SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: crackdude on August 29, 2010, 08:48:14 pm
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It's in portuguese from Eurogamer.pt
It's not up in the english site yet.
Takashi Iizuka, director da Sonic Team e produtor do Nights original, revelou o desejo de desenvolver um terceiro jogo da série que foi lançada originalmente na Sega Saturn e que teve uma sequela para a Nintendo Wii com Nights: Journey of Dreams.
"Pesoalmente gostaria muito de fazer um terceiro jogo de Nights, mas a decisão irá depender sempre da SEGA," disse Iizuka.
A respeito de Journey of Dreams, Iizuka comentou que, "Com a versão Wii introduzimos gráficos que não eram possíveis nos dias da Saturn, pelo que nesse sentido o objectivo da equipa foi conseguido. Ficámos realmente contentes com o resultado."
O director da Sonic Team falou também do seu interesse por outros jogos, desta vez relacionados com Sonic, mas cujo o futuro parece mais complicado. Quando lhe perguntaram sobre um título dedicado exclusivamente a Tails ou a Knuckles, ele afirmou que, "Já pensei em ambos no passado, e actualmente até considerei fazer um jogo tipo Knuckles Chaotix, mas infelizmente a SEGA não me deu luz verde."
Actualmente Takashi Iizuka encontra-se a trabalhar em Sonic The Hedgehog 4 e Sonic Colours.
He says that "personally I'd really like to make a third NiGHTS game, but it all depends on SEGA."
He was really happy for NiGHTS on the Wii cause they managed to generate graphics that were not possible in the Saturn days.
He also commented on Sonic games involving secondary characters, stating that "recently I considered making a game like Knuckles Chaotix, but sadly SEGA didn't give me a green light".
More on this once the english article is up maybe..
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Go for it! ^___^ The world needs more NiGHTS!
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I'd take another NiGHTs under some strict conditions...
1) NiGHTS itself should NEVER talk... NEVER.
2) No non NiGHTS gameplay
3)Bring back the ability to go around a track multiple times to improve score.
With that, I would welcome more NiGHTS. JoD had brilliant level design and music so it is all very possible.
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I really enjoyed the one on Wii, and would definitely be up for another one.
The level where you hit the notes to play Dreams, Dreams really did it for me.
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http://www.segabits.com/?p=3667 (http://www.segabits.com/?p=3667)
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Thanks SEGA for not giving the OK for a own Knuckles game!!
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Dear Sega,
Please lock this man in the basement and don't let him ruin any more series to the point where they can never be saved.
Thanks.
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It's great news Journey of Dreams bombed so hard. He won't be allowed to touch the game anymore. Bastard.
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Found out the original source at gamesTM!
As it turns out this is week-old news. How this wasn't ravaged about everywhere I have no idea.
Anyway: http://http://www.gamestm.co.uk/discuss/sonic-teams-takashi-iizuka-wants-to-make-nights-3-knuckles-chaotix-2/
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Dear Sega,
Please lock this man in the basement and don't let him ruin any more series to the point where they can never be saved.
Thanks.
It's great news Journey of Dreams bombed so hard. He won't be allowed to touch the game anymore. Bastard.
So if Sonic Colours turns out to be a good Sonic game can I stop having to see this crap multiple times in every Sonic thread please?
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I did post that Sega Neptune, at the time I thought that was the big Sega news that they were announcing on Twitter.
I guess, it might be OK if Takashi Iizuka was only the producer and not the director. He's peaked at Sonic Adventure 2, then never reached the same heights.
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http://www.segabits.com/?p=3667
Nice pick :)
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Dear Sega,
Please lock this man in the basement and don't let him ruin any more series to the point where they can never be saved.
Thanks.
It's great news Journey of Dreams bombed so hard. He won't be allowed to touch the game anymore. Bastard.
So if Sonic Colours turns out to be a good Sonic game can I stop having to see this crap multiple times in every Sonic thread please?
Does he really deserve all the blame for the failure of NiGHTS2?
Sega made the executive decision for the game to be released for the Wii, and the team wasn't allowed an extension, they had to make the dead line.
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The terrible ideas that are the core gameplay of the game certainly aren't the executives fault.
