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Gaming => General Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: ROJM on August 24, 2013, 10:42:30 am
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Read this article :here- http://voxelarcade.com/reaction/videogame-industry-die-along-sega/
or below
SE-GA!!!! Anyone who owned a Sega Megadrive/Genesis will know that word, sung with confidence and self glorifying haughtiness, at the start of many a classic Sega game. It was a seal of quality and quirkiness, a sign that you were playing a Sega game, and all the baggage and craziness that came with it. Yet, Sega very rarely use it to introduce their own games anymore, with only those games that are deemed ‘retro’ having any chance of having the logo heralded at the start.
The reason is that the confidence has gone, and those crazy blue skies are a thing of the past, because Sega are now just another videogame publisher. The difference between Sega and the others is that Sega bang out poor Sonic games every now and then, and manage to mess up enough classic game conversions of old titles that many don’t bother, looking to emulators instead for their Sega thrills.
I remember reading an article, when Sega decided to drop out of the hardware race, where the writer gleefully predicted that EA would soon ‘be looking in their rear mirror at the bright red Ferrari catching them up on the fast lane’.
That prediction proved false, with layoffs, poor financial results and a total lack of innovation and risk taking already getting the vultures taking notice, hungry for Sega’s many prized assets. Assets it has no idea what to do with itself. Essentially, the Sega of old, of Burning Rangers, Daytona USA, Crazy Taxi and the like, is dead, replaced by a Western focused Japanese publisher with no clear idea where to go.
So with ‘our’ Sega gone, what is the videogame industry becoming? Microsoft want to turn gaming on the Xbox into just one option on the screen of a money-making ‘do all’ set top box. Sony can’t decide if it wants to follow suite, although is more promising than Microsoft. Nintendo, who went their own way with the Wii, and did very well, is slowly being convinced that games should just be one part of a wider offering in a console.
In the realm of computer gaming, where we used to have Atari, Commodore, the PC and many, many more, we now have just the PC and Mac to choose from, which isn’t really a choice as 90% of Mac games are PC or iPhone ports. Where there were many, now there is one.
We also have mobile gaming in the form of the iPhone and Android, both of which started out well, but now both of which are being taken over by the evil of the IAP and ‘free to play’ nonsense, nonsense that is slowly but surely encroaching on the consoles and PC. Note: although the new platforms that let you play Android games on your TV look nice, just remember that having them on your TV will not make these Android games any less shit.
I don’t like where the industry is heading. A future where free to play, micro transactions and season passes are the norm, where all the consoles are almost identical aside from an exclusive here are there, where there is only the PC as an alternative, an alternative that itself is limited to slightly better looking and slightly better performing versions of console games, and where gaming as a whole is just one option to select in the black/grey box sitting under your TV.
Did The Videogame Industry Die Along With Sega gameplay
The industry may be making more money than ever, but that industry is looking less and less like a videogame industry and more and more like one facet of a wider industry that has that awful, nasty word emblazoned on it: multimedia. The passing of the Sega of old may just be a coincidence, happening at a time of great change in the industry, but it was all the money men needed to whisper in the ears of publishers and platform holders everywhere: “See? It doesn’t work, you need to expand and find new ways to make money”.
These same money men are right now whispering in the ears of Nintendo and Sony. They are already in charge at Microsoft, and have been since they decided to charge for online play. “See, we are now making millions charging them for playing the games they have already bought, just think what else we can do!”.
Sega, please come back. Please come back and save us from this inevitable future, a future of grey skies. Bring back the blue skies of old and cast these grey clouds, hovering over the landscape of gaming, away for good.
Hurry. They are closing in.
Now we know Sega is far from dead but you can defiantly argue that they a shadow of what they use to be. Does this guy have a point? Are we really fans of a video game industry anymore or something else? Has companies known for great solid gaming over generations also lost the spark that use to make them cool when we were younger? Was the DC the real last true games machine ever made despite the subsequent systems that had their own classics? You can argue that the guy may be over reacting a little bit but there are some things we have all noticed in where the games industry is going which seems abhorrent to the very nature of what gaming is meant to be about. What do you think?
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YES.
Hahaha, to be fair, I would qualify the language of the initial thesis and give entirely different reasons as to why I feel that way.
To say that the industry "died" alongside Sega is overly alarmist, it's more that once the first-party race changed in dynamic from the former lineup of toy-oriented game design perfectionist (Nintendo), film and music industry integrated mega-conglomeration (Sony), and a technology-obsessed culture guru (Sega) to Nintendo and the Sony-Microsoft twins, the mainstream scene stopped building off eachother and creating a thriving, interesting gaming culture.
Sega and Nintendo bounced ideas off of eachother in the most fascinating ways, and through their entirely distinct approaches to rising technological capabilities and whatever inspiration motivated them that year, constantly out-did themselves and eachother. In the earliest years, Sega was geared toward the adrenaline-seeking punks in smoke-filled arcades who wanted drag-racing and fist-fights while Nintendo sought out the kind of imaginative, story-book family fun that the toy industry mined. Competition drove Sega to employ more off-the-wall imagination and for Nintendo to get in peoples' faces every once in awhile. Sega drew from the popular culture that Sony were purveyors of in their other endeavors (only VERY recently did Sony learn how to/buy up companies that could make games themselves) to the extent that many of the major hits that Sony published played off of Sega's action film and music video-inspired classics, which in turn lead to Sega's Dreamcast-era reinterpretation of the hip counter-cultural-yet-mainstream gaming that they themselves had inspired. This was great for Nintendo as well -- they backed their first-party IPs harder than ever in an attempt to make their names bonafide cultural entities in order to combat Sony, yet they were galvanized to keep moving forward with creative, off-the-wall concepts by Sega.
If I could go back to those dynamics, I would gladly do so. I'm not a Sony fan, but the way they rose the stakes inspired a lot of great creativity from the other two first-parties.
So tell me somethin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpvXnrNyuU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpvXnrNyuU)
When Sega left and Microsoft took their place, this dynamic went away entirely. Nintendo became the revolutionizers, but they just don't follow Sega's act that well when it comes to nonstop teeth-smashing creative energy. It's like comparing first-wave punk to radio pop-punk. Sony's kind of coming into their own as a hyper-outsourcing games maker, but it's just to distinguish their brand from the otherwise identical Microsoft camp. While there are certainly some great games to come out in recent memory for every console, the urgency is gone. Well, let me correct that -- there's plenty of urgency, but most of the first parties are trying to fix their problems with bureaucracy instead of inspired, synaesthetic, heart-stoppingly modern game design.
Hell, Nintendo's TRYING, but no one's willing to risk supporting their console because it doesn't hit close enough the the mark scratched out by the PlayStation and Xbox brands, which made their mark with a LOT of stuff that has NOTHING to do with game design.
So, is the game industry dead? No. But it's no longer driven primarily by modernity in game design, and that's a huge disappointment that DID begin and practically arrive as soon as the bell tolled for the Dreamcast.
