Yo, what if Nintendo bought SEGA?

[STORM!]

  Aki and ROJM are my favorites 

 I buy Nintendo stuff, but still hating them 

 If Nintendo bought Sega, they will only make sequels to Sonic and "maybe" Virtua Fighter ONLY!

 Arcades and mobile telephone games, NEVERMORE!


 End.

[Ben]

What is this Japanese game design? Enlighten me on it because when I see SEGA games, from past to present, they almost always use to do the reverse of how someone becomes successful in Japan. And it shows with their game sales.

Games like Sega's are not developed in the West. Honestly man you can write essays on the topic of Western vs Japanese game development and philosophy and I'm just not in the mood for that right now, lol. You can read up on it.

And if you asked AM2 to develop it would also be quite different. Infact any team would ensure it would be quite different, so when you have these difference between their studios and then within those small studios you have different producers, the SEGA style is not very consistent.

It's not very "consistent" but I don't see how you can claim to be a Sega fan and say there's nothing distinct about their games.

I did not call it it's equal, I said 7th Dragon apparently is like Skies of Arcadia "Very well executed RPG" and coming from the woman who made Skies of Arcadia and a big force in the original Phantasy Star, I'm willing to bet Kodama has done a great job on it too.

Game was co-developed by Overworks and Imageepoch. I'm not sure who did what in its development, but imageepoch did a fairly terrible job on Arc Rise Fantasia, so I dunno. I'm skeptical.

It has nothing to do with budget but with what Japan prefers. They prefer handhelds so that is where SEGA aimed the series. Are you going to assert that Sonic Team has been given a limited budget because Phantasy Star has been limited to handhelds until PSO2? It was not.

A fair point, I guess, though console RPGs such as the Tales games seem to have no problems selling.

Did you think that everyone from Smilebit got demoted and sent to the lower depths of Amusement Vision, Nagoshi manically laughing and whipping them all to make minigames and hostess games solely? Whilst GonGon guards the main entrance so no one can escape? And if they do their are snipes in SEGA's courtyards all mined by MeeMee?!

haha well generally speaking, yes. Either way, I suppose my point is that breaking up a team is never a great thing for their sense of creativity or dynamic.

Jun Orihara - just a merely planner on Jet Set Radio, he went on to become the director of Yakuza 4 and still works at Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio.
Outa Sano - A clear example of why it's silly to think a team stays the same. Started working with Miz at United Game Artist, moved to Smilebit to work on JSR (Senior Programmer) Panzer Dragoon Orta and JSRF before moving with Iizuka to Sonic Team USA, worked on a few disasters. Was programming director for Sonic Generations.
Masayoshi Yokoyama - You have probably heard of this chap, he was the senior planner for JSR. He now writes the storyline for the Yakuza series, starting with Yakuza 3.
Masayoshi Kikuchi - The actual director of Jet Set Radio is now the series producer for Yakuza. Not exactly second fiddle, is he?

Fair enough, though you're talking about individuals. Invidivuals move around quite a lot, but entire teams being disassembled is a very different thing.

I also disagree with working on handheld games as being a sad fate. In Japan handheld is king, so why is it odd if they are making handheld only titles? Do not see what is wrong with lack of localization, Kenzan has not been localized but that does not mean that Nagoshi is not SEGA's top dog.

For now. We'll see what happens to his ability to create non-Yakuza games after the bombing of Binary Domain.

I do believe he is working on a new game.

It's a shame it's without the rest of his team. I definitely do wish him the best of luck.

SEGA games have been poor/bland before. This is not something that an inhouse development would fix, it depends on who the game was handed too.

lol well I'm not talking about it being "handed to" anyone, I'm talking about a studio dreaming up a concept and following it through.

[JohnOfRage]

I would lose all respect for SEGA =[. Hope this never happens!!!

[Aki-at]

Games like Sega's are not developed in the West. Honestly man you can write essays on the topic of Western vs Japanese game development and philosophy and I'm just not in the mood for that right now, lol. You can read up on it.

As I said, point it out.

SEGA's game design is not known to be Japanese, they hardly appeal to that demograph.

It's not very "consistent" but I don't see how you can claim to be a Sega fan and say there's nothing distinct about their games.

Because there is not. All the development studios all have different style and within those development studios their development teams all have their own styles. If you cannot define the style with any set rule then its very difficult to argue it even exists.

Game was co-developed by Overworks and Imageepoch. I'm not sure who did what in its development, but imageepoch did a fairly terrible job on Arc Rise Fantasia, so I dunno. I'm skeptical.

