Author Topic: Official Football Thread of Arsenel rolls over Barcelona  (Read 249717 times)

Offline crackdude

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #435 on: June 27, 2010, 06:31:21 pm »
I'm not claiming any of those things. Stop taking my words to extents I do not intent them to go.

"This is what is the correct set of events, England scored a valid goal, it means the Germans would be unable to score that goal because they could not attack from that position because England scored a PERFECTLY LEGAL GOAL and would start the attack from the centre circle."
Yes, if the referee thinks it's legal. HE DIDN'T. Someone as to call for the game to stop right?

And take a look at this video, and please pause it @0:24 (white screen with text) for me to develop my argument:
[youtube:1cc6ej5s]ZgGEZu9jXRs[/youtube:1cc6ej5s]

So that happened in the game (between the two biggest portuguese rivals in one of the most important games of the season at the attacking team's homeground with 60k home fans screaming for "justice") and the referee decided to play on. Tell me how on earth it only takes one second for the 4th official or whatever to decide. Odds are he/they will override the original decision based on pressure alone, as there is NO WAY you can tell just by looking. Still, if you continue the video and see the case study, the ball doesn't go in.

Now if they override a right decision for a wrong one after watching the clips, how would the fans feel?
You do realize this WILL happen, probably more often than canceling out a bad decision.

It kills the game. I'm not saying Arsene doesn't love football or that tech shouldn't be used. It's just too damned obvious that using televised replays to override decisions have no place in football in the form you are suggesting.

"every major sport HAS video replays and every sport still plays fine."
That's because no other major sport has a CONTINUOUS CLOCK. AmFootball stops the clock, hockey stops the clock, basketball stops the clock, football doesn't.
It changes everything about the flow of a football match.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »
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Offline Aki-at

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #436 on: June 27, 2010, 07:08:00 pm »
Quote from: "crackdude"
I'm not claiming any of those things. Stop taking my words to extents I do not intent them to go.

This is an argument, if that is how far your words can go, then there is something wrong with what you are arguing.

Quote from: "crackdude"
Yes, if the referee thinks it's legal. HE DIDN'T. Someone as to call for the game to stop right?

Yes, the referee, after his official told him, he doesn't have to call the game off beforehand, only after he is sure of his decision. A decision as pointed out is so obvious that even a normal linesmen should have seen it, he didn't, a team got screwed over. What just pat them on the back and tell them it's football? That's not football, that's human error. It is not enjoyable and can mar over a good game.

Quote from: "crackdude"
So that happened in the game (between the two biggest portuguese rivals in one of the most important games of the season at the attacking team's homeground with 60k home fans screaming for "justice") and the referee decided to play on. Tell me how on earth it only takes one second for the 4th official or whatever to decide. Odds are he/they will override the original decision based on pressure alone, as there is NO WAY you can tell just by looking. Still, if you continue the video and see the case study, the ball doesn't go in.

Yes, have more than one camera fitted rather than those based purely for the TV stations. If the referee's assistent feels it didn't go over the line, then that is fine. His call to make and people will agree with him too close to make. And you are using just ONE example, not like what happened today, nor Tevez's goal, two in a day and many more over the course of a season when the wrong decisions are called more often then not.

You are talking about pressure, yes there is pressure, but a good ref will not succumb to that and the errors today was not due to pressure, it was due to human error.

Quote from: "crackdude"
Now if they override a right decision for a wrong one after watching the clips, how would the fans feel?

You do realize this WILL happen, probably more often than canceling out a bad decision

Ref's fault. But if the wrong decision is overrided for the right, fans will have no compliants and that is the more likely scenerio. You are saying that a bad decision is more likely, how is it? What evidence could you possibly have when every major sport has called on the right decisions time and time again in every other sport?

Quote from: "crackdude"
It kills the game. I'm not saying Arsene doesn't love football or that tech shouldn't be used. It's just too damned obvious that using televised replays to override decisions have no place in football in the form you are suggesting.

How is it so "damned obvious" when almost every top level manager is calling for it to be instated?

If anything, the other method is way more obvious that video replays has a place in top level sport.

Quote from: "crackdude"
That's because no other major sport has a CONTINUOUS CLOCK. AmFootball stops the clock, hockey stops the clock, basketball stops the clock, football doesn't.

