Author Topic: The right to keep and bear arms  (Read 9725 times)

Offline Toggi3

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2010, 04:45:51 am »
Quote from: "Emmett The Crab"
Statistically you are more likely to get shot with your own gun in a home defense situation then to actually defend yourself.  No one likes to think of themselves in terms of a statistic like that, but you will never know if you can kill a person until you are put in the position where you have to.
I sincerely hope that moment never arrives, but again, have and not need, or need and not have?  If I am given the option to have, I'm taking it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Emmett The Crab

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2010, 07:04:56 pm »
I hope so too.  

Anyway, it's a complicated issue, and at this point in the life of our country, gun control is like prohibition.  It makes for interesting philosophical discussion, but guns will never be outlawed.  Hopefully more carefully regulated at least.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Autosaver

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2010, 08:10:11 pm »
I feel very unsafe when a group of people carry guns.

Its very easy to slip out that gun and start shooting. If no one has a gun, it can be very easy to tell when an attacker is coming. (He.. has a gun)

I have no problem owning guns at home, or putting guns in a safe place for business owners to pull out if they are being robbed. The only problem I have is when you carry one out in pubic. All you do is scare the snot out of everyone! You might say police officers carry guns, but they are police officers. You feel extremely safe around them.

Edit
I've seen some comments about removing guns would just lead criminals to using other weapons such as knives. Ugh.. trying to rob a bank using a knife? Try again
A knife isn't as lethal as a gun, a knife wound on a victim could easily be stitched up. You probably could run away if you get attacked. With a gun? Shot and you're down. Don't try to run because unfortunately, a gun has a long range distance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline MadeManG74

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2010, 08:40:31 pm »
Quote from: "Autosaver"
Edit
I've seen some comments about removing guns would just lead criminals to using other weapons such as knives. Ugh.. trying to rob a bank using a knife? Try again
A knife isn't as lethal as a gun, a knife wound on a victim could easily be stitched up. You probably could run away if you get attacked. With a gun? Shot and you're down. Don't try to run because unfortunately, a gun has a long range distance.

I think you are underestimating how much of a problem knife-related crimes can be. Sure they aren't quite as dangerous as a gun, but if you get stabbed you can't just be 'easily stiched up'. Especially if you get stabbed in a vital area.

You are also missing the point a little with regards to gun control. When you commit a crime with a gun, it's very likely the gun is illegal anyway, so 'outlawing' guns won't stop people robbing banks with them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Toggi3

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2010, 11:10:36 pm »
What it comes down to is social philosophy.  There are groups of people or countries that believe the common man is too dangerous to be in control of him/herself, that police and government in control of as much as possible is better because they are smarter or more experienced and know what is best for everyone.

Quote from: "Autosaver"
I have no problem owning guns at home, or putting guns in a safe place for business owners to pull out if they are being robbed. The only problem I have is when you carry one out in pubic. All you do is scare the snot out of everyone! You might say police officers carry guns, but they are police officers. You feel extremely safe around them.

Police do own guns and openly carry them everywhere they go, they shoot them in dangerous situations when they are necessary, they restrain and arrest people, but its not because they are police that they get to do this.  The policeman's core mission is "To protect and serve", they are not 'To enforce the law upon the public and punish', however often the latter falls in line with the former and however police work in actual practice is irrelevant (at least in the scope of this discussion).  But police are servants of the people paid for by the people to make them safe to do the things most people have trouble with or dont want to endanger their lives with, but still need to be done.

I dont think its healthy to have a society that fears weapons simply being presented openly on a holster, nor is it healthy to have an inherent fear of a person you havent determined is hostile, because it feeds into an attitude of allowing the government and the police to run things for the people and treating the common man as criminal.  We are pretty close to that in some respects, but there are nations that have it worse that way.

Quote from: "Autosaver"
I feel very unsafe when a group of people carry guns.

Its very easy to slip out that gun and start shooting. If no one has a gun, it can be very easy to tell when an attacker is coming. (He.. has a gun)

Would you really fear me, for openly carrying on my hip going about my daily routine?  I fear the person who wears baggy clothing hooded to conceal his face, and tucks his glock inside his pants concealed illegally without a permit, more than I fear the one who openly carries.  I try to openly carry as much as I can, but theres a social stigma attached to it and more trouble than it is worth sometimes to me.  If anyone means you harm, trust me, they wont be carrying openly.

Each ounce of control the police and government have that the average citizen does not is one step closer towards fascism.  An ammusing irony about my position regarding citizen carry is I totally own an eastern european commie gun.  Going for a Yugoslavian M57 or Romanian TT-33 Tokarev next lol.

[youtube:3e8df2v5]q_iy7YLLLiI[/youtube:3e8df2v5]

Quote from: "Autosaver"
I've seen some comments about removing guns would just lead criminals to using other weapons such as knives. Ugh.. trying to rob a bank using a knife? Try again
A knife isn't as lethal as a gun, a knife wound on a victim could easily be stitched up. You probably could run away if you get attacked. With a gun? Shot and you're down. Don't try to run because unfortunately, a gun has a long range distance.

Joe is a criminal.
Hank is a baker.

Joe and Hank both have guns.
Joe does not follow the law.
Hank follows the law.

Day 1:
Joe shoots someone.
Hank bakes a cake.

Day 2:
Joe shoots someone.
Hank makes some bagels.

Day 3:
Joe shoots someone.
Hank makes pie crusts.

