Where did it really go wrong in the sega console era

[ROJM]

So sorry I was talking about a console that shipped with a Modem has standard.

I wasn't and you know that. Keep covering your tracks.

SEGA were making massive losses in 1998 and 1999 so money was tight and an issue . Launching a console in the USA and giving the PR Team $100 dollars to push that system and its games for a period of 2 years isn't that much money in the grand scheme.

So with what they had, SOA did brilliant really .

Sega didn't launch the Genesis during the late nineties  did they. And if we focus on your argument by less money then the blame goes on to the incompetence of the management which is a point i always said about the DC era. Because you had two idiotic people in the form of stolar and Green the DC was always doomed to fail in the US. Compare that to the talents of Kalinske and his predecessor Katz who helped make Genesis into a succesful games system and turn Sega into a household name. They both had great software to build their base from but only one of them had the will to make the system they had to launch into a hit. Its worse when you think that the DC had stronger launch titles and a great depth of great titles than the genesis had in its first two years and those bozos still failed.

I've never ever changed my stance on the 32X at all. It has always been a waste of space and a utterly pointless idea imo

Yes you did. Keep trying to blame SOA for its creation and not pinpointing it to SOJ who was ALWAYS responsible for its concept. You then flipflopped on it then changed back. I didn't mention whether you liked the 32x either.

? . Lots of games will get push up to new consoles . Shenmue  Sonic Adv both meant to the Saturn titles . Pikmin III meant to be a Cube title . Story Of Thor II meant to be a Mega Drive title , Kameo meant to be Cube, then Xbox title before ending up on the 360

?Yet most of the 32x games didn't. You only have ports of a 32x on the saturn. No game starting as a 32xtitle appeared as a  saturn game instead.

No you haven't . List the bugs in Saturn VF

Yes i have. And its well known at the time and even now. So keep trolling the fact that Saturn VF was perfect when anyone who played the game and reviewed it at that period in the US criticised the game for being a buggy mess.

No matter the power of the system would can have plenty of crap looking games for it. Gale Racer would have looked out of place on the 32X. But that what happens with new system, new tools to learn and a mega tight development deadline to hit

So you agree then? Finally! But they wouldn't look like a glorified SNES game which is what cosmic carnage looked like on the 32x for whatever reason.

You still can't list the bugs and anyone will know this looks and sounds better

Yes manipulated YT pix prove your point. I've listed it ages ago. So stop trolling and move on.

[Team Andromeda]

Keep covering your tracks.

Go back and read my 1st post in the thread

« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 10:39:00 pm »
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SEGA used Windows CE technology and originally, Microsoft was supposed to supply an online service for SEGA, but they screwed SEGA and decided to make their own console. Peter Moore was in full control of Sega of America and he basically screwed SEGA as well,

So wrong on so many levels . MS provided a OS developement system for a platform, which is what MS  do (being a software corp) and Peter Moore  and SOA did more for the SEGA Dreamcast than Japan and Europe; It was though divsions that let the side down with poor hardware and software sales and it was SOJ that pulled the plug, not SEGA America

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, SEGA was indeed the first console to make online gaming mainstream

The list of on-line games for the DC isn't that big mate , and long before the DC the likes of Saturn was talking console gamers on the Web and the DC wasn't even the 1st console to ship with a Modem as standard : that honour belongs to the Pippin

So in my 1st post in this thread I was on about a console that shipped with a Modem has standard . And that honour does indeed belong with the Pippin.

Sega didn't launch the Genesis during the late nineties

Nope when they did launch the Mega Drive in Japan and America though  - SEGA had no money worries , had plenty of cash in the bank . 1998 SEGA was reported losses over $400 Million and then trying to launch a console in the USA with less just $100 for a couple of years  (when SOA was use to spending $34 million on pushing just one  Sonic game) It wasn't a good place and so what SOA did was really good .

Keep trying to blame SOA for its creation and not pinpointing it to SOJ

Yes that's because it was . SOJ may well have started the idea  but SEGA America developed the final 32X and its custom VDP and that was confirmed by Scot Bayless & Joe Miller when SOJ turned their back on the 32X and Jupiter and went Gun-Ho with the Saturn .

Yet most of the 32x games didn't

That's becasue a lot were rubbish .

No game starting as a 32xtitle appeared as a  saturn game instead

Core's Virtual Golf started life out has a 32X title (where it was called Scotish Open)  , so did their Shellshock . Amok started life out has a 32X title .

