Defining Sega games.

[ROJM]

On the bay 2 topic a debate emerged whether Bayonetta is a bonafide Sega game. So i ask anyone interested
What constitutes a Sega game? at least to you?

To me Sega since their glory days as a console manufacturer and arcade producer has always divided their titles into these categories.

First party game
Sega homegrown development talent for the arcades and console systems.



Second party game
Games made specifically for Sega by other game studios.


Sega Third Party or Sega published.
A game made by another studio or company/publisher that gets Sega to publish the games for them while the game dev still retains the rights.


Sega acquired
Kinda new but companies with their own style being acquired by Sega. Also known as the Sega 1.5 program.
Usually western studios but several companies fall into this.


The question is how does the other three relate to the first party. No doubt the core of Sega is going to be the first party offerings. For example while Sega has put its stamp on TOTAL WAR for example, It is a game that was developed outside the influence of Sega and was purchased because of its market value. But usually the games established itself as its own entity before Sega got them.

But you cannot say the same thing about second party games. While the games are made outside of the Sega development cycle(depending on who the studios were) the game not only are funded by Sega money but Sega influence would be present because they would sometimes dictate on what they want in the game or want from the game. That hasn't changed. Also many Sega second party games were designed on Sega systems as well as well as being owned by them.
To me games like BAYONETTA and TOE JAM AND EARL and GUNSTAR HEROES are just as part of the "Sega universe"  as SONIC, SHENMUE and VIRTUA FIGHTER is. Or be it in their developer's respective side of the Sega Universe.
Many people mistake FIGHTERS MEGAMIX as a Sega cross over title when in reality(once you unlock all the characters) its really an AM2 crossover character or games that AM2 had worked on like SONIC THE FIGHTERS to DAYTONA. Respectivly something like ANARCHY REIGNS can be seen as a Platinum Games crossover title(which it is in a way) but the thing that connects them is that while they made those games all the characters are owned and controled by Sega. Just like FMMX. I think only SASASR is one of the few bonafide Sega crossovers that expands outside of the studios who made the characters that created them by including IP owned by Sega across the board.

But how would you define games made outside of the first party cycle? Are they just or less Sega. Or just a game that Sega happens to publish and not really Sega at all?

[Centrale]

I've weighed in on this topic before and basically come down on the side that anything with a Sega logo on the box (or cover art, since we're running out of boxed games) is a Sega game. But one thing I will add is this: if someone is just focused on what Sega, or any company for that matter, did in the past, then they're just going to have a dwindling number of games to choose from. Take the opportunity to try these new types of games that have become part of the Sega universe and try some new experiences. Keep expanding your tastes and enjoying new experiences. We all began enjoying Sega games with open minds. It's only over the years that we have gained additional perspectives on the workings of Sega as a business, and have developed opinions about what we think they are doing right or wrong. That's fine, but in order to keep enjoying the ongoing evolution of video games themselves, we must keep open minds.

[Barry the Nomad]

This is a subject that I've always loved discussing, tomorrow I'll have to write up a meaty reply.

[Team Andromeda]

ve weighed in on this topic before and basically come down on the side that anything with a Sega logo on the box (or cover art, since we're running out of boxed games) is a Sega game.

You'll come a cropper on that one . SEGA logo on the box and cover art on the likes of Street Fighter the movie , but I'll not class it as a SEGA game .


It used to be easy to define a SEGA Japan  game in the old days . A SEGA Japan  game would take a established genre and turn it on its head with cutting edge graphics, inspired art design bags of creativity and a stonking soundtrack to back it up . These days even SEGA soundtracks don't quite cut the mustard , bar 1 or 2 titles.


Sammy has seen some of SEGA's most creative people go and the ones that are left have seen their creative freedoms killed  and put to work on cheap safe bets and endless sequels .

[ROJM]

...Its all sammy's fault.....

As for the games, well how do you class Street Fighter Champion Edition and Final Fight CD. Most people at the time thought Capcom did a sterling job on those conversions when in reality it was Sega that reprogrammed the game and made them top notch conversions. In the case of FFCD they added a few bonuses. Now of course it isn't a Sega title but Sega did work on those games that ended up with Capcom getting the plaudits which they didn't really deserve.

[MadeManG74]

I actively try to stay away from 'Brand loyalty' when it comes to games, although I used to have it a lot with Sega. Sega is mostly garbage now so it's been easy to break free from that particular bias.

