Why the Dream failed, Famitsu article

[ROJM]

 

it wasn't SEGA fault it was all the fault of the evil SONY.

That's because it is S*ny's fault and yes they are evil.

[Salsatuna]

As we can all see and read talking about Sega and especially the Dreamcast, brings up a lot of emotion. So, no offense taken.

Ironically, Sega named its last console the DREAMcast. And so it leaves us with a dream...

I had a dream...

[fernandeath]

That's because it is S*ny's fault and yes they are evil.

Indeed.
I'm glad I have never owned a Playstation console so far hehe.

As we can all see and read talking about Sega and especially the Dreamcast, brings up a lot of emotion. So, no offense taken.

Ironically, Sega named its last console the DREAMcast. And so it leaves us with a dream...

I had a dream...

Dude, sometimes I get myself wondering, "what if it had worked", you know... and It's such an amazing dream...

[ROJM]

yes it was an amazing dream. Unfortunatly it came in the middle of the biggest nightmare that was called the PSX and PS2.

That said the utter lies of the PS2 on-line and the fake PS2 demo's still to this day hurt 

Changed your tune huh? But i'm glad you brought it up. Someone should write a book called The Great Video Game Swindle. which shows how Sony conned millions of consumers on a system that never did what they said it could do. It couldn't play games because the likelyhood was that the machine would break down in the middle of gameplay, the dvd would make the mega CD blush, and that always worked, The online thing was almost non existant and didn't work properly, Sony made gamers wait for three years before any games came out. I'm suprised that they didn't get sued for customer neglect and lies. Let alone fool half the world with a shoddy product.

[Salsatuna]

My two cents...
It wasn't the customers choice. The movie industry decided to back Blu Ray over HD-DVD. Its an estabilshed fact.  Some say it was for revenge over the huge piracy and downloads which they blamed Microsoft for enabling via windows. You are correct in this so i don't see why its being contested.

Another estabilshed fact that you have said which isn't worth contesting. DVD was on sale in Japan for months and didn't take off. It only took off in Japan because the pS2 could not only play DVDs but was the most affordable DVD unit around at the time. That was also the reason why people brought the PS2 in the west. It sure as hell wasn't for the games because no actual game of any worth appeared on the PS2 until three years into after launch.Something they stole from Sega with the Megadrive and Master system 2 facelifts...to your main point...
Yes another estabilshed fact. PS1's always broke down. It was unique at the time because game systems up to that point wasn't known to break down and especially break down that frequently. The PS2 also did the same thing. I knew someone who owned a Saturn and his mom chucked the system from the top of the stairs and it still worked. Saturn the durable... to be this good takes sega... to last this good takes sega again. To break down after a feather lands on your game system takes Sony. True story by the way...
Exactly because many people who still own those systems have never complained about the systems breaking down. Compared to the PSx userbase who probably doesn't have a workable PSX and PS2 working from when they originally brought it.
Yes another fact well estabilshed. Well said.

I think that's the first time im hearing what you are saying about HD-DVD being punished. It doesn't even seems far-fetched, so it must be true to some(if not a high) degree. There were some dirty games being played behind closed doors.

The PS1 was actually a project ordered by Nintendo. But it seems Nintendo was very unhappy about the final product and rejected it. This has to mean something?

So, what does one do when one has a product that the orginal buyer doesn't want anymore? Surely Sega wouldn't want it. So they did the only thing they could do in order to make profit. Selling it under their own brand.
And as they didnt even know where to start, they turned to Sega for inspiration as Sega was pioneering what was called Virtual Reality at that time. True story by the way, you can find an official Sony statement about that.

Sony really played all its cards in order to make its console take-off. It even started thinking outside of the box, using its know-how and started combining elements that were absolutely not done before. In a time when Sega and Nintendo used the technology that was currently available on the market, Sony totally fabricated a new one, which even became the new standard, to sell its console. While Sega's GD-Rom, a proprietary 1GB disc, was a great invention for the gaming world. The ingenius invention of the DVD; which is actually a mass-market product, totally blew it away.

Nowadays, we have a word for that: Overkill. .Sega really couldn't compete with Sony's business model. As they are not playing in the same playground.

But people were blinded by the Versatility of the DVD: "What? movies and games??"on a console??"  Parents, were starting thinking rather "economics" and saw the savings they could do.
But then came some new problems, mass market production, came at a cost. What used to be durable became a Fast moving consumable good (FMCG). So, yes, said the industry, we can sell you a versatile system. But it wont last long. Hell, it will even break if you are not careful with it. It might even break if you are careful too!