But they wouldn't look like a glorified SNES game which is what cosmic carnage looked like on the 32x for whatever reason.

? They were some Saturn games that looked worse than a Mega Drive or Mega CD game . Hell they were some intro's on the Saturn than had smaller windows and more grain in the FMV than Mega CD games .  So no matter the poor of the system if the Team aren't up to it or don't have enough time they'll be poor results .

Yes manipulated YT pix prove your point.

No I just posted the game running on the systems and all in Youtube piss poor format . The difference you seen when playing both games in Scart on ones CRT are even more apparent the Saturn versions kills the 32X for Gfx and Sound . And other than clipping you still can't list an issue or Bug which says it all .

[ROJM]

Go back and read my 1st post in the thread

No need to.

So in my 1st post in this thread I was on about a console that shipped with a Modem has standard . And that honour does indeed belong with the Pippin.

If that was the point of the conversation but it wasn't, It was when modem tech first started and that honour belongs with atari.

Nope when they did launch the Mega Drive in Japan and America though  - SEGA had no money worries , had plenty of cash in the bank . 1998 SEGA was reported losses over $400 Million and then trying to launch a console in the USA with less just $100 for a couple of years  (when SOA was use to spending $34 million on pushing just one  Sonic game) It wasn't a good place and so what SOA did was really good .

Really? Yet they were up against a games Juggernaut like nintendo, the japanese management was balking at the idea of the money needed for certain software and they weren't even sure that they would entice let alone break into the american mainstream. There's no point mentioning what came after the success, the point is that they had to make it succesful in the first place when ALL the odds were against them. You can point out money problem BS all you like but if SOJ didn't think that they couldn't overcome them they wouldn't have bothered with the DC let alone launch it in america in the first place.  

Yes that's because it was . SOJ may well have started the idea  but SEGA America developed the final 32X and its custom VDP and that was confirmed by Scot Bayless & Joe Miller when SOJ turned their back on the 32X and Jupiter and went Gun-Ho with the Saturn .

SOJ started the idea and they developed it and launched it in japan. you can twist history all you like but the simple matter is that SOJ at that time would have followed SOA lead because they were the ones responsible for the majority of sega's profits. Of course they would have had the lead for the 32x because the USA was sega's biggest market at that time. They were meant to take the lead with the saturn until the launch became more succesful than they had predicted for japan. But during that period SOJ was desperate enough to even adopt the SOA campaign style for the 32x and saturn launchs in japan, something that SOJ had hardly done before. So dont give out this 32x nonsense that the americans invented it(as you have claimed) or articles claiming otherwise because there's enough contridictions there as well, that the japanese were never intrested in it(as history contradicts this alone).Your acting like a disgruntled fanboy who blames the wrong people because his fave system didn't become more popular than the previous one. live with it, it happened.Move on for gods sake.

That's becasue a lot were rubbish .

So was many of the saturn titles in its launch phase. But again if ANY of the titles were ever going to be released for saturn from third parties and sega they wouldn't have bothered making it in the first place.

Core's Virtual Golf started life out has a 32X title (where it was called Scotish Open)  , so did their Shellshock . Amok started life out has a 32X title .

Yes that's all the 32x games isn't it. For a majority to exist you need a minority and the majority of titles were never going to come on the saturn even if the 32x never existed.So that hardly proves your point.

? They were some Saturn games that looked worse than a Mega Drive or Mega CD game . Hell they were some intro's on the Saturn than had smaller windows and more grain in the FMV than Mega CD games .  So no matter the poor of the system if the Team aren't up to it or don't have enough time they'll be poor results .

Yes but they would look poor as a saturn title using the saturn's sematics. That's the point. CC looks poor for a 32x title and resembles an early SNES game.

No I just posted the game running on the systems and all in Youtube piss poor format . The difference you seen when playing both games in Scart on ones CRT are even more apparent the Saturn versions kills the 32X for Gfx and Sound . And other than clipping you still can't list an issue or Bug which says it allblah blah blah... .

Excuses excuses....
I have. And i'm not going into that all again. i don't have time to dig over old topics from decades ago just to satisfy you on something most gamers at that time knows all about.

[Team Andromeda]

If that was the point of the conversation

For the last time 'I' was making the point of the 1st console that shipped with a Modern has standard - To which you then tried to be clever and bring Atari and the rest into it . But like 'I' said the Pippin was the 1st console to ship with a Modem has standard.

