SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: ROJM on September 10, 2010, 09:22:10 am
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It seems everyone here are celebrating the DC at the moment,which isn't really a change since the last white hope is always been celebrated at one point or another.
But I think there's a darker side to the DC story and this particular story hasn't ended because many Sega gamers that brought the system be they new or old are still suffering from what happened with this system.
Not the way it was crushed by sony or the fact it was generally ignored by the gaming public and press at the time. No, what the DC did was spoil a generation of sega fans with excellent games, to the point that those fans expected Sega to keep coming up with titles of the high standard that the DC generation of games set and by doing so any game released after that period regardless of being ok or very good was never going to match the standard which in my opinioon has resulted in people declaring Sega is crap or shit or worse because they weren't as great as the DC.
Not really understanding that previous sega systems with their own libary of games didn't necessarly match the playability,the fun and lastabilty that the DC seemed to have in its abundance.
The games that sega released when they re entered the third party race were very good,most were on the xbox but there were some on the PS2 as well. But if anyone remember's the general reaction to these games from the forums at the time it seemed that sega was over the hill. Worse, people were ignoring their arcade efforts at that time for various reasons and seemed to just focus soley n their console efforts. And that created a false preception which was quickly picked up by overzealous journalists and rival game fans that Sega was a dirty word in terms of game quality, but had the audacity to compare the newer titles to their DC ones which many i may add never brought the DC in the first place. They were just jumping on the bandwagon to the genuine confustion felt by many sega fans at that time.
While the noise has quieted down now, many people are still under a lot of misconceptions about Sega, where or who can make a good game, complaining about Sega west actually making games for the sega brand and so on. Not realising that as long as i've been buying sega games for console at least for over 28 years now they've always kind of operated that way.
Were now approching TGS. And there's a buzz about RGG and VAL and several others. You'd almost think that since they've gone third party those are the only great games they've produced after the DC era. And that criticism isn't leveled at just sega fans but most fans of gaming who frequent gaming forums, who actually take time to play their game and interact on the gaming netspace that 360 and PS3 offer.
Sega is guilty of letting a cat out of a bag but that cat just created an almost hysteria of expectations that no game company can continully live up to. Has sega produced bad games since DC? Yes, but they also produced bad games for all their systems at one point.
The question is was the output of real terrible games more than anything else they released? I'd say no just like any other games company. But no company has the legacy of the DC hanging over their head. A proud legacy to be sure but also a distracting one especially when the guys at sega try to conform to peoples demands on games even though certain games like Sonic, can arguable be said whose quality started to decline long before the DC was a light in Sega's eye.
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From that perspective, Sonic games have sucked since S3&K but the SA were an exception? That's a quite interesting point of view..
And I agree with all your post.
I always thought that everyone (fans and not) demands way too much from Sega compared to other companies. The reason and theory you're pointing out makes a lot of sense. I've never thought of it that way.
The gaming world has changed a lot in the past 10 years. I do not think Sega will even be able to do what it did with the Dreamcast. But the quality's still there, as Sega as proved in the afteryears. There are a lot of great Sega games being overlooked all the time. Maybe this year's bombastic avalanche of games will turn the tide and make people realize that Sega games are still great.
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PDCTSD- post dreamcast traumatic stress disorder
The real trauma of dreamcast was the tragedy of seeing a real gamer's game system, the best to ever be produced, annihilated by the corporate steam rollers of Sony and Microsoft and the wave of mainstream gaming fuckwads they brought in replacing the real gamers of old.
It's never been a problem of old vs new Sega; it's a problem of old-school gaming versus mainstream gaming. Sega like any other company is forced to produce the games that the market will accept and be commercially viable. I have no doubt that existing Sega developers given free reign today could produce titles that would eclipse the DC era ones in every regard. The problem is one of commercial acceptance and profitability in a mainstream dominated market forcing Sega to 'corporatize' their game design process with titles acceptable to the mass market first over the demands and wishes of the Sega loyalists; this in total contrast to the freedom of the independent studio DC days.
Demanding fans are an asset not a liability.
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Games of today that remind me most of Dreamcast games are what we see on XBLA and PSN. Easy pick up and play releases that don't so much provide hours of gameplay in a narrative sense, but rather in a replay sense. Also, loads of unlockable bits. For example, After Burner Climax, Hydro Thunder Hurricane, Outrun Online, Lumines and Pac-Man Championship Edition all could be Dreamcast games.
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No, what the DC did was spoil a generation of sega fans with excellent games, to the point that those fans expected Sega to keep coming up with titles of the high standard that the DC generation of games set and by doing so any game released after that period regardless of being ok or very good was never going to match the standard which in my opinioon has resulted in people declaring Sega is crap or shit or worse because they weren't as great as the DC.
Lol, if that's what you're driving at, then the name of this thread should have been "How the Dreamcast ruined the lives of a small group of people forever."
The rest of the gaming world outside of the SEGA spectrum has been doing just fine.
The real trauma of dreamcast was the tragedy of seeing a real gamer's game system, the best to ever be produced, annihilated by the corporate steam rollers of Sony and Microsoft and the wave of mainstream gaming fuckwads they brought in replacing the real gamers of old.
The Dreamcast was my favorite console for a long time. Eventually, though, the PS2 did take that space.
Games of today that remind me most of Dreamcast games are what we see on XBLA and PSN. Easy pick up and play releases that don't so much provide hours of gameplay in a narrative sense, but rather in a replay sense. Also, loads of unlockable bits. For example, After Burner Climax, Hydro Thunder Hurricane, Outrun Online, Lumines and Pac-Man Championship Edition all could be Dreamcast games.
I totally agree with what you're saying. As retail titles drive further and further away from being "real" games and more towards being hand-holding interactive movies, I find myself buying more and more downloadable titles because they remind me so much of what gaming used to be like.
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Funny thing with me is that when I hear about a game having a short playthrough time, I actually want to play it more. Something that is 50+ hours is tough, as I usually can get in only a few hours a week. But when something appears that is being bemoaned for being good but only 10 hours long, it has my attention.
Shenmue is the exception to my rule.
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There is something I would add to Joe's post. It lies on Sonic Team. Sonic Team used to be Sega's lead console studio. They were what most people considered as Sega's top team and a reference. Less than ten years later and it is what it is. This is unfair to the really good games the company has been producing. But what can you do? Fight general ignorance seeded by idiots such as Kotaku and IGN?
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Funny thing with me is that when I hear about a game having a short playthrough time, I actually want to play it more. Something that is 50+ hours is tough, as I usually can get in only a few hours a week. But when something appears that is being bemoaned for being good but only 10 hours long, it has my attention.
Oh yeah, totally. I've been saying that I'm going to play stuff like Tokobot and Shining Force EXA for like... 2 weeks? 3 weeks now? But I haven't found much time for gaming at all.
Being old sucks. :P
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As retail titles drive further and further away from being "real" games and more towards being hand-holding interactive movies, I find myself buying more and more downloadable titles because they remind me so much of what gaming used to be like.
Agreed. Who would have thought that 25 years on from the high scores at the arcade, my interest in gaming would be sustained by essentially the exact same thing... online leaderboards. The gameplay has evolved in important ways, but the basic drive of competing against your friends, and yourself, in short focused tests of skill, is timeless.
As for the question of length in so-called AAA titles, it's not 60+ hours of immersion that interests me... it's how satisfying a feeling do I get from an hour or two of playing it at a time a couple/few times a week, because that's the most I can devote to gaming. It's taking me literally months to play through the Yakuza games and Fallout 3. The type of cinematic game I would hope to see in the future is one with a branching narrative path that always ends within 90-120 minutes and just has tons of different possible endings. But this would just be a type of game that fills its own niche, not to replace the tried and true forms.
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Spoiled, yes. There is no excuse as to why titles such as Skies of Arcadia or Shenmue should have had such a heavy budget as they did. It could have been possible to separate Shenmue's budget into 3, maybe 4 major Sonic games or potentially around 20 Chu Chu Rocket-level titles, which was given away free in some regions even. Why?
I think at least half of all of this should be dropped onto Sonic Team's shoulders though, as Orta brought up. The absolute biggest reason SEGA's image is so poor is because their titles have not delivered for years, not to mention the constant poor PR from them.
Which leads up to other types of PR, like Simon Jeffery. I do not think I need to explain all he did wrong.
More people now prefer cinematic styled games, and SEGA was wary of going down this road again with how Shenmue turned out. They tried to force out stuff like Alpha Protocol (which I do not think is a terrible game at all) and it obviously did not work out the way they wanted to. Of course Yakuza is very cinematic, but that does not really matter to most of the world, and if they plan to keep it only on PlayStation platforms then I cannot see it getting much bigger either.
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Oh! Forgot to add: I'd replace "Traumatized" with "Spoiled"
The DC years were like the best piece of cake you could ever eat. This past year has been like a very good piece of cake. Yet most of today's gamers think the really good cake of today tastes like shit compared to the cake of the DC years.
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But though everyone is debating on this, you can't deny that Sega fans were indeed spoiled.
I think that the Dreamcast cake was the best ever, but now we have a completely different non-comparable cake.
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The DC years were like the best piece of cake you could ever eat. This past year has been like a very good piece of cake. Yet most of today's gamers think the really good cake of today tastes like shit compared to the cake of the DC years.
Yes, those are the people known as... shitcakers.
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Well Said Sir, brilliant post Joe.
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The DC years were like the best piece of cake you could ever eat. This past year has been like a very good piece of cake. Yet most of today's gamers think the really good cake of today tastes like shit compared to the cake of the DC years.
Yes, those are the people known as... shitcakers.
Heh...
Barry, "most of today's gamers" didn't even own a Dreamcast, especially not back in its heyday. On top of that, as much as we all love the little white box, the PS2 simply turned out to be better in terms of games by around 2005 or so.
The best piece of gaming cake you could possibly have right now would be the 60 GB launch model PS3, with its ability to play PS1, PS2, and PS3 games, as well as giving you all of its various media functions and whatnot.
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Between 2000 and 2005 the PS2 had five years to build up a quality library, meanwhile the Dreamcast built up an amazing library within the span of under three years. I consider my Dreamcast library rather large (87 games total) and yet I still have a good twenty AA to AAA titles to own. So while you could argue that the PS2 "turned out to be better" (completely untrue in my opinion), it took a good deal longer to actually reach that point.
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It may have taken longer, but results are results. The PS2's game library is simply the best, and the DC's would be more of a still-stunning second place.
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List 100 of the best PS2 games (or find somebody who made a list, or metacritic) and compare them to this list: http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/ (http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/)
I guarantee the Dreamcast list would top the PS2 in terms of fresh, fun, original and overall better games. I'd even wager that a number of the good PS2 games were ports of Dreamcast games. Sorry, but I can't agree to disagree on the subject, especially on a SEGA forum. :)
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I hate to say it, but i'm with fluffymoochicken on this. While I love the DC a lot I have to say ps2 gamelibrary beats DC library with ease.
Ps2 has a lot of good to offer in any sort of genre, especially on rpg's while on the DC, good rpg's were scarse.
Think about games like, shadow of the collosus, kingdom hearts, Yakuza, Jak and Daxter, Kingdom hearts(not my favourite :) ), Virtua Fighter 4 and lots of more games.
Than again, the DC's support timeline was pretty short and could have shown real promise with the new technology around 2001.
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List 100 of the best PS2 games (or find somebody who made a list, or metacritic) and compare them to this list: http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/ (http://dreamcast100.blogspot.com/)
First of all, that list's mistake is putting Jojo way back at #100 on the list. What a big time fail.
Secondly... Wacky Races? Sega Swirl? Pen Pen Tricelon? Sonic Shuffle? Cannon Spike?! OUTRIGGER AT #66?!?! You really think that all of these games are AAA titles when compared to what the PS2 has to offer? :lol: Yeah, okay. This is actually more like a "complete list of games that are worth a **** on the Dreamcast" as much as it is a "best of".
A lot of these titles are on the PS2 already (SFIIX, SFIII:TS, SFA3, SPFIIX, GGX, Rez, Puyo Puyo Fever, almost every KOF game ever made, Rayman 2, DOA2, Grandia II, Space Channel 5, CvS2, RE: Code Veronica, Ecco the Dolphin, Crazy Taxi, Garou: MotW, Last Blade 2, MvC2, MDK2, R2R:R2, Le Mans 24 Hours, 18 wheeler, F355 Challenge, Virtua Tennis 2, Hydro Thunder).
