Author Topic: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article  (Read 47503 times)

Offline OriginalName

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2013, 03:53:36 am »
You make a great point by demystifying the language I used -- admittedly, it's difficult not to make things seem too starry-eyed when you're talking about a childhood favorite. Still, although every company is after a profit, I don't think it's completely naive to take notice of the general mentality that the company seems to embody in their business. You can go too far in this and become a bleary-eyed fanboy, and Sega does have plenty of moments that don't really inspire the kind of "SEGA, SEGA, RAH-RAH-RAH!" sentiment I poured on in my last post. You're right, the "working class hero" archetype could become a bit much...

But! If I lay out exhibit A: Segagaga, exhibit B: Rez, exhibit C: Cooperation with Kenji Eno on Real Sound: Regret of the Wind, I think that we see a company which tried to create a sustainable business around something so much more human and artistic than anything coming from the Sony camp (especially at that time) that there's almost no comparing them in this regard whatsoever. The honest, uncontrived self-aware and conversational nature of Segagaga is still practically unparalleled in its approach of pulling all the corporate veneer off the company that made it and showing you the folks at Sega for who they really were. There are two types of companies: those that use creativity to promote their business, and those that use business to promote their creativity -- the former does NOT make a game like "Rez". Even a passing interest in something so unmarketable and borderline games-as-charity as Real Sound puts a company under a unique classification in my eyes. They were a company that were so blow-your-brains-out amazing on an artistic level that one can't help but think it was part of the reason their business sense was so unbelievably broken -- I can't help but find something admirable and human about that. I mean, you look at the mentality, quotes, and stories about the businessman whose money backed them almost entirely, Isao Okawa, an eccentric multi-millionaire, and you realize that he just plain "loved/believed in/however you want to phrase it" the company and did everything in his power (and his wallet) to keep them going even when it made no business sense whatsoever to do so, and forgave their debts to him just because he... I don't know, because there was a place in his heart for Sega, I guess. It's things like this that make me see Sega as having been very much unique from the average company.

http://wiki.igda.org/Memorials/Isao_Okawa

Anyway, I do understand what you're saying, and you bring up some good points about some of Sony's better characteristics (I'd had no idea about Net Yaroze, for instance), and you're absolutely right in pointing out that Sega (and Nintendo's) awkward hardware and strategies did give Sony the perfect opportunity to make a name for themselves in video games. However, I don't see how logical business sense and vertically-integrated hardware production capabilities equates to anything I'd consider consequential on an artistic level, or "a soul". Actually, although I'm entirely to blame for their use in this conversation thus far, let's move away from words like "soul" or "passion" -- they make it too difficult to parse through this already subjective matter objectively.

As Randroid touched on as well, I have a similarly different interpretation than yours regarding the exclusives coming as a result of their superior product rather than just plain having a ton of money to throw around. Sure, the difficult Saturn architecture didn't help and you raise a valid point there, but you can still find articles on Sony out-bidding Sega for exclusive rights to previously multi-platform titles in the archives of old guard video gaming news sites to this day.

In any event, although I just banned "soul" from my vocabulary, I should clarify that when I said "soulless" I didn't mean it to mean "evil", so much as just that I can't find anything that I could identify as anything so lofty as a "soul" in the company. It's just that a company made up of (in my opinion) the most creative, forward-thinking, and damn loveable game artists trying to be marketed and directed by the batshit-craziest risk-taking, most inferiority complex-ridden, utterly incomprehensible salarymen seems capable of making me speak in sparkly-eyed words like "soul" because that's so much more relatable and human and interesting. Sony, sure they're not "evil", but they are business-driven to the point that I don't find them relatable or defensible in terms of their contribution to the industry as an artistic medium whatsoever. They've been great for the business and popularity of games, for certain, but despite their minor creative contributions and periodic associations with true artists in the field, it has not ultimately served those things in and of themselves -- they have absolutely not created a fertile environment for off-the-wall creativity in games.