And again, it apparently seems to have been received well by Japanese fans. For once the Overworks team is actually enjoying a tiny bit of success, Shinobi excluding.

haha well generally speaking, yes. Either way, I suppose my point is that breaking up a team is never a great thing for their sense of creativity or dynamic.

The team was consistently being shifted and moved around prior to the merger. This occurred at SEGA regardless of the merger. They now hold various positions within SEGA, some of them quite high so it is hardly the second fiddle you claimed it to be.

Now the team members that work in Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio actually have games that sell and hold high critical acclaim in Japan itself.

Fair enough, though you're talking about individuals. Invidivuals move around quite a lot, but entire teams being disassembled is a very different thing.

They were not disassembled. They were merged with Amusement Vision which considering how well Yakuza turned out, was not too bad.

For now. We'll see what happens to his ability to create non-Yakuza games after the bombing of Binary Domain.

The bombing of his game will ensure SEGA will not develop many new IPs at all, I do not see how this is very surprising given how the market has perceived new IPs these past few years. But the point was a game being localized does not mean a lack of respect, it means SEGA America or Europe believe there is a difficulty in making it a marketable title.

It's a shame it's without the rest of his team. I definitely do wish him the best of luck.

They were never his team, he is associated closer to Team Andromeda than the Jet Set Radio team.

lol well I'm not talking about it being "handed to" anyone, I'm talking about a studio dreaming up a concept and following it through.

SEGA has dreamt up some fairly terrible concepts too though, AM2 even has two bad games to their name.

[Ben]

As I said, point it out.

SEGA's game design is not known to be Japanese, they hardly appeal to that demograph.

Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.

All the development studios all have different style and within those development studios their development teams all have their own styles. If you cannot define the style with any set rule then its very difficult to argue it even exists.

Yes but each development studio has their own style and during the Genesis-DC days they all consisently released artistic and very creative efforts.

Now the team members that work in Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio actually have games that sell and hold high critical acclaim in Japan itself.

Sucks that they're stuck in the most un-innovative franchise possible.

SEGA has dreamt up some fairly terrible concepts too though, AM2 even has two bad games to their name.

Well if you make risky games of course you're going to have some that don't work out, but you can't deny how amazing many of their titles have been.

[Barry the Nomad]

Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.

Erm... no. I'd say that arcade-style games are very much a US invention that the Japanese took to early on, and even then it wasn't the Japanese themselves that founded the early gaming companies. First coin-op arcade game: Galaxy Game at Stanford University (California) in 1971. Atari (US company) releases pong in '72. Taito releases their first arcade game Astro Race, which is a copy of Atari's own Space Race. Even then, Taito (a company in Japan) was founded by a Russian Jew. SEGA's early arcade games were Atari clones, like Pong Tron. Heck, from my findings many of SEGA's early arcade games were developed by a company called Gremlin based out of San Diego, California. The first "original" SEGA arcade game that looks to not be an Atari clone is Fonz, which is based on the US show Happy Days.

And we all know how big Atari was in the Arcades in the years that followed. My point is, the Japanese may have embraced and helped evolve arcade games, but in no way are "arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese". If anything, arcade-style games are by their very nature are a western invention.

---

As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).

If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.

[Nameless 24]

As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).

If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.

This is how I feel about Ghibli films too...some of the stuff they make appear Japanese, but the setting of their stories feel European to me....even when they have based some of their films on our novels like The Borrowers and Howl's Moving Castle, they blend that Japanese style they have, yet show a multi cultural aspect in their films.

To me, SEGA's always been about making their games that appeal to everyone! If we are going to speak strictly Japanese, I would vote for any male pandering, panty shots, nose bleeds...kind of extremist stuff they put into their games these days...because SEGA, as well as every other respectable Japanese company, only put in their flavour at a very tolerable level.

Yes, you can tell the games are made from Japan, but the appeal of most of their games comes from multicultural aspects of our planet. Even if you look at Final Fantasy, an RPG known as Japanese, most of the spells and summons in the game are from myths, superstitions and even the characters all appear in different shapes and sizes from Europe, America, Australia and the Middle East...if anything, I haven't really seen many distinctive Japanese characters in many of their games! (Final Fantasy X is definitely Japanese/Thailand/China influenced)

We all see SEGA as Japanese due to most of their historical aspects coming from their country, but we all know that SEGA made it big in the west because of SEGA of America (no matter how much the Japanese deny this....their best sales and days were from American influence and strategy...I doubt they'd have been a force if they disregarded the President and continued to fight for that niche market with SNK).

