SEGAbits Forums
Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: fluffymoochicken on November 06, 2010, 02:30:14 pm
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4G: So what are the cons of using western developers?
KI: First, you can't just leave them alone. Even with technical skills, they often lack adequate ideas and concepts for utilizing those skills. That's exactly why I'm such a good match for them. (laughs) They don't have to be a top-notch development studio. I just want to work with a team that has good potential and a positive work attitude.
http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=141103 (http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=141103)
Yay! ^__^ Glorious Nippon is comin' for our salvation!
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Yay!
Generic western developers need help.
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I was a fan of Midway in the early years of gaming but I don't care for the western 'hollywood game developers' of later years. They and the people that play their crap just need to find their way the fuck out of the hobby. Face it, EA and Activision pump out nothing but shit. Time for dedicated gaming to take this industry back.
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Inafune was basically Capcom's Iizuka. The company can only improve without him.
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Who's still left at Capcom at this point?
The whole Clover Studio gang leaves, and now Inafune....
It seems like on of the only big Japanese studios that's able to hang onto their big name developers is Nintendo. Everybody else is going independent.
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Inafune was basically Capcom's Iizuka. The company can only improve without him.
Maybe he was, but even so, this condescending statement holds a lot of truthiness to it. ;D
It seems like on of the only big Japanese studios that's able to hang onto their big name developers is Nintendo. Everybody else is going independent.
Perhaps some of these long time developers have grown disillusioned with the modern big budget game development process.
They were lucky enough to work in the days when games were developed by small, closely-knit teams that were given a lot of room to be creative. They could make games about bubble-popping dragons, hopping on rainbows, fairyland stories - the diversity of these older games is broader, and you can really tell how much personal love and attention were poured into them.
Today, it's all about managing large teams of over 100 disassociated, specialized people whose creative freedom is always in a stranglehold by their superiors. It's too much of "just a job to do", rather than something you're having fun with.
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It's mostly that I wonder why other big developers aren't taking note of what's going on all around them, and doing more to hold onto these people.
Like if Inafune wanted to have a little development team within Capcom, let him have it. Granted, that's just a rumor, but if that's what it takes, go for it.
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That's because they don't value their developers like gamers would. Inafune said himself that when he sent his letter of resignation, nobody on the board sent him a reply or tried to talk to him about it. They really didn't care.
It's gotten to the point where publishing executives view their developers as cogs that have no real individual worth and that can always be replaced if needed be. It's a McDonaldization (http://http://www.mcdonaldization.com/whatisit.shtml) of what was once a great creative industry, and that's also more or less what Sega Stylista rants about all the time.
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Today, it's all about managing large teams of over 100 disassociated, specialized people whose creative freedom is always in a stranglehold by their superiors. It's too much of "just a job to do", rather than something you're having fun with.
That is not always a bad thing though. Those 100 people could be all great people who know how to make good games. I mean, you yourself said you liked Sonic Unleashed a lot more than the previous games, and Unleashed was the first Sonic game to be designed with that kind of set of people, so I do not think it should always be looked down as a negative.
Every day I get more and more interested in the Indie game scene, but I still love a lot of big games. I am not sure why one type of development ascetic or one country by itself are the only real ways to making great games.
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It's all a bit depressing :(.
It's nice that XBLA, PSN and WiiWare have allowed a lot of those indie games to make it to the consoles though.
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It's all a bit depressing :(.
It's nice that XBLA, PSN and WiiWare have allowed a lot of those indie games to make it to the consoles though.
Yes indeed. A lot of my favorite games this gen were developed for those downloadable services. They came right in the nick of time to save small-time game development. ^___^
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Face it, EA and Activision pump out nothing but shit. Time for dedicated gaming to take this industry back.
Activsion maybe EA ? I 'm sorry I just don't agree. Bad Company II, Dead Space, Rockband III, Fifa 10, Mass Effect II , Rockband, MOH are anything but Shit
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Face it, EA and Activision pump out nothing but shit. Time for dedicated gaming to take this industry back.