I'm holding on to hope that consoles fold, the industry moves to PC distribution, third-parties reject Sony and Microsoft online distribution since it will offer no significant advantages over pre-existing services, and that hardware innovation amongst game developers will largely come through highly imaginative proprietary controllers which can control either an extremely focused or vast array of different game types. It's here that developers can pick up the Sega torch and finally run with it again before it goes out completely. Hopefully that developer will be Sega themselves, but if not, I know for a fact we still have plenty of incredibly creative developers who are itching for a chance to make their mark once they get uncaged from the awful current state of this industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KcumOS7M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1KcumOS7M)
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Someone else had the same opinion on sega.com
His name is Sem
mod edit: hi Semmie, bye Semmie.
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It's just some sad fanboy drivel . I would only agree that the old SEGA is long dead and Sammy have killed that SEGA and now SEGA is a shadow of its former self - That's pretty sad but we can blame Sammy for that .
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It's mostly true, SEGA was the main source of innovation on console and with their death the console industry slowed dramatically after PS2 rode out and gave the Japanese industry their console output swan song. DS kept the Japanese output great but it was a handheld, so different category altogether.
Now the Japanese industry is mostly useless due to their predominantly mobile focus.
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It's just some sad fanboy drivel . I would only agree that the old SEGA is long dead and Sammy have killed that SEGA and now SEGA is a shadow of its former self - That's pretty sad but we can blame Sammy for that .
Always Kudos for your thoughts TA.
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YES.
YES! YES! YES!YES! and one NO!
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It's the like the article writer completely opted out Sony's recent titles, what Nintendo has planned too or has overlooked Sonic has become a somewhat respectable franchise.
Anyway I'd disagree, the industry seems to be in a good state thanks to the influx of indies and the Japanese gaming industry is coming back stronger than ever, seems a bit reactionary but they are definitely are more companies trying to exploit consumers so I'd agree with that sentiment.
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Anyway I'd disagree, the industry seems to be in a good state thanks to the influx of indies and the Japanese gaming industry is coming back stronger than ever, seems a bit reactionary but they are definitely are more companies trying to exploit consumers so I'd agree with that sentiment.
I agree. Although I think the likes of Vanillaware and Platimum Games are providing experiences that SEGA would otherwise give us.
Loving Dragon's Crown despite the whole controversy around it in addition to it's somewhat repetitive nature.
If more companies do what SEGA did, we'd have more innovation...but the Industry have spoken. They want CoD, FIFA and AssCreed to prevail! Hell...I know some people who HATE Sonic. :(
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They want CoD, FIFA and AssCreed to prevail! Hell...I know some people who HATE Sonic. :(
There' innovation just very little of it from SEGA sadly . Assains Creed was a new IP and a big risk - What new IP have we had from SEGA Japan this gen other than BD or Val ? . Even EA have taken more risks this gen with the likes of Mirror's Edge, Dead Space and on on , Capcom gave us 2 brand new IP every early in .
Now the Japanese industry is mostly useless due to their predominantly mobile focus.
Yep spot on and its killing the Japanse developers sadly
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The thought that the industry died is ludicrous. If it were dead we wouldn't be seeing a single game or console. Now I know the writer of the voxelarcade article didn't himself state that it is "dead", but he paints a very negative image of the industry that I disagree with.
I do, however, agree that the Dreamcast died because the industry was making a transition. I don't agree with the direction the industry has taken, but at this point it is what it is. George and I talked about the death of the Dreamcast in the latest podcast ( http://segabits.com/blog/2013/08/23/swingin-report-show-49-sonic-into-dreams/ ) and one of the things we talked about was if we felt that the Dreamcast was of the same generation as the PS2 and Xbox. I honestly feel that the Xbox and the PS2 in its later life were not of the same gen as the Dreamcast. With the Xbox, the tech was just so advanced compared to the DC. However, with the DC the tech was far more advanced than the other consoles at the time (N64, PS1). I think that like the Xbox, the Dreamcast was ahead of its time. However, in the case of the Xbox I don't think it did nearly as much as the DC did in terms of innovation.
Talking what "died" with the Dreamcast, I think the idea of arcade ports on disc sold at full price died. I mean, you rarely see arcade ports sold on disc nowadays. Something like After Burner Climax would have been a $50+ release on the Dreamcast, whereas now it's a $10 digital title. I feel that after the Dreamcast died, the belief that a disc-based game HAD to be a big budget title with hours of gameplay became more of the norm, while shorter arcade-style games had to be on a compilation disc or a digital title to be published.
I've found that I am much more of a fan of those types of games, which probably explains why I haven't played that many games this gen. In the DC days, there were only a handful of expansive big budget titles, which made it easy to play a ton of games as most were short arcade titles and a few were big AAA games. Now it seems to be the opposite, where the smaller arcade titles are the minority.
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It was about 2003 when the Industry changed imo...right when Sega started to go downhill too (not just becaming 3rd party)
It wasn't just Sega putting out interresting games from 1999 to 2001...there were loads of games like Jet Set Radio, Rez or Space Channel 5 out on PS1 and early PS2. Gitaroo Man; Mr. Misquito to name a few.
That died down after a a while, and only the more generic products came to the market from both Japan and the West.
I'd say only Clover and Sony Japan were the only ones delivering interresting games like Sega did during the Dreamcast and Saturn Era.
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It wasn't just Sega putting out interresting games from 1999 to 2001...there were loads of games like Jet Set Radio, Rez or Space Channel 5 out on PS1 and early PS2. Gitaroo Man; Mr. Misquito to name a few.
That died down after a a while, and only the more generic products came to the market from both Japan and the West.
I'd say only Clover and Sony Japan were the only ones delivering interresting games like Sega did during the Dreamcast and Saturn Era
Very True . There was lots of interesting and unusual games on the PS and lots either developed by or published by SONY. Ore-no Ryouri was one of the most original games I have ever played and its brilliant fun to boot
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Very True . There was lots of interesting and unusual games on the PS and lots either developed by or published by SONY. Ore-no Ryouri was one of the most original games I have ever played and its brilliant fun to boot
Yes stuff like that is what I mean.
Sega transitioned like the rest and put some quirky stuff on Handhelds like Feel the Magic or last year Rhythm Thief...but even on cheap systems like Wii or DS, they haven't a particular effort to stand out.
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I think we should all agree from this point on that the idea that the industry "died" along with Sega is objectively false, but instead direct the conversation to if the industry as a whole changed, the ways in which it changed, and what can and should be done about it if anything. The original article shoots itself in the foot with a title that instantly dooms it to be discarded as alarmist, but there's an interesting and worthwhile conversation to be had about the changes in the industry that were concurrent with Sega's dropping out of the console race then mutating as a third-party after the Sammy buyout.
I honestly think that a strong case can be made that while the industry certainly did not die, the shift in dynamics following Sega's drop from influence had a tangible effect on the direction that the industry as a whole was going. If it seems my perspective is mislead, please let me know, but I do get the strong impression that the loss of Sega's influence in the mainstream did effectively result in an industry that became focused far too heavily on brand above design. Nintendo's toy company approach combined with Sony and Microsoft's more Hollywood-oriented mentality have their merits (well, I have almost nothing good to say about Microsoft in the console world personally, but I can empathize with their fans), yet I believe that the former balance afforded by a company like Sega at the forefront resulted in an industry which pushed itself a lot harder to constantly reinvent games themselves and come into their own as an entirely unique medium.