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The terrible ideas that are the core gameplay of the game certainly aren't the executives fault.
Nor the deadline, something simple as removing the score attack of the previous game is not something caused by executives or deadlines. I would also not place the blame for voice acting with unskippable cutscenes at either's doorstep.
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Aki-at and Orta summed it up nicely, some things are just inherintly bad ideas.
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Giving Sonic Team a year to make the game was the executives fault. No time to tweak or focus group it. Not all of the ideas are bad in concept, just in execution. The voice acting was painful, but the rest could have been fine if executed properly.
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Giving Sonic Team a year to make the game was the executives fault. No time to tweak or focus group it. Not all of the ideas are bad in concept, just in execution. The voice acting was painful, but the rest could have been fine if executed properly.
Glitches was not the problem with NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams and most of it was executed properly, but you still removed the score attack of the original game, this was such a major turn off for the fanbase that it is neither the fault of the executives or the deadline. The platforming was dreadful as well, the only time something like that is fine is during the opening segment of the stage, why add something that was never in the original and was not even the point of it? It played fine, it was just incredibly dull and tedious.
And keep in mind the original 360 version of the game was poorly recieved behind closed downs as well, that's one of the reason it changed platforms.
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SEGA screwed up when they thought it would be a good idea to give this such a heavy budget and allow so many elements that were basically perfect before be tweaked to shit. Everyone loved the first game, just port it to the XBLA and have NiGHTS in the backgrounds of some stuff still, this would have all been fine.
Sonic Team ruined the franchise's name though. The newer fans are strange and scaring away the old ones while the ones that are there now are just going to devour themselves or move on after not too long. No one will even care that much if another one gets made. It is a lost cause.
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Giving Sonic Team a year to make the game was the executives fault. No time to tweak or focus group it. Not all of the ideas are bad in concept, just in execution. The voice acting was painful, but the rest could have been fine if executed properly.
Glitches was not the problem with NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams and most of it was executed properly, but you still removed the score attack of the original game, this was such a major turn off for the fanbase that it is neither the fault of the executives or the deadline. The platforming was dreadful as well, the only time something like that is fine is during the opening segment of the stage, why add something that was never in the original and was not even the point of it? It played fine, it was just incredibly dull and tedious.
And keep in mind the original 360 version of the game was poorly recieved behind closed downs as well, that's one of the reason it changed platforms.
If the platforming were well thought out it would have been fine. There is absolutely no reason not to expand the premise of the game two generations down the line, so long as done properly. There is plenty of potential with platforming, if they put it into the game properly. I don't mean tweaking, necessarily, I mean doing it right. Coming up with some concept or raison d'etre. If they had a good reason for platforming, story wise, and executed it properly (which is to say, designed it well), there is no reason not to include it. The problems are in execution, not conception. The only real concept problems I see are voice acting and the above lamented time attack. Just remaking the game is lazy.
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If the platforming were well thought out it would have been fine. There is absolutely no reason not to expand the premise of the game two generations down the line, so long as done properly.
Expand it in a way that is in no way part of the original formula? That is not very good for a series, let alone the first sequel for the title. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles expanded in everywhere possible, that is to compliment the original gameplay, NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams did not.
There is plenty of potential with platforming, if they put it into the game properly. I don't mean tweaking, necessarily, I mean doing it right. Coming up with some concept or raison d'etre. If they had a good reason for platforming, story wise, and executed it properly (which is to say, designed it well), there is no reason not to include it. The problems are in execution, not conception. The only real concept problems I see are voice acting and the above lamented time attack.
Whether there is potential in platforming or not is not the point, this is not what was core to the success of the original NiGHTS was, none of us remember it for the platforming. If they wished to do that, apply it to another series that desperately needs it now (See Sonic the Hedgehog) but NiGHTS was not in anyway designed around platforming.
And even if we do want to discuss platforming, the team that developed NiGHTS happened to develop platforming stages for Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, both games with bigger budget and longer development time than NiGHTS, however neither showed any real quality when it came to a platformer.
Just remaking the game is lazy.
