Terror attack on Paris satire comic 'Charlie-Hebdo' (for drawing Mohammed)

[Barry the Nomad]

But "freedom of speech" isn't a "I can say anything I want without consequences" card.

Yup, that's pretty much the thing. They have every right to do and say the things they put in their magazine, but they were definitely playing with fire. crackdude is not saying that freedom of speech needs restrictions put on it, he means that there can be repercussions for things like this - as awful and as illegal as those repercussions are. This isn't the schoolyard, the "words can never hurt me" card can't be played as it has been very clearly established time and time again that words can lead to some pretty nasty things.

[MadeManG74]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/09/paris-shooters-cornered-in-printing-plant-brothers-say-they-want-to-die-as-martyrs/

Two hostage situations as French authorities close the net on the shooters at Hebdo and the man who killed the police officer in a seperate attack. Apparently both have hostages.

[Sharky]

Yup, that's pretty much the thing. They have every right to do and say the things they put in their magazine, but they were definitely playing with fire. crackdude is not saying that freedom of speech needs restrictions put on it, he means that there can be repercussions for things like this - as awful and as illegal as those repercussions are. This isn't the schoolyard, the "words can never hurt me" card can't be played as it has been very clearly established time and time again that words can lead to some pretty nasty things.

Which is exactly why the law of freedom of speech exists, and why everyone is so outraged. I'm personally not a fan of politically motivated satire cartoons, mainly because usually they're just kind of crap... But they shouldn't be 'playing with fire' just because they've upset some people.

It isn't as if Chalie Hebdo was going after Muslims! 95% of their stuff is simply political satire on various subjects, but they shouldn't fear mentioning Mohammad any more than a politician, the Queen, green piece or the Pope. As soon as you make something 'off limits' you are denying freedom of speech and expression.

Nobody in their right mind supports Neo-Nazi parades or that Mental guy on the street corner in his tinfoil hat shouting about the coming apocalypse.... But those are not crimes and should never be in a free society.



Anyway, as Mademan said the situation has got worse... two separate hostage situations, one in a Supermarket with apparently a lot of hostages.

[MadeManG74]

Seems that all three are now dead, but three hostages were also killed in the stand off. Very sad news, I truly hope this is the end of the ordeal in Paris.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/french-president-francois-hollande-speaks-as-hostage-crisis-ends-1.2894956

Brothers linked to the Charlie Hebdo attack, and another gunman with ties to the two, were killed following separate hostage-takings in Paris, that also left at least three hostages dead, police say.

Police confirmed the death of the two brothers, who had been cornered and holding at least one hostage in a printing house northeast of Paris, in the small industrial town of Dammartin-en-Goele. A hostage was freed safely.

A security official said the two brothers came out firing, prompting the assault on the building where they were holed up.

In the other hostage-taking, police raided a kosher market in eastern Paris where a gunman had taken at least five hostages. That gunman was killed in the raid, along with at least three hostages, police told the Associated Press. Reuters reported at least four hostages were dead.

[inthesky]

The girlfriend of the hostage taker at the supermarket is apparently still at large. But, significant progress nonetheless.

Lots of hostages freed which is good, sad for those who died

[Sharky]

I believe those hostages who died were killed before the raids. It's pretty incredible that none were killed in the raid and all terrorists were dispatched with no other deaths.

[CrazyT]

This whole thing rubs me the wrong way. I find it strange how Arabs and muslims are free to be mocked and have to accept racism as satire. For example this racial stereotyping.(

s no different to me than your typical racist black man stereotypical portrayal.

And I just recently read that some guy making antisemetic jokes was fired by charlie hebdo himself http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/152585/charlie-hebdo-fired-cartoonist-for-anti-semitism-in-2009


The world is such a fucking mess right now. I just cant take anything at face value anymore. With all the stuff thats being held back in the mainstream media, stuff some of you likely dont even know that are happening right now, i cant take anything seriously. With such evil in the world, with such evil ruling everywhere, where is it all coming from? Why is it ok for israel to bomb a whole community and take away some land everyday, but some antisemetic satire gets 1 fired, palestine standing up to become part of UN Gets voted down by US. What a disgusting unfair world.

[crackdude]

they shouldn't be 'playing with fire' just because they've upset some people.

But they are. People have to realize this very basic rule: if someone gets pissed enough they will wreck your shit even if they "can't".

It is my right to walk around with gold chains on my neck, but if I do so for long enough I WILL get robbed.

