Sony, MS, mainstream gaming and the end of Sega hardware

[Sega Uranus]

Microsoft has lost billions of dollars and has had tons and tons of stock holders give up on them demanding they drop the Xbox name. If that does not force them out, nothing would have. It is not like any of SEGA's games on that platform disappearing would have changed much of anything.

What SEGA should have done is not made Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia, Shenmue, games like that. As it has been brought up here, SEGA would just put far too much money into single games. If you split up the production on those you could make like... 40 ChuChu Rocket type games.

But it does not matter, SEGA was pretty much doomed in the console market once they released the 32X. People lost hope in them when the Saturn failed to impress, and even then, once the time the PlayStation 2 came around the "PlayStation" name was just too strong for SEGA to compete with. I cannot even count how many people I know of that still call the Genesis "The SEGA".

The truth is that the medium has always been mainstream. Games becoming more cinematic or more realistic are not the original concepts or styles dying out, it is just a progression of technology. People left, right and center are saying games like Heavy Rain are an entirely new genre and is not similar to anything conceived when really it is just the evolution of point n click games, as was the same with Shenmue. I hear people saying titles like Halo are ruining the industry, but how could it? If you were to look at the general design of the series really hard, you would find it shares ideas of games to come before it in different genres. I mean, I could name concepts in it similar to platformers, RPGs, fighters, racers, rail shooters, even puzzle games. I am certain if it were created 15 years earlier than it was that it would be closer to Mega Man because it is what technology allowed, that is it.

The opposite is true too. Now there are a flux of "Simple" games coming out all of the time, whether it be for Wii, PC, or downloadable platforms, but people complain more! I do not understand what "Gamers" want anymore! They complain about games being too big, they complain about games being too small, why not just shut up and enjoy what you think is fun?

At the end of the day these are just companies trying to get people to buy their products. They may have employees that dislike others from another company or brand, but really all these "Wars" happen to be are nothing more than looking as to what your competitors do and how they fail or succeed, then putting out more products that will hopefully do better than them. Nothing more, nothing less.

[east of eastside]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4 ... php?page=6

In September of 2000, one year after the North America launch, Sega's American executives came to a realization. Despite initial great sales in North America, Sega lacked the marketing dollars to compete with Sony and Nintendo, and it was witnessing Sony's arrival even before it had arrived, with decreased sales going into the fall season.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/31/busin ... gewanted=1

''Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft have huge war chests and Sega is unable to compete with them at their game,'' said Charles Bellfield, vice president of communications for Sega of America."

Mr. Bellfield said Dreamcast sales did not meet expectations..

money relative to the competition's.. not money to keep the operations going.. Okawa didn't want to commit money to hardware because he saw it as a hopeless money losing proposition against big budget competitors, in contrast to Sega as a software maker which he did gift 600 million to.It's a simple matter of ROI.

http://bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/qaa ... uster.html

BS: When Nakayama was pushed out and when I was pushed out, I think what took place was, Mr. [Isao] Okawa, who then became the chairman of the company -- he was an investment banker from CSK [Holdings Corporation].... I don’t believe he was committed to the hardware. He just believed it should be a software company.

Bitmob: And that was ultimately the Dreamcast’s downfall....

BS: Yeah, the company didn’t put the money into it. The company basically abandoned the system.

Bernie stolar: the company didn't put money into it.. not "the company couldn't get money to put into it."  Why?  Futile money losing proposition versus the competition.

When you consider the strength of the Playstation 2 hype, the cost of marketing a new platform in the North American Market... When you consider that Microsoft has an announced a $500 million marketing program for the launch of Xbox and that Nintendo has a $5 billion war chest and the overall power behind the Playstation brand. Sega does not have the ability to compete against those companies. -Charles Bellfield

conclusion: competition

[east of eastside]

Saying that Sony killed the Dreamcast when it says they couldn't afford it? ..and mismanaged money (Saturn, 32x and SEGA CD). If they had all that money, the DC would have finished off the generation in 2nd. Not first, Sony won that one by a mile, but coming in at second most likely would have forced Microsoft out.

You are talking about a approx $2 billion dollar company versus a $20 billion and $100 billion dollar company at that time.  Even if they had an extra $1 billion back from 32X, Sega CD, and Saturn (not unrelated to PSX's success) they still would not have been able to compete with them in the long run. They couldn't afford it because the competitors were substantially greater.