Plus, really, I don't think that consoles are going to be a viable platform down the road (in fact, I don't think they're one NOW), which the original article seems to be having an identity crisis over. Dreamcast used some hybrid elements of both traditional console design and PC-oriented cross-compatibility, but the "It's a PC with arbitrary restrictions because Xbox" thing paired with the incredible ease of building a computer in the modern world has got to come to its logical conclusion sooner or later. I don't think it's because somebody did anything wrong platform-wise either, it's just that technology has finally caught up with itself in this regard. I think that's just a coincidental chronological coincidence with Sega's dropping out, though -- really, ever since the crash consoles were just dedicated computers (case in point: "Famicom"), we're just now finally outgrowing that stage, though.
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It was about 2003 when the Industry changed imo...right when Sega started to go downhill too (not just becaming 3rd party)
It wasn't just Sega putting out interresting games from 1999 to 2001...there were loads of games like Jet Set Radio, Rez or Space Channel 5 out on PS1 and early PS2. Gitaroo Man; Mr. Misquito to name a few.
That died down after a a while, and only the more generic products came to the market from both Japan and the West.
I'd say only Clover and Sony Japan were the only ones delivering interresting games like Sega did during the Dreamcast and Saturn Era.
I can't help but think that Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Chibi-Robo, Odama, Cubivore, and the Capcom Five may have gotten their ticket to ride from the former arrangement as well. Honestly, I think that the industry creatively peaked at the turn of the millennium, which is unfortunate because it could just as easily have kept going. I'm not so blind as to think that Sega were the only creative ones out there, but damned if these kinds of games didn't seem to've come to the forefront because of their influence. Good on Platinum and those PlayStation second-parties, though.
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Games like Journey and Machinarium show me that the industry is alive and well.
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How influential was Sega outside of the Arcade market tough?
I recall...Sonic, Phantasy Star early on, Jet Set Radio, and then music games by UGA and then Shenmue.
Personally alot of good Sega games merely were already established concepts done really well, such Panzer Dragoon, Shinobi, Streets of Rage etc. etc.
The Arcade market tough is a whole different story. It just so happened that in the 80's and 90's, the Arcade market overlapped heavily with the mentality of console gaming, with fighting games, racing games etc. etc. making it seem that Sega moved console gaming forward when it was initially just designed for Arcade.
As it is, Sega still does innovative things for Arcade, for what the market is still willing to be provided. And that market is very much less so focused on traditional games as we know it, and not very relevant to us.
Companies are still ripping of Sega with Konami's clones of Border Break and maimai, and Sega were actually the first ones to do Card games for Arcade.
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Hmm. I've always seen Sega as more of an Arcade publisher. Their consoles were just an awesome way to get them to the general consumer who didn't want to spend quarters and their evenings away in smokey, dark arcades and were willing to shell out the extra dough without buying a full, dedicated arcade machine. In my eyes, Sega's still doing that, with releases of Miku on the PS3 today, and some of the past releases, aside from Binary Domain and Anarchy Reigns, but those were more experiments for their home consoles, much like ToeJam & Earl were.
Now with arcades being less and less, Sega doesn't have much to pump out to home consoles, or don't see people interested in that sort of stuff with things like Call of Duty or Assassins Creed. I do find it interesting though that Sega's helping Namco in releasing Dead or Alive Ultimate to Arcades. I'm actually surprised the US isn't seeing a huge jump with fighting game arcades, but then again, they're still really expensive and the ROI on those things can take years...
Someone mentioned something about Free to Play games and subscriptions.. I honestly think if the Dreamcast were to be around today, or any incarnation by Sega on the Dreamcast, we'd see that from Sega. I'm sure they'd port over Phantasy Star Online 2 on that thing right away and slap subscription fees all over that, after you downloaded it from their servers. I really think Sega would've gone down the same path as Microsoft or Sony. Otherwise, they'd be in the same boat Nintendo is and not make the machine do much else other than play games. More people are using their game systems as an all-in-one entertainment machine these days.
I guess I'm just in a strange transition though, as I'm spending more time on shorter, older games because of my recent hobby of getting into arcade systems and don't have time to sit and play online in massive multiplayer games, or games that take 60+ hours to get through. I'm wanting a quick, exciting, exillerating rush of a game fix that House of the Dead 4 and Outrun gie me. It just sorta sucks I have to drive an hour and 20 minutes to a GameWorks to get that perfect feeling though.
So yeah, just give me back my edgy, gritty sega that made awesome beat 'em ups, shooters, and racing games and let me sit down with an arcade stick and whatever system Sega thinks can handle their arcade games!
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Had SEGA continued with consoles and was somehow able to stand toe to toe with Sony and MS, I could see them having a very strong digital service.
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Indies and part of Sony still do a pretty good job making arcade-like games IMO, Assault Android Cactus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q-STAmqbv0) and Resogun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XGwZ0kGO28) are pretty good examples of such games.
Also Platinum Games in general.
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I think SEGA is missing a huge opportunity not porting their arcade games on PSN/XBLA/other digital services. After the games are played out (2spicy, SEGA Race TV etc) they need to do a port.
The game is already done, hire someone to port it to consoles. Doubt there are many playable 2 Spicy arcade machines in Japan.
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I think SEGA is missing a huge opportunity not porting their arcade games on PSN/XBLA/other digital services. After the games are played out (2spicy, SEGA Race TV etc) they need to do a port.
The game is already done, hire someone to port it to consoles. Doubt there are many playable 2 Spicy arcade machines in Japan.
I have been wondering for a while why Sega doesn't just port their arcade games to consoles. I doubt that it'd cost a lot to port, so it'd be easy money. There are so many good looking arcade games by Sega that me and a lot of others will never get to play because of those games being arcade-only.
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I don't think the Industry is "dead" so to speak without a first party SEGA, but it is certainly "lacking".
Not one of the big three have constantly made new IPs for their consoles like SEGA have. At best, Nintendo's Handheld side has satisfied....and Sony are trying to learn that too on the Vita/PSP....but it's not as innovative since they have relied on the gimmicks of the machine more than SEGA ever did for theirs.
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I don't think the Industry is "dead" so to speak without a first party SEGA, but it is certainly "lacking".
Not one of the big three have constantly made new IPs for their consoles like SEGA have. At best, Nintendo's Handheld side has satisfied....and Sony are trying to learn that too on the Vita/PSP....but it's not as innovative since they have relied on the gimmicks of the machine more than SEGA ever did for theirs.
That's not true at all . SONY have made a ridiculous number of new IP for the PS2 and with the PS3 they've again done pretty well with new IP like Last of Us, Drakes, Infamous, Resistance, Little Big Planet, Motostorm to name but a few and SONY are going to launch new IP this year like with Puppeteer, Beyond 2 Souls .
It not so much to do with the death of SEGA and more to do with the death of the Japanese industry that's to blame imo . Japense developers no longer take risks and have been totally outclassed by Western corps these days thank to Japanse developers taking the safe and easy options and backing HH
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I think it's unfortunate that while SEGA West is putting together an incredibly strong collection of Western studios, people still cannot accept Relic, Creative Assembly, and Sports Interactive as internal.
George and I talked about this a bit on the podcast. I noted that I'm kind of sad that there are walls up between SEGA fans and Relic, Creative Assembly, and Sports Interactive fans. I say take down the walls!
