Author Topic: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.  (Read 27793 times)

Offline pcm92

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2013, 12:07:24 pm »
When it comes to it. Morality was technically invented by us when we evolved. Animals have no morality, but they have no guilt or malice either...they attack, they kill, they feed, all just to survive and breed.

Pigs have closer DNA to us than primates or fish. We still could not have evolved from any animal because of two questions.

1. Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?
2. Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?

I'm not trying to make you believe in anything else. Your belief is your preference. It's just that I don't know what would answer those questions.

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2013, 01:25:27 pm »
Pigs have closer DNA to us than primates or fish. We still could not have evolved from any animal because of two questions.

1. Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?
2. Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?

I'm not trying to make you believe in anything else. Your belief is your preference. It's just that I don't know what would answer those questions.

It is very easy to get answers to these questions. Just do a little research. Here is what five minutes of research found:

The pig statistic is misleading. Give this a read: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/05/03/2887206.htm

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"If we compare really closely related species, like a human and chimpanzee, we can still see the similarity between these rapidly changing sequences. If you move further away to the more distantly related pig, so many changes in the DNA will have occurred that it is no longer possible to recognise that the sequences were ever similar.

"Depending upon what it is that you are comparing you can say 'Yes, there's a very high degree of similarity, for example between a human and a pig protein coding sequence', but if you compare rapidly evolving non-coding sequences from a similar location in the genome, you may not be able to recognise any similarity at all. This means that blanket comparisons of all DNA sequences between species are not very meaningful."

As for the apes question:

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If humans evolved from apes then why are there still apes?   

Humans did not evolve from present-day apes. Rather, humans and apes share a common ancestor that gave rise to both. This common ancestor, although not identical to modern apes, was almost certainly more apelike than humanlike in appearance and behavior. At some point -- scientists estimate that between 5 and 8 million years ago -- this species diverged into two distinct lineages, one of which were the hominids, or humanlike species, and the other ultimately evolved into the African great ape species living today.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat03.html

---

Creationism is bullshit. While it can be said that it is a theory, just as evolution is a theory, difference is evolution can back information up with science. Not everything related to evolution can be explained, but that is the whole reason scientific study exists. To constantly discover and expand on ideas.

I have yet to hear any convincing evidence for creationism. Mainly all I hear is elaborate theories with little basis in reality, often ignoring those who refute and debunk it. Then creationists throw out this simplistic questions, like "how come everything is so well suited for me?" or "why do we exist with apes if we are from them?" Honestly, the questions sound like something you'd hear from a five year old.

Creationism is about as much a theory as me stating that the universe was created by a flying spaghetti monster.

Offline pcm92

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2013, 03:28:40 pm »
^ That's also an opinion. It would be impossible to actually know how any of that stuff was actually created, unless you were there. The same goes with any religious belief. Saying that other religious beliefs are "dumb" or "stupid" is not really going to help the argument whatsoever. I guess one of the big reasons for Christians dying off in the U.S. is because they just don't stand up for their beliefs as much as atheists. I also do not understand why atheists think it is amusing to prove that other religions are wrong, if religion does not even matter to them.

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2013, 03:50:04 pm »
Oh for fucks sake dude. I answered your simple questions about why we coexist with apes and the pig DNA thing and you wave away the answers because they are "opinion"? I guess you just can't grasp simple scientific concepts. Does water and air confuse you too? I'd explain those things, but my answers would probably be "opinion" as well. "Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen? How can I know if that is true if I'm not there?"

It's just such a backwards stance to take when confronted with answers. And no, religion is not an answer. It is a belief, with faith acting as the support. I'm cool with people looking to religion for emotional answers, but it just gets messy, and frankly extremely fucked up, when people start to apply religion to every aspect including scientific concepts.

When you ask stuff like "Why do we still have the animal we evolved from?" and "Why are there not mixed species between humans and whatever animal it was?", the Bible will not provide these answers. Science will. I provided the answers. Like I said: We did not evolve from modern day apes. They, and us, evolved from apelike creatures who existed 5 and 8 million years ago. Why are there not mixed species? The question itself is phrased badly. We, as we are now, did not exist when our ancestor existed. Unless somebody time travels to 5-8 million years ago and fucks our apelike ancestor, there cannot be a mix.

