Did the industry die along with Sega? Discuss!

[Aki-at]

Sony is greatly supportive of IP's that didn't sell that well. Infamous, Motorstorm, LittleBigPlanet...

The original Little Big Planet has sold over 4.5 million, the original Motorstorm did over 3.5 million. Even the titles mentioned such as ICO (Over 600,000 sold) Locoroco, Siren etc sell alright considering the budget.

They have been milking it as much as Sonic

I would presume he means Western support, which when you look at Yakuza's sales numbers here, it's a wonder why they even bother to bring the titles here. The sales of niche titles look like Halo compared to Yakuza.

[Nameless 24]

Again that's not really true at all . SONY made a follow up to ICO ( a game that didn't sell great) sequels to the likes of Locorocco , Siren, Motor Toon and plenty of other IP that didn't sell in huge numbers.

Sorry it did get a sequel on the PS2 .

I would never call Shadow of the Collosus a sequel despite being in the same universe. A Spiritual Successor, yes.

Also, you're defending Sony's Japanese Team franchises, which are likely the smaller teams compared to Sony's more Worldwide Studios...who's to say that Siren, Locoroco sell well on the lower margin vs Twisted Metal and Motorstorm? I don't think the Japanese Side gets as much of a budget vs the other teams, so they have to make sequels to existing franchises and occasionally try newer things just to keep that budget flowing. Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.

Is it bad that I only just heard of this game now? Talk about slipping under the carpet. :\

Regarding Infamous and Motorstorm, they sold very well (Motorstorm in the millions), I don't see how they can not be supported given they are likely the middle ground in Sony's profit margins that they did well enough to at least make another one.

I actually retract my statement about Yakuza after the recent announcement, and when you say that SEGA milks the franchise....you mean in Japan...so to a point, yes...they do "milk" it, but it's their "Sonic" for that region, which doesn't concern our side of the world (anymore at least).

[Team Andromeda]

Motorstorm did over 3.5 million. Even the titles mentioned such as ICO (Over 600,000 sold) Locoroco, Siren etc sell alright considering the budget

Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.

Also, you're defending Sony's Japanese Team franchises, which are likely the smaller teams compared to Sony's more Worldwide Studios...who's to say that Siren, Locoroco sell well on the lower margin vs Twisted Metal and Motorstorm

What?. SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and bst funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon

Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.

Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY   and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying

I would never call Shadow of the Collosus a sequel despite being in the same universe

Think like that and Saga is never a sequel to Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Shadown Dancer not a sequel to Shinobi.

[TimmiT]

Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.

Stop stating opinions as facts.

Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY   and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying

Stop getting upset and throwing accusations at others for having different opinions.

Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.

What?. SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and bst funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon

You're saying that Locoroco had the same budget and team size as Motorstorm or Twisted Metal. Yes, Japan Studio is huge. But unlike most American studios, they have more than two teams working there. Most (if not all) of the staff at Evolution worked on one Motorstorm game, while just a small portion of the staff at Japan Studio worked on Locoroco.

[Team Andromeda]

You're saying that Locoroco had the same budget and team size as Motorstorm or Twisted Metal.

I say that GT 5 had a Budget bigger than all those games put together . Try $60 Million dollars and counting .

Stop getting upset and throwing accusations

I don't get upset . I'm just pointing out mistruths, that's all.

[Nameless 24]

Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.

But what are you comparing sales to? You mentioned budget, which exactly what Locoroco and Siren have had too, so yes, they sold well given their budgets too.

What? SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and best funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon

Oh, so God of War and Uncharted didn't have bigger budgets than ICO Team or Japan Studio?

When you mentioned that ICO selling in limited copies, that indicates that the budget wasn't all that big.

Given that Saturn sold much better than in the west, using the Japanese Sales as an example makes it sound like Zwei and PD was a blockbuster hit worldwide. (I love Panzer Dragoon as well, so it's a shame not many mainstream gamers know about it)

Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY   and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying

Think like that and Saga is never a sequel to Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Shadown Dancer not a sequel to Shinobi.

Wha? That's a pretty big accusation when I owned more Sony consoles than SEGA ones (I will admit this as well).

None of those franchises interest me (if you said Uncharted, then yes, that one does), doesn't mean that they are bad....just that their appeal isn't as strong as Nintendo or perhaps Microsoft's franchises (that's also debatable).

Sony have a good network for third party exclusives and perhaps even a good line of their first party franchises, but what I was debating on was whether Sony's franchises are as good a line up as SEGAs...is it a bad thing that I think SEGA has the better line up, especially on a SEGA Site?

May as well call Shadow of the Colossus ICO 2 then. The difference between our comparisons is that SEGAs franchises all have common mechanics, settings and gameplay. ICO plays 100% different to SotC. Does Shadow Dancer play differently to Shinobi or Zwei plays different to Panzer Dragoon? if you wanted a better example of the Panzer Dragoon series, why didn't you mention Saga, which has different gamplay?

Stop stating opinions as facts.

Where exactly did I mention that it's a fact? The term "Let's be honest here", doesn't state that I made it a fact. You can disagree with my term if you wish, but again, Sony's franchises sell less than Nintendo's franchises, and that IS a fact.


I'll add this last thing so I am not accused as Anti-Sony. I have played Uncharted, Motorstorm, WipeOut as well as Medieval, Parappa, the early Crash/Spyro games growing up. I am allowed my opinion to state that despite the games being good, some of Sony's First party line up isn't very strong.