No, pricing the DC at a lost (which SEGA of Japan was against) was bad

That happened because SOJ put an installed base quota on SOA and they were desperate, the entire reason was to build enough critical mass before the onslaught of PS2.  DC was under the shadow of PS2 hype it's entire life..  


Sony "killed" is misleading.. Sony the greatest causal factor is more accurate.  

Sega would have stayed in the console business if it only had to contend with Nintendo despite their earlier losses, and Saturn would have been a much different story without Playstation.

The truth is that the medium has always been mainstream.

The degree of mainstream awareness and adoption of gaming has changed drastically over the successive generations, from a core niche of dedicated gamers to a broader section of the mass audience.  The demographic changes are reflected in the game designs.

NES to DC was the "games for gamers" paradigm.  Post Halo is mass audience gaming.

Prior to PS2 to the core of gaming was hardcore, now the core of gaming is mainstream, followed by casual as the next largest segment, and the old hardcore the smallest.

There was once a time video games used to make your palms sweat, people have forgotten that today.

[George]

All I see is 'lack of money' to compete. Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for backing me up East.

Also, Sony the 'greatest' casual factor? Are you saying that the first 2 years of PS2's life it was bought up by Moms and Dads? You do know that the system did not get that casual following till 4 years after it came out, the first four-ish years was mostly hardcore. Even Sony's president talks about how you should build a hardcore fanbase first, then go after casual gamers. Going to be honest, I don't see many casual gamers going into a store and buying a 300 dollar console to play Syphon Filter or GTAIII.

 :|

SEGA was unable, lack of money... doesn't sound like "PS2 being a casual console made the DC die."

[Sega Uranus]

NES to DC was the "games for gamers" paradigm.  Post Halo is mass audience gaming.

Are you serious?!? The NES has sold many many many more units than the whole Halo series ever has combined. Not just that, but the NES has literally more shovelware than any console I can even think of. Probably more than the PC has gotten overall.

Halo games (as you keep pointing out and obviously do not know much about) have multiple gameplay modes, multiple techniques to learn, different vehicles, different weapons, different difficulties etc etc. I do not see how this is less of a "Game" than Super Mario Brothers.

While I would not being to think Super Mario Brothers is a terrible game, if I had to choose between that and Halo... There would be no competition. Halo has more content, and extremely larger amount of gameplay value.

Oh btw, Super Mario Brothers sold like... 5 times more than the whole Halo series combined. I guess that means it is way more mainstream and casual...

[Emmett The Crab]

All I see is 'lack of money' to compete. Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for backing me up East.

Also, Sony the 'greatest' casual factor? Are you saying that the first 2 years of PS2's life it was bought up by Moms and Dads? You do know that the system did not get that casual following till 4 years after it came out, the first four-ish years was mostly hardcore. Even Sony's president talks about how you should build a hardcore fanbase first, then go after casual gamers. Going to be honest, I don't see many casual gamers going into a store and buying a 300 dollar console to play Syphon Filter or GTAIII.

 :|

SEGA was unable, lack of money... doesn't sound like "PS2 being a casual console made the DC die."

George, it looks like you wasted some time on that post.  He said "causal factor" not "casual factor".  Those are two completely different words.

[east of eastside]

All I see is 'lack of money' to compete. Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for backing me up East.

Lack of money to compete against competitors of that size and financial strength, not lack of money to stay in the business with a 10 million unit console lead and compete against Gamecube.  That is the distinction I'm getting at.

Also, why is the lack of money totally unrelated for you to PSX dominating Saturn or DC being under the shadow of PS2 since shortly after DC was first announced? Those are real and major factors all stemming from Sony's entrance.

Realize that Okawa had a quota he was willing to support DC if it met, and even with all the radical price drops it didn't meet it.  So, he refused to commit the money.  Why send $500 million down a hole competing against Sony and MS if it's a lost cause?  But he did give $600 million for them to be a software company, so there was money to be used.

It's there if you want to see it.

George, it looks like you wasted some time on that post.  He said "causal factor" not "casual factor".  Those are two completely different words.

Thanks, Emmett.  It's okay, I do use and attack "casual" a lot.

