook along side the fluff for girls like Farmville.
No, swords and sorcery is way too nerdy for the Facebook set.
There might be an audience, but not the huge mass audience that the makers of those games are looking for.
There has to be an audience if games like World of Warcraft are so popular, even on Facebook. I do not think you realize just how big and varied the site is.
Anyways, making games for Facebook is an interesting idea I never thought of, but I really really cannot see SEGA giving them obscure games like Pocket Kingdom. If they were to do anything I think they would use or at least release similar products as to what they have on PlaySEGA.
I was assuming this meant more XBLA releases and the like, but the more the people mention it I am thinking this will just be more mobile and PlaySEGA related crap.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Arcade ports for the last 10 years should be a priority for Sega of America. Remember how many arcade games hit the Saturn and Dreamcast? It seems that so many games have been relegated to arcades. Don't get me wrong, I love arcades and prefer most arcade versions to console ports. However, most Sega arcade games are nowhere near where I live and/or died years ago.
SEGA is sitting on a literal treasure trove of arcade titles that never had home releases spanning across 30+ years. I think to pinpoint the last ten years would be ignorant in this case.
Two of my biggest wants on XBLA from them are Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death=Adder and the PlayStation 2 conversion of NiGHTS into Dreams. Could you imagine the awesome four player action we could have in RODA HD or the countless hours we would all spend trying to best eachothers high scores in NiGHTS HD??
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I'm not sure that the WoW crowd are going to waste their time on Facebook games. They'll just keep playing WoW or find a different fully fledged fantasy MMO to play.
But who knows. The only audience for that sort of thing that I can think of would be gamers under the age of 18 whose parents won't buy them MMO subscriptions... and even then they'd be searching for something better.
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I'm not sure that the WoW crowd are going to waste their time on Facebook games. They'll just keep playing WoW or find a different fully fledged fantasy MMO to play.
But who knows. The only audience for that sort of thing that I can think of would be gamers under the age of 18 whose parents won't buy them MMO subscriptions... and even then they'd be searching for something better.
There are millions of people that play rune scape... and there are a ton of better MMOs out there, better free ones too.
Not to mention Dragon Force games are very fun and add a bit of strategy too.
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While people getting layed off always sucks, I am in favor of SEGA making more downloadable games.
Now port Chu Chu Rocket to XBLA/PSN.
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There are millions of people that play rune scape... and there are a ton of better MMOs out there, better free ones too.
Not to mention Dragon Force games are very fun and add a bit of strategy too.
Well, if you wanna think positive, then be my guest. I'm going to remain skeptical of such an idea. =P
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While people getting layed off always sucks, I am in favor of SEGA making more downloadable games.
Now port Chu Chu Rocket to XBLA/PSN.
Someone listen to this man!
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While people getting layed off always sucks, I am in favor of SEGA making more downloadable games.
Now port Chu Chu Rocket to XBLA/PSN.
One massive Huge problem . ChuChu Rocket is SOJ and Sonic Team Japan IP, and that means unless SOJ say its ok , SEGA American can ask all they want , because they'll not have a hope , and that goes for all SEGA Japan IP .
This is just some bullcr8p PR to try and cover the fact , that SEGA consumer lines are still losing money, and it needs to cut costs , almost all 3rd parties are jumping on the digital bangwagon , they're not laying off staff . I'm all for more classic ports , more classic downloads , collections , hell I been wanting that since the DC, but that needs SEGA Japan support, the likes of Sonic Team to approve (not always easy) , and then the approval of the likes of MS and SONY .
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While people getting layed off always sucks, I am in favor of SEGA making more downloadable games.
Now port Chu Chu Rocket to XBLA/PSN.
One massive Huge problem . ChuChu Rocket is SOJ and Sonic Team Japan IP, and that means unless SOJ say its ok , SEGA American can ask all they want , because they'll not have a hope , and that goes for all SEGA Japan IP .
If they can get it on PlaySEGA and the SUMO crossover games, I doubt it is much work to port the Dreamcast release up.
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Have people here played with the Model 2 emulator? I was running Daytona in 1200 resolution and it looks pretty good. A port of Sega Racing Classic with online multiplayer would be on the top of my Sega digital release list.
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If they can get it on PlaySEGA and the SUMO crossover games, I doubt it is much work to port the Dreamcast release up.
You'll be surprised with the Sonic Team , not that I knew Chu Chu Rocket was on PlaySega .
So its all very well SOA setting up a new Divsions to handle downloads , Unless SEGA Japan and its Teams give concent and full accesses to the codes/games ,It's all a bit meaningless.
Because in my view , SEGA Japan back catalogue of Arcade and console classics is 2nd to none
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1UP: How exactly is Sega defining digital platforms for its new Digital division?
Mike Hayes: It's a good question, because it's such a broad space. Digital for us is kind of really all the checkboxes you'd get. For us it's certainly all mobile devices - iPhone, iPad, the interesting new devices we're seeing from other players, for example Microsoft. It includes games for XBLA, for PSN, for Virtual Console. It also then goes beyond to cover distribution methods like on PC, and then it's also going to encompass everything to do with social gaming and casual gaming. So it's a broad spectrum, but it's kind of everything that isn't physically going to be shipped in a box of some sort. So naturally there are huge gray areas between what is digital and what is boxed because, but it's broadly that definition which we're encompassing into the new Digital group.
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The whole Sega restructuring deal has been underplayed here: studio shutdown, 73 staff let go, Gameworks liquidated (a lot of staff with that), move to digital, European management, etc. Kind of makes you wonder if the company is not in more financial peril than it seems.
On another level I think it is awesome they are getting rid of all this overhead and making the company leaner and meaner.
I have a lot arcade nostalgia, but reality is that they are long dead in America. Digital is where it is at and hopefully it will make Sega strong again.
Digital space = new arcades.
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I've listened to the IW podcast this week and it kinda confirms all that, but in less detail. Again, added dramatic empashis on the death of Sega in North America.
Considering that PR and marketing was the core of the layoffs (http://http://www.tssznews.com/2010/04/23/report-sega-layoffs-centered-on-development-marketing-teams/), it's Sega's way of admitting that their marketing efforts in North America were not up to snuff.
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I don't think this means Sega are in more financial peril than it seems, infact I think they are finally pulling a profit this year.
This is Mike Hayes fixing Simon Jeffreys mess, Before SoE and SoA were doing the exact same thing... same buisness model the only difference is that SoE was doing it well and SoA was making poor buisness choices, wasting money and cancelling projects.
Take Alpha Protocol, vastly over budget, delayed to hell and back and BOUND to flop.
I think Hayes is doing what should have been done years ago.
Not to mention Digital games and digital distribution is the future... Having a whole team ready for that it a good way to be a leader in that part of the industry.
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I don't think this means Sega are in more financial peril than it seems, infact I think they are finally pulling a profit this year.
This is Mike Hayes fixing Simon Jeffreys mess, Before SoE and SoA were doing the exact same thing... same buisness model the only difference is that SoE was doing it well and SoA was making poor buisness choices, wasting money and cancelling projects.
Take Alpha Protocol, vastly over budget, delayed to hell and back and BOUND to flop.
I think Hayes is doing what should have been done years ago.
Not to mention Digital games and digital distribution is the future... Having a whole team ready for that it a good way to be a leader in that part of the industry.
Agreed! It's a real shame that all the big time gaming blogs are spinning this as a "Sega is in the shit" story. I see it as a huge positive FIXING what shit Sega was in. The dozens of comments I've seen on other sites regarding this story are just nonsense. "Sega is f-ing up again!", "RIP SEGA", "they haven't had a good game in years", etc.
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Smart fans will note Sega stock is up 10% for the month of april:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SGAMY.P ... Chart&t=3m (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SGAMY.PK+Basic+Chart&t=3m)
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Here's the IW episode I'm talking about...
http://http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-105-invisible-walls/65171
The fun begins at the 12 minute mark.
An interesting week for Sega no doubt, except they forget to mention Sega Sammy's fiscal year, I'm surprised how their profitable fiscal year has been downplayed in general.
They still make some valid points, though.
Update: Did I mentioned that the guy playing Sonic 1 in that video makes me nervous? What a terrible player.
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Here's the IW episode I'm talking about...
http://http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-105-invisible-walls/65171
The fun begins at the 12 minute mark.
An interesting week for Sega no doubt, except they forget to mention Sega Sammy's fiscal year, I'm surprised how their profitable fiscal year has been downplayed in general.
They still make some valid points, though.
Update: Did I mentioned that the guy playing Sonic 1 in that video makes me nervous? What a terrible player.
I made a couple of replies to this video... I was so angry I bolded them... Needless to say last I checked I was getting abunch of thumbs down for saying good things about Sega.
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So, how many people are actually employed at the San Francisco office now?
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I don't think this means Sega are in more financial peril than it seems, infact I think they are finally pulling a profit this year.
This is Mike Hayes fixing Simon Jeffreys mess, Before SoE and SoA were doing the exact same thing... same buisness model the only difference is that SoE was doing it well and SoA was making poor buisness choices, wasting money and cancelling projects.
Take Alpha Protocol, vastly over budget, delayed to hell and back and BOUND to flop.
I think Hayes is doing what should have been done years ago.
Not to mention Digital games and digital distribution is the future... Having a whole team ready for that it a good way to be a leader in that part of the industry.
Not quite Sharky , and SEGA of Japan has had plenty of its own Big Budget flops , and games that have been vastly delayed , and wasting money on games that will never make it out . SEGA sank more in to Shenmue Online , than Alpha for starters , PSU was meant to be SEGA own Final Fantasy game , and had a Budget and Team size to match it , yet that flopped , Nagoshi ww game has been in development for 3 years , and still nothing seen of it
The whole of SEGA is in a mess, no clear direction , and not many good games being made In-House . And this digital thing is a smoke screen, to cover up the facts that SEGA needs to slash costs for its Consumer Arms . No point in setting up a Digital Arm , when its SEGA Japan and its In-House Teams that hold the IP right and will have the say so, on what goes up . Lets face it , we all want to play SEGA old DC , Saturn and Arcade games online , not that much that came form SOA or SOE really .
The profits you talk of , aren't coming from the Consumer sides , and not much is coming from the Arcade side . Its clear to anyone that looks at them , most is coming from the SAMMY side
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TA, please learn to use commas and full stops properly. There is NOT meant to be a space before them, and you use them far too often.
Sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest.
As for what you were saying, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. They do have a lot of wasted money floating about in unfinished games and cancelled projects, but I don't think they are in dire straights over it. They do need to tighten their belt a little it to avoid things like that in the future though.
I don't think that investing in games like Alpha Protocol and the like are bad moves though, we haven't seen how AP has performed yet, it might actually do well for them. The constant delays have been an issue, but that can happen to any number of games.
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Not quite Sharky , and SEGA of Japan has had plenty of its own Big Budget flops , and games that have been vastly delayed , and wasting money on games that will never make it out . SEGA sank more in to Shenmue Online , than Alpha for starters , PSU was meant to be SEGA own Final Fantasy game , and had a Budget and Team size to match it , yet that flopped , Nagoshi ww game has been in development for 3 years , and still nothing seen of it.
Yeah, that is true but at least Sega Japan have been putting out its fare share of good games that sell well too... (in both arcade and home divisions)
While I can't think of much good SoA have done in the past 5 years... Condemned is really the only thing I can think of and they don't even have that IP anymore... SoA was has been ginger step brother of the company for years.
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I propose an article that details what SoA has done since Sega went third party. I'm not writing it... just throwing the idea out there.
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I propose an article that details what SoA has done since Sega went third party. I'm not writing it... just throwing the idea out there.
This sounds like a job for Aki-at and the Legend of the Mighty Arsenal!
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You guys realize that would be a rather large critical piece over Simon Jeffrey's reign, right?
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Yes.
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You guys realize that would be a rather large critical piece over Simon Jeffrey's reign, right?
The only person I can possibly think of who would hate the article is Cube
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I called that Simon Jeffrey Sega West failure two years ago when people were still defending it and admonishing me for criticizing it.
I would be more concerned about Sega Sammy if the stock price wasn't at a recent high. I think Sega is in danger but also with a real shot at a turnaround though this is definitely the last chance they get. I don't think the Digital thing is a smoke screen. . . they need Sega San Francisco to make the deals with Apple store (maybe Facebook, too) and Backbone to make the ports.
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I called that Simon Jeffrey Sega West failure two years ago when people were still defending it and admonishing me for criticizing it.
I would be more concerned about Sega Sammy if the stock price wasn't at a recent high. I think Sega is in danger but also with a real shot at a turnaround though this is definitely the last chance they get. I don't think the Digital thing is a smoke screen. . . they need Sega San Francisco to make the deals with Apple store (maybe Facebook, too) and Backbone to make the ports.
This is far from SEGA's "Last shot" at anything. Financially they are doing fine - Really good even, and have many profitable games and services out at the moment that appeal to a wide range of audiences. Their biggest problems at the moment are mostly related to their Japanese branch, with most of their games being developed with only one region in mind. PSP is not a very successful global platform for instance, nor would Resonance of Fate ever have been considered a good seller, nor would it have ever been considered a good game.
I cannot believe you want Backbone to ever work with SEGA again on anything though. SEGA's worst releases in the past 5 years can be summed up as "Developed by Backbone" with such titles as Sonic Rivals, Sonic 1 conversion for Game Boy Advance, and all of those poorly assembled Vintage Collection ports.
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Their biggest problems at the moment are mostly related to their Japanese branch, with most of their games being developed with only one region in mind. PSP is not a very successful global platform for instance, nor would Resonance of Fate ever have been considered a good seller, nor would it have ever been considered a good game.
I agree that is a major problem though I think part of that is from the legacy of the SJ Sega West that believed SOJ titles stay in Japan and western developed games get sold in the west. Now that, that is gone I think they will make an internal japanese studio shift towards making great games with global appeal.
:cough PSU
Sega needs to find its niche in today's gaming market rather than adapt itself to it by shedding its image and ignoring past franchises which was tried and failed.
That being said, while Bayo, Vanquish, and Yakuza maybe niche western offerings Sega needs to believe in itself that it can make a mega hit title again with broad mainstream appeal that isn't casual crap.
I cannot believe you want Backbone to ever work with SEGA again on anything though. SEGA's worst releases in the past 5 years can be summed up as "Developed by Backbone" with such titles as Sonic Rivals, Sonic 1 conversion for Game Boy Advance, and all of those poorly assembled Vintage Collection ports.
I dislike Backbone, I'm just being practical. They will have to continue to employ them for porting duties in cases of titles like SA and CT until they find another studio or develop an internal japanese studio that can make quality ports without being too costly and still profitable.
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Backbone did Ultimate Genesis Collection, right? They can't be completely awful. As long as they simply emulate Genesis games.
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Backbone did Ultimate Genesis Collection, right? They can't be completely awful. As long as they simply emulate Genesis games.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a four or five line function in C using the ROMs from both games. Yes, they are awful (by their reasons for not including S3&K in the collection anyway).
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I don't speak techie. ;)
Are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is simple to emulate and yet they failed to include it? If so, I agree. They should have. But it's still a great compilation disc. Of course, the disc is great due to Sega classics, not because of Backbone as a developer.
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I don't speak techie. ;)
Are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is simple to emulate and yet they failed to include it? If so, I agree. They should have. But it's still a great compilation disc. Of course, the disc is great due to Sega classics, not because of Backbone as a developer.
Yeah thats the thing, I don't imagine it's hard to emulate Mega Drive games on a 360. They also had rubbish achievements, so theres that.
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Their biggest problems at the moment are mostly related to their Japanese branch, with most of their games being developed with only one region in mind. PSP is not a very successful global platform for instance, nor would Resonance of Fate ever have been considered a good seller, nor would it have ever been considered a good game.
I agree that is a major problem though I think part of that is from the legacy of the SJ Sega West that believed SOJ titles stay in Japan and western developed games get sold in the west. Now that, that is gone I think they will make an internal japanese studio shift towards making great games with global appeal.
:cough PSU
Sega needs to find its niche in today's gaming market rather than adapt itself to it by shedding its image and ignoring past franchises which was tried and failed.
That being said, while Bayo, Vanquish, and Yakuza maybe niche western offerings Sega needs to believe in itself that it can make a mega hit title again with broad mainstream appeal that isn't casual crap.
I do not think SEGA needs to find a 'Niche', I think they need to figure out what made their games appealing at all in the first place.
Back in the 90s, Phantasy Star was not designed to be like or even similar to something like Final Fantasy to try and emulate it's success. What the designers and developers set out to do was make something fun that looked cooler than the competition. The sci-fi setting in Phantasy Star was like nothing else on the market. It looked better, it sounded better, it was longer and much more challenging than the competition. It was a hit because the designers focused on their own concepts. Today new Phantasy Star games can be summed up as very similar to Final Fantasy, Monster Hunter and the like.
The same is true with something like Golden Axe. The original was made with the thought in mind that kids liked playing as heroic characters who used swords. The end result was that it looked, played and sounded better than the competition, again offering things the other games could not. Beast Rider was designed with God of War in mind, how they can get it to be as cool as that, and how they could ride off of sex appeal with Tyris Flare, remember how that game turned out?
The most obvious offender is Sonic the Hedgehog. Today his games are designed with nothing but kids in mind, seeing what kids would find cool. It all clashes with the original idea that Sonic should be for everyone, this is the main issue with Sonic I believe, outside of Sonic Team being fucking shit I mean.
I mean, just look at AfterBurner Climax. It does everything right. It follows everything the original did with expanding its basic concepts, but not to the point that it clashes with anything the original set out to achieve. It was designed to appeal to anyone and everyone and just be based around fun all the while doing something the staff wants to do, NOT taking other ideas or trying to emulate another successful design. What happened? It was a huge success, everyone loves it. This is truly the design in which made SEGA so great, not because they used to be or need to find their "Niche".
Oh, and sorry for the rantish post!
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I don't speak techie. ;)
Are you saying that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is simple to emulate and yet they failed to include it? If so, I agree. They should have. But it's still a great compilation disc. Of course, the disc is great due to Sega classics, not because of Backbone as a developer.
In short, yes. They have the emulator in place. If it's an emulator then it should be able to run any game you can pull off of the Mega Drive's library.
Merging Sonic 3 with Sonic & Knuckles is simple in terms of programming. They can do it on the fly, the 360 and the PS3 have more than enough memory; they don't even need to have the merged ROM on the disc. Then, it's just a matter of having the emulator run the merged rom.
As fas as I remember they cited a number of difficulties for not including S3&K in the collection. To me it doesn't make sense because if they can make an emulator, I'm sure they can code something this simple. There was this site poking fun at them because of that. They even had the code. I wish I could find it...
EDit: I just remembered S&K on XBLA has lock-on. Heh, there's your reason: €€€$$$£££
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What the designers and developers set out to do was make something fun that looked cooler than the competition.
Simple but good premise.
I mean, just look at AfterBurner Climax. It does everything right. It follows everything the original did with expanding its basic concepts, but not to the point that it clashes with anything the original set out to achieve. It was designed to appeal to anyone and everyone and just be based around fun all the while doing something the staff wants to do, NOT taking other ideas or trying to emulate another successful design. What happened? It was a huge success, everyone loves it. This is truly the design in which made SEGA so great, not because they used to be or need to find their "Niche".
Oh, and sorry for the rantish post!
Well niche made it sound too narrow in scope. Sega will always have some niche stuff in their line up, but I think going with what is cool , cutting edge, and fun and making it accessible to everyone is the way to go. I probably meant more like identity than niche, like their brand differentiation point. Are EA and Activision cool, not really? Sega could be the cool one. They have to rebuild the brand that way now, that is the challenge. Right now Sega = Shit Sonic Games to 90% of the gaming population. If you could erase that and start over with ABC, Bayo, Yakuza, Vanquish, etc. you could restart with Sega being cool and for everyone again. Basically it comes down to quality and the fucking management realizing if they don't commit to it they won't have a company much longer.
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Their biggest problems at the moment are mostly related to their Japanese branch, with most of their games being developed with only one region in mind. PSP is not a very successful global platform for instance, nor would Resonance of Fate ever have been considered a good seller, nor would it have ever been considered a good game.
I agree that is a major problem though I think part of that is from the legacy of the SJ Sega West that believed SOJ titles stay in Japan and western developed games get sold in the west. Now that, that is gone I think they will make an internal japanese studio shift towards making great games with global appeal.
:cough PSU
Sega needs to find its niche in today's gaming market rather than adapt itself to it by shedding its image and ignoring past franchises which was tried and failed.
That being said, while Bayo, Vanquish, and Yakuza maybe niche western offerings Sega needs to believe in itself that it can make a mega hit title again with broad mainstream appeal that isn't casual crap.
I do not think SEGA needs to find a 'Niche', I think they need to figure out what made their games appealing at all in the first place.
Back in the 90s, Phantasy Star was not designed to be like or even similar to something like Final Fantasy to try and emulate it's success. What the designers and developers set out to do was make something fun that looked cooler than the competition. The sci-fi setting in Phantasy Star was like nothing else on the market. It looked better, it sounded better, it was longer and much more challenging than the competition. It was a hit because the designers focused on their own concepts. Today new Phantasy Star games can be summed up as very similar to Final Fantasy, Monster Hunter and the like.
The same is true with something like Golden Axe. The original was made with the thought in mind that kids liked playing as heroic characters who used swords. The end result was that it looked, played and sounded better than the competition, again offering things the other games could not. Beast Rider was designed with God of War in mind, how they can get it to be as cool as that, and how they could ride off of sex appeal with Tyris Flare, remember how that game turned out?
The most obvious offender is Sonic the Hedgehog. Today his games are designed with nothing but kids in mind, seeing what kids would find cool. It all clashes with the original idea that Sonic should be for everyone, this is the main issue with Sonic I believe, outside of Sonic Team being fucking shit I mean.
I mean, just look at AfterBurner Climax. It does everything right. It follows everything the original did with expanding its basic concepts, but not to the point that it clashes with anything the original set out to achieve. It was designed to appeal to anyone and everyone and just be based around fun all the while doing something the staff wants to do, NOT taking other ideas or trying to emulate another successful design. What happened? It was a huge success, everyone loves it. This is truly the design in which made SEGA so great, not because they used to be or need to find their "Niche".
Oh, and sorry for the rantish post!
That's one of the best and spot on Posts I've read. I'm not even sure SEGA knows its self, what makes a SEGA game. The worst part for me, is that even when SEGA try to emulate what is selling well inthe Market place, its in most cases an Inferior product
Worst still is how SEGA is being so hopeless outclassed in tech and Online, after being at the forefront on both since the Saturn days, right through the X-Box and Cube .
Maybe SEGA best days have gone forever
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That's one of the best and spot on Posts I've read. I'm not even sure SEGA knows its self, what makes a SEGA game. The worst part for me, is that even when SEGA try to emulate what is selling well inthe Market place, its in most cases an Inferior product
Worst still is how SEGA is being so hopeless outclassed in tech and Online, after being at the forefront on both since the Saturn days, right through the X-Box and Cube .
Maybe SEGA best days have gone forever
Well thats because when Sega trys to emulate the competition they are not doing what they do best.
I couldn't say if Segas best days are behind them (Although probably since having a console is probably the hight of any videogame company) but I can happily say their worst days are... From 2003 too 2006 I hardly baught anything Sega made. While 2010 I have baught more just in the last 4 months then I did in 3 years during that period.
-Bayonetta
-Yakuza 3
-Nepoleon TW
-Sega Racing
-After Burner Climax
(Had Valkyria Chronicles 2, Phantasy Star Portable 2 or Yakuza 4 came out in the UK and not just Japan I'd have had all of those two)
As for 'Sega Style' and 'everyone outclassing them' Sega easily still hangs onto the medal for best SRPG and probably even best JRPG of this generation so far and Virtua Fighter 5 is yet to be topped in the 3D fighter arena. While I know you are not the biggest fan the Yakuza series is VERY Sega to me and I don't think any other company comes even close to doing what that game does even if the tech is dated now.
Total War or Football Manager may not be original Sega games but they are the top of their genres.
I think Segas arcade division are the best they have been right now since the Naomi days.
I'm not saying Sega are on top of their game or even as good as the competition right now... but at the end of the day they still make and publish Sega-ish games and thats what matters to me.
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Well thats because when Sega trys to emulate the competition they are not doing what they do best
I'm Sorry sharky my good mate, I just don't agree . Streets Of Rage was SEGA emulating the Comp , and SEGA made a game that was Far better, and just took the piss with SOR II. SEGA was ripping off Track and Field with Decathelte, and with it... SEGA made one of the best sporting games ever produced . SEGA was ripping off Diablo with PSO, and it ranks as the one of the true Highpoint of SEGA.
Virtual Racing , Virtual Cop Daytona USA , Panzer Dragoon were in many ways SEGA's answer to Drivers Eye's, Lethal Enforcers Ridge Racer, Star Fox , and it really didn't get any better than those days. Ok, most prob I'm might be the only one, but I loved SEGA GT series too.
SEGA always been great at taking other IP's and putting its own Spin on it .
I couldn't say if Segas best days are behind them (Although probably since having a console is probably the hight of any videogame company) but I can happily say their worst days are... From 2003 too 2006 I hardly baught anything Sega made. While 2010 I have baught more just in the last 4 months then I did in 3 years during that period.
-Bayonetta
-Yakuza 3
-Nepoleon TW
-Sega Racing
-After Burner Climax
Bayonetta isn't a SEGA game , I haven't even played Sega Racing, much less seen it in any Arcades (so can't really comment on that) . Its hard to find any fault with the Arcade Staff and their games, Consumer Divisions, it's a Different story.
Yakuza 3 isn't as good as Yakuza II imo, which was for me the highpoint of the series, and also a technical showcase -In how to get the best out of the PS2 (I can't say the same for Yakuza III).
Yakuza 1& II, OutRun Coast To Coast, SEGA GT Online, VF 4 Evo all came out in the dark days,you speak off. To me they're as good, if not better than anything SEGA produced of late.
Sega easily still hangs onto the medal for best SRPG and probably even best JRPG of this generation so far and Virtua Fighter 5 is yet to be topped in the 3D fighter arena. While I know you are not the biggest fan the Yakuza series is VERY Sega to me and I don't think any other company comes even close to doing what that game does even if the tech is dated now.
Val Is brilliant, but its years old, and to me I enjoyed Blue Dragoon more as an RPG. What so depressing about VAL, is rather than Build on it , and take it forward and improve Canvas , SEGA cut it down, and bring it to the PSP (which I don't think as resulted in better sales).
VF 5 is class , so is VT III , its always tends to be, with the Arcade side making games. How can AM#2 be so word class in the Arcades and push what is in effect a cheap Pentium 4 with VF 5 (that looks better than any next gen fighter), yet most of SEGA consumer teams,are not able to push the Wii I do not know .
I loved the 1st 2 Yakuza games , but the series is becoming stale, taking backwards step in terms of tech and Animation, and offering more of the same , The same shops , the same locations (for the most part), and like Sonic being miked far much, and the teams not given enough development time.
This year as been the worst ever for me as a SEGA consumer fan, it really has.
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I should have been more spesific, I ment when Sega trys to replicate Western developed games.. I don't think Sega should (at all) develop games that try to be western. But the problem is thats what sell these days.
As for Bayonetta, sure it isnt developed by Sega inhouse but Sega had enough to do with it and it plays like a Sega game enough for me to think of it as one.
While I would agree that in many ways Yakuza 2 was better then 3, all indications are that Yakuza 4 is better then all of them from the impressions I've read.