Business just has some really unfortunate side-effects. Sure, PlayStation as a brand is far from all bad, but overall it's a great loss for the creative side of the industry that Sony and Microsoft's business practices and expectations have lead industry standards rather than one which promotes competitive co-existence with smaller upstart companies. Sure, Sega was a business overall, but I didn't see Sega of America rushing to snuff out NEC/Hudson when the Turbo was failing to take hold in the market like Sony did with the Dreamcast. I mean honestly, their behavior during that time is still utterly baffling to me -- I mean, yes, I know they're a business, but WHY go through all that effort to pulverize a complete non-threat of a company like that when they're after a niche market you don't cater to in the first place? Sure, "business is business" is the mantra and people follow it, but let's just set precedents aside for a moment and look at that situation -- on a logical, rational level was that not just greedy as fuck? And to do that to a company that you had worked with five years before, no less? That's exactly what I'm talking about -- the people making the decisions probably didn't even know about the ImageSoft projects to begin with -- they're too massive and creatively placeless to keep up with things like that, and that's why I don't trust a company that gargantuan and scatter-brained in a creative field. No stream of consciousness whatsoever.

Haha, clearly the main issue for me is that I am NOT a businessman.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 04:42:25 am by OriginalName »

Offline OriginalName

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2013, 04:46:22 am »
Oh... oh my... I've done that "gargantuan post" thing again.  :-[

Offline ROJM

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2013, 09:42:26 am »


The 3DO was released a few days shy of one year after the SEGA CD in North America. Taking into consideration that SEGA CD wasn't exactly flying off store shelves here, I question just how well it had established itself. I realize the 3DO was meant to compete with next generation hardware, but the Saturn was little more than a year away from it's Japanese launch, making its direct competition the Super Nintendo and SEGA Genesis/SEGA CD. Their TV adverts strengthens that point, I feel....


The Sega CD was established by the time the 3DO came along, Sega had a big brand name at that point that actually mattered to the target audience and nearly everyone was excited by the prospect of the new add on and the type of games it could bring due to Sega being a over popular brand name that couldn't do anything wrong. And sales wise the SCD is still the most successful CD ROM add on console system to be released. If it meant nothing then Nintendo wouldn't have wasted all those millions trying to compete with it with their own version which they ended up abandoning. When you have several titles selling over 100 000 copies, third parties jumping on the band wagon trying to get a developer license for the system and the fact that the system was covered in several mainstream news reports, i'd hardly say that the MCD was a failure.

Quote

Still, that's not really the point of my original statement. The point was that SEGA CD wasn't the only piece of hardware capable of providing FMV.

But it was the system that finally made it popular and of course i'm well aware how debatable FMV was popular. But at least two FMV MCD games reached the 100 000 mark so obviously people didn't mind buying them. The systems around the time was capable of doing better FMV than the SCD but that's a moot argument. The master System was a better 8 bit games system but it didn't have the brand name of nintendo(or the illegal exclusive third party contracts) to sell it to the public. The NEC handheld system smoked the pants off both game gear and Gameboy yet it didn't have the brand name to help it sell to the public who only cared about Nintendo and later on sega.

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So, because SEGA acted with premeditation, that somehow makes it less of a financial decision? By my estimation, it doesn't. Especially since the SEGA CD fell short in some respects. Sure, the audio is CD quality and it can produce scaling and rotation effects, yet they didn't even bother to expand its color palette beyond 64 colors? Here it's capable of full-motion video, though it looks muddy and dithered? Many games in North America were FMV/QTE games, or Genesis ports, with few titles that truly utilized the format.


That's a silly statement. Its like saying that Sega built the Dreamcast, saturn and megadrive for artistic reasons when we all know its motivated by money after all sega is a business. But you are trying to imply that the MCD was an afterthought and that they made a cynical attempt to cash in. Against what? The SNES, when that was a was years away? The PC engine CD rom? Probably but that was only successful in japan and the megadrive had to be succesful first before the MCD or it wouldn't mean squat. It was obviously part of the conception to have a CD-ROM in place for the megadrive.

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Okay, my point was that, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." Sony may have taken a page or two out of SEGA's playbook, but didn't SEGA do the same thing when they developed Alex Kidd? He wasn't meant to be the SEGA equivalent of Mario?