The clock is basically stopped when the ball goes out of play and the time is added on afterwards. It's basically the same thing, we add time after the half, they do not add any time after the half. It's virtually the same thing.

Quote from: "crackdude"
It changes everything about the flow of a football match.

No it does not, only as much as the ref is willing to blow the whistle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Orta

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #437 on: June 27, 2010, 07:19:57 pm »
tl;dr. Any proper sport in this Earth resorts to video. Football is not one of them, because it's necessary to have volleyball cunts like Platini's France in the World Cup. I like Blatter's (and many other people) argument the video will destroy the excitement of the sport. If it's exciting in seeing your team being blatantly robbed... Well... I really don't have an argument against that.

There is no need to add extra people as there is a fourth official doing pretty much nothing during the match. The match can continue as usual, if this assistant sees anything wrong in the video he can always use the radio to contact the referee so proper judgement can be made. It takes a few seconds and doesn't interfere with the match unless absolutely necessary (ie, stop it).  

It's funny how video has been used in both English and Portuguese leagues to punish players AFTER the matches. If it's used afterwards why not during?

Hopefully England's rape will push English officials to adopt video in the Premiership. If this step is taken it won't be long until every league realises they are in the 21st century.

Quote from: "crackdude"
That's because no other major sport has a CONTINUOUS CLOCK. AmFootball stops the clock, hockey stops the clock, basketball stops the clock, football doesn't.
It changes everything about the flow of a football match.

Also, injury time. Actually, stopping the clock would be beneficial for the sport. Bending the rules by wasting time has made many matches awfully bad. Fake injuries are the biggest insult the fans can get, whether the player is on your side or not.

As for goal line technology, I really don't care much about it. I know it's been tested, and it could be ideal for lower leagues where video isn't exactly an option due to cost. I think video is perfectly fine for dubious goals, ruling offsides and punish violent players and divers on the spot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline fernandeath

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #438 on: June 27, 2010, 07:26:22 pm »
[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIvXyu1N5Yw&[/YouTube]
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Offline Aki-at

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #439 on: June 27, 2010, 07:33:12 pm »
Quote from: "Orta"
As for goal line technology, I really don't care much about it. I know it's been tested, and it could be ideal for lower leagues where video isn't exactly an option due to cost. I think video is perfectly fine for dubious goals, ruling offsides and punish violent players and divers on the spot.

Exactly, if it's not obvious, don't call it. Ref's decision and his assistent at the end of the day, but for something so glaring obvious as what happened today...
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #440 on: June 27, 2010, 08:13:35 pm »
I think that this discussion will lead nowhere based solely on suppositions alone.

I would love to see someday a football league where the clock stops, they resort to replays and every decision ever is the "right" one.
Then I'd love to see everyones' faces when they realize just how boring the 3-4 hour long of low-contact tactical football matches are.

You don't get that although it seems like simple changes it can corrupt the whole essence of the game?


And this:
"The clock is basically stopped when the ball goes out of play and the time is added on afterwards. It's basically the same thing, we add time after the half, they do not add any time after the half. It's virtually the same thing."
is ABSURD.
Tomorrow, you time one of the games. Everytime the game stops, stop the timer. If you get 90 minutes of game with the injury time, I'll happily send you 10 bucks over mail. It won't.


As for the excitement of the sport, if Maradona hadn't scored with "god's hand" against England, the sequence of events would not lead to the second goal of the match, a goal considered the most beautiful and emotional goals of all time.
Based on the laws of probability, any team will be as much robbed as it will be benefited along the years. That evens out, and yes goddamit brings excitement. It gives everyone something to talk about and discuss heartedly for months or years.

Football has been fine for over a century. Some adjustments have been made, but for long decades now no major game-changing alterations were made. Why some of you suddenly think that it needs desperate change is mind-boggling to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »
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Offline Orta

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #441 on: June 28, 2010, 07:21:23 am »
Quote from: "crackdude"
I think that this discussion will lead nowhere based solely on suppositions alone.

I would love to see someday a football league where the clock stops, they resort to replays and every decision ever is the "right" one.
Then I'd love to see everyones' faces when they realize just how boring the 3-4 hour long of low-contact tactical football matches are.