And that is not what I asked for. But changing the direction of the game is not the way to go, it's what caused the eventually and total decline of Sonic the Hedgehog. The original NiGHTS in no way was a platformer, why should they add that in? Just because it's two generation from the original? Might as well ask for guns and driving cars and allow Ryo to run people over in Shenmue 3 when it comes out for the Xbox 720
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The platforming was an extra feature in the original NiGHTS. It was most likely the last thing they added to the game too I think.
The problem with the platforming in Journey of Dreams was that it was forced and was specifically the opposite of what all of the fans wanted to do. To make matters worse they even made it way less interesting altogether by boxing in the sections you can go to as the children. What was the point of this? I can only think it is to force players to try that section out less than they would otherwise.
It is just Sonic Team's style to constantly add weird shit that no one asked for. The masks in Journey of Dreams is a good example. They spent a lot of time working on that and no one liked it in the end.
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Aki- You didn't ask for it, but it seemed like SU did. I may be mistaken by reading too fast. If I did I'm sorry.
Sonic Heroes wasn't a terrible platformer. It got a bad rap at the time because it wasn't up to snuff with Adventure 1 or 2. It posted average to respectable scores (7s), and was the best selling Sonic game till, what, Olympic Games? And Shadow's problems had more to do with guns, voice acting (and the prerequisite script) and glitches.
The difference between a platformer and whatever you consider NiGHTS to be isn't that significant. Its not the leap from say Sonic to Shadow. It isn't that hard at all to imagine having to rescue NiGHTS or something as one of the characters in a well thought out platforming segment of the game. Especially if its a windy level, ala whatever the hell the name of the second act in Sonic Adventure was, where you spend a good bit of time dicking with vents. I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of the game, but its completely feasible, in my opinion. It could very well compliment the...er...not platforming NiGHTS sections.
Likewise, the masks could have been a very fun and interesting element to the gameplay, had they been more varied and put to more interesting use. You'll notice a similar gimmick with Sonic Colours, and thus far it doesn't seem to be a very despised feature of the game.
I'm not saying that games should mimic one another - Shenmue shouldn't become Grand Theft Auto. I am saying that I wouldn't expect Shenmue 3 to be the exact same gameplay as Shenmue 1 or 2 with better graphics. There is new technology at their disposal. They can use it. Using new resources and capabilities on a gaming platform doesn't mean masquerading behind more successful franchises. It means expanding a making something unique.
If the masks and platforming had been well thought out and more seamless, I tend to doubt people would complain much. Its like saying that Sonic Adventure was shit because it was too adventury and there wasn't enough platforming and it wasn't a sidescroller. Sonic Adventure is a pretty good game, as I'm sure you'll attest, but you'll notice it adds to the formula. The problems start when the additions become half baked.
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Most of your points do not make sense. The biggest reason the masks were stupid in Journey of Dreams was because NO ONE asked for something like this. Heroes and Shadow were not shitty because they had glitches and bad voice acting, they were just bad games. Everything attempted in these games could have been done years ago on different hardware. The only reason they did not have whole sections of a Sonic game where you need to drive a convertible car through boiling green oil is because that is literally retarded.
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Most of your points do not make sense. The biggest reason the masks were stupid in Journey of Dreams was because NO ONE asked for something like this. Heroes and Shadow were not shitty because they had glitches and bad voice acting, they were just bad games. Everything attempted in these games could have been done years ago on different hardware. The only reason they did not have whole sections of a Sonic game where you need to drive a convertible car through boiling green oil is because that is literally retarded.
Just because no one asked for something doesn't make it shitty after the fact. Who the hell asked for Whisps? And really, how terrible does that look? I believe I've read some fairly positive feedback on them, even on this site. I've read articles stating that between Sonic Colours, which no one asked for, and Sonic 4, which everyone did, Sonic Colours is looking to be the better game. While that may not be true when the scores come in, that seems to actually be opined by people, which in and of itself is extraordinary to me.
And they're (the whisps) the exact same gimmick as the masks. The same thing. Just a different presentation. Its just a powerup. The Masks just let you do weird shit. They should have thought of better stuff to do, but honestly, its neither uncommon, nor is it bad in conception. The problem comes in execution.
It is entirely possible to make a fun game where NiGHTS has different masks which allow him to access different parts of the level or do different things. The trick is to justify it, which is where Sonic Team failed.