Bad things and people exist, even if people pretend they don't. Having rights doesn't shield you from getting killed by someone who doesn't give a fuck.

btw, Christ abolished the Israeli law in the Old Testament, so I can eat shellfish all I want! Thank you Jesus

[inthesky]

This whole thing rubs me the wrong way. I find it strange how Arabs and muslims are free to be mocked and have to accept racism as satire. For example this racial stereotyping.(

s no different to me than your typical racist black man stereotypical portrayal.

And I just recently read that some guy making antisemetic jokes was fired by charlie hebdo himself http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/152585/charlie-hebdo-fired-cartoonist-for-anti-semitism-in-2009


The world is such a fucking mess right now. I just cant take anything at face value anymore. With all the stuff thats being held back in the mainstream media, stuff some of you likely dont even know that are happening right now, i cant take anything seriously. With such evil in the world, with such evil ruling everywhere, where is it all coming from? Why is it ok for israel to bomb a whole community and take away some land everyday, but some antisemetic satire gets 1 fired, palestine standing up to become part of UN Gets voted down by US. What a disgusting unfair world.

That's actually an interesting angle. Let me first start by saying that I agree with you on your comments about Israel and Palestine and the U.S.'s treatment of the conflict (the U.S. has historically tried to maintain Israel as an ally.)

I'm interested in how you conceive the caricatures to be racist, genuinely, and speaking as someone with no religious affiliation. As it stands, among certain comics/publications evangelical Christians and positions associated with them are already heavily mocked (This Modern World immediately comes to mind.) I do think that among Western societies (I'm more confident at least in saying this about America) it's less of a point of contention amongst the general public to mock Muslims since the dominant religions include Christianity, maybe Judaism ( but they get shit too) and beside that there are atheists and pagan groups. There are other reasons ofc; 9/11, instability/poor economic circumstances in parts of the region (I knew a person once who said the Middle East should be nuked because it's a mess), immigration concerns (more a Europe thing, apparently.)

While I agree somewhat on your comments on The Media, I chalk it mostly to two things - the commercialization of media (and with this, the desire to write to capture a particular audience) and the fact that it is in the geopolitical interests/of relevant cultural interest to the United States to maintain an ally in Israel's region. Sometimes the higher up you go, the more likely you are to assimilate yourself into what you perceive to be a "group" by adopting their traits - writing styles, beliefs. Personally, I think CNN anchors like Don Lemon and Wolf Blitzer represent very tepid, gray, middle-of-the-road reporting.

That being said, it's worth noting the stuff on USAToday that often attracts most interest/comments include celebrities, sports, items that fuel skepticism (vaccines, for example), hot button political issues (shootings, questioning a politician's character, Ebola in the US). Because a large audience is perceived as being not as present for an under-the-surface article, the fact that things "gotta get clicks/pageviews" for a commercial publication is more problematic - because the concept of economics is influencing what gets written. It's also why longform articles are often not as popular (even Polygon, make of them what you will, have explicitly announced they'll be doing less of them after some of their staff left recently) - shit's too long for some people. I think that, in part, a consequence commercialization of the media is the perceived need to make them more political institutions - besides just basic group/identity dynamics.

I do think it sucks that some of the shit I'm interested in (global warming for example) doesn't get much traction in mainstream publication. Not even the travel stories! I think it's cool to look at other places.

One thing I must add about USAToday is that there are too many freaking ads and it makes for a crappy viewing experience. I do view it though because some of the content is very interesting, and I wonder about the perspective of a mainstream publication.

But they are. People have to realize this very basic rule: if someone gets pissed enough they will wreck your shit even if they "can't".

It is my right to walk around with gold chains on my neck, but if I do so for long enough I WILL get robbed.

Bad things and people exist, even if people pretend they don't. Having rights doesn't shield you from getting killed by someone who doesn't give a fuck.

btw, Christ abolished the Israeli law in the Old Testament, so I can eat shellfish all I want! Thank you Jesus

Yeah that's actually really interesting. The people who killed the French cartoonists here didn't care about our concepts of free speech and the moral justifications or things of the sort behind it. If the problem of "how can we get people to care about things more or not fit into this definition of being a douchebag" were that easily solved we wouldn't deal with nearly as much crap. But it's 2015 and we're not there obv

[CrazyT]

My point really is that I cant care more about charlie hebdo's death more than the average deathtoll each day everywhere else when his death is not even about freedom of speech in the first place.  An antisemetic cartoon was condemned and caused someone to get fired by the same person.

The way it has been caused by muslim terrorists is what should be the focus. And even there I cant take everything at face value. I am one of those who question 9/11's cause. Question the whole political state in the world as it seems to be run by some sort of devil imho. I know it sounds weird for non reilgious people, but I really feel like some evil entity is succeeding in getting the whole world messed up and letting the evil get away with murder

[crackdude]

My point really is that I cant care more about charlie hebdo's death more than the average deathtoll each day everywhere else when his death is not even about freedom of speech in the first place.  An antisemetic cartoon was condemned and caused someone to get fired by the same person.

The way it has been caused by muslim terrorists is what should be the focus. And even there I cant take everything at face value. I am one of those who question 9/11's cause. Question the whole political state in the world as it seems to be run by some sort of devil imho. I know it sounds weird for non reilgious people, but I really feel like some evil entity is succeeding in getting the whole world messed up and letting the evil get away with murder

We on the same page. Sometimes it does feel like there's a puppetmaster just toying with us. That's why I try to stay as neutral as possible in these issues. It's been pretty swell just concentrating my mind on what actually affects me and people around me and simply accepting the world as it is.

[CrazyT]

I think "evil" as a concept is something really hard to understand from a human nature standpoint Where does it come from? I mean where do these sick people governing the world come from? Why are almost all of them so messed up. Why is evil such a huge part of politics? There's definitly a lot of stupidity going on from everyone's side, but I cant help but feel there's a controlling force, like you said, toying with us. Also if these guys are so prominent in politics, why is it so hard to find these chaps in everyday life? I just have a lot of suspicions about everything. Best to avoid the news most of the time.

[inthesky]

My point really is that I cant care more about charlie hebdo's death more than the average deathtoll each day everywhere else when his death is not even about freedom of speech in the first place.  An antisemetic cartoon was condemned and caused someone to get fired by the same person.

The way it has been caused by muslim terrorists is what should be the focus. And even there I cant take everything at face value. I am one of those who question 9/11's cause. Question the whole political state in the world as it seems to be run by some sort of devil imho. I know it sounds weird for non reilgious people, but I really feel like some evil entity is succeeding in getting the whole world messed up and letting the evil get away with murder

I don't really see how this ordeal wasn't in part related to how different kinds of people tolerate dissenting opinions, though I doubt most comics get into their trade out of a zeal for the concept of freedom of speech. It's worth noting that free speech isn't a fundamental human right but is mostly a legal concept - which hey, can still be important.

As for the terrorism thing, I feel like it's a bit straightforward. Disadvantaged populations or ideologically wayward people being led astray by terrorists scapegoating something like a cartoon as something that is an existential threat. When you get people hopped up on shit like that, and if you give them an explanation, sometimes they bite. Hysteria and fear change your ability to think. Terrorists are opportunists I feel.

Terrorism organizations probably inevitably develop into strong power hierarchies. You get leaders who tell people that their deaths/taking the lives of innocents is justified while the leaders are protected - and the leaders must be protected because they offer guidance or whatever. To go on your comment later in this topic about sick people governing the world - power can be very corrupting. Through a combination of existential hysteria, moral justifications (righting perceived wrongs) and whatever else, I think it makes radical terrorists lose a sense of humanity and empathy. It creates distance between yourself and people, the world around - you start not being able to function well as a human. You don't perceive how fucked up it is to take hostages and kill innocents. You feel like suicide bombings or laudable.

That "The West" is often perceived as an enemy (see Boko Haram, w/e other organization) is i think due to a couple of things
-West predominately is Christian or Jewish, while the ones we frequently hear about are Muslim. For some practitioners of religions, especially among the three Abrahamic religions, coexistence is not possible
-they justify it by talking about colonialism or imperialism history of Western countries (esp. in Africa.)

I don't really feel there's like a Dark Force (he-yo Phantasy Star) at work...humanity can't come up with an agreed upon really specific definition of good is anyway =P. What we understand as good and bad, sometimes the bad get away with shit and sometimes they don't. Did the gunmen get away with their killings because they managed to execute it or did they not get away because now they're dead...

As for evil people in general, that's a hard as hell question. they're everywhere, like good people, and sometimes evil people can be charismatic and good people are obnoxious or just innocuous shit like we don't like the same music so we don't talk to each other. I think our political systems are such that it is easy to reward predatory behavior, because there is a point in the practice of politics that we have now that being purely good amongst someone who is a liar will mean you can't accomplish what you want. and sometimes people will trade the performance of their job for favors. I think it's just simple stuff like some people like power, money, competition, winning at all costs. Then you have the other ways shit could go wrong - people getting stressed out at jobs, fear of getting fired/not having enough money so you get all cutthroat even if you're a decent fellow at heart, you think.