I dunno, while I'm totally agreeing Sega are not at their most healthy this year I'd be lying if I said I haven't enjoyed many of their games... (developed inhouse or not)
I'm far from giving up on Sega, they deffinitly didn't handle this gen perfectly but I think they will learn from their mistakes and get back on top of the game.
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I am far from saying SEGA sucks or that this year is one of their worst. Their offerings lately have been some of the best they have given out this generation (admit it, their early HD offerings sucked), and I think with titles like Bayonetta succeeding against all odds it can only get better for the company.
My biggest issue with them personally is their releases are all over the place. Why do they have to release Yakuza 3 only on PlayStation 3? Why do they have to put excellent looking games like Phantasy Star Portable 2 and Project K on PSP exclusively? Why is Gain Ground Again only on mobile platforms in Japan? It is extremely frustrating for me because these are their games I want to play the most, but just cannot.
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My biggest issue with them personally is their releases are all over the place. Why do they have to release Yakuza 3 only on PlayStation 3? Why do they have to put excellent looking games like Phantasy Star Portable 2 and Project K on PSP exclusively? Why is Gain Ground Again only on mobile platforms in Japan? It is extremely frustrating for me because these are their games I want to play the most, but just cannot.
I think this problem isn't exclusive to Sega, it's something that most third party devs deal with. I love Capcom, but dislike that I'd have to own all three consoles and the PSP to enjoy all of their games.
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My biggest issue with them personally is their releases are all over the place. Why do they have to release Yakuza 3 only on PlayStation 3? Why do they have to put excellent looking games like Phantasy Star Portable 2 and Project K on PSP exclusively? Why is Gain Ground Again only on mobile platforms in Japan? It is extremely frustrating for me because these are their games I want to play the most, but just cannot.
I think this problem isn't exclusive to Sega, it's something that most third party devs deal with. I love Capcom, but dislike that I'd have to own all three consoles and the PSP to enjoy all of their games.
I think with SEGA it is a more extreme case. Lost Planet II, Resident Evil 5, and Street Fighter IV are all on both HD platforms, and sometimes even PC, and in the later case they even made a good/decent alternative for Wii.
It is like, look how poor their SEGA Vintage Collection is. These are some of their best games ever, but they did not give them any thought and just let Backbone release anything that was above constant crashing. Look at Final Fight Double Impact, I dislike both of the games included on that, but I can greatly appreciate all of the work put into them. If SEGA did the same with remakes of Gain Ground and Crack Down in a pack with nice new graphics, music, extras and good achievements I would seriously go marry whoever made the decision to release that.
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This East/West market paradigm deal that became so pronounced this gen needs to go to hell. Wtf is so different about this gen from the PS2/Xbox/GC/DC gen that fucking western marketed games have to be western developed to sell and eastern games have to be westernized if not they stay in Japan??? That really screwed Sega this gen besides shitty Wii surprising and taking over the market. I say fuck all that and Sega's internal studios should be working on titles with global appeal. It's not impossible. Maybe they are just afraid of the gamble? And some of you guys don't get why I'm against mainstream western gaming. . .
Bayonetta is Sega style, it's a Sega game.
Sega needs to go strong with digital. I'm looking forward to Sonic 4 and I hope it is not only successful commercial but with fan appeal. Sega could be looking strong again 2 or 3 years from this point.
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@Sega Uranus
My gripe is the uneven exclusive games that Sega is offering on the HD consoles. Last gen, you could own a PS2 and XBOX and have a great offerings on both consoles with little to no crossover:
XBOX: Orta, JSRF, Gunvalkryie, Crazy Taxi 3, Shenmue 2
PS2: SC5 Part 2, Gungrave, Rez, Virtua Fighter 4
This gen, nearly every game gets a release on both system with only a few not finding their way to the other. I very much doubt being an exclusive helps the sales of these games either.
360: Virtua Fighter 5 Online, Outrun Online Arcade (in the US), Virtual-On HD, Rez HD
PS3: Yakuza 3, Yakuza 4, Valkyria Chronicles
The 360 suffers from only having short arcade games as exclusives, while the PS3 suffers from having games that are not given as much support outside Japan. Valkyria's sequel was relegated to the PSP and Yakuza 4 may or may not come to the US/UK. If it does, it may not be for a while.
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I should have been more spesific, I ment when Sega trys to replicate Western developed games.. I don't think Sega should (at all) develop games that try to be western. But the problem is thats what sell these days.
As for Bayonetta, sure it isnt developed by Sega inhouse but Sega had enough to do with it and it plays like a Sega game enough for me to think of it as one.
While I would agree that in many ways Yakuza 2 was better then 3, all indications are that Yakuza 4 is better then all of them from the impressions I've read.
I dunno, while I'm totally agreeing Sega are not at their most healthy this year I'd be lying if I said I haven't enjoyed many of their games... (developed inhouse or not)
I'm far from giving up on Sega, they deffinitly didn't handle this gen perfectly but I think they will learn from their mistakes and get back on top of the game.
Oh I see, but it’s not like SEGA hasn’t or can’t make games with worldwide Global appeal , as the likes of Crazy Taxi, Sonic ECT show . Capcom isn’t any less Capcom, isn't less a Japanese Corp for making Lost Planet , Resident Evil 5, SF IV, Dead Rising, on those games have gone on to before well in all markets.
Just contrast Lost Planet 2 to any of SEGA recent offerings, there’s a game with some of the most stunning tech, use of art this generation (that was one a SEGA trademark) it’s also embraced LIVE and PSN with 4 player Co-Op and 16 player battles, On-line an area SEGA did so much, an area was so far Ahead of the game with the Dreamcast , Yet even Monster Hunter on the Wii, is far more impressive and technically better than any On-Line game SEGA produced in years (this after the late great Isao Okawa believed so much in On-Line).
Bayonetta isn't a SEGA game, and just because its uses some music and levels from SEGA classics doesn't mean its a SEGA game . Gunstar onthe GBA is still a Treasure game, not matter the homage to After Burner in it.
SEGA never made a Bayoneta style game in it's life , Bay is far more closer to the likes of DMC, Ninja Gaiden, than the likes of Shinobi or Blood Will Tell.
I don't meant to go on a constant downer, and do your head in, but I'm seeing SEGA failing behind all the time, and calling yet another Generation of hardware badly wrong. Maybe SEGA will have a stunning E3, and Toyko Game show, maybe the likes of Natal and Move will spark SEGA into Life. I'm Sure SONIC Team have good stuff coming and will shock many, maybe even Ueda-san game is back on track . But I'm just getting so very sick of saying or waiting for the next E3, the next Toyko show,how... it will be different next year .
That doesn't mean, One is turning their back on the Company, or stop pushing and supporting the Corp. Its just right now, there's nothing from SEGA's Consumer Teams that I want to buy, much less looking forward too, other than downloads of Classic Arcade games and Console games, That's bad.
I just would like some of the old good times back, when you could put REZ, JSRF, Shenmue II, Crazy, Monkeyball in ones console, feel proud, get a buzz and have a great time with a game only SEGA could produce , Call your mates over, and say look at the , there's not many games that look, sound better, or play better. The last time I was able to to that, was when Val or VF 5 shipped, and that was years ago ..
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Not trying to pick a fight or anything but I think you are also giving too much credit to Capcom.
I played the original Lost Planet and I ended up selling it after just a few weeks of gameplay, despite it's western appeal, it's just not that great of a game. Maybe the sequel will be better, just maybe...
Dead Rising is a great idea, except when you start getting bored out of your mind after bashing your 300.000th zombie, because that's all you do, that is apart from some ocassional rescue missions and boss battles. Not much else.
Should we even bring up Dark Void as a very dissapointing entry from Capcom?
But I get what you're saying, it does show that japanese developers are taking baby steps to get the next-gen hardware they're working with, of course, that isn't so much a compliment as we are now 5 years into the current generation.
And, apart from Final Fantasy 13(and even that one was heavily criticized), what has SquareEnix produced on the 360 and PS3 that is even remotely enjoyable? Infinite Undiscovery is a terrible RPG, so was the shooter Project Sylpheed.
But of course, much of this does apply to Sega, but at least, Sega does seem to cater better to specific markets, as they rely a lot on Football Manager and Total War series, it might seem odd at first, but these two particular franchises have gotten Sega a strong foothold in the PC market, a venue thought to be dead, but Sega is sucking out as many pennies as they can.
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Bayonetta isn't a SEGA game, and just because its uses some music and levels from SEGA classics doesn't mean its a SEGA game.
SEGA never made a Bayoneta style game in it's life , Bay is far more closer to the likes of DMC, Ninja Gaiden, than the likes of Shinobi or Blood Will Tell.
I will disagree with this to the grave. Sega has their bright and shiny logo on the box and at the intro, the game was funded by Sega, the game was published by Sega, the game includes a plethora of Sega references (probably the most since Shenmue II)... how is that not a Sega game?
While yes, Bayonetta IS closer to DMC or Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta shares the quirky over-the-top Sega style found in Jet Set Radio, Streets of Rage, Shinobi, HOTD: Overkill and Altered Beast. Characters like Rodin, Enzo and Bayonetta herself fit in very well with the likes of Captain Onishima, Professor K, Isaac Washington, Goro, Ren, Joy and Ulala.
Honestly, to say Bayonetta is not a Sega game is just stupid. I still like you though, Team Andromeda. :afroman:
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Not trying to pick a fight or anything but I think you are also giving too much credit to Capcom.
I played the original Lost Planet and I ended up selling it after just a few weeks of gameplay, despite it's western appeal, it's just not that great of a game. Maybe the sequel will be better, just maybe...
Dead Rising is a great idea, except when you start getting bored out of your mind after bashing your 300.000th zombie, because that's all you do, that is apart from some ocassional rescue missions and boss battles. Not much else.
Should we even bring up Dark Void as a very dissapointing entry from Capcom
Not at all mate , I'm all for debates . Sure Lost Planet isn't for, or to everyone liking. Its a well produced game , its also using great Tech and using the Internet more than any SEGA game I can think of (of late).
Sure Dead Rising isn't for everyone, but one can't deny its not a well produced game . I'don't like the GTA series of game, but not for one moment, will I make out, that GTA IV isn't a well made game , isn't using great tech, and making great use out of the Internet .
You can by almeans bring up Dark Void, but its only Published by Capcom, Its not like SEGA haven't published poor games, Planet 51: The Game.
And, apart from Final Fantasy 13(and even that one was heavily criticized), what has SquareEnix produced on the 360 and PS3 that is even remotely enjoyable? Infinite Undiscovery is a terrible RPG, so was the shooter Project Sylpheed.
I don't care much for Square and I never have done . I could point out that FF13 is pushing some brilliant graphics, sold by the Truck load, and Multi Platform . That FF 14 could be another top entry into the MMRPG market, where SEGA's next big Internet game ? .
All I will really say , is that Project Sylpheed was bloody brilliant imo, and Wing Commader for the next Gen, which is why I loved it.
Most Japanese corps, were caught out, not only with the 360 selling far better than expected, the call for Internet games, but also inthe use of Middleware and Tech. But we're 5 years in, and SEGA still seems, not to know which direction to take. I will say this though, until Sonic is fixed once and for all, there SEGA will never seem to be doing right, however unfair that is.
I will disagree with this to the grave. Sega has their bright and shiny logo on the box and at the intro, the game was funded by Sega, the game was published by Sega, the game includes a plethora of Sega references (probably the most since Shenmue II)... how is that not a Sega game
Microsoft funded Ninja Gaiden II , DOA IV , There's X-Box signs, HALO characters and stage in DOA IV. Who made the game , Team Ninja or MS. SEGA logos , SEGA credits in MSR, who game do we see that has, SEGA or Bizarre Creations. Lot's of SEGA's logs in Gunstar Heroes , and SEGA References, how made that SEGA or Treasure.
Lots of NCL References , Fan service and NCL logo's in Twin Snakes , how's game is that NCL or Konami's ? . What about F-Zero GX is that a SEGA made game or an NCL one , because of all the fan service, the Little NCL references through the game (even R.O.B) and NCL logo's
While yes, Bayonetta IS closer to DMC or Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta shares the quirky over-the-top Sega style found in Jet Set Radio, Streets of Rage, Shinobi, HOTD: Overkill and Altered Beast. Characters like Rodin, Enzo and Bayonetta herself fit in very well with the likes of Captain Onishima, Professor K, Isaac Washington, Goro, Ren, Joy and Ulala.
SOR ?, Those games you talk of, other than DMC share little in common
There's more in Common with Bullet Witch and Bay (in terms of Art), as opposed to Bay and JSR
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One thing I will happily agree with TA is that Capcom have been doing better this gen then Sega have... But that's about the only Japanese publisher that has. But lets not pretend that Capcom have been faultless! games like Dark Void and Bionic Commando were pretty poor games. DMC4 was one of the worst in the series and while many seemed to like them, I didn't really care for Dead Rising or Lost Planet 1, Although Lost Planet 2 looks much much better. Dead Rising 2 looks very similar to the original and lets not forget the miserable one on the Wii.
But in Capcoms defense Street Fighter 4, Super Street Fighter, Monster Hunter Wii ect have been really good games and very successful.
(But Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown and the next HD PSO will wipe the floor with both! =D)
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Microsoft funded Ninja Gaiden II , DOA IV , There's X-Box signs, HALO characters and stage in DOA IV. Who made the game , Team Ninja or MS. SEGA logos , SEGA credits in MSR, who game do we see that has, SEGA or Bizarre Creations. Lot's of SEGA's logs in Gunstar Heroes , and SEGA References, how made that SEGA or Treasure.
Lots of NCL References , Fan service and NCL logo's in Twin Snakes , how's game is that NCL or Konami's ? . What about F-Zero GX is that a SEGA made game or an NCL one , because of all the fan service, the Little NCL references through the game (even R.O.B) and NCL logo's
^Sorry, there was a lot of letters and odd english going on up there^
So I'll do my best to make of it what I can.
In terms of DOA IV, I'd argue that unlike Bayonetta, DOA IV's devs WEREN'T inspired by Microsoft in the same way that Platinum Games was inspired by Sega. Particularly Bayonetta being inspired by AM2 classics both in gameplay and music. Without Sega, you can bet that segments like the motorcycle riding and missile piloting would not be in the game. Those segments were both tied to the plot and brought new gameplay to the game beyond the usual fighting.
DOA IV's inclusion of Halo elements, however, did not affect the gameplay in the slightest. Halo in DOA IV is no different from Banjo-Kazooie being in SASASR or Zelda being in Soul Calibur 4. Its a console exclusive character cameo. Replace Spartan-458 (Nicole) with a DOA character and the gameplay wold be no different. Basically, what I'm getting at is that Bayonetta's Sega references run much deeper than simple cameos. Platinum literally made 3D OutRun and Space Harrier inspired levels and weaved them into the storyline.
As for Gunstar Heroes or MSR, those games have their own levels of Sega influence and arguing for or against their "Sega-ness" has no bearing on Bayonetta. But, since you brought them up, I think they're Sega games as it is my belief that if Sega published it and owns the rights to it, then legally it's a Sega game. Aside from the legal fact of them being Sega games, both were influenced by Sega as per the Sega references you mentioned being in Gunstar Heroes and Richard Jacques providing the music for MSR.
It all comes down to how you view games. Do you look at it with your heart, or with your head? Personally, I go with my head first (did Sega publish the game and do they own the rights to it?) and then I go with my heart (What sort of influence did Sega have on the game?). It seems you are more heart than head, knowingly avoiding the true legal sense of Bayonetta being a Sega game and rather depending on feelings. It would seem you didn't feel enough Sega influence to accept Bayonetta as a Sega game. I'm curious, by that logic do you consider 'Ivy the Kiwi' more of a Sega game than Bayonetta?
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But that's about the only Japanese publisher that has. But lets not pretend that Capcom have been faultless! games like Dark Void and Bionic Commando were pretty poor games.
I'll not make out that everthing Capcom does it spot on , and not make out that Capcom have been Faultless. I'm making out they're one of the few Jp Corps with a clear direction , called it right on getting a Multi Platform, Multi Purpose game engine ready for its , right at the start of this gaming Generation, and have made brilliant use of Online.
Sure you can Highlight Dark Void, but was SEGA's Iron Man any better ?, was SEGA own update of Golden Axe, better than Bionic Commando ?.
DMC4 was one of the worst in the series and while many seemed to like them, I didn't really care for Dead Rising or Lost Planet 1, Although Lost Planet 2 looks much much better. Dead Rising 2 looks very similar to the original and lets not forget the miserable one on the Wii.
I've never much liked DMC series after the 1st game, but DMC was a well made game , using some decent tech, and pleasing its fans. Lost Planet I thought was fab, stunning use of the Framework engine, inspired Art and design on the stages, and some great use of the Internet, Fighting it out on a stage made to look like the floors of Capcom offices, was just the icing on the cake. Just a Japanese company that seem to have truly got it this gen. To be fair I've also been very impressed with FromSoftware. Chromhounds was the most fun On-Live I had this generation, enjoyed Nina Blade more than most games, and thought Demon Souls to be amazing,and used the Internet in brand new ways .
I can but hope, SEGA is working hard on a full on Next Gen PSO, using a improved HedgeHog engine, and make Monster Hunter Wii, look like nothing. That AM#2 is bringing the likes of Border Break, VF 5 Final to the Home with massive new modes, GFX improvments and fully making use of Live. Maybe we'll get a Sonic 3D game , that floors people, for all the right reasons
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In terms of DOA IV, I'd argue that unlike Bayonetta, DOA IV's devs WEREN'T inspired by Microsoft in the same way that Platinum Games was inspired by Sega. Particularly Bayonetta being inspired by AM2 classics both in gameplay and music. Without Sega, you can bet that segments like the motorcycle riding and missile piloting would not be in the game
The Space Harrier and AfterBurner type stages maybe, the bike parts I'm really not so sure, it didn't play that great, or remind me much of any SEGA racer. Most of bayonetta reminded me more of DMC, Ninja Gaiden than any SEGA action game I can think off.
Platinum literally made 3D OutRun and Space Harrier inspired levels and weaved them into the storyline
They're just bonus games to break up the game, and a nice little bit of Fan service.
Halo in DOA IV is no different from Banjo-Kazooie being in SASASR or Zelda being in Soul Calibur 4.
No what I'm talking about , is whom you credit as the developers . Do people see it was SEGA that made SASAR or more Sumo , do people think NCL made Soul Cailbuir on the Cube, or more it was Namco.
Sega games as it is my belief that if Sega published it and owns the rights to it, then legally it's a Sega game. Aside from the legal fact of them being Sega games, both were influenced by Sega as per the Sega references you mentioned being in Gunstar Heroes and Richard Jacques providing the music for MSR.
Well while that is correct . who do we really credit for making Radiant SilverGun onthe ST-V or Saturn . SEGA because they published in the Arcades , ESP becasue they published for the Home, or Treasure ?. What about Gradius V, do we feel its more a Konami game, than a Treasure developed game ?. Tbf though , I'll give credit to SEGA, for insisting Treasure make a Arcade game for them (which SEGA did ask)
It seems you are more heart than head, knowingly avoiding the true legal sense of Bayonetta being a Sega game and rather depending on feelings. It would seem you didn't feel enough Sega influence to accept
No its because when I play F-Zero GX its more a SEGA game than a NCL one, when I play Sonic Vs Mario is more a SEGA game than a NCL game.
SEGA may well have published and help out WARP with Enemy Zero and D2 , but to me they're WARP games, not SEGA's.
SEGA may well have published and again helped out on Climax various games, but to me the likes of Blue stinger are Climax games .
Bayonneta is a Platinum game,and a game and a developer SEGA had to the good sense to sign up
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Capcom style games and franchises are closer to mainstream western, Sega style is a lot riskier. Other than Crazy Taxi and PSO which there is no excuse for not having their next gen sequels, games like Rez, Jet, Panzer, and Shenmue didn't sell well to begin with. Management is reluctant to commit major resources to projects that are going to be a gamble in the marketplace.
Sega's layoff letter said they were going through a leadership position in digital through innovation and quality. As long as they are genuinely thinking that way there is cause for optimism.
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Capcom style games and franchises are closer to mainstream western, Sega style is a lot riskier. Other than Crazy Taxi and PSO which there is no excuse for not having their next gen sequels, games like Rez, Jet, Panzer, and Shenmue didn't sell well to begin with. Management is reluctant to commit major resources to projects that are going to be a gamble in the marketplace
That isn't that fair . Before Resident Evil , Horror games wereseen as last gen , Alone inthe Dark series was selling ever less, and a complete flop on consoles . It was a huge gamble to produced RE at that time.
DMC again was a Huge risk, to take what was meant to be RE 4 onthe PS2, and turn it into a brand new action game, the likes of which, wasn't an established seller or genre, was a risk.
More of a risk was for a Japanese developer to Endorse a successor console, one that had yet to be established in the USA, never mind Japan, more so after you had dismal sales on the X-Box. Then to make a game that was Sandbox and aimed with Western Markets in mind 1st and foremost; Were Huge risk for Capcom’s Dead Rising . Never mind to at the same time work on yet another Brand new IP for the same console, and commit over 20 million for the game production .
Those and in anyone books Huge risks.
Never mind That Capcom also took Huge risks with Steal Battalion, Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe , P.N.03 , Godhand. Some of those paid off, some didn’t.
To make a sequel to a game and formula most though had died (more so with SF III poor penetration) with Street Fighter IV was risk . Don’t give me this Capcom don't take risks or their style is less of an risk .
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Capcom style games and franchises are closer to mainstream western, Sega style is a lot riskier. Other than Crazy Taxi and PSO which there is no excuse for not having their next gen sequels, games like Rez, Jet, Panzer, and Shenmue didn't sell well to begin with. Management is reluctant to commit major resources to projects that are going to be a gamble in the marketplace.
totally agreed .
Don’t give me this Capcom don't take risks or their style is less of an risk .
i go with the 2nd option
Never mind That Capcom also took Huge risks with Steal Battalion, Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe , P.N.03 , Godhand. Some of those paid off, some didn’t.
those games you mentioned were games created by the people who is outside of Capcom , and they are working with SEGA right now ...
i think this is make sense i guess
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those games you mentioned were games created by the people who is outside of Capcom , and they are working with SEGA right now
Clover was In-House Capcom Team, 100% funded and 100% owned by Capcom . No different from Smilebit or UGA. Like those teams the risks didn't pay off, staff left , and the rest were merged with the other In-House teams.
And P.N.03 was made by Production Studio 4
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Hey, guys I wanted to give you an update on Sega's moves.
MCV UK is reporting that Pritchard will be the new head of north american operations: (http://http://www.mcvuk.com/news/38827/Pritchard-takes-Sega-US-hotseat)
Sega’s European MD Alan Pritchard will move to the US next month to become vice president of sales and marketing for Sega America, MCV can reveal.
His replacement as the boss for Sega Europe will be Jurgen Post.
Pritchard was promoted to Euro MD last year following a successful stint as head of UK. He will take his new position at Sega America on June 1st. Meanwhile, Post is currently the MD for Sega Benelux and has previous experience working for Sony Computer Entertainment Europe.
The changes are part of Sega’s Western restructure, which will see Sega Europe handle box product for all Western territories, while Sega America will focus on developing a digital strategy.
This means that several Sega Europe bosses have had their remits extended to look after US operations.
European marketing director Gary Knight will become vice president of brand marketing, European studios boss Gary Dunn will become senior vice president for development, while commercial director Gary Rowe has been promoted to senior vice president of publishing and content.
Sega has also confirmed there will be 73 job losses as a part of the restructure – 37 in Sega Europe and 36 in Sega America. MCV understands that many of these redundancies have already taken place and are happening across all departments.
"All of our central brand marketing initiatives will be done with Sega West in mind, rather than having our team in America going in one direction and our team in Europe going in another," said Alan Pritchard.
Sega is also seeking a senior vice president for digital to work out of its San Francisco office.
For more details on Sega’s re-structure make sure to check MCV magazine or MCVUK.com tomorrow.
Starting June 1st, Sega of America will start operating more like Sega of Europe, that can be a good thing.
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Reminds me of season 2 of Mad Men, when the Brtis came to the US to run the offices. I hope things go better than they went on a fictional TV show!
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those games you mentioned were games created by the people who is outside of Capcom , and they are working with SEGA right now
Clover was In-House Capcom Team, 100% funded and 100% owned by Capcom . No different from Smilebit or UGA. Like those teams the risks didn't pay off, staff left , and the rest were merged with the other In-House teams.
And P.N.03 was made by Production Studio 4
i was talking about capcom this generation .
the people who were known for their unique titles left the company aka ( Clover Studio ) actually the studio closure was by Capcom themselves . why do you think that happened ?
also most of the Production Studio 4 staff went to Clover at the time when it was first founded .
regarding SEGA , this has nothing to do with UGA or Smilebit !
the whole studios in the company create games that doesn't fit with the mass market in the west not only UGA & Smilebit .
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And P.N.03 was made by Production Studio 4
i was talking about capcom this generation .
the people who were known for their unique title left the company aka ( Clover Studio ) actually the studio closure was by Capcom themselves . why do you think that happened ?
also most of the Production Studio 4 staff went to Clover at the time .
regarding SEGA , this is has nothing to do with UGA or Smilebit !
the whole studios in the company create games that doesn't fit with the mass market not only UGA & Smilebit .
Well if you talk about this generation what as SEGA done that's really risk taking on consoles ,or really Unique?. Making new versions of Monkeyball, Yakuza, VF, VT, Sonic aren't really taking massive risks, the new version of NiGHTS not really that unique . About the only real big risk was Val, and not in terms of new IP , but also in terms of tech. But sadly SEGA didn't stick with it for consoles, so we get PSP version.
Smilebit, UGA, Clover were very much alike in terms of their brief and output, to make games , not quite the norm, and games noted for they Art. Sadly it didn't work out for either, but like with SEGA, not all the staff left
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I think this whole topic is insane. I hate where this is all going so I will just finish it off now.
Bayonetta is a SEGA game and is not like Devil May Cry or especially Ninja Gaiden at ALL.
Shenmue sold over a million, this is not a failure in sales terms, it failed to make it's money back because it was stupidly over budget. I do not even know what Shenmue has to do with any of this.
Most of Capcom's games this generation are not very good at all, same with Square-Enix. Go ahead and make lists if you must, I will tell you why most of them suck. I would argue SEGA is *significantly* better and that, and even the likes of Ubisoft and Activision are releasing better products.
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Capcom style games and franchises are closer to mainstream western, Sega style is a lot riskier. Other than Crazy Taxi and PSO which there is no excuse for not having their next gen sequels, games like Rez, Jet, Panzer, and Shenmue didn't sell well to begin with. Management is reluctant to commit major resources to projects that are going to be a gamble in the marketplace
That isn't that fair . Before Resident Evil , Horror games wereseen as last gen , Alone inthe Dark series was selling ever less, and a complete flop on consoles . It was a huge gamble to produced RE at that time.
DMC again was a Huge risk, to take what was meant to be RE 4 onthe PS2, and turn it into a brand new action game, the likes of which, wasn't an established seller or genre, was a risk.
More of a risk was for a Japanese developer to Endorse a successor console, one that had yet to be established in the USA, never mind Japan, more so after you had dismal sales on the X-Box. Then to make a game that was Sandbox and aimed with Western Markets in mind 1st and foremost; Were Huge risk for Capcom’s Dead Rising . Never mind to at the same time work on yet another Brand new IP for the same console, and commit over 20 million for the game production .