A lot of them have sequels on the PS2, many of which are superior to the previous games (any 2K sports game, Virtua Fighter 4/Evolution, Puzzle Bobble series, GGXX onwards, aforementioned KOF games, Spider-Man 2 (movie based), Soul Reaver 2 and so forth, Tennis games).
On top of that, games that I've played on the PS2 and really love include Katamari Damacy, We <3 Katamari, Klonoa 2: Lunatea's Veil, Ape Escape 2, Ape Escape 3, Pac Man World 2, Ratchet & Clank, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal, Ratchet: Deadlocked, Okami, Sphinx & The Cursed Mummy, Tokobot Plus, NHL Hitz 20-02 & 20-03, Super Monkey Ball Deluxe, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, Ninja Assault, King of Fighters XI, Galactic Wrestling, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Contra: Shattered Soldier, ICO, and Frequency. Awesome compilations I own include Taito Legends, Taito Legends 2, Mega Man Anniversary Collection, Mega Man X Collection, Capcom Classics Collection, Activision Anthology, Fatal Fury Battle Archives Vol. 1, and Midway Arcade Treasures 1-3. I'm soon to own Shining Force EXA. <3
Games that I haven't bought on the system yet but I plan on getting include Odin Sphere, Grim Grimoire, Sly Cooper, Sly 2, Sly 3, Jak and Daxter, Jak II, Jak 3, Shadow of the Colossus, Fatal Fury Battle Archives Vol. 2, World Heroes Collection, Metal Slug Anthology, and (lol) The Adventures of Cookies and Cream.
Games that I don't care for but most critics would hold up as being great on the system include Devil May Cry, Devil May Cry 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2, Final Fantasy XII, Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts 2, God of War, God of War II, Grand Theft Auto III, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Bully, Disgea, Disgea 2, Silent Hill 2, Resident Evil 4, Persona 3, Persona 4, Gran Turismo 4, Dragon Quest VIII, Burnout 3, Burnout Revenge, SSX3, Onimusha, Onimusha 2, Onimusha 3, Viewtiful Joe, Twisted Metal Black, Tekken 5, Guitar Hero whatever, Hitman Blood Money, Xenosaga, Fatal Frame, Fatal Frame 2, Fatal Frame 3, The Mark of Kri, and tons of other games too many to mention.
Games that aren't "great" but could at least hold their own against the likes of Blue Stinger and Wacky Races on DC: Pac Man World 3, Pac Man World Rally, Way of the Samurai, DBZ Budokai 3, Astro Boy, Kao the Kangaroo 2, Metal Arms, MLB Slugfest 20-03, and a whole bunch of stuff I don't feel like looking up because I'm short on time. =P
So let's take a count from each category....
"Great" DC games that are also on PS2: ~27
Sequels/Spin-Offs to "great" DC games: Possibly more than 30.
Games I own & love: 23
Awesome Compilations I own: 10
Titles I wanna get: 13
Other games that are widely regarded as great: 37+
Games that could hold their own against mediocre DC games: Plenty, but I at least mentioned 8.
Total we've already reached: 147 (Hydro Thunder is on Midway Treasures 3, so it doesn't count)
Later on, if you want me to keep on naming good PS2 titles, I'm sure I could continue.
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Ooh, on top of all those, I forgot about the awesome Japanese cult classics Mr. Mosquito and Guitaroo Man! ^___^ Additionally, I forgot the popular mainstream titles Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec and Silent Hill 3. Also, from what I hear from RPG fans, LuPucelle Tactics, Phantom Brave, and Makai Kingdom, Sakura Wars, and the Altier Iris games are all a lot of fun.
That's over 10 more games right there. See, Barry, the PS2 is the kind of system you could probably make a "Top 200" list out of, not just a "Top 100". :P
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You've completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point.
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Comparing the PS2's longterm library with the Dreamcast's is really unfair. Sega had nothing like the third party support of sony's mammoth much less to say the popularity or the resources. A slightly more fair comparison would be to put Sony's ps2 first party titles up against Sega's DC era ones. And even then the aesthetics behind the games were completely different.
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Thank you radrappy.
Fluff, look at the first three years of PS2 games compared to the Dreamcast and you'll have a much more fair argument to bring to the table (and it would return to the point I was trying to make). Or take radrappy's advice and compare first party games, right there the Dreamcast is a winner.
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From that perspective, Sonic games have sucked since S3&K but the SA were an exception? That's a quite interesting point of view..
Let me clarify a little. I think SA games were part of the decline of the sonic series in general but they were a highlight of the 3D sonic games. Unlike AM2's VF series, which main core group of titles maintained a standard Sonic was marred by Sega's insistance of creating cheap and poor quality cash in titles like Sonic drift to Spinball. While they managed to maintain the quality of the main titles in the 16 bit era the emphasis of quantity over quality soon ended up affecting the main series of sonic titles which we are now experiencing today. Of course a part of that has been Sonic Team's ability or inability to make the game work in 3D and the fact that sonic was the only IP Sega knew for sure would make money when they became a third party.
Lol, if that's what you're driving at, then the name of this thread should have been "How the Dreamcast ruined the lives of a small group of people forever."
@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.
If the general game populance didn't care about Sega then you wouldn't see Sega having a bad reputation among them. Before that despite their many mistakes in the past the name sega was respected. After 2001 and onwards that dramatically changed. And make no mistake the DC was used as an example of the difference between what people thought sega was about compared to them being whatthey are as a third party. Many people here including some of the mods were around during that time having running battles with people trying to bash people about Sega all the time during 2001-2005. Yet its funny that half these people go gaga when they think sega is going to unleash a former DC title onto their system. These aren't sega fans or former DC owners that do this but gamers who are fans of other systems. I and many here have seen Xbox owners, nintendo and Sony owners get excited when a rumour of Shenmue or Jet set or some other great DC title may get a sequel on their system of choice. That is a fact. So don't BOTHER trying to make out that the gaming public outside the sega base aren't as enthalled with the DC era as the sega fans are.
Secondly. The journalists from proffessional gaming sites like ign and whoever write Sega DC features at any chance they get praising the console. They in my opinion are doing this out of guilt when as journalists and game reviewers they lost all objectivity as you're supposed to have being a gaming journalist and got swept up by the Sony PR machine. Only in the last two years these guys have realised what they have done in ignoring the last great console system ever to have been made and trying to make ammends to it. But of course instead of saying that, in a pathectic attempt to look good to their peers they "act" dissapointed about sega's current output and complain that its not up to par with Sega's DC output. Too bad they didn't make much of a noise about Sega DC games at the time they really needed it.
It seems now more than ever the DC has more supporters than it did when it was "alive".
As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles. Its the quality that counts and when we are talking about quality, sega's first and second party efforts combined with most of capcom's third party efforts simply blows the PS2 out of the F'ing water. Another fact. Execution of game ideas compared to the DC titles and the PS2 titles and the DC dumps on the PS2 from a great height. Realiability of the systems IE which of the two systems if you brought them back in 1999 and 2000 respectivily would still more likely to work now and the DC still wins. And wait, which of the two systems actually had an online system that actually worked? And when it comes down to it the PS2 titles look dated compared to the DC games. Strange that Soul Caliber still looks better than its "superior" PS2 sequel.
You can bring up the crap all you want buddy but you aren't going to win this battle. And really if you think the PS2 is better than a sega system, i question why the heck you are even posting here.
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I'll wait until more forum members with a taste in good games can comment on this before I have my say. I will say, however, that bright colors and rainbow bullshit does not make for a good game. Really, waving a Lisa Frank poster in front of your face would probably qualify as a "good game".
Oh, and you've also completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point. Way to go.
I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.
All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games. No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?
@RADrappy
We could think of all sorts of ways to make the DC look better, I agree that SEGA's first party games are way better than sony's, but that isn't a fair way to judge the consoles.
I mean it's not like you only buy sony games or post 2001 games if you own a ps2. That wouldn't make sense.
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You've completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point.
No I didn't, because I clearly wrote before:
"It may have taken longer, but results are results. The PS2's game library is simply the best, and the DC's would be more of a still-stunning second place."
Did you bother reading at all? :P
@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.
And with this statement, you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you have no idea what you're talking about and you assume you know everything about somebody that you've never met before.
I owned a Dreamcast in 1999. I was there at the time. Most of the gaming world did get along just fine without the Dreamcast. The people you see around SEGA gaming forums did not make up the majority of the gaming populace at the time. Sorry, but some of the things you believe are either misleading or flat-out wrong.
As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles.
You're right.
And in terms of the number of quality games, the NES would come out on top over the Master System.
I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.
All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games. No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?
Thanks, CrazyTails. It's nice to have somebody siding with me around here for once. ^__^
Not everything I like on the PS2 is a "rainbow game". I mean, has he ever seen Contra: Shattered Soldier in action before? :P Additionally, I did give a number of popular games that I myself don't care for as much, because I know that my own personal tastes are rather peculiar.
I mean, if I made my own favorite Dreamcast games list, stuff like RE: Code Veronica and Grandia II wouldn't rank very high because they're either in genres I don't like at all (horror) or genres that I can enjoy but don't care for as much (RPG).
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I'm glad someone has at least challenged the Dreamcast in this thread.
I mean, I loved and still love the system to bits (I still regularly play it with friends and alone), but I wouldn't say it 'spoiled' me as a gamer, or that it 'ruined' anything for me in the slightest.
Right now there are more games out that I'm interested in than I could possibly play, and this year alone has given me two games that I would consider part of my all time favourites (Bayonetta and Mafia 2).
Now the Dreamcast was an amazing console, and I will admit that Sega was possibly at it's finest during this time (I would argue late Saturn to early Xbox probably my favourite period of Sega), but I still bought an Xbox and then fell in love with Splinter Cell, Halo, Project Gotham Racing etc etc.
Dreamcast was brilliant, and probalby still my favourite console, but not to such a degree that everything else looks worse or let me down in any way.
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I'll wait until more forum members with a taste in good games can comment on this before I have my say. I will say, however, that bright colors and rainbow bullshit does not make for a good game. Really, waving a Lisa Frank poster in front of your face would probably qualify as a "good game".
Oh, and you've also completely ignored my amount of time on the market compared to the number of quality games point. Way to go.
I don't really get this post, especially the bolded parts.
All the games fluffymoo stated were all pretty much good games. No offense, because we're all sega fans around here and we all want SEGA to be the best, but you come off a bit biased tbh. Have you ever owned a ps2?
Note I removed that bit after having read it aloud and well before you made your post (perhaps you hadn't refreshed the page since posting?) after I realized that fluffy was simply doing his usual routine of trying to piss a majority of the forum off. So I respectfully deleted it and take back the mean words. I have in fact owned a PS2 and thought it was a piece of shit in many respects: hardware longevity (I have had two fail on me in 9 years, all three of my Dreamcasts are still running strong with no issues), broken add-on promises (harddrive and modem were failures) and general game quality in terms of many of my favorite publishers. Besides VF4, the PS2 didn't offer much in terms of SEGA until much later with Yakuza in 2006.
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I would say the Dreamcast still has a much better collection than the PS2 and this is a man with close to 70 Playstation 2 games, including niche titles like Wild Arms 3 and GunGrave but mainstream titles like Devil May Cry 1 & 3, Ratchet and Clank and God of War and artsy games like Ico and Okami. Heck I also have all the Onimusha titles and Armoured Core games too.
But this really boils down to people's perference, Shenmue 1 and 2, Jet Set Radio, the Power Stone games, SEGA Rally and Daytona, Confidential Mission and The House of the Dead 2 with Chu Chu Rocket, Sonic Adventure and Skies of Arcadia, it was a great collection of titles that placed the Dreamcast as my second favourite console.
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@Aki-at
What's your first if you don't mind me asking?
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Mega Drive.