Activsion maybe EA ? I 'm sorry I just don't agree. Bad Company II, Dead Space, Rockband III, Fifa 10, Mass Effect II , Rockband, MOH are anything but Shit
Agreed.
Brutal Legend alone puts EA out of the 'shit' category by a huge margin.
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That's because they don't value their developers like gamers would. Inafune said himself that when he sent his letter of resignation, nobody on the board sent him a reply or tried to talk to him about it. They really didn't care.
It's gotten to the point where publishing executives view their developers as cogs that have no real individual worth and that can always be replaced if needed be. It's a McDonaldization (http://http://www.mcdonaldization.com/whatisit.shtml) of what was once a great creative industry, and that's also more or less what Sega Stylista rants about all the time.
That's a ball breaking accurate statement if there ever was one.
Although one thing I don't understand how did Capcom get there? I mean in Sega's case a foreign company (Sammy) took them over when Sega/CSK CEO Isao Okawa passed away.
I knew Capcom was having a tough time, and I understood the budget cuts they were making and I did not support Platinum Games, cause I believed they should have co-operated with the company (I just thought Capcom was being careful and protecting themselves from potential losses and unaudited expenses), but now it is getting ridiculous, who died and made the current management in charge?
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That's a ball breaking accurate statement if there ever was one.
Although one thing I don't understand how did Capcom get there? I mean in Sega's case a foreign company (Sammy) took them over when Sega/CSK CEO Isao Okawa passed away.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion on SEGA, in light of them still supporting money losing games (IE a followup to Valkyria Chronicles) or opting to invest in many more new IPs than any other Japanese publishers.
I knew Capcom was having a tough time, and I understood the budget cuts they were making and I did not support Platinum Games, cause I believed they should have co-operated with the company (I just thought Capcom was being careful and protecting themselves from potential losses and unaudited expenses), but now it is getting ridiculous, who died and made the current management in charge?
You are getting so many things wrong.
Kamiya was treated terribly in his last few years at Capcom, Okami was meant to be a three game title, but the board insisted he make it into one game, what Kamiya wanted in the end was never achieved. Then the problems with Inafune started, Onimusha 3 had Jean Reno in it simply for more "Western" appeal, it bombed so hard that series was left to rest, Kamiya and co could have stayed at Capcom, but he would no longer get the freedom that he wanted.
Frankly I do not see how you believe the group should have stuck at Capcom after they were effectively chucked out for being failures. Capcom were not about to work with them again, might as well start working at the developer who made you want to make games for some of those in that group.
Finally, Inafune began this whole project of having games developed outside of Japan and at first it worked, but then the bubble burst and Bionic Commando, Dark Void and Lost Planet 2 all flopped terribly, it didn't help either that Inafune spoke out against the Capcom management in an interview sometime before his resignation, after they practically gave into his demand and outsourced all their development staff because it was mostly all his idea. Of course the board are not going to care anymore for him after that outburst.
But the fact is, Inafune made many outlandish remarks. The reason Lost Planet 2 failed was it did not have any snow, that if a game does not have a male American lead, it will fail and the most comical of all, he believes himself to be a last samurai styled figure.
The Capcom management no longer cared about him because he was no longer useful and was actually doing damage to the company. Out with the trash as they say.
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I pretty much agree what Aki,
Clover/Platinum games were treated like shit at Capcom. People like Kamiya were taken for granted and his creations were taken away from him more then once. Just look at DMC (And how terrible the reboot looks...)
In the months leading up to Inafune leaving he was doing nothing but shit talking the company and saying how sad he is with Japanese developers. Are you suprised that when he left noone tried to stop him? He was having some kind of break down.
I also think that while the Sammy take over may have been hard on Sega for a few years... In the long run Sammy is going to keep Sega in the money. I dread to see where Sega would be now with out Sammy... After the recession and all sorts.