Those and in anyone books Huge risks.
Never mind That Capcom also took Huge risks with Steal Battalion, Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe , P.N.03 , Godhand. Some of those paid off, some didn’t.
To make a sequel to a game and formula most though had died (more so with SF III poor penetration) with Street Fighter IV was risk . Don’t give me this Capcom don't take risks or their style is less of an risk .
Capcom = guns and commandos = western mainstream gaming
I don't care what risks Capcom took last gen, that isn't relevant to this gen. I'm not arguing which company is the greatest risk taker, I'm stating that Sega style is typically less the norm and less mainstream than Capcom's.
It tells you everything that the creators of PN03 and Killer 7 are now working with Sega. The evidence is right there staring you in the face.
It fits with everything I argued with you about that you didn't want to face the facts that the rise of western mainstream gaming coincided with the fall of Sega.
This is the least artistic, least creative, most commercialized and risk adverse generation of all prior gaming generations. That is why Sega has struggled to find its place in the mainstream pulse of current western gaming which is dominated by core mainstream, rather than hardcore players, who understand gaming as hollywood style interactive movie, heavy on cinematics and FPS and TPS gun action.
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I think this whole topic is insane. I hate where this is all going so I will just finish it off now.
Free discussion is a good thing!
SEGA!
Shenmue sold over a million, this is not a failure in sales terms, it failed to make it's money back because it was stupidly over budget. I do not even know what Shenmue has to do with any of this.
Fans never state what Sega stated themselves that a lot of the Shenmue investment was paid off in the training and tech that got applied to other games from the making of it.
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Bayonetta is a SEGA game and is not like Devil May Cry or especially Ninja Gaiden at ALL
What rubbish, you name one SEGA action game with a combo system like Bay, They isn't one. Which is why SEGA singed up Platinum in the 1st place.
Shenmue sold over a million, this is not a failure in sales terms, it failed to make it's money back because it was stupidly over budget. I do not even know what Shenmue has to do with any of this
Shenmue sold well , and just about made its $20 Million Budget back. Shenmue II on the other hand, was a compete flop in Japan and a poor seller inthe USA and Europe on 2 different consoles, nowhere near enough to make up the $50 million short fall for the Shenmue project in total.
I would argue SEGA is *significantly* better and that, and even the likes of Ubisoft and Activision are releasing better products.
Square for sure. the likes of Capcom or Ubi, not even close.
I don't care what risks Capcom took last gen, that isn't relevant to this gen. I'm not arguing which company is the greatest risk taker, I'm stating that Sega style is typically less the norm and less mainstream than Capcom'
What risks have Sega taken this gen ? , what less norm game have SEGA made this gen In-House on consoles. I'm really not seeing any at all.
It tells you everything that the creators of PN03 and Killer 7 are now working with Sega. The evidence is right there staring you in the face
Where are the creators of SEGA Rally , REZ, Sonic ? They're not at SEGA any more . SEGA it's self as lost load of its best staff. How done a better job of updating its classic IP, Capcom or SEGA. One takes out AM#2 and SEGA record becomes a bit poor.
That is why Sega has struggled to find its place in the mainstream pulse of current western gaming which is dominated by core mainstream, rather than hardcore players, who understand gaming as hollywood style interactive movie, heavy on cinematics and FPS and TPS gun action.
You want this myth of so called Hard Core gaming, or a gamers machine, then buy a 360. That's the console seen a true gamers machine in Japan (why the like of Cave support it) That the reason why the 360 boats the highest console to game ratio . What's SEGA done on the platform ?, next to nothing when it comes to exclusives . Where's this fab and unmatched Art in the like of Monkey Ball on the Wii, Yakuza on the PS3 , or Sonic on every platform ??
who understand gaming as hollywood style interactive movie, heavy on cinematics and FPS and TPS gun action.
So what's Yakuza if it isn't focused on interactive movie style &heavy on Cinematics, Val if it isn't full of gun action through out the entire game. Does Bayonetta this so called SEGA game , not feature a ton of blood and Guts , and plenty of Guns ???.
What about those Alien games , they not feature any guns, same goes of House of the Dead series , LA machine Guns , GunBlade New York (clue in the title lads) , Virtual Cop, 2 Spicy, Rambo , Lets Go Jungle . No.. there's not a gun its sight in those titles :roll:
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Bayonetta is a SEGA game and is not like Devil May Cry or especially Ninja Gaiden at ALL
What rubbish, you name one SEGA action game with a combo system like Bay, They isn't one. Which is why SEGA singed up Platinum in the 1st place.
But why did you mention Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry when they play nothing like Bayonetta at all? Just two pages ago you agreed with me that something that made SEGA so great in the 90s was because the developers made what they wanted to make and not copy the industry, or even themselves.
Plus I do not know why a 'Combo system' is the defining feature in what makes a game SEGA-like or not. Try and name me one other game series by SEGA that plays exactly like Yakuza does. You cannot, because none exist. I guess that means it is not a SEGA game by your logic!
I would argue SEGA is *significantly* better and that, and even the likes of Ubisoft and Activision are releasing better products.
Square for sure. the likes of Capcom or Ubi, not even close.
Where is your argument? You are not even mentioning any of their games. I can say Midway was the best company in the business, but if I never say why my point would not mean shit.
(by the way I never thought Midway was good, this is just an example I wanted to bring up)
Where are the creators of SEGA Rally , REZ, Sonic ? They're not at SEGA any more . SEGA it's self as lost load of its best staff. How done a better job of updating its classic IP, Capcom or SEGA. One takes out AM#2 and SEGA record becomes a bit poor.
I really hope you are joking... Have you seen their games lately?
Since Mizuguchi left SEGA he has made Lumines, Meteos, the first Ninety Nine Nights and Every Extend Extra. Do you know what all of these games have in common? They all fucking suck shit.
The same is true with Naka, with such classics as Let's Tap, Let's Catch, 'Ivy the Kiwi?' and that iPhone game you touch a bear really fast so he stands up.
Do not get me started on Oshinima, what a fucking sack load of shit his company has produced with Artoon, making crap that is lower quality than even Sonic Team's worst efforts (though I will admit I have a soft spot for Blue Dragon, that is only because I like MistWalker).
I do not know how you can say SEGA is losing itself when all of the people you have named have only made the business equivalent of having explosive diarrhea and vomit at the same time in the past five years.
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Fuck you, Lumines was fun.
Also everything sucks and the west sucks and sega needs to make killer 7 part 2 and that will suck and suck suck suck KEEP IT HARD CORE.
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I'll not make out that everthing Capcom does it spot on , and not make out that Capcom have been Faultless. I'm making out they're one of the few Jp Corps with a clear direction , called it right on getting a Multi Platform, Multi Purpose game engine ready for its , right at the start of this gaming Generation, and have made brilliant use of Online.
Sure you can Highlight Dark Void, but was SEGA's Iron Man any better ?, was SEGA own update of Golden Axe, better than Bionic Commando ?.
No Ironman and Golden Axe were just as bad but what I mean is simply both Sega and Capcom have put out good and bad games this gen. Capcom handled this gen better then Sega but then again they handled it better then all 3rd party japanese companies. Capcom know how to capture the crowds with marketing and the frame work engine was a stroke of genius...
I would say Sega have still come a long way this gen.
I've never much liked DMC series after the 1st game, but DMC was a well made game , using some decent tech, and pleasing its fans. Lost Planet I thought was fab, stunning use of the Framework engine, inspired Art and design on the stages, and some great use of the Internet, Fighting it out on a stage made to look like the floors of Capcom offices, was just the icing on the cake. Just a Japanese company that seem to have truly got it this gen. To be fair I've also been very impressed with FromSoftware. Chromhounds was the most fun On-Live I had this generation, enjoyed Nina Blade more than most games, and thought Demon Souls to be amazing,and used the Internet in brand new ways .
I think a lot of people felt DMC4 really dropped the ball. I deffinitly did...
Lets not forget Capcom made the biggest mistake of their existance this gen, closing Clover... was a serious mistake that worked out very well for Sega.
I can but hope, SEGA is working hard on a full on Next Gen PSO, using a improved HedgeHog engine, and make Monster Hunter Wii, look like nothing. That AM#2 is bringing the likes of Border Break, VF 5 Final to the Home with massive new modes, GFX improvments and fully making use of Live. Maybe we'll get a Sonic 3D game , that floors people, for all the right reasons
I think some of these are likely, most unlikely would be BorderBreak so soon.
I can see VF5, PSO coming true...
As for a 3D Sonic... Well... we'll get one!
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But why did you mention Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry when they play nothing like Bayonetta at all? Just two pages ago you agreed with me that something that made SEGA so great in the 90s was because the developers made what they wanted to make and not copy the industry, or even themselves
Because Bay, DMC, and Ninja Gaiden plays very much like each other, and to make out otherwise is quite silly,sure there some differences, but they're very much the same games in the same gene . You know like Last Bronx looks and plays a little bit different from VF, but its much the same game inthe same Genre.
Try and name me one other game series by SEGA that plays exactly like Yakuza does
Shenmue Played very much like Yakuza. In combat terms Spikeout plays very much like Yakuza
Where is your argument? You are not even mentioning any of their games
Make a list only for you make fun off and Ridicule?. I make a list by all means , though I wonder what the Point .
I thought both GRAW games were brilliant, using an amazing In-game engine , great single player modes, and some of the best Multi player fun , I ever had on LIVE to date, Speaking of Multi Player there's Vegas, if not the best Co-Op LIVE game I played this Generation , and a Great single player game to boot , even the music score was incredible in that game imo .
I thought Assassin's Creed was truly breath taking and awe inspiring when it 1st came put , it also had a wonderful control scheme, that made so much just to walk, jump and Climb around, I very much enjoyed Prince of Persia (loved it arts style) , Currently very much enjoying Splinter Cell Con, and very much looking forward to the next instalment of GRAW. Also I thought the cell shading graphics in Naruto to be simply breath taking , and it wasn’t a bad game to boot.
Capcom, Well They're no Ubi, but they've created a true Multi purpose, multi task and multi platform engine, now in its 3rd gen is pushing some Incredible visuals in Lost Planet II, making full use of LIVE/PSN . The pervious LP is one of my all time fav games, the sequel improves on it , and ups the scale .
I enjoyed Dead Rising , even with its deeply flawed system , DMC IV was fun if a tad overrated . Street Fighter IV features some of the most breathtakingly Art and graphics I’ve seen in any fighter, never quite seen a visual style like it, and it’s a brilliant re-imagining of the series , and RE 5 a good game, and some of the best visuals I seen to date
I really hope you are joking... Have you seen their games lately?
Since Mizuguchi left SEGA he has made Lumines, Meteos, the first Ninety Nine Nights and Every Extend Extra. Do you know what all of these games have in common? They all fucking suck shit
Lumines was brilliant imo. N N Nights was a good game, hurt horribly but its save system and lack of check points . What have the Sonic Team made since the rest of the UGA game merged with them ?. Maybe Project Rub could be Consider a game UGA would have made in Art terms , but there’s little else.
Best for both Corps,if they joined back up imo.
The same is true with Naka, with such classics as Let's Tap, Let's Catch, 'Ivy the Kiwi?' and that iPhone game you touch a bear really fast so he stands up
At least they're new games, trying something different , and do look very Arty and a little Unique.
Do not get me started on Oshinima, what a fucking sack load of shit his company has produced with Artoon, making crap that is lower quality than even Sonic Team's worst efforts (though I will admit I have a soft spot for Blue Dragon, that is only because I like MistWalker)
Forget Oshinima-san , A far bigger lose to SEGA was losing Yoji Ishii imo, the man who unlike Naka or Oshinima-san should have been boss of Sonic Team. Then there's the loss of the brilliant programmer than was Takuya Matsumotom who did wonders at Sonic Team, never mind the like of the man that shaped the Art of Panzer Dragoon the one and only Manabu Kusunoki.
There huge losses to any corp, and just because its doesn't always work out with their new venture , should never take away or devalue what they did in the past.
I do not know how you can say SEGA is losing itself
I can say what I like, and imo SEGA is losing its self. What have those staff that remained produced in the last 5 years ? To most Sonic 06 and Unleashed was a joke, Nights JID not the best . Monkeyball games that plays and control worst than their Cube Counter parts, and endless sequels to Yakuza, using the same art and the same City, and hardly any improvement in animation, much less scope. Take out the pride of SEGA AM#2 , the brilliant Val (with its stunning engine and art) and Virtual Tennis III, and I haven't been impressed at with SEGA Japan this generation
I think a lot of people felt DMC4 really dropped the ball. I deffinitly did...
Lets not forget Capcom made the biggest mistake of their existance this gen, closing Clover... was a serious mistake that worked out very well for Sega.
I've never been much of a Fan of DMC (bar the 1st) I don't think it dropped the ball, more it was a sequel by number and offered nothing new . I feel the same about Yakuza sequels, at least DMC did use an impressive engine .
I think more a mistake than closing Clover, was closing down Smilebit and UGA. Smilebit were the best team at SEGA other than AM#2 imo (at the time) and UGA just one of the most artistic Teams I can ever remember. Still to this day REZ looks and plays Incredible
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Shenmue Played very much like Yakuza.
Kinda, but not really.
IMHO.
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Shenmue Played very much like Yakuza.
Kinda, but not really.
IMHO.
It was very Similar, though imho Yakuza featured a better written story and far better script. There's not many games, that 100% play like Dead Rising, but the basic concept has been done before.
What I liked about Yakuza , was it brought RPG's into the Modern era, and instead of boring point and click random battles , at least featured Real Time battles .
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Shenmue Played very much like Yakuza.
i am against this statement .
IMO both games plays totally different , not even close
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There's very similar games right down to being able to play Arcade games, or QTE.
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Technically GTA is like Yakuza, you play arcade games on both.
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I was going to respond to TA on a number of things, but it is obvious to me he never played any of the Yakuza games, so why should I believe everything else he has said?
Related:
[youtube:3s0ranca]U1E7Qrsyt1A[/youtube:3s0ranca]
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You want this myth of so called Hard Core gaming, or a gamers machine, then buy a 360. That's the console seen a true gamers machine in Japan (why the like of Cave support it) That the reason why the 360 boats the highest console to game ratio . What's SEGA done on the platform ?, next to nothing when it comes to exclusives . Where's this fab and unmatched Art in the like of Monkey Ball on the Wii, Yakuza on the PS3 , or Sonic on every platform ??
Are you serious? Where is it? How about why would it be there? Sega's output reflects the changes in the game market from last gen to now. Why is Sega management going to okay sequels to Rez, Jet, Shenmue, or Panzer or any other artful out of the norm Sega game when none of those games sold? None of those games were profitable. Monkey Ball, Yakuza, and Sonic are there because that is the only way for Sega to draw mainstream profits. The era of hardcore driven gaming is over. Everything now is marketing to mainstream driven, that is why Sega is what it is and why all the gems fans have been clamoring for sequels for the past decade haven't been released. When you accept that I'll congratulate you for catching up in understanding with what every Sega fan on a gaming message board clearly understood 10 years ago.
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Lets just make sure this debate doesnt turn into an argument... Just sayin'.
Keep it friendly.
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I was going to respond to TA on a number of things, but it is obvious to me he never played any of the Yakuza games, so why should I believe everything else he has said?
(http://http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/4585212944_1a38674685_b.jpg)
Because I own the games . Hello Shenmue 1 and II , hello Yakuza 1 and II .
Monkey Ball, Yakuza, and Sonic are there because that is the only way for Sega to draw mainstream profits
They're not doing a very good Job. SEGA consumer Teams are still losing money.
The era of hardcore driven gaming is over. Everything now is marketing to mainstream driven,
What drivel . There still plenty of games, that can sell well and are not what one would call Mainstream . Nina Gaiden or Bayoneta show this , and what Demon Souls, Heavy Rain is mainstream gaming ???.
Please stop with this hardcore nonsense. There was plenty of SEGA Developed Dreamcast games that were has mainstream or jumping in the bandwagon as they come .
Why is Sega management going to okay sequels to Rez, Jet, Shenmue, or Panzer or any other artful out of the norm Sega game when none of those games sold
If I was asking for sequels for those games, you would have a point . You better tell the good people on this board , there's no hope for a new Shenmue or Panzer
My Point is the old SEGA is dead, its now sold out to the casual games . the Artful, cuttting edge tech days are over . Thank you for proving my point, after all like you say its all about Mainstream :lol: .
Funny how the mainstream EA has taken far more risks this gen , and produced one of the Artful games in Mirror Edge.
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Brutal Legend is more Niche and hardcore than all the Yakuza games.
Discuss.
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Brutal Legend is more Niche and hardcore than all the Yakuza games.
Discuss.
Jack Black is known by at LEAST 12 people , SEGA had no , hand in the Development of That product & , , ELECTRONICARTS ae not Always up to the real GLORIOUS NIPPON standards of Goodness so you are wrong, hench u r an inidite . now Quit this pisstake and lean to Play good games like IM1 by SL . IM II is not Very good but , worth a Purchase
IMHO .
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Why is Sega management going to okay sequels to Rez, Jet, Shenmue, or Panzer or any other artful out of the norm Sega game when none of those games sold
If I was asking for sequels for those games, you would have a point . You better tell the good people on this board , there's no hope for a new Shenmue or Panzer
My Point is the old SEGA is dead, its now sold out to the casual games . the Artful, cuttting edge tech days are over . Thank you for proving my point, after all like you say its all about Mainstream :lol: .
Uh, that is exactly my point? Call it mainstream or casual, it's mass audience. It sold out because it had to go where it could find profits. . . the market shifted on them.
Jet Grind got screwed cuz it was overshadowed by the fuckin PS2 launch. Xbox launching the Halo generation screwed Orta, Future, and Shenmue II into obscurity and market irrelevancy. This is reality that all the Sega fans on message boards observed and lamented 10 years ago.
Why did Sonic Unleashed have werehog? Cuz the fuckin marketing department put it there. That's mainstream marketing of games, that's not a design choice. I really don't know what you and I disagree about? Is it that you blame the company and I blame the market?
Funny how the mainstream EA has taken far more risks this gen , and produced one of the Artful games in Mirror Edge.
It's not funny because it is only logical since they have more profits to take risks and commercial successful titles to offset the less successful ones. And Mirrors Edge bomba, right? My point proven again.
I actually think you and are close to agreeing if you would just make the connection that Sega management responded to changing market conditions as any company's management does. Sega got left out of this fuckin contemporary mainstream game marketing equation. Thank the two big KKKorporations for bring the damn industry to the unwashed masses, but don't worry because mainstream gaming, casual gaming, social gaming, all that bullshit is a fad in decline even if it lasted 10 years.
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but don't worry because mainstream gaming, casual gaming, social gaming, all that bullshit is a fad in decline even if it lasted 10 years.
Hardcore gaming is a fad. It was manufactured by big corporations to sell T-Shirts with controllers on them.
Not to mention that Jet Set Radio isn't even a real game, it's just a myth that's been spread through message boards. A game with rocket-skates? C'mon you didn't really fall for that did you?
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According to Linkedin SEGA America has 137 employees at the moment
http://www.linkedin.com/companies/391029 (http://www.linkedin.com/companies/391029)
don't know how accurate that is though
http://www.linkedin.com/companies/165911 (http://www.linkedin.com/companies/165911)
this one is SEGA Europe even though it just says SEGA...
says they have 380 employees.
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Xbox launching the Halo generation screwed Orta, Future, and Shenmue II into obscurity and market irrelevancy. This is reality that all the Sega fans on message boards observed and lamented 10 years ago.
Complete bullshit. If Halo did not exist, Panzer Dragoon Orta and Jet Set Radio Future would not have happened at all because the Xbox would have died almost instantly and SEGA would not have even bothered trying, and if they did they would have done significantly worse than they had because the market would have been so much smaller.
I think it is largely Microsoft's fault that Shenmue II was a failure, but that was only because they wanted the game to themselves, but I guess that does not explain it failing in regions like Japan. I guess they are just not hardcore enough over there.
Why did Sonic Unleashed have werehog? Cuz the fuckin marketing department put it there. That's mainstream marketing of games, that's not a design choice. I really don't know what you and I disagree about? Is it that you blame the company and I blame the market?
More bullshit. Stop making up crap and assuming because you do not like something it must be because "The market forced it!". Sonic Team said they made the werehog because they liked the idea, the director was a big fan of games like God of War. SEGA America and Europe literally begged them to change it, but they refused, and look what happened!
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Uh, that is exactly my point? Call it mainstream or casual, it's mass audience. It sold out because it had to go where it could find profits. . . the market shifted on them
Mainstream, You couldn't get more mainstream than the Mega Drive console. Fact facts, the DC was meant to appeal to the casual gamers, that's why the Pad only had 4 face buttons. 6 buttons was too Diehard for the casual gamers .
Jet Grind got screwed cuz it was overshadowed by the fuckin PS2 launch. Xbox launching the Halo generation screwed Orta, Future, and Shenmue II into obscurity and market irrelevancy. This is reality that all the Sega fans on message boards observed and lamented 10 years ago.
The DC just didn't perform well in Japan at the start, very early in, the sales were poor and software sales very poor. FSP were on the Saturn and PS you know, Quake, Duke, Doom were seen as big deals. Panzer Dragoon never helped SEGA fortunes in the West on its own systems, it was nothing to do with HALO at all :roll: . Shenmue II was a flop in Japan on the DC mate, not the best seller in Europe on the DC.
Why did Sonic Unleashed have werehog? Cuz the fuckin marketing department put it there. That's mainstream marketing of games, that's not a design choice
Becasue SONIC Team are trying to boost the game length, and its next to impossible to make a Sonic 3D with enough Huge levels, that Sonic can race through with-in min's, and have a game with 8 to 10 hrs of Playtime, remember that on adverage Sonic levels need to be 16 times the size of a Mario map to Compensate for the speed of Sonic (well if you believe Sonic Team) .
Sonic 1 was from the very start knocked for being too easy and too short , when is why even in the Mega Drive days , each sequel brought in new characters , extra modes , to try and compensate for the game length. Sonic Unleashed main troubles wasn't the Werehog stages, it was just a lack of polish, and piss poor Hub system imo .
It's not funny because it is only logical since they have more profits to take risks and commercial successful titles to offset the less successful one
EA been loosing money , but its Board has taken a Big Stand and risk and betting on quality and brand new IP turning the company fortunes Sticking with games and giving them another chance.
Bad Company wasn't quite the main deal, but EA stuck with it and the tech and made the Impressive sequel. Mirror's Edge and Dead Space didn't quite set the world alight , but EA is committed to sequels, and giving them 1 more chance to get established.
I so wished SEGA did the same with Val, give it was more chance, improve the Canvas Tech, and roll out a Multi Platform sequel hoping it would get established. Nope SEGA cut and run and produced a PSP version, which hasn't helped the game sell any better.
BTW, I think Mirrors Edge sold a million copies, more than Yakuza 3 or 4
Hardcore gaming is a fad. It was manufactured by big corporations to sell T-Shirts with controllers on them.
I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore . Is the 360 Hardcore, because its got plenty of CAVE shooters on it ?, Is the Wii Hardcore because its got Sin and Pun II or Madworld on it ?. Was the Mega Drive a Hardcore console ?, how can it be, when you've got Mickey Mouse , and Disney games on it
Hardcore is a bit of myth, and where some gamers love to make out they're so Hardcore, just to make them feel big.
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Brutal Legend is more Niche and hardcore than all the Yakuza games.
Discuss.
I think both are just games for the more serious gamer. To me there’s 2 different styles of gamers .
You have one set of gamers that make up your casuals gamers.. The ones that buy just a few games a year, and only play games for a couple of hours a month . Then you get the more serious, the dedicated gamer... The type that buys a few games a month , that plays games for more than a couple of hours a week.
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I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore
Easy, if the innermost center of a Console is highly resistant to force or pressure then it is 'Hard-Core'. If the center of a console is malleable, or otherwise reacts easily to outside pressures and forces it is only 'Soft-core'.
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I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore
Easy, if the innermost center of a Console is highly resistant to force or pressure then it is 'Hard-Core'. If the center of a console is malleable, or otherwise reacts easily to outside pressures and forces it is only 'Soft-core'.
Good , and what makes someone a Hardcore gamer ?
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I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore
Easy, if the innermost center of a Console is highly resistant to force or pressure then it is 'Hard-Core'. If the center of a console is malleable, or otherwise reacts easily to outside pressures and forces it is only 'Soft-core'.
Good , and what makes someone a Hardcore gamer ?
If the innermost center of a gamer is highly resistant to force or pressure then it is 'Hard-Core'. If the center of a gamer is malleable, or otherwise reacts easily to outside pressures and forces it is only 'Soft-core'.
As an example, lets say we have Gamer A and Gamer B.
Gamer A has a center made of Cast-Iron, and Gamer B has a center made out of Tapioca Pudding. Gamer A would be classed as a "Hard-Core Gamer" and Gamer B would be "Soft-Core".
Hope that helps!
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Sorry to break it to you all, but there is no such thing as "Hardcore" games. People can react to games how they wish.
I spend pretty much all of my life devoted to SEGA related stuff and the videogame industry in general, I feel this makes me reach the 'Hardcore' criteria. Well what if I told everyone my absolute favorite game from 2009 was Plants vs Zombies? I must totally be a stupid casual faggot now because I am ruining the industry or someshit, right?
The market is always changing, but the demand for 'Casual' games has always been the highest. In the early 90s SEGA made a shitload of Disney themed platformers, and most of them were incredible, some may even say masterpieces. These were made because people know and love characters like Donald Duck, so it is easy to market a game about someone like him. It made money and helped bring in fans who would also pick up titles like Sonic the Hedgehog and Golden Axe, so it all worked out for the best.
I just do not know what Eastside is going on about. Just because there are not more Rez games (which - Let's be honest, is best kept as a solo release, like NiGHTS should have been) does not mean SEGA does not care or that the industry or creativity as a whole is dying. Oh wait, Rez HD is one of the best selling games of all time on the Xbox Live Arcade, I guess your whole point blew up in your face just now.
I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore
Easy, if the innermost center of a Console is highly resistant to force or pressure then it is 'Hard-Core'. If the center of a console is malleable, or otherwise reacts easily to outside pressures and forces it is only 'Soft-core'.
Good , and what makes someone a Hardcore gamer ?
What to be a Hardcore gamer , one needs to play their Mega Drive in the nude , with a fully errect Penis. Oh man those were the HardCore days :roll:
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What to be a Hardcore gamer , one needs to play their Mega Drive in the nude , with a fully errect Penis. Oh man those were the HardCore days
So let me get this straight (pardon the Pun). A hardcore gamer is one that plays gamers with no underwear ,while being Sexually aroused . A softcore game is one that plays games in their Underwear, not sexually aroused .
. . Oh wait, Rez HD is one of the best selling games of all time on the Xbox Live Arcade, I guess your whole point blew up in your face just now.
Oh wait, Does that make 360 gamers Hardcore, ? does it show there is in fact market for REZ ?. Making another Levels for a REZ II, would be a easier update and make a sequel to me, than with NiGHTS.
These were made because people know and love characters like Donald Duck, so it is easy to market a game about someone like him. It made money and helped bring in fans who would also pick up titles like Sonic the Hedgehog and Golden Axe, so it all worked out for the best.