[Team Andromeda]

But what are you comparing sales to? You mentioned budget, which exactly what Locoroco and Siren have had too, so yes, they sold well given their budgets too

Lets gets a few things straight . I wasn't the one talking of budgets and all that . I simply made the point that SONY have plenty of new and original IP and have made sequels to IP that hasn't sold that great . SEGA, SONY and the rest will never make a sequel to a game that sells next to nothing.

Oh, so God of War and Uncharted didn't have bigger budgets than ICO Team or Japan Studio

Uncharted would have cost more given its a PS 3 title . But to put into contest God Of War 3 cost SONY something like 35 million dollars , GT 5 cost SONY 60 million dollars . So SONY Japan also are well supported

When you mentioned that ICO selling in limited copies, that indicates that the budget wasn't all that big.

It would have cost a fair bit to make , but it sold it limited numbers (more so at full price )

Given that Saturn sold much better than in the west, using the Japanese Sales as an example makes it sound like Zwei and PD was a blockbuster hit worldwid

No not at all (and I guess you mean Japan)  Just that the 1st Saturn game sold well over 300,000 copies(hence why a sequel was ordered straight away)  and its sequel sold in similar numbers, even better I think  - I think at one stage it was even out selling Biohazard on the PS in Japan . Now Saturn budgets were nothing like to a PS2 or PS3 game and the main Panzer Dragoon Team was very small and a Team that made both games in under 2 years - That really helps when it comes to a cost of a game . ICO and SOC on the other hand were each in development for 4+ plus year and where development costs were way above that of a Saturn title .

None of those franchises interest me

That's says it all. If in the height of Sega Vs SONY Sony Defence Force members said the likes of Shenmue, JSR, F355 , Space Channel 5 don't interest me and so on, no doubt you would have had enough to say . Just because you or I don't like them, doesn't mean they aren't great games . SONY has plenty of great IP and more to the point it has great current IP- Whats SEGA got to offer the 'console' gamer this generation the world over other than Yakuza or Sonic ? - That is the real issue with SEGA Japan

May as well call Shadow of the Colossus ICO 2 then

Well its more a prequel to ICO

Does Shadow Dancer play differently to Shinobi or Zwei plays different to Panzer Dragoon? if you wanted a better example of the Panzer Dragoon series, why didn't you mention Saga, which has different gamplay

Huh ? I did mention Panzer Dragoon Saga

that SEGAs franchises all have common mechanics, settings and gameplay. ICO plays 100% different to SotC

Pushing it a bit I think aren't we . Castlevaina SOTN plays vastly different to Part IV yet everyone see's it as a sequel . Wonder Boy II and III Ect play vastly different to Part 1 and we all see them as sequels . Toe Jam And Earl 2 plays  and looks completely different from that of Part 1 (yet we all count that as a sequel)

[Trippled]

Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...

[Aki-at]

Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...

They do that with any highly successful console franchise, see also, Phantasy Star, Sakura Taisen and Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Deefy]

Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...

SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.

[Team Andromeda]

SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.

Yep that's the truth

[Trippled]

They do that with any highly successful console franchise, see also, Phantasy Star, Sakura Taisen and Sonic the Hedgehog.

Sonic and Phantasy Star only got that treatment till the mid 90's. Sakura Taisen had a 2 year cycle for games.

I guess I'm just dissapointed with the prospect of AM4+Smilebit from 2003, being the premiere console development team for Sega. The result of just yearly Yakuza games is dissapointing to say the least. I mean in the end I guess I'm just nitpicking, since it IS a good franchise but still. The team should have been like Platinum Games and make a variety of games. Something like Binary Domain should have come way sooner, and way more often.

SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.

Yep that's the truth

I disagree with those sentiments. When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega. Hisao Oguchi took over and it's not like he's some kind of parasite, since he was CEO for 1995-7, and was an actual developer behind many classics.
When Sammy bought them in 04, nothing really changed from the drastic change in direction that went on since 03, with a much bigger focus on the Japanese Arcadesphere, and them dropping heavily on big console projects from Smilebit and AM2.

[Aki-at]

Sonic and Phantasy Star only got that treatment till the mid 90's. Sakura Taisen had a 2 year cycle for games.

So then would you not claim that SEGA died in the 90s instead? (Also Sonic had 5 titles released yearly straight from the beginning)

I guess I'm just dissapointed with the prospect of AM4+Smilebit from 2003, being the premiere console development team for Sega. The result of just yearly Yakuza games is dissapointing to say the least. I mean in the end I guess I'm just nitpicking, since it IS a good franchise but still. The team should have been like Platinum Games and make a variety of games. Something like Binary Domain should have come way sooner, and way more often.

I know what you mean as I would like to see the team expand on other genres and new series but Binary Domain's absolute failure was massive and damning, it was enough for SEGA to completely (Falsely) reconsider their position in the market.

Even though Yakuza is my favourite gaming series, I would have liked to see new IPs, but using Platinum as an example just goes to show the problem. They have only one and seven commercial successes and even that one title was based on an established franchise.

[Deefy]

I disagree with those sentiments. When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega. Hisao Oguchi took over and it's not like he's some kind of parasite, since he was CEO for 1995-7, and was an actual developer behind many classics.

Yeah, the year 2002 and also partly 03 were still great years for SEGA, but this because to the long wave of investments and previous decisions, moreover, in those years, especially the 03, even financially things were at least inverted...a shame 

[Trippled]

So then would you not claim that SEGA died in the 90s instead? (Also Sonic had 5 titles released yearly straight from the beginning)

Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).

And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.