Seeing as we don't know a universal origin for stuff like evil, I can see how people feel like there's an evil force.

[Sharky]

The reason the most powerful people are usually pricks, is actually very simple. People who strive to, and also succeed to attain positions of power are often the kinds of people who will put those aspirations above all else, including friends, family and relationships. To put power above people often takes someone with a low sense of empathy. So an unfortunate side effect of that is that we have people power who lack empathy for other humans.

As for Evil... Evil is not a force in the universe like time, gravity, energy, light... It's just a word to describe particularly nasty acts.


And finally,  if you really think all those millions of people protested in support of the Charlie Hedbo comics you are missing the point. The comics usually run a print of 60k per month and of those only 30k are sold. The company was on the verge of bankruptcy because most people really don't care that much for satirical cartoons wither they feature Mohammad or the Pope or anyone else.

Millions of people across Europe took to the streets to protest the brutal slaying of men and woman, not in support of a satirical comic. But to protest against an 'evil' murderous rampage by people who do not believe in our freedom of expression. The saying 'Je Sous Chalie' is not a support of the comic, it's in support of the comics right to exist, right to say what they feel without fear. The right of everybody in Europe enjoys, they are saying 'I am no different.' It's not an attack on a comic, it's an attack on our way of life.

Does it rub you the wrong way? Does it insult you? So fucking what?! Sometimes things rub me the wrong way, or someone will say
 something truly idiotic and I will think; 'What a fucking idiot.' I might even argue with them and tell them what I think, but I'm not going to track them down and kill them. It is their right to their opinion even if it's not something I like or agree with.


As for that comic above being 'racist' of course it isn't, it's about Muslim extremists, that's what they usually look like! Turbans and scraggy beard are their hallmarks! How else would you depict them as a cartoon!? Do all Arabs look like that? Of course not!

[MadeManG74]

Figure this doesn't deserve a seperate thread- Semi-related.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pegida-marches-25000-join-antiislamification-protests-in-germany-following-paris-attacks-9974036.html

Germany's growing anti-Islamic protest movement registered its largest attendance on Monday with 25,000 supporters turning out in what organisers described as a tribute to the victims of the terror attacks in Paris.

Pegida, which stands for "Patriotic Europeans against Islamisation of the West", asked supporters marching through Dresden to wear black ribbons in respect for the 17 people killed in the French capital last week. It was met with fervent counter-demonstrations of as many as 8,000 people and accusations that the group were “misusing” events in France to further their cause.

The German chancellor Angela Merkel has said she will attend a protest organised by Muslim groups in Berlin on Tuesday. "Islam is part of Germany," she told reporters during a break with meeting Turkey's Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu. "I am the chancellor of all Germans."

Pegida started out in mid-October with a demonstration in Dresden attended by about 200 supporters. In early December it attracted 15,000 supporters. On 22 December a record 17,500 attended the movement's weekly Monday protest in the city.

While continually met with counter-demonstrations, it surge in popularity has shocked established political parties and come at a time which concerns over immigration are polarising the country. But there are fears that last week’s attacks in Paris have, in some cases, crystallised the cause of the protest movement which on Monday registered its largest figures yet.

Some attendees wore black while others held up placards with the names of the French journalists killed. Others carried banners condemning the "lying press" that they claim misrepresents their cause

"The Islamists, who Pegida have been warning about for 12 weeks, showed France that they are not capable of democracy but rather look to violence and death as an answer," Pegida's leaders said on the group’s social networking site. "Our politicians want us to believe the opposite. Must such a tragedy happen here in Germany first?"

Justice Minister Heiko Maas was one of several leading politicians to urge the Pegida march organisers in Dresden not to "misuse" the deadly attacks on Charlie Hebdo magazine and a Jewish supermarket.

But tensions were further raised over the weekend when arsonists attacked a Hamburg newspaper office that republished cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad which had originally been printed by Charlie Hebdo in 2006. The magazine is set to release its first edition since the attacks on Wednesday.

In Berlin, where some 4,000 counter-protesters were kept apart from a few hundred Pegida supporters by police at the Brandenburg Gate on Monday night, one banner read "We are Charlie. We are not Pegida."