Yeah casual and mainstream gamer . The only reason the Saturn or DC are seen as hardcore, is because they were poor sellers, and failed to the get the Mainstream gamer. The PS2 is one of the best selling consoles ever, yet there plenty of Artful and what so could call hardcore games on that system, same for the PS and Mega Drive.
I spend pretty much all of my life devoted to SEGA related stuff and the videogame industry in general, I feel this makes me reach the 'Hardcore' criteria.
So many people could say they've backed SEGA most of their life. That doesn't make you hardcore, just a loyal fan imo. I know some that make out because they Import games, they're hardcore . Look at me man, I paid over £600 for a Import Saturn, I'm such a SEGA nut and Hardcore fan .
I imported my SEGA Saturn, simply because I enjoyed SEGA games and Hardware, and couldn't wait for the Pal dates .
Well what if I told everyone my absolute favorite game from 2009 was Plants vs Zombies?
Well mine was Ninja Blade. I think everyone will have their own GOTY
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TA, I was defending you in my whole post you know?
I do not think the amount of money one spends on games means they are a bigger fan than the last. In our case, I literally cannot spend as much as you would be able to for their products like you mentioned you had, so I do not think it is a fair comparison.
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Martin The Fat Ninja was let go.
: (
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We should snap him up before the Kartel gets him!
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More bullshit. Stop making up crap and assuming because you do not like something it must be because "The market forced it!". Sonic Team said they made the werehog because they liked the idea, the director was a big fan of games like God of War. SEGA America and Europe literally begged them to change it, but they refused, and look what happened!
Becasue SONIC Team are trying to boost the game length, and its next to impossible to make a Sonic 3D with enough Huge levels, that Sonic can race through with-in min's, and have a game with 8 to 10 hrs of Playtime, remember that on adverage Sonic levels need to be 16 times the size of a Mario map to Compensate for the speed of Sonic (well if you believe Sonic Team) .
Sonic 1 was from the very start knocked for being too easy and too short , when is why even in the Mega Drive days , each sequel brought in new characters , extra modes , to try and compensate for the game length. Sonic Unleashed main troubles wasn't the Werehog stages, it was just a lack of polish, and piss poor Hub system imo .
http://www.ripten.com/2008/07/19/e3-08- ... e-screens/ (http://www.ripten.com/2008/07/19/e3-08-preview-sonic-unleashed-e3-exclusive-trailer-in-game-screens/)
I asked SEGA what they thought of the reaction from both hardcore gamers and those new to Sonic. Sega said that they focus group tested the two game play versions with kids and received an overwhelmingly positive response. They also understood that the nighttime game play was a change from the traditional “pure speed” Genesis Sonic, but were hoping that hardcore fans would keep an open mind and give the new night time game play a chance before dismissing it.
There you go. . . werehog was a result of focus group testing on kids. That is called marketing making game design choices. It doesn't get more obvious than that. Face the facts.
Also, all the adolescent jibes aside, there is a difference between a hardcore gamer and a core mainstream gamer. Those are real marketing terms educate and get informed.
A game can be hardcore and still have mainstream appeal like in the case of Street Fighter. Super Mario Bros started as a hardcore game, if you don't believe it play SMB2 Famicom version and tell me that was for casuals or mainstreams. There is a difference between a mainstream hardcore game and a hardcore core mainstream game. . . MGS vs Halo.
Sega got screwed when gaming shifted from being hardcore centric to core mainstream centric. Sega never learned to make games that appealed to core mainstreams, that is why they are screwed now. The management doesn't want to risk the $30 to $40 million on a new franchise for core mainstreams that might not pan out.
I like to know what makes a game or console hardcore .
What designates a console hardcore, core mainstream, or casual is the intended target audience of the marketing focus and corresponding development focus. Of course Wii is a casual console. How the fuck would having a small percentage of its library being hardcore games designate it anything else but casual. If the majority of the focus is on casual then it is a casual console. Mega Drive like NES before it was a console that won great mainstream appeal yet the game design choices were in the hands of the game designers and not the marketing departments designating them gamer's machines rather than mainstreamers.
The DC just didn't perform well in Japan at the start, very early in, the sales were poor and software sales very poor. FSP were on the Saturn and PS you know, Quake, Duke, Doom were seen as big deals. Panzer Dragoon never helped SEGA fortunes in the West on its own systems, it was nothing to do with HALO at all :roll: . Shenmue II was a flop in Japan on the DC mate, not the best seller in Europe on the DC.
The DC didn't perform well in Japan because it was completely overshadowed by PS2 hype. PS1 had won Japan over in the previous generation. . .Japan was Playstation country. Quake, Duke, Doom back in their early days were selling to hardcore gaming audiences FPS didn't expand their demographics until later generations. I'm talking about Orta specifically, it like other Sega efforts were lost when Xbox got equated with Halo defining the audience for it. I don't get the Shenmue II comment? Yeah. . . like I said the market had shifted, that fits with what I'm telling you.
I so wished SEGA did the same with Val, give it was more chance, improve the Canvas Tech, and roll out a Multi Platform sequel hoping it would get established. Nope SEGA cut and run and produced a PSP version, which hasn't helped the game sell any better.
It didn't make the sales to justify that. That's why it went to PSP. In the West it was too niche and hardcore. . . just what I'm telling you.
I just do not know what Eastside is going on about. Just because there are not more Rez games (which - Let's be honest, is best kept as a solo release, like NiGHTS should have been) does not mean SEGA does not care or that the industry or creativity as a whole is dying. Oh wait, Rez HD is one of the best selling games of all time on the Xbox Live Arcade, I guess your whole point blew up in your face just now.
I've already gone over my thesis tirrelessly; that the game market shifted screwing Sega with PS2 and Xbox generation and Sega management isn't going to take the financial risk to bring out sequels or new IP's of anything traditionally artsy, out of the norm, or quirky trademark Sega. The management will approve crap that can sell to casual and mainstream audiences because that is where the profits are and then us hardcore fans that what old school Sonic, Skies, Shenmue II, Jet, etc, etc get fucked. So, fuck you, modern game audiences!
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I had assumed 'Shenmue IIx' failed because the Dreamcast already had it in JP and PAL regions, and most dedicated US fans imported the PAL version. By the time 'Shenmue IIx' released, it was old news and most fans only picked it up when it dropped in price.
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Sega got screwed when gaming shifted from being hardcore centric to core mainstream centric. Sega never learned to make games that appealed to core mainstreams, that is why they are screwed now. The management doesn't want to risk the $30 to $40 million on a new franchise for core mainstreams that might not pan out.
So true.
This is what made the Dreamcast not be the complete success it could have been in a market with a previous mentality.
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There you go. . . werehog was a result of focus group testing on kids. That is called marketing making game design choices. It doesn't get more obvious than that. Face the facts.
Or you can stop believing lies made by PR? These are the same people who said Sonic 3 and Knuckles would not fit on a Blu-Ray disc man, how stupid can you be to believe that shit?
Sonic Team readily admitted that the werehog was their idea and that SEGA America and Europe did not like it and wanted them to remove it. Of course I think the full story is that they wanted to appeal to more Japanese consumers as the genre does well there and Sonic has been doing horribly in that region for quite some time.
What you should have said was that Shadow's game was designed with the 12-14 year old demographic in mind. Oh wait, that sounds like the SEGA Club series on the Genesis... I guess that is where the whole 'Casual game' epidemic started. Fuck you, SEGA Pico! Burn in Hell, Busy Town of Richard Scary! You killed SEGA!
What designates a console hardcore, core mainstream, or casual is the intended target audience of the marketing focus and corresponding development focus. Of course Wii is a casual console. How the fuck would having a small percentage of its library being hardcore games designate it anything else but casual. If the majority of the focus is on casual then it is a casual console. Mega Drive like NES before it was a console that won great mainstream appeal yet the game design choices were in the hands of the game designers and not the marketing departments designating them gamer's machines rather than mainstreamers.
Except we live in a world where movie games have always been huge sellers, where the largest market has always been towards children, where developers have always reached out for other IPs to put in their games for them to sell better.
I so wished SEGA did the same with Val, give it was more chance, improve the Canvas Tech, and roll out a Multi Platform sequel hoping it would get established. Nope SEGA cut and run and produced a PSP version, which hasn't helped the game sell any better.
It didn't make the sales to justify that. That's why it went to PSP. In the West it was too niche and hardcore. . . just what I'm telling you.
Every person I ever met in real life who was a fan of Valkyria Chronicles was a mainstream weeaboo who have huge Naruto collections and the like. They also do not even give a shit about SEGA and usually only buy games published by Atlas. I have no idea how these people are more 'Hardcore' than people who excessively play games like Call of Duty or Madden. Did you know people actually have died from playing those games too long? Now try and name me one person who has died from playing Valkyria Chronicles too long. I doubt any exist, or ever will.
I've already gone over my thesis tirrelessly; that the game market shifted screwing Sega with PS2 and Xbox generation and Sega management isn't going to take the financial risk to bring out sequels or new IP's of anything traditionally artsy, out of the norm, or quirky trademark Sega. The management will approve crap that can sell to casual and mainstream audiences because that is where the profits are and then us hardcore fans that what old school Sonic, Skies, Shenmue II, Jet, etc, etc get fucked. So, fuck you, modern game audiences!
What 'Market shift' do you keep mentioning? How can you be so certain that just because some Dreamcast games failed that everything must have changed for the worse? Where is your proof that Jet Set Radio would have sold on the Saturn, the Genesis, the Master System or any platform ever? You have not given any and most likely have not even thought about this.
I will tell you the truth as to what has happened in the industry... The truth being that more original IPs in games now exist and are more profitable than ever. More games than ever support online features, whether it be leaderboards to compare scores with people all over the world or online multiplayer with dozens of people at a time. To me, the industry has never been as vibrant and open than it is now.
Of course, I will always prefer games from the 16-bit era the most. This does not make them better, this is just what I prefer. The anger you have towards the whole industry now is that you liked games back in the day more than you do now. Maybe you are just losing interest in the medium? Either way, you are taking this all far too seriously. Like come on man, how can you hate on videogames at all? Back when we were kids, it did not matter what a title was about, as long as we thought it was fun. THAT was what games were always supposed to be about!
The industry has not changed for the worse, you have just let your opinion run wild for too long within the past few years, making you think you are better and smarter than everyone. You are not. You are just some guy who complains that Jet Set Radio could have or should have been a bigger seller. It is just a damn game.
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I'm sorry to inform you, but After Burner, when it was out, was considered a 'casual' game due to how easy it was to pick up and play. Sort of how Space Invaders, Pac-man were as well.
Now they are hardcore cuz most of use grew up with them, but if a game comes out with the same principles, we all laugh at it and call it casual.
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You are just some guy who complains that Jet Set Radio could have or should have been a bigger seller. It is just a damn game.
:roll: Can we please stop this. If you guys knew ANYTHING about games you would know that 'Jet Set Radio' isn't real. It was an April Fool's joke in DCUK Magazine about 10 years ago and it just caught on in various forums and became a running joke. The game doesn't exist and never did, I can't believe you people fell for it. I mean really, you bought the whole thing about Cel Shading on fucking Dreamcast!? I thought you guys were smarter than that...
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There you go. . . werehog was a result of focus group testing on kids. That is called marketing making game design choices. It doesn't get more obvious than that. Face the facts
Please can we live in the real world. That is PR spin, and anyone that taken part in a focus group (and yes I have for SEGA, not Bull) need to know one thing . The questions are set out, to suit what is already being planned.
Like when asking what Retro games should put in a Retro pack,lets put in the Sonic games, then put in some unknown Mega Drive games that not many have heard much less played, knowing full which box will be most ticked (you then put in PR, we've listen to fans)
The Werehog was Sonic Japan idea, it was always going to be part of the game design. In fact, if were to ask real fans, and ask (with out a choice of set answers,) Most would say that only want to play as SONIC, and only want a SONIC game.
What designates a console hardcore, core mainstream, or casual is the intended target audience of the marketing focus and corresponding development focus. Of course Wii is a casual console. How the fuck would having a small percentage of its library being hardcore games designate it anything else but casual.
Here’s the deal, every console is made to sell as many games and as many systems as possible. You’re going to sit there and tell me, that because the 360 has one of highest console to game sold ratio's, it’s the most Hardcore console ever? . The PS3 , X-Box 360 is a gamers console , not different from the Saturn or Dreamcast.
Mega Drive like NES before it was a console that won great mainstream appeal yet the game design choices were in the hands of the game designers and not the marketing departments designating them gamer's machines rather than mainstreamers.
Those were in the days of 2D. The days when you needed just 6 people to make a game , less than 7 months of development time . No need for Licences cars , football teams be featured in your game . These days SEGA need official rights for After Burner in the Arcades, a team of 6 artists alone . Its an totally different era.
Development costs are he biggest blocks to risk taking this gen.
The DC didn't perform well in Japan because it was completely overshadowed by PS2 hype. PS1 had won Japan over in the previous generation. . .Japan was Playstation country
Yes we all know Japan is casual City.
Quake, Duke, Doom back in their early days were selling to hardcore gaming audiences FPS didn't expand their demographics until later generations
There is nothing Hardcore about the likes of Duke or Doom. They are a genre that does well in the West, like JRPG's do will in Japan . So developers will make a lot of them for the west, while a lot of Japan developers will make RPG's instead . What next, SEGA isn't hardcore because it jumped on the RPG bandwagon , with countless RPG's for the Saturn and DC .
I'm talking about Orta specifically, it like other Sega efforts were lost when Xbox got equated with Halo defining the audience for it. I don't get the Shenmue II comment? Yeah. . . like I said the market had shifted, that fits with what I'm telling you.
Orta came out long after HALO . It was a 3D shooter, a Genre that had limited appeal the world over, its not like 3D shooters were selling in massive number on the Saturn or PS even in Japan . Shenmue II failed on the DC, so one can't even begin to blame the X-Box for that , that's my point .
It didn't make the sales to justify that. That's why it went to PSP. In the West it was too niche and hardcore. . . just what I'm telling you.
Its Niche in Japan mate, and SRPG's can sell well in the West , they have sold well On PC's in the past. You could on the one hand say SEGA was simply mad to even make a SRPG for the next generation of consoles (when the market for them is limited, even in Japan) , or on the other, say they were mad to make it only for one system .
Sometimes a game takes time to get established. I don't think GTA , Monster Hunter were massive sellers at the start, took them a couple of sequels to really get established, Please stop this Hardcore 'Japan' nonsense.
When Japan has been for the most part, the market that who ever has Square and Enix making games on your console, wins the hardware battle (what do you think killed the Saturn in Japan?) . The Japanese can't get enough of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest , no different from the sheep that run out and buy the next HALO .
that the game market shifted screwing Sega with PS2 and Xbox generation and Sega management isn't going to take the financial risk to bring out sequels or new IP's of anything traditionally artsy, out of the norm, or quirky trademark Sega
I could make a massive quite insane list of Arty, risky PS2 titles that are out of the norm , Hello amplitude, Hello ICO/SOC, hello Mojob- Ribbon,Hello Fantavision, Katamari Damacy , Taiko Drum and God knows how many more.
Please top this nonsense that somehow only SEGA consoles were Hardware . They were only seen as Hardware core, because most of them failed to sell , end off
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Please can we live in the real world. That is PR spin, and anyone that taken part in a focus group (and yes I have for SEGA, not Bull) need to know one thing . The questions are set out, to suit what is already being planned.
Being planned by the marketing department. . .
The Werehog was Sonic Japan idea, it was always going to be part of the game design. In fact, if were to ask real fans, and ask (with out a choice of set answers,) Most would say that only want to play as SONIC, and only want a SONIC game.
So this was SoJ's random whim? Does that make sense? The game's major market is American kids they are just following design directives designated by the marketing department. Real fans? That's the point. Of course they are not interviewing real fans as those fans are very small audience compared to the millions of kids that they are targeting that aren't oldschool Sonic fans! Your the one that need to awaken to the real world that we are living in an era of focus group researched game design.
Here’s the deal, every console is made to sell as many games and as many systems as possible. You’re going to sit there and tell me, that because the 360 has one of highest console to game sold ratio's, it’s the most Hardcore console ever? . The PS3 , X-Box 360 is a gamers console , not different from the Saturn or Dreamcast.
Duh, your stating the obvious. . . The deal is that the market shifted and gaming as a niche industry evolved into a major mainstream pastime forever altering games. What does the tie ratio have to do with the content? 360's audience is very different from the one that played Saturn and DC, a much wider mainstream demographic spread.
Those were in the days of 2D. The days when you needed just 6 people to make a game , less than 7 months of development time . No need for Licences cars , football teams be featured in your game . These days SEGA need official rights for After Burner in the Arcades, a team of 6 artists alone . Its an totally different era.
Development costs are he biggest blocks to risk taking this gen.
And there steps in the marketing department designating the game to be designed to maximize mass appeal rather than the game designer's free artistic expression.
Orta came out long after HALO . It was a 3D shooter, a Genre that had limited appeal the world over, its not like 3D shooters were selling in massive number on the Saturn or PS even in Japan . Shenmue II failed on the DC, so one can't even begin to blame the X-Box for that , that's my point .
I'm talking about why Orta, Future, and Shenmue II didn't sell on Xbox. Early on a lot of Sega fans saw Xbox as the defacto "Sega" console, but Halo defined a new audience for Xbox that saw the Sega titles kicked to a tiny corner of obscurity.
I could make a massive quite insane list of Arty, risky PS2 titles that are out of the norm , Hello amplitude, Hello ICO/SOC, hello Mojob- Ribbon,Hello Fantavision, Katamari Damacy , Taiko Drum and God knows how many more.
Please top this nonsense that somehow only SEGA consoles were Hardware . They were only seen as Hardware core, because most of them failed to sell , end off
The number doesn't matter it's the proportion as in percentage of titles that are artsy and out of the norm. PS2 had a massive amount of software for it so the number of every kind of title on it is going to exceed DC. The fact is that DC featured more unique, risky IP's as the system's key titles than any other system out there.
Please wake up and join most of the informed gaming world that there was a major shift in the gaming market with the arrival of Sony and Microsoft. Those are giant corporations with a scope and focus beyond what Nintendo, Sony, NEC, and SNK did in the early days of gaming. It is only rational and logical to except this, you are the one living in a silly world where the gaming market never evolved.
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Or you can stop believing lies made by PR? These are the same people who said Sonic 3 and Knuckles would not fit on a Blu-Ray disc man, how stupid can you be to believe that shit?
Sonic Team readily admitted that the werehog was their idea and that SEGA America and Europe did not like it and wanted them to remove it. Of course I think the full story is that they wanted to appeal to more Japanese consumers as the genre does well there and Sonic has been doing horribly in that region for quite some time.
Wait your the one that believed that Sega of America begged them to take it out. That is the PR bullshit making it look like a game design decision when in fact it was marketing driven. Is it rational to believe they were trying to appeal to Japanese consumers when by far the largest market is American kids? It's not. Sonic Team is never going to say "we put it in there because marketing told us" and marketing is never going to say "it's not a game design decision, it's just there to sell to kids".
What you should have said was that Shadow's game was designed with the 12-14 year old demographic in mind.
There you go. . . another obvious piece of marketing researched game design.
Every person I ever met in real life who was a fan of Valkyria Chronicles was a mainstream weeaboo who have huge Naruto collections and the like. They also do not even give a shit about SEGA and usually only buy games published by Atlas. I have no idea how these people are more 'Hardcore' than people who excessively play games like Call of Duty or Madden.
The only point is that is an issue between niche and mass appeal, not whether it is more hardcore or not.
What 'Market shift' do you keep mentioning? How can you be so certain that just because some Dreamcast games failed that everything must have changed for the worse? Where is your proof that Jet Set Radio would have sold on the Saturn, the Genesis, the Master System or any platform ever? You have not given any and most likely have not even thought about this.
Gaming evolved from a niche industry to a major mainstream past time. Basically in the period from the late 90's to now. Thus lowering the art of gaming for the sake of mass appeal. . .
Of course, I will always prefer games from the 16-bit era the most. This does not make them better, this is just what I prefer. The anger you have towards the whole industry now is that you liked games back in the day more than you do now.
If you prefer the artistic games of the 16bit era than you are actually sharing my view that the games of the older era of greater artistic freedom were far superior to their modern commercially defined, mass audience counterparts. The anger I have is towards the wave of mass audiences that invaded a once niche industry forever lowering gaming.
Maybe you are just losing interest in the medium? Either way, you are taking this all far too seriously. Like come on man, how can you hate on videogames at all? Back when we were kids, it did not matter what a title was about, as long as we thought it was fun. THAT was what games were always supposed to be about!
The industry has not changed for the worse, you have just let your opinion run wild for too long within the past few years, making you think you are better and smarter than everyone. You are not. You are just some guy who complains that Jet Set Radio could have or should have been a bigger seller. It is just a damn game.
I will totally admit to you that I am losing interest in the medium. That is true. All games, including Sega. What I am trying to do is trying to spark a counter trend to the current mass-marketing domination of gaming. I am under no illusion this can be done by one person, maybe I'm just testing my skill to influence the opinions of a few people and see what can spread from there.
I would like the editorial in this site to become more "Sega" more edgy in order to try to foster appeal for this counter trend I'm talking about. Right now, game marketers rule gaming. Everyone under it is not a hardcore gamer but a hardcore game marketer's bitch! :afroman:
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Just to play the devils advocate but IGN and Gametrailers just shit all over Lost Planet 2...
both scored in the 6/10 range I think.
Capcom seem to be just as hit and miss as Sega.
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I'm sorry to inform you, but After Burner, when it was out, was considered a 'casual' game due to how easy it was to pick up and play. Sort of how Space Invaders, Pac-man were as well.
Now they are hardcore cuz most of use grew up with them, but if a game comes out with the same principles, we all laugh at it and call it casual.
Sorry to inform you. . .
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6245000.ht ... op;title;1 (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6245000.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1)
"There's a generation of people who grew up with a set of games like Centipede," Bach said. "They ---->look almost like casual, fun games today<----. At the time they were high-end, edgy games. Game Room is the idea of bringing that back to the market and bringing it to a very broad audience."
How old were you again when Space Invaders and Pac Man came out?
Okay. . .
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Wait your the one that believed that Sega of America begged them to take it out. That is the PR bullshit making it look like a game design decision when in fact it was marketing driven. Is it rational to believe they were trying to appeal to Japanese consumers when by far the largest market is American kids? It's not. Sonic Team is never going to say "we put it in there because marketing told us" and marketing is never going to say "it's not a game design decision, it's just there to sell to kids".
Uhhh, no. Sonic Team and SEGA Japan themselves even said both SEGA America and SEGA Europe wanted the werehog out as soon as they found out of it. SEGA America's new response to the matter is that children liked it. It is not technically lying, but they would have preferred it out. Sonic Unleashed was an attempt to recapture the hearts of everyone, all kinds of gamers, it failed. The next major release most likely will not have anything like the werehog at all.
I realize a lot of people hate SEGA America and that they have done a lot of stupid shit, but many say they do bad stuff just because they are assholes. This is stupid, look it up next time instead of assuming.
There you go. . . another obvious piece of marketing researched game design.
Except you completely skipped my topic about the Pico and Disney related games SEGA made in the 90s and 80s which completely breaks your argument.
Gaming evolved from a niche industry to a major mainstream past time. Basically in the period from the late 90's to now. Thus lowering the art of gaming for the sake of mass appeal. . .
Every medium will be able to grow, that is just progress.
However, saying art is being lowered to appeal to a wider audience is just not right. Paintings are still paintings, movies are still movies, comics are still comics, videogames are still videogames. Art is perceived in the eye of the beholder, and for one person (like yourself) to just feel they have an all-knowing presence of what is right and wrong is just... Well, wrong!
If you prefer the artistic games of the 16bit era than you are actually sharing my view that the games of the older era of greater artistic freedom were far superior to their modern commercially defined, mass audience counterparts. The anger I have is towards the wave of mass audiences that invaded a once niche industry forever lowering gaming.
No, I just like how incoherent games were back then, how it was impossible to tell what a digitized voice was saying, why when you smashed a trashcan on a dirty street a steaming, fully cooked turkey was waiting for you on a plate, or how everything in the damn world - Even basic appliances or the like - was out to get you to the point of hilarity. Seriously, you would never see a blimp level in a game now have it's doors open and close fast to try and suck you out of it, and if there is one, someone needs to point me in the direction of it!
I do not think any of that is art, it is just enjoyable for me because it is so weird and stupid. I like the soundboards and graphics of yesteryear as well, but you can still get indie games with styles like this anyways, and sometimes they are cheaper or even free! If anything with stuff like this, the industry is better than ever!
I will totally admit to you that I am losing interest in the medium. That is true. All games, including Sega. What I am trying to do is trying to spark a counter trend to the current mass-marketing domination of gaming. I am under no illusion this can be done by one person, maybe I'm just testing my skill to influence the opinions of a few people and see what can spread from there.
I would like the editorial in this site to become more "Sega" more edgy in order to try to foster appeal for this counter trend I'm talking about. Right now, game marketers rule gaming. Everyone under it is not a hardcore gamer but a hardcore game marketer's bitch! :afroman:
Well I am sorry to hear that, but it just sounds like you should be making your own games. I am on my way to develop and design some of my game ideas because I think I have cool concepts people will enjoy, and if they do not I will just try my best having fun with working on other kinds of games!
If it is not that, then maybe you just have the wrong hobby or something. Every post you make seems to be at least in a slightly negative outlook or mean-spirited look on other companies. It just does not seem like you are enjoying any of this.
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I would like the editorial in this site to become more "Sega" more edgy in order to try to foster appeal for this counter trend I'm talking about. Right now, game marketers rule gaming. Everyone under it is not a hardcore gamer but a hardcore game marketer's bitch! :afroman:
It's funny, because you are a bigger tool for 'game marketers' than anyone here. You're also hurting the industry much more than anyone here.
You don't even buy good games when they come along, you just ignore them and then wonder 'Why didn't they sell!?'.
Did you buy Tatsunoko vs Capcom, De Blob, Overkill, Madworld, Dead Space Extraction, Silent Hill Shattered Memories, Muramasa on Wii? No? Well then you're a part of the problem. You sure as hell bought the casual, mainstream Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing though didn't you? Great work killing the industry bro! Enjoying being a bitch to the marketing men?
Do you even try to play any games that aren't forced on you by the gaming press? Have you even played Zeno Clash for example? Probably not, and yet here is an independant made game with some bizarre gameplay and design, but you're too busy thinking about Call of Duty and Iron Man 2 instead.
Your idea of 'Edgy and hardcore' is just pissing and moaning about everything and anything, and ignoring good games so you can complain about ones you don't like instead. I would rather that SegaBits stayed very far away from that.
Sorry to be nasty, but you really are just being ridiculous about all this.
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I'm sorry to inform you, but After Burner, when it was out, was considered a 'casual' game due to how easy it was to pick up and play. Sort of how Space Invaders, Pac-man were as well.
Now they are hardcore cuz most of use grew up with them, but if a game comes out with the same principles, we all laugh at it and call it casual.
Sorry to inform you. . .
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6245000.ht ... op;title;1 (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6245000.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1)
"There's a generation of people who grew up with a set of games like Centipede," Bach said. "They ---->look almost like casual, fun games today<----. At the time they were high-end, edgy games. Game Room is the idea of bringing that back to the market and bringing it to a very broad audience."
How old were you again when Space Invaders and Pac Man came out?
Okay. . .
Look child, I was not talking about Centipede.
