Did the industry die along with Sega? Discuss!

[jonboy101]

Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).

And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.

You forgot Chu Chu Rocket. Four new IPs.

[Aki-at]

Well Sonic is SEGA's mascot, so it makes more sense. And even then, in the span of 8 years since 1991, Sonic Team got to create 3 new IP's (Nights, Ristar, Burning Rangers), while the Yakuza Team only 1 (it has ben 8 years since Yakuza 1).

Yakuza is as much as SEGA's mascot series in Japan as Sonic is in the West though.

You're overlooking Samba de Amigo, but it's not fair to compare the two in that time period. Back then 20 - 30 people could create a new game, to make a major new title these days you have to employ over 200 people. Working on a new IP has both potential financial risk and opportunity costs.

It's a tough one to balance but it makes sense, especially as the Japanese branch is the only one willing to support the products.

And actually Phantasy Star had a 2 year cycle too.

Since 2000, Phantasy Star has had one new major entry with the exception of 2011.

[Trippled]

Since 2000, Phantasy Star has had one new major entry with the exception of 2011.

I see it more as versions, personally

Also Samba and Chu Chu Rocket were in 2000.

[Aki-at]

I see it more as versions, personally

Also Samba and Chu Chu Rocket were in 2000.

I wouldn't call them versions, they're mostly full blown titles and none have been priced under 5000 yen.

Ah right, I overlooked you said a 8 years span.

[Team Andromeda]

Back then 20 - 30 people could create a new game, to make a major new title these days you have to employ over 200 people. Working on a new IP has both potential financial risk and opportunity costs.

You like an endless excuse train for SEGA. Sure for the bigger IP you need Big teams, but Samba was made at a time when SEGA had 200 staff on Shenmue and over 100 on Sonic Adv is still can be done even today .

When Okawa died in 01', 2002 was still a great year for Sega.

After the late great Okawa-san died its started the slow demise of SEGA . Sure SEGA did really well , but the destruction of the Teams and the Sammy take over had really killed SEGA. Gone are the days of SEGA leading the way with GFX or taking risks or new spins on established IP and I seriously doubt under Okawa-san would have ever treated a great  like Suzuki-san the way he was.

Sure there's a lot of talent in side the group, but its wasted under Sammy -with its focus on quick and easy fixes .

I would have liked to see new IPs, but using Platinum as an example just goes to show the problem. They have only one and seven commercial successes and even that one title was based on an established franchise.

I agree it's pointless , but for different reasons . To me we should be comparing SEGA to the likes of Capcom and on that front SEGA behide in Tech, On-Line and in new IP . Sure milk the good selling IP, but also make new major IP and on that score SEGA is way behind the likes of Capcom
 

[Aki-at]

You like an endless excuse train for SEGA. Sure for the bigger IP you need Big teams, but Samba was made at a time when SEGA had 200 staff on Shenmue and over 100 on Sonic Adv is still can be done even today .

Give it a rest, you're the one who goes around screwing up topics, going on random tangents and seem to live in an alternate reality to most of us.

I agree it's pointless , but for different reasons . To me we should be comparing SEGA to the likes of Capcom and on that front SEGA behide in Tech, On-Line and in new IP . Sure milk the good selling IP, but also make new major IP and on that score SEGA is way behind the likes of Capcom

Even your darling Capcom is struggling and you have always had it in for SEGA so come seat down and talk to us when you are ready to remove some of your bias.

[Team Andromeda]

Give it a rest, you're the one who goes around screwing up topics

Calling out SEGA and saying that should and could do better ? is now a crime ? . Sorry SEGA need a good kicking of late to wake them up. People need to get a grip if that's somehow offensive

Even your darling Capcom is struggling and you have always had it in for SEGA

What ? I lived and breathed SEGA for years , but now they're a shadow of the old SEGA one used to love - SEGA died with the XBox  . Capcom are doing ok and here's the difference have IP that sells well World wide and in the millions, have made brand new IP this gen like with Lost Planet, Dead Rising Dragon's Dogma and already have a New IP and impressive Next Gen engine to go

All that with just 1000 staff, less than half of that of SEGA Japan . Shows you it can be done, if your pipe lines and Teams are up to next gen levels.  SEGA could learn a lot and do a lot if it tried

[Aki-at]

Calling out SEGA and saying that should and could do better ? is now a crime ? . Sorry SEGA need a good kicking of late to wake them up. People need to get a grip if that's somehow offensive

No, you have consistently ruined topics by going on strange and non-related tangents that make no sense. You do not just have to ask me, ask any member, any, on this board and they will say you have a reputation for destroying any form of rational debate.