You're treating your subjective opinion as fact. Heroes was not a bad game, it was a mediocre to decent game. Averages in the 6s to 7s, and millions sold, or a more successful Sonic Unleashed. It was much better than a lot of recent nonsense, such as 06. Both its sales and its scores support that. You may opine that its shitty, but you honestly can't presume to speak for everyone.
Sonic driving in a platformer is dumb, because its redundant, but the green oil isn't.
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Heroes and Shadow were not shitty because they had glitches and bad voice acting, they were just bad games.
Whoa, putting Shadow and Heroes in the same level there? As far as I remember, Sonic Heroes was considered a good game with a silly story.
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Well as long as he does n't touch Burning Rangers, he can run NIGHTS into the ground for all I care.
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Aki- You didn't ask for it, but it seemed like SU did. I may be mistaken by reading too fast. If I did I'm sorry.
If you play the Sonic stages you'll notice that the platforming is far and few in between. Furthermore the platforming with the werehog is mostly boring and tedious as well as down right frustrating and cheap most of the time
Sonic Heroes wasn't a terrible platformer. It got a bad rap at the time because it wasn't up to snuff with Adventure 1 or 2..
It was a terrible platformer, it didn't get even worse rap because it came after those two games, if it came after Shadow the Hedgehog, Silver or Sonic Unleashed, it would have scored even lower, back than Sonic had good will to his name.
Sonic Heroes has terrible level designs as soon as you go past stage 2, horrible glitches, some of the worst boss battles in Sonic games at the time and the team gameplay was shoddy at the best of times.
I really have to wonder how much you've actually played of that game to defend it's level design.
It posted average to respectable scores (7s), and was the best selling Sonic game till, what, Olympic Games?.
See my previous point. I have always disliked Sonic Heroes since it was released and I am sure if you check this forum, many too would dislike it. Compared to other platformers from Nintendo, Sony and Naughty Dog, the end product was lacking.
And Shadow's problems had more to do with guns, voice acting (and the prerequisite script) and glitches.
Shadow's major problems may not have been level design, but it still was a problem, again I have to ask how much you've seen or played of the game?
The difference between a platformer and whatever you consider NiGHTS to be isn't that significant. Its not the leap from say Sonic to Shadow.
Please enlighten me how many times you are forced to jump in the original NiGHTS outside of playing as the two children, who then didn't even do much jumping.
The whole reason the genre is called platforming is because the character is meant to jump from one platform to another, there lies the platforming. To say there is not a significant difference tells me you did not play NiGHTS or many platforming games before. The main point in a platformer is jumping, this is not and never was the point of NiGHTS. It's a much bigger leap than Sonic to Shadow, infact it's leaping chasms.
It isn't that hard at all to imagine having to rescue NiGHTS or something as one of the characters in a well thought out platforming segment of the game. Especially if its a windy level, ala whatever the hell the name of the second act in Sonic Adventure was, where you spend a good bit of time dicking with vents. I'm not saying it should be a significant portion of the game, but its completely feasible, in my opinion. It could very well compliment the...er...not platforming NiGHTS sections.
How do you compliment free flow flying with platforming? You just cannot. I do not understand why you think platforming would be a good idea in a game that is not and was never know about platforming. It would be like adding fighting in Sonic and you know that was not received too well, even with the fact that it happens to be okay for the most part.
Likewise, the masks could have been a very fun and interesting element to the gameplay, had they been more varied and put to more interesting use. You'll notice a similar gimmick with Sonic Colours, and thus far it doesn't seem to be a very despised feature of the game.
They could have, but even how they were used was good for the most part, however people do not want to random be forced into changing into these forms, which NiGHTS unfortunately did and something Sonic Colours fortunately is not doing.
But I think if you asked people would they prefer Sonic without the wisp powers? Most would answer yes they would.
I'm not saying that games should mimic one another - Shenmue shouldn't become Grand Theft Auto. I am saying that I wouldn't expect Shenmue 3 to be the exact same gameplay as Shenmue 1 or 2 with better graphics.
But the changes I made about Shenmue is less drastic than adding platforming to NiGHTS? Shenmue is already an open city for players to explore and interact, surely the next logical step would be allowing them to interact with weapons and cars? Whilst NiGHTS is about free flowing flght in a 2D plane, how you could move onto platforming from there I just do not understand.
