SEGA hit by 73 people layoff, more focus on digital games

[George]

Someone linked to this via our twitter account just now. Shows the hardcore side of SEGA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2En2RVf6s

[Sega Stylista]

Is this the stuff from the school Play Ground ?. When my mum  got me A Master System for Christmas she was already well past her  20's.I  wouldn't say that gave her any more insight to Sega. I could be just as childish and point out that my Saturn was already 6 months old by the time the it launched in America .

Ueda san man, no, just no.  :roll:

The fact is you were a child back then and have limited insight or connection to what happened at the time and are too childish and obstinate to admit that now.

The moment anyone feels the need to say that , is when they start to lose credibility, much like using Wikpedia to back up they case, did they teach you that in Uni ?.

How about I show you how much I got in my online trade account and you show me how much you have in yours and then you can comment on my credibility? You can comeback with calling me childish and petty (and I will admit it is petty of me), but still that would be reality.  Back in the tech boom of the late 90's I had a quarter million dollar tech portfolio. I just don't feel like getting 'informed' by you guys about what happened back then. Is that fair?

Wiki didn't exist in the early 90's when I went to college, not even the internet did.  Nor do I need to use Wiki, why don't you just look at the numbers I posted for you.  Sega shrank and weakened as the industry grew by $10's of billions of dollars and expanded to new audiences since the brief time it led it. There is only one obvious and rational conclusion to that. . . It's obvious they didn't teach you business in your school.

SEGA Mega Drive had some of the most mainstream games one could have . Countless fully licensed and endorsed sport games  , Disney Games and Sonic games , That's just from SEGA.

That was a different market in a different time nor is that relevant to it not connecting to future expanded mainstream western gaming audiences. I'm talking Saturn and DC. Mainstream western markets weren't interested in Nights, Panzer, Shenmue, Jet, Seaman, etc.  Sega was stuck in old market mode.  I can go find a Bernie quote saying just that. (Insert cynical "oh, you have to quote Bernie" response.)

If you ever want to argue with me the comeback that Sega would have sold out eventually and "gone mainstream" I will never argue with you about that because that is the nature of business and reality. I'm not a Sega loyalist and don't make Sega to be the 'pure saint' of gaming.  Just the fucked up interesting one. . .

Try up untill 1995 SEGA had the biggest share of the western video gaming market, that's even with the PS being launched in the west . And just to correct you, the FX chip wasn't great of a seller, not that SEGA didn't have is own SEGA Virtual Processor chip .

Nintendo beat Sega in America before SoJ killed Genesis.  I'm not talking U.S. and Europe but America which was the battle ground in question when the 32bit wars started in the west where Sony trounced Sega from day one.

SF IV plays almost exatcly like it did in the 90's most of the moves and combo's are exactly the same . Its just used the Tatio Type X boards to produce stunning visuals , no different from SEGA using its Board to produce VF 5 stunning visuals .

If it plays exactly like it did in the 90's then that's not saying much about it being at the cutting edge of game play.  It's a massive step down in hardcore than SFIII, it was casualized, period.

Virtual COP has guns, even used reservoir dogs to influence its look. Did that turn it to a horrible western game ?. Gun Valkyrie has guns is a 3rd person shooter , guess you must hate it, Valkyrie of the Battlefield had guns , guess one must hate that too.

Irrational and absurd comparisons based in your refusal to draw or acknowledge the obvious rational conclusion.

I could make a massive listt of SEGA games that had guns (Goes off to play Deep Fear)

And that would be totally irrelevant to the point of discussion.

NEC is one of the most respected companies around .

Your flat out in denial if you want to equate the NEC brand to Sony in the eyes of consumers.  Johnny Mainstream living in Midwest America don't even know NEC but he sure wants a Sony TV. . .

How BIG is MS brand (C'Mon you the Expert) yet its Zune was totally out sold by the I-pod its 360 outsold by the Wii, Its X-Box out sold by the PS2.
 C'mon you're old enough to remember how an unknown JVC was able to outsell  and smash SONY BetaMax with its VHS system (please don't tell me back inthe 80's JVC were more respected).

None of that is relevant to the discussion, those are each unique scenario's with their own variables the fact that you are trying to make this into some black and white rule about who will win does show your lack of insight, no offense.  I am not an 'expert' but because I do have more qualifications and experience in business than any of you here I just don't want to be 'schooled' by you guys when I know at times you guys are way off skew.  I can break each one of those scenario's down for you if you want before you challenge me on that, I just don't want to invest the time to do it. (Blah, blah. . . I'm copping out  :roll: )

It wasn't a fad. Not only did Atari sell millions of consoles, NCL carried on from when Atari left off , and the industry carried on growing . That's not a fad .

NOA had to build from ruin in America they had to call the system an "entertainment system" and include R.O.B. to fool retailers into thinking it was not a video game system which they wouldn't touch with a 100 foot pole. I am right, buddy.