I was talking about Pac-Man and Tetris. :lol:
Though Edgy =/= hard core. Edgy means it was 'different' at the time. Nintendo's Wii Fit , believe it or not, is edgy. Exercise and video games? They do not go hand in hand. But they made it work.
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Martin The Fat Ninja was let go.
: (
Wait,what?
Damn it, I'm gonna miss him walking around Gamescom and E3 dressed up as a ninja. :cry:
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sounds like we got alot of whiners here
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sounds like we got alot of winners here
Fixed that for yah! :afroman: :P
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Alan Pritchard interview...
http://www.mcvuk.com/features/683/INTERVIEW-Sega (http://www.mcvuk.com/features/683/INTERVIEW-Sega)
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What does the tie ratio have to do with the content? 360's audience is very different from the one that played Saturn and DC, a much wider mainstream demographic spread.
Only because its sold better . It doesn't get any more wider or mainstream than the PS and PS2 era , And SEGA was a part of that hardware battle trying to chase the same gamers , just SEGA lost out.
So this was SoJ's random whim? Does that make sense? The game's major market is American kids they are just following design directives designated by the marketing department.
It was always meant to be a part of the game design, lets face it . You then make up a Questionnaire , with limited number of boxes to tick , and a set limit of questions . Like which MD games would rather see on XBLA SONIC or Last Battle.
So you know more or less the answer most people will give , before a box is ticked . Its just basic good PR.
And there steps in the marketing department designating the game to be designed to maximize mass appeal rather than the game designer's free artistic expression
The trouble is the cost of games development . Games now cost 10 to 20 million plus . Not many developers will risk that sort of money on a Arty Game or new IP , with out being pretty sure it will pay off. Its not just down to a new breed of gamer , its more because games cost so much , and need so many people to make these days . That what's killing risk taking .
I'm talking about why Orta, Future, and Shenmue II didn't sell on Xbox. Early on a lot of Sega fans saw Xbox as the defacto "Sega" console, but Halo defined a new audience for Xbox that saw the Sega titles kicked to a tiny corner of obscurity
X-Box was the best console to buy if you were a SEGA fan. HALO was a launch time , it was a In-House title MS was always going to push that game . Other non MS IP sold well on the X-Box . Splinter Cell plays noting like HALO or is a FPS , and came out after HALO. It sold well . SEGA core gaming audience wasn't there for the Dreamcast mate, nothing to do with MS .
The fact is that DC featured more unique, risky IP's as the system's key titles than any other system out there.
That is wrong mate , There's a million and one new and risky IP on systems like the PS or PS2 . I mean would couldn't get much more risk taking or Arty style of games than the likes of Vib ribbon or Ore No Ryori , or what about the like of ICO or SOC for the PS2 .
Please wake up and join most of the informed gaming world that there was a major shift in the gaming market with the arrival of Sony and Microsoft. Those are giant corporations with a scope and focus beyond what Nintendo, Sony, NEC, and SNK did in the early days of gaming. It is only rational and logical to except this, you are the one living in a silly world where the gaming market never evolved.
You'e having a laugh , For starters NCL and NEC are massive corps . In my view SONY and MS have done more for gaming the past 10 years , than any of the drivel that's come out of NCL . Most of SEGA issues were/are of its own making . SEGA screwed up the 32bit battle, and it never recovered from that sadly
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hi TA, good to hear from you. . .thanks for the allstar bump.
What does the tie ratio have to do with the content? 360's audience is very different from the one that played Saturn and DC, a much wider mainstream demographic spread.
Only because its sold better . It doesn't get any more wider or mainstream than the PS and PS2 era , And SEGA was a part of that hardware battle trying to chase the same gamers , just SEGA lost out.
hmm, I just read an article blaming the "PS2 generation" for the death of arcades. . . I'm going to try to find that article for you and link it here (eventually, I'm on vacation), it reads like one of my rants.
It was always meant to be a part of the game design, lets face it . You then make up a Questionnaire , with limited number of boxes to tick , and a set limit of questions . Like which MD games would rather see on XBLA SONIC or Last Battle.
So you know more or less the answer most people will give , before a box is ticked . Its just basic good PR.
I went back and read some Sonic Unleashed Sonic Team interviews on IGN and elsewhere at the time of the game's release. They were targeting western audiences primarily and younger players. . .they talked about working very closely with the western marketing teams. . .they just designed the game with elements to appeal to those audiences. They probably felt western casuals wanted to see more traditional platforming levels than the more 'arcadey' speed and rails Sonic.
The trouble is the cost of games development . Games now cost 10 to 20 million plus . Not many developers will risk that sort of money on a Arty Game or new IP , with out being pretty sure it will pay off. Its not just down to a new breed of gamer , its more because games cost so much , and need so many people to make these days . That what's killing risk taking .
I don't disagree, but I would rather see more SFIV like titles that are gameplay-centric, hardcore with mainstream appeal, don't cost $50 million and are profitable for the publishers.
X-Box was the best console to buy if you were a SEGA fan. HALO was a launch time , it was a In-House title MS was always going to push that game . Other non MS IP sold well on the X-Box . Splinter Cell plays noting like HALO or is a FPS , and came out after HALO. It sold well . SEGA core gaming audience wasn't there for the Dreamcast mate, nothing to do with MS .
Did you mean DC or Xbox? Halo was audience defining. Xbox became the fps machine. . . Splinter Cell-western gun game, close enough. I don't disagree with a lot of your points but you just don't budge on the fact that there was an audience change or shift and it didn't exactly jibe with what Sega had been in the past.
The fact is that DC featured more unique, risky IP's as the system's key titles than any other system out there.
That is wrong mate , There's a million and one new and risky IP on systems like the PS or PS2 . I mean would couldn't get much more risk taking or Arty style of games than the likes of Vib ribbon or Ore No Ryori , or what about the like of ICO or SOC for the PS2 .
No, dude. I'm talking Sega's launch line-up and key titles throughout its life, compare that to Tekken, Ridge Racer and other more mainstream stuff that PS2 launched with. Don't make this a quantity argument because PS2 wins in every regard in terms of quantity over DC.
Those million and one new IP's weren't launch titles right? And If you make a Top 10 list of key PS2 title they wouldn't be in them, right? If you made a DC top 10 it would have Shenmue, Rez, Jet, Seaman etc a much higher proportion of risky IP's in its launch and key title list.
You'e having a laugh , For starters NCL and NEC are massive corps . In my view SONY and MS have done more for gaming the past 10 years , than any of the drivel that's come out of NCL . Most of SEGA issues were/are of its own making . SEGA screwed up the 32bit battle, and it never recovered from that sadly
Well, Sony was much larger than NCL back in 94 when it entered the show. . .
Oh god, gag me. . ."SONY AND MS DONE MORE FOR GAMING!?" Blah you are a corporate gaming fanboy!
TA,you are contradiction. . .
You are the guy wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt espousing the virtues of capitalism?!
Team Andromeda was a casualty of modern mainstream gaming and the new audiences that festered to it and you defend the Korporations that relegated her to a faded memory of more hardcore days!
I'll post that link to the article I'm talking about here eventually. . .
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TA,you are contradiction. . .
You are the guy wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt espousing the virtues of capitalism?!
Funny that you would call TA a contradiction, when you are the guy who complains about casual games all the time, and then buys Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing on day one. And complains about hollwood/movie styled games, but loves the Yakuza series.
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TA,you are contradiction. . .
You are the guy wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt espousing the virtues of capitalism?!
Funny that you would call TA a contradiction, when you are the guy who complains about casual games all the time, and then buys Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing on day one. And complains about hollwood/movie styled games, but loves the Yakuza series.
SASR is just a casual title with a Sega tribute skin, but I don't think it is contradictory for a Sega fan to be suckered in by it? Were you here when I referred to it as Korporate Kasual Kart?
Yakuza is cinematic but it is not hollywood. It just feels Sega. I had Daytona running on a monitor in the same room and you could see a lot of the same color gradients and hues being used in Yakuza, a Nagoshi trademark? Maybe my imagination, but I just love that stuff.
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hmm, I just read an article blaming the "PS2 generation" for the death of arcades. . . I'm going to try to find that article for you and link it here (eventually, I'm on vacation), it reads like one of my rants.
Just because someone written a article blaming the PS2 for everything doesn't mean much to me. Imo 3D killed the Arcades, the cost of those Arcade boards meant an end to 10 pence or 50 pence plays, which for me killed the Arcades . Also when machines like the Dreamcast could play Arcade Perfect or in most cases Arcade better ports , what was the point in most going to the Arcades .
I'm sorry to say , you can not blame SONY for that .
They probably felt western casuals wanted to see more traditional platforming levels than the more 'arcadey' speed and rails Sonic.
I think Sonic Team are looking for ways to fix Sonic game length. The speed Sonic through levels is way shorter than a Mario level , its a Huge problem for the team . I remember a interview with Sonic Team Japan with Sonic Adventure, saying that one of the biggest problems for the Team , wasn't the New hardware, but it was making 3D Maps big enough to accommodate SONIC speed. Saying that on average a Sonic Map needed to be at least 8 t0 16 times the size of the typical Mario level .
but I would rather see more SFIV like titles that are gameplay-centric, hardcore with mainstream appeal, don't cost $50 million and are profitable for the publishers
I agree, but sadly gamers demand Big productions and hours of gameplay . This was happing with SEGA own supporters , they were happy with Straight ST-V or NA@MI ports , but wanted extra content and levels .
Did you mean DC or Xbox? Halo was audience defining. Xbox became the fps machine.
X-Box was just a console that at last could handle a FPS every bit as good as a PC, Plus it was an amazing game to boot. You look over how hard SEGA it's self used FPS to push its machines. SEGA made a massive deal over Duke Nukem , Quake coming to the Saturn , a massive Play with Quake III on the DC , and who knows how much better the DC could have sold, if Half-Life had met its intended date for the DC .
No, dude. I'm talking Sega's launch line-up and key titles throughout its life, compare that to Tekken, Ridge Racer and other more mainstream stuff that PS2 launched with
Tekken and VF were both launch tiles, they're both VS Fighters . SEGA launched the DC with VF 3 (mainstream title in Japan) a licensed based Godzilla game (mainstream) . I guess Pen Pen Tri was way out there , but there again Fantavision wasn't your typical launch game
Those million and one new IP's weren't launch titles right? And If you make a Top 10 list of key PS2 title they wouldn't be in them, right? If you made a DC top 10 it would have Shenmue, Rez, Jet, Seaman etc a much higher proportion of risky IP's in its launch and key title list.
Seaman and the likes of REZ are were on on the PS2. If I was to make a list of my top PS2 titles, they would be a lot of risky , and not your typical games (or great sellers) it would be made up of the likes of Gradius V, ICO, Shadow Of the Colossus, Yakuza I, Persona IV, Ibara.
Like I said there is load of Risky and Arty games for the PS2 .
Well, Sony was much larger than NCL back in 94 when it entered the show
And NCL were always much larger than SEGA, through the 8 bit, 16 bit & 32bit years. Never stopped SEGA from outclassing NCL through most of those years . And its one thing to have cash in the bank its quite another to know what it takes to make a console and lanuch one , ask Panasonic -and in money and size terms the Matsushita make SONY look small fry. Even MS will more money in the bank that most Counties, lost out with its 1st battle in the console market .
Team Andromeda was a casualty of modern mainstream gaming and the new audiences that festered to
Try TA was a casualty of SEGA inpet handling of the 32bit Battle , A Battle which SEGA lost badly. Nothing more , its wasn't SONY that killed TA it was SEGA, after poor sales of Saga . Saga which was yet another Japanese RPG, no different from the endless FPS in the west . Only with with Half-Life , Saga was in another league
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hi TA, good to hear from you. . .thanks for the allstar bump.
What does the tie ratio have to do with the content? 360's audience is very different from the one that played Saturn and DC, a much wider mainstream demographic spread.
Only because its sold better . It doesn't get any more wider or mainstream than the PS and PS2 era , And SEGA was a part of that hardware battle trying to chase the same gamers , just SEGA lost out.
hmm, I just read an article blaming the "PS2 generation" for the death of arcades. . . I'm going to try to find that article for you and link it here (eventually, I'm on vacation), it reads like one of my rants.
It was always meant to be a part of the game design, lets face it . You then make up a Questionnaire , with limited number of boxes to tick , and a set limit of questions . Like which MD games would rather see on XBLA SONIC or Last Battle.
So you know more or less the answer most people will give , before a box is ticked . Its just basic good PR.
I went back and read some Sonic Unleashed Sonic Team interviews on IGN and elsewhere at the time of the game's release. They were targeting western audiences primarily and younger players. . .they talked about working very closely with the western marketing teams. . .they just designed the game with elements to appeal to those audiences. They probably felt western casuals wanted to see more traditional platforming levels than the more 'arcadey' speed and rails Sonic.
The trouble is the cost of games development . Games now cost 10 to 20 million plus . Not many developers will risk that sort of money on a Arty Game or new IP , with out being pretty sure it will pay off. Its not just down to a new breed of gamer , its more because games cost so much , and need so many people to make these days . That what's killing risk taking .
I don't disagree, but I would rather see more SFIV like titles that are gameplay-centric, hardcore with mainstream appeal, don't cost $50 million and are profitable for the publishers.
X-Box was the best console to buy if you were a SEGA fan. HALO was a launch time , it was a In-House title MS was always going to push that game . Other non MS IP sold well on the X-Box . Splinter Cell plays noting like HALO or is a FPS , and came out after HALO. It sold well . SEGA core gaming audience wasn't there for the Dreamcast mate, nothing to do with MS .
Did you mean DC or Xbox? Halo was audience defining. Xbox became the fps machine. . . Splinter Cell-western gun game, close enough. I don't disagree with a lot of your points but you just don't budge on the fact that there was an audience change or shift and it didn't exactly jibe with what Sega had been in the past.
The fact is that DC featured more unique, risky IP's as the system's key titles than any other system out there.
That is wrong mate , There's a million and one new and risky IP on systems like the PS or PS2 . I mean would couldn't get much more risk taking or Arty style of games than the likes of Vib ribbon or Ore No Ryori , or what about the like of ICO or SOC for the PS2 .
No, dude. I'm talking Sega's launch line-up and key titles throughout its life, compare that to Tekken, Ridge Racer and other more mainstream stuff that PS2 launched with. Don't make this a quantity argument because PS2 wins in every regard in terms of quantity over DC.
Those million and one new IP's weren't launch titles right? And If you make a Top 10 list of key PS2 title they wouldn't be in them, right? If you made a DC top 10 it would have Shenmue, Rez, Jet, Seaman etc a much higher proportion of risky IP's in its launch and key title list.
You'e having a laugh , For starters NCL and NEC are massive corps . In my view SONY and MS have done more for gaming the past 10 years , than any of the drivel that's come out of NCL . Most of SEGA issues were/are of its own making . SEGA screwed up the 32bit battle, and it never recovered from that sadly
Well, Sony was much larger than NCL back in 94 when it entered the show. . .
Oh god, gag me. . ."SONY AND MS DONE MORE FOR GAMING!?" Blah you are a corporate gaming fanboy!
TA,you are contradiction. . .
You are the guy wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt espousing the virtues of capitalism?!
Team Andromeda was a casualty of modern mainstream gaming and the new audiences that festered to it and you defend the Korporations that relegated her to a faded memory of more hardcore days!
I'll post that link to the article I'm talking about here eventually. . .
You're probably right on that front. Nintendo is doing the same thing with the Wii on what they did with the original NES system. They only went "hardcore" or more game driven during the SNES and N64 eras and that was really down to the intense competition they had in those respective eras. What they did with the Wii is simply not directly compete for the same audience that Ms and Sony were fighting over and that gamble worked. Probably more than they'd hoped. People are blinded by nostalgia if they actually think nintendo actually went for gamers from the beginning.
As for Sony and Ms, yes they did ruin gaming in a lot of ways but that 's really down to Sony more than MS. It always makes me laugh how certain people defend sony being a gaming machine when Sony went out of their way to market the PS2 and PS3 as being an entertainment system rather than a pure gaming system. Even MS did the same. That's the main reason the DC wins in that department because it was a pure gaming machine driven by games. Whatever you think of the Wii or nintendo, no one can't say it isn't a pure gaming system, IE it doesn't play DVD's CD's etc. It does what its supposed to do, play games. The debate is whether the audience it has garnered care enough about games enough and that's where the debate should actually lie in terms of that. And like the PS2 horde before it that IMHO is a resounding no.
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As for Sony and Ms, yes they did ruin gaming in a lot of ways but that 's really down to Sony more than MS. It always makes me laugh how certain people defend sony being a gaming machine when Sony went out of their way to market the PS2 and PS3 as being an entertainment system rather than a pure gaming system. Even MS did the same. That's the main reason the DC wins in that department because it was a pure gaming machine driven by games
I think SEGA also played on the all in 1 entrainment system with its own systems , especially the Saturn, but I also remember SEGA playing on how the Dreamcast was a cheap way to gain access to the Internet , rather than buying a PC. SEGA also had all these Huge plans for the DC , with plans for a MP3 VMU , right down to a deal with Swatch watches , and being able to order Cinema tickets through ones DC .
No doubt SONY made a big play with the PS2 being able to play DVD's , but then how can blame them , SEGA original Mega CD advertising made a play that after playing a game , one could always put in a Music CD, SOA even included CD&G discs with the SEGA. The fact that one can't look over is SONY In-House commitment is bigger than either MS or NCL, That to me is sure sign SONY is serious about games . I think people look over how many Games SONY In-House teams have pumped out over the years, most of which they'll never get any credit for, In-House wise SONY Studios produced more than most .
Whatever you think of the Wii or nintendo, no one can't say it isn't a pure gaming system, IE it doesn't play DVD's CD's etc.
Didn't people say the same with the Cube ? Is the Wii and Cube more of a Games machine than even the DC , because they don't play Music CD ? . Imo the Wii is the lamest gaming machine of this Generation, with the so called Multi Media machines that are the PS3 and 360 offering a far better gaming experience and line up, and MS and SONY pushing out more In-House or Published games, than NCL.
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TA is the only one making sense. You can go ahead and pit 'Sony' into this whole 'IT ONLY PUBLISHES MAINSTREAM TITLES', but you are obviously not seeing the big picture. In the end of the day Sony does make mainstream titles to sell systems, all publishers do. SEGA does it with Sonic and Yakuza (Japanese mainstream), Sony does it with GT series and Uncharted.
Though Sony still publishes niche games like Pixel Junk series, ICO, Shadow of Colossus, Folklore (excellent game), Demon's Soul (Harder than hardcore), Patapon, The Last Guardian, and even LocoRoco.
People also give Sony shit for 'doing bluray to help Sony pictures etc etc', so what? I wish SEGA would be more unified. I wish they would get SEGA toys to make pre-order items for their games, etc etc. Would be pretty cool.
WUTEVE.
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TA is the only one making sense. You can go ahead and pit 'Sony' into this whole 'IT ONLY PUBLISHES MAINSTREAM TITLES', but you are obviously not seeing the big picture. In the end of the day Sony does make mainstream titles to sell systems, all publishers do. SEGA does it with Sonic and Yakuza (Japanese mainstream), Sony does it with GT series and Uncharted.
Though Sony still publishes niche games like Pixel Junk series, ICO, Shadow of Colossus, Folklore (excellent game), Demon's Soul (Harder than hardcore), Patapon, The Last Guardian, and even LocoRoco.
People also give Sony shit for 'doing bluray to help Sony pictures etc etc', so what? I wish SEGA would be more unified. I wish they would get SEGA toys to make pre-order items for their games, etc etc. Would be pretty cool.
WUTEVE.
Thank you , I would admit I was one of those that would slam SONY for anything back inthe PS2 days, but that started to change the day I got ICO and a PS2 . I started to wake up and respect some of the efforts SONY were putting into their In-House games, or ones Published by SONY, and started to play some of the PS games, that I missed out on.
People go niche games it didn't get any more niche than the like of Vib ribbon or Ore No Ryori. Ore No Ryori is just sheer Japanese Madness, and one of the most fun games I have ever had the Pleasure to play . ICO/SOC are SONY's very own Panzer Dragoon games, right down to both games having their own spoken language, and being seen as ART games; Echochrome is a puzzle game quite unlike any other , and The Last Guardian the type of game I wish SEGA could make these days .
People seriously need to get over this SONY is only mainstream, and is to blame for everything wrong with SEGA. Its just not fair or right. SONY In-House commitment to game is right up there with SEGA at the height of the Saturn and DC era.
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I agree, though Sony's talking heads during the PS2 era was bad. I just read a interview with Rob Dyer. Its long, but he talks about how Sony has 'agents' to help small developers make "PS Mini" games and help them 'grow' to full PSN titles. Let them keep their IPs.
This is a big change for Sony:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4 ... s_rob_.php (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4709/the_sony_situation_sceas_rob_.php)
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Just because someone written a article blaming the PS2 for everything doesn't mean much to me. Imo 3D killed the Arcades, the cost of those Arcade boards meant an end to 10 pence or 50 pence plays, which for me killed the Arcades . Also when machines like the Dreamcast could play Arcade Perfect or in most cases Arcade better ports , what was the point in most going to the Arcades .
I'm sorry to say , you can not blame SONY for that .
Well no doubt that was a factor. .3D. On the other hand, Saturn was going to be a 2D powerhouse until PSX forced Sega's hand into console 3D. That is something to consider. Playstation certainly upped the hardware arms race making it harder for arcades to stay ahead of consoles, you will agree. Going to find that article.
X-Box was just a console that at last could handle a FPS every bit as good as a PC, Plus it was an amazing game to boot. You look over how hard SEGA it's self used FPS to push its machines. SEGA made a massive deal over Duke Nukem , Quake coming to the Saturn , a massive Play with Quake III on the DC , and who knows how much better the DC could have sold, if Half-Life had met its intended date for the DC .
But why then didn't Saturn and DC become the FPS machines of their time? Sega catered to a different audience primarily, MS/XBOX/FPS and the new Halo audiences, on the other hand, went hand and hand.
Try TA was a casualty of SEGA inpet handling of the 32bit Battle , A Battle which SEGA lost badly. Nothing more , its wasn't SONY that killed TA it was SEGA, after poor sales of Saga . Saga which was yet another Japanese RPG, no different from the endless FPS in the west . Only with with Half-Life , Saga was in another league
Doesn't Sony get any credit for dooming Saturn? Saturn was more hardcore and less mainstream than PS1. Right there you can see the beginning of an audience shift.
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You're probably right on that front. Nintendo is doing the same thing with the Wii on what they did with the original NES system. They only went "hardcore" or more game driven during the SNES and N64 eras and that was really down to the intense competition they had in those respective eras. What they did with the Wii is simply not directly compete for the same audience that Ms and Sony were fighting over and that gamble worked. Probably more than they'd hoped. People are blinded by nostalgia if they actually think nintendo actually went for gamers from the beginning.
As for Sony and Ms, yes they did ruin gaming in a lot of ways but that 's really down to Sony more than MS. It always makes me laugh how certain people defend sony being a gaming machine when Sony went out of their way to market the PS2 and PS3 as being an entertainment system rather than a pure gaming system. Even MS did the same. That's the main reason the DC wins in that department because it was a pure gaming machine driven by games. Whatever you think of the Wii or nintendo, no one can't say it isn't a pure gaming system, IE it doesn't play DVD's CD's etc. It does what its supposed to do, play games. The debate is whether the audience it has garnered care enough about games enough and that's where the debate should actually lie in terms of that. And like the PS2 horde before it that IMHO is a resounding no.
Thanks. You're absolutely right. I saw that Kaz Hirai PS2 lauch quote recently saying that PS2 was "the future of entertainment" referring to not just gaming. But don't tell TA that cuz it doesn't jibe with his theory of a gaming market that never evolved and let's not kid ourselves that the PS2 launch hype was as much or more about DVD than games. Or that PS2 sold as a DVD player first when the launch titles were too few in number and quality against DC's awesome line-up. But none of that matters to, TA.
DC was a pure game machine despite what other secondary functions Sega tacked onto the packaging of the console. That's why DC is often referred to, correctly, as the last hardcore game machine.
Wii is a fucking piece of shit not even worth mentioning in a discussion like this, but don't forget that it is an exercise machine with no gaming functions for a lot of overweight women.
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Sony is not to blame for another consoles failure,that is called denial my friend. Sony's console was not that mainstream till 1998, a few years after, after Saturn was pronounced dead.
SEGA America not believing in the Saturn, launching their own add-ons for Genesis and not releasing Japanese software because they did not believe it would sell in the west and if they did it was in limited quantity.
SEGA also saying the Saturn was dead did not help, including the hard to develop architect. High price etc.
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I think SEGA also played on the all in 1 entrainment system with its own systems , especially the Saturn, but I also remember SEGA playing on how the Dreamcast was a cheap way to gain access to the Internet , rather than buying a PC. SEGA also had all these Huge plans for the DC , with plans for a MP3 VMU , right down to a deal with Swatch watches , and being able to order Cinema tickets through ones DC .
Your correct in recollecting that but it was all gimmicky bullshit. There was absolutely no allusion by Sega that DC was a game machine first and only marketed to gamers first and only. Totally different story with PS2 and DVD.
No doubt SONY made a big play with the PS2 being able to play DVD's , but then how can blame them , SEGA original Mega CD advertising made a play that after playing a game , one could always put in a Music CD, SOA even included CD&G discs with the SEGA. The fact that one can't look over is SONY In-House commitment is bigger than either MS or NCL, That to me is sure sign SONY is serious about games . I think people look over how many Games SONY In-House teams have pumped out over the years, most of which they'll never get any credit for, In-House wise SONY Studios produced more than most .
I don't care how serious you think Sony is about games, it is all about money in the end and they want games that will fill DVD and blu-ray discs and justify HD tv's. They are not a game company first and they don't give a shit about a game design philosophy that evolves games in a manner that isn't consistent with the goals of selling their consumer electronic equipment. Sony isn't really a game maker.. Sony in-house games primary function is to bring in the sale for the tv and disc divisions. Lol, at the way MGS4 just cinema spammed itself to hell to justify it being bluray only.
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Sony is not to blame for another consoles failure,that is called denial my friend. Sony's console was not that mainstream till 1998, a few years after, after Saturn was pronounced dead.
No, I'm not a Sega loyalist or fanboy that is trying to conceal Sega's fuck-ups away. I knew Sega and eventually Nintendo were fucked the day Sony entered into the market. . .much larger more powerful, more sophisticated marketing and better brand. Sony picked up the torch from MD being the hip and cool machine (that Sega dropped by its own fuck-ups) and redefined what was cool in gaming at the same time taking it into a new direction beginning to cater to a new audience.
We just might have had a generation that was SNES-CD and Saturn as 2D powerhouses but Sony's arrival meant that would not happen.
SEGA America not believing in the Saturn, launching their own add-ons for Genesis and not releasing Japanese software because they did not believe it would sell in the west and if they did it was in limited quantity.
SEGA also saying the Saturn was dead did not help, including the hard to develop architect. High price etc.
Of course those were all factors, but if Sony wasn't there it would have done a hell of a lot better than it did and Sega would have been in better financial health. Sony entering gaming was just a natural consequence of industry growth. It's not like I'm saying things could have been otherwise. Sony was there to take the niche industry into the mainstream and it totally succeeded but at a cost to those who favored the values of the earlier days. Sega could have done everything right going back to 32X and Sega CD, not fucking up Saturn, etc and it would still be out of the business today because it would have been the little guy kicked to the curb by the giants. That's been my point all along.