Yet they were up against a games Juggernaut like nintendo

Well even Nintendo were nothing to the Juggernaut that was SONY and its 100 million selling PS console at the time So to try and take on SONY and Nintendo with next to no market share , making massive losses and push your console and all its games for 2 years with just $100 Million. SEGA America did very well with what it did with the DC.

SOJ started the idea and they developed it and launched it in japan

? Launching an add or console doesn't mean they developed it at all , or next you'll be saying SOA made the Mega CD . SEGA Japan did come up with the 32X , but was dropped when it became very clear the 3DO and Jaguar was no threat to the Mega Drive  but SOA pushed ahead with the 32X . Read the quite telling and very open interviews with the likes of Scot Bayless & Joe Miller in the likes of Retro.

So was many of the saturn titles in its launch phase

Most launch game are (the Mega CD ones were drivel for the most part)

Yes that's all the 32x games isn't it

Well its more than you made out , that's for sure. But there's more I believe Wing War (Wing Arms on the Saturn) started life has a 32X project and there's no doubt a few more too

Yes but they would look poor as a saturn title using the saturn's sematics

Makes no difference and there is no reason on earth why Mega CD FMV should be better than some Saturn titles . There was also some Snes games that had better 2D than some Saturn platform games . It's always go back to the developer (if they are any good) and how much time and resoruces they are given to complete the task .

I have.

You have not and we all know why . Other than clipping there are no bugs in the Saturn version (other than Kage legs being the wrong way around in some versions)

 

 

[ROJM]

For the last time 'I' was making the point of the 1st console that shipped with a Modern has standard - To which you then tried to be clever and bring Atari and the rest into it . But like 'I' said the Pippin was the 1st console to ship with a Modem has standard.

I wasn't being clever i was talking about modem tech, i had always said that, you brought in the pippin nonsense into it. It wasn't like you started the topic about modems in the first place.

Well even Nintendo were nothing to the Juggernaut that was SONY and its 100 million selling PS console at the time So to try and take on SONY and Nintendo with next to no market share , making massive losses and push your console and all its games for 2 years with just $100 Million. SEGA America did very well with what it did with the DC.

Course not but the parallels are the same. The DC and the Genesis launch while some differences had a lot of similarities perhaps in reverse. All i'm saying is that the two individuals who had the harder job had the will to make the genesis into a success and turn Sega into a household name. The DC like the genesis had the software and unlike the genesis had a more easier sell becaue everyone knew who sega was, all they had to fight was their bad publicity and a strong competitor. The genesis guys didn't have a reputation to begin with which made it more the riskier. but they just didn't have the will ,the talent or the smarts to really turn it around. Even though from the reports it seem Sega was beginning to make gains in the US.

? Launching an add or console doesn't mean they developed it at all , or next you'll be saying SOA made the Mega CD . SEGA Japan did come up with the 32X , but was dropped when it became very clear the 3DO and Jaguar was no threat to the Mega Drive  but SOA pushed ahead with the 32X . Read the quite telling and very open interviews with the likes of Scot Bayless & Joe Miller in the likes of Retro.

That comment doesn't make sense. All the hardware add ons came from SOJ alone. Where the hell does that comment come from. Boy are you confused.
I dont need to read it because i lived it. Also the the interviews from latham and a few others which you like to dismiss which says the opposite. That the idea and the system specs were developed by SOJ. So dont give me the add on crap because were not talking about the menacer or the activator which were SOA ideas.

Most launch game are (the Mega CD ones were drivel for the most part)

Then why criticse the 32x for it then? Many 32x games are rare treasures now.

Well its more than you made out , that's for sure. But there's more I believe Wing War (Wing Arms on the Saturn) started life has a 32X project and there's no doubt a few more too

No it isn't. A minority is still a minority and i said majority. Keep up dear chap.

Makes no difference and there is no reason on earth why Mega CD FMV should be better than some Saturn titles . There was also some Snes games that had better 2D than some Saturn platform games . It's always go back to the developer (if they are any good) and how much time and resoruces they are given to complete the task .

Pretty much with why VF1 was terrible.

You have not and we all know why . Other than clipping there are no bugs in the Saturn version (other than Kage legs being the wrong way around in some versions)

I have. You saying and repeating it doesn't changed the fact that i did. I haven't changed my stance on it unlike you who admitted about the bugs and then changed his mind. Most of the magazines in both japan and the US said the same thing. The reaction to the game by the gaming audience at the time was the same. Its you who can't accept that fact not me.

 

 

[TartarusReaper]

I always thought it was due to SEGA West and the main office tearing each other apart, which resulted in the stunting of the already expensive Saturn project which lead to the hastily put together and even more expensive Dreamcast project. They got their crap together, but not soon enough.

[ROJM]

I always thought it was due to SEGA West and the main office tearing each other apart, which resulted in the stunting of the already expensive Saturn project which lead to the hastily put together and even more expensive Dreamcast project. They got their crap together, but not soon enough.

That happened during the Saturn era, not really before but the seeds of that internal fighting that was to come was already in place. But its really a combination of things that fell the saturn, infighting, mismanagement, a strong competitor, company corporate arrogance, fan apathy, consumer alienation, weak marketing and no focus is part of the stew that helped saturn to bomb  in the west.

[Team Andromeda]

I wasn't being clever i was talking about modem tech

Again . The Pippin was the 1st console to ship with one has standard . The 1st console where everything to go-online was included with the system from day 1 - FACT .

The genesis guys didn't have a reputation to begin with which made it more the riskier. but they just didn't have the will ,the talent or the smarts to really turn it around. Even though from the reports it seem Sega was beginning to make gains in the US.

SOA did a great job with the Mega Drive and a even better one with the SEGA CD (given SOJ messed up so bad)  but then SEGA had more money and wasn't selling the Mega Drive at a loss . SEGA in 1998 was making massive losses , making a loss on each DC sold and where development costs with so so much higher Add in the fact that SONY had the 1st console to smash through the 100 million sales (not eben the NES did that)it was an almost impossible task to face , with such limited funds to battle both SONY and Nintendo.

SEGA America did very well with the DC

All the hardware add ons came from SOJ alone

It's all  approved by SEGA Japan . SEGA Japan didn't developer stuff like the SEGA Activator, the Mega Drive 3D glasses, Menacer or even the Saturn Mission Stick . So just because SOJ brought out the Super 32X doesn't mean they developed it or were fully backing it .

Also the the interviews from latham and a few others which you like to dismiss which says the opposite

You do know who Scot Bayless & Joe Miller are ?. They were at the top of the tree for SEGA America R&D  and Joe Miller was the main man for the 32X project .

Then why criticse the 32x for it then

Becuase the system was so utterly pointless and a step backwards in every area be that spec and game deliver method (cart compared to CD) At least the Mega CD was a step forward in terms of CD and spec's over the Mega Drive and more importantly it wasn't going toe to toe with another brand new SEGA system, 32X was and in every area it was a poor man's Saturn.

Why have the 32X when you had the Saturn a far better and more powerful system and a system that had SOJ full support and all its Consumer and Arcade divisions working on projects . The 32X didn't make any sense in 1994 .

A minority is still a minority and i said majority

No you didn't you said 'none'  But there was quite a few .

Pretty much with why VF1 was terrible

Launch games will always have some mirror issues . Other than Clipping VF was Arcade Perfect in gameplay and even Arcade better in terms of sound with better music and far better sound effects than even what the Arcade version could boast  . It was also far closer to the Arcade in terms of the number of polygons compared to the 32X.

And with a bit more time AM#2 went to town with Remix with a game running in higher res than what VF 3 was running in the Arcades

I have.

You never have - other than Clipping . Start to list the rest please

Most of the magazines in both japan and the US said the same thing.

These would be ? . Saturn VF scored better than 32X in SEGA Mag for starters

 

 

[ROJM]

Again . The Pippin was the 1st console to ship with one has standard . The 1st console where everything to go-online was included with the system from day 1 - FACT .

FACT, modem technology was already being used by several systems before someone introduced it to the Pippin. FACT and FACT again.

SOA did a great job with the Mega Drive and a even better one with the SEGA CD (given SOJ messed up so bad)  but then SEGA had more money and wasn't selling the Mega Drive at a loss . SEGA in 1998 was making massive losses , making a loss on each DC sold and where development costs with so so much higher Add in the fact that SONY had the 1st console to smash through the 100 million sales (not eben the NES did that)it was an almost impossible task to face , with such limited funds to battle both SONY and Nintendo.

That's the excuse of a talentless hack. The point is sega was an unknown and there was no guarantee that they would succeed and in a way they nearly didn't. SOA 1998 was full of people that had no idea or real intrest about the company they were working for, too much middl management which still plagues sega today and led by incompetence impotent balding has beens.
 

SEGA America did very well with the DC

Not well enough, that's the point or we all would't be bemoaning the fact that sonic is now a nintendo exclusive.

It's all  approved by SEGA Japan . SEGA Japan didn't developer stuff like the SEGA Activator, the Mega Drive 3D glasses, Menacer or even the Saturn Mission Stick . So just because SOJ brought out the Super 32X doesn't mean they developed it or were fully backing it .

They did develop it and backed it that's the point. And that's always been the point. 32x has never been an SOA idea and never was. The whole thing came from SOJ. Fact.So dont patronise me about giving backing by using the add ons i mentioned against me,SOJ would have been the only part of company capable of building a operable system at that time.

You do know who Scot Bayless & Joe Miller are ?. They were at the top of the tree for SEGA America R&D  and Joe Miller was the main man for the 32X project .

yes and let's see what MR miller actually said about that....

Hideki Sato was right there with us, and I don’t want to rehash history – I certainly don’t want to rewrite it either, because there has been a lot said about it, about what exactly transpired there. Let me just put it this way. At CES (Consumer Electronics Show) – and perhaps we even had a little warning before CES – it became clear that there was a desire for us to take a product that was in the early design stages in Japan. It was a new platform (nobody was codenaming things “Jupiter” then, or even “Mars” at that point), and there was certainly an awareness that Japan had an idea of what they wanted to do with a Genesis platform that had more colors and was able to do 3D… take some of what we learned on the SVP chip – the polygon-pusher chip – and integrate something that was more capable and build a new platform. It was still going to be a 16-bit machine with some limited 32-bit capabilities.
, given all of that, we collectively – those of us on the technical side at SOA and the senior technical representatives that were at the show from Sega of Japan – said “let’s at least talk about alternatives. Let’s at least spend some time exploring the art of the possible,” and we did that. We had several designs, several architectures… several choices. Some were simpler than others, and some were more complex, but they were all generally in the same category of what SOJ wanted to do with the new platform.

One of them was to see if we could leverage the existing Genesis as a base and then add capability to it. Frankly, we had done as much with the Sega CD, an add-on that had started, literally, as a sit-underneath platform, and that added new capability. It added a color layer; it added audio and a bunch of other capabilities, and we sold around six million of those. The installed base for the Genesis at that time was something less than 40 million, so we felt that model had some merit, because it kept our customers from having to discard an existing platform that they had made an investment in already. Certainly, our core customers had made an investment in several titles, several games on that platform.

So we were looking for a way to leverage the best of what we had done and add that capability to something new, and the 32X evolved out of that. It certainly wasn’t a revolt, and it wasn’t a matter of us or me standing up and saying “no, that’s a bad idea.” I don’t think I ever said that… [Laughs]… I don’t believe I ever said to anyone from SOJ who came over with the original idea that it was bad idea because that wasn’t the kind of relationship we had. I had more respect for all of them than that. But, by the end of CES, we collectively came up with something we thought would work better. They thought it was pretty cool and said “this is great. Why don’t you guys help us run with it? Help us figure out how to pull this off.”

It really does sounds that SOJ didn't have the idea, wasn't working with SOA every step of the way and didn't plan it to be what it was supposed to be a bridge gap towards the saturn and extend the genesis lifespan. So try again my plucky chum.

Becuase the system was so utterly pointless and a step backwards in every area be that spec and game deliver method (cart compared to CD) At least the Mega CD was a step forward in terms of CD and spec's over the Mega Drive and more importantly it wasn't going toe to toe with another brand new SEGA system, 32X was and in every area it was a poor man's Saturn.

And it was all SOJ's idea too...

Why have the 32X when you had the Saturn a far better and more powerful system and a system that had SOJ full support and all its Consumer and Arcade divisions working on projects . The 32X didn't make any sense in 1994 .

Awww you still blaming the 32x for messing up the saturn's chances? Why dont you put the blame on where it really desevre to go, SOJ for a creating the 32x and b messing up any chances for letting the saturn continue with proven franchiss that was succesful on the saturn,but oh no we must create a fairy tale about how the saturn was ruined by an add on.

No you didn't you said 'none'  But there was quite a few .

I said majority. You didn't even give out a single bit of proof, been googling have we?

Launch games will always have some mirror issues . Other than Clipping VF was Arcade Perfect in gameplay and even Arcade better in terms of sound with better music and far better sound effects than even what the Arcade version could boast  . It was also far closer to the Arcade in terms of the number of polygons compared to the 32X.

You really are delusional. better than the arcade version? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!