What ? I lived and breathed SEGA for years , but now they're a shadow of the old SEGA one used to love - SEGA died with the XBox  . Capcom are doing ok and here's the difference have IP that sells well World wide and in the millions, have made brand new IP this gen like with Lost Planet, Dead Rising Dragon's Dogma and already have a New IP and impressive Next Gen engine to go

All that with just 1000 staff, less than half of that of SEGA Japan . Shows you it can be done, if your pipe lines and Teams are up to next gen levels.  SEGA could learn a lot and do a lot if it tried

It doesn't matter if you liked SEGA at any time, the fact you are guided by a negative outlook because of what you want shows you are not in any right mind to discuss anything ojectively.

[Trippled]

After the late great Okawa-san died its started the slow demise of SEGA . Sure SEGA did really well , but the destruction of the Teams and the Sammy take over had really killed SEGA. Gone are the days of SEGA leading the way with GFX or taking risks or new spins on established IP and I seriously doubt under Okawa-san would have ever treated a great  like Suzuki-san the way he was.

Sure there's a lot of talent in side the group, but its wasted under Sammy -with its focus on quick and easy fixes.

Most of the time when Sega were leading in tech it was through the arcade machines being a ahead a generation. Through Arcades dying, they coudn't do that anymore, due to the market shrinking extremly, and making their games accordingly. And they still woudn't have intergrated their teams for big-budget console games, cause they still made more money on Arcades. Sammy can't be blamed for this, that was all Sega's decision.

Now when it comes to the console market, I still think Sega made great looking games with Sonic, Valkyria looked great as well - and at least Yakuza's cutscenes look brilliant.
Maybe I'm just not the one to judge on graphics (personally really can't tell anymore what looks next-gen and what not) - I don't think graphics are really the problem with Sega thus far anyway.

Also I just don't think you can blame Sammy for internal development problems, such as Yu Suzuki's situation. It happened before, with Hisao Oguchi most likely talking to Suzuki extensively, and in the end him deciding to lead a smaller team. Anyway I just don't think think Sega was a victim to anything, they were their own enemy.

Also Sega's publishing efforts should be commended.

[Team Andromeda]

Most of the time when Sega were leading in tech it was through the arcade machines being a ahead a generation. Through Arcades dying, they coudn't do that anymore, due to the market shrinking extremly, and making their games accordingly

At the time of the XBox SEGA was using MS hardware in the Arcades and yet its Teams were able to produced some fablous graphics on all the major systems be that F-Zero on the Cube, JSRF/Orta on the Xbox or Yakuza 2 and VF 4 Evo on the PS2, hell even Monkey Ball 2 looked really good

In anything SEGA should have had a real advantage over most thanks to it using PC based Hardware in the Arcades and yet Capcom and the likes of Fromsoftware seems to have gotten to grips more with this current tech .

And they still woudn't have intergrated their teams for big-budget console games, cause they still made more money on Arcades. Sammy can't be blamed for this, that was all Sega's decision

Merging Team like Sonic team with UGA was SEGA doing, but since then and under Sammy all the teams were merged in to one group with one central budget - That is Sammy fault, also under Sammy SEGA R&D has been slashed and to me that's shown in the Tech and the lack of flare from SEGA Japan these days .

guided by a negative outlook

That's only because there's little to cheer for or look forward to from SEGA these day's

You do not just have to ask me, ask any member, any, on this board and they will say you have a reputation for destroying any form of rational debate

And is this from the SEGA fan club ?: That ones that  can't take people finding fault with  SEGA;
You can be the biggest support of a Club/Team and love all their stand for and who they are and yet have a go at the manager or chairman for things not being right at the Club, that doesn't make you anything less of a fan. 
You and the SEGA Club can live in this little bubble and try and make out things are ok at SEGA. The truth is hardly anybody talkss up SEGA these days, gone are the days of IGN and the Press is camping outside the SEGA HQ for the interviews and the latest builds of the next big game. Just have a quick sample at the boards on the net to see what people think of SEGA. Sure you can make out they're not fans , they don't count and all that .

The trouble is with SEGA taking little risks , retreating to Japan and handhelds Its doing its self little better to get its name back. Isn't that what we want . Just look at the this board , Its spend more time celebrating SEGA past , than alking or looking forward to what's coming next from SEGA Japan

Sonic, Valkyria looked great as well - and at least Yakuza's cutscenes look brilliant.

Sonic tech was really nice, Valkyria was world beating imo - SEGA just never backed it or really built on it and instead took the safe route and made the sequel for the PSP . Yakuza blew me away on the PS2 , but I've been really unimpressed with it on the PS3 and the yearly sequels are just too much for any team imo . Binary Domain was amazing - a true old type of SEGA game but again SEGA never pushed it and will never build on it and give the IP another try .