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I think it's unfortunate that while SEGA West is putting together an incredibly strong collection of Western studios, people still cannot accept Relic, Creative Assembly, and Sports Interactive as internal.
George and I talked about this a bit on the podcast. I noted that I'm kind of sad that there are walls up between SEGA fans and Relic, Creative Assembly, and Sports Interactive fans. I say take down the walls!
To be fair, I'll respond by each studio:
Sports Int.: I actually get the apprehension with these guys the most 1. Most Americans (a large swathe of SEGA's fans) think soccer blows, 2. large parts of the core gaming community (which many SEGA fans are part of) frown upon sports games in general, 3. even the FBM fans I do know agree that the oft-joked title "Spreadsheet manager" isn't far from the truth.
Relic: RTS as a genre is very alienating; the amount of dedication to become decent is much like a fighting game on consoles, one must accept that becoming good at multi means getting your ass handed to you repetitively until you learn. Console folk should be ok with Relic. If you aren't, go buy Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine right now, it's a rather good TPS and shows Relic is probably better suited to multiple genres than most might think.
Creative Assembly: Also alienating though Total War is one of the best ways to jump into RTS due to its partially turn-based format. However I can also get apprehension with these guys if you are a console SEGA gamer, Viking wasn't the best impression, though I never played Spartan: Total Warrior.
If you want to check out Relic/CA and give these SEGA studios a shot, I'd suggest Dawn of War II and Shogun II or Napoleon as your entry points to them. Dawn of War II forgoes base building entirely and focuses purely on a very small/select few units. Whatever you do, use them to work your way towards the first Company of Heroes, the best real time strategy game of all-time.
It does suck though, I have a friend who played Starcraft and refuses to ever give another RTS a shot. It angers me because Starcraft (often referred to as Spamcraft by the Company of Heroes community) or even Warcraft represent so much of what's wrong with the RTS genre.
Finally, take solace that your beloved SEGA is once more king; just not in the way you remember them, now they are kings of the beloved strategy genre on PC.
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That's not true at all . SONY have made a ridiculous number of new IP for the PS2 and with the PS3 they've again done pretty well with new IP like Last of Us, Drakes, Infamous, Resistance, Little Big Planet, Motostorm to name but a few and SONY are going to launch new IP this year like with Puppeteer, Beyond 2 Souls .
It not so much to do with the death of SEGA and more to do with the death of the Japanese industry that's to blame imo . Japense developers no longer take risks and have been totally outclassed by Western corps these days thank to Japanse developers taking the safe and easy options and backing HH
Okay then, I admit that Sony have made new IPs consistently, but they never seem to stick with them unless they sell gangbusters (Even SEGA stuck by Panzer Dragoon when it didn't sell that well, although modern SEGA is just the same as Sony in terms of not supporting any of their other IPs, however they seem to support Yakuza well enough).
Parappa never really got a sequel (although it got a spin-off) and some of their IPs have died because of the lack of marketing, but it was a great concept. You also don't really see them support their Japanese division all that well (unless you count the Portable Teams, who have a great reign on what they do).
In regards to the Japanese Industry dying, I actually blame this on their refusal to adapt to the market trends. Call of Duty sells despite the questionable quality. Assassin's Creed sells despite being an even more stealthier game than Splinter Cell (both series are pretty similar) and you have those MMOs that make money such as Starcraft II, World of Warcraft and possibly Diablo (I don't care for any MMO...not even Phantasy Star Online).
What the Japanese are doing is trying to either copy the Western Studios (Capcom), attempt to HD their franchises at the cost of making a blander experience (Metal Gear Solid 4 and Final Fantasy 13) or just sticking to the handheld market only (Nihon Falcom) and ignoring the west entirely with the portable games (SEGA, Square Enix).
I don't mind the direction of portable games...but they won't localise the games as the west don't like portable experiences (and they damn should!), if the Japanese Studios can't adapt to HD, then they'll stick to handhelds...and even that market is shrinking and turning into freemiums to which they sadly won't survive despite the potential revenue they assume they will get (Breath of Fire 6).
I can sadly see gamers turning to PC (something I don't want to do...since I use my PC for research only and buying), to which Japanese Devs such as Nihon Falcom have adapted to really well! The consoles are the only place where the Japanese Developers are struggling with, and that is where most of the profit margins are, but they don't know how to manage R&D costs like the west can (well...the sensible ones anyway), so what we are seeing now is what I just mentioned. Less risks, trying to change to our way of making games (which doesn't work for most of them) and just overall lengthy timescales.
Of course, you can disagree with my points since we both have different ideas on where th e industry is going, but I hope you respect my thoughts on the industry as I will to you.
Anyway, I will end this saying that I love Dragon's Crown and wish Vanillaware all the success!
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Okay then, I admit that Sony have made new IPs consistently, but they never seem to stick with them unless they sell gangbusters (Even SEGA stuck by Panzer Dragoon when it didn't sell that well, although modern SEGA is just the same as Sony in terms of not supporting any of their other IPs, however they seem to support Yakuza well enough).
Again that's not really true at all . SONY made a follow up to ICO ( a game that didn't sell great) sequels to the likes of Locorocco , Siren, Motor Toon and plenty of other IP that didn't sell in huge numbers.
Parappa never really got a sequel (although it got a spin-off) and some of their IPs have died because of the lack of marketing, but it was a great concep
Sorry it did get a sequel on the PS2 .
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Sony is greatly supportive of IP's that didn't sell that well. Infamous, Motorstorm, LittleBigPlanet...
however they seem to support Yakuza well enough
They have been milking it as much as Sonic
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Sony is greatly supportive of IP's that didn't sell that well. Infamous, Motorstorm, LittleBigPlanet...
The original Little Big Planet has sold over 4.5 million, the original Motorstorm did over 3.5 million. Even the titles mentioned such as ICO (Over 600,000 sold) Locoroco, Siren etc sell alright considering the budget.
They have been milking it as much as Sonic
I would presume he means Western support, which when you look at Yakuza's sales numbers here, it's a wonder why they even bother to bring the titles here. The sales of niche titles look like Halo compared to Yakuza.
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Again that's not really true at all . SONY made a follow up to ICO ( a game that didn't sell great) sequels to the likes of Locorocco , Siren, Motor Toon and plenty of other IP that didn't sell in huge numbers.
Sorry it did get a sequel on the PS2 .
I would never call Shadow of the Collosus a sequel despite being in the same universe. A Spiritual Successor, yes.
Also, you're defending Sony's Japanese Team franchises, which are likely the smaller teams compared to Sony's more Worldwide Studios...who's to say that Siren, Locoroco sell well on the lower margin vs Twisted Metal and Motorstorm? I don't think the Japanese Side gets as much of a budget vs the other teams, so they have to make sequels to existing franchises and occasionally try newer things just to keep that budget flowing. Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.
Is it bad that I only just heard of this game now? Talk about slipping under the carpet. :\
Regarding Infamous and Motorstorm, they sold very well (Motorstorm in the millions), I don't see how they can not be supported given they are likely the middle ground in Sony's profit margins that they did well enough to at least make another one.
I actually retract my statement about Yakuza after the recent announcement, and when you say that SEGA milks the franchise....you mean in Japan...so to a point, yes...they do "milk" it, but it's their "Sonic" for that region, which doesn't concern our side of the world (anymore at least).
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Motorstorm did over 3.5 million. Even the titles mentioned such as ICO (Over 600,000 sold) Locoroco, Siren etc sell alright considering the budget
Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.
Also, you're defending Sony's Japanese Team franchises, which are likely the smaller teams compared to Sony's more Worldwide Studios...who's to say that Siren, Locoroco sell well on the lower margin vs Twisted Metal and Motorstorm
What?. SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and bst funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon
Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.
Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying
I would never call Shadow of the Collosus a sequel despite being in the same universe
Think like that and Saga is never a sequel to Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Shadown Dancer not a sequel to Shinobi.
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Let's be honest here...Sony seems to not have very appealing franchises.
Stop stating opinions as facts.
Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying
Stop getting upset and throwing accusations at others for having different opinions.
Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.
What?. SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and bst funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon
You're saying that Locoroco had the same budget and team size as Motorstorm or Twisted Metal. Yes, Japan Studio is huge. But unlike most American studios, they have more than two teams working there. Most (if not all) of the staff at Evolution worked on one Motorstorm game, while just a small portion of the staff at Japan Studio worked on Locoroco.
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You're saying that Locoroco had the same budget and team size as Motorstorm or Twisted Metal.
I say that GT 5 had a Budget bigger than all those games put together . Try $60 Million dollars and counting .
Stop getting upset and throwing accusations
I don't get upset . I'm just pointing out mistruths, that's all.
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Locoroco and the like of Siren didn't sell that great and ICO sold in limited numbers (more so at full price) . And if you want play that game the likes of Zwei sold well -given its budget.
But what are you comparing sales to? You mentioned budget, which exactly what Locoroco and Siren have had too, so yes, they sold well given their budgets too.
What? SONY Japan studios are some of the biggest and best funded in the SONY group and please don't give me this rubbish about lower margins . Zwei in Japan was a great seller on the Saturn, so was the original Panzer Dragoon
Oh, so God of War and Uncharted didn't have bigger budgets than ICO Team or Japan Studio?
When you mentioned that ICO selling in limited copies, that indicates that the budget wasn't all that big.
Given that Saturn sold much better than in the west, using the Japanese Sales as an example makes it sound like Zwei and PD was a blockbuster hit worldwide. (I love Panzer Dragoon as well, so it's a shame not many mainstream gamers know about it)
Lets be honest you've just got in it for SONY and to make out that the likes of GT, God Of War , LittleBigPlanet, Killzone , Hot Shots Golf aren't appealing IP is just pushing it a bit . Compared to SEGA current IP (Sonic, more Sonic and Yakuza and more Yakuza, Project Diva ) SONY and well most corps are well out in front both in terms of new IP and IP worth buying
Think like that and Saga is never a sequel to Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Shadown Dancer not a sequel to Shinobi.
Wha? That's a pretty big accusation when I owned more Sony consoles than SEGA ones (I will admit this as well).
None of those franchises interest me (if you said Uncharted, then yes, that one does), doesn't mean that they are bad....just that their appeal isn't as strong as Nintendo or perhaps Microsoft's franchises (that's also debatable).
Sony have a good network for third party exclusives and perhaps even a good line of their first party franchises, but what I was debating on was whether Sony's franchises are as good a line up as SEGAs...is it a bad thing that I think SEGA has the better line up, especially on a SEGA Site?
May as well call Shadow of the Colossus ICO 2 then. The difference between our comparisons is that SEGAs franchises all have common mechanics, settings and gameplay. ICO plays 100% different to SotC. Does Shadow Dancer play differently to Shinobi or Zwei plays different to Panzer Dragoon? if you wanted a better example of the Panzer Dragoon series, why didn't you mention Saga, which has different gamplay?
Stop stating opinions as facts.
Where exactly did I mention that it's a fact? The term "Let's be honest here", doesn't state that I made it a fact. You can disagree with my term if you wish, but again, Sony's franchises sell less than Nintendo's franchises, and that IS a fact.
I'll add this last thing so I am not accused as Anti-Sony. I have played Uncharted, Motorstorm, WipeOut as well as Medieval, Parappa, the early Crash/Spyro games growing up. I am allowed my opinion to state that despite the games being good, some of Sony's First party line up isn't very strong.
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But what are you comparing sales to? You mentioned budget, which exactly what Locoroco and Siren have had too, so yes, they sold well given their budgets too
Lets gets a few things straight . I wasn't the one talking of budgets and all that . I simply made the point that SONY have plenty of new and original IP and have made sequels to IP that hasn't sold that great . SEGA, SONY and the rest will never make a sequel to a game that sells next to nothing.
Oh, so God of War and Uncharted didn't have bigger budgets than ICO Team or Japan Studio
Uncharted would have cost more given its a PS 3 title . But to put into contest God Of War 3 cost SONY something like 35 million dollars , GT 5 cost SONY 60 million dollars . So SONY Japan also are well supported
When you mentioned that ICO selling in limited copies, that indicates that the budget wasn't all that big.
It would have cost a fair bit to make , but it sold it limited numbers (more so at full price )
Given that Saturn sold much better than in the west, using the Japanese Sales as an example makes it sound like Zwei and PD was a blockbuster hit worldwid
No not at all (and I guess you mean Japan) Just that the 1st Saturn game sold well over 300,000 copies(hence why a sequel was ordered straight away) and its sequel sold in similar numbers, even better I think - I think at one stage it was even out selling Biohazard on the PS in Japan . Now Saturn budgets were nothing like to a PS2 or PS3 game and the main Panzer Dragoon Team was very small and a Team that made both games in under 2 years - That really helps when it comes to a cost of a game . ICO and SOC on the other hand were each in development for 4+ plus year and where development costs were way above that of a Saturn title .
None of those franchises interest me
That's says it all. If in the height of Sega Vs SONY Sony Defence Force members said the likes of Shenmue, JSR, F355 , Space Channel 5 don't interest me and so on, no doubt you would have had enough to say . Just because you or I don't like them, doesn't mean they aren't great games . SONY has plenty of great IP and more to the point it has great current IP- Whats SEGA got to offer the 'console' gamer this generation the world over other than Yakuza or Sonic ? - That is the real issue with SEGA Japan
May as well call Shadow of the Colossus ICO 2 then
Well its more a prequel to ICO
Does Shadow Dancer play differently to Shinobi or Zwei plays different to Panzer Dragoon? if you wanted a better example of the Panzer Dragoon series, why didn't you mention Saga, which has different gamplay
Huh ? I did mention Panzer Dragoon Saga
that SEGAs franchises all have common mechanics, settings and gameplay. ICO plays 100% different to SotC
Pushing it a bit I think aren't we . Castlevaina SOTN plays vastly different to Part IV yet everyone see's it as a sequel . Wonder Boy II and III Ect play vastly different to Part 1 and we all see them as sequels . Toe Jam And Earl 2 plays and looks completely different from that of Part 1 (yet we all count that as a sequel)
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Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...
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Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...
They do that with any highly successful console franchise, see also, Phantasy Star, Sakura Taisen and Sonic the Hedgehog.