[east of eastside]

NES to DC was the "games for gamers" paradigm.  Post Halo is mass audience gaming.

Are you serious?!?

It's right there in the quotes if you want to see it:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.off

The Dreamcast was arguably the first casualty of a major shift in the gaming industry, one with even greater scope than the '90s-era transition from bitmaps to polygons. When the Dreamcast died, so too did the concept of videogames as the exclusive province of the hardcore.[/u]

At the end of the 90's there was a transition shift in gaming from hardcore to core mainstream.

http://www.destructoid.com/sony-we-brok ... 6032.phtml

"The most successful console is still the PS2 and it's still going strong," claims Hirai, comparing a console released nine years ago to a console released three years ago. "I think that's the console that really broke the barrier from videogames being just for videogamers into more of a mass market on a global basis. Nintendo's obviously done a great job in following that mass acceptance."

Kaz Hirai saying the samething..

Trying to find the article that says 2000 is the decade of mainstream gaming.

Not sure how old you guys are and how well you remember the earlier eras.. that might be a factor.

When I was 20 and in college 15 years ago in the 16bit era, almost nobody on campus was gaming.. Now it is almost nobody is not gaming.

[Emmett The Crab]

East of Eastside, you are the same age as me.  My first console was a Sears-branded Atari 2600.  

It seems to me that the real difference is that adults now play video games, where our parents didn't.  That's more because we grew up playing them, and the market has changed because of us Gen-X, Y people.  It's the same reason we have to sit through GI-Joe and Transformers movies.  Adult, 20+ males now play video games, where our parents may have hauled out Pong at a party or something when they were in college.

To draw this out further, maybe the Dreamcast was aimed at teenagers where the PS2 and the XBOX was aimed at the entire household, with the built-in DVD player.  Still, I never really thought it was fair that Sega blazed trails, and the other companies always waited to see what SEGA did before their consoles came out on the market.  Sega had the first 16-bit system, and while it may have been misguided, SEGA tried to take care of its Genesis user-base by extending its life with the 32X and SEGA CD, rather than ditching it and starting something new right away.  

I'm rambling, so I'll stop now.  These were my thoughts growing up with SEGA's consoles.

[Sega Uranus]

I think Emmett is a good example for this.

You see, calling something "Casual" and something "Hardcore" is silly, especially when you (Eastside), are pretty much just making up in your mind what fits and what does not.

Like, would you consider Emmett a hardcore gamer? Well, I certainly do. But did you know that one of if not his most played games on the Xbox 360 is Uno? Yeah, the card game. Does that make him any less hardcore than you?

You never gave a guideline as to what makes up "hardcore gamers games" and "jocks games". You never responded to any of my posts I mentioned specifically to you about Halo and to why they are great games, especially for gamers, so I just assume you cannot think of a response.

Actually, just drop those terms, they are stupid. Tell people you like games and what about them appeals to you instead. Every time you say "Casual" you do it in the way that is as negative as possible in which you literally blame people for ruining the whole damn industry. That is like me saying Aki is a more hardcore member of SEGAbits than Sharky and that he is ruining the forums because he does not post as much.

[MadeManG74]

I'm telling you guys, Space Wars was the last 'game for gamers'. Everything after that was just mainstream corporate casual rubbish dumbed down to appeal to the mass market.

[east of eastside]

I'm telling you guys, Space Wars was the last 'game for gamers'. Everything after that was just mainstream corporate casual rubbish dumbed down to appeal to the mass market.

I'm proud of you, brother.  you're getting there!   :mrgreen:

friends,  I just was at the boards of old school Sega fans that I was posting with a decade ago..

I found this gem that I share with you:

http://opa-ages.com/forums/topic/41862- ... -for-2012/

We can dream can we? Sega flushing Microsoft and all the Bald Space Marine shit that they stunk up the market with down back to the Personal Cesspool where they belong, is a long hope of mine.

See, now that is oldschool.  The other day I caught a post where one of them said that space marines were for 12 year olds that hadn't dropped their ball yet!

The old school Sega fans hated Sony as a pledge of faith.  Microsoft was just a lesser of two evils.

Gotta love the old school Sega fan--SEGA!

[east of eastside]

East of Eastside, you are the same age as me.  My first console was a Sears-branded Atari 2600.  