SEGA needs more IP like BD early in for the next generation, but already its taking the safe route of more Yakuza even for the PS3 - This after Nagoshi-san said the series was finished on the PS3 .  Really a New BD, New IP and PSO 2 for the next gen consoles would be better and get us looking forward to SEGA next gen attack , but instead we get more Yakuza , just a year after the last one - Giving the Team next to no chance of pushing the tech on the PS4 , much less really try much new in gameplay terms

[Aki-at]

That's only because there's little to cheer for or look forward to from SEGA these day's

Again, there is stuff, however you will not look forward to it because what you want is not there.

And is this from the SEGA fan club ?: That ones that  can't take people finding fault with  SEGA;

No, this is from the rational minded individual, I won't name the active members because I don't want them to be brought into this discussion, but you chased away Orta because you could not stand anyone disagreeing with your perceived notion on how fantastic the Hedgehog Engine is.

If you honestly think we are all here to circle jerk off SEGA then you are as always, delusional. People want grounded debate based on facts, not your merry little pack of misinformation you always pull out, character assassinations and flat out lies. Your insane analogies need to stop, but this is classic you, serve to move the subject away from the core matter.

Learn to debate properly.

[Trippled]

At the time of the XBox SEGA was using MS hardware in the Arcades and yet its Teams were able to produced some fablous graphics on all the major systems be that F-Zero on the Cube, JSRF/Orta on the Xbox or Yakuza 2 and VF 4 Evo on the PS2, hell even Monkey Ball 2 looked really good

In anything SEGA should have had a real advantage over most thanks to it using PC based Hardware in the Arcades and yet Capcom and the likes of Fromsoftware seems to have gotten to grips more with this current tech .

Merging Team like Sonic team with UGA was SEGA doing, but since then and under Sammy all the teams were merged in to one group with one central budget - That is Sammy fault, also under Sammy SEGA R&D has been slashed and to me that's shown in the Tech and the lack of flare from SEGA Japan these days .

Sega had worked under a united corporate R&D group for most of it's life, they were going back to how it was basicilly.

And did Sammy cut R&D money? The matter is Sega spend alot of money but not on in-house teams. Sega's Japan logic is that internally, they should just cater to the domestic market, and we give SoA and SoE money to make money internationally.
And with the tech...of course Yakuza won't look like the best game around, it's catering to a much smaller market.
I just don't think Sammy has to do with all of this, they have over 50 companies under their umbrella, I doubt they have that much influence on spending on money either internally or on 2nd party studios or whatever.

Also not everyone agrees with your notion, that in order for Sega to come back they need to spend lots of money and go big on ambitious new engines. Many loved Sega for the small and quirky games, that could hypothetically be on download services.

[Team Andromeda]

Sega had worked under a united corporate R&D group for most of it's life, they were going back to how it was basicilly.

When the Teams were split into 9 subs they each had their own funding and budgets to handle and that sparked a real golden age of creativity .  These days we hardly know the teams , what they're up too or what the hell have happened to the likes of AM#1.
Even in the old SEGA enterprises days the teams still have their own identity and each with 3 or 4 lines . These days , even the major teams seem to only have 2 lines and their output is way short of what we came to expect from SEGA

And with the tech...of course Yakuza won't look like the best game around, it's catering to a much smaller market

That shouldn't come into it really. Each Yakuza gets a lavish budget and a huge team , yet the tech is often outclassed by  the likes of FromSoftware can come up with ( with just 400 staff) , never mind the tech behind Lost Planet and so on .

hat in order for Sega to come back they need to spend lots of money and go big on ambitious new engines.

Not asking for that . Just for SEGA to build on some of the engines its already made and share the tech between the Teams - get a good pool of tech and the piple lines up to speed  . It's sad that tech like Canvas and Hedgehog wasn't built on and improved for 2nd and 3d generations of game- Like Ubi did with Anval or Capcom did with the Framework .

And did Sammy cut R&D money

Yes by $25 Million dollars

People want grounded debate based on facts, not your merry little pack of misinformation you always pull out

Is this coming from the one that makes out the PS4 already won ?. You want a grounded debate fine , I can do that, but it works both ways ...








 

[Aki-at]

Is this coming from the one that makes out the PS4 already won ?. You want a grounded debate fine , I can do that, but it works both ways ...

You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Learn to counter points instead of making up make believe arguments in your head.

[Team Andromeda]

You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Learn to counter points instead of making up make believe arguments in your head.

So how else is one meant to interpret that SONY 'owns' the next generation and how did we put it... They're F-in 'unstoppable' . That's not grounded talk to me