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Kamiya was treated terribly in his last few years at Capcom, Okami was meant to be a three game title, but the board insisted he make it into one game, what Kamiya wanted in the end was never achieved. Then the problems with Inafune started, Onimusha 3 had Jean Reno in it simply for more "Western" appeal, it bombed so hard that series was left to rest, Kamiya and co could have stayed at Capcom, but he would no longer get the freedom that he wanted.
Okami sold poor that is really what killed the any plans for a sequel, just like Jet Set Radio Future ECT . I don't get your point with Onimusha III it sold over a million copies (hardly Bombed) and even after Capcom went public and said it would be the last inthe series we got a sequel dawn of Dream, which again was a lavish production
Hardly left to rest
Finally, Inafune began this whole project of having games developed outside of Japan and at first it worked, but then the bubble burst and Bionic Commando, Dark Void and Lost Planet 2 all flopped terribly,
Lost Planet II was developed by Capcom Japan, the mistake was not getting Inafune-sand to produce the title, and the single player lacked focus as result, and it became a boss On-Line battle . That said it's not a bad game, features incredible tech and again sold over a million copies, way off Capcom 3 and half million planed sales, but hardly a flop.
The Capcom management no longer cared about him because he was no longer useful and was actually doing damage to the company
That's why they mad him head of Production ?. Its a classic Japanese management way of acting. Moving people up in to rolls they really shouldn't be doing, SEGA have done this with Naka ECT.
Pepople like Naka-san should have stayed on the tech side and programming side, and people like Inafune -san are better producer and working on games, rather that being management material
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Something is seriously wrong with Capcom when most of their heavy weights leave. Not saying I have prove of this, but who is still left at Capcom?
Also Ninja Theory is capable developers, but DMC reboot is looking stupid.
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Something is seriously wrong with Capcom when most of their heavy weights leave. Not saying I have prove of this, but who is still left at Capcom?
Also Ninja Theory is capable developers, but DMC reboot is looking stupid.
People say this about SEGA ( to a point RARE) . There's still plenty of talent in those teams, and it's really time the young guns were allowed to make their mark, given their own Team and production to work on. I don't agree with handling out top IP to western productions teams though. Didn't like it for SEGA and don't like it for Capcom
The sad fact is all of Japan games development is a generation behind the West and its being reflected in games development and Tech . Grand Turismo 5 is a complete joke of a game , even with a massive spend and 5 years , just don't know what is happing to Japanese development at the mo
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Great, what good new IPs has Capcom launched? Dead Rising and Lost Planet? Both by Inafune?
While ex capcom people made Vanquish and Bayonetta, easily better than both those.
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Great, what good new IPs has Capcom launched? Dead Rising and Lost Planet? Both by Inafune?
While ex capcom people made Vanquish and Bayonetta, easily better than both those.
I liked Lost Planet more than Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden II is just miles better than Bay. Letting Shinji Mikami leave was a mistake, but is he at Platinum games now ? Last I read he was working with EA and Grasshoper and setting up his own new Studio.
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... Shinji Mikami isn't with Platinum Games. It was a one project deal. The EA thing is a one project deal and Mikami said he is not working with EA at all, just working with SUDA51. He is the one that set up EA as publisher.
Mikami's studio was already bought by Bethesda Softworks. The same publisher that bought ID Software and now owns the Fallout franchise.
(Just putting it out there, I hated Lost Planet)
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... Shinji Mikami isn't with Platinum Games. It was a one project deal. The EA thing is a one project deal and Mikami said he is not working with EA at all, just working with SUDA51. He is the one that set up EA as publisher.
So what after Vanquished ? for that team . Kind of same deal for the Lost Planet team, both have lost the leader
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Vanquish was always a one project deal and he just directed the project, while Atsushi Inaba produced. If anything will be 'extended' into a franchise, it will be Bayonetta.