Page or two? They stole the whole damn thing. They pratically did two things taken from the old masters. One, they stole the sega method of marketing and presenting the type of games for a product but they did it less edgier and second they used nintendo's underhanded tactics to penalize their opponents. Remember the NIGHTS PSX advert with the flying PSX? Sony sued Sega and sega had to drop it. Sega couldn't operate on the same level as Sony because Sony had the big bucks. Sony could screw sega's sales price plans with the shop keepers because they could afford to and Sega couldn't reply back in the way they knew how because Sony kept suing them. Which was part of the reason the sega scream adverts were dropped altogether during the saturn era. As for ALEX KIDD, if the character looked like a younger mario i'd agree with you but it wasn't and many of the games doesn't play like mario either. Crash Bandicoot was  another furry animal with an attitude who could spin real fast(which they stole off Sega's licensed TAZMANIA game)fighting off knockoff robotnik style enemies.
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Throwaway titles? You mean games that sold millions and spawned long lasting franchises that gamers continue to support to this day? Also, Tomb Raider was first released on Saturn, yet the PlayStation version outsold it. Did Sony buy that result too? Regardless, I don't see how Sony buying its way into the industry makes it heartless. They gave us some hardware that was easily accessible to programmers and affordable for consumers. If they made worthless crap, gamers wouldn't have bought it....

Missing the point. ALIENS COLONIAL MARINES sold millions too but that's hardly a quality title as many have pointed out. Like that title many of the PSX games had a cynical approch to them, they weren't artistic they were mostly demographic targetted nonsense titles made to get your buck. BTW,
 Is Toshiden still around today? Is demolition derby? Is wipeout? Two of those titles I mentioned outsold VIRTUA FIGHTER and DAYTONA USA, the games they basically were ripping sega off but who is still around and still respected? You haven't given me examples of games that originated on the PSX that are either still around or people would know of from the top of their head. the fact that you failed to name them and tried to use Tombraider which isn't a PSX originated title proves my point. It matters not who outsold what because that was never part of what i said in the first place.



Quote
Sony may not be a true gaming company in the strictest sense. They're a hardware manufacturer more than anything. I won't deny that. However, I don't feel that makes them soulless. That's all I'm saying.

Really? Sega and nintendo and game companies before them use to make consoles that actually lasted. How many PSX do you know has lasted longer than 20 years let alone five? Sony brought in their abhorrent edict of hardware not lasting longer than a bloody month, which is why the PSX enjoyed so many sales because people kept buying new ones to replace the older ones. And the reason for that is was due to the market being over dominated by consumers who weren't avid gamers. I remeber that period of gaming history and it was goddamn awful. Most of the real gamers either retreated to the PC or arcades or many just stopped playing altogether and in their place were idiots who believed everything Sony spelt out. Sony made gaming mainstream, sony made it cool for adults sony did this sony did that. All Sony did was jump on the bandwagon at the right time and took the rewards that sega and even nintendo had previously built to the point that the market was ready to explode with more consumers. Of course sega and nintendo missed the boat on this because of their incompetence but Sony made sure that their new market was going to be soley theirs. Because of this and other things i mentioned as well as a few others, that's what make Sony soulless.

Offline ROJM

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2013, 09:50:50 am »
You make a great point by demystifying the language I used -- admittedly, it's difficult not to make things seem too starry-eyed when you're talking about a childhood favorite. Still, although every company is after a profit, I don't think it's completely naive to take notice of the general mentality that the company seems to embody in their business. You can go too far in this and become a bleary-eyed fanboy, and Sega does have plenty of moments that don't really inspire the kind of "SEGA, SEGA, RAH-RAH-RAH!" sentiment I poured on in my last post. You're right, the "working class hero" archetype could become a bit much...