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Note I removed that bit after having read it aloud and well before you made your post (perhaps you hadn't refreshed the page since posting?) after I realized that fluffy was simply doing his usual routine of trying to piss a majority of the forum off. So I respectfully deleted it and take back the mean words. I have in fact owned a PS2 and thought it was a piece of shit in many respects: hardware longevity (I have had two fail on me in 9 years, all three of my Dreamcasts are still running strong with no issues), broken add-on promises (harddrive and modem were failures) and general game quality in terms of many of my favorite publishers. Besides VF4, the PS2 didn't offer much in terms of SEGA until much later with Yakuza in 2006.
Well, even though I disagree, I can also understand the way you think. For me personally when I got a modded ps2, 2 years ago, I felt like I missed out big time, though there are certainly no gems like Skies of arcadia to be found, i'll give you that.
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@Aki-at
What's your first if you don't mind me asking?
The Nintendo Wii.
Nah I'm just kidding, it's the SEGA Mega Drive, Revenge of Shinobi and Shinobi 3, Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles, Streets of Rage 1 and 2, Ristar, Phantasy Star 4, Shining Force 1 and 2, Monster World 3 and 4, Contra, Quack Shot, Ecco 1 and 2, Vectorman 1 and 2, X-Men: Clone Wars, Gunstar Heroes, Dynamite Heady and well, we can be here all day, do you want to be here all day?
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Mega Drive.
You ruined the surprise, I should ban you for that.
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Haven't had time to read this thread until now. I pretty much totally agree!
In fact Joe, if you would like to make a 'final perfect copy' of your opinions here, maybe anything you forgot to mention others may have interjected etc.
I would like to make this into a front page article... full credit to you of course.
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why not let joe put it up himself =P
i mean, i thought that was a feature of SEGAbits
anyone can put up articles, they just had to be approved.
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Comparing the Dreamcast's 200+ games with the PlayStation 2's 14,000+ games is retarded and awkward. Of course even though half of the games Fluffy mentioned sucked there are more good games on it, many Dreamcast games were ported to it too, so it is not really fair at all.
It is easy to argue that based on the releases available, the Dreamcast has a higher percentage of those games worth playing, but I think anyone in the world rather have the option to play 12x more games regardless of their quality.
If you are going to say the PlayStation 3 is the best thing to play games on based on that though... lol. Using that mentality the best has and always will be the PC as you can play literally almost every game ever created on it now, if not now then in a couple of years.
Something I want to bring to the table though is that the Dreamcast was also sort of the start of making simpler gameplay controls and options available, something almost every "Hardcore Gamer" complains to death about now. If you compare many of the most complicated games on it to the most complicated games on the PlayStation, Nintendo 64 and Saturn you will see that those might not have been deeper, but they were much harder to wrap their head around than most Dreamcast games. Something like Armored Core compared to Fur Fighters is a good example.
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why not let joe put it up himself =P
i mean, i thought that was a feature of SEGAbits
anyone can put up articles, they just had to be approved.
That is what I was suggesting.
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I'm glad someone has at least challenged the Dreamcast in this thread.
You're welcome. =)
Note I removed that bit after having read it aloud and well before you made your post (perhaps you hadn't refreshed the page since posting?) after I realized that fluffy was simply doing his usual routine of trying to piss a majority of the forum off.
Do you ever believe that my opinions are sincere? :P
So I respectfully deleted it and take back the mean words. I have in fact owned a PS2 and thought it was a piece of shit in many respects: hardware longevity
...and yet, you love the Xbox 360. Would this qualify as irony?
Besides VF4, the PS2 didn't offer much in terms of SEGA until much later with Yakuza in 2006.
Oh yeah! Let's add Yakuza and Yakuza 2 on to that list of good PS2 games. That makes about 160 total now, right? Yet, you couldn't find anything that appeals to you other than Yakuza and VF4? :lol: Pfffft, and you say that I have no taste. Puh-lease. Pot calling the kettle black.
If you are going to say the PlayStation 3 is the best thing to play games on based on that though... lol. Using that mentality the best has and always will be the PC as you can play literally almost every game ever created on it now, if not now then in a couple of years.
Hmmm... maybe.
But the 60 GB launch PS3 is still the best console to own, currently.
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...and yet, you love the Xbox 360. Would this qualify as irony?
His Xbox 360 never broke, so why would that bother him?
But the 60 GB launch PS3 is still the best console to own, currently.
A "Console" is a computing device.
I know what you mean though, but my point was that your logic does not really seem fair. The Xbox 360 is completely capable of playing releases on other platforms, for instance I could play any Genesis game perfectly on a modded one if I wanted to. Does not mean I should like it more than the Genesis.
You should compare video game consoles by the games designed for it specifically, that is why Barry reacted so poorly to your forcefully arrogant posts.
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@uranus
I don't get it. Could you give some examples of games that are not fair to use against dc.
I can understand the whole genesis argument, but what else do you mean?
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The response was to how he meant PlayStation 3 was just "THE BEST" (yes, lame pun), as if we should consider the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 as part of the PlayStation 3's lineup. I did not really think that was fair.
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His Xbox 360 never broke, so why would that bother him?
He's one of the very, very few lucky ones. The Xbox 360 possibly has the most prolific console failure rate of all time.
At any rate, I've had my fair share of broken Dreamcasts, but I still don't find it a reason to hate the system. :P
You should compare video game consoles by the games designed for it specifically, that is why Barry reacted so poorly to your forcefully arrogant posts.
But the only titles I mentioned were real PS2 releases... not homebrew emulators or backwards compatible PS1 games. >_>
The reason why 60 GB PS3 is the best console out there is because it literally has a PS2 inside, for one... It is REAL PS2 hardware, not emulation. Thus, it could be seen as being two consoles in one.
The PS3's own library isn't quite as impressive as the PS2's, but it's gotten better over time. Its retail lineup certainly has more of a "something for everyone" vibe going for it than the 360 and Wii, which both seemed at times to be focused solely on a certain demographics (gramers and casuals, respectively).
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I really think that the 360 has quite a good variety in games myself. I also despise the term 'Gramers'.
As for hardware reliability, I've had my Saturn break once (Laser died, had to buy new one), and my Dreamcast break once too (got that replaced). Dreamcast #2 seems to acting up a bit too now, everytime I play CVS2 it seems to re-set itself randomly and often.
And of course the 360, I think that's broken down and had to be repaired about 5 times now. Thankfully MS Australia have wonderful customer service and it's been great.
What is this topic about again? Oh right. Yeah I like Dreamcast games, especially that Shenmue one. Or two. I enjoyed them, I did.
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The PS3's own library isn't quite as impressive as the PS2's, but it's gotten better over time. Its retail lineup certainly has more of a "something for everyone" vibe going for it than the 360 and Wii, which both seemed at times to be focused solely on a certain demographics (gramers and casuals, respectively).
Did you make up the term "Gramer"? I only ever heard you say it.
And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.
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I can understand the Playstation 3 against the Wii, but the Xbox 360? It's current collection is bigger and more varied than the Playstation 3 and the best multiplatform games are actually better on the Xbox 360. The Xbox360 in terms of it's library is the Playstation 2 of this generation in regards to varied games.
Also Wii has access to a large number of past consoles library, therefore the Wii is the best console on the market.
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I don't agree that the DC was SEGA at its very best (well bar AM#1). For me that was with the SEGA Saturn
AM#3 were on fire with Decathlete a game that looked like a Model 2 game and still to this day is the best 2 player game after Sensi. Winter Heat was also brilliant as was Virtual On, Last Bronx (one of the best fighters ever made) and the SEGA Rally Port they made with the CS Team, still the best racer (with the most perfect handling I ever played) .
AM#2 Were just something else onthe Saturn . Virtual Cop was the Arcade in your own Home, VF II was and still is, a sensation, never mind the likes of Fighter Megamix (the best fan service game ever), Fighting Vipers, Virtual Cop II.
Sonic Team again were just at their best on the Saturn.
NiGHTS is still magical and a game quite unlike any other, Christmas NiGHTS the best Chritsmas game around (still to this day), Burning Rangers just sheer brilliance, Sonic Jam the best retro package, and I love the likes of Sonic R
Overworks were brilliant with its Sukura series and the criminality overlooked and underrated Deep Fear.
Team Andromeda were just something else producing 2 of the best 3D shooters around, and imo the best RPG SEGA ever made in its history.
You then add in all the games SEGA produced and published and for me SEGA was at its creative peak with the Saturn, so were imo Game Arts, RAIZING, Treasure
I will say AM#1/WOW were better on the DC than they were on the Saturn . Though Die Hard Arcade is the best 3D beat them up, I've played to this day I also think people overlook and don't rate SEGA early 3rd party games for the X-Box or Cube high enough . Monkeyball is for the best game on the CUBE (and should have been a 10 out of 10). SEGA GT 2002 (the best racer of last gen), HOTD III class, VF 4 Evo (most prob the best 3d fighter ever made) and words fail me at how good the likes of Orta and JSRF really are.
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...and yet, you love the Xbox 360. Would this qualify as irony?
His Xbox 360 never broke, so why would that bother him?
Thanks Sanus (+5 dharma points). It would be very stupid of me to jump on a hater bandwagon when I have no real life reason or experiences to lead me to hate something.
You should compare video game consoles by the games designed for it specifically, that is why Barry reacted so poorly to your forcefully arrogant posts.
Another +5 dharma, and +2 Greg. Drop the arrogance and focus on the topic at hand. Perhaps a reread of the original post would help:
It seems everyone here are celebrating the DC at the moment,which isn't really a change since the last white hope is always been celebrated at one point or another.
But I think there's a darker side to the DC story and this particular story hasn't ended because many Sega gamers that brought the system be they new or old are still suffering from what happened with this system.
Not the way it was crushed by sony or the fact it was generally ignored by the gaming public and press at the time. No, what the DC did was spoil a generation of sega fans with excellent games, to the point that those fans expected Sega to keep coming up with titles of the high standard that the DC generation of games set and by doing so any game released after that period regardless of being ok or very good was never going to match the standard which in my opinioon has resulted in people declaring Sega is crap or shit or worse because they weren't as great as the DC.
Not really understanding that previous sega systems with their own libary of games didn't necessarly match the playability,the fun and lastabilty that the DC seemed to have in its abundance.
The games that sega released when they re entered the third party race were very good,most were on the xbox but there were some on the PS2 as well. But if anyone remember's the general reaction to these games from the forums at the time it seemed that sega was over the hill. Worse, people were ignoring their arcade efforts at that time for various reasons and seemed to just focus soley n their console efforts. And that created a false preception which was quickly picked up by overzealous journalists and rival game fans that Sega was a dirty word in terms of game quality, but had the audacity to compare the newer titles to their DC ones which many i may add never brought the DC in the first place. They were just jumping on the bandwagon to the genuine confustion felt by many sega fans at that time.
While the noise has quieted down now, many people are still under a lot of misconceptions about Sega, where or who can make a good game, complaining about Sega west actually making games for the sega brand and so on. Not realising that as long as i've been buying sega games for console at least for over 28 years now they've always kind of operated that way.
Were now approching TGS. And there's a buzz about RGG and VAL and several others. You'd almost think that since they've gone third party those are the only great games they've produced after the DC era. And that criticism isn't leveled at just sega fans but most fans of gaming who frequent gaming forums, who actually take time to play their game and interact on the gaming netspace that 360 and PS3 offer.
Sega is guilty of letting a cat out of a bag but that cat just created an almost hysteria of expectations that no game company can continully live up to. Has sega produced bad games since DC? Yes, but they also produced bad games for all their systems at one point.
The question is was the output of real terrible games more than anything else they released? I'd say no just like any other games company. But no company has the legacy of the DC hanging over their head. A proud legacy to be sure but also a distracting one especially when the guys at sega try to conform to peoples demands on games even though certain games like Sonic, can arguable be said whose quality started to decline long before the DC was a light in Sega's eye.
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@Fluff: And with that statement there you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you've no idea on what you are talking about and that you weren't there at the time.
And with this statement, you've exposed yourself very quickly in that you have no idea what you're talking about and you assume you know everything about somebody that you've never met before.
I owned a Dreamcast in 1999. I was there at the time. Most of the gaming world did get along just fine without the Dreamcast. The people you see around SEGA gaming forums did not make up the majority of the gaming populace at the time. Sorry, but some of the things you believe are either misleading or flat-out wrong.