Are you saying Sega would have a console today had it not screwed everything up? No way!
Would Sega being making FPS's or would a fantasy mainstream audience emerge that would give a fart about its quirky style and niche properties?
lol.
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You are saying "If there was no competition..." they still would have not sold consoles. SEGA America killed Saturn. Playstation's 'momentum' started after its death. SEGA America dropped the ball and let Sony drive itself into the gaming market.
SEGA had brand name and they ruined it. Not Sony. You can't hate on Sony for trying to make its own product. Saturn didn't have enough software released here to sell well.
SEGA Saturn was a hardcore gaming platform.....
IN Japan. Not America.
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You are saying "If there was no competition..." they still would have not sold consoles. SEGA America killed Saturn. Playstation's 'momentum' started after its death. SEGA America dropped the ball and let Sony drive itself into the gaming market.
Not sure where you are getting this, Sony and Playstation outclassed Sega and Saturn from day one. Playstation owned the market before Saturn's death.
SEGA had brand name and they ruined it. Not Sony. You can't hate on Sony for trying to make its own product. Saturn didn't have enough software released here to sell well.
I'm gonna give up on this cuz I'm tired...Sony took what was niche to the masses to the mainstream and forever changed gaming for the worse. There is a reason the golden era of gaming refers to the NES/SNES/Genesis years and not any generation after. Gaming was diluted after Playstation and made to a new standard of marketability.
I don't hate Sony. I like their products. I resent the death of the old hardcore and how the new generation embraces today's core mainstream crap as 'hardcore' when somebody like me who has been gaming since 2600 and Odyssey doesn't even consider that stuff games but interactive shit for no life mainstream-tards.
SEGA Saturn was a hardcore gaming platform.....
IN Japan. Not America.
Not agreeing with you there...Saturn was easily the most hardcore of the 3 consoles in America. Why wasn't it? Because it had a few crappy sports titles?
Sega would not be a console maker today even if it had never fucked up 32X, Sega CD, Saturn processor, surprise launch and death, pissed off EA, etc, etc and all the other bullshit we all know. And the reason why not has to do with the gaming audiences today. Remember the Naka/Moore "F you" story about the focus group saying Sega was the old grandpa or whatever the fuck that was no longer cool and couldn't remember why or whatever shit? Don't side-step this key point. Sega would not be a console maker today under any condition unless they were bought by one of the giants and altered to suite the new audiences.
Sony=new gaming audiences more mainstream than in the 8bit and 16bit era. If you and TA love today gaming, I don't care but please accept the truth of this. Stop going around like there are no connections between modern gaming audiences and the state of Sega today. I know all the internal fuck-ups but that is only half the story.
My point in all my rambling, which I will soon retire from, is to try to inject an old-school hardcore vibe into the mainstream, corporate game-marketing control-grid matrix hoping to reignite a demand for hardcore. I'm not a hater, that's pointless. I have an agenda, but I can see it is a totally hopeless cause because today's gamers are sheep.
Mainstream gaming is a waste of life.
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Well no doubt that was a factor. .3D. On the other hand, Saturn was going to be a 2D powerhouse until PSX forced Sega's hand into console 3D. That is something to consider. Playstation certainly upped the hardware arms race making it harder for arcades to stay ahead of consoles, you will agree. Going to find that article.
The Sega Saturn was always meant to be able to handle 3D, That is why the CPU was changed every early in . Long before anyone knew SONY was making its own Console, SEGA was developed the Model 1 board and was working on Model 2 which had graphics way beyond any console or planned console . Sony Arcade hardware was using it’s the PS chipset, totally different to SEGA approach.
SONY upped the Hardware battle in the home, In the Arcades It was SEGA fighting with NAMCO.
But why then didn't Saturn and DC become the FPS machines of their time? Sega catered to a different audience primarily, MS/XBOX/FPS and the new Halo audiences, on the other hand, went hand and hand.
For a few reasons , namely both console were already seen as losing the Hardware Battle and they came out too late in the Console lifespan to really make a Difference ,and also they weren’t console exclusive to SEGA.
And there is more to the 360 or X-Box than just HALO, as there was to the Mega Drive than just SONIC . They helped kicked start the machines, but you then need a broad range of games and 3rd party support , Sadly that is what SEGA lacked with the Saturn and DC.
Doesn't Sony get any credit for dooming Saturn? Saturn was more hardcore and less mainstream than PS1. Right there you can see the beginning of an audience shift.
SEGA did more to doom the Saturn than SONY with that piss poor joke that was the 32X . But worst than that was SquareSoft , that’s what really killed SEGA . If FF7 had come out on the Saturn, that combined with VF would have killed the PS stone cold dead in Japan. I think people forget how much the Saturn was killing the PS in Japan , until that bloody FF7 demo hit Japan.
32X and Not getting Square to develope on the Saturn was SEGA mistakes, not SONY .
Or that PS2 sold as a DVD player first when the launch titles were too few in number and quality against DC's awesome line-up. But none of that matters to, TA.
You think SEGA wouldn't have made a massive play on the DVD if the DC had it as its storage ?. Wake up it wasn't inthe DC due to timing and cost , that's it.
it is all about money in the end and they want games that will fill DVD and blu-ray discs and justify HD tv's. They are not a game company
You think SEGA isn't in the game to make MONEY ?. is there any point in having a debate with someone who things Quality games like Drakes II or God of War are there just to fill up DVD or BluRay space ? .
Btw, Do SEGA make High Def Arcade Hardware, High Def Games, didn't SEGA make a huge play onthe CD Medium with the SEGA/Mega CD . What was it now, Welcome to the Next Level .
There was absolutely no allusion by Sega that DC was a game machine first and only marketed to gamers first and only. Totally different story with PS2 and DVD.
That's why SONY spent millions and millions developing the Emotion Engine & Graphics Synthesizer ? , has well as millions and millions in In-House productions . When all it needed to do was just make a DVD player, which I thought SONY also did ?
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TA pretty much covered everything. Saying 'this is marketed as a bluray' is like saying that the Genesis used 'stereo sound' , 'high definition graphics' and 'blast processing' (aka made up) to sell consoles. They did. You can't get caught up in marketing. Its all BS.
(http://http://www-unix.ecs.umass.edu/~dhowland/mod/images/model1.jpg)
SEGA must want to sell TVs.
SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.
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SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.
Spot on, and SEGA wasted a hell of a lot of many going the FMV route, instead of using all that extra space to make full games. SEGA more than most pushed 3D into the Arcades, long before SONY, Also SEGA allowed FPS to appear on the Mega Drive and Mega CD, and even pushed,produced and published DOOM as a reason to buy the 32X , all long before HALO and X-Box
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He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).
SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html)
Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.
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He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).
SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html)
Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.
SEGA also beat MS and SONY to LIVE Arcade and PSN, with its own classic Mega Drive and PC-Eng download service for the Dreamcast. You quite right about Quake III, SEGA made a massive deal about it , its also was making a BIG play on that is had Half-Life coming to the DC, and even recommended Captivation Digital to do the port , after they produced a number of tech demo for the set 2 Dreamcast development. Lets remember too SEGA made a huge play on the fact that Dreamcast had Windows CE, even had Bill Gates on Video at the Dreamcst launch party, and boasted that most PC to DC ports could be done in a matter on months.
Its rather silly to blame SONY. I blame SONY for lying about its Online PS2 plains, showing off far too much fake Footage . People need to wake up to the fact that SEGA messed up with the 32 Bit battle, and that's what really cost SEGA dear, even before the DC came out, most saw SEGA as finished. And all this talk of mainstream makes me laugh, when the Mega Drive was the benchmark for a mainstream console.
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SEGA did more to doom the Saturn than SONY with that piss poor joke that was the 32X . But worst than that was SquareSoft , that’s what really killed SEGA . If FF7 had come out on the Saturn, that combined with VF would have killed the PS stone cold dead in Japan. I think people forget how much the Saturn was killing the PS in Japan , until that bloody FF7 demo hit Japan.
So, if 32X had never existed Sega was going to have the financial resources to sell a PS1 class console at $100 cheaper than Saturn was originally intend to launch? It was going to develop a GTE and a R3000 class processor? What does Square and 32X have to do with one company having a approx $30 billion dollar market cap at the time and the other like $3 billion? Could it be Sony provided Square some financial incentive in addition to superior hardware for their new style of presentation?
32X and Not getting Square to develope on the Saturn was SEGA mistakes, not SONY .
Sony being the larger more powerful company with the deeper pockets and world leading consumer electronics brand was Sega's fault?
A lot of what people accuse Sega of getting wrong is a consequence of them being outclassed by Sony or forced to react to it in a less than ideal way. And I say that in no defense of Sega or denial of their incompetence and poor execution.
What about Sony having the games that were resonating with an aging gaming audience and drawing in new mainstream ones defining a new generation of gamers? Sega style games largely rooted in arcades gave way to the new more cinematic, presentational, longer, story driven style of Sony games.
You think SEGA wouldn't have made a massive play on the DVD if the DC had it as its storage ?. Wake up it wasn't inthe DC due to timing and cost , that's it.
You missed the point of the statement. It wasn't about Sega not being able to afford DVD, but the audiences that were buying PS2, "the future of entertainment" and not DC the game console.
You think SEGA isn't in the game to make MONEY ?. is there any point in having a debate with someone who things Quality games like Drakes II or God of War are there just to fill up DVD or BluRay space ? .
The point is the style of those games are such to cater to the mainstream audiences they are intended to profit from. There is nothing hardcore about their gameplay. Little technique to them, they're Sony style. They are boring, there is no intensity or skill to their gameplay. It's just an interactive cinematic weak in style and play.
He also did not take into account that DC pioneered the 'online spectrum' and 'downloadable content' for games on console. They also did the whole 'mmo' thing with PSO and competitive open online FPS with Quake III (opening to play with PC users).
SEGA even sponsored Quake III Arena tournaments
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2689143.html)
Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.
So? Those all amounted to nothing without the massive marketing budgets of Sony and MS to bring them to the mainstream. It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.
Not to mention having the first sports title with supported online play and other things that are now 'mainstream'. Ahead of their time? Yes. SEGA shaped what gaming is today.
SEGA also beat MS and SONY to LIVE Arcade and PSN, with its own classic Mega Drive and PC-Eng download service for the Dreamcast. You quite right about Quake III, SEGA made a massive deal about it , its also was making a BIG play on that is had Half-Life coming to the DC, and even recommended Captivation Digital to do the port , after they produced a number of tech demo for the set 2 Dreamcast development. Lets remember too SEGA made a huge play on the fact that Dreamcast had Windows CE, even had Bill Gates on Video at the Dreamcst launch party, and boasted that most PC to DC ports could be done in a matter on months.
Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.
Its rather silly to blame SONY. I blame SONY for lying about its Online PS2 plains, showing off far too much fake Footage . People need to wake up to the fact that SEGA messed up with the 32 Bit battle, and that's what really cost SEGA dear, even before the DC came out, most saw SEGA as finished. And all this talk of mainstream makes me laugh, when the Mega Drive was the benchmark for a mainstream console.
No, TA. What you need to make the connections about is that regardless whatever Sega would have done in the 32bit era or 16bit era before it, it had no chance in hell of competing with Sony and MS in the long run. Please accept this. And none of that is possible without the mainstream audiences to subsidize it, mainstream audiences that weren't about playing arcadey or quirky Sega games. MD existed when gaming was still a niche industry, plz, TA.
SEGA was also one of the biggest companies that wanted to push CD-Roms and CDs as a console format in the 90's, also one of the first developers to start up 3-D, that you loath.
Spot on, and SEGA wasted a hell of a lot of many going the FMV route, instead of using all that extra space to make full games. SEGA more than most pushed 3D into the Arcades, long before SONY, Also SEGA allowed FPS to appear on the Mega Drive and Mega CD, and even pushed,produced and published DOOM as a reason to buy the 32X , all long before HALO and X-Box
You guys are getting off tangent with your weak arguments. Sega having an incentive to see the cheaper CD format adopted doesn't contradict anything I've said. I don't hate 3D, wtf? Maybe I said something like 2D could have lived a little bit longer before 3D became dominant in the console space. I do think the 3D display crap being hyped today is a gimmick, yeah.
You both get all distracted with Sega's mistakes and neglect to realize that even had it not made any of them there is no way in hell Sega would be a console maker today competing with the likes of Sony and Microsoft. Not even Nintendo was able to compete with them being forced to resort to a gimmicky piece of shit, "troll on gaming" game system to stay alive.
If Nintendo had to sell a high end HD 3D system at a loss or small margin guess what their stock worth would be? About $5 rather than $30.
Why can the other guys do it? Because they have the other divisions to offset the losses. Do you see the obvious that there is no way in hell Sega could be competing this gen no matter what it did in the past?
Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion. Arcades died largely for the same reason.
Sony and MS in gaming = rise of corporate mainstream gaming and the end of Sega.
class dismissed.
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So, if 32X had never existed Sega was going to have the financial resources to sell a PS1 class console at $100 cheaper than Saturn was originally intend to launch? It was going to develop a GTE and a R3000 class processor? What does Square and 32X have to do with one company having a approx $30 billion dollar market cap at the time and the other like $3 billion? Could it be Sony provided Square some financial incentive in addition to superior hardware for their new style of presentation?
SEGA Saturn only cost more than the PS for a very short time, very early in SEGA Japan cut the price , when the new motherboards came into to Play and RAM, went down in Price (People forget Sega Saturn was 2nd only to Neo Geo CD for the ammount of system RAM).
By the time of the white Saturn and yet another new Mother Board SEGA was able to slash the cost of the Saturn way below that of the PS in Japan, so much so, I think in 2 days SEGA sold over 70,000 Saturn's (those were the days huh ?) . SEGA had more than enough money not just to develop one console, but 2 . Dural and Blackbelt at the same time , The amount of money that SEGA wasted over the years is tragic. SEGA would have done what its always done, and used off the shelf parts, or deal with the likes of Hitachi to power its Hardware (very much like MS)
Square have everything to do with the death of the Saturn in Japan, and the 32X everything to do with SEGA losing the 32bit Hardware battle .
If was 'just about money in the Bank as key to success.. Microsoft would have crushed everyone with the X-Box , killed the Wii this generation , destroyed the I-Pod with Zune, HD DVD would have killed BluRay and been a complete success, and SEGA would have been crushed to death in 16 bit days by Nintendo. Sony and NCL need not bother, because MS have more money inthe bank than sense.
Like with all products you need Retail and Market support, and money doesn't guarantee that.
Sony being the larger more powerful company with the deeper pockets and world leading consumer electronics brand was Sega's fault?
If that's the case, SEGA would have been crushed right at the start by Nintendo. Please stop the silly talk.
Sega style games largely rooted in arcades gave way to the new more cinematic, presentational, longer, story driven style of Sony games.
SEGA were making less and less Arcade games for its own systems in the Mega Drive days, as people just weren't willing to pay £40 for a simple Arcade ports . That's why SEGA produced or published RPG even for the Master System. BTW Sony PS was a machine that had a number of Arcade ports you know.
It wasn't about Sega not being able to afford DVD,
There was lovely little interview with Hideki Sato before the launch of the DC. When asked why the DC didn't have a DVD drive, he was quite honest. Timing and costs were the 2 major issues why it wasn't included.
There is nothing hardcore about their gameplay.
What makes a game Hardcore, for a start ? . You going to sit there and tell me that the likes of Aladdin , Sonic on the Mega Drive weren't mainstream ?, and that one really needs skill to finish Sonic ? much less World Of Illusion.
Maybe you should play God of war 1 & II and come back and say they don't need any skill to finish them. Play ICO, Shadow of the Colossus and come back and tell me they're mainstream games and SONY jumping on the Bandwagon, and weak in style.
It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.
Try it was also the likes of Williams, Acclaim, Dreamworks ECT , Who enjoyed great success with Doom, Alien Trilogy, Medal Of Honour, Turok on 32/64 Bit system , and lets not forget Rare 7 Goldeneye on the N64. Not only did that have a massive impact and truly opened the console world to FPS, it sill remains one of the best selling FPS, with betters sales that the Original HALO.
Lets now all hate GoldenEye :roll:
Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.
No it isn't. You can push a product as much as you want, if no one wants it, its doomed to fail. SEGA used to spent millions and millions have a world class brand in the 16 Bit days , all that was down to money was it ?.
if it was how the hell SEGA beat Nintendo in America I'll never know , how SEGA let Capcom make the Arcade sensation that was Street Fighter II I'll never know (when SEGA is a bigger corp, both inthe home and Arcade).
Why is SEGA having its Butt kicked by Capcom this generation or last generation then > SEGA a far bigger corp , with more staff and resources . Yet came nowhere near Capcom sales for this or last Generation .
Don't tell me its all SONY fault :roll:
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Blame it on Sony. They where not THAT big when they launched the PSone. They had no name in the gaming industry and Playstation brand did not mean anything. They were going against SEGA and Nintendo. Heavy weights in the industry.
This is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.
Having so many gaming flops (that 5th gen and 4th gen) really made consumers weary of spending money on a console that is not 'proved' itself. It took awhile for Sony to prove itself. Its not like they came out and sold billions and just sat there counting cash.
Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.
SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.
SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd.
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his is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.
Spot on Post , How did NEC one of the biggest companies in the word, came nowhere in America with the Turbo Graph , 2nd with the PC-Eng and then a poor distance 3rd/4th in Japan with the PC-FX When it had more money than SEGA or NCL combined, and was even bigger than SONY at the time (or so I believe) .NEC were so big and had so much money , it should have killed SEGA and NCL from the get go
If its about money, why didn't Shenmue become to the best selling game ever made. Not many game projects even now have 70 million dollars lavished on them. Money doesn't always talk
Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.
Yep FF7 had a massive impact in Japan and killed SEGA almost overnight . Big hitters like RE 2 were a massive deal, as was the wide spread easy of modding the PS at that time . The sad fact is , gamers,3rd parties and retail had enough of SEGA at that time
SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.
That move still Hurts . Yeah lets get SEGA fans ready for next console, by telling them you wasted money on the Saturn, we're not going to bring its best games over, do your self a favour, and buy a PS or N64 in the mean time . That's a great way to sell your 32bit console to America.
SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd
[/quote][/quote] Yep, SEGA were never going to be number one, but with mess up that was the N64 . SEGA had a great chance of being a strong number 2 in the West (even number 1 in Japan).
To blame SONY for everything is silly and not looking at the whole picture objectively
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Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion. Arcades died largely for the same reason.
Yes, this explains why Daytona USA is the most successful arcade racing game of all time.
Now tell me, how have games like The House of the Dead, Crazy Taxi, Streets of Rage, Virtua Fighter, Phantasy Star, Shinobi and Puyo Puyo became huge successes in all regions to only name a few? Not to mention that games like Shenmue were a much larger success outside of Japan, which crushes your point entirely.
Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.
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If was 'just about money in the Bank as key to success.. Microsoft would have crushed everyone with the X-Box , killed the Wii this generation , destroyed the I-Pod with Zune, HD DVD would have killed BluRay and been a complete success, and SEGA would have been crushed to death in 16 bit days by Nintendo. Sony and NCL need not bother, because MS have more money inthe bank than sense.
Like with all products you need Retail and Market support, and money doesn't guarantee that.
Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period. All that Sega ever managed to do in the eyes of mainstream audiences since its peak years in the 16it days was tarnish their reputation.
SEGA were making less and less Arcade games for its own systems in the Mega Drive days, as people just weren't willing to pay £40 for a simple Arcade ports . That's why SEGA produced or published RPG even for the Master System. BTW Sony PS was a machine that had a number of Arcade ports you know.
Yeah, but Sega style games were losing to 'Sony style' games that were drawing in the mainstream audiences. Nobody but people like us gave a fart about Saturn's niche hardcore offerings.
What makes a game Hardcore, for a start ? . You going to sit there and tell me that the likes of Aladdin , Sonic on the Mega Drive weren't mainstream ?, and that one really needs skill to finish Sonic ? much less World Of Illusion.
Street Fighter 2 achieved mainstream appeal yet was a hardcore game based on the game design being made first to appeal to hardcore game audiences. Uncharted has to sell to both dedicated and less dedicated gamers. The gameplay really never demands that much, isn't precise or unforgiving like old platformers and has no pace, tempo or energy to it, little skill or challenge of mastery, terrible replayability. To me, personally, it is a pretty but boring game that expresses nothing to me through out all its elements. It is a quintessential 'mainstream' game. Whether a game is hardcore or not is all about who it is going to appeal to. A game can be hardcore just on 'feel' regardless whether it has mainstream support or not.
Maybe you should play God of war 1 & II and come back and say they don't need any skill to finish them. Play ICO, Shadow of the Colossus and come back and tell me they're mainstream games and SONY jumping on the Bandwagon, and weak in style.
I played GoW to completion and just remember how boring and generic it all was. I remember some challenge to some of the last levels but it just didn't 'feel' hardcore so I deem that it is not. Very generic artistically and the gameplay was never 'alive'. Bet your lovin' these responses. . . :mrgreen:
It was MS with Halo and Activision and EA that brought FPS to the mainstream in a significant way, not Sega.
Try it was also the likes of Williams, Acclaim, Dreamworks ECT , Who enjoyed great success with Doom, Alien Trilogy, Medal Of Honour, Turok on 32/64 Bit system , and lets not forget Rare 7 Goldeneye on the N64. Not only did that have a massive impact and truly opened the console world to FPS, it sill remains one of the best selling FPS, with betters sales that the Original HALO.
Lets now all hate GoldenEye :roll:
Blah, "great success" is not the massive mainstream sales that these current FPS' have. Williams stuff, that I always appreciated, was barely known to mainstream audiences. Goldeneye doesn't even come close to what the Halo series has achieved. Are you sure about that sales statistic, better than Halo 1? I seriously doubt it.
Halo and CoD have achieved 10's of millions in sales more than all those other early day fps combined, it's all about the corporations and the marketing dollars behind them. Who pioneered them is irrelevant.
Yeah, but it's all really irrelevant when you realize that without the massive marketing budgets and world class brands of Sony and Microsoft those efforts didn't amount to anything and had little to no mainstream presence.
No it isn't. You can push a product as much as you want, if no one wants it, its doomed to fail. SEGA used to spent millions and millions have a world class brand in the 16 Bit days , all that was down to money was it ?.
if it was how the hell SEGA beat Nintendo in America I'll never know , how SEGA let Capcom make the Arcade sensation that was Street Fighter II I'll never know (when SEGA is a bigger corp, both inthe home and Arcade).
In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here?
TA, stop acting like the Sega brand at its peak could come even close to comparing what the Sony brand is. Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.
Why is SEGA having its Butt kicked by Capcom this generation or last generation then > SEGA a far bigger corp , with more staff and resources . Yet came nowhere near Capcom sales for this or last Generation .
Sega divorced of Sammy is only like $1.5 billion company, really not that much larger financially than Capcom. Besides this argument doesn't make sense, they're competing on software this has nothing to do with Sony and Sega in a console war.
Incidentally, why is Capcom 'kicking Sega's butt'? Great mainstream appeal.
Don't tell me its all SONY fault :roll:
It's not really what I am saying, fault has negative connotations, more like 'consequence'. The video game industry grew up from its niche core to a mainstream one where Sony and MS rule and Nintendo bottom feeds with degenerative kiddy and casual troll of the market. Sega didn't have pokemon, gb/gba and DS to survive like they did.
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Blame it on Sony. They where not THAT big when they launched the PSone. They had no name in the gaming industry and Playstation brand did not mean anything. They were going against SEGA and Nintendo. Heavy weights in the industry.
Sony was a giant when it launched PS1, it was the world leading consumer electronic brand. Nintendo and Sega were kings of a niche industry. Sony was the global mainstream electronic giant with the brand sophistication and reputation.
This is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.
Apple wasn't cool in the eyes of the gaming market or going to be equated with video games from a mainstream perspective.
Having so many gaming flops (that 5th gen and 4th gen) really made consumers weary of spending money on a console that is not 'proved' itself. It took awhile for Sony to prove itself. Its not like they came out and sold billions and just sat there counting cash.
Sony's console came out in 1994, did not reach mainstream success till 1997 when they released Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 (1998), MGS (1998). Those titles pushed them over the top.
Practically 1995 in Japan and fall 95 in America and by the time N64 launched a year later it was clear Sony owned the market and not because PS1 was first but hot and taking off in a new direction and drawing a new audience.
SEGA gave up on the Saturn in 1997, when the President of SEGA said that the console was not SEGA's future. Sorry, but instead of fighting on and trying to secure exclusives and make their platform have more games for consumers, they decided to not support it by not releasing genres of games and releasing 'limited quantities' of games fans wanted.
SEGA of America really killed the Saturn, if the thing sold as well as Dreamcast did in America it would have lasted the generation and came in at 2nd.
Strategic retreat in the face of a total domination. Sony killed Sega. Your saying it all there. . . the stuff they decided not to release wasn't mainstream enough to justify it. There was no 'fighting on' George. At that point it was about 'cutting your loses'. I'm serious.
Saturn was dead from the start. All it ever had that the mainstream consumer might have barely cared about was the Virtua series games and even they were far behind Sony's more popular with the mainstream offerings, that were setting a style that was less arcadey and more presentational, cinematic, and story drive.
DC was an irresponsible move, really. They should have gone software only in 98 from an investor perspective.
Sony killed Sega, George. I don't have to say that in a negative fashion either, it was a natural consequence of industry growth. Contrary to what you may think I like and admire Sony, its just that my tastes in gaming are more old school hardcore than core mainstream, which is what this discussion has been about all this time.
I would be super happy if a style rich, gameplay centric game as alive a Jet came out for PS3 tomorrow.
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his is not even talking about bigger companies that tried to push their products that generation either, like Apple and Bandai with the Pippin. Apple being a big company. There was also Virtual Boy, Bandai Playdia, Neo Geo CD, PC-FX (if considered a console), and Casio Loopy.
Spot on Post , How did NEC one of the biggest companies in the word, came nowhere in America with the Turbo Graph , 2nd with the PC-Eng and then a poor distance 3rd/4th in Japan with the PC-FX When it had more money than SEGA or NCL combined, and was even bigger than SONY at the time (or so I believe) .NEC were so big and had so much money , it should have killed SEGA and NCL from the get go
No. Not 'spot on' at all there, TA, my friend.
You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC? That most mainstream-tards couldn't even recognize or don't know the fuck about it if they do?
Please! Slow down there, fella.
Did NEC go after mainstream western audiences with their shitty little obscure, hardcore consoles? Making my points and lovin' it!
If its about money, why didn't Shenmue become to the best selling game ever made. Not many game projects even now have 70 million dollars lavished on them. Money doesn't always talk
Never been my point that it is all about money. It's all about a combination of
BRAND/MONEY/MAINSTREAM APPEAL
and Sony and MS win that hands down against Nintendo and Sega.
Shenmue? I love it when you make my point in attempting to counter argue. $70 million dollars and it didn't sell because it had no mainstream appeal. Yet Rockstar's turd does all on mainstream appeal. See the difference? And who caused the industry to be that way?!
CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Almost lost your post there on the last page. :P
Sega style games don't resonate with mainstream western audiences (unless their kiddy crap Sonic games) today that has been the whole point of the discussion. Arcades died largely for the same reason.
Yes, this explains why Daytona USA is the most successful arcade racing game of all time.
Now tell me, how have games like The House of the Dead, Crazy Taxi, Streets of Rage, Virtua Fighter, Phantasy Star, Shinobi and Puyo Puyo became huge successes in all regions to only name a few? Not to mention that games like Shenmue were a much larger success outside of Japan, which crushes your point entirely.
