Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1

[MadeManG74]

I think you're drawing a long bow to be honest. Doesn't Mario keep moving in mid-air? That quote doesn't even mention the game physics.

[George]

Idiotic, the point of all sonic games was always to be simple. You are an idiot if you think 'all of a sudden' they are playing Sonic to the 'casual' crowd, when that was the intention since he was made.

[Aki-at]

Yeah I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill to be honest. Naka (Or one of the three) even said Sonic 1 was designed with only one button in mind so that it could be accessible for everyone. The idea was it was easy to complete a level, but hard to master it.

[crackdude]

Yeah cause no one ever had ANY PROBLEM WHATSOEVER getting through Chemical Plant in Sonic2. Which is like.. the 3rd level.

Simple gameplay doesn't make a game easy. The old ones needed more skill than Sonic 4. And that is largely due to the later giving more control over the character (easier to change direction midair for example).

Back in the Megadrive days Sonic was the most mainstream hardcore game. There were no casuals back then. The market has changed and so did the core demographics for Sonic 4 I believe.

[CrazyT]

Lol yeah, I died lots of times in chemical plant act 2 as a kid. Still got past it after replaying the game enough times.

The thing is, people seem to think losing lives or getting the game over screen is a bad thing today. What happened to retrying untill you finally succeed and feel great about it.

I could never finish sonic 1 as a kid, but I still loved the game.

 And of course the level select cheat made things a whole lot easier lol  

The day when I finally finished sonic 1 from beginning to end without the level select cheat felt really satisfying. I think that was around the age of 11.

[MadeManG74]

Back in the Megadrive days Sonic was the most mainstream hardcore game. There were no casuals back then. The market has changed and so did the core demographics for Sonic 4 I believe.

Bullshit, boy. No casuals? This Sonic came from 1991 remember? All those licensed platformers, you don't think it ripples out? You don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about. I was a few years ahead of you in gaming, but I know you remember the scene, how it was.
We had some easy games, for real. Wasn't about guns so much as knowing what to do with your hands. Those boys could really rack. My father had me on the casual platformers, but like any young man, I wanted to be hard too, so I'd turn up at all the house parties where the tough boys hung. Shit, they knew I wasn't one of them. Them hard cases would come up to me and say, "Go home, schoolboy, you don't belong here." Didn't realize at the time what they were doing for me. As casual as games were back then, we had us a community. Nobody, gamer, who didn't matter. And now all we got is arguments, and predatory motherfuckers like you. And out where that Sonic 4 came out, I saw kids acting like crackdude, calling you by name, glorifying your ass. Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell.

*Cough*



In all seriousness though, there were casuals back then, there always were. Even if not, the game was still designed to be easy as possible for anyone to play, which seems to fit into that 'casual' mindset.

Anyway, we've had this argument a million times. Sega Stylista thinks everything he doesn't personally like is a 'casual' move.

[Sega Stylista]

In all seriousness though, there were casuals back then, there always were. Even if not, the game was still designed to be easy as possible for anyone to play, which seems to fit into that 'casual' mindset.

No one is arguing that there were casuals back the fact it there are much more of them today enough so that they influence game design.

Gaming demographics have changed significantly from 1991.  It's a FACT MM, why can't you recognize it and extend the obvious logical conclusion from it?

Incidently, have you ever played Super Mario Bros 2 the Famicom version?  Are you going to tell me that Miyamoto was making a platformer for casual Mario players?  That game was hard as hell.  Even Sonic 1 is very hard by casual standards.  Are you going to tell me that the fact you can get 100's of lives and infinite continues in Sonic 4 is not a deliberate casual change?

Anyway, we've had this argument a million times. Sega Stylista thinks everything he doesn't personally like is a 'casual' move.

No, MM, unlike you I have worked in a corporate marketing department and I know how products are conceived in a product planning process.  I know how products are engineered towards maximizing sales to the demographics they are selling to.  It's not some guy being lazy scratching his ass at Sonic Team with millions of dollars on the line just accidentally coming up with physics that are different from the classics.

I am offering a very simple premise and you just don't want to accept want logically follows from it.  Either say my premise is wrong or offer a different logic. I don't see you doing either.

[Sega Stylista]

Idiotic, the point of all sonic games was always to be simple. You are an idiot if you think 'all of a sudden' they are playing Sonic to the 'casual' crowd, when that was the intention since he was made.

George, you are the idiot that can't recognize the fact that gaming demographics changed massively from 1991 and then extend the obvious logical conclusion from it.

What part of the gaming demographics changed massively from 1991 is such a challenge of rational comprehension to you?

It's a FACT.  Extend the obvious logical conclusion... I know you can do this.

example:

Submachine guns are sold to a dedicated audience.. If the demographic for submachine guns was widened to include everyday fuckwads like gaming does today, how would that impact the design?

Are the demographics that owns iphone and plays games on it the same that was playing Sonic 1 back in 1991?  Would their demographic have been in the arcades in the late 80's early 90's? Could go on forever.

My frustration is that I get the problem. Other than Crackdude, seems like the rest of you don't and yet you complain to no end expecting something to happen when it is never going to under the current market conditions.  At least you guys could start a movement towards more hardcore game style, which is what I've tried, but instead you are just waiting for Sega to transform to something it was in a totally different era and give you the games you want even though you represent a whopping total 1.5% of the market to them today.

[crackdude]

Back in the Megadrive days Sonic was the most mainstream hardcore game. There were no casuals back then. The market has changed and so did the core demographics for Sonic 4 I believe.

Bullshit, boy. No casuals? This Sonic came from 1991 remember? All those licensed platformers, you don't think it ripples out? You don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about. I was a few years ahead of you in gaming, but I know you remember the scene, how it was.
We had some easy games, for real. Wasn't about guns so much as knowing what to do with your hands. Those boys could really rack. My father had me on the casual platformers, but like any young man, I wanted to be hard too, so I'd turn up at all the house parties where the tough boys hung. Shit, they knew I wasn't one of them. Them hard cases would come up to me and say, "Go home, schoolboy, you don't belong here." Didn't realize at the time what they were doing for me. As casual as games were back then, we had us a community. Nobody, gamer, who didn't matter. And now all we got is arguments, and predatory motherfuckers like you. And out where that Sonic 4 came out, I saw kids acting like crackdude, calling you by name, glorifying your ass. Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell.

*Cough*



In all seriousness though, there were casuals back then, there always were. Even if not, the game was still designed to be easy as possible for anyone to play, which seems to fit into that 'casual' mindset.

Anyway, we've had this argument a million times. Sega Stylista thinks everything he doesn't personally like is a 'casual' move.

This put a smile on my face  :lol:

As for the "easy as possible for anyone to play", well.. Take a shmup like Mars Matrix for example. Anyone can play it, there's only move and shoot. But it's still though, and if you don't know what you're doing you'll lose quickly.

And I remember for example having a friend of mine play Sonic 1 and complaining she couldn't time the jumps correctly on those pillars over spikes in act 2 or 3 of GHZ. Had there been internet back then she could be on some forum complaining how the physics were all wrong...

Sonic involves skill and precision. Sonic 4 eases a bit.

But I do agree that the core demographics have changed considerably. I think that's the main reason for the change.

[fluffymoochicken]

*Cough*

*Cough*

[MadeManG74]

You know what, I just realised how rude I sounded earlier, so I apologise for that Sega Stylista. I try not to be offensive, but sometimes I slip up.

Anyway, I still have to disagree with you that the physics were designed that way to appeal to casual fans, I can definitely see your line of thinking, but I just don't see the correlation myself. The homing attack I could see clearer, but I also think that was just poor design in their part as I don't see the benefit of a homing attack in a 2D game, I don't even see it making the game substantially easier, just a strange choice.

As for the demographics changing though, do you have any solid evidence to suggest this? Things have changed, but I bet that games like Modern Warfare 2 and Halo would still have been big sellers back in the day. Look at the runaway popularity of EA Sports titles back on the Mega Drive for an example. Things have changed, but there will always be high-concept games that appeal to lots of people (Sometimes they are genuinely very good games too).

[Autosaver]

Back then, casuals and hardcore gamers didn't really exist. Its more broad now a days.

[MadeManG74]

Back then, casuals and hardcore gamers didn't really exist. Its more broad now a days.

I remember the terms 'casual' and 'hardcore' being tossed around as early as '97 or so around the Sega Saturn's era. I remember someone writing a letter into Sega Saturn Magazine complaining about 'Casual' gamers.

I think they did exist back then, think about it, there were still people playing games like FIFA and Movie-tie ins and not getting more niche stuff.

[Barry the Nomad]

I was a casual from '91 through to '97. Nearly all of my games were Sonic, Disney Interactive, Ninja Turtles (Hyperstone Heist!). At around 13 years old I started playing stuff like Tenchu, Virtua Fighter, RPGs and Shmups. I definitely remember there being a designation between casual games and hardcore games as early as when Mademan is referring to.

[Barry the Nomad]

Feedback session footage!

http://www.sonicstadium.org/articles/20 ... f-america/

I gotta admit, I was cringing at the moments when fans were going a bit too Comic Book Guy nerd rage over things. It also throws me off to see people younger than me getting so worked up over a Sonic game. Of course, we've discussed this in the past on the forums so I won't get into it again. Still, glad SEGA held the session.