No you didn't own a DC at 99 so stop lying to me and to yourself. The fact you don't even seem to remember the gaming public mentality back then and after the DC era just goes to solidify my point. And you aren't even original to come up with an original retort of your own, you had to use mine. That exposes you more than it does me. How sad.
And I wasn't talking just about the sega forums but gaming forums in general which I made clear. If you can't even get someone's actual statement right don't expect people to think you are correct in anything you say.
As stated here.
You'd almost think that since they've gone third party those are the only great games they've produced after the DC era. And that criticism isn't leveled at just sega fans but most fans of gaming who frequent gaming forums
And its funny how you haven't been able to address anything i said properly. What's misleading? That the DC has a more better reliability rate than the PS2s? That the DC online service was better to the PS2 which was barely non-exsistant? That the great DC game designs were much better executed than the PS2 ones? Come on let's see how much of that is actually misleading? The answer is obvious down to the reason you never really adressed it in the first place,because you can't.
As for your list of games to prove the PS2 was better. Puh leeze. I could make a list of Nintendo titles compared to Master system titles and make out who had the better libary, simply because the nintendo had more titles.
[/quote]
You're right.
And in terms of the number of quality games, the NES would come out on top over the Master System
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No it wouldn't bar from certain Nintendo first party games(which are quite small) and as couple of third parties the majority of NES software are bad titles. Quality over quantity any time.
Did you bother reading at all? :P
I suggest you take your own advice.
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PDCTSD- post dreamcast traumatic stress disorder
The real trauma of dreamcast was the tragedy of seeing a real gamer's game system, the best to ever be produced, annihilated by the corporate steam rollers of Sony and Microsoft and the wave of mainstream gaming fuckwads they brought in replacing the real gamers of old.
It's never been a problem of old vs new Sega; it's a problem of old-school gaming versus mainstream gaming. Sega like any other company is forced to produce the games that the market will accept and be commercially viable. I have no doubt that existing Sega developers given free reign today could produce titles that would eclipse the DC era ones in every regard. The problem is one of commercial acceptance and profitability in a mainstream dominated market forcing Sega to 'corporatize' their game design process with titles acceptable to the mass market first over the demands and wishes of the Sega loyalists; this in total contrast to the freedom of the independent studio DC days.
Demanding fans are an asset not a liability.
The old Sega game design mentality was giving the fans what they need but not necessarly what they want. What that means is Sega as a company never really looked backward, they always strived forward in creating the next game,which is why in part no one saw sequels to fan fave series or only got to see an update of that series after a very long gap despite if it was succesful or not among various reasons. What happened after the DC era in my honest opinon is that after seeing a good system go down with solid software and then struggling to recapture the western markets they entered into what I call a company depression and that's when the distraction came in at leasrt where the west is concerned.
Designing games to applease the fans and trying too hard to match up to their DC legacy became a distraction to the point that it resulted in disastrous results. And the games that they were designing that did applease the commerical side of things were their japan centric titles that were never going to catch on in the States. And most of thiose titles were for the casual to kindergarten market.
If anyone team that suffered from this and really suffered I'd say it had to be no doubt Sonic Team, who's natural progression to becoming the consumer version of AM2 was severly stopped in its tracks after the death of DC. The titles outside of Sonic were not only great games but great designs and great ideas. What started in the middle era of ther Saturn was crtuelly halted and now Sonic Team is not even a shadow of its former self. If the DC hadn't died who knows what titles they would have released if their progress was allowed to grow organically. It was also a pity that their original PS3 title was put on hold and then canned never came out or we might have seen them return to more original game design and recapture some of that glory and reputation they were slowly but surely building up for themselves. Now with titles like NIGHTS Wii and half the post Sonic adventure style crap that won't happen anytime soon.
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Haven't had time to read this thread until now. I pretty much totally agree!
In fact Joe, if you would like to make a 'final perfect copy' of your opinions here, maybe anything you forgot to mention others may have interjected etc.
I would like to make this into a front page article... full credit to you of course.
Yeah you can use it, I don't have the time to do it myself as Shadi suggested because of work(The reason I'm away for longer periods and basically not around the forums like i use to be) so do whatever you want with it if ya gonna uise it, edit away.
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And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.
Nope, I'm not being biased, I'm giving an honest opinion. Every time that I walk to the Xbox 360 section of a store, nothing is ever there that I care about. I've never had this big of a problem with any other console that I've owned before.
Additionally, of the 4 Xbox 360 retail titles I own:
-Two are also on PS3 (And one is better on PS3 due to free online play)
-One is from a series that's better on PS3 (Katamari Forever > Beautiful Katamari)
-One is a compilation of XBLA and arcade titles (Namco Museum Virtual Arcade)
If it weren't for XBLA titles and a few Indie games, I likely wouldn't even care about the 360 at all. There isn't a lot of something for everyone; aside from the Kinect, the main focus has largely been the Western mainstream gramer.
Thanks Sanus (+5 dharma points). It would be very stupid of me to jump on a hater bandwagon when I have no real life reason or experiences to lead me to hate something.
Okay, Barry, so I've had 3 busted Dreamcasts in my life, as well as seen friend's DC that was malfunctional straight out of the box.
Does that mean it's fair for me to hate the DC and love the PS2 for that reason then? After all, in the 8 years I've had my PS2, it's never broken on me. And don't try to dodge this question, either; give it a straight yes or no answer.
No you didn't own a DC at 99 so stop lying to me and to yourself.
Yep, any credibility you might have had just went flying through the window. :lol: I saved up for the console myself and got it along with Sonic Adventure, Soul Calibur, and Marvel vs. Capcom. Then I ran out and got Power Stone after playing the awesome demo on the DC Generator disc that came with the system. I bought ODCM issue #1 off of a newsstand around August of 1999 and got a subscription to it immediately, and I still play around with those demo discs I got every now and then. 2000 was possibly the best gaming year of my life; I was totally obsessed with this marvelous system to the point that it drove other people nuts when I blabbed on and on about it. I didn't want to believe the rumors that SEGA was going to drop out of the race. This was too good of a thing to stop.
But, you know how many other gamer friends of mine gave a shit about Dreamcast at the time? Nobody. Nobody at all. :P Everyone knew that it was going to be steamrolled by the PS2, and nobody wanted to get one at first. A few of them even made fun of me for buying one back in '99. I had to convince them over the next year that it was a great console. By the end of 2000, it was like the go-to party game machine. 8-)
That the DC online service was better to the PS2 which was barely non-exsistant?
Question: Have you ever even played PS2 games online before? Because I haven't, and I've only ever known one person who has. How could you draw comparisons to something that virtually no one has experience with?
As for DC's online, it wasn't that great in retrospect. The games I tried playing online had way too much lag in them to be considered fair tests of competitive skill. Bomberman Online was the worst example of this. A lot of the times, I'd win/lose without really knowing what the hell happened. I guess the horrific lag might have been acceptable in games that were more cooperative oriented, but I didn't own any of those.
The only way I could imagine having a good competitive experience on the DC is if a person forked over the 100 bucks for the broadband adapter and then went out to find other players who also had the adapter.
So yeah... the DC might have had online out of the box, but it wasn't particularly great online gaming out of the box, either.
That the great DC game designs were much better executed than the PS2 ones?
Only in your warped gaming fantasy world that exists outside of actual reality. :lol:
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But, you know how many other gamer friends of mine gave a shit about Dreamcast at the time? Nobody. Nobody at all. :P Everyone knew that it was going to be steamrolled by the PS2, and nobody wanted to get one at first. A few of them even made fun of me for buying one back in '99. I had to convince them over the next year that it was a great console. By the end of 2000, it was like the go-to party game machine. 8-)
Having owned a dreamcast since 9/9/99 I have to say this is the goddamn truth. The only difference in my case is that no one ever became interested in getting one. They were all too happy to play countless hours of dynasty warriors or armored core on their hip new ps2s.
Im not sure what we're arguing about here tbh. Obviously comparing these games will eventually come down to taste and circumstance. Yes, the ps2 had a bigger and more diverse library. But the reasons for that are so obvious that its not even worth discussing.
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Does that mean it's fair for me to hate the DC and love the PS2 for that reason then? After all, in the 8 years I've had my PS2, it's never broken on me. And don't try to dodge this question, either; give it a straight yes or no answer.
If the entirety of the last five pages boiled down to personal hardware failure/success experiences I'd have a reply to the above. But since it ignores a good 95% of what we've all been talking about, and assumes that everything we've been saying outside of personal hardware failures is irrelevant, I'm going to have to call it a stupid question that doesn't deserve an answer.
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If the entirety of the last five pages boiled down to personal hardware failure/success experiences I'd have a reply to the above. But since it ignores a good 95% of what we've all been talking about, and assumes that everything we've been saying outside of personal hardware failures is irrelevant, I'm going to have to call it a stupid question that doesn't deserve an answer.
Lol, you ignore the vast majority of what I write in my posts, you know. Pot calling the kettle black, part deux.
Also, I knew you wouldn't be able to answer the question. xD Nice dodging.
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Fucking read what I wrote. If you want an answer it is "The question you asked was stupid because it took a small piece of my argument and made it the end-all answer." Also, wasn't this entire topic about SEGA's software?
(http://http://www.jerzeedevil.com/gallery/files/4/derail2.jpg)
Get the train back on track, stop trolling or get a warning.
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I don't agree that the DC was SEGA at its very best (well bar AM#1). For me that was with the SEGA Saturn
I think we can all agree that each major SEGA platform had a lot of greatness on it. Outside of maybe the Master System, each major game console they made has multiple games that people who never even touched can recognize as some of the best, most creative games of all time. That is an accomplishment that many platforms cannot uphold.
And that is awkward bias talking. The Xbox 360 has a lot of all kinds of games on it. Probably more than the PlayStation 3 does, even. It has more so it is easily possible.
Nope, I'm not being biased, I'm giving an honest opinion.
An opinion is not claiming something as a fact. Which you tried to, and I only pointed out why reasons like backwards compatibility should not count.
Every time that I walk to the Xbox 360 section of a store, nothing is ever there that I care about. I've never had this big of a problem with any other console that I've owned before.
If it weren't for XBLA titles and a few Indie games, I likely wouldn't even care about the 360 at all. There isn't a lot of something for everyone; aside from the Kinect, the main focus has largely been the Western mainstream gramer.
This seems like blind bias to me. With thousands of releases, and the majority of them being on both platforms it just seems like you are not trying hard enough or purposely trying to hate on it. I saw you doing this with releases like Halo ODST, where you made multiple threads on SEGA.com trying to get people to vote on it being the worst game of the year when you never even played it yourself, or even knew much about it, like the story. It all just screams to me that you want to hate it.
And there are plenty of releases on all platforms (yeah, even Wii) that can appeal to anyone, you just are not looking hard enough. Even so, what is wrong with "Western mainstream" games? Just because something is designed around a certain kind of appeal does not mean it is instantly shit. You told me you loved games like DOOM... Doesn't get much more "Western" and "Mainstream" than DOOM...
I mean, have you heard of DeathSmiles, Earth Defense Force 2017, WarTech, Spectral Force 3, Guilty Gear 2 or Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise? This is just off the top of my head and these are all games I think you would enjoy. They are also all exclusive to the Xbox 360.
Additionally, of the 4 Xbox 360 retail titles I own:
-Two are also on PS3 (And one is better on PS3 due to free online play)
That is a bullshit reason if I ever saw one. You pay to play on Xbox Live, yeah, but not for each game individually like your post made it sound.
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Article up:
http://www.segabits.com/?p=4180 (http://www.segabits.com/?p=4180)
feel free to comment. (kindly.)
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Kudos ROJM! A great article for a great post! :D
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Get the train back on track, stop trolling or get a warning.
You'd really give me a warning for something that you've been guilty of actively participating in as well? :lol: Ooookay... Well, to be honest, I was kind of bored of this topic anyway. So I guess I'll just draw my end of this conversation to a close:
No, the Dreamcast did not traumatize gaming. This topic's title is beyond misleading. It may have traumatized a few people in a very minuscule fanbase, but that's about the extent of it.
That fanbase, itself, is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It has as little effect on public opinion of SEGA as the Dreamcast had on stopping the PS2. :P
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I think we can all agree that each major SEGA platform had a lot of greatness on it. Outside of maybe the Master System, each major game console they made has multiple games that people who never even touched can recognize as some of the best, most creative games of all time. That is an accomplishment that many platforms cannot uphold.
I really don't know what most people's problem with the MS is. Its a gem of console, that's always been the but of jokes and overlooked and underrated. Its a far better console than the NES, and If I'm honest I probably enjoyed and rate the console above the Mega Drive. Its just a gem of console with a classic range of games
Also I do think people look back on the DC with just a bit too much rose tinted classes, and I do get a bit sick of the 09.09.99 date . When to me the DC real birthday was the years 1998 (when it launched) and when in a lot of gaming genre's the DC was weaker to that of the Mega Drive or Saturn - namely fighters, shooters (both 2D and 3D), sports, RPG's, Gun games.
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I was not saying anything bad about the Master System, just that it is not as well known for having extremely creative and innovative games that many consider to be the best ever by the general populous, like all of SEGA's other major platforms do. Just calling it like I see it. I love it myself. Probably more than I do the Saturn honestly.
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I was not saying anything bad about the Master System, just that it is not as well known for having extremely creative and innovative games that many consider to be the best ever by the general populous, like all of SEGA's other major platforms do. Just calling it like I see it. I love it myself. Probably more than I do the Saturn honestly.
The Mega Drive doesn't have that many innovative games, nor does the Dreamcast when you really get down to it . There's a couple here and there , but nothing to what the the PS2 or PS can boast really.
I couldn't careless about innovation, its all about the games and how they play. And to me the Saturn , like the Master System feature some of the best and most playable games around. Yet are consoles looked over by most (especially Americans) because the Platforms failed to take off over there (I feel)
I love and still and use my Japanese Launch Dreamcast (it still works fine) but I just think that SEGA as a whole (TA, AM#3, AM#2, Sonic Team, Overworks) and my fav 3rd parties like Treasure, GameArts, RAIZING) were just at their height on the Saturn .
I was talking to my mate who runs the Import shop the other day, and its seemed with the death of the Saturn, Part of the likes of Technosoft, Game Arts, Treasure, RAIZING died too- Gamearts and Treasure just haven't been the same (for me)
Sad really , Looking game. I feel the SEGA Saturn was the last great Die-Hard gamers console.
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Thanks Sanus (+5 dharma points). It would be very stupid of me to jump on a hater bandwagon when I have no real life reason or experiences to lead me to hate something.
Okay, Barry, so I've had 3 busted Dreamcasts in my life, as well as seen friend's DC that was malfunctional straight out of the box.
Does that mean it's fair for me to hate the DC and love the PS2 for that reason then? After all, in the 8 years I've had my PS2, it's never broken on me. And don't try to dodge this question, either; give it a straight yes or no answer.
Yet this is the guy who can't give any straight answers to well executed game designs on the PS2. And first you've had to have at least OWNED a DC for it to break down which i very much doubt. Sony's PS2 breakdown record is not only a fact but a famous one, Anyone apart from you knows that so trying to make out that your "Dc's" broke down to excuse Sony's is sad. Sony had more breakdowns than any console in recorded history, only the 360 would be a close second to it. The fact that someone like Shinji Mikami went on radio and criticised Sony for its unreliable consoles years ago goes to show how bad it was.
No you didn't own a DC at 99 so stop lying to me and to yourself.
Yep, any credibility you might have had just went flying through the window. :lol: I saved up for the console myself and got it along with Sonic Adventure, Soul Calibur, and Marvel vs. Capcom. Then I ran out and got Power Stone after playing the awesome demo on the DC Generator disc that came with the system. I bought ODCM issue #1 off of a newsstand around August of 1999 and got a subscription to it immediately, and I still play around with those demo discs I got every now and then. 2000 was possibly the best gaming year of my life; I was totally obsessed with this marvelous system to the point that it drove other people nuts when I blabbed on and on about it. I didn't want to believe the rumors that SEGA was going to drop out of the race. This was too good of a thing to stop.
But, you know how many other gamer friends of mine gave a shit about Dreamcast at the time? Nobody. Nobody at all. :P Everyone knew that it was going to be steamrolled by the PS2, and nobody wanted to get one at first. A few of them even made fun of me for buying one back in '99. I had to convince them over the next year that it was a great console. By the end of 2000, it was like the go-to party game machine. 8-)
That story is completly and utterly madeup. I'm sorry but you are the very "bandwagon" jumpers that the article refers to. Trying to prove that you were there by coming up with some personal story of getting the games and then using it as a legitmate reason to show distain. If you really brought that system there is no way in hell you'd think the PS2 was a better machine with better games. No way mate just no way in hell. So stop lying to yourself because you're fooling no one.
That the DC online service was better to the PS2 which was barely non-exsistant?
Question: Have you ever even played PS2 games online before? Because I haven't, and I've only ever known one person who has. How could you draw comparisons to something that virtually no one has experience with?
Why not? Sony made a big song and dance about its online service as well as its DVD inclusion for the PS2 which was part of the reason people waited to buy the PS2 over the DC instead. Yet the very thing which was supposed to make it superior was an utter disaster with crap games, a cack service and it didn't even come out until way after it was on the market and by then the Xbox was not only already out it had a better online mode to boot. A period of nearly three years the much vaulted online mode didn't exist and then came out with shooddy tech and service when it did. that too me was one of the biggest con jobs in gaming history to have ever taken place and the biggest vapourware ever to come out.
As for DC's online, it wasn't that great in retrospect. The games I tried playing online had way too much lag in them to be considered fair tests of competitive skill. Bomberman Online was the worst example of this. A lot of the times, I'd win/lose without really knowing what the hell happened. I guess the horrific lag might have been acceptable in games that were more cooperative oriented, but I didn't own any of those.
Well its hard to play the DC online now that its defunct. Too bad you didn't buy it at the time you should have because then you'd know half that story is bull, especially when at that period it would have been many gamers first foray into online gaming.
The only way I could imagine having a good competitive experience on the DC is if a person forked over the 100 bucks for the broadband adapter and then went out to find other players who also had the adapter.
Yet the BB adapter was a limited run and came way too late in the DC's span to really make a splash(as well as way too soon for the consumers to jump towards BB in general) Again another example of someone using hindsight of recorded events instead of actually being there and experiencing them.
So yeah... the DC might have had online out of the box, but it wasn't particularly great online gaming out of the box, either.
Better than the PS2 version which was the point.
That the great DC game designs were much better executed than the PS2 ones?
Only in your warped gaming fantasy world that exists outside of actual reality. :lol:
Yet you STILL haven't made any comparisions on any PS2 title that were original with their game designs and executed them better. Again solidifying my point that you can't because deep down you KNOW that sega had better game designs and then you'd eexpect us to believe you were a DC fan at the actual period of the time. You are acting like many others of your ilk a johnny come lately who in order to make themselves crediable has to say they owned a DC at the time when its clear to some here that you haven't. You're calling me warped for thinking that the sega DC titles are better in game design than the PS2? That's the opinion of half the people in here. That's probably the opinion of a lot of worthwhile gaming historians as well especially when we look at the big picture hardly anyone including those basted pro game sites and the real good ones hardly ever praise the PS2 and its games with as much passion and vigour and as frequent as they do with the DC and that's when its not the DC's anniversary.
Now I've wasted too much time on you, kid. Go back to your PS loving forums and remember how you ingrates ruined gaming for the rest of us.
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I was not saying anything bad about the Master System, just that it is not as well known for having extremely creative and innovative games that many consider to be the best ever by the general populous, like all of SEGA's other major platforms do. Just calling it like I see it. I love it myself. Probably more than I do the Saturn honestly.
Stop wasting time on him SU. If you said the sky was blue he'd come up with 40 different reasons why the sky isn't blue even though the bloody thing is staring at him in the face. he's just saying it just to stand out and be different to the rest of us "lesser mortals."
We all know the DC games from Sega was Sega at their peak and the actual system itself was quite good as well. This is a fact which isn't worth debating about and not a handful of sega titles on the saturn no matter how good they are will negate that fact.
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This thread has gone mad. I should lock this... but it's kinda like watching a really bad movie.
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I'd say keep it open, mainly because we have a front page story leading to this same discussion. As long as we all ignore fluffy (remember folks, we have a handy "Friends & Foes" feature), he'll eventually find another topic to troll and let ROJM's topic continue on track.
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We all know the DC games from Sega was Sega at their peak and the actual system itself was quite good as well
Stop being so bloody insulting . You start off a great thread and then go in to your usual insulting rants . There's quite a few that SEGA was at their best with the Mega Drive, for others its the Saturn and for other's its the Dreamcast. Lots of gamers have different views on which system they like best, be they SEGA or NCL fans (to most its the Snes, to others its the N64) or what ever.
I happen to like Traditional Shooters (My Fav Genre) , Gun Games, RPG's, FPS's and Sports games. SEGA and the Saturn were pretty mighty in those genre's.
A period of nearly three years the much vaulted online mode didn't exist and then came out with shooddy tech and service when it did. that too me was one of the biggest con jobs in gaming history to have ever taken place and the biggest vapourware ever to come out
Most of what you say is quite correct, and I too hate all the SONY lines over the PS2 Network .
But they were a great number of PS2 games that were online, and some that even played well too This Is Football 2004/5 was very impressive Online (with very little lag, and being able to handle more than 4 players online, more than most football games at the time ). Yes to the X-Box they were a complete joke, but that goes with out saying, X-Box LIVE since its launch has been the best online service there is .
Mind you out of all the lies with the PS2, its On-line promises were the worst
Too bad you didn't buy it at the time you should have because then you'd know half that story is bull, especially when at that period it would have been many gamers first foray into online gaming.
There were quite a few DC games that suffered from Lag from time to time. It was just the nature of the network at the time, One gets lag in Online games now on the 360 or PS2. I really don't get this at the time
I couldn't play NFL 2k1 online at all (never once was able to play a game online), had to play Daytona USA 2001 (at 2am Fridays Nights to be lag free , and it really did work) and the likes of Alien Front Online , Quake III, Unreal Tournament (amazing fun).
Ok in most cases I was on USA serves and using USA imports , but one would still get lag in games like Quake III, and playing the likes of Bomberman, Ooga booga, Out Trigger just a bit of a nightmare for lag
PSO was pretty much lag free.
But there was Lag on the DC games, but that was to be expected and the downfalls of Dial Up, there again lag was a Huge problem in Japanese developed X-Box Live games
But yes for me the 1st time I played games Online was with my DC, and still remember to this day my mates jaws dropping and couldn't quite believe how I was playing games like Quake III and PSO with players from around the world.
I'm sure anyone that played PSO Online on the DC remembers just how magical and how so very special it was ,when it 1st launched.
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Hey, please no personal attack! (Everyone)
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We all know the DC games from Sega was Sega at their peak and the actual system itself was quite good as well
Stop being so bloody insulting . You start off a great thread and then go in to your usual insulting rants . There's quite a few that SEGA was at their best with the Mega Drive, for others its the Saturn and for other's its the Dreamcast. Lots of gamers have different views on which system they like best, be they SEGA or NCL fans (to most its the Snes, to others its the N64) or what ever.
I happen to like Traditional Shooters (My Fav Genre) , Gun Games, RPG's, FPS's and Sports games. SEGA and the Saturn were pretty mighty in those genre's.
Stop over reacting FFS, if i was insulting you, you'd know about it. And this isn't a disscussion on personal opinion on whether the Dc was the best system or the saturn was really. Its general concesus that the DC was Sega at their very peak. That's it. My personal opinion would be the MD but were not talking about fave systems were talking specifically about an aftermath of a great system which had an exceptional list of games. Were talking about historical facts So there is no need to act like Fluff who's trolling and start banging on about your saturn crusade just to be different from the rest just to get a reaction. Which is what i believe is what you're doing. Stick to the topic at hand.
A period of nearly three years the much vaulted online mode didn't exist and then came out with shooddy tech and service when it did. that too me was one of the biggest con jobs in gaming history to have ever taken place and the biggest vapourware ever to come out
Most of what you say is quite correct, and I too hate all the SONY lines over the PS2 Network .
But they were a great number of PS2 games that were online, and some that even played well too This Is Football 2004/5 was very impressive Online (with very little lag, and being able to handle more than 4 players online, more than most football games at the time ). Yes to the X-Box they were a complete joke, but that goes with out saying, X-Box LIVE since its launch has been the best online service there is .
Mind you out of all the lies with the PS2, its On-line promises were the worst
Yet if you'd read the response post that started this distraction with fluffy, compared to the DC it pales in comparison. Which still is true. by the time xbox came out the online service sony used was too late and out of date. But as i said a distraction because it wasn't what i initially wanted to talk about or degrade the thread into who was the better system.
There were quite a few DC games that suffered from Lag from time to time. It was just the nature of the network at the time, One gets lag in Online games now on the 360 or PS2. I really don't get this at the time
I couldn't play NFL 2k1 online at all (never once was able to play a game online), had to play Daytona USA 2001 (at 2am Fridays Nights to be lag free , and it really did work) and the likes of Alien Front Online , Quake III, Unreal Tournament (amazing fun).
Ok in most cases I was on USA serves and using USA imports , but one would still get lag in games like Quake III, and playing the likes of Bomberman, Ooga booga, Out Trigger just a bit of a nightmare for lag
PSO was pretty much lag free.
But there was Lag on the DC games, but that was to be expected and the downfalls of Dial Up, there again lag was a Huge problem in Japanese developed X-Box Live games
But yes for me the 1st time I played games Online was with my DC, and still remember to this day my mates jaws dropping and couldn't quite believe how I was playing games like Quake III and PSO with players from around the world.
I'm sure anyone that played PSO Online on the DC remembers just how magical and how so very special it was ,when it 1st launched.
But that wasn't the point. The point was online (let's leave out the saturn) was new to gamers who brought consoles at the time and it could only work with what was really available at the time. Granted i remember some people made an issue of the choice of modem sega used for the DC at the time which sega obviously planned to slove with the BB adaptor but the point was that Flff seems to be using what were use to now with the 360 and everything to what was alvalible back then. BB was only really starting to become widely alvailble to people in general so lag time and that element would have been normal considering what sega had to deal with what was around at the time. No denying it had issues but the reality of whose online service was better i think we all know that.
Now let's get back topic wise.
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Were talking about historical facts So there is no need to act like Fluff who's trolling and start banging on about your saturn crusade just to be different from the rest just to get a reaction
What historical facts are these ?. The DC didn't change gaming for the masses at all, The sad reality is there were all hopelessly caught up in MGS 2 hype and PS2 to give the Dreamcast much of a chance.
And pointing out that SEGA were for me better on the Saturn isn't trolling at all, its how I feel, there's quite a few people that like Saturn, not to be different , but because they tend to be shooter fans , or 2D Fighter fans, and the Saturn was mighty in those regards.
Yet if you'd read the response post that started this distraction with fluffy, compared to the DC it pales in comparison
Look there was a huge number of games that supported Online Network on the PS2, more than for the DC I'm willing to bet (just down to the PS2 insane 3rd party support) .
People might take the piss out of the PS2 network (and I'm one of them) but TIF 2005 supported 8 players online (more than any other football game at the time) as well as more MMRPG's than what MS can boast even now, with EverQuest and the likes of FF 12 , as well as the Only Online version of Resident Evil (at the time) .
SEGA deserver all the credit in the world , for being 1st with Online has standard and even true 1st's like its classic downloads PC-Eng/Mega Drive range (which as since been copied by SONY, MS and NCL) But The DC network support was limited and prone to lag (due to dial up) perfectly natural given it was early basic steps into the world of Online gaming.
To me what was really special about the DC was how it was such a leap in Power over anything out there at the time, for the 1st time a console with more power than the latest coin ups .
How it was the 1st to suppport VGA, how its transformed USA sport gaming for ever (and I mean forever), with Visual Concepts (games that looked and moved so good it was like watching TV) and then VC took that to the real next level and gave American Online NFL matches. It was incredible to read the reactions on the Web and the reviews, they were great times , my mate used to keep on saying if you squint your eye's a bit , its watching the NFL on TV (and it really was)
So it was when JSR 1st shipped- which to me is the most SEGA game ever created , I still remember very well phoning my mate and saying REZ is the 2nd Best game SEGA ever made, and how you must BUY IT (great times) We all have so many happy memories of the Dreamcast, but I still like my Saturn far more. Not to be cool or some how Anti .
But because SAGA, VF II, Decathlete (who else but SEGA could make a sports game like that) SEGA Rally, Panzer Dragon Zwei, Burning Rangers , Astal, Worldwide Soccer 98, was SEGA at their very best, but to some that was the Mega Drive with games like Sonic, Shinobi Mickey Mouse ECT .
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Another problem sega will always have is catering to an ever expanding list of IPs. Every year we demand sequels to everything ever and also new IPs. and there are people who will hate the new IPs for not being sequels to old games and people who will hate sequels for not being new IPs. and even IF they managed to do both there are people who dont want sequels or new IPs and just want direct ports of old games for eternity. Right now I see people who dont care how amazing PSO2 will be they want Phantasy Star 5 or a direct port of gamecube PSO etc
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I'd say keep it open, mainly because we have a front page story leading to this same discussion. As long as we all ignore fluffy (remember folks, we have a handy "Friends & Foes" feature), he'll eventually find another topic to troll and let ROJM's topic continue on track.
Or you could simply ban him.
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I do not think Sony messed up with online stuff on the PlayStation 2, they just did not plan it at the start. It is like how the Xbox 360 is getting forced into Kinect and it all gets awkward and seems to be a waste of people in many peoples opinions. Just like PlayStation Network fixed a lot of stuff, the next console will do it all better because they will not be firing blind anymore and have a small idea of how to work it, I am sure.
When you purchased the PlayStation 2 modem you would get Twisted Metal Black Online free, that was pretty cool. There were also some titles based online that were pretty popular, like Metal Gear, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Jak X and for whatever reason, SOCOM. All of this was nothing compared to SEGA's attempts on the Dreamcast, or arguably even the Saturn, but I would not consider it a failure, like GameCube's!
I'd say keep it open, mainly because we have a front page story leading to this same discussion. As long as we all ignore fluffy (remember folks, we have a handy "Friends & Foes" feature), he'll eventually find another topic to troll and let ROJM's topic continue on track.
Or you could simply ban him.
What a novel concept!
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What historical facts are these ?. The DC didn't change gaming for the masses at all, The sad reality is there were all hopelessly caught up in MGS 2 hype and PS2 to give the Dreamcast much of a chance.
And pointing out that SEGA were for me better on the Saturn isn't trolling at all, its how I feel, there's quite a few people that like Saturn, not to be different , but because they tend to be shooter fans , or 2D Fighter fans, and the Saturn was mighty in those regards.
One thing everyone knows that the DC leagcy on gaming really happened after its brief apperence on the scene, another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain.
And yes stop trolling. This topic isn't about what system you perfer its about one specific system and how it affected gaming. We all know and are tired about how you love the bloody saturn. Wanna make a topic on it be my guest but don't bring it here when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
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another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain
There is no game like Heavy Rain on the DC at all (if you going to bring up QTA every game as copied that, and some may argue Dragon's Lair was the 1st) . Please don't bring up Shenmue, because both games are totally different.
It should also be noted that Omikron, The Nomad Soul also came out on the DC, by the same developer as heavy Rain and that was quite a lot like Shenmue in terms of scale
If you're going to bring Up PS online, PSO was basically Diablo on a console.
If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.
If you're going to bring up Space Channel 5, remember it was the PS and the likes of Papara the Rapper that really gave birth to the rythem games on the consoles.
Samba ?, Sadly Namco beat SEGA to it with Taiko No Tatsujin
Seaman -Sadly NCL beat SEGA to that with Hey you Pikachu!
Skies of Arcadia - Well its hardly the 1st RPG
REZ - Hardly the only 3D shooter
Classic Download service- well maybe that was a true 1st, though NCL fans will no doubt bring up Sattleview
The trouble is the Japanese have made a living out of taking other peoples and ideas and simply mass producing them and making them better, Nobody more than SEGA
The DC is a brilliant and special console, but don't over play the fact that it played host to true 1st , because it really didn't . That doesn't make it any less specia
its all about the games, and why the DC is so special to many , was down to the games, not being true 1st. But because they looked and played so good
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If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.
Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.
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Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.
Cartoon did you say?, my point exactly and it doesn't matter if it was using Pre Render backgrounds, this was the PS and the effect on the Characters much the same .To make out that Looney Tunes is fake is just a bit laughable.
In terms of True 1st consoles coming after the 8 bit era, never mind the 32Bit will have a hard time, simply down to the genre's being done before in some form or another .That doesn't lessen their impact or make them any less special. Does anybody really care that PSO wasn't the 1st Online RPG ?, does anyone really care that Daytona USA was the 1st racer or Nascar game, That Saga wasn't the 1st RPG (or I think where you don't have a party)
Who really cares well they look and play so good ?
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Just a quick chime-in, then I'll be on my merry way:
the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.
Um... you could turn off the cel-shading in JSR as well, if you were the developer. O_o
If you're going to argue that it's "fake", then why not argue that all computer rendered graphics are "fake"?
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Cel-Shading on a technical level is a filter that overlaps all of the polygons. There are ways to 'fake' it like how Looney Tunes Space Race did, it is just lines over the characters. Super Smash Brothers Melee did this too when Kirby ate Mr Game & Watch.
Fear Effect is not a Cel-Shaded game, it just has bright cartoony graphics coming from their textures, it has no filter.
A good example I think is Dark Cloud 2 or Klonoa 2. These games look Cel-Shaded, but are not. The character polygons have lines over them, but the world around them is just cartoony textures. In fact, the PlayStation 2 cannot do true Cel-Shading at all, which is why it was done in Jet Set Radio to turn heads away from that platform. A similar thing was done with Chaos in Sonic Adventure, as all previous consoles could not do a textured see-through effect, so they specifically made the character this way to impress people.
Something that is truly Cel-Shaded is something like The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker. I am pretty sure there is even a way to turn off the filter, the change is noticed instantly.
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Fear Effect was a bunch of pre-rendered areas with the cartooney characters and the shader in Looney Tunes is a fake, you can actually turn on and off the black outline of the characters.
Cartoon did you say?, my point exactly and it doesn't matter if it was using Pre Render backgrounds, this was the PS and the effect on the Characters much the same .To make out that Looney Tunes is fake is just a bit laughable.
It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye.
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It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye
I know the tech, and inside SEGA it was called "Manga Dimension" ,and just a very clever use of the Power VR modifier Volume. SEGA loves to use fancy terms for its games, be it Blast Processing, FREE or Manga Dimension
And just because you can turn off effects in Space Race means nothing . There's games where you can turn off the Texture mapping, turn the Polygons into Wireframe and god knows what else (just play Moto GP for a huge list of GFX filter Effects as cheats), be they cheats or developer Easter egg's .
In fact, the PlayStation 2 cannot do true Cel-Shading at all, which is why it was done in Jet Set Radio to turn heads away from that platform
Just play Viewtiful Joe 1 and II, GioGio's Bizarre Adventure to see the PS2 handle Cell shading in all but name, they was also a Konami N64 Beat Them up that used Cel shading effect before JSR
In fact the DC could not do true Bump Mapping , but the effect was much the same In-game
A similar thing was done with Chaos in Sonic Adventure, as all previous consoles could not do a textured see-through effect,
I'm pretty sure the N64 could handle the effect
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It is, but I'm not arguing with someone who doesn't understand the tech. Bye
I know the tech, and inside SEGA it was called "Manga Dimension" ,and just a very clever use of the Power VR modifier Volume. SEGA loves to use fancy terms for its games, be it Blast Processing, FREE or Manga Dimension
And just because you can turn off effects in Space Race means nothing . There's games where you can turn off the Texture mapping, turn the Polygons into Wireframe and god knows what else (just play Moto GP for a huge list of GFX filter Effects as cheats), be they cheats or developer Easter egg's .
I stand by my point. You do not understand the tech. Cel-shading isn't just about setting a couple of variables on and off. With basic OpenGL knowledge anyone can turn solid objects into wireframe objects with almost no effort. Disabling textures is the same. Cel-shading isn't trivial as this is, as it involves giving the correct lighting to the correct amount of polygons to achieve the effect, the outline is added according to how the model is facing the camera. Lots of geometry. If you look closely in Looney Tunes you will see that the tracks have cartoonish textures aiming for that effect instead of consisting of cel-shaded polygons. JSR has this too, but it's not as predominant (ie, everywhere) and was likely implemented to optimize the game. The character models have some trait to cel-shading but I have difficulty believing they implement the actual technique, my guess is the developers aimed for a cartoonish look using traditional techniques instead of a cel-shaded approach.
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The character models have some trait to cel-shading but I have difficulty believing they implement the actual technique, my guess is the developers aimed for a cartoonish look using traditional techniques instead of a cel-shaded approach.
I remember very well the interview with the wacky Racers team, which also used a very similar effect , and when asked where did they get the idea for what was classed as 'Cel Shading' They said it wasn't JSR but they had been lucky enough to see a very each tech demo from Melbourn House which went on to become Looney Tunes,and early in it was using all sorts of Power VR effect to give the impression of a living cartoon in 3D
Cel-shading isn't trivial as this is, as it involves giving the correct lighting to the correct amount of polygons to achieve the effect, the outline is added according to how the model is facing the camera.
It can be, if your GFX card supports it like was the case with Moto GP on the X-Box.
And most times tech Nerds can get caught up to much .
Technically the Mega CD didn't do Sprite Scaling only Bitmap scaling to most the effect was just the same, Technically the Saturn did draw Polygons, but 2D disported sprites (warped from 4 angles) gave the same effect , and in both cases SEGA boasted about the Mega CD sprite scaling or the Polygons the Saturn could draw
I'm not sure how much actual 2D silicon Hardware support Modern consoles have for 2D sprites, but they seem to do a bloody good Job at it.
Now I love JSR and I love the Team that made it- The likes of Ueda-san ECT. But there is no getting away from the fact that there were a couple of games before JSR which used the same look (or similar effect ). Like the N64 wasn't the 1st gaming system to ship with 4 Joypad's ports has standard (Atari were the 1st) but like with JSR they more or less had such an impact, that they more or less standardised it.
I only wish Ueda-san was allowed to make his new Project, But alias it looks like its the Sonic Team for Ueda-sand
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Obviously the team got the idea elsewhere. So must have Smilebit. Cel-shaded graphics surely predate any of the commercial games we can think of. There are a lot of things in academic circuits most people will hear about in a few years, if they actually ever hear about it. If we're going that far, then neither Looney Tunes nor Jet Set Radio were anything new.
Visual trickery is done all the time in an attempt to achieve the same or better looking results. This is done by changing elements in the environment which "cost" less to process therefore leaving processing time to other tasks. The examples you gave are good, you probably notice a lot more every time you play a game. The fact that a system "wasn't supposed to do this" is more of a marketing ploy than anything since it's a matter of the programmers' skills to optimize and improvise (within the hardwares capabilities versus what is trying to be achieved of course). Remember though, hardware or software implementations of cel-shading didn't exist back in the day, these were hard work. Tech nerds know stuff. However, I don't know how Moto GP works (or the Xbox API and hardware) as I never played or read anything about it so I will not comment on the game's option of flicking the shader on and off. Reading spec sheets is too easy.
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So just to clarify, cel shading is not a filter, in spite of its name. Orta is correct in that it is a rendering technique which takes into account the orientation of each polygon in relation to the camera. Each polygon has an invisible perpendicular line called a normal, which is typically used to smoothly calculate various attributes such as shading, specularity, and so on... With cel-shading, interior polygons of a character (that is, ones that are not going to be outlined) are shaded in two or more distinct flat colors depending on the value of their angle to the camera (e.g., less than 45 degree angle will be a lighter color, whereas greater than 45 degrees will be a darker color). As for the outline, an additional instance of the entire character model is extruded to a slightly larger scale along the polygon normals. The outer surface of this additional model is invisible through backface culling, while the inner surface is black (or whatever color is selected for the outline). Only the inner surface which is 90 degrees perpendicular (or within another specified range of values) to the camera at a given moment is visible, thereby generating an outline. This technique of generating an outline therefore doubles the poly count of the model -- probably one of the main reasons we didn't see it used in prior generations of hardware. Although it is interesting that we also didn't previously see it in non-realtime applications like animated films... it seems to have been pioneered in games, but might also have been originated through academic research. Interesting that its origins are somewhat unclear.
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If we're going that far, then neither Looney Tunes nor Jet Set Radio were anything new.
To be something really new and unique is very hard, more so after the cross over to 3D graphics in the 32 Bit Generation.
When you get down to it , the Cel shading look had been done before, not as well, or in complete 3D granted, but Fear Effect does look like a Cel shading effect.
Tech nerds know stuff
Yes they do, but do people really care if its bitmaps being scaling in batman Returns, rather than sprites?, that it was background scaling in on Snes games (even though in some games it was made to look like a sprite) Who really cares where the overall effect is just the same
However, I don't know how Moto GP works (or the Xbox API and hardware)
You can simply put a cheat in to play the game with Cel shading graphics as well as countless other graphics fillers. A little bit like you can in Shenmue II on the X-Box and play the game with various graphics fillers enabled
And don't read into that that I'm underplaying the impact and legacy of JSR had on the gaming world. Its just that other games employed a similar effect before. Parappa The Rappa must have had some influence too
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another fact is that many games essentially copied titles that first made their apperence on the DC including your crappy heavy rain
There is no game like Heavy Rain on the DC at all (if you going to bring up QTA every game as copied that, and some may argue Dragon's Lair was the 1st) . Please don't bring up Shenmue, because both games are totally different.
It should also be noted that Omikron, The Nomad Soul also came out on the DC, by the same developer as heavy Rain and that was quite a lot like Shenmue in terms of scale
If you're going to bring Up PS online, PSO was basically Diablo on a console.
If you're going to bring in JSR, remember Fear Effect and Looney tunes space adventure, beat SEGA to cel shading.
If you're going to bring up Space Channel 5, remember it was the PS and the likes of Papara the Rapper that really gave birth to the rythem games on the consoles.
Samba ?, Sadly Namco beat SEGA to it with Taiko No Tatsujin
Seaman -Sadly NCL beat SEGA to that with Hey you Pikachu!
Skies of Arcadia - Well its hardly the 1st RPG
REZ - Hardly the only 3D shooter
Classic Download service- well maybe that was a true 1st, though NCL fans will no doubt bring up Sattleview
The trouble is the Japanese have made a living out of taking other peoples and ideas and simply mass producing them and making them better, Nobody more than SEGA
The DC is a brilliant and special console, but don't over play the fact that it played host to true 1st , because it really didn't . That doesn't make it any less specia
its all about the games, and why the DC is so special to many , was down to the games, not being true 1st. But because they looked and played so good
Don't make me laugh, Next thing you'll be telling us Nintendo had the idea for bringing out the Kawashima's style Brain training games before Sega did.Omikron AND HR both used the idea of the engine of SHENMUE and used it on other genres. That simple. Again half the titles were used to now is essentially down to the DC's influence with developers putting their spin on them. Half the titles you've mentioned didn't. Would capcom really have made monster hunter without PSO? Is that what you're saying? I didn't think so. The point that in the space between 2001- till now you can pinpoint a lot of games who have either ripped off or were inspired by the games that the DC presented. that's one of the reasons why its leagcy is important.
As far as i'm concerned the DC had the perfect balance between sega arcade gaming(even though some weren't perfect) and home development. The saturn didn't. Not to say the saturn didn't bring its own methods to the table which it did but unfortunatly aside from a small strong selection of sega first and second party titles it falls short way short if we were talking about Sega's output of games between the two systems. third party wise its probably one of the best supported in great jap third party titles outside the PCE for pure unadulterated gaming. but even then its a bit debatable on some of the TP's efforts because of the nature of what the DC had and the saturn had to offer.
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Like I said before, they were those types of Brain/educational onthe PC and even CDI, never mind BBC Micro and ZX Spectrum
I'll give NCL credit for making it into the sucess it became, not that they were the 1st to make it.
Lots of games are credited as being 1st, but there's been examples of them on forgotten consoles or computers . I know lots that like to credit Konami or Harmonics with being the 1st for music based games and controllers , when there was virtual Guitar on the PC back in early 90's
Yes with out PSO Capcom wouldn't have made HH just like SEGA would never have made Streets Of Rage with out Final Fight, no Final Fight with out the likes of Double Dragon or Kung Fu Master .
As far as i'm concerned the DC had the perfect balance between sega arcade gaming(even though some weren't perfect) and home development. The saturn didn't. Not to say the saturn didn't bring its own methods to the table which it did but unfortunatly aside from a small strong selection of sega first and second party titles it falls short way short if we were talking about Sega's output of games between the two systems. third party wise its probably one of the best supported in great jap third party titles outside the PCE for pure unadulterated gaming. but even then its a bit debatable on some of the TP's efforts because of the nature of what the DC had and the saturn had to offer.
Now that's better people can have a nice debate and point out each systems strengths and their own thoughts on the systems
Omikron AND HR both used the idea of the engine of SHENMUE and used it on other genres.
Omikron came out before Shenmue and was annouced before anyone had heard of Shenmue , infact it started development on the PS. I just don't know why you're going on the Shenmue engine. Its just an engine, and the French more than most have a long history in making very cinematic games, and real open world games were all coming into force with the birth of 3DFX cards on the PC and games like the The Elder Scroll series with part II really being one of the 1st to feature fully 3D worlds
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Like I said before, they were those types of Brain/educational onthe PC and even CDI, never mind BBC Micro and ZX Spectrum
I'll give NCL credit for making it into the sucess it became, not that they were the 1st to make it.
Lots of games are credited as being 1st, but there's been examples of them on forgotten consoles or computers . I know lots that like to credit Konami or Harmonics with being the 1st for music based games and controllers , when there was virtual Guitar on the PC back in early 90's
And let's missed the point shall we? I said Kawashima's style BT games i didn't say who started the genre first. Sega made the K BT game first Nintendo just did their version as a game and released it outside japan.Point is Nintendo wouldn't have bothered if they didn't see the results of sega's version.I don't need a history lesson in gaming but when it comes to certain subjects like sega you need a few educational tips.
Yes with out PSO Capcom wouldn't have made HH just like SEGA would never have made Streets Of Rage with out Final Fight, no Final Fight with out the likes of Double Dragon or Kung Fu Master .
Yawn and who turned up to be the better game? Copying a game and progressing a genre in a game are two entirely different things. PSO just progressed a genre that diablo started. Simpsons wild ride game or whatever it was called was a plain rip off copy and a bad one in that. That's essentially the point. The DC had many firsts and many spins on games and the instant impact it had on the industry is still plain to see with certain titles including HR. Unfortunatly people like you and others in this industry keep trying to minimise the impact of Sega and the DC had.
Now that's better people can have a nice debate and point out each systems strengths and their own thoughts on the systems
Please don't patronise me. If you stuck to the topic which you hardly ever do then any debates which you happen to have won't turn into a slagging fest, which you've been more guilty of in this forum than i have. I've given more fair comment on the saturn than you have for the DC and like i said countless times the DC isn't my sega system of choice.But i don't let my love for something blind me of what the contribution was.
Omikron came out before Shenmue and was annouced before anyone had heard of Shenmue , infact it started development on the PS. I just don't know why you're going on the Shenmue engine. Its just an engine, and the French more than most have a long history in making very cinematic games, and real open world games were all coming into force with the birth of 3DFX cards on the PC and games like the The Elder Scroll series with part II really being one of the 1st to feature fully 3D worlds
Really, Because I seem to remember SHENMUE getting scheduled for the saturn before it was stopped in 97,meaning the game started developement way before Omikron. Also remeber that shenmue video of the saturn version was doing the rounds way before then. So let's call a spade a spade and just say that Omikron was just an impressionistic copy of SHENMUE while HR is more or less a copy with some progressive points. Not that i can tell from looking at the game.
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Point is Nintendo wouldn't have bothered if they didn't see the results of sega's version
And this SEGA game was called what ?. I'll never make out that Nintendogs was the 1st true Pet sim, but NCL were smart enough to make it Huge.