But! If I lay out exhibit A: Segagaga, exhibit B: Rez, exhibit C: Cooperation with Kenji Eno on Real Sound: Regret of the Wind, I think that we see a company which tried to create a sustainable business around something so much more human and artistic than anything coming from the Sony camp (especially at that time) that there's almost no comparing them in this regard whatsoever. The honest, uncontrived self-aware and conversational nature of Segagaga is still practically unparalleled in its approach of pulling all the corporate veneer off the company that made it and showing you the folks at Sega for who they really were. There are two types of companies: those that use creativity to promote their business, and those that use business to promote their creativity -- the former does NOT make a game like "Rez". Even a passing interest in something so unmarketable and borderline games-as-charity as Real Sound puts a company under a unique classification in my eyes. They were a company that were so blow-your-brains-out amazing on an artistic level that one can't help but think it was part of the reason their business sense was so unbelievably broken -- I can't help but find something admirable and human about that. I mean, you look at the mentality, quotes, and stories about the businessman whose money backed them almost entirely, Isao Okawa, an eccentric multi-millionaire, and you realize that he just plain "loved/believed in/however you want to phrase it" the company and did everything in his power (and his wallet) to keep them going even when it made no business sense whatsoever to do so, and forgave their debts to him just because he... I don't know, because there was a place in his heart for Sega, I guess. It's things like this that make me see Sega as having been very much unique from the average company.

http://wiki.igda.org/Memorials/Isao_Okawa

Anyway, I do understand what you're saying, and you bring up some good points about some of Sony's better characteristics (I'd had no idea about Net Yaroze, for instance), and you're absolutely right in pointing out that Sega (and Nintendo's) awkward hardware and strategies did give Sony the perfect opportunity to make a name for themselves in video games. However, I don't see how logical business sense and vertically-integrated hardware production capabilities equates to anything I'd consider consequential on an artistic level, or "a soul". Actually, although I'm entirely to blame for their use in this conversation thus far, let's move away from words like "soul" or "passion" -- they make it too difficult to parse through this already subjective matter objectively.

As Randroid touched on as well, I have a similarly different interpretation than yours regarding the exclusives coming as a result of their superior product rather than just plain having a ton of money to throw around. Sure, the difficult Saturn architecture didn't help and you raise a valid point there, but you can still find articles on Sony out-bidding Sega for exclusive rights to previously multi-platform titles in the archives of old guard video gaming news sites to this day.

In any event, although I just banned "soul" from my vocabulary, I should clarify that when I said "soulless" I didn't mean it to mean "evil", so much as just that I can't find anything that I could identify as anything so lofty as a "soul" in the company. It's just that a company made up of (in my opinion) the most creative, forward-thinking, and damn loveable game artists trying to be marketed and directed by the batshit-craziest risk-taking, most inferiority complex-ridden, utterly incomprehensible salarymen seems capable of making me speak in sparkly-eyed words like "soul" because that's so much more relatable and human and interesting. Sony, sure they're not "evil", but they are business-driven to the point that I don't find them relatable or defensible in terms of their contribution to the industry as an artistic medium whatsoever. They've been great for the business and popularity of games, for certain, but despite their minor creative contributions and periodic associations with true artists in the field, it has not ultimately served those things in and of themselves -- they have absolutely not created a fertile environment for off-the-wall creativity in games.

Business just has some really unfortunate side-effects. Sure, PlayStation as a brand is far from all bad, but overall it's a great loss for the creative side of the industry that Sony and Microsoft's business practices and expectations have lead industry standards rather than one which promotes competitive co-existence with smaller upstart companies. Sure, Sega was a business overall, but I didn't see Sega of America rushing to snuff out NEC/Hudson when the Turbo was failing to take hold in the market like Sony did with the Dreamcast. I mean honestly, their behavior during that time is still utterly baffling to me -- I mean, yes, I know they're a business, but WHY go through all that effort to pulverize a complete non-threat of a company like that when they're after a niche market you don't cater to in the first place? Sure, "business is business" is the mantra and people follow it, but let's just set precedents aside for a moment and look at that situation -- on a logical, rational level was that not just greedy as fuck? And to do that to a company that you had worked with five years before, no less? That's exactly what I'm talking about -- the people making the decisions probably didn't even know about the ImageSoft projects to begin with -- they're too massive and creatively placeless to keep up with things like that, and that's why I don't trust a company that gargantuan and scatter-brained in a creative field. No stream of consciousness whatsoever.

Haha, clearly the main issue for me is that I am NOT a businessman.

This basically sums it all up for me. specifically this...