Day 4:
The government bans guns.
Joe does not follow the law.
Hank follows the law.

Day 5:
Joe shoots someone.
Hank, defenseless, is shot.

The above is not mine, I dont know who wrote it.  But its an amazing piece of wisdom I think.

I also remind you, planes have been hijacked with boxcutters.  I am pretty sure if you took a hostage and held the tip of a butter knife up to their trachea threatening to stab it the bank teller will fill the money bags.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Happy Cat

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2010, 01:51:52 am »
In Minnesota the law for guns is conceal and carry. Basically means if you are carrying a gun on you that you have to keep it hidden. It also seems like almost every building I go to here in Minneapolis bans guns. So I don't see what use it is carrying one around. Especially if you are stuck taking public transit and have nowhere to store your gun when you are in a building that bans them.

I don't mind other people who carry guns. I Just wouldn't want to carry one myself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Emmett The Crab

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2010, 03:19:36 am »
I don't really think that's wisdom at all.  It's fear-mongering.

I'm sure Joe would shoot a different person every day of the week.  How about if guns remain legal, Joe takes Hank's gun and shoots him with it.

Or Hank comes home early one dayand fins his wife cheating on him, so he shoots his wife, the man, and himself.

Maybe hank's 7 year old finds the gun and accidentally kills his friend with it, while just trying to show it off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Toggi3

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2010, 08:04:45 am »
in the 5th sentence of that bit of wisdom we assume Hank is a responsible, law abiding person.

Hank follows the law, he wouldnt do any of that and his gun wouldn't just be laying around.  Joe on the other hand does what he does all he wants whether the government tells him to turn in his weapon or not. ;)

Is the common person responsible more than irresponsible or not?  Can we be trusted to exercise judgement most of the time or are we really finicky emotional beings with not enough reason to be trusted with any degree of power?

Why are police and the government better inherently than Hank, being themselves subject to any shortcomings or lapses of judgement as the common man?  And could they possibly defend Hank in this scenario?  I don't think they can adequately defend Hank no matter what they do.

Just answer me this, are most people in your eyes more like my Hank, or are they more like your Hank?

and if what I say is fear mongering, its merely the flip side of what gun control activists push.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Emmett The Crab

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2010, 02:18:09 pm »
I meant that little Joe/Hank thing is fear-mongering, not what you say is fear-mongering.  Your arguments are well thought-out.  

More people are like Hank, but there are plenty of law-abiding citizens that go temporarily insane, or might have rage issues.  Have you ever day-dreamed about having guns mounted on the front of your car, like in Full-Auto? I have.  I guess the point is that a gun is so easy and so quick to use, it takes little pre-meditation or planning to kill a person.  A gun has one function, killing or disabling people.  

I would say that police and government are trained to deal with dangerous situations, and are less likely to have their weapons in the reach of children.  Still, of course they can abuse them like anyone else.

I don't trust governments with nuclear weapons, but that doesn't mean I think I should have one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Sega Uranus

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2011, 03:17:24 pm »
Quote from: "MadeManG74"
Quote from: "Emmett The Crab"
Statistically you are more likely to get shot with your own gun in a home defense situation then to actually defend yourself.  No one likes to think of themselves in terms of a statistic like that, but you will never know if you can kill a person until you are put in the position where you have to.

This is my main concern as well. While Toggi3 makes some very good points, I find it odd that you feel the need to carry a gun at all times. I live in what is considered a bad neighborhood (we've had a drug dealer arrested in our back-yard once, 'turf war' arguments at the end of the street, and a house was molotov'd last year in our street too), but even so, I've never felt a strong desire to be armed, and never really felt that I would want to keep guns in my house. As Emmet said, I feel that they would more likely be used against me in some way than allowing me to genuinely defend myself (not to mention that having weapons seems like it would cause things to escalate in violence sometimes).

I do agree though that if the right restrictions are in place, then legal gun owners pose very little threat as they must be law abiding and very well educated in gun safety and maintenance.

Yikes! I never knew you had it so rough. My entire concept of your homelife being exactly like Taz-Mania just fell apart.

[youtube:axfvwr78]GmTaqOVGN74[/youtube:axfvwr78]

Joking aside, I think your family pretty much proves that people who live in those situations are not destined to become the scum of the world, which is what a large majority of the world today believes sadly.

Quote from: "Emmett The Crab"
More people are like Hank, but there are plenty of law-abiding citizens that go temporarily insane, or might have rage issues.

This is rarer than you expect, but it is my number one worry of people who own guns. It is simply too easy to quickly kill someone in this case, which is why I believe it should be mandatory for all firearms to be locked up in a safe.

Quote from: "Emmett The Crab"
I would say that police and government are trained to deal with dangerous situations, and are less likely to have their weapons in the reach of children.  Still, of course they can abuse them like anyone else.

I don't trust governments with nuclear weapons, but that doesn't mean I think I should have one.

I could not agree with this more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline MadeManG74

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Re: The right to keep and bear arms
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2011, 01:03:07 am »
Quote from: "Sega Uranus"
Yikes! I never knew you had it so rough. My entire concept of your homelife being exactly like Taz-Mania just fell apart.

Joking aside, I think your family pretty much proves that people who live in those situations are not destined to become the scum of the world, which is what a large majority of the world today believes sadly.

It's really not as bad or exciting as it sounds, but it has it's share of excitement.

Oh I just thought of another one; some guy got pulled out of his car and then got shot several times in the arms and legs in the street behind my house.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »