SEGA games at Gamescom 2010 (Sonics & Virtua Tennis 4)

[Sharky]

Optional? First, you can't disable it. Ultimately everybody will end up doing it by accident. If you can't disable it then it's not optional.

Simply don't press the button and it's optional.

Second, there seem to be sections based entirely around the move. Level design around the move doesn't make it optional otherwise I would be able to enjoy the ENTIRE game instead of just a couple of routes because I don't want to use Iizuka's magical idea. If I can't enjoy the whole game without the attack then it's not optional. If they wanted to include the move as an unlockable I'd be all for it as I said before, but then what's the point of Super Sonic? The homing attack makes the game ridiculously easy already.

Why don't you wait until the final build of the game which may have made changes to that design...

Third, watch the boss fight, it's a joke. The twist they introduced is pretty much irrelevant. There is no challenge. Stand on the far edge of the platform, press jump twice, rinse and repeat.

The original version of that boss IS easy... in fact I would say it is more easy in the classics then this version I can do it with out even thinking and not get hit... So the homing attack has changed nothing.

And again if you don't LIKE the homing attack don't use it... BAM instantly more challenging.

Fourth, the game was already ruined from the moment Sega announced Iizuka would be producing the game.

I think you are confusing 'ruined' with 'I'm going to have a negitive bias against it.'

Put it this way: for someone to enjoy the entire game (and by that I mean exploring all the levels), they will have to resort to the homing attack. Sure, you can beat it just fine without the attack. It's still not optional. If you still think the move is optional, well, okay, to each his own.

I think from what I have seen it is optional... Unless you actually cannot beat the game with out using it I would call it optional.

Not to mention most people that have ACTUALLY PLAYED the game have said it was fun and very often say that the homing attack felt fine.

Granted I think they should do a mode where it is disabled but ONLY for people that need it to be turned off so they understand it's optional...

[Orta]

I think you are confusing 'ruined' with 'I'm going to have a negitive bias against it.'

I have Takashi Iizuka in a pedestal.

[crackdude]

Your "record"? That doesn't sound like your first attempt. And they added the twist. For nothing, but they did.

The first time I saw that twist I was "OH SNAP I wasn't expecting that". I think that's what they're aiming for rather than making the boss harder. Hell, it was easy when I was 4 years old.

I was only pointing out that single aspect of your rant just to "prove" (not really prove but ya know..) that you're nitpicking.

Everyone is so stressed out about everything. Just chill out dudes.

[Orta]

Nitpicking would be the colour of the eyes. I'm arguing level design around the homing attack. That's pretty much the game.

[Sega Uranus]

All of the bosses in the game are tons of times easier now because of the homing attack, look at any of them and you will see. The new 'twist' should at least give him a few more hit points at least.

I like how my last post was pretty much ignored because it told everyone why it was a bad idea, cut and dry. Either way, stop trying to say it is optional... The game was designed around it. Ignoring it's use is like if in (using this analogy to help Sharky out, he needs it) Skies of Arcadia if they had a magic attack you could always use that would make the game easier and give you more secrets, why would you want to ignore like this and miss out on a lot of content? In the name of challenge? Sonic games were never supposed to be too hard anyways, but the points I made change the game in large ways, and it also removes a lot of creative gameplay that was in the first few games, even some of the Game Gear games will have more technical gameplay in some parts. This is just silly.

Nitpicking would be the colour of the eyes. I'm arguing level design around the homing attack. That's pretty much the game.

NO THIS IS REALLY WHAT YOU WANTED FOR SIXTEEN YEARS STOP WHINING

[crackdude]

Entirely what Orta said. It just is not optional, and like he also put, the levels are designed with it in mind.

So?
If the levels are designed around it then what's your point? That level design in gaming has evolved in the last 20 years?

I mean, it even makes the spindash useless in almost every case too because it instantly makes you go to your fastest speed instead of stopping to rev yourself up.

This is nonsense. Spindash makes you roll, you aren't running. If you double jump to the ground you'll run. It's different. You can't homing jump uphill for example.

It is needed in the 3D games I believe, but never the 2D ones... The proof is that they were all forced in some of the Advance games and both Rush releases. They sucked and no one used them.

The Advanced games don't have it. It's not the first time I read this around here. Sonic has that slash thing. It's not homing attack. And neither doesn't it suck, you use it if you want to.

~~~~

I don't get you people. You want the exact same mechanics form 16 years ago? Every Sonic game changed something. Sonic 2 had spindash, Sonic CD had time travel, Sonic 3 had power ups, Sonic and Knux had gliding with Knux. This one has homing attack. So what? This has been going on for OVER ONE HUNDRED PAGES (on the Sonic 4 thread) and it's nonsense! You are complaining over alpha footage and over a mechanic you haven't tried out yet! It's not a bad mechanic. It's not being tacked on. It does not take fun from the game. So WHAT. THE. HELL. Is your problem with it? It's different? GOOD. If I want the same I play the old games or some ROM hacks..

For once in almost 10 years there's an actually good Sonic game coming out, and the ones who should be most happy about it (Sega and Sonic fans) complain about THE MOST INCREDIBLY REDUNDANT SHIT.

Your so called "critical input" on the game is more "mindless bashing" and "negative bias" than anything really.

You reread this whole thread and you can resume almost every complaint to either "THIS IS STILL BETA BUT IT'S NOT WORKING OKAY SO SONIC TEAM IS SHIT HURRDURR" or "OMFG THE GAMEPLAY IS DIFFERENT FROM TWO DECADES AGO HERPDERP".

Goddamit this whole debate is stupid. Take it like a man. Enjoy the positive aspects the game is showing and leave you doubts to when you actually have the chance to play the full version.
So far I've yet to see anyone (but a Nintendo fanboy site) complain about the gameplay. Everybody is excited about the game, and almost everybody who has played it has had fun.

I don't get why having a homing attack would make the game less fun if the game is designed with it in mind.

tl;dr take it like a man

[Sega Uranus]

Entirely what Orta said. It just is not optional, and like he also put, the levels are designed with it in mind.

So?
If the levels are designed around it then what's your point? That level design in gaming has evolved in the last 20 years?

Evolution is not the same thing as changing the fundamentals. Sonic needed momentum in 1, 2 and 3. With the spindash he had to stop entirely before he could even start doing it, and it took like 2 or 3 seconds before it could even be up to it's full strength.

This is nonsense. Spindash makes you roll, you aren't running. If you double jump to the ground you'll run. It's different. You can't homing jump uphill for example.

Yes you can, it is in a lot of the videos. Also, you can start rolling as soon as you hit the ground so it is the same thing, except it makes the spindash pointless and a waste of the players time in comparison.

The Advanced games don't have it. It's not the first time I read this around here. Sonic has that slash thing. It's not homing attack. And neither doesn't it suck, you use it if you want to.

Advance 2 and 3 have the homing attack. The one in the first game is the Insta-Sheild. I love it Sonic the Hedgehog 3/Sonic & Knuckles because it gave the player a lot of creative options with how they could go through the level as Sonic. While Tails could fly and get through levels much easier, Knuckles had different routes that were actually quite hard. At the same time, Sonic (along with his special abilities from the shields) is for the people coming back to the game again and again to try new things that could potentially make it way harder or help you pass the act faster then ever. While the Insta-Sheild does in a sense make you invincible, it is only for half a second and the timing you need to use with it is incredibly hard to nail. This is a case of something that makes the game more challenging, but does not effect the level layout and is really, truly optional.

I don't get you people. You want the exact same mechanics form 16 years ago?

What? Literally no one has asked for just the same game over again. We just want a good one with ideas that are not retarded.

Every Sonic game changed something. Sonic 2 had spindash, Sonic CD had time travel, Sonic 3 had power ups, Sonic and Knux had gliding with Knux. This one has homing attack. So what?

First of all, you will find a lot of people here do not like Sonic CD much.

Your points otherwise outside of Knuckles do not effect the games to the point that level design is based around them. Knuckles was purposely designed to go through different routes, and in his case of gliding and climbing nothing was made significantly easier than what you have seen before. In most cases gliding would only slow down the game to increase platforming and exploration, the homing attack is different because it makes everything else Sonic can do in the game useless. Why use the spindash when it takes three seconds to rev up when you can just gain speed instantly? Why go backwards to set up a running jump when you can just use the homing attack to boost you across? Why aim your jumps over an enemy when you can just use the homing attack to hit him right away? Why fall down from a spring jump to retrieve a item monitor when you can just use the homing attack on it to get it then keep moving forward at full speed? Why run up to a swing when you can just use the homing attack to hit it right away AND make it move faster? Why are you ignoring these completely obvious changes to the fundamentals and just calling it optional?

You are complaining over alpha footage and over a mechanic you haven't tried out yet! It's not a bad mechanic. It's not being tacked on. It does not take fun from the game. So WHAT. THE. HELL. Is your problem with it? It's different? GOOD. If I want the same I play the old games or some ROM hacks..

What? We all have played at least a dozen games with the homing attack now. That is like arguing that I need to visit another country to understand that people are dying in them too. What gives you the authority to say we are not allowed to say it is bad, and you are allowed to say it is good anyways? You have double standards.

It is not being tacked on, but it is changing much of the game. Because of it, the level design and gimmicks found within it have changed. You cannot just remove these when it was a development choice from the first day. Again, saying it is optional is pretty much a joke. Read my comments about the homing attack in this post again if you need to.

And what is that shit about it being 'different'? Most of the art and gimmicks are shamelessly stolen from the Genesis/Mega Drive games. I realize the later episodes will have new stuff (supposedly), but it is pretty pathetic when Game Gear releases like Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble had more inspired art, now isn't it?

For once in almost 10 years there's an actually good Sonic game coming out, and the ones who should be most happy about it (Sega and Sonic fans) complain about THE MOST INCREDIBLY REDUNDANT SHIT.

I heard this same exact comment with every fucking release of a Sonic game in the past 10+ years now. Maybe not from you in particular, but I am tired of it. Can you just accept that the game has some problems at least? Jeez...

Your so called "critical input" on the game is more "mindless bashing" and "negative bias" than anything really.

How? Complaining that the fundamentals of what made the originals good are being tampered with is not mindless bashing. If anything, you are the one being mindless about this. If I remember right, when the very very first leak (I think back in February) of the game came out you were saying how the controls looked perfect.

Again I will state you are being mindless about this as most of my points have been skipped and you are just constantly yelling at us or telling us to chill out when all we want is a better game. Hey look, comments like the ones I have made helped remove the mine cart section for what looks to be probably the best level in the game!

You reread this whole thread and you can resume almost every complaint to either "THIS IS STILL BETA BUT IT'S NOT WORKING OKAY SO SONIC TEAM IS SHIT HURRDURR" or "OMFG THE GAMEPLAY IS DIFFERENT FROM TWO DECADES AGO HERPDERP".

Goddamit this whole debate is stupid. Take it like a man. Enjoy the positive aspects the game is showing and leave you doubts to when you actually have the chance to play the full version.

Now you are just putting words in our mouths and assuming too much. Again, no one asked for it to be EXACTLY the same as previous releases. I want new stuff too. Something like the torch is an excellent idea, something like putting the speed boosters in every damn level is not.

On the Sonic Team is shit argument... They were ready to release the game in July or something, the way you saw it before, strange mine cart and all. If you are cool with all of that, then okay whatever, but you DO have to admit that the changes they have made really have improved the overall quality of the product, and they are entirely thanks to people like me, Mang, Orta, Aki whos comments have helped actually make the game a little better. What have yours done? Fucking nothing.

Yeah, that is right.

Take it like a man.

Take it like a Goddamn man.

 8-)

[Aki-at]

If we wanted the same mechanics from 16 years ago, most people here would defend the game because it uses similar set pieces found in Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and even art direction. At the same time, what is wrong with having the same set of mechanics? Sonic added more than just core gameplay, not one level felt similar to the last, not because the games kept adding new moves, but because the levels themselves were different. Sonic the Hedgehog 4 does not do that as much as it should.

Besides, If Mario can stay so similar for so long, why cannot Sonic the Hedgehog? Nintendo have not alienated their fanbase to the level the Sonic series has, the Sonic fanbase have made fans for or against multiple characters, for or against serious storylines, for or against boosting, for or against homing attack, for or against even damn VA. Radically changing the series as they have done so much is not good for the series in the long term, at least they seem to be sticking with what Sonic Unleashed accomplished.

And why should one "Take it like a man" ? Contray to popular belief, some of us are looking forward to other excellent game like Yakuza 5, Mafia 2, King of Fighters or Halo Reach instead of a good Sonic game. We do not have to take it if we think we can find more fun with other products or feel the product maybe slightly lacking, we might be paying customers.

Finally, the homing attack is not truly optional, it would be if you another character had specifically this ability, whilst Sonic retain all his ability minus that, or a sheild that Sonic could use allows the homing attack but it's not.

Furthermore during the leak, stages were revealed where you have to specfically use the homing attack in a chain of 5 badniks or fall into a pit of doom, now this might have been changed but Sanus does bring an excellent point, it would not have been changed if people like us never complained about it in the first place.

[Dr. SEGA Monkey]

My only hope is that the game gets leaked again, and everybody rips it apart forcing SEGA to delay the game again....because I honestly don't think they can fix this game in time.

As for the Homing Attack, I don't really mind that it's in the game. My main problem with the game is the HORRIBLE physics, so the Homing Attack is such a non-issue when you think about it. Yeah, it creates a boring moment in the levels where all you're doing is mashing "A" over a bottomless pit, but it's not enough to completely ruin the game for me.

What they SHOULD get rid of is that "air dash" move. It's just stupid that you can get a cheap burst of speed like that.

I don't understand....if SEGA knew that the Homing Attack would bring a lot of controversy (which they did know), then WHY THE HELL did they put it in the game anyway? It was just so stupid of them.

[Aki-at]

I don't understand....if SEGA knew that the Homing Attack would bring a lot of controversy (which they did know), then WHY THE HELL did they put it in the game anyway? It was just so stupid of them.

You mean Takashi Iizuka, the man who said the problems with the games is not the games themselves but rather the fans? And the man who considers Sonic Team the top professionals at designing platformer levels?

When you consider what he came out with about two weeks ago, it's not hard to imagine why they did it.

[Dr. SEGA Monkey]

Ironically, Iizuka once said that not having the Homing Attack in the 2D games and instead manually jumping on top of your enemies was "part of the fun".

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CQo-5NVArk#t=3m26s

[crackdude]

I was funny to read through your responses at my rant haha

To some comments on it not being optional, reread my post, I never said it was. I said the level design was based around it. I did used to believe it was optional, but the newer videos show otherwise. I'm okay with that.
But it just goes to show that you guys have a fixed mentality. Your "speech" is preformed even before you read what I have to say.

Yes you can, it is in a lot of the videos.

I have to recheck that.

The Insta-Shield (thanks for remembering the name) is not even close to being a homing attack. For one thing, you aren't homing. It was an advanced mechanic and it had nothing to do with the mechanic we are discussing in Sonic 4.

Why use the spindash when it takes three seconds to rev up when you can just gain speed instantly? Why go backwards to set up a running jump when you can just use the homing attack to boost you across? Why aim your jumps over an enemy when you can just use the homing attack to hit him right away? Why fall down from a spring jump to retrieve a item monitor when you can just use the homing attack on it to get it then keep moving forward at full speed? Why run up to a swing when you can just use the homing attack to hit it right away AND make it move faster? Why are you ignoring these completely obvious changes to the fundamentals and just calling it optional?

Again, just to point out that I did not said it was optional.
And so what? What are you complaining about? That the mechanics are different? Well yes they are. I don't see a problem in that. The homing attack makes the game faster? Good. Why not? If you want to explore a certain zone don't use it there. If you want to breeze through, do it.
I get it, it changes the fundamentals. For you that is a bad thing, we all get that. Sadly you haven't really cleared up on why it is a bad thing. All you have been doing is stating how it changes and changes and I supposedly should be considering that to be a bad thing. Why?

What? We all have played at least a dozen games with the homing attack now.

That's like saying we have played hundreds of games where the character jumps.
Name a 2D Sonic game designed around Homing Attack. It was clearly tacked on in Sonic Rush. And in the 3D games it works fine. I never thought one would consider Homing Attack alone a bad thing by itself.

What gives you the authority to say we are not allowed to say it is bad, and you are allowed to say it is good anyways?

Nothing. But did I say you weren't allowed to anything?
I just find stupid that you constantly point out what different and not exactly what's wrong. Neither did I said it was a good thing. I said that being different was good. And it is.

For the rest of that part of your post:
Remind me why change is bad.
I didn't say it was optional.
(see how your arguments are consistently the same?)

"it is pretty pathetic when Game Gear releases like Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Trouble had more inspired art"

Wow that is so different from every other first Sonic level that I don't even.

I was talking different in a gameplay-wise aspect. I don't know why you criticize the art. Every Sonic game has common themes (even Sonic Triple Trouble, could you believe that?)

If I remember right, when the very very first leak (I think back in February) of the game came out you were saying how the controls looked perfect.

I don't recall that really.. But if I did, well I was wrong.. I remember they were floaty and I remember reminding someone that they were alpha. I do not remember my first reaction, but I do know I was freakishly happy a new Sonic game was coming.

Hey look, comments like the ones I have made helped remove the mine cart section for what looks to be probably the best level in the game!

True.
But that was a level that was shit and (as far as I know) we weren't even sure if that level was so be on consoles without motion sensitivity.
Are you trying to say that your comments are in hope of them to change the whole fundamentals of the game (which you can't even be sure nor explain that they are bad)? Good luck.

What have yours done? Fucking nothing.

Instead of being full of yourself, you should recall that I also complained about the minecart level's possibility of being on non-motion sensitive platforms.
So you'll have to explain how my opinion differed from yours on that respect.

Your problem is that you don't even want this game to be released. Your problem is that you are not even quite sure what you want. You just want the same thing it used to be. That isn't happening.

"Take it like a man." haha
There's nothing there to take. I'm liking what I'm seeing of the game.. You're the one who's been complaining lol

~~~~

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 does not do that as much as it should.

Woah, I just went on and on with Sanus on the game being different to it's fundamentals and you're saying it doesn't change as much?
I get it, the levels all feeling different.. I won't comment on that without playing the game. You may or may not be right.

I don't like comparing Sonic to Mario. There's a reason why I love Sonic and hate Mario. Though I agree on this: "Radically changing the series as they have done so much is not good for the series in the long term". That is why Sonic has by far the most demanding fanbase of all. No matter what they do, some group of fans will always be unsatisfied (boo-oo Shadow is not in the game, boo-oo it has homing-attack [the extremes]).

"We do not have to take it if we think we can find more fun with other products or feel the product maybe slightly lacking, we might be paying customers."
Then why should you be here? Of course you are interested in this game. And you know you can potentially have as much fun with it as with any of your examples (regardless of gameplay mechanics).

"Finally, the homing attack is not truly optional"
No, it isn't. I think that some parts of the game force you to use it, and as someone said before, if you had in some other game a magic spell that could help your gameplay wouldn't you use it?

"Sanus does bring an excellent point, it would not have been changed if people like us never complained about it in the first place."
Also true.
Problem is that this time people who are complaining about the homing attack are doing it just because. There is no reason why it should succeed nor why it should fail. Sega is betting on it and are putting work on it. The game is designed around it. There is no reason for it not to work okay.

What they SHOULD get rid of is that "air dash" move. It's just stupid that you can get a cheap burst of speed like that.

Yes!
This is an actual precise complaint that I actually even agree upon.


Some of you just like to complain. Seriously. You just want to do your part on shouting out what in your own mind would be the perfect game. That's fine. We all do it. That's why we are all here discussing and that's why (probably) we'll all end up buying the game, enjoying it throughly and then come back here to complain about some insignificant nuance that we disliked.
I just don't understand why it is normal for some of you to criticize a whole mechanic based on it being different alone!
Unless you present other arguments other than "it's bad because it changes the mechanics and makes other moves less useful" try to actually say what wrong with the change. Why must the change be a bad thing?

[Orta]

Some of you just like to complain.

Some are just blind. What would be Sonic fucking 4 and Sega's biggest release since I don't even know is slowly becoming Sonic Advance in high def. They had a huge chance here and what could be a great game sans the homing attack is slowly becoming a press right to win affair. I would take all of the speed boosters over the homing attack. sigh

[Sega Uranus]

Crackdude, you are really over thinking this. I do not want the same game as it was year and years ago, I do not want a 'perfect' game here, I just want a great one, and I would expect SEGA to make a great one if they were going to make a direct sequel to their biggest game trilogy of all time. If you think what we are getting is great, then fine, I am happy for you. I believe what we see here at very best is just 'good'. And that is not good enough.

The thing you are not seeing though is that the homing attack really does hurt the game because it DOES make pretty much everything Sonic can do pointless, even just running to gain momentum is pointless when you can jump up and press jump again and boost to your top speed right away.

The screenshot you posted of Sonic Triple Trouble kind of proves my point when it comes to everything else too. Of course it looks like other Sonic games because it is in the same series, but outside of the color scheme, almost everything in that single screenshot is exclusive to that one game. That game has gimmicks like the bouncy trees and original designs for badniks with springs on them, not to mention stuff like the water skipping or flying shoes. What does Sonic the Hedgehog 4's Splash Hill Zone have in comparison? Gimmicks stolen from only one zone of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 that have been seen in all 3D releases (also they make no sense to be on grass anyways...), rehashed badniks from earlier releases, uninspired art with nothing creatively new thrown in and stuff like the trees do not even have the same kind of 'art deco' style as the rest of the level was supposedly designed like.

[Sharky]

TA and Joe at it again... oh wait.