In terms of publishers: Even if Sega is only a publisher of a title, like Bayonetta, I can still credit it as having Sega involvement or being a 'Sega game'. Even if they didn't develop it, Publishers have some input into the games and do impact it's success and quality by way of the freedom they give and assistance to the dev team. This goes for anyone, hence I give EA props for publishing games like Brutal Legend and Shadows of the Damned, even though Double Fine and Grasshopper were the developers and are completely independent.


For something like Bayonetta 2 though, Sega is neither a publisher nor developer, so it's not really a Sega game at all, just a Sega IP made by others.

[Barry the Nomad]

Defining what makes a SEGA game a SEGA game has always been complicated. I'm sorry, but "it has blue skies" or "its arcadey" or "it was developed internally" doesn't cut it. Is "Rise of Nightmares" less of a SEGA game because it doesn't have poppy music or blue skies? Nope! Is Ecco the Dolphin less of a SEGA game than Sonic because it was second party? Not in my book.

Really, like ROJM laid out, it all boils down to categories:

First party games - original IPs
SEGA games developed by internal talent for the arcades and console systems, featuring original IPs.
Examples: Sonic The Hedgehog, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio, Virtua Fighter, OutRun, Rhythm Thief, Viking: Battle for Asgard

First party games - acquired IPs
SEGA games developed by internal talent acquired by SEGA for the arcades and console systems, featuring IPs that originated with the developer before their acquisition by SEGA.
Examples: Total War, Football Manager, Spiral Knights (a rare case of a third party game becoming a first party game)


First party games - licensed IPs
SEGA games developed by internal talent for the arcades and console systems, featuring licensed IPs.
Examples: Dick Tracy, QuackShot, Castle of Illusion, Astro Boy, Alien: Isolation

Second party games - original IPs
Games made specifically for SEGA by other game studios, SEGA retains the rights to the IPs.
Examples: Ecco the Dolphin, ToeJam & Earl, Bayonetta, Vanquish, MadWorld

Second party games - licensed IPs
Games made specifically for SEGA by other game studios, featuring licensed IPs.
Examples: Ghostbusters, The Golden Compass, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Thor: God of Thunder

Third Party aka SEGA published
A game made by another studio or company/publisher that gets SEGA to publish the games for them while the game dev still retains the rights.
Examples: Heroki (still unpublished), Jack Lumber

SEGA as a third party
This is a situation that I don't think gets much attention, basically games or characters that SEGA licenses out for other publishers to use. Examples would be Sonic in Super Smash Bros. and Bayonetta 2.

In the case of Sonic in Super Smash Bros, he is an original SEGA IP being licensed to Nintendo for use as a cameo. Bayonetta 2, meanwhile, is a Second Party original IP licensed to Nintendo. It's a rare instance, as most of SEGA's second party content is not all that popular enough to warrant another publisher wanting to release a new game. Remember that Ecco's creator pitched an Ecco iOS game that SEGA turned down. Seems that the concept didn't catch any other publisher's eyes either, as the game ended up being a non-Ecco title that hit Kickstarter and failed to be funded.


If we see a Shenmue III, I could see it being a third party title that SEGA licenses out.


----


So really, it all depends on your preferences.


My preferences? I can agree that stuff in the Second Party Licensed IPs and Third Party published categories really have very little connection to SEGA outside of licensing/publishing deals. Still, I'll cover them for SEGAbits and treat them as SEGA games, but I personally wouldn't classify them as "true SEGA games". I say "true SEGA games" in that SEGA did not develop the games internally or even assist in the development of a second party IP that they, in turn, own. Also, I put "true SEGA games" in quotes because at the end of the day even those games are SEGA games, despite the lack of internal connection to the talent (that SEGA DNA, if you will).


There are, of course, exceptions. Ghostbusters, for example, is credited as being developed by Compile and SEGA. The game was also built for SEGA hardware. So despite the second party publisher, Compile did have strong ties with SEGA at the time, and the game itself had input from SEGA and is a Genesis title. So I would say that Ghostbusters is more of a SEGA game than, say, Aliens: Colonial Marines. It all depends on how hands on SEGA themselves are, and in the case of Aliens: CM I feel they were very hands off.