Binary Domain is too much like Vanquish to see that one continue. (at least for what we have seen. Its not fast combat, but users might confuse the two titles)
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Okami sold poor that is really what killed the any plans for a sequel, just like Jet Set Radio Future ECT . I don't get your point with Onimusha III it sold over a million copies (hardly Bombed) and even after Capcom went public and said it would be the last inthe series we got a sequel dawn of Dream, which again was a lavish production
Hardly left to rest
Okami was not going to have a sequel, Kamiya was made to put the content of three games in one, it was a trilogy in one game and also the reason it lasted so long.
Onimusha might have sold over a million but it failed to meet any expectations, Lost Planet 2 also sold over a million, but it massively failed to meet expectations.
Lost Planet II was developed by Capcom Japan, the mistake was not getting Inafune-sand to produce the title, and the single player lacked focus as result, and it became a boss On-Line battle . That said it's not a bad game, features incredible tech and again sold over a million copies, way off Capcom 3 and half million planed sales, but hardly a flop.
It did not meet it's target, thereby it is a flop.
SEGA Rally Revo sold over 800,000 units and Alpha Protocol over 700,000, it does not mean neither are a flop, when they miss their targets, they are a flop. Especially one that misses it by OVER a million.
That's why they mad him head of Production ?. Its a classic Japanese management way of acting. Moving people up in to rolls they really shouldn't be doing, SEGA have done this with Naka ECT.
Yes because they actually originally had much admiration for the man. His plan worked, Lost Planet and Dead Rising were success, Capcom was riding high on belief.
Then the harsh reality hit them, games started flopping and he turned on the upper management at Capcom. Just because he started off well does not mean it was going to end well for him, publicly criticizing the higher ups was why no one cared for him in the end.
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Vanquish was always a one project deal and he just directed the project, while Atsushi Inaba produced. If anything will be 'extended' into a franchise, it will be Bayonetta.
Binary Domain is too much like Vanquish to see that one continue. (at least for what we have seen. Its not fast combat, but users might confuse the two titles)
One game deal could be said about almost any game , it all depends on how well the 1st games sells. Lost Planet wasn't produced by one man, but by the likes of Jun Takeut, with Kenji Oguro backing up the game play , people who are still at Capcom, along with the likes of Yoshinori Ono, Hiroyuki Kobayashi.
Like SEGA there's still plenty of Talent , though I don't agree with handling out top IP to western developers
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Onimusha might have sold over a million but it failed to meet any expectations, Lost Planet 2 also sold over a million, but it massively failed to meet expectations.
Any game that sells over a million on 1 platform can be consider a successful, hence why we got a rather lavish sequel to Onimusha III and SONY even give Capcom a nice Gold award for its million sales in Japan alone, where it top the charts selling almost 500,000 in its 1st week; A flop ? Onimusha 3 most certainly wasn't
Kamiya was made to put the content of three games in one, it was a trilogy in one game and also the reason it lasted so long
If any game sells in Big numbers it will get a sequel you can be sure of it. The game sold poor on both the PS2 and the Wii. That is what killed the CLOVER dream the poor sales or Viewtiful Joe, and Okami , it killed the Smilebit dream too sadly.
It did not meet it's target, thereby it is a flop.
So any game that sells a million and half copies is now a Flop ?.That mean most games this generation are flops, including every Platinum game made so far
SEGA Rally Revo sold over 800,000 units and Alpha Protocol over 700,000, it does not mean neither are a flop
I thought SEGA Rally Revo sold over 600,000 copies after 3 years of being on sale . If it sold a million In its 1st year, I put to you the Studio would still be open and we would now be playing thier 2nd game . I have no idea on the sales of AP, only that it had a almighty production spend and was years and years in development, and if you listen to some did not pay back its development budget.
Then the harsh reality hit them, games started flopping and he turned on the upper management at Capcom.