PSO just progressed a genre that diablo started. Simpsons wild ride game or whatever it was called was a plain rip off copy and a bad one in that. That's essentially the point. The DC had many firsts and many spins on games and the instant impact it had on the industry is still plain to see with certain titles including HR. Unfortunatly people like you and others in this industry keep trying to minimise the impact of Sega and the DC had
PSO just took a format that worked on the PC and made it work on a Console, it was a work of true genius. Crazy Taxi was sort of a game quite unlike any other , but there were very few truly unique DC games , and that isn't to downplay the DC at all, or its impact on gaming.
As much as hate to say it, the PS would be a system with more truly unique games, and did more than most to establish new genre's (or ones that didn't really work on consoles before)
Please don't patronise me.
Even when ones tries to be nice, you have to throw a insult in . I just don't get it at all . I don't even hate the DC, at haven't a clue what ever would give you that idea (out of the SEGA systems I think the 32X and Gamegear were poor, the others brilliant)
Because I seem to remember SHENMUE getting scheduled for the saturn before it was stopped in 97
No-one ever knew of of the Shenmue Project until the Dreamcast talk was well established in 1998 and until Shenmue II on the DC, no-one ever knew it started out as a Saturn title . Omikron just wasn't really influenced by Shenmue at all
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And this SEGA game was called what ?. I'll never make out that Nintendogs was the 1st true Pet sim, but NCL were smart enough to make it Huge.
That's the story of Sega's career since the MS. Geez where have you been? Sega starts something NCL just copies it and manges to make it a bigger success. Not just NCL but a few others. You of all people SHOULD know that.
PSO just progressed a genre that diablo started. Simpsons wild ride game or whatever it was called was a plain rip off copy and a bad one in that. That's essentially the point. The DC had many firsts and many spins on games and the instant impact it had on the industry is still plain to see with certain titles including HR. Unfortunatly people like you and others in this industry keep trying to minimise the impact of Sega and the DC had
PSO just took a format that worked on the PC and made it work on a Console, it was a work of true genius. Crazy Taxi was sort of a game quite unlike any other , but there were very few truly unique DC games , and that isn't to downplay the DC at all, or its impact on gaming.
Again who argued with that? But it still progressed the genre. The DC had games that impacted on other game genres or kicked started it more than the PS ever did. And that's an acheivement considering the DC had a much shorter lifespan.
As much as hate to say it, the PS would be a system with more truly unique games, and did more than most to establish new genre's (or ones that didn't really work on consoles before)
More third parties, more user base but no it didn't really estabilsh more genres.
Please don't patronise me.
Even when ones tries to be nice, you have to throw a insult in . I just don't get it at all . I don't even hate the DC, at haven't a clue what ever would give you that idea (out of the SEGA systems I think the 32X and Gamegear were poor, the others brilliant)
Again you were patronising me pure and simple. So don't play the matry act.
No-one ever knew of of the Shenmue Project until the Dreamcast talk was well established in 1998 and until Shenmue II on the DC, no-one ever knew it started out as a Saturn title . Omikron just wasn't really influenced by Shenmue at all
Bollocks mate. Plain and simple.
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(someone put a TL;DR warning in the title please) ;p
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Sega starts something NCL just copies it and manges to make it a bigger success. Not just NCL but a few others. You of all people SHOULD know that.
I Just want to know is the name of this game and the system it was on . I just hope you're not on about some SEGA Toy game or some cheap electronic Hand-held game.
Many genre's and many games own thier origins to the USA and The West, the place that gave birth to Video games and Arcades .
SEGA is just as guilty as most for coping , like it did with SEGA GT, Columns, Streets Of Rage, Space Channel 5 ECT. Its not knocking SEGA since every corp as copied it other games and idea's over the years, and I mean ever Corp
The DC had games that impacted on other game genres or kicked started it more than the PS ever did. And that's an acheivement considering the DC had a much shorter lifespan.
More of the truth is that the PS gave birth or did more to establish genre's than the DC . Again , that's not knocing the DC, just saying that thanks to the PS insane popularity and support, that it meant a wide and varied almost limitless support of games , and the establishing on genre's that are bog standard on the consoles today.
Be that World War II FPS games with Medal Of Honour , Resident Evil (and countless other Horror copies) , the likes of GTA and open world games, Tenchu and Stealth gaming , or how GT changed racing for ever and was pretty devastating to SEGA who were the seen as most as the driving kings before hand) .
The PS was like the Mega Drive before it, the console that did so much to establishing genre's on consoles and a countless supply of different games.
I can't think of many consoles that had a Cooking game in it (like Ore No Ryouri ) or a Model Helicopter game on it like R/C Stunt Copter, or anything like Vib ribbon, or that consoles have games like Parappa The Rapper (before it was a smash) , Incredible Crisis and GOD knows how many more original titles.
Again you were patronising me pure and simple
No I was simply saying how nice it was that you did a post with no insults, no digs, just simply stating what you felt on the consoles in question. And to try and make out I hate or don't value the DC is simply totally incorrect
Here are my DC games, Please lets not try and make out I don't like, or did support the format
[youtube:39tpg964]X0PezUb1_WI[/youtube:39tpg964]
Bollocks mate. Plain and simple
But it is true . Virtual Fighter RPG talk did not start until talk of the DC was very well established and next to no-one knew it started life as a Saturn title, until Shenmue II came out, with that lovely little Easter Egg.
Simple fact is games like Too Human, Omikron started life as PS titles
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Just wanted to say that I enjoyed watching your vid Team Andromeda. Great stuff
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TA: Now you need some nice mahogany shelves with recessed lighting to house your collection. Also, hidden speakers that quietly play great Sega themes.
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I keep all my SEGA cases and boxes in safe keeping in the spare room, out of the way.Here's the rest of the SEGA stuff
[youtube:u151gqtc]6OVsyHuHnEc[/youtube:u151gqtc]
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I Just want to know is the name of this game and the system it was on . I just hope you're not on about some SEGA Toy game or some cheap electronic Hand-held game.
Many genre's and many games own their origins to the USA and The West, the place that gave birth to Video games and Arcades .
Lemme see before you said this game didn't exist and no you've changed your mind? How original. Here's a clue kid bone up on your sega history before you challenge me again. It s for you to find out.
And dude stop patronising me. Again there's copying and theres progressing. All the games you keep mentioning that you accuse sega of copying aren't copys they're just progressions. I'm getting FED up explaining this simple fact to you. Now you can keep trying to diminish the DC leagcy all you want but luckly the world doesn't revolve around you. And its a joke you mentioning the west when you can't even accept sega japan wasn't designing games until the early eighties and that there's a difference between japanese and western game design methods. You really are a joke.
SEGA is just as guilty as most for coping , like it did with SEGA GT, Columns, Streets Of Rage, Space Channel 5 ECT. Its not knocking SEGA since every corp as copied it other games and idea's over the years, and I mean ever Corp
Only two of those games are straight copys and three of them aren't DC originals. try again.
The DC had games that impacted on other game genres or kicked started it more than the PS ever did. And that's an acheivement considering the DC had a much shorter lifespan.
More of the truth is that the PS gave birth or did more to establish genre's than the DC . Again , that's not knocing the DC, just saying that thanks to the PS insane popularity and support, that it meant a wide and varied almost limitless support of games , and the establishing on genre's that are bog standard on the consoles today.
Be that World War II FPS games with Medal Of Honour , Resident Evil (and countless other Horror copies) , the likes of GTA and open world games, Tenchu and Stealth gaming , or how GT changed racing for ever and was pretty devastating to SEGA who were the seen as most as the driving kings before hand) .
The PS was like the Mega Drive before it, the console that did so much to establishing genre's on consoles and a countless supply of different games.
Utter rubbish RE was a MP game so i really don't know how you can come to that conclusion and FPS started life on the PCs,try again.
Again you were patronising me pure and simple
No I was simply saying how nice it was that you did a post with no insults, no digs, just simply stating what you felt on the consoles in question. And to try and make out I hate or don't value the DC is simply totally incorrect
Look i don't need you to try and patronise me or painting me into something that i'm not. Oh i can't make an opinion without an insult. REALLY? Let's look at most of the posts you did in this topic and see how many arguments you got into with three different people? That says more about you than it does about me. TA you are IMHO a liar in many of the discussions that i've seen you have with either me or other people. I really don't care for your opinion anymore so you can play the good guy act all you want. Just not interested.
And having a game collection doesn't mean anything. I have lots of sega stuff that i don't particularly like but as a collector i have them for completions sake.
Bollocks mate. Plain and simple
But it is true . Virtual Fighter RPG talk did not start until talk of the DC was very well established and next to no-one knew it started life as a Saturn title, until Shenmue II came out, with that lovely little Easter Egg.
Simple fact is games like Too Human, Omikron started life as PS titles
if someone like you has managed to not only hear about supposedly top secret games in japan but manages to seen them apparently as you hinted then really don't act like SHENMUE was totally top secret back in the nineties. especially among other companies so it wasn't hard to try and rip off and that definatly was the case with JSR. Anyway I'm done with you trolling my topic but i'm sure you like the insecure pap that you are need to get the last word in so fire away.....
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Lemme see before you said this game didn't exist and no you've changed your mind
No I simple want to know the game that beat NCl to it on a console or Hand held system.
All the games you keep mentioning that you accuse sega of copying aren't copys
Every company has copied each other ideas for games over the Years, to make out otherwise is completely silly, and its not just in the Home that SEGA has copied, its in the Arcades too, Wave Runner was not the 1st Jet Ski games and so on
And its a joke you mentioning the west when you can't even accept sega japan wasn't designing games until the early eighties
SEGA Japan were designing games in the 70's I think you find (there's a huge clue in Die Hard Arcade for starters) , but what's that got to do with the West inventing Video games and the Arcades I do not know.
The west gave birth to most of the Gene's we have played over the years, be they sports games, platform games, RPG's , Racers ECT. That's not knocking the DC at all, its a simple matter of fact, becasue they invented Video games and did many of Genre's 1st on consoles like Atari, CBS or the Intelvision
Only two of those games are straight copys and three of them aren't DC originals.
?. It shows SEGA copies, like every other corp
How about you make a lost of DC games that were truly unique and world 1st. There isn't that many on the DC at all imo .
RE was a MP game so i really don't know how you can come to that conclusion and FPS started life on the PCs,try again
What is a MP game ?, is its a Multi Player game, that wasn't RE at all
Resident Evil established that style of gaming on the consoels, but again it was far from the 1st, as Alone in The Dark (yes the West and French again) beating the Japanese to it.
FPS started life on the PCs,try again
Its called establishing a genre on consoles , not true world 1st :evil: . Before Medal Of Honour on the PS, War based FPS weren't popluar at all on the consoles, that all changed with MOH.
Oh i can't make an opinion without an insult. REALLY?
You can, and should do it move often
And having a game collection doesn't mean anything.
Sign
I'm just trying to make you see, that I supported and backed the DC with a hell of lot of money out of my own back pocket . I don't need to be told by the likes of YOU...I didn't like or rate the DC, or I am not a SEGA Fan
The mere fact I loved the DC and still am a SEGA fan are the reason I still keep all the boxes and games, just like with the Saturn, Mega CD and all the main SEGA consoles. While my other old stuff and consoles have long been sold
if someone like you has managed to not only hear about supposedly top secret games in japan but manages to seen them apparently as you hinted then really don't act like SHENMUE was totally top secret back in the nineties
Saturn Shenmue was totally top Secret and none of the Mag's reported the fact through 1994-1997 while it was in Saturn development no magazine at all, not one (and this was at a time before the Internet really took off) . 1998 we started to see the talk of Virtual Fighter RPG and talk of a engine doing over 1.5 million polygons by Yu Suzuki.
In fact even after Shenmue came out, not many knew it started life has a Saturn title, much less that so much of the Shenmue story was developed on the Saturn (right up to Shenmue II)
The QTE whiles most took the piss out of them, they have been copied by countless games these days. But a true Open 3D world started on the PC at the end of the day, with the likes of Elder Scrolls II
and rip off and that definatly was the case with JSR
The likes of Fear Effect started development when Smilebit were developing Sega Rally II on the DC. So even if the Fear Effect team did have some sort of inside SEGA knowledge at the time, They wouldn't be getting the Cel shading look idea from SEGA or Smilebit . but ideas for a Rally game or a Online RTS game
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And there the rest of my Saturn stuff
[youtube:2de72i0o]j27vywSNun0[/youtube:2de72i0o]