Offline George

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2013, 04:25:49 pm »
Gorillas are self aware, other animals, not really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDGQySZ1gbs

Offline pcm92

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2013, 09:50:11 pm »
Barry, I really did not intend to make you so upset. I do not think time travel would be possible because what has already happened has already happened. Changing it would just simply not work. I realize you answered my questions. I know what water is. Water is an odorless and tasteless liquid, yet no living thing can live without it. I realize what air is. It is what we need in order to breathe. I respect that you do not believe in God. I hope that you will respect that I do. I'm sorry if I caused you to be angry in any way. I was just telling you that it was an opinion.

Offline CrazyT

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2013, 10:40:32 pm »
I have not noticed much difference from Islamic people and Jewish people. I mean, they both believe in Jesus, they just both don't believe He was the Messiah. They both believe in the same God. Do they not have the exact same belief?
There's a lot of misinformation regarding islam, so i really cant blame anyone.

we actually do believe he was the mesiah. The bible for us is actually a great source to learn more about jesus in addition to the quran. We believe in all his miracles. only difference is that we believe he pulled them off with the permission and aid/power of god, similar to moses. we also dont like to believe jesus was actually crucified.

I dont know much about judaism and how close our religions are. I do know valuing jesus as one of the greatest men/prophet puts us a lot closer to the christians.

Offline George

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2013, 12:06:44 am »
Let's not 'disprove' religion or evolution. That isn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread is "Why Christianity is dying in the US" and the answer to that in my opinion comes from differnet factors. Some that I already shared.

First is the massive amounts of bullshit. No, I'm not talking about the bible in whole, but stuff that gets added on that it is total horseshit, so much so that no one in their right mind can go 'Oh, yes, that has to be right'. Stupid shit like those stupid ass 'weeping statues' that are always found to be fake, holy clothing.

The other thing is the existence of Jesus doesn't seem to hold much weight on it either, as seen in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvleOBYTrDE

Is there a God? Who knows. But in my opinion if there was a creator, I don't see why we can't evolve anyway? Like, what sort of God would make a species one way, even if that mean't extinction? How does the Noah story even work without evolution? Do you think that Noah found every single beetle in the world? You know how many types of beetles there are? Over 250,000. Good luck with that.

I think the idea of 'hardcore Christians' refusing to 'accept' the obvious is what is killing Christianity. They refuse to acknowledge evolution openly, even the fucking Catholic church accepts evolution. Evangelical Christians are bad for Christianity, honestly. Its funny, because thousands of years ago they had no problem expanding and taking other believes to spread the word (look at us taking holidays like Easter, Christmas and such from Pagans), but now it seems that they are backwards with accepting new ideas.

Offline MadeManG74

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2013, 01:38:41 am »
Even the Vatican believes Evolution is compatible with Christianity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

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Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said while the Church had been hostile to Darwin's theory in the past, the idea of evolution could be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas.

Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Santa Croce University in Rome, added that 4th century theologian St Augustine had "never heard the term evolution, but knew that big fish eat smaller fish" and forms of life had been transformed "slowly over time". Aquinas made similar observations in the Middle Ages.

Ahead of a papal-backed conference next month marking the 150th anniversary of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, the Vatican is also set to play down the idea of Intelligent Design, which argues a "higher power" must be responsible for the complexities of life.

The conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University will discuss Intelligent Design to an extent, but only as a "cultural phenomenon" rather than a scientific or theological issue.

Monsignor Ravasi said Darwin's theories had never been formally condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, pointing to comments more than 50 years ago, when Pope Pius XII described evolution as a valid scientific approach to the development of humans.

Offline nuckles87

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2013, 01:54:04 am »
There's a lot of misinformation regarding islam, so i really cant blame anyone.

we actually do believe he was the mesiah. The bible for us is actually a great source to learn more about jesus in addition to the quran. We believe in all his miracles. only difference is that we believe he pulled them off with the permission and aid/power of god, similar to moses. we also dont like to believe jesus was actually crucified.

I dont know much about judaism and how close our religions are. I do know valuing jesus as one of the greatest men/prophet puts us a lot closer to the christians.

Fascinating. I never knew Islamic faith believed Jesus was the messiah.

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Do you think that Noah found every single beetle in the world? You know how many types of beetles there are? Over 250,000. Good luck with that.

The story wasn't really meant to be taken literally. The Torah (Old Testament) as a whole isn't, even in Orthodox Jewish faith. At least, going by what I've learned from my family.