Bullshit. Boring and enraging is seeing player mock the fans with fake injuries.

Quote
You don't get that although it seems like simple changes it can corrupt the whole essence of the game?

More bullshit. If this was the case, we would still live in a world where substitutions aren't allowed. That clearly corrupted the game. Goal line refs clearly corrupted this year's UEFA Cup too.

Quote
And this:
"The clock is basically stopped when the ball goes out of play and the time is added on afterwards. It's basically the same thing, we add time after the half, they do not add any time after the half. It's virtually the same thing."
is ABSURD.
Tomorrow, you time one of the games. Everytime the game stops, stop the timer. If you get 90 minutes of game with the injury time, I'll happily send you 10 bucks over mail. It won't.

A clocked match doesn't necessarily have to last 90 minutes. Check most statistics, the amount of time wasted is absurd.


Quote
As for the excitement of the sport, if Maradona hadn't scored with "god's hand" against England, the sequence of events would not lead to the second goal of the match, a goal considered the most beautiful and emotional goals of all time.

Henry admitted to cheating. Nothing happened to him. Maradona also sweeps lines of coke.

Quote
Based on the laws of probability, any team will be as much robbed as it will be benefited along the years. That evens out, and yes goddamit brings excitement. It gives everyone something to talk about and discuss heartedly for months or years.

Even more bullshit. Bigger teams always have had the bias, especially in less important leagues like ours. These teams are the bunch who have all the attention from the press. When they complain, it seems it's only the poor club X being robbed. Trust me, smaller teams are the most fucked over the years, if you deny this you simply don't know the reality. This is why bigger clubs are getting bigger and smaller clubs keep struggling because they are not given a fair chance inside the pitch. It's worse when the bigger teams have the money and the players AND the fucking bias.

If you think robberies bring excitement... Eh, to each his own. Perhaps if you were Irish you would get the excitement of being left out of the World Cup thanks to a hand ball. Or maybe you would like to see the exciting riots in and outside the stadiums many of them thanks to amazing refereeing jobs.

But, given you're a Porto fan, you're more than used to have the refs blowing the whistle your way. lol Perhaps you should see things outside the box.

Quote
Football has been fine for over a century. Some adjustments have been made, but for long decades now no major game-changing alterations were made. Why some of you suddenly think that it needs desperate change is mind-boggling to me.

Desperate changes? Video hasn't been around since yesterday. Robberies haven't been around since yesterday. Suddenly? I myself have been claiming this for a while. Football needs this in order to be truthful to its rules and to the skill of the teams who play it.

Because, you know, France obviously deserved their spot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Aki-at

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #442 on: June 28, 2010, 08:21:37 am »
Quote from: "crackdude"
I would love to see someday a football league where the clock stops, they resort to replays and every decision ever is the "right" one.
Then I'd love to see everyones' faces when they realize just how boring the 3-4 hour long of low-contact tactical football matches are.

Again, based on very little evidence, almost all other major sports that use it do not last that long.

And again, it is upto the referee, most decisions a referee should trust himself, but dubious incidents require a more through examination and again, if it's too close to call, don't make the call.

Quote from: "crackdude"
You don't get that although it seems like simple changes it can corrupt the whole essence of the game?

As opposed to cheating out millions out of enjoyment over completely incorrect decisions. The essence of the game should not include human error on the rules side of the game. Being dijected because you were wronged in a football match by an incorrect decision is not the essence of the game.

Quote from: "crackdude"
And this:
"The clock is basically stopped when the ball goes out of play and the time is added on afterwards. It's basically the same thing, we add time after the half, they do not add any time after the half. It's virtually the same thing."
is ABSURD.
Tomorrow, you time one of the games. Everytime the game stops, stop the timer. If you get 90 minutes of game with the injury time, I'll happily send you 10 bucks over mail. It won't.

It does not matter if its the exact time, that's not the point, but the idea is extra time is added for moments like this, doesn't matter if it's incorrect or not, it's basically the same method.

Quote from: "crackdude"
As for the excitement of the sport, if Maradona hadn't scored with "god's hand" against England, the sequence of events would not lead to the second goal of the match, a goal considered the most beautiful and emotional goals of all time.

