1. I'm not entirely sure how the werehog correlates to what we were talking about on this front. I was of the impression we were discussing just remaking NiGHTS, which I said I was something I thought SU said he wanted.
2. I'm not entirely sure. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle and Sonic Adventure DX were very widely panned. I'm not saying Heroes was a good game, I'm saying it was mediocre. It was hardly as shitty as some of the other things that would come after it. I played through Sonic Heroes once, I'm guessing 7 years ago, so while I may not be the expert you are, I have played the game, and don't remember it being significantly better or worse than Sonic Adventure or its sequel. It solved a lot of the problems of the Adventure games, such as the Knuckles stages, by simply having him be part of the platforming element, which was a good idea, all things considered. Some things, such as the continued inclusion of voice acting and a faulty camera are still in place. The issue is it came 5 years after Sonic Adventure first came out.
I would never say Heroes was as bad as Shadow (Which I also have much less experience than you with apparently) and Sonic 06 (which I honestly didn't dick around with beyond the first few stages). Maybe I'm underestimating Shadow?
3. I'm not saying I loved Sonic Heroes, I just think that you're overstating its lack of quality. I believe it was a 6 or 7 game, and would have scored it in that range were I a judge. It shouldn't have averaged 4s and 5s, like more recent efforts. I never said it was as good as something Nintendo or Naughty Dog puts out, though I'm not sure its fair to compare Sonic Team to Naughty Dog or Nintendo, as those are stable studios working on their own hardware (more or less) where Sonic Team was
a. Being forced to develop on non-Sega hardware, which is in itself demoralizing, especially after working on Dreamcast hardware since, what, 1997? And then with the XBOX flopping in Japan, being forced to work on the Playstation 2, which as well as being the system of the enemy, was also a pain in the ass to program for, and you were being forced to do it at break neck speed. Companies like Konami, Capcom and Square had head starts of years, which Sega was forced to compete with.
b. Part of a sudden merger into Sammy.
c. Made 1st Party again, and thereby stripped of the autonomy they'd enjoyed for five years.
d. Merged with UGA, which had a very different style, and inevitably lead to conflicting hierarchies. You'll notice that save Project Rub, UGA staff have been relegated to Sonic spinoffs?
I would like to see any one of those companies churn out decent games under that environment. Look at Rare. They were only subject to a sale, or a quarter of what Sega/Sonic Team was, and see the difference between Conker and Ghoulies. I'd hazard the remark that Rare has yet to recover, though they've done better than Sonic Team, thus far.
And to the original argument, all those problems are the fault of management, not the individual studios.
4. Free flow flying is a bit of a stretch if I remember NiGHTS correctly. The game was after all on a 2D plane. It seemed to me that you were on a reasonably set course in that in order to score you went through hoops and the like. Sure you can go left or right or something, but that's not really that different from going to the left or right platform in a 3D platformer. That's like calling Sonic free flow running because he can go in a number of directions. While its true, you'll also have a correspondingly terrible score, which defeats the purpose of the game. Hell, there were even arrows in NiGHTS telling you which way to go. And like in a platformer, you go up or down and side to side. The only difference is instead of jumping, you zoom up, so there is no pressing A or whatever.
If you call NiGHTS free flow flying seriously, and not as a bit of marketing Kilanski used to market the game in 96, then I have to wonder if you really understand the definition of the word free? :mrgreen:
Remind me, Aki, how many times playing Panzer Dragoon Zwei, back in good old 1996, did you get the inclination that the sequel would obviously be an RPG? Where is the connection between a rail shooter and an RPG? They are literally as far apart on the spectrum as I can imagine. Yet it seemed to work fine.
If you can make a rail shooter into an RPG (Panzer Dragoon Saga), or a rail shooting zombie game into an educational game (Typing of the Dead), or a traditional RPG with abundant story into a hack n slash with virtually no story (Phantasy Star Online), I don't see why you couldn't make something that has many basic elements of a platformer (such as more or less pre-determined paths, the timer and so on) into a game that has good platforming elements.
It can be done. I'm not saying they did it right, I'm simply saying that a very good and well thought out game could exist in which there is both platforming and "free flow flying" and you would not utter one word of complaint because the game was good. Otherwise I'd never hear the end of how Panzer Dragoon Saga, or Shining Force, or whatever else has your panties in a wad, have you drifted from the series roots and the like. And Shining Force is an even better example here because we aren't talking about a series (as the original Shining Force only had one predecessor). We're talking about the canon of all of one game.
In fact, I would go so far as to say I highly doubt you honestly give a fuck about genre if the game is good, and changing genre and making a good game are not mutually exclusive, as something like Saga points out. Its an issue of quality, and I think deep down you know that. Or am I to assume that we can't make an adventure out of say...Virtua Fighter, change the names a bit and call it something like...I don't know...Shenmue? And I understand that that specific example evolved a bit beyond a Virtua Fighter Adventure, but you get the general premise of my point I trust.
The platforming doesn't have to be the overriding element, but it can exist, and it can exist well.
5. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. When did I defend Shadow? All I said was Heroes was not a terrible game, merely mediocre. For an Englishman, how much English do they actually teach you in school? I really have to ask if you're not just an American masquerading.
6. Sonic the Fighters was a decent game and was fairly well received, thank you very much. It was no Virtua Fighter, but it'll do. On the same topic, as I'm sure you know, there is also a Sonic RPG, a few racers (both on foot and in cars), a puzzle game, a few adventure games, a maze, a party game, a tennis game (with other Sega characters to flesh it out), two games at the olympics, and so on and so on and so on. House of the Dead has ventured into the land of education, pinball and brawler/adventure.
Just goes to show you how flexible Sega can be.
7. No, and I agree with you there. They should not have forced you to use the masks. That was poor choice.
I would actually prefer the whisp powers, IF they are done correctly and are optional, clever and fun, because they allow the game to open up a little more and they add variation to a 20 year old routine.
8. I'm not saying they should keep the additions with each game, and just build them on to one another, so that the third game is flying, plus my platforming, plus, say, racing.
I'm saying each game should be unique, and while there should be games that stick to the bare bones basic premise of the series, there should also be games that do things differently. That's one thing I like about the Shining series.
We'll say one main instalment and one odd game (like my platforming) per generation. Part of the problem with Sega is they make sequels once in a blue moon, and only milk one or two games. I don't believe JoD, as it was advertised as NiGHTS 2, should have had platforming, but that there is nothing wrong with some NiGHTS game having it. They should simply make more of them. Some bare bones, rock ribbed and to the basics, and some with weird ideas to play with.