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Sega died when they annualized Yakuza imo. Or at least limited their potential extremly...
SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.
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SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.
Yep that's the truth :(
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They do that with any highly successful console franchise, see also, Phantasy Star, Sakura Taisen and Sonic the Hedgehog.
Sonic and Phantasy Star only got that treatment till the mid 90's. Sakura Taisen had a 2 year cycle for games.
I guess I'm just dissapointed with the prospect of AM4+Smilebit from 2003, being the premiere console development team for Sega. The result of just yearly Yakuza games is dissapointing to say the least. I mean in the end I guess I'm just nitpicking, since it IS a good franchise but still. The team should have been like Platinum Games and make a variety of games. Something like Binary Domain should have come way sooner, and way more often.
SEGA "died" when died Isao Okawa and almost completely when it was sold to Sammy.
Yep that's the truth :(
I disagree with those sentiments. When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega. Hisao Oguchi took over and it's not like he's some kind of parasite, since he was CEO for 1995-7, and was an actual developer behind many classics.
When Sammy bought them in 04, nothing really changed from the drastic change in direction that went on since 03, with a much bigger focus on the Japanese Arcadesphere, and them dropping heavily on big console projects from Smilebit and AM2.
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Sonic and Phantasy Star only got that treatment till the mid 90's. Sakura Taisen had a 2 year cycle for games.
So then would you not claim that SEGA died in the 90s instead? (Also Sonic had 5 titles released yearly straight from the beginning)
I guess I'm just dissapointed with the prospect of AM4+Smilebit from 2003, being the premiere console development team for Sega. The result of just yearly Yakuza games is dissapointing to say the least. I mean in the end I guess I'm just nitpicking, since it IS a good franchise but still. The team should have been like Platinum Games and make a variety of games. Something like Binary Domain should have come way sooner, and way more often.
I know what you mean as I would like to see the team expand on other genres and new series but Binary Domain's absolute failure was massive and damning, it was enough for SEGA to completely (Falsely) reconsider their position in the market.
Even though Yakuza is my favourite gaming series, I would have liked to see new IPs, but using Platinum as an example just goes to show the problem. They have only one and seven commercial successes and even that one title was based on an established franchise.
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I disagree with those sentiments. When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega. Hisao Oguchi took over and it's not like he's some kind of parasite, since he was CEO for 1995-7, and was an actual developer behind many classics.
Yeah, the year 2002 and also partly 03 were still great years for SEGA, but this because to the long wave of investments and previous decisions, moreover, in those years, especially the 03, even financially things were at least inverted...a shame :(
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So then would you not claim that SEGA died in the 90s instead? (Also Sonic had 5 titles released yearly straight from the beginning)
Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).
And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.
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Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).
And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.
You forgot Chu Chu Rocket. Four new IPs.
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Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).
Yakuza is as much as SEGA's mascot series in Japan as Sonic is in the West though.
You're overlooking Samba de Amigo, but it's not fair to compare the two in that time period. Back then 20 - 30 people could create a new game, to make a major new title these days you have to employ over 200 people. Working on a new IP has both potential financial risk and opportunity costs.
It's a tough one to balance but it makes sense, especially as the Japanese branch is the only one willing to support the products.
And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.
Since 2000, Phantasy Star has had one new major entry with the exception of 2011.
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Since 2000, Phantasy Star has had one new major entry with the exception of 2011.
I see it more as versions, personally
Also Samba and Chu Chu Rocket were in 2000.
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I see it more as versions, personally
Also Samba and Chu Chu Rocket were in 2000.
I wouldn't call them versions, they're mostly full blown titles and none have been priced under 5000 yen.
Ah right, I overlooked you said a 8 years span.
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Back then 20 - 30 people could create a new game, to make a major new title these days you have to employ over 200 people. Working on a new IP has both potential financial risk and opportunity costs.
You like an endless excuse train for SEGA. Sure for the bigger IP you need Big teams, but Samba was made at a time when SEGA had 200 staff on Shenmue and over 100 on Sonic Adv is still can be done even today .
When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega.
After the late great Okawa-san died its started the slow demise of SEGA . Sure SEGA did really well , but the destruction of the Teams and the Sammy take over had really killed SEGA. Gone are the days of SEGA leading the way with GFX or taking risks or new spins on established IP and I seriously doubt under Okawa-san would have ever treated a great like Suzuki-san the way he was.
Sure there's a lot of talent in side the group, but its wasted under Sammy -with its focus on quick and easy fixes .
I would have liked to see new IPs, but using Platinum as an example just goes to show the problem. They have only one and seven commercial successes and even that one title was based on an established franchise.
I agree it's pointless , but for different reasons . To me we should be comparing SEGA to the likes of Capcom and on that front SEGA behide in Tech, On-Line and in new IP . Sure milk the good selling IP, but also make new major IP and on that score SEGA is way behind the likes of Capcom
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You like an endless excuse train for SEGA. Sure for the bigger IP you need Big teams, but Samba was made at a time when SEGA had 200 staff on Shenmue and over 100 on Sonic Adv is still can be done even today .
Give it a rest, you're the one who goes around screwing up topics, going on random tangents and seem to live in an alternate reality to most of us.
I agree it's pointless , but for different reasons . To me we should be comparing SEGA to the likes of Capcom and on that front SEGA behide in Tech, On-Line and in new IP . Sure milk the good selling IP, but also make new major IP and on that score SEGA is way behind the likes of Capcom
Even your darling Capcom is struggling and you have always had it in for SEGA so come seat down and talk to us when you are ready to remove some of your bias.
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Give it a rest, you're the one who goes around screwing up topics
Calling out SEGA and saying that should and could do better ? is now a crime ? . Sorry SEGA need a good kicking of late to wake them up. People need to get a grip if that's somehow offensive
Even your darling Capcom is struggling and you have always had it in for SEGA
What ? I lived and breathed SEGA for years , but now they're a shadow of the old SEGA one used to love - SEGA died with the XBox . Capcom are doing ok and here's the difference have IP that sells well World wide and in the millions, have made brand new IP this gen like with Lost Planet, Dead Rising Dragon's Dogma and already have a New IP and impressive Next Gen engine to go
All that with just 1000 staff, less than half of that of SEGA Japan . Shows you it can be done, if your pipe lines and Teams are up to next gen levels. SEGA could learn a lot and do a lot if it tried
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Calling out SEGA and saying that should and could do better ? is now a crime ? . Sorry SEGA need a good kicking of late to wake them up. People need to get a grip if that's somehow offensive
No, you have consistently ruined topics by going on strange and non-related tangents that make no sense. You do not just have to ask me, ask any member, any, on this board and they will say you have a reputation for destroying any form of rational debate.
What ? I lived and breathed SEGA for years , but now they're a shadow of the old SEGA one used to love - SEGA died with the XBox . Capcom are doing ok and here's the difference have IP that sells well World wide and in the millions, have made brand new IP this gen like with Lost Planet, Dead Rising Dragon's Dogma and already have a New IP and impressive Next Gen engine to go
All that with just 1000 staff, less than half of that of SEGA Japan . Shows you it can be done, if your pipe lines and Teams are up to next gen levels. SEGA could learn a lot and do a lot if it tried
It doesn't matter if you liked SEGA at any time, the fact you are guided by a negative outlook because of what you want shows you are not in any right mind to discuss anything ojectively.
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After the late great Okawa-san died its started the slow demise of SEGA . Sure SEGA did really well , but the destruction of the Teams and the Sammy take over had really killed SEGA. Gone are the days of SEGA leading the way with GFX or taking risks or new spins on established IP and I seriously doubt under Okawa-san would have ever treated a great like Suzuki-san the way he was.
Sure there's a lot of talent in side the group, but its wasted under Sammy -with its focus on quick and easy fixes.
Most of the time when Sega were leading in tech it was through the arcade machines being a ahead a generation. Through Arcades dying, they coudn't do that anymore, due to the market shrinking extremly, and making their games accordingly. And they still woudn't have intergrated their teams for big-budget console games, cause they still made more money on Arcades. Sammy can't be blamed for this, that was all Sega's decision.
Now when it comes to the console market, I still think Sega made great looking games with Sonic, Valkyria looked great as well - and at least Yakuza's cutscenes look brilliant.
Maybe I'm just not the one to judge on graphics (personally really can't tell anymore what looks next-gen and what not) - I don't think graphics are really the problem with Sega thus far anyway.
Also I just don't think you can blame Sammy for internal development problems, such as Yu Suzuki's situation. It happened before, with Hisao Oguchi most likely talking to Suzuki extensively, and in the end him deciding to lead a smaller team. Anyway I just don't think think Sega was a victim to anything, they were their own enemy.
Also Sega's publishing efforts should be commended.
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Most of the time when Sega were leading in tech it was through the arcade machines being a ahead a generation. Through Arcades dying, they coudn't do that anymore, due to the market shrinking extremly, and making their games accordingly
At the time of the XBox SEGA was using MS hardware in the Arcades and yet its Teams were able to produced some fablous graphics on all the major systems be that F-Zero on the Cube, JSRF/Orta on the Xbox or Yakuza 2 and VF 4 Evo on the PS2, hell even Monkey Ball 2 looked really good
In anything SEGA should have had a real advantage over most thanks to it using PC based Hardware in the Arcades and yet Capcom and the likes of Fromsoftware seems to have gotten to grips more with this current tech .
And they still woudn't have intergrated their teams for big-budget console games, cause they still made more money on Arcades. Sammy can't be blamed for this, that was all Sega's decision
Merging Team like Sonic team with UGA was SEGA doing, but since then and under Sammy all the teams were merged in to one group with one central budget - That is Sammy fault, also under Sammy SEGA R&D has been slashed and to me that's shown in the Tech and the lack of flare from SEGA Japan these days .
guided by a negative outlook
That's only because there's little to cheer for or look forward to from SEGA these day's
You do not just have to ask me, ask any member, any, on this board and they will say you have a reputation for destroying any form of rational debate
And is this from the SEGA fan club ?: That ones that can't take people finding fault with SEGA;
You can be the biggest support of a Club/Team and love all their stand for and who they are and yet have a go at the manager or chairman for things not being right at the Club, that doesn't make you anything less of a fan.
You and the SEGA Club can live in this little bubble and try and make out things are ok at SEGA. The truth is hardly anybody talkss up SEGA these days, gone are the days of IGN and the Press is camping outside the SEGA HQ for the interviews and the latest builds of the next big game. Just have a quick sample at the boards on the net to see what people think of SEGA. Sure you can make out they're not fans , they don't count and all that .
The trouble is with SEGA taking little risks , retreating to Japan and handhelds Its doing its self little better to get its name back. Isn't that what we want . Just look at the this board , Its spend more time celebrating SEGA past , than alking or looking forward to what's coming next from SEGA Japan
Sonic, Valkyria looked great as well - and at least Yakuza's cutscenes look brilliant.
Sonic tech was really nice, Valkyria was world beating imo - SEGA just never backed it or really built on it and instead took the safe route and made the sequel for the PSP . Yakuza blew me away on the PS2 , but I've been really unimpressed with it on the PS3 and the yearly sequels are just too much for any team imo . Binary Domain was amazing - a true old type of SEGA game but again SEGA never pushed it and will never build on it and give the IP another try .
SEGA needs more IP like BD early in for the next generation, but already its taking the safe route of more Yakuza even for the PS3 - This after Nagoshi-san said the series was finished on the PS3 . Really a New BD, New IP and PSO 2 for the next gen consoles would be better and get us looking forward to SEGA next gen attack , but instead we get more Yakuza , just a year after the last one - Giving the Team next to no chance of pushing the tech on the PS4 , much less really try much new in gameplay terms
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That's only because there's little to cheer for or look forward to from SEGA these day's
Again, there is stuff, however you will not look forward to it because what you want is not there.
And is this from the SEGA fan club ?: That ones that can't take people finding fault with SEGA;
No, this is from the rational minded individual, I won't name the active members because I don't want them to be brought into this discussion, but you chased away Orta because you could not stand anyone disagreeing with your perceived notion on how fantastic the Hedgehog Engine is.
If you honestly think we are all here to circle jerk off SEGA then you are as always, delusional. People want grounded debate based on facts, not your merry little pack of misinformation you always pull out, character assassinations and flat out lies. Your insane analogies need to stop, but this is classic you, serve to move the subject away from the core matter.
Learn to debate properly.
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At the time of the XBox SEGA was using MS hardware in the Arcades and yet its Teams were able to produced some fablous graphics on all the major systems be that F-Zero on the Cube, JSRF/Orta on the Xbox or Yakuza 2 and VF 4 Evo on the PS2, hell even Monkey Ball 2 looked really good
In anything SEGA should have had a real advantage over most thanks to it using PC based Hardware in the Arcades and yet Capcom and the likes of Fromsoftware seems to have gotten to grips more with this current tech .
Merging Team like Sonic team with UGA was SEGA doing, but since then and under Sammy all the teams were merged in to one group with one central budget - That is Sammy fault, also under Sammy SEGA R&D has been slashed and to me that's shown in the Tech and the lack of flare from SEGA Japan these days .
Sega had worked under a united corporate R&D group for most of it's life, they were going back to how it was basicilly.
And did Sammy cut R&D money? The matter is Sega spend alot of money but not on in-house teams. Sega's Japan logic is that internally, they should just cater to the domestic market, and we give SoA and SoE money to make money internationally.
And with the tech...of course Yakuza won't look like the best game around, it's catering to a much smaller market.
I just don't think Sammy has to do with all of this, they have over 50 companies under their umbrella, I doubt they have that much influence on spending on money either internally or on 2nd party studios or whatever.
Also not everyone agrees with your notion, that in order for Sega to come back they need to spend lots of money and go big on ambitious new engines. Many loved Sega for the small and quirky games, that could hypothetically be on download services.
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Sega had worked under a united corporate R&D group for most of it's life, they were going back to how it was basicilly.
When the Teams were split into 9 subs they each had their own funding and budgets to handle and that sparked a real golden age of creativity . These days we hardly know the teams , what they're up too or what the hell have happened to the likes of AM#1.
Even in the old SEGA enterprises days the teams still have their own identity and each with 3 or 4 lines . These days , even the major teams seem to only have 2 lines and their output is way short of what we came to expect from SEGA
And with the tech...of course Yakuza won't look like the best game around, it's catering to a much smaller market
That shouldn't come into it really. Each Yakuza gets a lavish budget and a huge team , yet the tech is often outclassed by the likes of FromSoftware can come up with ( with just 400 staff) , never mind the tech behind Lost Planet and so on .
hat in order for Sega to come back they need to spend lots of money and go big on ambitious new engines.
Not asking for that . Just for SEGA to build on some of the engines its already made and share the tech between the Teams - get a good pool of tech and the piple lines up to speed . It's sad that tech like Canvas and Hedgehog wasn't built on and improved for 2nd and 3d generations of game- Like Ubi did with Anval or Capcom did with the Framework .
And did Sammy cut R&D money
Yes by $25 Million dollars
People want grounded debate based on facts, not your merry little pack of misinformation you always pull out
Is this coming from the one that makes out the PS4 already won ?. You want a grounded debate fine , I can do that, but it works both ways ...
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Is this coming from the one that makes out the PS4 already won ?. You want a grounded debate fine , I can do that, but it works both ways ...
You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Learn to counter points instead of making up make believe arguments in your head.
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You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Learn to counter points instead of making up make believe arguments in your head.
So how else is one meant to interpret that SONY 'owns' the next generation and how did we put it... They're F-in 'unstoppable' . That's not grounded talk to me
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When the Teams were split into 9 subs they each had their own funding and budgets to handle and that sparked a real golden age of creativity . These days we hardly know the teams , what they're up too or what the hell have happened to the likes of AM#1.
Even in the old SEGA enterprises days the teams still have their own identity and each with 3 or 4 lines . These days , even the major teams seem to only have 2 lines and their output is way short of what we came to expect from SEGA
The days when Sega had 9 teams all with console games, and barely reliance on publishing other peoples games, only lasted from about 2000-2002 (with preperation for games before).
Most of the times, Sega had 3 console teams, and 3 Arcade teams, AM4's Spikeout could be put into AM2, and AM5 Sega Rally games, and Touring Championship were pretty much part AM3.
Oh and AM1 is practicilly Sega China these days, with dev support (Sonic games, PSO2), Ports, and their own Arcade games (Golden Gun, Transformers Arcade game, K.O Drive).
And they have a second pipeline that does constant updates on the Sengoku Taisen Arcade game (and some other things).
And consolidation had to be done, itwas easier putting out a ton of games back then and required far less people.
That shouldn't come into it really. Each Yakuza gets a lavish budget and a huge team , yet the tech is often outclassed by the likes of FromSoftware can come up with ( with just 400 staff) , never mind the tech behind Lost Planet and so on .
Yakuza is expected to sell 500k and the games you mentioned 1mil. Yakuza had 1 year dev cycle, and the others 2 years and are aimed worldwide. Sure that has some influence on the overall quality.
Not asking for that . Just for SEGA to build on some of the engines its already made and share the tech between the Teams - get a good pool of tech and the piple lines up to speed . It's sad that tech like Canvas and Hedgehog wasn't built on and improved for 2nd and 3d generations of game- Like Ubi did with Anval or Capcom did with the Framework .
I would agree.
Yes by $25 Million dollars
Then how come Sega from 2008-2012 brought out so many games; as much as they had in the console years? R&D Money is not just for in-house and Sega Japan.
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So how else is one meant to interpret that SONY 'owns' the next generation and how did we put it... They're F-in 'unstoppable' . That's not grounded talk to me
I was unaware that the eighth generation was only going to last for a month.
Furthermore, I realise the two of us share the same forename minus a W in the place of V, but CrazyTails and I are two totally different people.
You would do well to grasp who you are debating with and address their points instead of some imaginary argument the two of us are having.
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I was unaware that the eighth generation was only going to last for a month.
And I was unaware that the next generation was meant to last for just a month , makes you wonder why they bother ::).
Most of the times, Sega had 3 console teams, and 3 Arcade teams, AM4's Spikeout could be put into AM2, and AM5 Sega Rally games, and Touring Championship were pretty much part AM3
In those times teams like AM#1 had 4 speprate lines, AM#3 had 3 seprate lines all with each line working on 1 to 2 totally seprate games for other lines inthe same team . SEGA was just simply more productive in those days .
And they have a second pipeline that does constant updates on the Sengoku Taisen Arcade game (and some other things)
C'Mon compared to the old AM#1 which used to push out a huge number of games for the Arcades they're just a shadow of the old AM#1 .
Yakuza is expected to sell 500k and the games you mentioned 1mil. Yakuza had 1 year dev cycle, and the others 2 years and are aimed worldwide. Sure that has some influence on the overall quality.
Demon Souls wasn't made with a million sales in mind it was a new IP and a Huge risk a lot of Fromsofware games aren't made with huge sales in mind - They just seem like a well run team in trems of their R&D tech and next gen piple lines .
But you're spot on with Yakuza - Yearly development is a sure way to kill the Team, kill inovation and kill any hope are a real serious development in tech and I think its showing
Then how come Sega from 2008-2012 brought out so many games; as much as they had in the console years?
SEGA Japan development very little In-House and very little in terms of new IP for the next gen consoles . The big trouble for SEGA Japan is its got very little to offer the next gen consoels in terms of IP that gamers the world over want to play and going forward that's going to be a huge issue . We will soon had children that have no knowlege or will have any experince of a SEGA console and sure in Japan with Yakuza and SEGA in the Arcades that's not so much an issue but in the West ?
The way its going SEGA won't have many IP to update or remake in 20 years that people will want to play again . SEGA Japan really needs to start making new IP and IP that can work the world over and where lots of gamers play them
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And I was unaware that the next generation was meant to last for just a month , makes you wonder why they bother ::).
You are implying I said Sony is going to dominate the eighth generation, I did not.
Again, stop mixing people up and projecting them all as various individual personalities of me.
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You are implying I said Sony is going to dominate the eighth generation, I did not.
Really and how does this read to you then ?
Sony really owns the next generation. Wow at every single move they've done so far. They're un-fucking-stoppable
Again, stop mixing people up and projecting them all as various individual personalities of me
I'm not at all .
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You are implying I said Sony is going to dominate the eighth generation, I did not.
Again, stop mixing people up and projecting them all as various individual personalities of me.
Ahh,i'm glad i'm not the only one to notice that.
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Really and how does this read to you then ?
I'm not at all .
Oh deary me, thank you for proving my point that you hardly seem to read the username and just jumble everyone together to counter one particular user's points. That quote should be associated with CrazyTails.
Sony really owns the next generation. Wow at every single move they've done so far. They're un-fucking-stoppable
So now that I have proved you undeniably wrong can you please stop trying to merge me and CrazyTails as one person (We do not even have similar writing styles) and stick to debating in a proper manner.
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Oh deary me, thank you for proving my point that you hardly seem to read the username and just jumble
No it just far easier to copy and paste, than separating parts of the post you want to respond if you use the quote button, well to me anyway .
That quote should be associated with CrazyTail
Yes I'm sorry .
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No it just far easier to copy and paste, than separating parts of the post you want to respond if you use the quote button, well to me anyway .
Yes I'm sorry .
Yes, that's right. TA got owned and pwned by Arsene Wenger, i mean Aki.