Emmet, that is cool. Glad to know a fellow old schooler.  I certainly played 2600 but NES was actually the first console I owned.

It seems to me that the real difference is that adults now play video games, where our parents didn't.  That's more because we grew up playing them, and the market has changed because of us Gen-X, Y people.  It's the same reason we have to sit through GI-Joe and Transformers movies.  Adult, 20+ males now play video games, where our parents may have hauled out Pong at a party or something when they were in college.

Well for me, the demographics are wider even at the same age.. The old gaming was a geek and nerd niche subculture.  Now it is widely mainstream and not stigmatized as nerdy.

GI Joe movie was terrible.  Trans 2 was decent.

To draw this out further, maybe the Dreamcast was aimed at teenagers where the PS2 and the XBOX was aimed at the entire household, with the built-in DVD player.

DC = gamer's game console

(Uranus and MadeMan can look at my supporting quotes even though they think I'm insane)

PS2 and Xbox = mainstream

[east of eastside]

I think Emmett is a good example for this.

You see, calling something "Casual" and something "Hardcore" is silly, especially when you (Eastside), are pretty much just making up in your mind what fits and what does not.

Well, Emmet kind of cleared up the "causal vs casual" deal if that's what you are talking about.

If you want to know what I'm talking about it is the old school "hardcore gamer" that belonged to the 80's and 90's geek and nerd gaming niche subculture.  A hardcore game is any game made for that gamer.  A core mainstream game (like Halo) is made for the new generation of core mainstream gamers.

Like, would you consider Emmett a hardcore gamer? Well, I certainly do. But did you know that one of if not his most played games on the Xbox 360 is Uno? Yeah, the card game. Does that make him any less hardcore than you?

I don't really worry if anyone is less or more hardcore than me.  I don't assign a social value to it, I'm only speaking to my personal preference in gaming.

You never gave a guideline as to what makes up "hardcore gamers games" and "jocks games". You never responded to any of my posts I mentioned specifically to you about Halo and to why they are great games, especially for gamers, so I just assume you cannot think of a response.

Did you see the Dewey gamer classification definitions I listed in the the thread with TA?  That is what I am referring to.  We can talk about this some more..

Actually, just drop those terms, they are stupid. Tell people you like games and what about them appeals to you instead. Every time you say "Casual" you do it in the way that is as negative as possible in which you literally blame people for ruining the whole damn industry. That is like me saying Aki is a more hardcore member of SEGAbits than Sharky and that he is ruining the forums because he does not post as much.

I will drop the labels.. I don't care about them.. They are only descriptors.. Like I said, I said "causal" not "casual".  I don't think I used "casual" in this thread did I?

Actually, I was part of the hardcore Sega community 10 years ago.  A lot of people here are not Sega fans in the old school sense.. Not at all. Back then all Sega fans hated, absolutely hated Sony.  Most of those old school Sega fans think Sega is crap today.

[MadeManG74]

I'm telling you guys, Space Wars was the last 'game for gamers'. Everything after that was just mainstream corporate casual rubbish dumbed down to appeal to the mass market.

I'm proud of you, brother.  you're getting there!   :mrgreen:

Damn right, real games should require punch-cards, not these un-niche, soulless 'Compact Discs' that the kids are raving about.

I will drop the labels.. I don't care about them.. They are only descriptors.. Like I said, I said "causal" not "casual". I don't think I used "casual" in this thread did I?

Actually, I was part of the hardcore Sega community 10 years ago. A lot of people here are not Sega fans in the old school sense.. Not at all. Back then all Sega fans hated, absolutely hated Sony. Most of those old school Sega fans think Sega is crap today.

Okay, let me just be serious again for a moment. I was a Hardcore Sega fan since I was 4 years old playing Master System and Mega Drive games, and talking it up as school. I used to hate Nintendo, then hate Sony as well.

Looking back though, I think that was more down to me being a kid rather than any mark of a true fan. Now I'm still a hardcore sega lover, but I'm not so short-sighted to ignore great games made by competitors. I wish I had been more open minded back in the day and maybe even bought an N64 to complement my Saturn or something. Obviously I still loved the Saturn best, but there were some brilliant games on N64 and PlayStation too.

I would argue that MOST people on this site are also hardcore, long time Sega fans. At a point though, you just realise that hating the competition so unconditionally isn't really a good thing.