How BottleRocker could've destroyed Streets of Rage

[fluffymoochicken]

[youtube:pwg2guvt]93c8N97xu68[/youtube:pwg2guvt]

Visually, yes, that game looks completely horrible. Looks like they were hoping to focus entirely on the gameplay first and get to graphical aesthetics later.

As long as the game controlled similar to, say, Ratchet & Clank, it might have been decent enough with a huge art design overhaul.

[ROJM]

Streets of Rage on the other hand, I think 2 is pretty much the best beat em up ever and do not know how they can improve on this or make it around the same kind of quality. It would be hard to do. If they do it, pretty sure it is going to be a big action game on the HD consoles, which is worrying.

I always thought of Yakuza as being a modern-day equivalent to Streets of Rage. While they would need big changes, I think they could use Yakuza as a basis for a Streets game.

Knowing Sega though, they'll probably have some small team make their own brand new engine instead.

Actually Yakuza is more SPIKEOUT than anything else mixed with the RPG elements to create the only real arcade adventure available these days. How i long for the time when AA titles were in abundance. Anyway SOR is dead with SOJ, the only ones who are going to resurrect it is Sega West so unless they try to convince Yuzo or some individuals in SOJ to guide the project with a western developer its just gonna be a title completly western made.

[Team Andromeda]

There just isn't a market for a 3D Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Double Dragoon. There isn't much of market for 3D Vs Fighters, never mind a scrolling Beat Them up's  (a genre that was dying out inthe 16 bit days)

I would love a Spikeout take on Jackie Chan Police Story and Project A series. You could have QTE for the set pieces like Jackie Umbrella Stunt (Police Story 1) or Jackie Helicopter stunt (Police Story 3) and a huge interactive shopping mall with breakable barriers and balconies (so you can kick people to the floors below) . But its never going to happen

They've had their day, not many people will pay £40 or $60 for a simple 3D scrolling fighter

[cube_b3]

VECTORMAN PS2 got unfare criticism, it was an early build and what they were trying to acheive was interesting, even the original creators seemed to like it as well as IGN who apparently played it. People hated it because they didn't like the Halo esque nature to the game. But VM and TJAE are one of the most requested games from Sega fans behind the big three most requested Sega games.

Then why somebody as aloof about quality as Simon Jeffery pulled the plug on it?

Apart from that the new SOR game that Yuzo wanted to do with hitmaker was earmarked for Xbox not the PS2. But the pitch to the suits didn't meet approval apparently.

Noriyoshi Oba while promoting Shinobi at IGN also said he wants to do it, and at the time Ayano Koshiro was working at OverWorks.

The sad truth is Sega's seemed to have moved beyond SOR now. Even if they brought it back would it even be the game you lot want? Look at SHINOBI. Good solid game 3D game but was it the shinobi game sega fans wanted? PROJECT ALTERED BEAST was the same.I had more fun with the GBA version since it was closer to the original in style.

Yes the released Shinobi isn't exactly the Joe Musachi platformer but if you beat it once and unlock Joe, it does become the old game. I think had the franchise continued to the 3rd installment Joe Musachi would've returned.

I haven't played the GBA Altered Beast, and the Rieko Kodama produced Reboot was fantastic if only they removed the transformation clips after they had been viewed once.

I didn't really go to far in it, but the Gameplay completely changed with each Beast, it was awesome.

[spoiler:15v9t2rr]I always assumed Hotsuma was rescued by Joe at the end of the 1st game, and the 3rd game would feature them together finding and rescuing Hibana from the hell she had welcomed at the end of the game[/spoiler:15v9t2rr]

But the sad truth is sega doesn't seem to be capable of giving these games the development and platform they need and deserve and in AP case catching lighting in a bottle was obviously a once in a lifetime moment for that title. Time to move on and remember these games in their old glory before we have a situation like we have with the SHINING FORCE series where its been totally blighted by the new games which some say has also happened with the PHANTASY STAR series since it went online. You can't please all the peeps all the time.

Skies of Arcadia proved that OverWorks was more than capable of making PS5, EGM's main criticism of the Skies Preview was that they wanted PS5 instead of SOA (which isn't really a complaint).

I regard Noriyoshi Sama and Kodama San higher than any other Sega Designers, Noriyoshi Sama is my Suzuki and Kodama San is my Naka.

[ROJM]

Then why somebody as aloof about quality as Simon Jeffery pulled the plug on it?

The backlash was down to what Vector man looked like not whether the game was actually bad,not many people played it for starters and those who did thought it was OK. And really why did SJ can it? Why did SJ let a bad game like COMPASS out the door among others? Its nothing to do with bad game design that's for sure, probably was down to whether they thought it was marketable.

Noriyoshi Oba while promoting Shinobi at IGN also said he wants to do it, and at the time Ayano Koshiro was working at OverWorks.

Yet it hasn't happened. Like I said SOJ isn't really interested. Its all about the big franchise titles now at Sega like YAKUZA, MUSHI KING and so forth.

Yes the released Shinobi isn't exactly the Joe Musachi platformer but if you beat it once and unlock Joe, it does become the old game. I think had the franchise continued to the 3rd installment Joe Musachi would've returned.

Don't agree, i think the way it was approched wasn't in line with past SHINOBI titles. SHINOBI was all about pacing and not about how quickly you could kill an enemy.

I didn't really go to far in it, but the Gameplay completely changed with each Beast, it was awesome.

Those titles really needed a better budget and a better platform then the one that was ultimatly used for both neo SHINOBI titles.

Skies of Arcadia proved that OverWorks was more than capable of making PS5, EGM's main criticism of the Skies Preview was that they wanted PS5 instead of SOA (which isn't really a complaint).

I regard Noriyoshi Sama and Kodama San higher than any other Sega Designers, Noriyoshi Sama is my Suzuki and Kodama San is my Naka.

To each there own, but it clearly shows why sega need to have there own system again if we ever want a return to form on certain series or a return of certain franchises.

[cube_b3]

There just isn't a market for a 3D Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Double Dragoon. There isn't much of market for 3D Vs Fighters, never mind a scrolling Beat Them up's  (a genre that was dying out inthe 16 bit days)

That explains why Street Fighter 4 and Super SF4 failed so badly... no wait, it didn't.

They've had their day, not many people will pay £40 or $60 for a simple 3D scrolling fighter

The franchise has to evolve to the current generation, not be restored to it's 16 bit glory.

Sonic Adventure isn't one of the top 10 game for Dreamcast, because it is old school side scrolling Sonic, no it is a classic because how it reinvigorated the classic character.

The backlash was down to what Vector man looked like not whether the game was actually bad,not many people played it for starters and those who did thought it was OK. And really why did SJ can it? Why did SJ let a bad game like COMPASS out the door among others? Its nothing to do with bad game design that's for sure, probably was down to whether they thought it was marketable.

Well said sir, well said.

Noriyoshi Oba while promoting Shinobi at IGN also said he wants to do it, and at the time Ayano Koshiro was working at OverWorks.

Yet it hasn't happened. Like I said SOJ isn't really interested. Its all about the big franchise titles now at Sega like YAKUZA, MUSHI KING and so forth.

End of the day it isn't about SOJ, it was SOA that decided not to release Altered Beast, it was SOA that rejected the funding of the OverWorks build of SOR4DC.

Don't agree, i think the way it was approched wasn't in line with past SHINOBI titles. SHINOBI was all about pacing and not about how quickly you could kill an enemy.

I see. Shinobi website had detailed comparisons with the PS2 and ROJM, but they were all comparing the in game art.

To me the previous Shinobi games felt like a shooter with all the Shiryuken's I had to fire at enemies and unlocked Joey restored that where as Hotsuma's Shiryuken's were extremely limited and only stunned enemies.

Those titles really needed a better budget and a better platform then the one that was ultimatly used for both neo SHINOBI titles.

I won't comment on the budget, aside from the point I belive you made about the game being outsourced to China at Nerds Forums way back.

The thing to me that clicked was Mokata Uchida games always had simplistic gameplay with amazing graphics and Altered Beast was no different.

To each there own, but it clearly shows why sega need to have there own system again if we ever want a return to form on certain series or a return of certain franchises.

 :cry: That won't happen, at the moment people are questioning whether we'll have a PS4/X720.

[Team Andromeda]

That explains why Street Fighter 4 and Super SF4 failed so badly... no wait, it didn't

Street Fighter IV did well, the follow up did not.
Tekken 6 and VF 5 were poor to sellers to what the series used to sell.

And its not like Modern scrolling beat them ups have sold any better Spike Out and the like of Warriors sold quite poor, and Streets of Rage III sold no where near that of the SOR II and that was at the height of the Mega Drive sales .

They're both very niche markets now, like with 3D and 2D shooters

The franchise has to evolve to the current generation, not be restored to it's 16 bit glory.

People tastes have moved on , same for Point and Click games, Flight. Not many will pay $60 or £50 for a scrolling beat them up with a play time,  of a couple of hours. That is the trouble these game face.

Sonic Adventure isn't one of the top 10 game for Dreamcast, because it is old school side scrolling Sonic

Platform games are now a rather limited genre, even for Sonic games. Compared to the 16 bit days where almost everyone made a Platform games of some sort.

it was SOA that decided not to release Altered Beast, it was SOA that rejected the funding of the OverWorks build of SOR4DC.

SOA rejected PAB because it was rather crap and there no getting away from it, because it was  . SOA did not can SOR IV at all.
If SEGA Japan really wanted to make SOR IV they would have funded it them self's , like they did for any DC product they wanted to make.

The real truth is SOJ passed up on SOR IV and it was offered to SOA (the games best market), both arms didn't really believe in the project and felt it wouldn't sell well enough (I'm talking of the DC version here, not the X-Box)

[cube_b3]

Street Fighter IV did well, the follow up did not.
Tekken 6 and VF 5 were poor to sellers to what the series used to sell.

Well said, sir.

However you forgot one important variable; the PS3 at the time was out of budget for most gamers and the X360's controller sucks all the fun out of fighters.

Tekken 6 was also disappointing in general.

And its not like Modern scrolling beat them ups have sold any better Spike Out and the like of Warriors sold quite poor, and Streets of Rage III sold no where near that of the SOR II and that was at the height of the Mega Drive sales .

They're both very niche markets now, like with 3D and 2D shooters

Aah solid points again, but Spike Out was negatively received, it was basically a game running on the Shenmue fight engine.

I haven't played it but pointing at Spike Out and saying the genre is dead is like pointing to Final Fight: Street Wise and saying the genre is dead.

SpikeOut could have been a sucky game, I remember it was selling very cheap and people still said it isn't worth playing.
Valkyria Chronicles revitalized the J-Rpg genre by evolving it.

SOR3 may have been a commercial failure but BareKnuckles 3 is a classic, SOR3 US release was heavily modified and features like the bike segments were removed altogether. Further More the level design wasn't even as good as SOR2.

So SOR3 missed quite a few notes.
________________

My simple point is that if done right, the franchise can be resuscitated, all your points of changing trends and genre's dying are valid but if Capcom can bring Street Fighter back into the main stream SEGA can bring SOR/VectroMan or any other franchise.

[Team Andromeda]

However you forgot one important variable; the PS3 at the time was out of budget for most gamers and the X360's controller sucks all the fun out of fighters.

Hmm.. useless controllers never held back SF IV  or DOA IV sales on the 360  and VF 5 and Tekken 6 just sold will poor, even with decent userbase.

VS fighter are a limited niche market. That's why many don't development them any longer, be in the Arcade or Home. I don't like it, but that's the current marketplace.

it was basically a game running on the Shenmue fight engine.

Its was a take/port  of the Model 3 game. Its sold like crap, even with the SEGA faithful. I seen many people claim is uses the Shenmue engine, I don't think it does myself, its suffers none of the missing troubles of Shenmue, I would say that 18 Wheeler was more using the Shenmue engine

Its a decent take of the Model 3 game and was brilliant fun in multi player mode (I loved the X-box version) . Hurt by sub bar graphics and a limited genre.

but pointing at Spike Out and saying the genre is dead is like pointing to Final Fight: Street Wise and saying the genre is dead.

The market isn't dead, just limited and niche (like 2d shooters) . And next to no developer is going to spend £20 million (what most gen games cost) on such a limited genre

That is the sad reality.

SOR3 may have been a commercial failure but BareKnuckles 3 is a classic, SOR3 US release was heavily modified and features like the bike segments were removed altogether.

That wouldn't have made a difference, there were changes with SOR II. It was just a genre that even inthe 16 bit days was on its way out, with people wanted better value from their games.

Valkyria Chronicles revitalized the J-Rpg genre by evolving i

Its sold quite lower numbers and is now forced to be developed on the PSP.  The Japanese RPG's  gone through tough times this generation (bar ones by some of the Major players) people have just got bored of the same game play and moved on

My simple point is that if done right, the franchise can be resuscitated, all your points of changing trends and genre's dying are valid but if Capcom can bring Street Fighter back into the main stream SEGA can bring SOR/VectroMan or any other franchise.

You could say that about any IP. I love SEGA to make a new Panzer Dragoon Orta II, But have to wake up to the fact that 3D shooters was a limited genre in the 32 bit days, never mind now .
 I Love Wonderboy, would so love to see a 3D version using the Hedgehog engine, hell I love a BUG III
But its a limited genre and no developer is going to spend 20 million on developing such a big risk, even racers have found it hard this gene.

[ROJM]

That explains why Street Fighter 4 and Super SF4 failed so badly... no wait, it didn't.

Exactly. I'm rather late to aid you in this battle since you've already replied but the fact is that many genres have there ups and downs, it doesn't mean the genre is dead totally or that it can't be revived to its former glories and specifically that they don't make any more of that genre these days. Only someone like him would think that it would be. Really showing his longterm experience in games and the industry. Sega last proper beat em up was DYNAMITE DEKA 3 or ASIAN DYNAMITE as it was called in the UK and other markets, a while back as well as THE latest VF5 travesty. You don't see arcade adventures that much since the advent of 32 bit systems until YAKUZA single handly revived the genre. And that took a decade and a half for that to happen to a genre that was more or less dead.

[

The franchise has to evolve to the current generation, not be restored to it's 16 bit glory.

That's the key thing, like Sonic those type of games hasn't been adapted properly into the 3D arena, SPIKEOUT and DD showed the way but nobody went on to create a perfect game beyond that. The genre hasn't had a watershed moment in 3D gaming yet like platformers did with the Mario games like Mario 64 and such. It usually takes one great game in a genre for everyone to keep buying titles within that genre. That's what happened after SF2, because half the clones afterwards definatly weren't worth 35,to 40 quid at the time but people still brought it, as with FF7 for RPGs that now enjoy good sales thanks to one game when before it was moderate.

End of the day it isn't about SOJ, it was SOA that decided not to release Altered Beast, it was SOA that rejected the funding of the OverWorks build of SOR4DC.

Yes 8 - 9 years ago, the management since then has changed. You have to remember that as far as the SOJ management is concerned most of the MD games we regard as classics were not regarded as such down to the MD not being as big in Japan. And SOJ could make SOR at anytime if they really wanted to do it they don't need SOA's approval. Saying that SOR is at SOA or Sega west now which indicates that its not a title that SOJ really cherishes. Your more likely going to see another SAKURA TAISEN game from SOJ than SOR.

I see. Shinobi website had detailed comparisons with the PS2 and ROJM, but they were all comparing the in game art.

To me the previous Shinobi games felt like a shooter with all the Shiryuken's I had to fire at enemies and unlocked Joey restored that where as Hotsuma's Shiryuken's were extremely limited and only stunned enemies.

Yes but just shooting at your enemies won't get you far in the MD SHINOBI games at least, you had to think about your attack which isn't IMO necessary in the PS2 versions which were more inspired by the flashy DMC style of games.

I won't comment on the budget, aside from the point I belive you made about the game being outsourced to China at Nerds Forums way back.

That was PROJECT ALTERED BEAST. And it showed since SHINOBI and PAB never looked polished.

The thing to me that clicked was Mokata Uchida games always had simplistic gameplay with amazing graphics and Altered Beast was no different.

Too bad he didn't get to revive GAXE.

To each there own, but it clearly shows why sega need to have there own system again if we ever want a return to form on certain series or a return of certain franchises.

 :

cry: That won't happen, at the moment people are questioning whether we'll have a PS4/X720.

Never say never in video games

[Team Andromeda]

Sega last proper beat em up was DYNAMITE DEKA 3 or ASIAN DYNAMITE as it was called in the UK and other markets, a while back as well as THE latest VF5 travesty.

We're talking about the Home Market here.

And if you want to bring DYNAMITE DEKA into it, how well did Part II sell on the DC ?. SEGA own machine with SEGA own fanbase and the game sold quite poor, or how well did Part III do in the Arcades ?.

You don't see arcade adventures that much since the advent of 32 bit systems until YAKUZA single handly revived the genre

Yakuza isn't a Arcade game and isn't a scrolling Beat them up,  in the true Streets of Rage style . Its a RPG with real time battles. Not any different from Shenmue really.

The likes of Oni, Spikeout, Warriros, Bouncer, Rent-A-Hero - have all fallen flat on their ass,  - It's a limited market

That's the key thing, like Sonic those type of games hasn't been adapted properly into the 3D arena,

Sonic Adv pretty much nailed everything one would want in 3D from a Sonic game. Sonic Adv II Sonic Levels were brilliant and the game still looks incredible.  The trouble is the other pointless gimmicks and side characters which no-one really cares about

as with FF7 for RPGs that now enjoy good sales thanks to one game when before it was moderate.

FF series was enjoying millions of sale on the SNES in Japan anyway. In the west well the PS and FMV hyped it all up, but it still remains one of the most returned games in history.
Just putting a well loved IP in the 3D world does not = success or great sales . ToeJam & Earl, Ecco found that out .
 A game like Batman ARKHAM ASYLUM kind of shows what it would take in term of depth and playtime

That would make SOR IV would be a massive multi million pound multi Platform production  . Never going to happen with the current SEGA

[cube_b3]

Oh happy day!

Never thought I'd see the day me and ROJM would fight side by side.

Anyway TA, I am tired of this discussion.

Dynamite Dekka wasn't a good game, neither was Zombie Revenge (which I believe sold well) and their complaints were deeper than the genre.

Please look up old reviews...

I agree the genre has gone down, but that is because we haven't had the right game in the genre more than any other reason....

On second thought what about Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks!!!!

That game was fairly successful critically and commercially!
In Conclusion, instead of going on and on and try to convince each other let's rap it up genre gone down, market still there if a good game is made.

For anything more let's agree to disagree.

[ROJM]

Yakuza isn't a Arcade game and isn't a scrolling Beat them up, in the true Streets of Rage style . Its a RPG with real time battles. Not any different from Shenmue really.

And with this quote, shows you to be the fraud you are. I said arcade adventure. Yet you actually said arcade. HAHAHA. You don't even know what an arcade adventure is which have always been traditional arcade style games mixed in with RPG gameplay. Anyone playing games as long as you keep claiming would know that. But you obviously haven't. Go back to playing FF7 and your playstation mentality that sony invented video games and leave the rerst of us alone. :lol:

[Team Andromeda]

traditional arcade style games mixed in with RPG gameplay

You mean like Capcom's Dungeon and Dragoons ?. Got that,and it plays nothing at all like Yakuza, neither does Story Of Thor (and that's made by parts of the Streets Team)

Go back to playing FF7 and your playstation mentality that sony invented video games and leave the rerst of us alone

Same old Joe,  pathetic little insults, even one puts up videos or even a scan of my Saturn receipt

Here's another (yes I even  keep all the receipts like I do with the games)

May 1995, ahh those were the days





 







I don't own a PS or FF7, I'll think you find. To much into the Saturn

[ROJM]

traditional arcade style games mixed in with RPG gameplay

You mean like Capcom's Dungeon and Dragoons ?. Got that,and it plays nothing at all like Yakuza, neither does Story Of Thor (and that's made by parts of the Streets Team)

Go back to playing FF7 and your playstation mentality that sony invented video games and leave the rerst of us alone

Same old Joe,  pathetic little insults, even one puts up videos or even a scan of my Saturn receipt

Here's another (yes I even  keep all the receipts like I do with the games)

May 1995, ahh those were the days


Anyone could make up that pic TA. sad really, really sad.

Oh and how funny that you complain about insults yet dish insults yourself. How black is your kettle,again?

Oh and really you still don't get it. Arcade adventure can be anything based on a arcade game meaning platform, beat em ups etc etc mixed in with RPG elements but hey don't take my "pathectic" little word for it you  take Sega's who describe YAKUZA as an arcade adventure. Really he actually thought games released in the arcade, what a simpleton. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
 
And i find your limited knowledge and attempts to pass off things that you clearly have no knowledge about an insult to me. Like I  said we all find things offensive and you my freind are offensive to me in each and every way down to passing opinions as historical fact.

Now please, kid go bother a PS FF7 or a sheep or whatever you lot do wherever you come from and leave me alone.