Or more like Inafune-san should never have been made Global head of R&D and development and was put to work on producing games, something he was far better at imo.
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That's a ball breaking accurate statement if there ever was one.
Although one thing I don't understand how did Capcom get there? I mean in Sega's case a foreign company (Sammy) took them over when Sega/CSK CEO Isao Okawa passed away.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion on SEGA, in light of them still supporting money losing games (IE a followup to Valkyria Chronicles) or opting to invest in many more new IPs than any other Japanese publishers.
I was referring to the resignations associated with the mergers, as I am sure we've discussed in the past Mizuguchi wasn't the only one who tendered his resignation.
Kamiya was treated terribly in his last few years at Capcom, Okami was meant to be a three game title, but the board insisted he make it into one game, what Kamiya wanted in the end was never achieved. Then the problems with Inafune started, Onimusha 3 had Jean Reno in it simply for more "Western" appeal, it bombed so hard that series was left to rest, Kamiya and co could have stayed at Capcom, but he would no longer get the freedom that he wanted.
While I am in the dark about Onimusha and Infuane, I think making sure before hand that Okami is a single title affair was a sound decision as the game failed.
Frankly I do not see how you believe the group should have stuck at Capcom after they were effectively chucked out for being failures. Capcom were not about to work with them again, might as well start working at the developer who made you want to make games for some of those in that group.
Same way Suzuki et al have stuck around. Shenmue 2 didn't meet sales target and 3 wasn't greenlit Suzuki didn't leave AM2. He worked on Evolution, OutRun 2, Virtua Cop 3 and made sure the team was ready to continue without him and moved to his MMO studio. He poorly managed the studio and affiliates, dropped the ball figuratively. Same for all others Kodama failed with Altered Beast, Oba failed with Nightshade.
Yet they are all around, and I understand why they are around. They've spent there lives with the company decades upon decades, and I respect there commitment.
Capcom has suffered greatly after the talent left, and how is it the managements fault if there games weren't making enough return to warrant further investment?
Finally, Inafune began this whole project of having games developed outside of Japan
Really? Capcom has always developed games outside Japan Remember Capcom Production Studio# 8. I wasn't aware Infuane started the movement cause after Onimusha he moved on to Dead Rising.
And recent new franchises like Bionic Commando were helmed by Capcom's Ben Judd serving as executive producer, not infuane.
and at first it worked, but then the bubble burst and Bionic Commando, Dark Void and Lost Planet 2 all flopped terribly, it didn't help either that Inafune spoke out against the Capcom management in an interview sometime before his resignation, after they practically gave into his demand and outsourced all their development staff because it was mostly all his idea. Of course the board are not going to care anymore for him after that outburst.
He became more involved after recent failures most notably Bionic Commando, I remember reading an interview where he discussed (I am paraphrasing here) "from now only sequels will be developed with foreign studios and new ips in Japan, Orignal Capcom staff will also be involved to make them feel like true Capcom games" - I read this at Kotaku after Bionic Commando's failure. Earlier this year Kotaku interviewed him again and asked if the western dev will stop, and he said it is a company policy that won't change if he or anyone else says.
But the fact is, Inafune made many outlandish remarks. The reason Lost Planet 2 failed was it did not have any snow, that if a game does not have a male American lead, it will fail and the most comical of all, he believes himself to be a last samurai styled figure.
The Capcom management no longer cared about him because he was no longer useful and was actually doing damage to the company. Out with the trash as they say.
He started bad mouthed after his request for small scale affliated studio had been denied, I wasn't aware he spear headed the western dev focus. Capcom had Production Studio 8 way back and recent western games didn't have Infuane credited until recently.
Anyway thank you for your feedback, it was very insightful.
Edit: please excuse and typo's or grammar mistakes, I didn't have time to proof read this :).
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I noticed that no one replied here, and then I read Team Andromeda's post preceding mine.
Looks like Aki got powned (respectfully :D)