Offline pcm92

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2013, 03:12:38 am »
I think the idea of 'hardcore Christians' refusing to 'accept' the obvious is what is killing Christianity. They refuse to acknowledge evolution openly, even the...Catholic church accepts evolution. Evangelical Christians are bad for Christianity, honestly. Its funny, because thousands of years ago they had no problem expanding and taking other believes to spread the word (look at us taking holidays like Easter, Christmas and such from Pagans), but now it seems that they are backwards with accepting new ideas.

I believe that other animals evolve. It's obvious that they do. I mean, caterpillars currently evolve into butterflies. I am sure that beetles can fly, so could they not have survived the storm? If not, then God probably created the minor animals later. After all, He is God. You could be right though. On the other hand, people might have been shorter at one time. That does not necessarily prove they came from primates. The primates have longer front legs than front legs. This enables them to climb trees more easily. Humans have longer back legs than front legs. This is so we can walk on our feet and use our hands for work.

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2013, 08:00:38 am »
I was going to get into further discussion, but then I realized I'm arguing with the guy who wants to go to war to kill homosexuals for wanting equal rights.

So yeah... Christianity is dying thanks to lunatics like you.

Offline nuckles87

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2013, 10:02:37 am »
I believe that other animals evolve. It's obvious that they do. I mean, caterpillars currently evolve into butterflies. I am sure that beetles can fly, so could they not have survived the storm? If not, then God probably created the minor animals later. After all, He is God. You could be right though. On the other hand, people might have been shorter at one time. That does not necessarily prove they came from primates. The primates have longer front legs than front legs. This enables them to climb trees more easily. Humans have longer back legs than front legs. This is so we can walk on our feet and use our hands for work.

That's not "evolution", that's metamorphosis, which is COMPLETELY different in every conceivable way. Metamorphosis is the process in which a larvae turns into an adult. Evolution is the slow mutation of animals over time into different animals. Over the course of millions of years, trillions of mutations occurred, and small handful turned out to be beneficial enough to be passed on to future generations, which over time lead to the development of new species, species specialized for their environments. This is NOT something that can be observed in a lab with most life, but it HAS been observed in bacteria. This theory of evolution is also supported by a vast fossil record which showcases the older forms of a variety of animals including humans, as well as DNA.


I don't know what you mean by "people being shorter at one time doesn't mean they were descended from apes", but that was never an argument. If you want to see why we are descended from primates...why we ARE primates, you need only look at your hands, then look at the hands of a chimpanzee, and note the similarities. It has its differences, but for all those differences, it is remarkably similar to a human hand.

Humans (which are PRIMATES by the way) evolved their bipedal locomotion to survive in the tall grasses of the savannah, which was encroaching on our ancestor's forest habitat when they first began to evolve this mutation. Our noses evolved the way they did in order to keep dust out of our nostrils so we can breath properly. We evolved to have free hands so that we could create and handle tools with ease, carry food back to the group, carry our helpless babies, fight animals with weapons, and create new inventions. We evolved to find sex pleasurable not so that it can be denied to us, and not even because it encourages us to reproduce, but because it can strengthen the bonds between individuals in a group, something that is very important for creatures like us who cannot survive very well alone. This behavior, by the way, is something that has also been seen in bonobos, one of our closest living relatives. We evolved huge brains so that we could solve problems and create ways of not only overcoming our own shortcomings, but to exploit the world around us in a way no other animal can. With these large brains, we developed morals to help us better survive in a group. We began asking questions that had no answers, and so we invented beings and myths to give us those answers. "Gods".

Barry is correct about one of the reasons Christianity is "dying" (though it REALLY ISN'T), but another reason why is because I can even type the above, and because there is a vocal number of people within the Christian community who refuse to believe it, and instead point towards dubious theories with no scientific backing, and point to stories with even LESS scientific backing and evidence as "historical truths". This is why I find the idea of a Judeo-Christian god as such a hard pill to swallow.

Finally, not all beetles can fly, and even more beetles don't have the strength to survive a storm for 40 days and 40 nights with no land to land on. Thankfully, beetles never had to survive it, because most of the Torah (or as you know it, the Old Testament) is not meant to be taken word for word "literally" as a historical document. It is meant to inform Jewish belief and faith, not be a history book. So simply put, the Great Flood never happened, at least not on a global scale (there isn't even enough water on the planet for that to happen).