To me Sega products, and Nintendo even more, are high quality and durable products. Though the fact that did Sega introduce the world to the concept of "facelift to consoles". It was doing it in order to reduce production costs. We all know that the new competitors are doing it aswell, but this didnt happen in the same timeframe. The exception to the rule is that even before the facelift(s), Sega's products were still flawless and of high and durable quality.

Do you guys remember that Youtube video about where a two person's tested how tough the N64 was? They even drove over the N64 with a truck?! The thing didn't shatter to pieces!

[Team Andromeda]

Changed your tune huh? But i'm glad you brought it up.

? I never changed my tune . I don't like the PS2 but it was a powerful systems (when used right) and it had great games . I've always been more of a fan of the XBox .
In the end if one takes off their blinkers and fanboys hats they'll see SONY is just like every other corp that will do all it can to make money and in the end SEGA totally mess up on the 32 Bit generation is what cost it dear.

In a time when Sega and Nintendo used the technology that was currently available on the market, Sony totally fabricated a new one, which even became the new standard, to sell its console. While Sega's GD-Rom, a proprietary 1GB disc, was a great invention for the gaming world. The ingenius invention of the DVD; which is actually a mass-market product, totally blew it away.

You see this is fanboy drivel and SONY didn't develope  the DVD - Toshiba did . SONY/Philips Super density disc disc lost out  that  so DVD was choosen and agreed by Moving Picture Experts Group.  BTW Yamaha GD-Rom was just pushing CD Tech that bit more, Philips made a bigger CD-Rom disc (800 Meg for the Jaguar CD unit ) and SONY it's self tried to come up with own like Mini Disc and so on.

 And lets not forget NEC the makers of the worlds 1st CD Drive for consoles way back in 1988.

[Salsatuna]

?
You see this is fanboy drivel and SONY didn't develope  the DVD - Toshiba did . SONY/Philips Super density disc disc lost out  that  so DVD was choosen and agreed by Moving Picture Experts Group.  BTW Yamaha GD-Rom was just pushing CD Tech that bit more, Philips made a bigger CD-Rom disc (800 Meg for the Jaguar CD unit ) and SONY it's self tried to come up with own like Mini Disc and so on.

 And lets not forget NEC the makers of the worlds 1st CD Drive for consoles way back in 1988.

Team Andromeda, you are calling a Segabits.com site/forum user, which is dedicated Sega's past and future glory, a fanboy!? 

Ok, seriously now , I admire Sega, but why are you misreading my lines. If you read me correctly, you would see that I respect any technology that deserves to be respected. And now you get where I'm going with that. I'm not some nerd who makes pointless statetements just because he likes something. Even worse, I'm not even a nerd!

But I sure don't make pointless statements. I choose my words wisely and I do my research on-and offline.

As from all i'm reading you are holding a grudge against Sega for its past neglection. And for one person who is saying not be pro-Sony you sure seem to be defending them quite a lot by contesting everything said about them.

As you called me "fanboy" I will give you what you so much crave: knowledge. 

" DVD is an optical disc storage format, invented and developed by Philips, Sony, Toshiba, and Panasonic in 1995. DVDs offer higher storage capacity than compact discs while having the same dimensions.

Philips and Sony decided that it was in their best interests to avoid another format war over their Multimedia Compact Disc, and agreed to unify with companies backing the Super Density Disc to release a single format, with technologies from both. After other compromises between MMCD and SD, the computer companies through TWG won the day, and a single format, now called DVD, was agreed upon. The TWG also collaborated with the Optical Storage Technology Association (OSTA) on the use of their implementation of the ISO-13346 file system (known as Universal Disk Format) for use on the new DVDs.

The DVD Forum is an international organization composed of hardware, software, media and content companies that use and develop the DVD and formerly HD DVD formats. It was initially known as the DVD Consortium when it was founded in 1995.

Founding members : Hitachi, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Pionneer, Phillips, Sony Corporation, Thomson, Time Warner, Toshiba, JVC.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_Storage_Technology_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Forum "

 

[Team Andromeda]

DVD is an optical disc storage format, invented and developed by Philips, Sony, Toshiba, and Panasonic in 1995. DVDs offer higher storage capacity than compact discs while having the same dimensions.