Using new resources and capabilities on a gaming platform doesn't mean masquerading behind more successful franchises. It means expanding a making something unique.
Or you just do not make the sequel and instead opt for a new IP. By expanding a title, you force certain segments, mainly what NiGHTS is known for, with less and less gameplay of this. This is not what the fanbase wanted but was forced by the platforming.
And 3D platforming was possible on the SEGA Saturn, see Croc.
If the masks and platforming had been well thought out and more seamless, I tend to doubt people would complain much. Its like saying that Sonic Adventure was shit because it was too adventury and there wasn't enough platforming and it wasn't a sidescroller. Sonic Adventure is a pretty good game, as I'm sure you'll attest, but you'll notice it adds to the formula. The problems start when the additions become half baked.
The problems started from Sonic Adventure, not when they became half baked. People were complaining about Knuckles treasure hunting, Gamma's shooting etc because this was just not the point of Sonic, those complaints carried onto Sonic Adventure 2 but after that, the quality of those ideas started to drop too.
It did not however change the fact some were displeased with the extra additions to the gameplay. If you want to add stuff like Gamma and Knuckles' treasure hunting, it is all well and good, however this is better for new IPs or spinoffs, just expanding the series into something that would slowly make the main draw lesser and lesser is not the way to go.
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Well as long as he does n't touch Burning Rangers, he can run NIGHTS into the ground for all I care.
Stop giving him ideas Joe!
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There is one thing that I don't understand though..
What's wrong with making a bad sequel? It's not like the older games aren't still great. What should we be concerned about? I've been thinking about this and I think it doesn't really matter. Sure I may be disappointed with the new game, but the same happens with new IPs.
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What's wrong with making a bad sequel? It's not like the older games aren't still great. What should we be concerned about? I've been thinking about this and I think it doesn't really matter. Sure I may be disappointed with the new game, but the same happens with new IPs.
Silver and Shadow do not take away from the design of Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
However I will not defend bad games and something I do not expect to see from SEGA's premier series (But this is now talking about Sonic the Hedgehog, instead of NiGHTS as we were doing so)
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Yes. I see where you're getting.
But it's not the case of defending bad games, it's the outrage games like NiGHTS Wii (which on itself wasn't a bad game) deploy on the fans.
I think that if they want to make a sequel they should. And fans should have in mind that it may come out good or bad (just like any other game), but never undignify the old game.
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As a psychologist, I feel I should just say one thing the Persona (Masks) are important, the game revolves around Carl Jung's Interpretation of Dreams (or one of his less known apprentice), the bulk of Jung's work is on Personafication and the masks we were in life.
I have only studied jung for a grand total of 6 hours (spread across 2 weeks) in part of Personality Psychology, and it was very hard to comprehend what he was going for in his theory, but I can quickly pick up a lot of his art and in NiGHTS and it's sequel.
Even Yuji Naka (who probably left cause of NiGHTS 2), discussed the ability to acquire a persona in a positive light in his interview with that NiGHTS fan site.
If I were to add something negative for the game I have to say it has to be the extreme emphasis on the European setting, Jung travelled the world and his theories consisted of what humans have in common across the globe.
What's wrong with making a bad sequel? It's not like the older games aren't still great. What should we be concerned about? I've been thinking about this and I think it doesn't really matter. Sure I may be disappointed with the new game, but the same happens with new IPs.
Silver and Shadow do not take away from the design of Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
However I will not defend bad games and something I do not expect to see from SEGA's premier series (But this is now talking about Sonic the Hedgehog, instead of NiGHTS as we were doing so)
But they do bring down the Sonic name!
That is what's bad, this is a general example and it is something I've only heard I have never seen any Indiana Jones movie, but supposedly the franchise was great before Spilberg decided to give it a sequel. Now days people find the entire franchise crap.
This is what I hear, as some one who is not even a fan I wouldn't bother even watching any movie. Same for NiGHTS it was a sleeper's hit, and people from time to time were discovering the magic, now people will be less intrested.
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There is one thing that I don't understand though..
What's wrong with making a bad sequel? It's not like the older games aren't still great. What should we be concerned about? I've been thinking about this and I think it doesn't really matter. Sure I may be disappointed with the new game, but the same happens with new IPs.