Its just a shame that SEGA didn't build on that, and instead left the door open for SONY

Sega didn't have the brand strength with the mainstream audiences that Sony enjoyed, the ones that weren't the traditonal gamer geeks and would become the new game audiences. Sega had a rep with the audiences of the old niche market (which it tarnished) but would lose it when the market expanded. . . You know the Moore/Naka F U story about the focus group research where Sega was the weird uncle no longer cool. . .

[Team Andromeda]

the fact is you were a child back then and have limited insight or connection to what happened at the time and are too childish and obstinate to admit that now.

Maybe for the Master System and Mega Drive , I was a working teenager  in the Saturn years . Quite grown up to know what spending £640 on a console and one game entailed.

Back in the tech boom of the late 90's I had a quarter million dollar tech portfolio

Next you're be telling us you're Bill Gates . Don't come it .

Wiki didn't exist in the early 90's when I went to college, not even the internet did

I'm sorry very sorry the Internet was around inthe early 90's
 Hell I remember entering loads of number trying to get Bad Influence (early 90's UK game show)  web page up in the early 90's  . or maybe I was just lucky,  that my school had the Internet in the early 90's

I'm talking Saturn and DC. Mainstream western markets weren't interested in Nights, Panzer, Shenmue, Jet, Seaman, etc.

I got news for you, Japan for the most part, wasn't either . And Mr Marketing Degree man, Shenmue  actually sold better in the west  (both Shenmue and its Sequel) than in Japan, so did JSR.  Again you're all over the shop.

Nintendo beat Sega in America before SoJ killed Genesis.

For most of the Genesis life it out sold the SNES.

when the 32bit wars started in the west where Sony trounced Sega from day one.

Actually the Mega Drive out sold the PS in 1995 in the west, even Mega Drive games like Brian Lara and Football Manger could top the charts  .I love the way you overlook Japan too, is that because the Saturn was outselling the PS by a massive amount,even with SONY money  ? . Like I say you make a product people want, and they'll buy it . Shame SOJ did get Square onthe Saturn .

If it plays exactly like it did in the 90's then that's not saying much about it being at the cutting edge of game play. It's a massive step down in hardcore than SFIII, it was casualized, period

Yes like the 90's , where you made out that SF II was hardcore  :roll: . I'll never said SF IV is  the cutting Edge of play. I don't even like the game much

Irrational and absurd comparisons

 

or more like they all have Guns , some even play as a 3rd Person shooter . You must hate them all . Sad, I think SEGA missed the boat with GV, A much needed and improved  sequel could have beaten Capcom to it .

And that would be totally irrelevant to the point of discussion

Nope, there loads of SEGA games that used guns , and I'm sure you're old enough to remember the Light phaser, the Stunner, the menacer. Oh yes SEGA love its Guns be in the Arcades or the Home . I'm sure Gun Valkyrie was even going to use the DC light gun for its control . That would have been cool a 3rd person shooter controlled by a Gun its self

If you don't like Modern games for Guns, then you must have hated the Master System, The Mega Drive, the Saturn and DC . Shame that

Your flat out in denial if you want to equate the NEC brand to Sony in the eyes of consumers

Oh No I'm not NEC were and are massive , with millions more cash inthe bank than SEGA. And you are old enough to remember SEGA having a complete kicking with the Master System in the USA (what was it less than 2% market share) Yet SEGA was able to beat NCL in the USA in the 16 bits day's , with less money and less brand creed with the USA consumers.

None of that is relevant to the discussion

No they're all relevant . All showing where the bigger more established company is sometimes out done by a smaller corp . The VHS VS BetaMax is one of the most famous in History ,and next to no-one knew of JVC before hand.

 
End Of Line

[George]

East, when you are wrong you just say its not relevant. You have lost. For a guy that claims to be 100 years old when the Saturn came out, you sure don't know much.

[Sega Stylista]

TA, it's difficult for me to respond to you because you trap my statements in a lot of generalizations and distortions I'm not making.

Oh No I'm not NEC were and are massive , with millions more cash inthe bank than SEGA.

TA you're being silly. NEC's investment in gaming was chump change compared to what Sony poured into it, stop equating the two.  I don't even know what this comparison is about anymore.

[MadeManG74]

I've never really been following this conversation seriously but what the hell are you guys even arguing about anyway?

That SEGA is doing worse than before, or that games aren't fun anymore?

[Sega Stylista]

I've never really been following this conversation seriously but what the hell are you guys even arguing about anyway?

I honestly started asking myself that a few pages ago.

Like I say you make a product people want, and they'll buy it

TA must have a marketing degree. . . that is the essence of marketing.  Drawing by your own statement, if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.

Here you go, guys:

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/0 ... interview/

So why did North America fail Sega? Tsurumi has a simple answer -- it's because players went with titles from other makers. Games like Assassin's Creed II and Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 had strong sales in North America. They ate into Sega's own titles, said Tsurumi.