SONY and Philips came up with their own DVD  it was called and know has the HDCD (High Def CD) Toshiba,Panasonic and Time Warner came up with the Super-Density disc and that was the format that won the day . So SONY lost out in that war and did not invent the DVD (that we use today) they just agreed to join that camp.

As you called me "fanboy" I will give you what you so much crave: knowledge

Well then that knowledge should also tell you that SEGA has bullied other smaller corps, that it's been fined for pricing fixing, that SEGA done time deals and tried to sign exclusives, used fake demo's over played tech spec's and all the other things you like to bash SONY with and then more to the point that knowledge should tell you that SEGA did more damage to its self with the  its terrible handling of 32 bit transition - that cost it Market share, image, 3rd parties and consumers and it never really recovered from that.

 

[ROJM]

I think that's the first time im hearing what you are saying about HD-DVD being punished. It doesn't even seems far-fetched, so it must be true to some(if not a high) degree. There were some dirty games being played behind closed doors.

Yes, it was part of it. HD-DVD was so easy to crack by Pirates that Sony fed them that line about Blu Ray being almost impossible to crack. And of course it was really an under handed way to screw M$.

The PS1 was actually a project ordered by Nintendo. But it seems Nintendo was very unhappy about the final product and rejected it. This has to mean something?

They rejected it because Sony apparently gave them a deal that no sensible company would accept. IE the bulk of the profits would go towards Sony rather than Nintendo. That's the reason why they walked away from it.

So, what does one do when one has a product that the orginal buyer doesn't want anymore? Surely Sega wouldn't want it. So they did the only thing they could do in order to make profit. Selling it under their own brand.
And as they didnt even know where to start, they turned to Sega for inspiration as Sega was pioneering what was called Virtual Reality at that time. True story by the way, you can find an official Sony statement about that.

You mean the 3d model games. no one was calling it virtual reality back then. Sony effectivly learned a lot from sega. Remember they were Sega CD's number one CD third party and they and sega collaborated on a lot of Sega CD games mainly the FMV stuff.

Sony really played all its cards in order to make its console take-off. It even started thinking outside of the box, using its know-how and started combining elements that were absolutely not done before. In a time when Sega and Nintendo used the technology that was currently available on the market, Sony totally fabricated a new one, which even became the new standard, to sell its console. While Sega's GD-Rom, a proprietary 1GB disc, was a great invention for the gaming world. The ingenius invention of the DVD; which is actually a mass-market product, totally blew it away.

Sony knew what the market wanted and the others didn't. Sega didn't realise that their model 1 and 2 games were want people wanted from the next system and sega created a system that didn't take 3D into proper account.

To me Sega products, and Nintendo even more, are high quality and durable products. Though the fact that did Sega introduce the world to the concept of "facelift to consoles". It was doing it in order to reduce production costs. We all know that the new competitors are doing it aswell, but this didnt happen in the same timeframe. The exception to the rule is that even before the facelift(s), Sega's products were still flawless and of high and durable quality.

exactly.

[Team Andromeda]

Yes, it was part of it. HD-DVD was so easy to crack by Pirates that Sony fed them that line about Blu Ray being almost impossible to crack

C'Mon that is not the real reason and how many HD DVD burners did you see ?.  What killed HD-DVD was the lack of backing from some of the studios like Disney and SONY making sure the PS3 would have BluRay. That's what cost Toshiba and it's a shame as HD DVD was a great format.

They rejected it because Sony apparently gave them a deal that no sensible company would accept.

Partly but then that they were 2 Playstaion products has part of the deal and in the end Nintendo just wanted companies to pay it for the media rather than paying for CD's  .

You mean the 3d model games. no one was calling it virtual reality back then

Well I hope so as it was in fact a UK Corp that was trying to pioneer Virtual Reality . I'm sure SEGA invested million into the corp at one stage too.

Sega didn't realise that their model 1 and 2 games were want people wanted from the next system and sega created a system that didn't take 3D into proper account.

SEGA did . In fact in many ways the Saturn is like Model 1 and 2 (in some area's)

exactly.

Not quite - The Model 1 Mega CD was prone to lasers failing and at times the system not booting up at all. The DC had issues with resting due to dust on the PSU and the Japanese units were prone to scratching discs and the shoulder buttons on the pad being broken .

Saturn, Mega Drive and Master System were pretty much bullet proof granted

[ROJM]

C'Mon that is not the real reason and how many HD DVD burners did you see ?.  What killed HD-DVD was the lack of backing from some of the studios like Disney and SONY making sure the PS3 would have BluRay. That's what cost Toshiba and it's a shame as HD DVD was a great format.