I don't see the contradiction with the arcade hits, that was obviously Sega's arena that Sony never touched. None of the aforementioned games come close to the massive sales the mainstream mega sellers pull today. If you look at the top 10 charted games today they are not arcadey at all.
Shenmue in Japan comes down to the DC's weakness in that territory and the gaming audience swept up in PS2 hype and shifting towards Playstation style gaming. Shenmue Online, of course, was a Chinese game? Maybe I'm just not following your point about Shenmue?
Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.
Yeah, but none of those compare to Nintendo's awesome kiddy power.
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Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.
Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days . NCL had far more money , far better brand strength and far more mianstream appeal , with a NES being a complete smash in the USA.
Yeah, but Sega style games were losing to 'Sony style' games that were drawing in the mainstream audiences. Nobody but people like us gave a fart about Saturn's niche hardcore offerings.
What isn't mainstream about Sonic , John Madden, Aladdin and God knows how many more Mega Drive games . And what this SONY style game you speak off , Don't tell me Wipeout ?
Street Fighter 2 achieved mainstream appeal yet was a hardcore game based on the game design being made first to appeal to hardcore game audiences
Nothing Hardcore about SF II, it was a game that almost everyone I knew in school played, because everyone could play it.
little skill or challenge of mastery, terrible replayability.
Like Sonic you mean ?
A game can be hardcore just on 'feel' regardless whether it has mainstream support or not.
Right I want to know what makes a game HardCore ?
Very generic artistically
Oh yes that's right , Greek mythology have been done to death in Videogames :roll:
Goldeneye doesn't even come close to what the Halo series has achieved. Are you sure about that sales statistic, better than Halo 1? I seriously doubt it.
Try GoldenEye sold over 8 million copies, far more than the original HALO 5 to 6 million copies sold . So you need to start to hate GE :lol:
In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here? In 2000: Sony market cap--$116 billion, Sega $3.5 billion, Nintendo $15 to $20 billion. LoL at however the hell you think Sega was going to compete with Sony with that size and the world best brand. Sega, Nintendo and Capcom were rivals all in the same industry. . . your really straying off course here?
You want me to bring in what Micosoft Market Cap is ?. How come MS lost out with the X-Box , lost out to the Wii, MS with more cash inthe Bank that what NCL are worth. How did NEC lost out to both SEGA and NCL when on what ever which way you cut it, they're were a far bigger Corp , than SEGA or NCL.
With your attitude SEGA should never have started in the Video Game Industry and might as well put out now.
Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.
No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self, why SEGA in the 90's was one of the fastest growing Companies in Japan, why Sonic is one of the best selling franchise of all time . Because no-one cared for SEGA .
Sega divorced of Sammy is only like $1.5 billion company, really not that much larger financially than Capcom.
SEGA have always been bigger than Capcom , always had more capital and way more staff . What is it 3000 Vs 800 ?. Yet Capcom are able to boost more million selling IP this and last Generation.
Incidentally, why is Capcom 'kicking Sega's butt'? Great mainstream appeal
Wait I though you made out SF II was Hardcore ?. SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you . DMC 3 is inanely hard
The video game industry grew up from its niche core to a mainstream
The Video Games Industry was Huge in the Atari days . Sure more people own consoles today , but they again more people own TV's,cars Microwaves, Phones . Thanks to people getting richer and better living standards.
Not just SONY mate
Sony was a giant when it launched PS1, it was the world leading consumer electronic brand.
It was nothing in the Video Games Industry, so much so NCL thought it could humiliate SONY . SONY 1st venture inthe games Industry was poor with the MSX.
And how did this world leading all powerful consumer brand lose out to JVC's VHS drive . Remind me again was Mini Disc a huge seller ?
Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.
You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?
Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming
Did NEC go after mainstream western audiences with their shitty little obscure, hardcore consoles
Yes they tried thier best with TurboGrafx and failed. That despite have all that lovely money inthe bank, and being so, so much bigger than NCL, never mind SEGA. You see to some, the PC-Eng is as hardcore as it gets in Video games.
$70 million dollars and it didn't sell because it had no mainstream appeal. Yet Rockstar's turd does all on mainstream appeal. See the difference? And who caused the industry to be that way?!
Its all about Money isn' t it and this poor little SEGA with no money. Can somehow find 80 million to sped on 1 project and for it to still sell poor, there's nothing Mainstream in Darkness or Boarderlands either
All I see is money is no guarantee of success, talking of which Rockstar much like SEGA, haven't posted a profit in years (could change this year)
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I don't see the contradiction with the arcade hits, that was obviously Sega's arena that Sony never touched. None of the aforementioned games come close to the massive sales the mainstream mega sellers pull today. If you look at the top 10 charted games today they are not arcadey at all.
All of the games I mentioned were successes on consoles. There are tons of others I did not mention, like Golden Axe and Shining. Streets of Rage and Phantasy Star was also always a console exclusive and Shinobi games were much much more popular on the console platforms it was on.
Shenmue in Japan comes down to the DC's weakness in that territory and the gaming audience swept up in PS2 hype and shifting towards Playstation style gaming. Shenmue Online, of course, was a Chinese game? Maybe I'm just not following your point about Shenmue?
Excuses excuses, you have a flawed argument and will just not admit it.
Also, tons of their kiddy games fail. Billy Hatcher was supposed to be a whole new brand image, Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll was the first very kiddy game in the series, guess what? It was the ONLY flop in the entire franchise so far. Same with Virtua Quest, a complete bomb.
Yeah, but none of those compare to Nintendo's awesome kiddy power.
You missed my point completely. You said the only Japanese-made SEGA games that are successes are their kiddy games. This is completely false.
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How did gaming start niche?
"Home Pong was an instant success following its limited 1975 release through Sears; around 150,000 units were sold that holiday season. The game became Sears' most successful product at the time, which earned Atari a Sears Quality Excellence Award."
Does not sound niche to me.
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True dat. Gaming in no way grew from niche to mainstream, gaming BEGAN as mainstream then grew to support a variety of niche games. Hell, look at arcade and video game culture from the early 70's! Video games and arcades were a huge success. Even my parents, who never owned a gaming system in their lives, remember playing arcade games back in the day. People went crazy for Pong!
Now if you are going as far back as Tennis, Ping Pong and Spacewar!,all homebrew efforts only experienced by those who owned one of these:
(http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Vs-dec-pdp-1.jpg)
then maybe you could argue niche, but that was only because they weren't commercially available. I'd say gaming began as an elite hobby (elite in the sense that few owned computers) and hit mainstream in its first commercial release (Pong).
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I think the fact that Jet Set Radio's Japanese sales are higher than Grand Theft Auto IV's world-wide sales is a clear indicator of the industry's woes. Especially considering that Jet Set Radio was just a boring Sim-style game whereas GTAIV was a rollercoaster of emotion and intricate and off-beat ideas. The fact that WWE's Undertaker was every character in the game only supports my idea as well.
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PROOF!
LOOK AND LEARN!
YAY!
INDUSTRY U.S. REVENUES:
(http://http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8990/57396855.png)
Industry revenues more than doubled from 3.2 to 6.9 billion during the PS1 years thanks to Playstation's mainstream drawing power!
George, look at U.S. industry growth between fall of 1999 to 2000. It was down! Buh, buh I thawt DC was mainstreamz, Eastsides!
Oh, woah! Industry revenues explode for PS2 launch! Dis mainstreamz shit for real, yo!
Industry revenues double again during the PS2 years due to its Casual Engine and Mainstream Synthesizer powered by DVD!!!
Crap! Another big industry mainstream fart thanks to Wee Wee! HOORAY FOR MAINSTREAM AND CASUAL!!!
TA, LOOK!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry)
Considered by some as a curiosity in the mid-1970s, the computer and video game industries have grown from niche markets to mainstream.
IT GREW FROM NICHE TO MAINSTREAM, OMG!!!
REALITY!
REALITY WINS!
USA!
USA!
USA!
USA!
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Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.
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Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin. Hence, Shenmue is more mainstream and casual than Soccer games.
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TA, LOOK!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry)
You lost any credibility there mate . Sorry anyone here can edit Wikipedia .
Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin
So did Seaman, but I wouldn't class that game as mainstream ;) :P
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Shenmue sold more than UEFA Dream Soccer on Dreamcast by a good margin
So did Seaman, but I wouldn't class that game as mainstream ;) :P
Exactly, I was just being sarcastic to show how flawed his reasoning was.
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Thanks. You're absolutely right. I saw that Kaz Hirai PS2 lauch quote recently saying that PS2 was "the future of entertainment" referring to not just gaming. But don't tell TA that cuz it doesn't jibe with his theory of a gaming market that never evolved and let's not kid ourselves that the PS2 launch hype was as much or more about DVD than games. Or that PS2 sold as a DVD player first when the launch titles were too few in number and quality against DC's awesome line-up. But none of that matters to, TA.
DC was a pure game machine despite what other secondary functions Sega tacked onto the packaging of the console. That's why DC is often referred to, correctly, as the last hardcore game machine.
Wii is a fucking piece of shit not even worth mentioning in a discussion like this, but don't forget that it is an exercise machine with no gaming functions for a lot of overweight women.
Not the point. Whatever one's personal opinion of the Wii the main point was that this isn't new Nintendo going for a family image console that appealed to the masses because that's exactly what they did with the original NES. The difference between them and nintendo however is that Nintendo has a core game using their IP at the heart of its product which sony never really had. Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were. And as for someone's DC comment, the online functions like the ones for the other sega systems were used to enhance gameplay and not for anything much else. Yet the real games machine the 360 and xbox dvd and music abilities really enhance gameplay. And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience. Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.
As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything. I always find that once you scratch the service in any discussion with TA there is no or little substance apart from erronous facts he got from reading retromagazines that look at the past with hindsight and not neccessarly with a fair hand. The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.
NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else? NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period and even then it was still outsold by the famicom and if they had more money to spend then somebody should have tell them considering Sega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one. Logic alone should spell out who had the money to blanket market and who didn't. Yet you have people here...This is why its no point bothering with these kids anymore. No doubt they will tell you that "NEC didn't take the market seriously enough." :roll:
Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did. The PSX had three games vital to its success. Toshiden, demolition Derby and Ridge Racer in america and the UK they marketed them like crazy. Why? Because they were cashing in on Sega's model 2 success in the arcades. People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in. By the time they did appear it was way to late. Only RR had any real quality than the other two but what they all did was show 3d model 2 style to the punter and how exciting it was.
Sega had sonic and a whole lot of other IP yet SOJ sat on sonic for two years before they decided to make a game for the saturn. Many of the SOA ips that would have been vital to gain an american audience were either shut down or MIA.
If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did. Its also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged off.
And as for the wiki comment from TA. Anytime you have major news reports talking about the games industry as a set peice you're pretty much mainstream. Just because its on wiki doesn't make it not true. That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7 because its only those gamers that actually believe sony's propaganda that they made it mainstream. He being a "long term" gamer should already know that and not need you to tell him.
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I see no mention of "niche" on the linked wikipedia page:
(http://http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8170/picture1qps.png)
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Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were.
I do sometimes wonder if you ever owned a Saturn, or ever took much Interest in it . Saturn not meant or never marked as a Multi Media device ?. That would explain the Saturn mighty and impressive CD front end: Those 2 Left and Right polygons blobs that reacted in tune to any music being played, the fact that the face buttons on the Saturn, had symbols for play pause, Forward ECT, Hell you could even alter the pitch of the music track, or tack the vocals out of the music , All in the Saturn's front end for ones music CD's.
Unlike SONY PS every SEGA Saturn was able to play Video CD's and display Photo CD's through a Add on . The only way to play Video CD's on the PS, was to buy the limited edition Asian model. One could also buy a Disc Drive, Keyboard, even Surf the web through the Saturn various adds ons
SEGA Saturn was Multi Media alright.
And I do remember SEGA Europe no lease , advertising the Video CD player in SEGA Saturn Magazine, No less
And as for someone's DC comment, the online functions like the ones for the other sega systems were used to enhance gameplay and not for anything much else.
No that's why my Japan Launch Dreamcast came with a lovely Browser CD , Why SEGA Europe spent millions on DreamAera , Yeo Internet was there only to enhance games :roll: . The fact remains the Only current console (be it hand held or Home console) one can't Surf the Web on is the 360, You Surf the web on the Wii.
And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience
The BluRay Playback on the PS3 is perfect . I really don't get the silly DMC Comment, its a game, not a Film. But yes the 1st game was quite a memorable experience.
NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else?
You've got the cheek to make out people Twist Things after that ?. NEC as a company was always bigger than SEGA, and had more money inthe Ban . Then and now NEC is a Electronic Giant, just like SONY.
If we want to play your silly little game, How small and how much Money did Sony Computer Entertainment have ?. Not much from what I recall, didn't even have their own floor when developing the SNES CD.
ega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one.
Wait SEGA was meant to be this small corp with no money, and not able to take on any Electronic Giants. Thanks for proving my point .
And unless you lived in America at the time, I really don't how one can comment on NEC adverts, or lack of
NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period
??. PC Engine had a long LifeSpan in Japan and sold over 6 million units. Better life span and double the userbase of the Mega Drive in Japan for sure .
Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states.
There's a great open interview with SEGA America staff in this Months Retro Gamer (with SOA Vice President of Tech 1993/1997 and Senior Producer of SOA 1990/1994) . Yes that right people who worked in Technical Dept on the 32X . I suggest you read it , its quite fascinating . And shows how wrong you really are.
In Their words
"Frankly, the 32X just made us look greedy and dumb to consumers"
People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in.
What are you on about ?. VF II was brought out as soon as it was ready, weeks after it 1st shipped in Japan, and Daytona USA was a launch game in the west . How that's for being ready ?
ts also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged of
???. I've always known about DOOM, Hell (pardon the Pun) I still have the interview with Tom saying it was the game to get for the 32X, and having a joke at the expense of other versions lack of Music . Those were the days, Huh Tom ?. I'm not the one choosing to look over how SEGA used FPS to sell its own machines....
Only RR had any real quality than the other two but what they all did was show 3d model 2 style to the punter and how exciting it was.
I think it was more Wipeout and Tekken that doomed the Saturn . Tekken made VF look old in the GFX dept, and Wipeout just hit the trend, and well made Daytona USA look graphically sh8t in comparison
That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7
I started playing games on my ZX Spectrum 128 ZX+. Then had a Intellivision + Philips G7000 for Christmas , thanks to Old TOMS shop closing down sale .
You never know I may still even have the consoles (sadly not the ZX Spectrum) in my Loft somewhere. I've sadly been gaming since the mid 80's.
Chirst I still have my Jp Launch Saturn and Mega CD receipts from Dream machines II . Don't hit me with the FF7 bullsh8t
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Not going to go into the Saturn and multimedia since TA already said more than I wanted to on that subject. But I remember reading a interview with Peter Moore where they asked him the difference between marketing the Dreamcast in Japan and America. He said in America he wants to focus on games, in Japan they want to focus on multimedia capabilities.
Again, the Playstation did not have more multimedia capabilities than Saturn. Why was it popular? I can see why you say PS2 sold due to DVD (maybe in its first few years out), but PSone?
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Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.
Yes, hypocrites can only think along their own terms. . . I am no Sega loyalist or fanboy even though it is convenient for them to frame me that way to continue their phony arguments.
As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything.
Actually "twist" was the word that came to mind when I read his response to me. Losing argument so change the playing field lower and more ridiculous, you must know quite well how it goes. . .
The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.
Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old. I really don't care for some one a decade a more younger than me to "school me" on their totally misinformed, second hand distortion of reality they lack the objectivity or connection to fact to challenge or critically assess.
Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did.
If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did.
REALITY.
Thanks for the clarity and accuracy in this response of your's, ROJM.
Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.
Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days .
TA, friend, I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life, so please don't spin your not following what I was saying into a "cop out" on my part.
You've got the right brand and marketing and money to back it up you achieve success. That is all I'm saying. Sony did just that in the 32bit days.
How did SoA beat NCL in the west, quite clearly a consequence of the NES audience growing up and becoming teens that connected with the "cooler" and edgier" Sega brands.
And then Sony pulled something similar when those players grew up and they connected with their more sophisticated brand and marketing efforts while Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in. And then quite stupidly they did the same thing with DC.
Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.
No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self
How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max? And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol.
SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you .
SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough.
Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.
I'm the one with the marketing degree, you're the one not getting me. Sega was not making the products the newer more mainstream game audiences wanted, as you say, or that interested in. That has been at the whole point of this discussion all along.
You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming
Thanks for saving me the work and invalidating your response with that comment, friend. NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers. Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache. More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.
Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.
George, if I can clarify for you the matter of early gaming's mainstreamness, it is a question of extent and duration, and not whether there was a mainstream presence or not.
We are arguing about the extent to which gaming has been mainstream. Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad. Contrast that to Sony that took gaming to mass audiences and wider demographics and in a greatly sustained fashion. Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.
Pong was never a household word maybe you like to think it had achieved and not typically known to mainstream folk outside of geeks.
Gaming had an early flirtation with mainstream audiences that was a passing fad.
That video games were still represented in commercials with 8-bit sound effects in commercials as recent as a few years ago should be telling you something right there.
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Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old.
Is this the stuff from the school Play Ground ?. When my mum got me A Master System for Christmas she was already well past her 20's.I wouldn't say that gave her any more insight to Sega. I could be just as childish and point out that my Saturn was already 6 months old by the time the it launched in America .
All I will say it that I was there from day one, and loved the Saturn from November 1994 to this very day.
I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life
The moment anyone feels the need to say that , is when they start to lose credibility, much like using Wikpedia to back up they case, did they teach you that in Uni ?.
Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in
SEGA Mega Drive had some of the most mainstream games one could have . Countless fully licensed and endorsed sport games , Disney Games and Sonic games , That's just from SEGA.
How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max? And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol
Try up untill 1995 SEGA had the biggest share of the western video gaming market, that's even with the PS being launched in the west . And just to correct you, the FX chip wasn't great of a seller, not that SEGA didn't have is own SEGA Virtual Processor chip .
SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough
??? SF IV plays almost exatcly like it did in the 90's most of the moves and combo's are exactly the same . Its just used the Tatio Type X boards to produce stunning visuals , no different from SEGA using its Board to produce VF 5 stunning visuals .
Virtual COP has guns, even used reservoir dogs to influence its look. Did that turn it to a horrible western game ?. Gun Valkyrie has guns is a 3rd person shooter , guess you must hate it, Valkyrie of the Battlefield had guns , guess one must hate that too.
I could make a massive listt of SEGA games that had guns (Goes off to play Deep Fear)
I'm the one with the marketing
degree, you're the one not getting me
:roll:
SEGA is making games people want . In the west its Sonic , Football Manager, and in Japan its the likes of Yakuza.
NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers. Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache. More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.
NEC is one of the most respected companies around . Apple wasn't seen as super cool in the 90's, and everyone had a good laugh at Pippin. How BIG is MS brand (C'Mon you the Expert) yet its Zune was totally out sold by the I-pod its 360 outsold by the Wii, Its X-Box out sold by the PS2.
C'mon you're old enough to remember how an unknown JVC was able to outsell and smash SONY BetaMax with its VHS system (please don't tell me back inthe 80's JVC were more respected).
Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad.
It wasn't a fad. Not only did Atari sell millions of consoles, NCL carried on from when Atari left off , and the industry carried on growing . That's not a fad .
Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.
SEGA did more than most to grow consoles out of the geek kid status , with the Mega Drive. Getting film, music stars seen wearing SEGA Gear , playing Sega Consoles, Pushing the Megadrive in clubs, beach events . Sponsoring football, F1 ECT, never mind its cutting edge Pirate TV ads. That wasn't just to get kids, it was to get Adults on board, and they were many adults that bought the likes of Fifa , John Madden and Desert Strike
Its just a shame that SEGA didn't build on that, and instead left the door open for SONY
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Someone linked to this via our twitter account just now. Shows the hardcore side of SEGA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2En2RVf6s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2En2RVf6s)
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Is this the stuff from the school Play Ground ?. When my mum got me A Master System for Christmas she was already well past her 20's.I wouldn't say that gave her any more insight to Sega. I could be just as childish and point out that my Saturn was already 6 months old by the time the it launched in America .
Ueda san man, no, just no. :roll:
The fact is you were a child back then and have limited insight or connection to what happened at the time and are too childish and obstinate to admit that now.
The moment anyone feels the need to say that , is when they start to lose credibility, much like using Wikpedia to back up they case, did they teach you that in Uni ?.
How about I show you how much I got in my online trade account and you show me how much you have in yours and then you can comment on my credibility? You can comeback with calling me childish and petty (and I will admit it is petty of me), but still that would be reality. Back in the tech boom of the late 90's I had a quarter million dollar tech portfolio. I just don't feel like getting 'informed' by you guys about what happened back then. Is that fair?
Wiki didn't exist in the early 90's when I went to college, not even the internet did. Nor do I need to use Wiki, why don't you just look at the numbers I posted for you. Sega shrank and weakened as the industry grew by $10's of billions of dollars and expanded to new audiences since the brief time it led it. There is only one obvious and rational conclusion to that. . . It's obvious they didn't teach you business in your school.
SEGA Mega Drive had some of the most mainstream games one could have . Countless fully licensed and endorsed sport games , Disney Games and Sonic games , That's just from SEGA.
That was a different market in a different time nor is that relevant to it not connecting to future expanded mainstream western gaming audiences. I'm talking Saturn and DC. Mainstream western markets weren't interested in Nights, Panzer, Shenmue, Jet, Seaman, etc. Sega was stuck in old market mode. I can go find a Bernie quote saying just that. (Insert cynical "oh, you have to quote Bernie" response.)
If you ever want to argue with me the comeback that Sega would have sold out eventually and "gone mainstream" I will never argue with you about that because that is the nature of business and reality. I'm not a Sega loyalist and don't make Sega to be the 'pure saint' of gaming. Just the fucked up interesting one. . .
Try up untill 1995 SEGA had the biggest share of the western video gaming market, that's even with the PS being launched in the west . And just to correct you, the FX chip wasn't great of a seller, not that SEGA didn't have is own SEGA Virtual Processor chip .
Nintendo beat Sega in America before SoJ killed Genesis. I'm not talking U.S. and Europe but America which was the battle ground in question when the 32bit wars started in the west where Sony trounced Sega from day one.
SF IV plays almost exatcly like it did in the 90's most of the moves and combo's are exactly the same . Its just used the Tatio Type X boards to produce stunning visuals , no different from SEGA using its Board to produce VF 5 stunning visuals .
If it plays exactly like it did in the 90's then that's not saying much about it being at the cutting edge of game play. It's a massive step down in hardcore than SFIII, it was casualized, period.
Virtual COP has guns, even used reservoir dogs to influence its look. Did that turn it to a horrible western game ?. Gun Valkyrie has guns is a 3rd person shooter , guess you must hate it, Valkyrie of the Battlefield had guns , guess one must hate that too.
Irrational and absurd comparisons based in your refusal to draw or acknowledge the obvious rational conclusion.
I could make a massive listt of SEGA games that had guns (Goes off to play Deep Fear)
And that would be totally irrelevant to the point of discussion.
NEC is one of the most respected companies around .
Your flat out in denial if you want to equate the NEC brand to Sony in the eyes of consumers. Johnny Mainstream living in Midwest America don't even know NEC but he sure wants a Sony TV. . .
How BIG is MS brand (C'Mon you the Expert) yet its Zune was totally out sold by the I-pod its 360 outsold by the Wii, Its X-Box out sold by the PS2.
C'mon you're old enough to remember how an unknown JVC was able to outsell and smash SONY BetaMax with its VHS system (please don't tell me back inthe 80's JVC were more respected).
None of that is relevant to the discussion, those are each unique scenario's with their own variables the fact that you are trying to make this into some black and white rule about who will win does show your lack of insight, no offense. I am not an 'expert' but because I do have more qualifications and experience in business than any of you here I just don't want to be 'schooled' by you guys when I know at times you guys are way off skew. I can break each one of those scenario's down for you if you want before you challenge me on that, I just don't want to invest the time to do it. (Blah, blah. . . I'm copping out :roll: )
It wasn't a fad. Not only did Atari sell millions of consoles, NCL carried on from when Atari left off , and the industry carried on growing . That's not a fad .
NOA had to build from ruin in America they had to call the system an "entertainment system" and include R.O.B. to fool retailers into thinking it was not a video game system which they wouldn't touch with a 100 foot pole. I am right, buddy.
Its just a shame that SEGA didn't build on that, and instead left the door open for SONY
Sega didn't have the brand strength with the mainstream audiences that Sony enjoyed, the ones that weren't the traditonal gamer geeks and would become the new game audiences. Sega had a rep with the audiences of the old niche market (which it tarnished) but would lose it when the market expanded. . . You know the Moore/Naka F U story about the focus group research where Sega was the weird uncle no longer cool. . .
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the fact is you were a child back then and have limited insight or connection to what happened at the time and are too childish and obstinate to admit that now.
Maybe for the Master System and Mega Drive , I was a working teenager in the Saturn years . Quite grown up to know what spending £640 on a console and one game entailed.
Back in the tech boom of the late 90's I had a quarter million dollar tech portfolio
Next you're be telling us you're Bill Gates . Don't come it .
Wiki didn't exist in the early 90's when I went to college, not even the internet did
I'm sorry very sorry the Internet was around inthe early 90's
Hell I remember entering loads of number trying to get Bad Influence (early 90's UK game show) web page up in the early 90's . or maybe I was just lucky, that my school had the Internet in the early 90's
I'm talking Saturn and DC. Mainstream western markets weren't interested in Nights, Panzer, Shenmue, Jet, Seaman, etc.
I got news for you, Japan for the most part, wasn't either . And Mr Marketing Degree man, Shenmue actually sold better in the west (both Shenmue and its Sequel) than in Japan, so did JSR. Again you're all over the shop.
Nintendo beat Sega in America before SoJ killed Genesis.
For most of the Genesis life it out sold the SNES.
when the 32bit wars started in the west where Sony trounced Sega from day one.
Actually the Mega Drive out sold the PS in 1995 in the west, even Mega Drive games like Brian Lara and Football Manger could top the charts .I love the way you overlook Japan too, is that because the Saturn was outselling the PS by a massive amount,even with SONY money ? . Like I say you make a product people want, and they'll buy it . Shame SOJ did get Square onthe Saturn .
If it plays exactly like it did in the 90's then that's not saying much about it being at the cutting edge of game play. It's a massive step down in hardcore than SFIII, it was casualized, period
Yes like the 90's , where you made out that SF II was hardcore :roll: . I'll never said SF IV is the cutting Edge of play. I don't even like the game much
Irrational and absurd comparisons
or more like they all have Guns , some even play as a 3rd Person shooter . You must hate them all . Sad, I think SEGA missed the boat with GV, A much needed and improved sequel could have beaten Capcom to it .
And that would be totally irrelevant to the point of discussion
Nope, there loads of SEGA games that used guns , and I'm sure you're old enough to remember the Light phaser, the Stunner, the menacer. Oh yes SEGA love its Guns be in the Arcades or the Home . I'm sure Gun Valkyrie was even going to use the DC light gun for its control . That would have been cool a 3rd person shooter controlled by a Gun its self
If you don't like Modern games for Guns, then you must have hated the Master System, The Mega Drive, the Saturn and DC . Shame that
Your flat out in denial if you want to equate the NEC brand to Sony in the eyes of consumers
Oh No I'm not NEC were and are massive , with millions more cash inthe bank than SEGA. And you are old enough to remember SEGA having a complete kicking with the Master System in the USA (what was it less than 2% market share) Yet SEGA was able to beat NCL in the USA in the 16 bits day's , with less money and less brand creed with the USA consumers.