Quote
There are two types of companies: those that use creativity to promote their business, and those that use business to promote their creativity

Now no matter how much the Sega under the sega sammy regime has changed from the old Sega at least there is still some of that spirit that was in abundance and made Sega the legend it became. But i could never say that about the soul deficient Sony in any capacity.

Offline Nameless 24

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2013, 08:23:39 am »
It's a shame SEGA couldn't compete against Sony, but when your fanbase dwindled due to abandoning the consoles early, it's to be expected.

However, I am happy SEGA made the business decision that made sense (at the time).

I don't mind Sony personally, since it's just business why they did what they did, but their franchises don't excite me nearly as much (I like Uncharted and Gravity Daze, but not much else), which is why they were aggressive. What they lacked in creativity, they made up for in marketing...something SEGA was really bad at (well...not in the Mega Drive era, but still).

Although it's sad to see SEGA no longer in the hardware business, I am happy that we, as fans, have stood by them (even in their darker times), and being such a small fanbase, we appreciate only now their games, in addition to why Nintendo make similar games (although never in the same style). I think as a SEGA fan, we have a unique perspective on an industry that is now catering to soulless sequels, so when someone like Vanillaware, ATLUS or even Suda51 make something creative, we praise it really high whilst condemn how Capcom, Konami and Namco spam the same tried and tested formula (or in Capcpom's case, westernise them).

Although it's a sad read, I believe SEGA can be proud on what they attempted to do...being the Underdog of the industry throughout, and gave many people joy from their games. (No one can fault their ideas, even if the execution has a lot to be desired)

Not even Nintendo can create so many unique franchises and get it right, first time. SEGA have a wealth of IPs that many enjoy to this day and are even considered national treasures at the Manchester PlayExpo (I was amazed at just how many gamers there played; Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, Daytona, Outrun (both games), After Burner, Sonic, NiGHTS and even Chu Chu Rocket multiplayer!) They even provided retro games like Super Fantasy Zone (which I bought), and Skies of Arcadia.)

 Trust me when I say, the gamers haven't forgotten from my impression.
Big fan of Claymore, Miria in particular.

Currently playing Yakuza 0.

Offline Salsatuna

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2013, 09:08:32 am »
I have been Sega all the way since the Megadrive. I very much like the Saturn but i loved and actually still loves my Dreamcast. I even have quite some (good) sealed DC games.

But i can only agree, with ROJM, about the fact Sony is a "soulless" company. Now, me too, I respect Sony when it comes to its speciality and that is producing sound. I own a Walkman. Now i'm not talking about the Cassette player but a modern age walkman. Though the one I have is not a recent model (NWZ-A826) , it beats the Ipod anyday. 
When i look back at the Dreamcast era, I can only be disgusted by the way Sony acted. It acted like a little rich kid, who can afford to bully others because his parents sponsors the school.

Why is that, that Sony doesn't allow any direct competitors? Why did it screw Sega the way it did? Why did it screw Toshiba the way it did (HD-DVD)? Isn't it possible for diffrent technology to co-exist, and that in the end the consumer chose the one they like? Surely there was enough space for different competitors, no?

For those reasons, me too, I will never buy a Playstation. This company has no code. no honor. And this coming from a Japan-based company. A country that I have been idealizing since i was a kid.

That's why, i chose to go with the Xbox. Yes, Microsoft. Now, you can say bad things about MS too. But they are playiing on the same level as Sony. In that case, see it as 'fight fire with fire'.
And in a way I have always felt that the Xbox, was the spiritual successor of the Dreamcast. It feels very Sega like when u play a game. Maybe that is because of the ABXY button layout, maybe because of the shoulder trigger buttons. Or just maybe because the Dreamcast operated under Windows CE, which is Windows, which is Microsoft.

I can only hope that, and I a way, wish that one day Sega, resurrects from its ashes, and comes back to the hardware playground. Because, and I'm sure I'm not the only who noticed it, the market is mature, and getting bigger and bigger.

So, Sega, If you are reading this, make some good financial decisions, but keep your soul, and buy Toshiba or go in a joint-venture or make a merger, i dont know which one, but just try to make a deal. And persevere! With all the comotion around Sony and Microsoft, a new Sega branded console, would have stolen everyone's thunder.

You had great ideas: Virtual Reality was yours, 3D was yours.networking, wordwide or not, was your idea. Dual-screen playing, was your idea. Installing apps, was your idea. Motion control was your idea. You had the will, but not the support.
The future is hardware!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:17:45 am by Salsatuna »
Salsatuna is my universal account. Except on the PSN as someone stole my alias. Oh, PS! Why must you always torment me!!!

Offline crackdude

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2013, 04:13:18 pm »
Salsatuna, first of all welcome to our home :)

Second, I really enjoyed your post.
I too used to support Microsoft in spite of Sony, but as the years progressed MS has slowly been destroying that Sega-y heritage in favor of grabbing some bucks. And Sony has actually developed a "soul". At least in my opinion.

I don't think there will ever be another Sega console, sadly. But it is true, Sega's vision 15 years ago is our present (not as cheap though). I am grateful for supporting this dream ever since it's beginning.
SEG4GES

Offline ROJM

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 03:11:13 am »
I have been Sega all the way since the Megadrive. I very much like the Saturn but i loved and actually still loves my Dreamcast. I even have quite some (good) sealed DC games.

But i can only agree, with ROJM, about the fact Sony is a "soulless" company. Now, me too, I respect Sony when it comes to its speciality and that is producing sound. I own a Walkman. Now i'm not talking about the Cassette player but a modern age walkman. Though the one I have is not a recent model (NWZ-A826) , it beats the Ipod anyday. 
When i look back at the Dreamcast era, I can only be disgusted by the way Sony acted. It acted like a little rich kid, who can afford to bully others because his parents sponsors the school.

Why is that, that Sony doesn't allow any direct competitors? Why did it screw Sega the way it did? Why did it screw Toshiba the way it did (HD-DVD)? Isn't it possible for diffrent technology to co-exist, and that in the end the consumer chose the one they like? Surely there was enough space for different competitors, no?

For those reasons, me too, I will never buy a Playstation. This company has no code. no honor. And this coming from a Japan-based company. A country that I have been idealizing since i was a kid.

That's why, i chose to go with the Xbox. Yes, Microsoft. Now, you can say bad things about MS too. But they are playiing on the same level as Sony. In that case, see it as 'fight fire with fire'.
And in a way I have always felt that the Xbox, was the spiritual successor of the Dreamcast. It feels very Sega like when u play a game. Maybe that is because of the ABXY button layout, maybe because of the shoulder trigger buttons. Or just maybe because the Dreamcast operated under Windows CE, which is Windows, which is Microsoft.

I can only hope that, and I a way, wish that one day Sega, resurrects from its ashes, and comes back to the hardware playground. Because, and I'm sure I'm not the only who noticed it, the market is mature, and getting bigger and bigger.

So, Sega, If you are reading this, make some good financial decisions, but keep your soul, and buy Toshiba or go in a joint-venture or make a merger, i dont know which one, but just try to make a deal. And persevere! With all the comotion around Sony and Microsoft, a new Sega branded console, would have stolen everyone's thunder.

You had great ideas: Virtual Reality was yours, 3D was yours.networking, wordwide or not, was your idea. Dual-screen playing, was your idea. Installing apps, was your idea. Motion control was your idea. You had the will, but not the support.
The future is hardware!

yes, welcome to the asylum old sega supporter.
I won't say that sega is perfect in the way they handle their buisness but at least they haven't tried to systematically try to put others out of buisness which S*ny has done numourous times. And after what CD has just said which has been mentioned a couple of times, all the main players in the console biz today has ripped off ideas off Sega's consoles for over a decade now. At one point they're going to run out of things to rip off from Sega and that's when our industry is really going to be in trouble if this continues.

Offline Team Andromeda

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 05:19:38 am »
Quote
When i look back at the Dreamcast era, I can only be disgusted by the way Sony acted. It acted like a little rich kid, who can afford to bully others because his parents sponsors the school.

Why is that, that Sony doesn't allow any direct competitors? Why did it screw Sega the way it did? Why did it screw Toshiba the way it did (HD-DVD)? Isn't it possible for diffrent technology to co-exist, and that in the end the consumer chose the one they like? Surely there was enough space for different competitors, no

Its BIG Business sadly and you make a rather silly point about HD DVD. It was allowed to co-exist but the consumer chose the BluRay . I mean SONY tried it own DVD format with Philips but the Toshiba format won out (before SONY had a chance to bring out their system)  and SONY lost out to VHS with Betamax SEGA and Nintendo were pretty ruthless with its own rivals and did all it could make sure the likes of NEC, Commodore, Atari , 3DO wouldn't take sales away from them.

In the end SEGA shot them self's in the foot and lost the war with the way they handled the 32 bit transition and SEGA never really recovered from that . SEGA lost to many consumers, too much money and too many 3rd parties to the PS, to really have a chance with the DC, but even with the DC SEGA made some utter screw ups - No DVD delivery method (not so much playback) no digital out , No Twin sticks and lack of buttons on the joypads are issues that should have never have happened .


And you like MS did you say ? Is this the company that promised SEGA that it wasn't working on its own console (when it fact it was developing 2 consoles) the same company that made sure Netscape went out of business and a corp that has faced countless court actions for abusing its monopoly . Moves that make MS one of the most hated corps in the world

Think hard now Guvnor ... 

 
Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
One of the best 3D shooting games available
Presented for your pleasure

Offline Nameless 24

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2013, 05:54:12 am »
Its BIG Business sadly and you make a rather silly point about HD DVD. It was allowed to co-exist but the consumer chose the BluRay . I mean SONY tried it own DVD format with Philips but the Toshiba format won out (before SONY had a chance to bring out their system)  and SONY lost out to VHS with Betamax SEGA and Nintendo were pretty ruthless with its own rivals and did all it could make sure the likes of NEC, Commodore, Atari , 3DO wouldn't take sales away from them.

It's a good thing SEGA/Nintendo couldn't budge Commodore in the UK PC market then...that was more a ZX Speccy/C64/AMSTRAD/BBC Micro war there. :p
Big fan of Claymore, Miria in particular.

Currently playing Yakuza 0.

Offline Trippled

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2013, 06:48:23 pm »
Sega should of made consoles based on their Model 1/2/3 Hardware. Or at least close to it, so games could be ported as good as possible.

The Saturn with it's 2D focus just was wrong imo. Sega themselfs never really provided many games that look took advantage of the 2D strengh of the Saturn. The PSX always blew the 3D attempts at the Saturn.

Offline crackdude

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2013, 05:26:36 am »
Sega should of made consoles based on their Model 1/2/3 Hardware. Or at least close to it, so games could be ported as good as possible.
They did.

System 16 = Mega Drive
Model 2 = Saturn
Model 3/Naomi = Dreamcast
SEG4GES

Offline Salsatuna

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2013, 05:41:35 am »
Its BIG Business sadly and you make a rather silly point about HD DVD. It was allowed to co-exist but the consumer chose the BluRay . I mean SONY tried it own DVD format with Philips but the Toshiba format won out (before SONY had a chance to bring out their system)  and SONY lost out to VHS with Betamax SEGA and Nintendo were pretty ruthless with its own rivals and did all it could make sure the likes of NEC, Commodore, Atari , 3DO wouldn't take sales away from them.

In the end SEGA shot them self's in the foot and lost the war with the way they handled the 32 bit transition and SEGA never really recovered from that . SEGA lost to many consumers, too much money and too many 3rd parties to the PS, to really have a chance with the DC, but even with the DC SEGA made some utter screw ups - No DVD delivery method (not so much playback) no digital out , No Twin sticks and lack of buttons on the joypads are issues that should have never have happened .


And you like MS did you say ? Is this the company that promised SEGA that it wasn't working on its own console (when it fact it was developing 2 consoles) the same company that made sure Netscape went out of business and a corp that has faced countless court actions for abusing its monopoly . Moves that make MS one of the most hated corps in the world

Think hard now Guvnor ...

To be quite honest about the HD-DVD. It wasn't the choice of the consumer. At that time Blu-ray players were way too expensive for the majority of people to buy. And at that time it was only about films. A whole lot of distributors (Warner Brothers etc.) were releasing their products on both players (HD-DVD and Blu-ray). But at some point they started to choose a side,as if it was necessary, and in the end only Microsoft was supporting the HD-DVD format. In my opinion this was an elaborated scheme of one company, who, in my opinion made some (financial) promesses to them.

As I said, the majority wasn't buying those players and especially the blu-ray, as it was too expensive. So knowing that, there is no way, the consumer made a choice. Yes, the blu-ray had a higher capacity, but the HD-DVD became double-sided (DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other side). So, in no way the HD-DVD was inferior, as capacity doesn't make a system inferior.

If so, why did the VHS became popular? While the Video 2000 from Phillips was double-sided? It appears that the only reason was that, pornographic material was made available to the VHS and not to other/all the formats .

As all the good Sega connaisseurs, me too, I know that SEGA shot in its own foot. This has even became history. But it certainly has nothing to do with the gamepad/controller that made people choose a Playstation.

I agree, that the Dreamcast didn't have a DVD player for games or even for playback. Or digital out. But did anyone who has a DC missed it? No, they didn't. You were still able to have higher quality imagery thanks to VGA output. It didn't have 720p (*edit 560p). I admit that. But as I'm European, it didn't matter a bit. Even when I had an Xbox, I could not have 720p (edit: 560p)as it wasnt supported on European models (PAL systems). And at that time, no one really cared about that kind of resolution.

So, it only seems that people bought a PS because of a Unique Selling Proposition, and that was "it has a DVD player". Now, that same caterogy of people, are bashing the unborn XboxOne because, it is proposing other features besides "just gaming"!

I never said I like Microsoft but I said that I chose Microsoft over Sony. For obvious reasons. To be honest, Sega was the last brand I felt associated with. Evenmore, I do not identify myself with a brand. I buy something because of its quality and the purpose of it. Sega made quality products regardless of their marketing strategy.

And as I said, people can say bad things about Microsoft too. But here I am only referring to the Xbox, which is one the many products (and also a trademark) of Microsoft. It is not because I buy an Xbox, that it means that I adore it and that I am a true follower.  It is like saying that if I go to McDonalds, that i endorse, animal cruelty?! Which I don't!

Yes, Microsoft, did things wrong. But,it doesn't mean that when I buy a Xbox that I condone it. But above all, it doesn't mean that if one company did it, that in that case another one may do it aswell.

Correct me if i'm wrong?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 01:36:37 pm by Salsatuna »
Salsatuna is my universal account. Except on the PSN as someone stole my alias. Oh, PS! Why must you always torment me!!!

Offline Salsatuna

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2013, 05:47:08 am »
Salsatuna, first of all welcome to our home :)

Second, I really enjoyed your post.
I too used to support Microsoft in spite of Sony, but as the years progressed MS has slowly been destroying that Sega-y heritage in favor of grabbing some bucks. And Sony has actually developed a "soul". At least in my opinion.

I don't think there will ever be another Sega console, sadly. But it is true, Sega's vision 15 years ago is our present (not as cheap though). I am grateful for supporting this dream ever since it's beginning.

Thanks for the warm welcome :) . I also would like to add, that, I was always present, watching and reading, on the site.
I'm an observator, but occasionaly, I participate or intervene.

Yes, I know it's wishful thinking from me, wanting a new Sega console. One can only hope for the day.
Salsatuna is my universal account. Except on the PSN as someone stole my alias. Oh, PS! Why must you always torment me!!!

Offline Nameless 24

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Re: Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2013, 07:53:13 am »
Yes, I know it's wishful thinking from me, wanting a new Sega console. One can only hope for the day.

If anything, SEGA should take a stab at the handhelds again.

Or at the very least, help Nintendo design the next console with royalties being handed to them in such a partnership. That way, SEGA are guaranteed sales AND they have a platform to which to put their games on, without as much of a risk due to the royalties from other companies.

I believe it's only time before companies start working together on a console where everybody wins in terms of development time and cycles.
Big fan of Claymore, Miria in particular.

Currently playing Yakuza 0.