Remember how we were talking about how major sites/reviewers/casual fans think Sega is shit?
Bad sequels like JoD is the reason why. Not to mention, it kills off the chance of making a GOOD sequel usually, or if not, it'll hurt the sales of any future games sometimes.
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Oh, I see.
Thanks for the reasoning guys. I wasn't quite looking at the big picture.
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1. I'm not entirely sure how the werehog correlates to what we were talking about on this front. I was of the impression we were discussing just remaking NiGHTS, which I said I was something I thought SU said he wanted.
2. I'm not entirely sure. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle and Sonic Adventure DX were very widely panned. I'm not saying Heroes was a good game, I'm saying it was mediocre. It was hardly as shitty as some of the other things that would come after it. I played through Sonic Heroes once, I'm guessing 7 years ago, so while I may not be the expert you are, I have played the game, and don't remember it being significantly better or worse than Sonic Adventure or its sequel. It solved a lot of the problems of the Adventure games, such as the Knuckles stages, by simply having him be part of the platforming element, which was a good idea, all things considered. Some things, such as the continued inclusion of voice acting and a faulty camera are still in place. The issue is it came 5 years after Sonic Adventure first came out.
I would never say Heroes was as bad as Shadow (Which I also have much less experience than you with apparently) and Sonic 06 (which I honestly didn't dick around with beyond the first few stages). Maybe I'm underestimating Shadow?
3. I'm not saying I loved Sonic Heroes, I just think that you're overstating its lack of quality. I believe it was a 6 or 7 game, and would have scored it in that range were I a judge. It shouldn't have averaged 4s and 5s, like more recent efforts. I never said it was as good as something Nintendo or Naughty Dog puts out, though I'm not sure its fair to compare Sonic Team to Naughty Dog or Nintendo, as those are stable studios working on their own hardware (more or less) where Sonic Team was
a. Being forced to develop on non-Sega hardware, which is in itself demoralizing, especially after working on Dreamcast hardware since, what, 1997? And then with the XBOX flopping in Japan, being forced to work on the Playstation 2, which as well as being the system of the enemy, was also a pain in the ass to program for, and you were being forced to do it at break neck speed. Companies like Konami, Capcom and Square had head starts of years, which Sega was forced to compete with.
b. Part of a sudden merger into Sammy.
c. Made 1st Party again, and thereby stripped of the autonomy they'd enjoyed for five years.
d. Merged with UGA, which had a very different style, and inevitably lead to conflicting hierarchies. You'll notice that save Project Rub, UGA staff have been relegated to Sonic spinoffs?
I would like to see any one of those companies churn out decent games under that environment. Look at Rare. They were only subject to a sale, or a quarter of what Sega/Sonic Team was, and see the difference between Conker and Ghoulies. I'd hazard the remark that Rare has yet to recover, though they've done better than Sonic Team, thus far.
And to the original argument, all those problems are the fault of management, not the individual studios.
4. Free flow flying is a bit of a stretch if I remember NiGHTS correctly. The game was after all on a 2D plane. It seemed to me that you were on a reasonably set course in that in order to score you went through hoops and the like. Sure you can go left or right or something, but that's not really that different from going to the left or right platform in a 3D platformer. That's like calling Sonic free flow running because he can go in a number of directions. While its true, you'll also have a correspondingly terrible score, which defeats the purpose of the game. Hell, there were even arrows in NiGHTS telling you which way to go. And like in a platformer, you go up or down and side to side. The only difference is instead of jumping, you zoom up, so there is no pressing A or whatever.
If you call NiGHTS free flow flying seriously, and not as a bit of marketing Kilanski used to market the game in 96, then I have to wonder if you really understand the definition of the word free? :mrgreen:
Remind me, Aki, how many times playing Panzer Dragoon Zwei, back in good old 1996, did you get the inclination that the sequel would obviously be an RPG? Where is the connection between a rail shooter and an RPG? They are literally as far apart on the spectrum as I can imagine. Yet it seemed to work fine.
If you can make a rail shooter into an RPG (Panzer Dragoon Saga), or a rail shooting zombie game into an educational game (Typing of the Dead), or a traditional RPG with abundant story into a hack n slash with virtually no story (Phantasy Star Online), I don't see why you couldn't make something that has many basic elements of a platformer (such as more or less pre-determined paths, the timer and so on) into a game that has good platforming elements.
It can be done. I'm not saying they did it right, I'm simply saying that a very good and well thought out game could exist in which there is both platforming and "free flow flying" and you would not utter one word of complaint because the game was good. Otherwise I'd never hear the end of how Panzer Dragoon Saga, or Shining Force, or whatever else has your panties in a wad, have you drifted from the series roots and the like. And Shining Force is an even better example here because we aren't talking about a series (as the original Shining Force only had one predecessor). We're talking about the canon of all of one game.
In fact, I would go so far as to say I highly doubt you honestly give a fuck about genre if the game is good, and changing genre and making a good game are not mutually exclusive, as something like Saga points out. Its an issue of quality, and I think deep down you know that. Or am I to assume that we can't make an adventure out of say...Virtua Fighter, change the names a bit and call it something like...I don't know...Shenmue? And I understand that that specific example evolved a bit beyond a Virtua Fighter Adventure, but you get the general premise of my point I trust.
The platforming doesn't have to be the overriding element, but it can exist, and it can exist well.
5. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. When did I defend Shadow? All I said was Heroes was not a terrible game, merely mediocre. For an Englishman, how much English do they actually teach you in school? I really have to ask if you're not just an American masquerading.
6. Sonic the Fighters was a decent game and was fairly well received, thank you very much. It was no Virtua Fighter, but it'll do. On the same topic, as I'm sure you know, there is also a Sonic RPG, a few racers (both on foot and in cars), a puzzle game, a few adventure games, a maze, a party game, a tennis game (with other Sega characters to flesh it out), two games at the olympics, and so on and so on and so on. House of the Dead has ventured into the land of education, pinball and brawler/adventure.
Just goes to show you how flexible Sega can be.
7. No, and I agree with you there. They should not have forced you to use the masks. That was poor choice.
I would actually prefer the whisp powers, IF they are done correctly and are optional, clever and fun, because they allow the game to open up a little more and they add variation to a 20 year old routine.
8. I'm not saying they should keep the additions with each game, and just build them on to one another, so that the third game is flying, plus my platforming, plus, say, racing.
I'm saying each game should be unique, and while there should be games that stick to the bare bones basic premise of the series, there should also be games that do things differently. That's one thing I like about the Shining series.
We'll say one main instalment and one odd game (like my platforming) per generation. Part of the problem with Sega is they make sequels once in a blue moon, and only milk one or two games. I don't believe JoD, as it was advertised as NiGHTS 2, should have had platforming, but that there is nothing wrong with some NiGHTS game having it. They should simply make more of them. Some bare bones, rock ribbed and to the basics, and some with weird ideas to play with.
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For reference, according to GameRankings (which compiles the scores of pro-reviews):
Sonic Adventure: 86.5
Sonic Adventure DX: 64.0
Sonic Adventure 2: 83.8
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle: 72.6
Sonic Heroes: 75.4
Shadow: 53.5
Sonic 06: 48.7
Sonic Unleashed: 61.9
The regular media considers games with less than 50 to be awful, between 50-60 to be bad, 60-70 to be mediocre, 70-80 good, 80-90 very good. Take your conclusions.
Can we at least keep Sonic out of this thread from now on? We discuss Sonic in every other thread already lol
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While we are partying off-topic I would just like to say that Sonic 06 is way better than Shadow, COME ON!
Shadow only had to make one control scheme work and that was Shadows.
Sonic 06 had 9 greatly different control schemes, and was also 10 times longer.
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Sonic 06 had 9 greatly different control schemes, and was also 10 times longer.
Of course it was, just time those loading screens.
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Not going to reply to all of what Jonboy said, because holllllly shit that is a long post, but there are some things I think need to be said.
a. Being forced to develop on non-Sega hardware, which is in itself demoralizing, especially after working on Dreamcast hardware since, what, 1997? And then with the XBOX flopping in Japan, being forced to work on the Playstation 2, which as well as being the system of the enemy, was also a pain in the ass to program for, and you were being forced to do it at break neck speed. Companies like Konami, Capcom and Square had head starts of years, which Sega was forced to compete with.
I can understand it all being so hard to instantly switch to new platforms, but again it mostly comes down to Sonic Team just not being that great anymore. All of their games have had good graphics, sure, but they almost always mess up stuff because they are just not really good at planning and finishing off ideas. Sure for Heroes most fans wanted to play as all of the Sonic characters and have it based more around Sonic's levels from the Adventure games, they did not want to have to search for new moves but wanted as many as possible and wanted "Classic" art and less story emphasis too, but when it all came together people were mad that Sonic was only like 7% of the game, the levels were just the same shit over and over again, the controls were overly complex and barely worked, the art was completely based on earlier games and looked horribly uninspired and the story adds MORE holes to an already shockingly confusing plot to begin with.
One of the biggest issues here is that from all of the negative responses, Sonic Team just always starts over with each game and brings in new engines, styles, settings and gameplay. With this they will actually somewhat succeed with Sonic Colors because they are actually basing almost all of it on Sonic Unleashed ideas and just building it off of this.
But that is another issue! Sonic Unleashed played nothing like any Sonic game before it. Sure some of us like it enough, but this really did upset many of the fans a lot. Because they continuously change everything they really are overthinking and overworking just about everything, making and erasing fans with every release to the point it is just completely impossible to make a game in the series half of the fanbase even likes anymore.
I'll come in here and say while Shadow's game was a rancid piece of shit, I actually have kind of a soft spot for it. It is so strangely bad that I kind of like it. I am not really hating on Sonic Team because I think they suck, I am hating on them because they seem to always miss the point and think they can always make any game they work on way better than it ever has been when almost everything they need to fix is obvious to anyone. It is just pathetic to watch.
4. Free flow flying is a bit of a stretch if I remember NiGHTS correctly. The game was after all on a 2D plane. It seemed to me that you were on a reasonably set course in that in order to score you went through hoops and the like. Sure you can go left or right or something, but that's not really that different from going to the left or right platform in a 3D platformer. That's like calling Sonic free flow running because he can go in a number of directions. While its true, you'll also have a correspondingly terrible score, which defeats the purpose of the game. Hell, there were even arrows in NiGHTS telling you which way to go. And like in a platformer, you go up or down and side to side. The only difference is instead of jumping, you zoom up, so there is no pressing A or whatever.
Saying it is a platformer because you go in all different directions is like you are describing any genre! Just because the game is based on a 2D plane does not really change anything. If NiGHTS is anything, it is closest to a time attack racing game.
While we are partying off-topic I would just like to say that Sonic 06 is way better than Shadow, COME ON!
Shadow only had to make one control scheme work and that was Shadows.
Sonic 06 had 9 greatly different control schemes, and was also 10 times longer.
That is a strange way to look at it. It is like informing someone that having more types of feces smeared on your wall is way better than just one kind.
And in the case of Shadow, there were actually more control setups. There were tons of different kinds of vehicles and themed levels, the second player controls were different too depending on the characters. The length is not really a fair thing to compare because it takes multiple playthroughs to see most of the content.
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I wasn't arguing the case that its a platformer. I was arguing that its similar to a platformer, which, indeed, used to have a time element thrown in. And I'm going to reply to the rest of the post later.
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Well as long as he does n't touch Burning Rangers, he can run NIGHTS into the ground for all I care.
Stop giving him ideas Joe!
Only wish it were, BR's been up for renewal for a while now, just certain circumstances have gotten in the way.
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I wasn't arguing the case that its a platformer. I was arguing that its similar to a platformer, which, indeed, used to have a time element thrown in. And I'm going to reply to the rest of the post later.
I'll reply later when I have more time, but time limits have existed for fighters, racers, heck, almost everything at some point has had a time limit attached to it.
But it has nothing to do with being a platformer or not, it's something that came about from the arcades, not platform games.
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It won't make a difference. While the first game is a masterpeice its leagacy has been soiled with the Wii edition and the cash in PS2 version, so any new edition won't
add or takeaway from it being considered a great game ruined by lousy sequels. If sega can still make monies from the IP, why not.
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Its really not worth fighting over.
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I know which is why i said what i said.