A: No one said it was the main reason but it was part of the reason.
B:Second We have already mentioned why HD DVD failed. We were talking about the reason why those companies decided to back blu Ray. Now if you take off your corporate zealot sony glasses off for one second you can plainly see that.

 

Partly but then that they were 2 Playstaion products has part of the deal and in the end Nintendo just wanted companies to pay it for the media rather than paying for CD's  .

Already said that. Under unacceptable deal.

Well I hope so as it was in fact a UK Corp that was trying to pioneer Virtual Reality . I'm sure SEGA invested million into the corp at one stage too.

What do you mean you hope so? Weren't you there?  Virtual reality was a complete different beast and no one confused Sega's model 1 games as being Virtual reality even though games like VIRTUA RACING took bits to emulate a virtual reality experience like the V.R view. Sega realised that no one wanted to put on a pair of glasses to do it.

SEGA did . In fact in many ways the Saturn is like Model 1 and 2 (in some area's)

The saturn's real strengh was in 2D and not 3d it wasn't a true model1/2 based platform or the games would have looked a lot better.  Unlike the DC titles which looked flawless with their arcade ports.

Not quite - The Model 1 Mega CD was prone to lasers failing and at times the system not booting up at all. The DC had issues with resting due to dust on the PSU and the Japanese units were prone to scratching discs and the shoulder buttons on the pad being broken .

So what? Minor in comparison to what happened with the PSX and PS2 and you know it. S*ny built their systems to be flimsy and break down at the slightest thing. You can't accuse of sega of being like that. or nintendo for that matter. So using minor examples to make it look sega are just as bad as sony is stupid at best when Sony history of breakdowns and ratio of breakdowns is higher than any company in history.And that wasn't due to how many sold that made the ratio higher either but due to the product being unsound. especially since the same thing was repeated with the PS2 and that was a flimsy product if ever there was on. Unacceptable across the board.

Saturn, Mega Drive and Master System were pretty much bullet proof granted

GG was durable too.

[Team Andromeda]

What do you mean you hope so?

That Salsatuna was on about Model 1 and 2 games when talking about VR.

Sega realised that no one wanted to put on a pair of glasses to do it.

Yes but sadly SEGA wasted ten or so millions with uk Virtuality .

The saturn's real strengh was in 2D and not 3d it wasn't a true model1/2 based platform or the games would have looked a lot better

Coupel of facts - Model 1/2 didn't have hardware support for 3D transparent effects (just like the Saturn) they both used Quads (just like the Saturn). Modle 1 like the Saturn used seqential processing and a number of DSP and co-processors to handle the data - very much like the Saturn. But with the Saturn being just a single home platform it had to be able to handle both 3D and 2D .

Unlike the myths the Saturn was very good at 3D and could handle a fair number of polygons

Unlike the DC titles which looked flawless with their arcade ports.

Nope - Virtual Fighter 3 isn't perfect, Sega Rally 2 is a million miles off being perfect , Fighter Vipers 2 isn't perfect . Also unlike the Saturn the DC launched some 2 years latter than Model 3 and yet in some key area's wasn't quite as powerful .

NA@MI ports of coruse were perfect just like ST-V to the Saturn.

So what? Minor in comparison to what happened with the PSX and PS2 and you know it

Minor only because the PS and PS2 sold in vastly more numbers . That doesn't change the fact that some of SEGA own hardware had issues .

sony is stupid at best when Sony history of breakdowns and ratio of breakdowns is higher than any company in history

No I think MS with the old 360 takes that record .

[ROJM]

That Salsatuna was on about Model 1 and 2 games when talking about VR.
Read your own posts......

Review the quote and response to it

You mean the 3d model games. no one was calling it virtual reality back
then
Well I hope so as it was in fact a UK Corp that was trying to pioneer Virtual Reality . I'm sure SEGA invested million into the corp at one stage too.

Less confusing isn't it.

Coupel of facts - Model 1/2 didn't have hardware support for 3D transparent effects (just like the Saturn) they both used Quads (just like the Saturn). Modle 1 like the Saturn used seqential processing and a number of DSP and co-processors to handle the data - very much like the Saturn. But with the Saturn being just a single home platform it had to be able to handle both 3D and 2D .

And it didn't do 3D well which is why many assume the 3D processor was an afterthought although that is a myth.