Of course you could just say "God made more water" and "God made beetles after the flood" (even though we have beetle fossils with their old color still on them dating back 47 million years, long before humans ever existed, let lone Noah and the Great Flood http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/beetle-fossil-colors/ ), but then again, you could also say "God was the cause of the big bang, which created the universe that changed and evolved over billions of years under His subtle influence, which eventually gave rise to this solar system, this planet, and eventually life, which then evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and eventually lead to modern day animals including humans, which this God then interacted with". I fail to see why the Great Flood NEEDS to be a thing that happened, and why Christianity cannot co-exist with scientific theory. Though I personally belief the human Gods are myths created to fill voids in our understanding, I do believe that  there is the possibility of some higher being that we lack the ability, perspective, or technology to comprehend.

The main reason why Christianity has lost some of its sway with people is because its become less relevant as a way to understand the world around us. There are still plenty of scientists out there who believe in these scientific theories but are also religious. If religion has any value beyond being a literal history of the world (which it does), Christianity will survive just fine. I know Judaism is going to do just swell in this more scientific world, because we don't believe things like the Flood actually happened. We leave the Torah up to the interpretation of the individual, and use it as a moral guide.

Now then, with that off my chest, I do agree with Barry's sentiments. I will just leave you with this: if you really want to know the scientific theories of why humans are the way they are, check out the works of Desmond Morris. They are a little dated by scientific standards, but are still filled with wonderful insight into how the human animal came to be.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 10:06:00 am by nuckles87 »

Offline Barry the Nomad

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2013, 02:24:35 pm »
My reaction to Nux's post:



Brilliantly written.

I wanted to add this excellent speech written by the late, great, Douglas Adams: http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/

There is also an audio version of the speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogQRjpcqm0k

I just love this portion:

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Where does the idea of God come from? Well, I think we have a very skewed point of view on an awful lot of things, but let's try and see where our point of view comes from. Imagine early man. Early man is, like everything else, an evolved creature and he finds himself in a world that he's begun to take a little charge of; he's begun to be a tool-maker, a changer of his environment with the tools that he's made and he makes tools, when he does, in order to make changes in his environment. To give an example of the way man operates compared to other animals, consider speciation, which, as we know, tends to occur when a small group of animals gets separated from the rest of the herd by some geological upheaval, population pressure, food shortage or whatever and finds itself in a new environment with maybe something different going on.

Take a very simple example; maybe a bunch of animals suddenly finds itself in a place where the weather is rather colder. We know that in a few generations those genes which favour a thicker coat will have come to the fore and we'll come and we'll find that the animals have now got thicker coats. Early man, who's a tool maker, doesn't have to do this: he can inhabit an extraordinarily wide range of habitats on earth, from tundra to the Gobi Desert - he even manages to live in New York for heaven's sake - and the reason is that when he arrives in a new environment he doesn't have to wait for several generations; if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I'll have it off him”. Tools have enabled us to think intentionally, to make things and to do things to create a world that fits us better.

Now imagine an early man surveying his surroundings at the end of a happy day's tool making. He looks around and he sees a world which pleases him mightily: behind him are mountains with caves in - mountains are great because you can go and hide in the caves and you are out of the rain and the bears can't get you; in front of him there's the forest - it's got nuts and berries and delicious food; there's a stream going by, which is full of water - water's delicious to drink, you can float your boats in it and do all sorts of stuff with it; here's cousin Ug and he's caught a mammoth - mammoth's are great, you can eat them, you can wear their coats, you can use their bones to create weapons to catch other mammoths. I mean this is a great world, it's fantastic.

But our early man has a moment to reflect and he thinks to himself, 'well, this is an interesting world that I find myself in' and then he asks himself a very treacherous question, a question which is totally meaningless and fallacious, but only comes about because of the nature of the sort of person he is, the sort of person he has evolved into and the sort of person who has thrived because he thinks this particular way. Man the maker looks at his world and says 'So who made this then?' Who made this? - you can see why it's a treacherous question. Early man thinks, 'Well, because there's only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he's probably male'. And so we have the idea of a god.

Then, because when we make things we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself , 'If he made it, what did he make it for?' Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, 'This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely' and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.

Offline pcm92

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Re: Why Christianity is dying in the U.S.
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2013, 02:34:59 pm »
I was going to get into further discussion, but then I realized I'm arguing with the guy who wants to go to war to kill homosexuals for wanting equal rights.

So yeah... Christianity is dying thanks to lunatics like you.

You are a lunatic if I am. You are the one cursing at me, trying to prove my religion is wrong, and telling me my beliefs are dumb. You shouldn't even be an administrator, if you treat people that way. By the way, change the home page. It still says "Happy 4th of July". All of you "smart" administrators forgot to change it.