Tsurumi feels that games of the above form with Hollywood-style production values can sell well in the North American market. He brought up Final Fantasy XIII as evidence of this. The market for "movie-like games" in Europe and North America is expanding, he said.[/size]

There you go!       :mrgreen:

Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!

[Sega Uranus]

Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!

Yeah, the SEGA CD never existed, I agree.

[MadeManG74]

TA must have a marketing degree. . . that is the essence of marketing. Drawing by your own statement, if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.

Isn't SEGA one of the most successful Publishers in the industry today though? If not, certainly one of the largest.

They aren't Activision or Nintendo, granted, but they are certainly top ten material.

[George]

SEGA came in 6th place in the west. I do not know how they are niche at all.

East said that Sony killed SEGA Saturn and Dreamcast, due to having more money and 'mainstream appeal'. That SEGA was too hardcore. But TA brought up that FPS, license games and sports games where part of SEGA since the 16-bit days.

Also, other companies with more money have tried to get into gaming and failed. Microsoft's xbox last gen, NEC with their consoles. Money does not equal success in the industry.

SEGA fucking delayed Bayonetta due to MW2, ALL PUBLISHERS did this though, so SEGA had to release a new IP with a ton of sequels from other publishers. Seriously, DMC did about the same number when it came out as Bayonetta. I would not consider the game a 'niche' game at all, it did over a million.

[Team Andromeda]

Western mainstream titles with cinematic hollywood production values are the reason Sega doesn't sell (is there an echo in here?!) according to Sega's own executives!

Yeah, the SEGA CD never existed, I agree.

LOL, You couldn't make it up, could you .
That's why SEGA also put in  over 10 million pounds in its thenNew Multi Media Studio in the 90's ,for SOA to work on FMV games and big licensed games like Jurassic Park SEGA CD. Oh no a Big name Film Licensed game isn't mainstream at all , and the likes of TomCatAlley, Surgical Strike, Midnight Raiders ECT  never had Hollywood Production vales, and most certainly wasn't cinematic, even though they were completely FMV  :roll: .

if Sega is nothing today with the industry growing by $70 billion dollars in revenue since it led in the the past, then the obvious rational conclusion is that the majority of audiences don't wan their product.

Mr Marketing man , VF is a complete success in the Arcades, Yakuza a million selling brand in Japan , Sonic a million selling brand in West, Sonic Vs Mario a multi-Million selling brand,  Football Manager a massive brand in Europe , and even the likes of Bayonetta a million selling brand new IP . Not bad , when no-one wants your product .

NEC's investment in gaming was chump change compared to what Sony poured into it, stop equating the two. I don't even know what this comparison is about anymore.

Don't come it , Its shows how a smaller corp can beat a bigger corp. What about Phillips to ?? Inventor of the CD, a world renowned and respect brand in all the Major markets (especially inthe west) , and again a company far bigger and with far more money than SEGA.
Yet SEGA once again not only beat Philips for Market share, they beat them for better technology too. And don't kid your self Phillips didn't put millions and millions into the CDI project  

Now its clear, you've lost the Argument, on so many levels not least SEGA being Mainstream and Hollywood with its  Mega Drive  Mega CD productions,or how the Sega Saturn was a  true Multi Media console.

You know the thing about Uni, Its nothing compared to Life experience and living in the real world . Sadly most will know SEGA did so much to kill its self inthe 90's , not SONY. Dreamcast that was different , but the brand and image damage was already done then sadly

[George]

You do not understand. A company, can do other stuff and be huge in it, does not mean you will get respect in all fields. It is quite obvious that Nintendo and SEGA did not care much for Sony. SEGA refused to do a console with them, thought they where no threat and did not want them 'mooching' off the SEGA brand name.

Sony brand name in video games was shit. They did some small hits. I think the only game I liked from them was Smartball. Regardless, if SEGA thought of Sony as a threat, they would have taken the 'splitting profit/debt' for their 32 bit console in half.

Sony even let SEGA keep 100% of profits for their games, Sony kept theirs (good thing considering Sony's video game development studios sucked ass).

You act like Sony in the early 90's  is the same Sony as today.

[ROJM_old]

Again the Saturn was never marketed as a multimedia device by SOJ, neither was the gamecube either. The MS and Sony systems were.

I do sometimes wonder if you ever owned a Saturn, or ever took much Interest in it . Saturn not meant or never marked as a Multi Media device ?. That would explain the Saturn  mighty and impressive CD front end: Those 2 Left and Right  polygons blobs that reacted in tune to any music being played, the fact that the face buttons on the Saturn, had symbols for play pause, Forward ECT, Hell you could even alter the pitch of the music track, or tack the vocals out of the music , All in the Saturn's front end for ones music CD's.

Unlike SONY PS every SEGA Saturn was able to play Video CD's and display Photo CD's through a Add on . The only way to play Video CD's on the PS, was to buy the limited edition Asian model. One could also buy a Disc Drive, Keyboard, even Surf the web through the Saturn various adds ons  

SEGA Saturn was Multi Media alright.

Yawn. The twister keeps on twisting. SOJ never marketed the saturn as a multimedia machine at all. SOA tried to market the saturn as a multimedia system and as a rival or succesor to the 3DO before launch before playing its MM features down after the Sony onslaught. I know this because I was there unlike you who obviously picked up the Saturn way after the event. And when someone says the words, "they didn't market the system as a multimedia device" does not mean it didn't have multimedia features. Understand that? Because the fact you think it does by pointing out those features thinks that it somehow proves a point when the point whether or not it had them was never in dispute. I may add that 80 percent of saturn owners didn't buy or knew about the MM add ons existed actually proves my point that the system wasn't marketed as a MM device but more of a games machine which had those features. just like the MD before it. Sony PS2 was marketed as  an MM device and the 360 was marketed the same. Internal features readily made available too i may add. Not stuff that would turn your system into doing MM things. :roll:

And I do remember SEGA Europe no lease , advertising the Video CD player in SEGA Saturn Magazine, No less

Yeah that's sega japan.  :roll: Next time try reading and understanding english. SOJ stands for Sega of japan. Is there an A in SOJ? Or an E in SOJ? If your the example of todays gaming generation its no wonder gaming went to pot during the early noughties.

No that's why my Japan Launch Dreamcast came with a lovely Browser CD , Why SEGA Europe spent millions on DreamAera , Yeo  Internet was there only to enhance games  :roll: . The fact remains the Only current console (be it hand held or Home console)  one can't Surf the Web on is the 360, You Surf the web on the Wii.

You didn't get a DC at launch day. So stop lying please. And online functions again does not make the system multimedia. You might as well call the megadrive a multimedia device too with the internet functions made available to it. Dreamarena was ultimatly there to enhance your gaming experience. The VMU was there to enhance the gaming experience. That was its primarly function. That was the point in including them there in the first place. Like i said I know its hard to imagine a games system before you started to play games after FF7 that its sole purpose was to just play games or its main focus was to play games. But you see there are people here who remember that a games machine use to be just that and not a glorified all in one system. Yes the DC had online but it was there to serve the gameplay. The DC focus was to play games. That was the point. Anyone saying that it wasn't obviously never brought a DC until AFTER the event and have been obviously influenced by the multimedia systems that they happen to own.

And yes the PS2 and PS3 half piped dvd /blueray functions respectivly really made DMC a memorable experience

The BluRay Playback on the PS3 is perfect . I really don't get the silly DMC Comment, its a game, not a Film. But yes the 1st game was quite a memorable experience.

No because what you do is take peoples comments out of context to make yourself look good. The PS3 is a multimedia device. Marketed as one. Never as a games machine. Once you face up to that fact we can all live in peace.

NEC games division making more money than Sega? A company who not only dominated the arcades industry at the time,but had its foot in the door in three markets,europe being the one where it dominated and coming a very distant second in the rest of the world where NEC didn't have the honour of being a distant third let alone anything else?

You've got the cheek to make out people Twist Things after that ?. NEC as a company was always bigger than SEGA,  and had more money inthe Ban . Then and now NEC is a Electronic Giant, just like SONY.

Yes that's why you deliberatly twisting it and making out that I said NEC when i specifically said NEC games division. You really are a joke, kid. As for me twisting things, i don't have the reputation. At least three people besides myself have said that you twist people's comments at least two in here and one person who's a mod at Seganerds and this place or was a mod at SN should i say. So don't bother trying to tarnish people with the same brush. I don't need to twist things because I have experience and knowledge on my side, so i know what the truth is. You on the other hand do not. Its strange is it not that when you try to do the "i know everything" stuff to people who actually was playing games at the period where you claim to be, your arguments are torn apart by them. You can fool some of the people i think the expression goes....

we want to play your silly little game, How small and how much Money did Sony Computer Entertainment have ?. Not much from what I recall, didn't even have their own floor when developing the SNES CD.

NEC games division didn't have more money than Sega. that's a fact. Do you really think that a company with stockholders would be allowed to take its profits from one part of its buisness and pour it into one division that isn't making money and more importantly doesn't make more money that its electronics division? But again I made it clear that i was talking about the games department but you purposely include the entire company as a childish way to win the argument. Bringing in Sony or MS especially the latter who made so many losses in its game division during the Xbox era but didn't manage to effect the main buisness of the corp. Using your child logic then MS wins by default because they are at that time of 2003/2005 were valued and making a lot more money as a whole than sony ever was. But in reality both nintendo and sony GAMES division were posting profits compared to Microsoft's division. And like that NEC games division were profitable in japan but Sega was making more money worldwide.

ega outspent and out marketed them at everyturn during the formative years of the genesis in america. Sega had adverts everywhere during the Genesis does, 16 bit revolution campaigns which went on for a solid three years. NEC only had two or three adverts going and that's not including TV, which you were lucky to catch one.

Wait SEGA was meant to be this small corp with no money, and not able to take on any Electronic Giants. Thanks for proving my point .
 And unless you lived in America at the time, I really don't how one can comment on NEC adverts, or lack of

See. If you were playing games during the eighties then you'd know Sega had money. I know that since you've been playing games sega has had little to no money to play with but what me and Sega style are talking about is BEFORE the PSX era. Specifically before the FF7 era when sega was still a big company. I know its confusing to someone like you who are only use to a certain way of things to think that it has always been the case.Anyway back to the question.
Easy because I have the american magazines and comics from that period and the NEC adverts are lacking. Nintendo was dominant up to the late 91 by 91 onwards Sega adverts started to dominate and became more dominat after 92 onwards. Gaming magazines most of the advertising were for nintendo to sega games with not even a handful for NEC. And TV NEC was hardly a force. Now let's use logic again. Advertising costs money. NEC games division supposedly had more money than sega. Yet sega adverts dominated NEC at the launch of the genesis and throughout its launch year to 95 before sony PSX came up.
Now instead of speculating why can't you answer that? The reason why is basically the reason why you misquote others with nonsense and other falsehoods and with answers that has nothing to do with the question. You don't know. Because you weren't there playing games at that time.

And really "No money"? That's why sega was busting out some advanced arcade tech with some of the games it was releasing from the frigging R60 to the hologram games from the mid to late eighties or that it had enough money to bring its systems to three markets while NEC didn't even bother with the other two. Yeah they really had more money than sega. :lol:

NEC only dominated Japan and that was a breif period

??. PC Engine had a long LifeSpan in Japan and sold over 6 million units. Better life span and double the userbase of the Mega Drive in Japan for sure .

The PC engine was dead by 91. But keep downloading mean machines and get a false impression on what really happened just because they kept going on about it back then.

Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states.

There's a great open interview with SEGA America staff in this Months Retro Gamer (with SOA Vice President of Tech 1993/1997 and Senior Producer of SOA 1990/1994) . Yes that right people who worked in Technical Dept on the 32X . I suggest you read it , its quite fascinating . And shows how wrong you really are.

In Their words

"Frankly, the 32X just made us look greedy and dumb to consumers"

What, the fact that when you release a brand new system with an estabilshed brand name with NO follow ups to games that were popular on the previous system to get that userbase installed to the new machine was down to the 32X? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No it was SOJ. SOJ commisned the idea of the 32x not SOA. SOJ stopped any development on certain big SOA titles. SOJ held off any SONIC games until it was too late. SOJ is to blame for the saturn's demise not the 32x. You might as well say that's the main reason many SNES owners ended up getting the PSX as well because of the 32X. You can read your silly hindsight magazines and think you are getting the story but you are not. Anyone one who knows anything about Sega knows it was down to SOJ and SOJ alone. If anyoneone had a chance to make the saturn a hit kalinske was. But we all know what happned there and we all know how succesful other SOA presidents has been since he left.

People saw VF2,Daytona and wanted them but Sega didn't release them in time to really cash in.

What are you on about ?. VF II was brought out as soon as it was ready, weeks after it 1st shipped in Japan, and Daytona USA was a launch game in the west . How that's for being ready ?

Those games came out in late 94 so it took nearly a year and a half for them to be released on Saturn and by that time it was already too late.And please a buggy VF1 and a daytona port that was never up to scrath didn't do Sega any favours.

ts also funny the moment i mention Sega's history with FPs in another topic and doom in particular all of a sudden TA has an urge to mention it when the 32x part of your discussion it wasn't mentioned once AND it was getting slagged of

. I've always known about DOOM, Hell (pardon the Pun)  I still have the interview with Tom saying it was the game to get for the 32X, and having a joke at the expense of other versions lack of Music .  Those were the days, Huh Tom ?. I'm not the one choosing to look over how SEGA used FPS to sell its own machines....

Sure you did mate sure you did. Funny in all the 32x arguments we ever had you never brought it up.Discovered it in last month's retro mag eh? :lol:

I think it was more Wipeout and Tekken that doomed the Saturn . Tekken made VF look old in the GFX dept, and Wipeout just hit the trend, and well  made Daytona USA look graphically sh8t in comparison

The PSX was in the lead by then :roll: IE the word launch. You see you can't even get that right. Those games were the ones that sold the PSX to the public AT LAUNCH, and i remember they were all over the place back then. You'd remember that if you were playing games back then and not after FF7.  

That's how you know you're essentially talking to someone who only started playing games after Final fantasy 7

I started playing games on my ZX Spectrum 128 ZX+. Then had a Intellivision + Philips G7000 for Christmas , thanks to Old TOMS shop closing down sale .
You never know I may still even have the consoles (sadly not the ZX Spectrum) in my Loft somewhere. I've sadly been gaming since the mid 80's.

Chirst I still have my Jp Launch Saturn and Mega CD receipts from Dream machines II . Don't hit me with the FF7 bullsh8t

When someone comes up with the carp you just did, its obvious that you hit a raw nerve.
Like i said please leave the arguments about old gaming to the people who were actually experiencing it at the time.

[ROJM_old]

Like i said Sega style or SS for short, these gamers who think that are nothing but corporate whores. Which makes me laugh why they saying you are when to my eyes ( i haven't followed every post you made) been waving the flag for traditional gaming in this topic.

Yes, hypocrites can only think along their own terms. . . I am no Sega loyalist or fanboy even though it is convenient for them to frame me that way to continue their phony arguments.

As for your discussion with the abomination. The guy likes to twists things and half the people here are regurtitating the same propaganda he's spilling because they want to impress him because they think he knows everything.

Actually "twist" was the word that came to mind when I read his response to me.  Losing argument so change the playing field lower and more ridiculous, you must know quite well how it goes. . .

The facts is he's not really talking about the reality of the situation at the time. Anyone who was actually playing games at the time knew exactly what the situation was and what happened.

Absolutely, when Saturn launched in NA I was 20 years old. I really don't care for some one a decade a more younger than me to "school me" on their totally misinformed, second hand distortion of reality they lack the objectivity or connection to fact to challenge or critically assess.

Furthermore if anyone thinks that the 32x killed the saturn they don't know what they're talking about. SOJ killed the saturn with their constant meddling in SOA's affairs and ruined its best chance to be succesful in the states. When one company decides to stop and hinder any oppourtunity to create software that western consumers would at least recognised then its no wonder the PSX got the hold that it did.

If Sega released a compliment of its succesful IP from the genesis days with their new arcade titles and the real good saturn software among other things they would at least lasted longer with the saturn in america than they did.

REALITY.

Thanks for the clarity and accuracy in this response of your's, ROJM.

Well, TA and George, my argument has never been it was "all about the money" Sega lost to Sony on a combination of Money/size, brand strength and mainstream appeal--period.

Nice Cop out, but how was SEGA able to beat NCL in the west in the 16 bit days .

TA, friend, I have a marketing degree and have worked in corporate marketing departments in real life, so please don't spin your not following what I was saying into a "cop out" on my part.

You've got the right brand and marketing and money to back it up you achieve success. That is all I'm saying.  Sony did just that in the 32bit days.

How did SoA beat NCL in the west, quite clearly a consequence of the NES audience growing up and becoming teens that connected with the "cooler" and edgier" Sega brands.

And then Sony pulled something similar when those players grew up and they connected with their more sophisticated brand and marketing efforts while Sega was stuck with a lot of quirky and niche titles the market wasn't interested in. And then quite stupidly they did the same thing with DC.

Mainstream audiences never gave a fuck about Sega. Sega had a brief flirtation with industry leadership as the industry grew up from NES, that's all.

No that why SEGA had over 55% of the western Video game market all to its self

How long did Sega ever lead in america, a couple years max?  And they were beat by DKC and Killer Instict and FX chip, lol.

SF IV is nothing more than SF II made for the new generation . And I wouldn't really class Dead Rising , Lost Planet , DMC III as Main Stream games , would you .

SFIV fits with my point as it has now been casualized. DR, LP have guns, its western appealing enough.

Like I say, Money is one thing, making products people want it quite another.

I'm the one with the marketing degree, you're the one not getting me. Sega was not making the products the newer more mainstream game audiences wanted, as you say, or that interested in.  That has been at the whole point of this discussion all along.

You are gonna compare the Sony brand to NEC?

Yes both massive Electronic Giants with many interests and divisions that have nothing to do with gaming

Thanks for saving me the work and invalidating your response with that comment, friend. NEC's brand was and is jack shit in the eyes of western mainstream consumers.  Sony and apple are on the top of the heap in terms of cool and panache.  More than a douchy Sega brand was in 1995.

Pong home was one of the very first consoles, hit mainstream success upon coming out. end of. Wiki as a source? Awesome.

George, if I can clarify for you the matter of early gaming's mainstreamness, it is a question of extent and duration, and not whether there was a mainstream presence or not.

We are arguing about the extent to which gaming has been mainstream.  Atari had a brief period of high mainstream awareness of games but it was a fad. Contrast that to Sony that took gaming to mass audiences and wider demographics and in a greatly sustained fashion.  Nintendo and Sega did nothing to expand the market beyond their primary audience (of kids) in their early years, hence the niche status.

Pong was never a household word maybe you like to think it had achieved and not typically known to mainstream folk outside of geeks.

Gaming had an early flirtation with mainstream audiences that was a passing fad.

That video games were still represented in commercials with 8-bit sound effects in commercials as recent as a few years ago should be telling you something right there.