[Barry the Nomad]

I'd say, in this Japan vs. West talk, that for me that SEGA style is very much what Aki has said: variety. You can't peg SEGA down to one style, and therein is the SEGA style. I would also say the SEGA style is originality.

Only SEGA can give us cartoonishly cute Sonic games, trippy NiGHTS, sci-fi fantasy Phantasy Star, hardcore east meets west Shinobi, funky graffiti inspired JSR, Sakura Wars, Panzer Dragoon, Daytona... the list goes on. All of these are SEGA, but no two are exactly alike. That is why I love All-Stars Transformed so much, it really nails this variety. Just look at the cast roster image of all the racers in ASR, what an eclectic mix!



I would say a large contributor to this style of uniqueness is the fact that SEGA is both Western and Japanese. Sometimes games contain influences from both regions (Shinobi, Sonic, Daytona, HotD) other times they remain rather exclusive to influences from one (Ecco is very Western feeling to me, as is TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War)(JSR, Sakura Taisen, Phantasy Star) feel Japanese. Yet, even then, there are elements of the other like I mentioned with JSR.

---

That's why I love SEGA. You could only play SEGA games for the rest of your life and you'd get such a great amount of variety, and it never would feel samey or stale.

[ROJM]

Erm... no. I'd say that arcade-style games are very much a US invention that the Japanese took to early on, and even then it wasn't the Japanese themselves that founded the early gaming companies. First coin-op arcade game: Galaxy Game at Stanford University (California) in 1971. Atari (US company) releases pong in '72. Taito releases their first arcade game Astro Race, which is a copy of Atari's own Space Race. Even then, Taito (a company in Japan) was founded by a Russian Jew. SEGA's early arcade games were Atari clones, like Pong Tron. Heck, from my findings many of SEGA's early arcade games were developed by a company called Gremlin based out of San Diego, California. The first "original" SEGA arcade game that looks to not be an Atari clone is Fonz, which is based on the US show Happy Days.

And we all know how big Atari was in the Arcades in the years that followed. My point is, the Japanese may have embraced and helped evolve arcade games, but in no way are "arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese". If anything, arcade-style games are by their very nature are a western invention.

---

As for JSR, while it is very much a product of Japan, I disagree that it is 100% of Japan. Eric Haze, NYC graffiti artist, was called upon to assist in the art design of the game (graffiti, logo, etc) and some of the music tracks were from artists outside Japan (Richard Jaques, The Reps, JSRF had even more non-JP artists). One could also argue that the Japanese youth culture that the game was influenced by was in turn influenced by music styles from outside Japan (rock, rap, hip-hop, house).

If anything, JSR is a patchwork of cultural influences.

Fonz wasn't Sega's original arcade game, that was PERISCOPE back in the sixties and other titles predate Fonz in the seventies like KILLER SHARK,which was immortilised in the movie Jaws.
Gremlin was just in a joint publishing deal with Sega which started during the early eighties. But non atari influenced Sega game? according to Atari any game going left to right on screen is their patent.

But yes about the other arcade/video game companies, since i said this before i'll say it again but with more emphasis because of the actions of a certain David Rosen who was the first CEO of Sega, there wouldn't be a japanese arcade industry let alone a gaming one since according to numourous articles he's credited as being the founder of what became the japanese arcade industry. And since Sega was the company he started that just goes to show how much more important Sega actually is.

JSR i'd say is a japanese take on a western culture but with an added twist, I dont think the developers had to look far beyond tokyo to get their inspiration for this title unlike the games of the past that had to use western ideas for their games. Probably due to how the global village has become so small even back in the late nineties to early noughties.

Sega to me has always been strongest when the japnese development teams are let loose to do their thing with the added quirkiness of the western divisions. Weve seen this blend perfectly with the Genesis and to a smaller extent with the DC. But when one or both divisions are not strong or not in a perfect balance, the entire company suffers. Which is what were seeing now.

[Radrappy]

I'd say, in this Japan vs. West talk, that for me that SEGA style is very much what Aki has said: variety. You can't peg SEGA down to one style, and therein is the SEGA style. I would also say the SEGA style is originality.

Only SEGA can give us cartoonishly cute Sonic games, trippy NiGHTS, sci-fi fantasy Phantasy Star, hardcore east meets west Shinobi, funky graffiti inspired JSR, Sakura Wars, Panzer Dragoon, Daytona... the list goes on. All of these are SEGA, but no two are exactly alike. That is why I love All-Stars Transformed so much, it really nails this variety. Just look at the cast roster image of all the racers in ASR, what an eclectic mix!