Unlike the myths the Saturn was very good at 3D and could handle a fair number of polygons

Not as well as the PSX

Nope - Virtual Fighter 3 isn't perfect, Sega Rally 2 is a million miles off being perfect , Fighter Vipers 2 isn't perfect . Also unlike the Saturn the DC launched some 2 years latter than Model 3 and yet in some key area's wasn't quite as powerful .

VF3 was a shitty port by a shitty company called Genki, SR2 was ok considering the game was ok but most ports for DC was more than fitting.

NA@MI ports of coruse were perfect just like ST-V to the Saturn.

Said that already but it helps when the console are based off that boards respectivly.
 

Minor only because the PS and PS2 sold in vastly more numbers . That doesn't change the fact that some of SEGA own hardware had issues .

Wrong. Geez can't use your own imagination can you? You have to use exactly what i said when that was not a factor and you know it. when you have reports of people had to replace about three PSX's before they had one that worked or lasted longer. The same goes with the PS2. This is all estabilshed fact which everyone knows about. I'm not going

No I think MS with the old 360 takes that record

Wrong again.

[Team Andromeda]

And it didn't do 3D well which is why many assume the 3D processor was an afterthought although that is a myth

They changed to the SH-2 happened before anyone knew of the PS. Sure some may say that adding a 2nd SH-2 was done to try and beat or at least  Sony . And I'm sorry the Saturn could do handle 3D and handle it well - Just play games like Sega Rally, Virtual Cop , Daytona USA CCE , Quake, Tomb Raider to see decent 3D and all done with the Saturn VDP 1 .
Sure the PS could do better 3D , but the Saturn was more than able to do very decent 3D and when one used the VDP 2 you could have 3D and effects that the PS would find hard to hard to handle like with Gradnia, Dark Savour, Decatlete , VF 2, RSG, Saga and so on.

Not as well as the PSX

In most cases yes, but the Saturn could still handle very decent 3D.

VF3 was a shitty port by a shitty company called Genki

Try no . VF 3 on the DC used around 95% of the Arcade total polygons , but Genki had little time and were working on new hardware . And btw Genki are not shit at all- They were made up of mainly ex AM#2  staff and the team was personally hand picked by Yu Suzuki to handle the port of VF 3Tb .

And they also did great work on the port of Get Bass, Daytona USA 2001 and Virtual Striker 2001 for the DC .

SR2 was ok considering the game was ok but most ports for DC was more than fitting

Not quite flawless conversions though .

when you have reports of people had to replace about three PSX's before they had one that worked or lasted longer

Again given the sucess of those products more people used and played those systems . Mega Cd Model 1 wasn't pefect and had massive issues with lens - where even development systems would fail.

Wrong again.

No way . The launch 360 console is without any doubt the most unreliable console ever made in the history of consoles bar none
 



 


 

[Salsatuna]

It seems that we are going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole! 

Now, i don't get why people just assume that the Saturn couldn't handle 3D well, or couldn't handle it as good as the PS.
We all know that the Saturn's commercial lifespan was less longer than the PS and we also know that the Saturn was quite complex in architecture.

Here you have two reasons why the Saturn couldn't handle 3D well. If you take in consideration the complexity of the architecture and you expand on that thought, which i'm going to do right now.
It basicly means that developpers didn't understand squidly squat about the saturn. in other words they were too eager to make fast money, and didnt gave it a chance. 
"So, oh crap, we need to think too much on this system, oh well let's blame the architecture."

The Saturn had two processors to handle the graphics so it was capable of quite a lot of things, when put into the hands of competent developpers. But in order to make quality games, a lot of time and effort are needed. And as a war was raging, time was a bit of a luxury.

The Saturn did indeed use quadrilaterals instead of triangles. But as both consoles were showing what is called texture warping, those quads were really an advantage. It was also very much capable of producing lighting.

Its "crème de la crème" was going to be "Shenmue". But as the war kept on raging it went to the DC.
But you can still admire what could have been:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

Surely, after seeing that, one cannot say that the saturn couldn't handle 3D.

Also, have a look a this page here beneath, it is explaining a lot about the specs and how the Saturn handle things and the misconception(s) about it.
http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/SATPScompare.htm

Please don't look at this as a "Saturn was better than PS" but more as "Saturn was extremeley underestimated".

As for the Xbox360 has had the most failures in history. I would say that Xbox360 had the most of mediatised interest in regard to the failures.