Certainly in regards to Nintendo but not totally with Sega. Remember sega automatically appealed to an older gamer who was tired of playing the NES and was more likely playing the arcades and that was the audience sega intially captured with the genesis around its launch. But they quickly had to appeal to outside that base and demographic when they intially wasn't going beyond their sales target. EA really was bringing in older gamers(college frat boys) by releasing amiga style games and the sports titles) But beyond that Sega as you said didn't bring in anyone beyond that because they didn't need to. Also to appeal to middle america, sega went backwards by making their image family freindly during the mid nineties led by poster boy Sonic which IMO cost them a lot of their core base and people who originally got the system because of their rebellous image they portrayed after their inital launch.

Gaming was mainstream but it wasn't culturally mainstream. You saw a tv show in the eighties and nineties and a game was playing in the background. But it was just that in the background. They did not emphasise what it was or what it was playing. by the time we get to the mid to late nineties, the games are part of the culture, people emphasising the games system and what game it is and the producer knew by saying a particular word of a brand and character that the audfience would automatically get it.

[Team Andromeda]

SOJ never marketed the saturn as a multimedia machine at all.

SEGA promoted the Sega Saturn as a Multi Media System. You don't think SOJ didn't promote and push the Net Link, the Video CD card ?, Hell it even done a deal with Hitachi to allow them to release thier own Hi-Saturn or Saturn Nav.

Anyone that owns a launch Jp Saturn with have a Manual displaying the planned add ons (disc drive Ect) and the the various CD+G, or Videos the SEGA Saturn was able to play . Pop in a Music CD, or use the Video CD and see how the marked face Saturn buttons work, just like a normal dictated player. You know that why the Saturn had a Cartridge Input as well as Bay for the Video CD cart, for its planned Multi Media add ons :roll: .

Remember sega automatically appealed to an older gamer who was tired of playing the NES and was more likely playing the arcades and that was the audience sega intially captured with the genesis around its launch

Yes SEGA were smart to appeal and recognise the importance of the Older gamer, but to get the kind of Marketshare the Mega Drive did inthe west, you had to appeal to the main stream, and that's something SEGA did brilliantly inthe West  . With clever advertising and big Film or Sport endorsed games, to go along with the likes of Sonic .

SONY were just clever to carry that on, and SEGA completely dumb not too.

Also to appeal to middle america, sega went backwards by making their image family freindly during the mid nineties led by poster boy Sonic which IMO cost them a lot of their core base and people who originally got the system because of their rebellous image they portrayed after their inital launch.

 

Not really so. SEGA didn't ban Blood in its Mortal Kombat, the blood and Spew in its Street Fighter II  like NCL did . SEGA played on the fact that saintly NCL wouldn't t bring out a game like Night Trap on its system, it even created a special Deep water brand at the end,  for games like Eternal Champions  . SEGA played on its 'Other side Image right through the Mega Drive life.  

Gaming was mainstream but it wasn't culturally mainstream.

Its just progress , with the wide spread use of the PC's or the Internet. Back in the 80's people had about 1 or maybe 2 TV's now its a TV in every room, a DVD player in every room ,even a Computer these days  . Living standards have shot up . So we seen far more people buy TV's , Video/DVD computers/consoles. That's not thanks to SONY but more the western lifestyle.

Yeah that's sega japan

Oh dear, how some forget the flyer's that would appear in Japanese Saturn titles. Sometimes they would promote the Saturn Multi Media add ons .

You didn't get a DC at launch day. So stop lying please

What are you on about ?. I still have my Launch Japanese Dreamcast. And in that one got a lovely free Internet Browser CD, not for games, but to surf the web  

You might as well call the megadrive a multimedia device too with the internet functions made available to it

I remember SEGA liked to call it a Computer at one stage .
 

Dreamarena was ultimatly there to enhance your gaming experience. The VMU was there to enhance the gaming experience.

DreamAera was there for the social aspect. Not really to do with gaming
 SEGA were doing deals with Swatch, Virgin Cinema ECT all about pushing the connectivity of the DC, checking e-mails was nothing to do with gaming . Speaking of VMU, I'm sure you remember SEGA Japan showing off its planned VMU MP3 player.

I really don't get what is your problem with the term Multi- Media . My Mobile is a MP3 player , a Camera, Buts its still a bloody fine Mobile phone. Hell you can even player games on SKY Digital, but its still able to receive satellite signals. Its just the way consumer products have been going for years .
The 360 and PS3 are still more games machines, than they are music players and why most people will in the end buy them    

Yes the DC had online but it was there to serve the gameplay. The DC focus was to play games

Every console is made to play games 1st and foremost . That's why companies like MS and SONY put so much money into development of the CPU and GPU's, never mind millions and millions into Games development .
 You know one can take photo's play music on the Nintendo DSi, Does that make it any less of a handheld games machine ?

AFTER the event and have been obviously influenced by the multimedia systems that they happen to own

You never owned a Import Mega Drive or Mega CD, have you ?. You should see what SEGA Japan wrote on the boxes .  Terms like  Multi Purpose Use , High Quality Computer  CD-Rom Player .