None of that is relevant to the discussion
No they're all relevant . All showing where the bigger more established company is sometimes out done by a smaller corp . The VHS VS BetaMax is one of the most famous in History ,and next to no-one knew of JVC before hand.
End Of Line
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East, when you are wrong you just say its not relevant. You have lost. For a guy that claims to be 100 years old when the Saturn came out, you sure don't know much.
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TA, it's difficult for me to respond to you because you trap my statements in a lot of generalizations and distortions I'm not making.
Oh No I'm not NEC were and are massive , with millions more cash inthe bank than SEGA.
TA you're being silly. NEC's investment in gaming was chump change compared to what Sony poured into it, stop equating the two. I don't even know what this comparison is about anymore.
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I've never really been following this conversation seriously but what the hell are you guys even arguing about anyway?
That SEGA is doing worse than before, or that games aren't fun anymore?
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I've never really been following this conversation seriously but what the hell are you guys even arguing about anyway?
I honestly started asking myself that a few pages ago.
Like I say you make a product people want, and they'll buy it
TA must have a marketing degree. . . that is the essence of marketing. Drawing by your own statement, if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.
Here you go, guys:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/0 ... interview/ (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/05/29/naoya_tsurumi_interview/)
So why did North America fail Sega? Tsurumi has a simple answer -- it's because players went with titles from other makers. Games like Assassin's Creed II and Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 had strong sales in North America. They ate into Sega's own titles, said Tsurumi.
Tsurumi feels that games of the above form with Hollywood-style production values can sell well in the North American market. He brought up Final Fantasy XIII as evidence of this. The market for "movie-like games" in Europe and North America is expanding, he said.[/size]
There you go! :P :afroman: :mrgreen:
Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!
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Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!
Yeah, the SEGA CD never existed, I agree.
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TA must have a marketing degree. . . that is the essence of marketing. Drawing by your own statement, if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.
Isn't SEGA one of the most successful Publishers in the industry today though? If not, certainly one of the largest.
They aren't Activision or Nintendo, granted, but they are certainly top ten material.
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SEGA came in 6th place in the west. I do not know how they are niche at all.
East said that Sony killed SEGA Saturn and Dreamcast, due to having more money and 'mainstream appeal'. That SEGA was too hardcore. But TA brought up that FPS, license games and sports games where part of SEGA since the 16-bit days.
Also, other companies with more money have tried to get into gaming and failed. Microsoft's xbox last gen, NEC with their consoles. Money does not equal success in the industry.
SEGA fucking delayed Bayonetta due to MW2, ALL PUBLISHERS did this though, so SEGA had to release a new IP with a ton of sequels from other publishers. Seriously, DMC did about the same number when it came out as Bayonetta. I would not consider the game a 'niche' game at all, it did over a million.
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Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!
Yeah, the SEGA CD never existed, I agree.
LOL, You couldn't make it up, could you .
That's why SEGA also put in over 10 million pounds in its thenNew Multi Media Studio in the 90's ,for SOA to work on FMV games and big licensed games like Jurassic Park SEGA CD. Oh no a Big name Film Licensed game isn't mainstream at all , and the likes of TomCatAlley, Surgical Strike, Midnight Raiders ECT never had Hollywood Production vales, and most certainly wasn't cinematic, even though they were completely FMV :roll: .
if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.
Mr Marketing man , VF is a complete success in the Arcades, Yakuza a million selling brand in Japan , Sonic a million selling brand in West, Sonic Vs Mario a multi-Million selling brand, Football Manager a massive brand in Europe , and even the likes of Bayonetta a million selling brand new IP . Not bad , when no-one wants your product .
NEC's investment in gaming was chump change compared to what Sony poured into it, stop equating the two. I don't even know what this comparison is about anymore.
Don't come it , Its shows how a smaller corp can beat a bigger corp. What about Phillips to ?? Inventor of the CD, a world renowned and respect brand in all the Major markets (especially inthe west) , and again a company far bigger and with far more money than SEGA.
Yet SEGA once again not only beat Philips for Market share, they beat them for better technology too. And don't kid your self Phillips didn't put millions and millions into the CDI project
Now its clear, you've lost the Argument, on so many levels not least SEGA being Mainstream and Hollywood with its Mega Drive Mega CD productions,or how the Sega Saturn was a true Multi Media console.
You know the thing about Uni, Its nothing compared to Life experience and living in the real world . Sadly most will know SEGA did so much to kill its self inthe 90's , not SONY. Dreamcast that was different , but the brand and image damage was already done then sadly
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You do not understand. A company, can do other stuff and be huge in it, does not mean you will get respect in all fields. It is quite obvious that Nintendo and SEGA did not care much for Sony. SEGA refused to do a console with them, thought they where no threat and did not want them 'mooching' off the SEGA brand name.
Sony brand name in video games was shit. They did some small hits. I think the only game I liked from them was Smartball. Regardless, if SEGA thought of Sony as a threat, they would have taken the 'splitting profit/debt' for their 32 bit console in half.
Sony even let SEGA keep 100% of profits for their games, Sony kept theirs (good thing considering Sony's video game development studios sucked ass).
You act like Sony in the early 90's is the same Sony as today.
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Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were.
I do sometimes wonder if you ever owned a Saturn, or ever took much Interest in it . Saturn not meant or never marked as a Multi Media device ?. That would explain the Saturn mighty and impressive CD front end: Those 2 Left and Right polygons blobs that reacted in tune to any music being played, the fact that the face buttons on the Saturn, had symbols for play pause, Forward ECT, Hell you could even alter the pitch of the music track, or tack the vocals out of the music , All in the Saturn's front end for ones music CD's.
Unlike SONY PS every SEGA Saturn was able to play Video CD's and display Photo CD's through a Add on . The only way to play Video CD's on the PS, was to buy the limited edition Asian model. One could also buy a Disc Drive, Keyboard, even Surf the web through the Saturn various adds ons
SEGA Saturn was Multi Media alright.
Yawn. The twister keeps on twisting. SOJ never marketed the saturn as a multimedia machine at all. SOA tried to market the saturn as a multimedia system and as a rival or succesor to the 3DO before launch before playing its MM features down after the Sony onslaught. I know this because I was there unlike you who obviously picked up the Saturn way after the event. And when someone says the words, "they didn't market the system as a multimedia device" does not mean it didn't have multimedia features. Understand that? Because the fact you think it does by pointing out those features thinks that it somehow proves a point when the point whether or not it had them was never in dispute. I may add that 80 percent of saturn owners didn't buy or knew about the MM add ons existed actually proves my point that the system wasn't marketed as a MM device but more of a games machine which had those features. just like the MD before it. Sony PS2 was marketed as an MM device and the 360 was marketed the same. Internal features readily made available too i may add. Not stuff that would turn your system into doing MM things. :roll:
And I do remember SEGA Europe no lease , advertising the Video CD player in SEGA Saturn Magazine, No less
Yeah that's sega japan. :roll: Next time try reading and understanding english. SOJ stands for Sega of japan. Is there an A in SOJ? Or an E in SOJ? If your the example of todays gaming generation its no wonder gaming went to pot during the early noughties.
No that's why my Japan Launch Dreamcast came with a lovely Browser CD , Why SEGA Europe spent millions on DreamAera , Yeo Internet was there only to enhance games :roll: . The fact remains the Only current console (be it hand held or Home console) one can't Surf the Web on is the 360, You Surf the web on the Wii.
You didn't get a DC at launch day. So stop lying please. And online functions again does not make the system multimedia. You might as well call the megadrive a multimedia device too with the internet functions made available to it. Dreamarena was ultimatly there to enhance your gaming experience. The VMU was there to enhance the gaming experience. That was its primarly function. That was the point in including them there in the first place. Like i said I know its hard to imagine a games system before you started to play games after FF7 that its sole purpose was to just play games or its main focus was to play games. But you see there are people here who remember that a games machine use to be just that and not a glorified all in one system. Yes the DC had online but it was there to serve the gameplay. The DC focus was to play games. That was the point. Anyone saying that it wasn't obviously never brought a DC until AFTER the event and have been obviously influenced by the multimedia systems that they happen to own.
And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience
The BluRay Playback on the PS3 is perfect . I really don't get the silly DMC Comment, its a game, not a Film. But yes the 1st game was quite a memorable experience.
No because what you do is take peoples comments out of context to make yourself look good. The PS3 is a multimedia device. Marketed as one. Never as a games machine. Once you face up to that fact we can all live in peace.
NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else?
You've got the cheek to make out people Twist Things after that ?. NEC as a company was always bigger than SEGA, and had more money inthe Ban . Then and now NEC is a Electronic Giant, just like SONY.
Yes that's why you deliberatly twisting it and making out that I said NEC when i specifically said NEC games division. You really are a joke, kid. As for me twisting things, i don't have the reputation. At least three people besides myself have said that you twist people's comments at least two in here and one person who's a mod at Seganerds and this place or was a mod at SN should i say. So don't bother trying to tarnish people with the same brush. I don't need to twist things because I have experience and knowledge on my side, so i know what the truth is. You on the other hand do not. Its strange is it not that when you try to do the "i know everything" stuff to people who actually was playing games at the period where you claim to be, your arguments are torn apart by them. You can fool some of the people i think the expression goes....
we want to play your silly little game, How small and how much Money did Sony Computer Entertainment have ?. Not much from what I recall, didn't even have their own floor when developing the SNES CD.
NEC games division didn't have more money than Sega. that's a fact. Do you really think that a company with stockholders would be allowed to take its profits from one part of its buisness and pour it into one division that isn't making money and more importantly doesn't make more money that its electronics division? But again I made it clear that i was talking about the games department but you purposely include the entire company as a childish way to win the argument. Bringing in Sony or MS especially the latter who made so many losses in its game division during the Xbox era but didn't manage to effect the main buisness of the corp. Using your child logic then MS wins by default because they are at that time of 2003/2005 were valued and making a lot more money as a whole than sony ever was. But in reality both nintendo and sony GAMES division were posting profits compared to Microsoft's division. And like that NEC games division were profitable in japan but Sega was making more money worldwide.
ega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one.
Wait SEGA was meant to be this small corp with no money, and not able to take on any Electronic Giants. Thanks for proving my point .
And unless you lived in America at the time, I really don't how one can comment on NEC adverts, or lack of
See. If you were playing games during the eighties then you'd know Sega had money. I know that since you've been playing games sega has had little to no money to play with but what me and Sega style are talking about is BEFORE the PSX era. Specifically before the FF7 era when sega was still a big company. I know its confusing to someone like you who are only use to a certain way of things to think that it has always been the case.Anyway back to the question.
Easy because I have the american magazines and comics from that period and the NEC adverts are lacking. Nintendo was dominant up to the late 91 by 91 onwards Sega adverts started to dominate and became more dominat after 92 onwards. Gaming magazines most of the advertising were for nintendo to sega games with not even a handful for NEC. And TV NEC was hardly a force. Now let's use logic again. Advertising costs money. NEC games division supposedly had more money than sega. Yet sega adverts dominated NEC at the launch of the genesis and throughout its launch year to 95 before sony PSX came up.
Now instead of speculating why can't you answer that? The reason why is basically the reason why you misquote others with nonsense and other falsehoods and with answers that has nothing to do with the question. You don't know. Because you weren't there playing games at that time.
And really "No money"? That's why sega was busting out some advanced arcade tech with some of the games it was releasing from the frigging R60 to the hologram games from the mid to late eighties or that it had enough money to bring its systems to three markets while NEC didn't even bother with the other two. Yeah they really had more money than sega. :lol:
NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period
??. PC Engine had a long LifeSpan in Japan and sold over 6 million units. Better life span and double the userbase of the Mega Drive in Japan for sure .
The PC engine was dead by 91. But keep downloading mean machines and get a false impression on what really happened just because they kept going on about it back then.
Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states.
There's a great open interview with SEGA America staff in this Months Retro Gamer (with SOA Vice President of Tech 1993/1997 and Senior Producer of SOA 1990/1994) . Yes that right people who worked in Technical Dept on the 32X . I suggest you read it , its quite fascinating . And shows how wrong you really are.
In Their words
"Frankly, the 32X just made us look greedy and dumb to consumers"
What, the fact that when you release a brand new system with an estabilshed brand name with NO follow ups to games that were popular on the previous system to get that userbase installed to the new machine was down to the 32X? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No it was SOJ. SOJ commisned the idea of the 32x not SOA. SOJ stopped any development on certain big SOA titles. SOJ held off any SONIC games until it was too late. SOJ is to blame for the saturn's demise not the 32x. You might as well say that's the main reason many SNES owners ended up getting the PSX as well because of the 32X. You can read your silly hindsight magazines and think you are getting the story but you are not. Anyone one who knows anything about Sega knows it was down to SOJ and SOJ alone. If anyoneone had a chance to make the saturn a hit kalinske was. But we all know what happned there and we all know how succesful other SOA presidents has been since he left.
People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in.
What are you on about ?. VF II was brought out as soon as it was ready, weeks after it 1st shipped in Japan, and Daytona USA was a launch game in the west . How that's for being ready ?
Those games came out in late 94 so it took nearly a year and a half for them to be released on Saturn and by that time it was already too late.And please a buggy VF1 and a daytona port that was never up to scrath didn't do Sega any favours.
ts also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged of
???. I've always known about DOOM, Hell (pardon the Pun) I still have the interview with Tom saying it was the game to get for the 32X, and having a joke at the expense of other versions lack of Music . Those were the days, Huh Tom ?. I'm not the one choosing to look over how SEGA used FPS to sell its own machines....
Sure you did mate sure you did. Funny in all the 32x arguments we ever had you never brought it up.Discovered it in last month's retro mag eh? :lol:
I think it was more Wipeout and Tekken that doomed the Saturn . Tekken made VF look old in the GFX dept, and Wipeout just hit the trend, and well made Daytona USA look graphically sh8t in comparison
The PSX was in the lead by then :roll: IE the word launch. You see you can't even get that right. Those games were the ones that sold the PSX to the public AT LAUNCH, and i remember they were all over the place back then. You'd remember that if you were playing games back then and not after FF7.
That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7
I started playing games on my ZX Spectrum 128 ZX+. Then had a Intellivision + Philips G7000 for Christmas , thanks to Old TOMS shop closing down sale .
You never know I may still even have the consoles (sadly not the ZX Spectrum) in my Loft somewhere. I've sadly been gaming since the mid 80's.
Chirst I still have my Jp Launch Saturn and Mega CD receipts from Dream machines II . Don't hit me with the FF7 bullsh8t
When someone comes up with the carp you just did, its obvious that you hit a raw nerve.
Like i said please leave the arguments about old gaming to the people who were actually experiencing it at the time.
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Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.
Yes, hypocrites can only think along their own terms. . . I am no Sega loyalist or fanboy even though it is convenient for them to frame me that way to continue their phony arguments.
As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything.
Actually "twist" was the word that came to mind when I read his response to me. Losing argument so change the playing field lower and more ridiculous, you must know quite well how it goes. . .
The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.
Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old. I really don't care for some one a decade a more younger than me to "school me" on their totally misinformed, second hand distortion of reality they lack the objectivity or connection to fact to challenge or critically assess.
Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did.
If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did.
REALITY.
Thanks for the clarity and accuracy in this response of your's, ROJM.
Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.
Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days .
TA, friend, I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life, so please don't spin your not following what I was saying into a "cop out" on my part.
You've got the right brand and marketing and money to back it up you achieve success. That is all I'm saying. Sony did just that in the 32bit days.
How did SoA beat NCL in the west, quite clearly a consequence of the NES audience growing up and becoming teens that connected with the "cooler" and edgier" Sega brands.
And then Sony pulled something similar when those players grew up and they connected with their more sophisticated brand and marketing efforts while Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in. And then quite stupidly they did the same thing with DC.
Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.
No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self
How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max? And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol.
SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you .
SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough.
Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.
I'm the one with the marketing degree, you're the one not getting me. Sega was not making the products the newer more mainstream game audiences wanted, as you say, or that interested in. That has been at the whole point of this discussion all along.
You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming
Thanks for saving me the work and invalidating your response with that comment, friend. NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers. Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache. More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.
Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.
George, if I can clarify for you the matter of early gaming's mainstreamness, it is a question of extent and duration, and not whether there was a mainstream presence or not.
We are arguing about the extent to which gaming has been mainstream. Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad. Contrast that to Sony that took gaming to mass audiences and wider demographics and in a greatly sustained fashion. Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.
Pong was never a household word maybe you like to think it had achieved and not typically known to mainstream folk outside of geeks.
Gaming had an early flirtation with mainstream audiences that was a passing fad.
That video games were still represented in commercials with 8-bit sound effects in commercials as recent as a few years ago should be telling you something right there.
Certainly in regards to Nintendo but not totally with Sega. Remember sega automatically appealed to an older gamer who was tired of playing the NES and was more likely playing the arcades and that was the audience sega intially captured with the genesis around its launch. But they quickly had to appeal to outside that base and demographic when they intially wasn't going beyond their sales target. EA really was bringing in older gamers(college frat boys) by releasing amiga style games and the sports titles) But beyond that Sega as you said didn't bring in anyone beyond that because they didn't need to. Also to appeal to middle america, sega went backwards by making their image family freindly during the mid nineties led by poster boy Sonic which IMO cost them a lot of their core base and people who originally got the system because of their rebellous image they portrayed after their inital launch.
Gaming was mainstream but it wasn't culturally mainstream. You saw a tv show in the eighties and nineties and a game was playing in the background. But it was just that in the background. They did not emphasise what it was or what it was playing. by the time we get to the mid to late nineties, the games are part of the culture, people emphasising the games system and what game it is and the producer knew by saying a particular word of a brand and character that the audfience would automatically get it.
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SOJ never marketed the saturn as a multimedia machine at all.
SEGA promoted the Sega Saturn as a Multi Media System. You don't think SOJ didn't promote and push the Net Link, the Video CD card ?, Hell it even done a deal with Hitachi to allow them to release thier own Hi-Saturn or Saturn Nav.
Anyone that owns a launch Jp Saturn with have a Manual displaying the planned add ons (disc drive Ect) and the the various CD+G, or Videos the SEGA Saturn was able to play . Pop in a Music CD, or use the Video CD and see how the marked face Saturn buttons work, just like a normal dictated player. You know that why the Saturn had a Cartridge Input as well as Bay for the Video CD cart, for its planned Multi Media add ons :roll: .
Remember sega automatically appealed to an older gamer who was tired of playing the NES and was more likely playing the arcades and that was the audience sega intially captured with the genesis around its launch
Yes SEGA were smart to appeal and recognise the importance of the Older gamer, but to get the kind of Marketshare the Mega Drive did inthe west, you had to appeal to the main stream, and that's something SEGA did brilliantly inthe West . With clever advertising and big Film or Sport endorsed games, to go along with the likes of Sonic .
SONY were just clever to carry that on, and SEGA completely dumb not too.
Also to appeal to middle america, sega went backwards by making their image family freindly during the mid nineties led by poster boy Sonic which IMO cost them a lot of their core base and people who originally got the system because of their rebellous image they portrayed after their inital launch.
Not really so. SEGA didn't ban Blood in its Mortal Kombat, the blood and Spew in its Street Fighter II like NCL did . SEGA played on the fact that saintly NCL wouldn't t bring out a game like Night Trap on its system, it even created a special Deep water brand at the end, for games like Eternal Champions . SEGA played on its 'Other side Image right through the Mega Drive life.
Gaming was mainstream but it wasn't culturally mainstream.
Its just progress , with the wide spread use of the PC's or the Internet. Back in the 80's people had about 1 or maybe 2 TV's now its a TV in every room, a DVD player in every room ,even a Computer these days . Living standards have shot up . So we seen far more people buy TV's , Video/DVD computers/consoles. That's not thanks to SONY but more the western lifestyle.
Yeah that's sega japan
Oh dear, how some forget the flyer's that would appear in Japanese Saturn titles. Sometimes they would promote the Saturn Multi Media add ons .
You didn't get a DC at launch day. So stop lying please
What are you on about ?. I still have my Launch Japanese Dreamcast. And in that one got a lovely free Internet Browser CD, not for games, but to surf the web
You might as well call the megadrive a multimedia device too with the internet functions made available to it
I remember SEGA liked to call it a Computer at one stage .
Dreamarena was ultimatly there to enhance your gaming experience. The VMU was there to enhance the gaming experience.
DreamAera was there for the social aspect. Not really to do with gaming
SEGA were doing deals with Swatch, Virgin Cinema ECT all about pushing the connectivity of the DC, checking e-mails was nothing to do with gaming . Speaking of VMU, I'm sure you remember SEGA Japan showing off its planned VMU MP3 player.
I really don't get what is your problem with the term Multi- Media . My Mobile is a MP3 player , a Camera, Buts its still a bloody fine Mobile phone. Hell you can even player games on SKY Digital, but its still able to receive satellite signals. Its just the way consumer products have been going for years .
The 360 and PS3 are still more games machines, than they are music players and why most people will in the end buy them
Yes the DC had online but it was there to serve the gameplay. The DC focus was to play games
Every console is made to play games 1st and foremost . That's why companies like MS and SONY put so much money into development of the CPU and GPU's, never mind millions and millions into Games development .
You know one can take photo's play music on the Nintendo DSi, Does that make it any less of a handheld games machine ?
AFTER the event and have been obviously influenced by the multimedia systems that they happen to own
You never owned a Import Mega Drive or Mega CD, have you ?. You should see what SEGA Japan wrote on the boxes . Terms like Multi Purpose Use , High Quality Computer CD-Rom Player .
I take it you never bough the SEGA Karaoke add Ons for the Mega CD or the Dreamcast ?. Don't tell me , they were all about games :roll: .
The PS3 is a multimedia device. Marketed as one. Never as a games machine
So was the Saturn. But like with the Saturn, the PS3 main focus is to play games.
NEC when i specifically said NEC games division.
Which is a part of NEC. A corp much bigger that SEGA. You make it sound like SONY Computer Ent was massive at the start . It didn't even have a Headquarters and had to use the Music Division . What next MS Games division isn't part of Microsoft , and can;t count on MS billions to help them out , or fund their projects ?
Do you really think that a company with stockholders would be allowed to take its profits from one part of its buisness and pour it into one division that isn't making money and more importantly doesn't make more money that its electronics division?
Well its seems to be working a treat of MS stockholders . How much did the X-Box lose for Microsoft Entertainment divisions , over 3 billion wasn't it . Luclky they had uncle Bill to bail them out . When was the last time SONY Computer Entertainment Division made money ?. Lucky the other sides of the SONY can take the flack .
NEC games division didn't have more money than Sega. that's a fact
Its a fact that NCL had more money than SEGA. Yet than never stopped SEGA
nd Sega style are talking about is BEFORE the PSX era. Specifically before the FF7 era when sega was still a big company.
SEGA had quite a bit of money in the 32 bit days and was a Big company . Some say that Panzer Dragoon Saga and the 1st Panzer Dragoon were the most expensive console games develop at the time
Easy because I have the american magazines and comics from that period and the NEC adverts are lacking.
They were crap, but unless you livied in America and watched TV weekly, one could really comment on the lack of TurboGrafx Adverts.
The PC engine was dead by 91
PC Engine enjoyed fine support way past 91 and well into the mid 90's . And btw Mean Machines never covered the NEC PC-Eng :roll:
And really "No money"? That's why sega was busting out some advanced arcade tech with some of the games it was releasing from the frigging R60 to the hologram games from the mid to late eighties or that it had enough money to bring its systems to three markets while NEC didn't even bother with the other two. Yeah they really had more money than sega
I'm not the one the one making out SEGA was this poor little corp, that couldn't take on the Big Boys . As for your point about Tech, how was the 1st Corp to bring out the world 1st CD games system for the Home, how created one of the most advanced and expensive hand Held systems the world had ever seen with the GT and its
How did SNK come up with a console and Arcade hardware that smashed the Mega Dive and Snes to bits for tech , when they were always a smaller company ?. You want to talk Arcades , I think Konami Speed King beat G-Loc 360 as the most expensive Coin-up , and that NAMCO still holds the record for the largest Arcade ride ever made with its Galaxian 3 . We can all list Huge coin ups from the glory days of Arcades
What, the fact that when you release a brand new system with an estabilshed brand name with NO follow ups to games that were popular on the previous system to get that userbase installed to the new machine was down
I really can't remember the Mega Drive launching with many sequels to Master systems games, I think the 360 launched with just 1 sequel to an established X-Box game , and the PS3 with one it's self,and well the Cube with 1 too
SOJ held off any SONIC games until it was too late. SOJ is to blame for the Saturn's demise not the 32x.
For the last time , SOA canned Sonic on the Saturn . SOJ actually allowed its production, just wouldn't allow the NiGHTS engine to be used, they is a massive difference.
SOJ commisned the idea of the 32x not SOA.
Well Yes Mars came out of the Jupiter idea ,and SOA wanting to expanded the life span of the Mega Drive
You might as well say that's the main reason many SNES owners ended up getting the PSX as well because of the 32X
I think it was more to do with NCL dropping and humiliating SONY SNES CD Drive in 1991 ,don't you ?
SONY even kept the name Playstation just to add insult. You can thank NCL for that .
Those games came out in late 94 so it took nearly a year and a half for them to be released on Saturn and by that time it was already too late.
Saturn came out in Nov 1994, VF was ready for launch Saturn Daytona USA came out in April 95 . It does take a few months to covert a Coin Up you know,more so when they're running on one of the most Advanced games of all time . Saturn VF II came out in Dec 1995 after 7 months of development time and inthe same year of VF II inthe Arcades .
AM#2 were working flat out to make sure the Saturn ports were ready in time. So much so Yu Suzuki said even said he was powering down AM#2 arcade side, to focus on getting Saturn games done
Funny in all the 32x arguments we ever had you never brought it up
I even scaned it in for you . Remember you trying to make out, they weren't my scans ?
The PSX was in the lead by then :roll: IE the word launc
That's clever since Wipeout was a launch game . Sega Saturn and Daytona USA had already been out of over 3 months before hand, still not enough
When someone comes up with the carp you just did, its obvious that you hit a raw nerve
No, Its obvious I speak the truth
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Gaming died when Pong was released in arcades. Unless it runs on Punch-cards and requires switches and dials to play, it's not real gaming.
I don't expect any of you noobs to understand, etc etc
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Did not know that PS3 was not a gaming machine. I shall throw away my 30+ games I own for the bluray player.
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You guys just need to face the facts that games stopped being hardcore once I had more to do in my life than play nothing but them. I am older than some of you so my opinion is more realistic. I am allowed to play one release in a whole series and say the franchise sucks overall.
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Did not know that PS3 was not a gaming machine. I shall throw away my 30+ games I own for the bluray player.
Same here , and I'm going to get rid of all my 360 games and SKY Digital and just use my 360 as a SKY satellite receiver, because the 360 and PS3 aren't games machines . While I'm at it, cancel my contract with 02, because my Mobile isn't a Mobile at all . Its in a fact a camera, not wait its a Radio, no wait.. its a MP3 player, no wait it's... a 'Hardcore' games machine and the best there is. WHY?, because it can play Mega Drive games :lol: