Yo, what if Nintendo bought SEGA?

[Aki-at]

By blemishes I mean that Sammy did not help Sega's quality control what so ever.  If  they had merged with a competent creative company, things would have gone very very differently for them in those bumpy years.  Plus, I understand that Sammy was Sega's first choice.  I also understand that after reviewing the situation, they decided against it.  That was for a reason. 

SEGA's quality control was already in question prior to their merger with Sammy. Sonic Heroes, Billy Hatcher, Nightshade and Virtua Quest was about a few poorly made SEGA titles. If SEGA merged with one of the other parties they were looking at, outside of Microsoft, there is nothing that indicates to me they would be any better at quality control.

And the major reason was the equity ratio, Sammy were looking for a more favourable deal because SEGA were so heavily in debt.

As for the current state of things, I read articles monthly about Sammy's tanking pachinko business.  They may have provided some immediate fiscal relief in 2004, but they are a dying company with no future today.  Seriously, it's in Sega's best interest to abandon ship if possible. 

Which articles are these?

The debate as to what makes a game "Sega-esque" I think is one in part driven by the shift in focus of the gaming industry from Japan to the West.  Sega in the 90's and early 2000s was a remarkably Japanese affair.  There was the odd title like Ecco the Dolphin or Toe Jam & Earl but Japanese-ness was essentially hard-coded into the company's identity.  To see Total War and Football manager as some of modern Sega's top earners is still a hard thing to swallow for many of us.  Rest assured, we'll get there in time.  I think it's just a reflection of the company's sickly state at the moment. 

SEGA's style is too varied to be considered belonging to one culture, especially when characters like Sonic and his world are inspired by American animations and presidents or how Shining Force, Panzer Dragoon and NiGHTS are meant to be inspired by European lore/books/art. Sure they have Japanese-esque franchises from past (Like Sakura Taisen) to present (Yakuza) but nothing to me solely made me feel they were solely Japanese. It probably is a reason why they have consistently failed in their homeland too.

But as I said before, are we really fans of SEGA because they are Japanese or because they make some damn fine games from time to time that we just cannot put down and play?

[Barry the Nomad]

Well from my standpoint, I love SEGA because they make quality, fun, varied games. Really, Japanese has no bearing on my SEGA fandom. When I played Sonic in 1991, my gateway SEGA game, I didn't even know where it came from. Only that I loved the gameplay and wanted more. And since I owned a Genesis to play SEGA games, I had the opportunity to play more SEGA games... Even if I didn't know it. It wasn't til years later that I learned the Mickey Illusion titles, Ghostbusters, Dick Tracy and Quack Shot were all SEGA titles. I didn't get into stuff like Phantasy Star and Virtua Fighter until those titles were considered old, and I was a teen in my "Japan is cool!" Phase. And by that point the Dreamcast was coming and I really went all out with the many, many, Dreamcast titles.

In college, I took a break from games and missed the whole Sammy situation and (thank god) missed out on Sonic 06 through to the 2007 titles. In fact, the last SEGA game I bought new, on release week, was Heroes. And the next SEGA game I boug new, on release week, was Unleashed for PS2. I did buy SEGA games between those games, but not til they dropped in price, and only played Xbox and PS2.

[DJaw]

Nothing against nintendo, but they suck in my honest opinion. No offense to nintendo fans, but you guys suck big ballz as well.

[Sharky]

No offense to nintendo fans, but you guys suck big ballz as well.

No personal attack.

[MadeManG74]

But he said 'no offense'.

[Ben]

It makes no sense. SEGA never had an identity that linked their games between all their teams except the brand name. There really is nothing linking Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Sonic the Hedgehog, Streets of Rage or Shining Force except for the SEGA name and the letter "S" in all their titles.

See, I don't agree with that at all. I'm a big fan of Japanese games and much prefer Japanese game design over Western game design and even that alone sets Sega's in-house games apart from the games they simply publish, which are almost always from Western studios.

But even setting that aside...again, I disagree, dude, I think there's a definite "SEGA" flavor to their games, a definite feeling and something there that really only seems to take place when the games are developed in-house.

I mean, EA could have published Aliens:Colonial Marines and the game probably wouldn't have been any different. But if you asked EA to develop, say, Jet Grind Radio, it would have been a completely different game.

And Skies of Arcadia is not groundbreaking. Its just a very well executed RPG. Just like 7th Dragon apparently seems to be.

I don't think anybody would say that 7th Dragon is anywhere near on par with Skies of Arcadia. Not that I've played 7th Dragon but you're the first person I've ever seen call it its equal.

That is irrelevant. Titles are still being greenlit by SEGA Japan, if SEGA America/Europe feels like they would be failures and thus not willing to bring the titles over, it's their fault.

Well, I mean, okay, but that doesn't really do me much good, does it?

Otherwise the effects in the long run were negligible. Smilebit was merged with Amusement Vision and made Yakuza,

Smilebit playing 2nd fiddle on the Yakuza series is not really where I'd want them to be....I'd much rather have had them developing something as awesome as JGR or some other crazy, artistic, original content. Don't know about you.

Whilst Overworks went on to make Valkyria Chronicles series, 7th Dragon series and Shining Blade.

Valkyria Chronicles is probably (though I haven't had the chance to play it, PS3-exclusive as it is) Sega's best in-house effort in years and definitely their highest regarded. It's unfortunate that Overworks hadn't been given the budget to stick to consoles.

Anyway I should clarify that of course a game doesn't have to be Japanese or developed in-house to be a "Sega game." Hell Yeah I enjoyed much like a Sega game, and of course going back as a kid I loved games like Toejam and Earl.

That said, I'm referring to it mainly in a business sense. Picking up a game from an outside studio and publishing it is of course less expensive than developing it in-house, but some of us are a fan of in-house Sega games, we're fans of certain Sega developers, and yeah, their games do have a style and they have the benefit of Sega's long history in the industry. It's unfortunate that in-house Sega's role, including artistic powerhouses like Smilebit, seems to be now restricted to developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.

Much as I enjoyed Hell Yeah, its biggest weakness was the bland platforming and level design....things that likely would have been loads better if the game had been developed in-house, with the expertise Sega's in-house studios have with 2D platforming. (Yes I know Iizuka "advised" on the game but that's not a huge role.)

[Trippled]

Yeah, as a whole Sega just feel more materialized now.

Whatever happened to games like ChuChu Rocket, Samba de Amigo, Nights and Burning Rangers from Sonic Team? Done. Instead they are worked like a Horse to create to create annual Sonic games, with unfitting Ideas squashed in, that could have been a different game.
They merged with United Game Artists, the ones that made the creative Music games. They went, the ones that stayed are neglected to licenced Anime Rythum games (Hatsune Miku).
Original titles thankfully are there like Pole's Big Adventure, Feel the Magic 1/2 and Rythum Thief, but yeah, but are on Handhelds.
Smilebit and Amusment Vision made one hit game, critically and financially, Yakuza, and then executives said: "Oh just release that yearly, buttloads of Money!". Same with Monkey Ball.
Another result is not as much freedom...AM Arcade Divisions don't create much original things anymore, just updates and racing and gun games, which aren't brought to consoles anymore, after Sega consoles died.
RPG's are limited to Handhelds also, after VC. And some of those RPG's are rather lame looking Otaku RPG's (exception being the first 7th Dragon)

But you know, writing all that, SEGA isn't so bad. They feel more like the Genesis Days in output rather than the Dreamcast and Saturn Era of things. I just wish they made more Action games, they had Shinobi as a try to bring they're Sidescrollers into 3d, but then it stopped.

developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.

Where do you get that Smilebits are only developed Mini-games in Yakuza? They could have been very much involved in the World-building (after all both JSR and Yakuza involve in being in a city), and Art Director of JSR also works on Yakuza.
I agree on everything else tough.

One thing that could have huge potential, is the digital space, creating crazy, artistic games on there from Sega's In-house studios would be perfect.

[Nameless 24]

Not to be the devil's advocate, but why would you not support SEGA if they were bought by Nintendo?

Are you fearful of their creative freedom? or is it just the old fanboy debate that it wouldn't work?

I wouldn't like them being owned by Nintendo either (for my own reasons mind), but Nintendo are pretty capable of not ruining SEGA then say...Microsoft, Sony or Activision....yes, Sonic would be exploited under Nintendo, but I would think that Nintendo would try and give a few of SEGA's old franchises a chance.

Nintendo, despite their blockbusters....do have a few holes in their armour...and those holes are from their lack of RPG, On-Rails Shooter and perhaps their experimental genres.

Despite everything, I can see Nintendo treating the NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon franchises very well, and I don't say this lightly either...those two franchises just seem to fit Nintendo's card and I could see Panzer Dragoon's universe expanded in this unique setting like they have done so with Metroid and make it a really enjoyable experience under them.

I say NiGHTS as it's something Miyamoto wanted to do if he had thought of it, and I bet he would take on the challenge of making it SEGA's Legend of Zelda series...I doubt he'd make much changes from the original, since he likes keeping Zelda close to it's roots (despite the criticism of this).

That's my thoughts on it anyway, I know you may disagree with me on it, but I wouldn't see it as the end of SEGA if they ever did go under Nintendo (which I doubt anyway), I trust Nintendo out of most Japanese devs but I do agree that SEGA would lose most of their unique flavour to the fans if they did get bought out.

Perhaps SEGA could renovate the F-Zero franchise again, it needs a new game after all.

[Randroid]

I wouldn't like them being owned by Nintendo either (for my own reasons mind), but Nintendo are pretty capable of not ruining SEGA then say...Microsoft, Sony or Activision

Oh god, what a nightmare that would be. Either of those companies mentioned.

[Nameless 24]

Oh god, what a nightmare that would be. Either of those companies mentioned.

I think someone should make a youtube of waking up to some nightmare of SEGA being owned by MS, Sony or Activision.

Under MS: SEGA would certainly be dead by MS and forced to make Kinect only games.

Under Sony: SEGA would probably have no money to make even a Sonic title under Sony, never-mind the other franchises.

Under Activision: MAKE SONIC! OR WE WILL TAKE YOUR IPS AND MAKE SONIC WITH A WESTERN DEV!

[ROJM]

Sega has always been in the middle, they have never been too Japanese or too American, this is probably due to their origins from being an anglo american company that became Japanese.

But that in itself created a problem for Sega in the console market. They never created games that appealed to the average Japanese consumer. Sure, their arcades appealed to them (technically a different audience) but not the console games for various reasons. The only time Sega really became japan centric in their games(theme and design) was during the Saturn era, when they hit the right note that got the japanese consumer en mass to notice their products.

Also what people need to remember is that the old Sega of America isn't a real subsidary,it was what use to be the remants of Sega enterprise when the spilt the company back in the early eighties. The american staff including the first CEO David Rosen moved Sega into america while the japanese staff took over the japanese operations. And from what happned during the Genesis era, they SOA were in effect a company doing what SOJ wasn't able to do, and they were also starting to atrack and develop a strong game designer and programming talent. Technically a lot of things we gamers take granted today started thanks to the actions of SOA. But they are part of the story and not the whole story. And that's the point. Sega isn't just japanese nor american. Its both part of their makeup.

So to say Sega is just about japanese game design is nonsense. Sega up to the mid seventies was using american game designers and style, after that the japanese took over but they also continued in western game design. You then add the second party developers and you have a rich variety of games all held under one banner and all meant to be innovative or excite.Sonic may have started in japan but it was americans that made the character popular and also helped in the design of the subsequent titles. SONIC CD(the last true sonic team made Sonic game) and SONIC 2 is both a perfect example of japanese game developent and western game development.

So i wouldn't dismiss the sega western made titles, neither would SOJ, who still keeps whoring out ECCO in repackaged games up to this very day.

[Ben]

Where do you get that Smilebits are only developed Mini-games in Yakuza? They could have been very much involved in the World-building (after all both JSR and Yakuza involve in being in a city), and Art Director of JSR also works on Yakuza.
I agree on everything else tough.

It seems to me (though if anyone has info stating otherwise) Amusement Vision (well, now the Yakuza Studio....which alone says a lot,  ) is the A-team, the main developers of the game, the ones with the most say and the key roles, while the Smilebit staff working on the game are more in an assist position. Could be wrong, although Amusement Vision were always the main studio credited, not Smilebit.

Anyway, certainly things would change for the worse in some ways with a Nintendo buyout. Sega developers would undoubtedly be asked to assist on Nintendo franchises, and yes, Nintendo would also likely involve Sega in helping to create some "family-friendly" games. That said, though, Nintendo's also looking to appeal more to core gamers as well, so Sega would also be used for that purpose.

Some things would get worse, yes, in the event of a Nintendo buyout. That said, I think almost anything's better than where Sega is now....well, except an Activision buyout, lol.

[Aki-at]

See, I don't agree with that at all. I'm a big fan of Japanese games and much prefer Japanese game design over Western game design and even that alone sets Sega's in-house games apart from the games they simply publish, which are almost always from Western studios.

What is this Japanese game design? Enlighten me on it because when I see SEGA games, from past to present, they almost always use to do the reverse of how someone becomes successful in Japan. And it shows with their game sales.

But even setting that aside...again, I disagree, dude, I think there's a definite "SEGA" flavor to their games, a definite feeling and something there that really only seems to take place when the games are developed in-house.

I mean, EA could have published Aliens:Colonial Marines and the game probably wouldn't have been any different. But if you asked EA to develop, say, Jet Grind Radio, it would have been a completely different game.

And if you asked AM2 to develop it would also be quite different. Infact any team would ensure it would be quite different, so when you have these difference between their studios and then within those small studios you have different producers, the SEGA style is not very consistent.

I don't think anybody would say that 7th Dragon is anywhere near on par with Skies of Arcadia. Not that I've played 7th Dragon but you're the first person I've ever seen call it its equal.

I did not call it it's equal, I said 7th Dragon apparently is like Skies of Arcadia "Very well executed RPG" and coming from the woman who made Skies of Arcadia and a big force in the original Phantasy Star, I'm willing to bet Kodama has done a great job on it too.

Well, I mean, okay, but that doesn't really do me much good, does it?

But the point is SEGA Japan still greenlights games and the independence they give to SEGA Europe and America is what is hindering it's release.

Valkyria Chronicles is probably (though I haven't had the chance to play it, PS3-exclusive as it is) Sega's best in-house effort in years and definitely their highest regarded. It's unfortunate that Overworks hadn't been given the budget to stick to consoles.

It has nothing to do with budget but with what Japan prefers. They prefer handhelds so that is where SEGA aimed the series. Are you going to assert that Sonic Team has been given a limited budget because Phantasy Star has been limited to handhelds until PSO2? It was not.

Anyway I should clarify that of course a game doesn't have to be Japanese or developed in-house to be a "Sega game." Hell Yeah I enjoyed much like a Sega game, and of course going back as a kid I loved games like Toejam and Earl.

If you are going to have an inconsistent set of rule on what makes a SEGA game a SEGA game than I see no point on not considering them all SEGA games as long as SEGA funds it.

Smilebit playing 2nd fiddle on the Yakuza series is not really where I'd want them to be....I'd much rather have had them developing something as awesome as JGR or some other crazy, artistic, original content. Don't know about you.

That said, I'm referring to it mainly in a business sense. Picking up a game from an outside studio and publishing it is of course less expensive than developing it in-house, but some of us are a fan of in-house Sega games, we're fans of certain Sega developers, and yeah, their games do have a style and they have the benefit of Sega's long history in the industry. It's unfortunate that in-house Sega's role, including artistic powerhouses like Smilebit, seems to be now restricted to developing lame mini-games within the Yakuza series, Sonic, or stuck working on handheld systems, or, even worse, not having their games localized.

See I grouped this together because this part makes me question what you know in regards to the restructuring nor what you are talking about in regards of video companies themselves?

Did you think that everyone from Smilebit got demoted and sent to the lower depths of Amusement Vision, Nagoshi manically laughing and whipping them all to make minigames and hostess games solely? Whilst GonGon guards the main entrance so no one can escape? And if they do their are snipes in SEGA's courtyards all mined by MeeMee?!

No, they mix, even prior to the Sammy merger and people get replaced. Their are people from Ico who went on to work on Panzer Dragoon Orta. But let me just point you to some significant people at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio who are now in high positions themselves.

Jun Orihara - just a merely planner on Jet Set Radio, he went on to become the director of Yakuza 4 and still works at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio.
Outa Sano - A clear example of why it's silly to think a team stays the same. Started working with Miz at United Game Artist, moved to Smilebit to work on JSR (Senior Programmer) Panzer Dragoon Orta and JSRF before moving with Iizuka to Sonic Team USA, worked on a few disasters. Was programming director for Sonic Generations.
Masayoshi Yokoyama - You have probably heard of this chap, he was the senior planner for JSR. He now writes the storyline for the Yakuza series, starting with Yakuza 3.
Masayoshi Kikuchi - The actual director of Jet Set Radio is now the series producer for Yakuza. Not exactly second fiddle, is he?

I also disagree with working on handheld games as being a sad fate. In Japan handheld is king, so why is it odd if they are making handheld only titles? Do not see what is wrong with lack of localization, Kenzan has not been localized but that does not mean that Nagoshi is not SEGA's top dog.

Much as I enjoyed Hell Yeah, its biggest weakness was the bland platforming and level design....things that likely would have been loads better if the game had been developed in-house, with the expertise Sega's in-house studios have with 2D platforming. (Yes I know Iizuka "advised" on the game but that's not a huge role.)

SEGA games have been poor/bland before. This is not something that an inhouse development would fix, it depends on who the game was handed too.

[Barry the Nomad]

Ryuta Ueda - Art director for JSR, went on to be lead designer/director for the first two Yakuza titles (Aki could probably name his exact titles for both games) and he went on to direct (and write and design) Rise of Nightmares. I know Rise of Nightmares has that negative Kinect stigma, but like my review said, it was a fun arcade-like title with some really cool bosses, tense moments and really was SEGA allowing a key SmileBit member to make a crazy, risky, original game. Which is exactly what it ended up being. Not perfect, but it did remind me of titles like GunValkyrie.

[Aki-at]

I do believe he is working on a new game. Not sure if it was Demon Tribe or a new title altogether, that Famitsu article seems to have caused quite a bit of confusion.