Whatever the past is is the past, that cannot be changed. But now you are talking about possibility, how do you know that if Maradona's handball was not given, England would not have scored two fantastic goals of their own and then, Maradona goes and saves his country with a hattrick, the last goal being scored in the final minute of stoppage time and the game ends as being one of the greatest of all time. The thing about possibilities, it can go both ways, the Irish come into the world cup instead of France and go all the way to the final etc.

Anyway adding technology now will not erase that memory, it'll just make things fair for everyone. And neither will it stop beautiful goals from being scored either.

Quote from: "crackdude"
Based on the laws of probability, any team will be as much robbed as it will be benefited along the years.


This is absolutely ludicrious to point out and I just do not see how one can even possibly believe this. Take for example, Germany's win against England, obviously what you are advocating is England's legal goal now is repercussion for the goal in 1966, however factors and circumstances are vastly different. One, this is the last 16, that was the final, two, this German team would probably still go on to destroy England, already, England has benefitted much better than Germany, it has not evened out.

It's also based on very little evidence, big teams get it their way, Eduardo dived in the Champions League, Celtic got screwed over.

Quote from: "crackdude"
That evens out, and yes goddamit brings excitement. It gives everyone something to talk about and discuss heartedly for months or years.

Evans out, again, the goal yesterday is not even in an equal instence, so it has not even out.

And being robbed brings excitement? What is this? It makes people feel dijected and angry, not make us all say how grand or great our sport is. It's downright terrible. We should be discussing how excellent Germany plays, how great Ozil is, how brilliant their counterattacking football is, that's what people should be discussing, now how the linesmen got it terribly wrong.

Saying mistakes it what brings excitements is one of the worst things I have ever heard, we discuss the team, their skills, their tactics, not how wrong decisions are given.

Quote from: "crackdude"
Football has been fine for over a century. Some adjustments have been made, but for long decades now no major game-changing alterations were made. Why some of you suddenly think that it needs desperate change is mind-boggling to me.

Desperate change? Suddenly? What? I've been an advocate for this as far back as the late 90s, football needs video replay for dubious moments in the game, for it to be fairer to everyone, not just the big teams. I've seen Manchester United get so many decisions for them against the smaller teams (To an extent, Arsenal too) that were just so badly wrong the ref gave it still.

Smaller teams will keep getting screwed over and the game will not be fair. This isn't good for the game at all.

Change isn't bad, change can be good and beneficial to all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Guest »

Offline Orta

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #443 on: June 28, 2010, 01:06:07 pm »


Peace.
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Offline Aki-at

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #444 on: June 28, 2010, 01:50:58 pm »
Hey maaan, that's a bonafide Arsenal-land.co.uk joke, don't take away our jokes from us, it's all we have left =[

Also glad to Dutch through, this new system of their's is proving to be quite effective.
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Offline Orta

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #445 on: June 28, 2010, 02:02:52 pm »
All you have left? So Fabregas is leaving. :lol:
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Offline crackdude

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #446 on: June 28, 2010, 02:19:58 pm »
Guys, I did read all of your replies but I'm not going to answer. I can't possibly fight for my points of view against two people who have just as valid arguments.
Thing is I think it changes the game for worse and you guys think it's for the best, basically.

Still, I'd like to just leave here FIFA's last voiced opinion, which goes around the question in a different way, which I think it's an interesting perspective as well: here's the Wiki article.

peace guys :D
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Offline fernandeath

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #447 on: June 28, 2010, 03:38:42 pm »
The english players were robbed!

I mean... literally!

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/28062010/ ... pants.html
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Offline Orta

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #448 on: June 29, 2010, 03:40:52 am »
^^^hahaha They didn't even get to keep their dignity.

Today's big question is: will Aki-at support Portugal or Barcelona?

WE SHALL SEE.
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Offline Aki-at

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Re: Official Bootter Thread of Bergkamp and Dutch Masters
« Reply #449 on: June 29, 2010, 11:30:59 am »
Brazil's B Team or Barcalona's B Team, I'll have to have a long hard think about it.

Japan and Paraguay play one of the most boring matches at this World Cup but now the real excitement begins. Gentlemen, we are heading into penalties...
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