I would say a large contributor to this style of uniqueness is the fact that SEGA is both Western and Japanese. Sometimes games contain influences from both regions (Shinobi, Sonic, Daytona, HotD) other times they remain rather exclusive to influences from one (Ecco is very Western feeling to me, as is TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War)(JSR, Sakura Taisen, Phantasy Star) feel Japanese. Yet, even then, there are elements of the other like I mentioned with JSR.

---

That's why I love SEGA. You could only play SEGA games for the rest of your life and you'd get such a great amount of variety, and it never would feel samey or stale.

You do realize that in the picture above, 100% of those characters are Japanese made?  Like, not ONE is from a wester developed franchise.  You guys can fuss and fume all you want about sega not having a Japanese foundation but its simply not true.

[Barry the Nomad]

HA! You think only the Japanese had a say in the creation of these characters? Check out Sonic's history, he had a mom and she was American.

Even so, the picture I shared was mainly done to show the variety in terms of characters and their respective games. Not the East/West mix I'm also talking about, which I also noted with Western creations like Ecco, TJ&E, Hell Yeah, Football Manager, Total War. There were also the Sega Technical Institute games Kid Chameleon, Comix Zone, The Ooze and not to mention Sonic Adventure 2 which was from Sonic Team USA.

[Aki-at]

Arcade-style games are by their very nature Japanese. You don't see games like that coming from Western studios. That's only one aspect of Sega's games that are Japanese but also the emphasis on quirkiness, the focus on art direction vs technical prowess is very Japanese, the hold to various traditions....games like JSR are not Western.

As Barry has explained, arcade style games are not Japanese but originally American.

SEGA's quirkiness exists only in a select few of their titles. For every Space Channel 5 I can point out a Afterburner, a Hang-On... For every Samba De Amigo I can point out a Shinobi, a Golden Axe etc

The focus on art direction is also done by plenty of American developers. Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction. Furthermore SEGA's technical prowess in games is typical for console makers which was SEGA for the longest time, this is not a Japanese trait but a belief that most developers push for.
 

Yes but each development studio has their own style and during the Genesis-DC days they all consisently released artistic and very creative efforts.

Using this I could easily say Nintendo has the SEGA style, I could say Level 5 has the SEGA style and so does Double Fine Productions. There is nothing to indicate this SEGA style exists.

Sucks that they're stuck in the most un-innovative franchise possible.

Sucks for you but not for me.

Well if you make risky games of course you're going to have some that don't work out, but you can't deny how amazing many of their titles have been.

I am not denying it, there just is nothing to suggest Hell Yeah, which was significantly changed by SEGA themselves, would have been better or worse.

[Radrappy]

The focus on art direction is also done by plenty of American developers. Do not tell me games like Halo, Monkey Island, Psychonauts or Grim Fandango did not have good art direction. Furthermore SEGA's technical prowess in games is typical for console makers which was SEGA for the longest time, this is not a Japanese trait but a belief that most developers push for.
 

no, but the titles you have listed have a distinctly western art direction.  Sega games have for the most part work within a specific Japanese aesthetic(obviously that is changing, which is why we are even having this discussion).  Even Binary Domain and Vanquish fall in this category.  Not only visually, but gameplay wise as well.  This is not a difficult concept to accept. 

[MadeManG74]

Hey n-Sega, do you think Katana's are superior to European swords as well?

[Randroid]

A lot of interesting points here.

It's funny when you think of it, but true Japanese "inventions" are rare. All industries for which the Japanese are credited for their quality are usually appropriations. I don't think this diminishes them in any way. As Barry pointed out, Sega and by extension the Japanese, have originality in spades and it shows.

With Sega, a BIG part of what defines them to me is Speed. Speed of play and speed of thought required to play/master.

Every genre and generation they dip into they seem to just force speed as a vital play mechanic. I personally can't get enough of it. Heck even when they took over F-Zero, a nintendo franchise, they dialed up the speed and it then seemed so natural for an F-Zero game to become a Sega title.

That is also, why I found the Sega gamer to be a bit more clever than your typical Nes fanboy. Sega does almost everything at a quicker pace and their gamers reflect that.

Also, Sega has a robot fetish that I like (that would go away fast under any other publisher). Shooters with robots, fighters with robots, RPGs with robots, platformers with robots as the main enemies. It a theme that feels natural under Sega. I can easily imagine Vanquish being an extension of the Binary Domain universe, for example.