I take it you never bough the SEGA Karaoke add Ons for the Mega CD or the Dreamcast ?. Don't tell me , they were all about games  :roll: .

The PS3 is a multimedia device. Marketed as one. Never as a games machine

So was the Saturn. But like with the Saturn, the PS3 main focus is to play games.

NEC when i specifically said NEC games division.

Which is a part of NEC. A corp much bigger that SEGA. You make it sound like SONY Computer Ent was massive at the start . It didn't even have a Headquarters and had to use the Music Division . What next MS Games division isn't part of Microsoft , and can;t count on MS billions to help them out , or fund their projects ?

Do you really think that a company with stockholders would be allowed to take its profits from one part of its buisness and pour it into one division that isn't making money and more importantly doesn't make more money that its electronics division?

Well its seems to be working a treat of MS stockholders . How much did the X-Box lose for Microsoft Entertainment divisions  , over 3 billion wasn't it . Luclky they had uncle Bill to bail them out . When was the last time SONY Computer Entertainment Division made money ?.  Lucky the other sides of the SONY can take the flack .

NEC games division didn't have more money than Sega. that's a fact

Its a fact that NCL had more money than SEGA. Yet than  never stopped SEGA

nd Sega style are talking about is BEFORE the PSX era. Specifically before the FF7 era when sega was still a big company.

SEGA had quite a bit of money in the 32 bit days and was a Big company . Some say that Panzer Dragoon Saga and the 1st Panzer Dragoon were the most expensive console games develop at the time  

Easy because I have the american magazines and comics from that period and the NEC adverts are lacking.

They were crap, but unless you livied in America and watched TV weekly, one could really comment on the lack of TurboGrafx Adverts.

The PC engine was dead by 91

PC Engine enjoyed fine support way past 91 and well into the mid 90's . And btw Mean Machines never covered the NEC PC-Eng  :roll:

And really "No money"? That's why sega was busting out some advanced arcade tech with some of the games it was releasing from the frigging R60 to the hologram games from the mid to late eighties or that it had enough money to bring its systems to three markets while NEC didn't even bother with the other two. Yeah they really had more money than sega

I'm not the one the one making out SEGA was this poor little corp, that couldn't take on the Big Boys . As for your point about Tech, how was the 1st Corp to bring out the world 1st CD  games system for the Home, how created one of the most advanced and expensive  hand Held systems the world had ever seen with the GT and its

How did SNK come up with a console and Arcade hardware that smashed the Mega Dive and Snes to bits for tech  , when they were always a smaller company ?. You want to talk Arcades , I think Konami Speed King beat G-Loc 360 as the most expensive Coin-up , and that NAMCO still holds the record for the largest Arcade ride ever made with  its Galaxian 3  . We can all list Huge coin ups from the glory days of Arcades

What, the fact that when you release a brand new system with an estabilshed brand name with NO follow ups to games that were popular on the previous system to get that userbase installed to the new machine was down

I really can't remember the Mega Drive launching with many sequels to Master systems games, I think the 360 launched with just 1 sequel to an established X-Box game , and the PS3 with one it's self,and well the Cube with 1 too

SOJ held off any SONIC games until it was too late. SOJ is to blame for the Saturn's demise not the 32x.

For the last time , SOA canned Sonic on the Saturn . SOJ actually allowed its production, just wouldn't allow the NiGHTS engine to be used, they is a massive difference.

SOJ commisned the idea of the 32x not SOA.

Well Yes Mars came out of the Jupiter idea ,and SOA wanting to expanded the life span of the Mega Drive

You might as well say that's the main reason many SNES owners ended up getting the PSX as well because of the 32X

I think it was more to do with NCL dropping and humiliating SONY SNES CD Drive  in 1991 ,don't you ?

SONY even kept the name Playstation just to add insult. You can thank NCL for that .

Those games came out in late 94 so it took nearly a year and a half for them to be released on Saturn and by that time it was already too late.

Saturn came out in Nov 1994, VF was ready for launch Saturn Daytona USA came out in April 95 . It does take a few months to covert a Coin Up you know,more so when they're running on one of the most Advanced games of all time  . Saturn VF II came out in Dec 1995 after 7 months of development time and inthe same year of VF II inthe Arcades .

AM#2 were working flat out to make sure the Saturn ports were ready in time. So much so Yu Suzuki said even said he was powering down AM#2 arcade  side, to focus on getting Saturn games done

Funny in all the 32x arguments we ever had you never brought it up

I even scaned it in for you . Remember you trying to make out, they weren't my scans ?

The PSX was in the lead by then :roll: IE the word launc

That's clever since Wipeout was a launch game . Sega Saturn and Daytona USA had already been out of over 3 months before hand, still not enough

When someone comes up with the carp you just did, its obvious that you hit a raw nerve

No,  Its obvious I speak the truth



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