I disagree with those who brush off a game like Viking: Battle for Asgard as not being a SEGA game because the developer was acquired and the team doesn't have some magical SEGA DNA. They're now SEGA staff and are just as much an internal team as Sonic Team or AM2. So an original IP from them within SEGA is just as much a first party title as Sonic or Virtua Fighter.

[ROJM]

I'm glad you pointed out the Sega license games because there is a history with them in that regard. We just have to look at the various Sega IP that was published on other systems like ALTERED BEAST for NES or the games released on PC Engine. Also the many LCD games that Tiger released using Sega IP. BAYONETTA 2 is no different to those games because while Sega isn't actively involved this game simply wouldn't happen without them. The only time i remember someone else licensing Sega IP to create new games on them was with THQ and their Sega Gameboy Advance titles.

[Barry the Nomad]

Ha! Funny to think that Bayonetta 2 and Tiger LCD games could be classed the same. Don't tell Kamiya that our he'll block all of us!

[ROJM]

Ha! Funny to think that Bayonetta 2 and Tiger LCD games could be classed the same. Don't tell Kamiya that our he'll block all of us!

Seriously though that's why i get frustrated with Sega at times. Sega use to have the best western games made. Now they act like its rocket science to make a western game let alone an original one. Sega as a company in this modern era of franchises and branding has the most unique franchises under their wing. But they won't do anything with them.
As i said numerous times before, the closest thing we had to Sega as we use to know them was during 20-10 when they were releasing games in every description that you listed just like they did back in the old days. I still think Sega is unbeatable if they released strong japan content with strong western content on these shores. But of course that won't happen anytime soon.

[Barry the Nomad]

2010 really was a great year. Bayonetta, All-Stars Racing, Sonic Colors, Yakuza 3, Chu Chu Rocket iOS, After Burner Climax, Aliens vs. Predator, Vanquish, Sonic 4 (okay, not a great game, but still...)

Very true, we had great first party, second party, imports, and mobile titles. 2014 by comparison has been very weak. I'm struggling to think of what released over the past 6 months in the West... Miku Project F? That's all that I can think of.

[Nirmugen]

I think this is a "time of transition" practically because of a more demanding enviroment where developing a game is more difficult in many ways.

Even with the benefits of a dedicated fanbase that can spread the word, it's not easy to sell ,"as expected", AA or mid-tier specific demografic titles like many companies have tried. Worst when it's a franchise with games every year (Yakuza, Phantasy Star for example)

Is true that games like Dark Souls, Persona games or even Bayonetta when people start to know the game itself-far apart from the release day-  were doing well and also well receive by many, but that doesn't tell much for other games like Vanquish or the rest of Platinum games that were published.

Really, PG is not a "best-seller/best franchise from a company-publisher game developer", it's a "console/system seller exclusive game developer". Not games, only system seller.

Sega already knew that and this is the reason why they terminate their contract and didn't continuing publishing and funded PG's projects even with all the recognision. Sega is a third-party not a first party also XD.

That's also the reason why now PG is working with Microsoft.  Their game, Scalebound, it's not gonna sell like all MS exclusive franchises. It's going to be a game for an especific fanbase, a game with recognision and also a game that elevate the catalog of console. That's all.

NOTE: I think HM it's a good example for what can Sega West do in the future with exclusive only in Japan niche titles like Shining series and all stuff.
For "the greatest franchise in Japan" category,  i think they need to work more harder for "how they can work and what they can do now" things. It's not easy and I understand the problems and all. Also, you know that Sega Jp made a statement that say that PSO2 may stay strong and supported for 10  years, like what they wnat with the original. Kinda of an interesting news...

[Team Andromeda]

...Its all sammy's fault.....

As for the games, well how do you class Street Fighter Champion Edition and Final Fight CD. Most people at the time thought Capcom did a sterling job on those conversions when in reality it was Sega that reprogrammed the game and made them top notch conversions. In the case of FFCD they added a few bonuses. Now of course it isn't a Sega title but Sega did work on those games that ended up with Capcom getting the plaudits which they didn't really deserve.

Capcom did SF II on the MD right down the the poor audio samples . Strider and the likes of Final Fight I give credit to SEGA for a stunning ports , but they're still Cacpom games. No different from Sumo stunning ports of Outrun II and 2006, but they're still AM#2 developed games in the end .

And yes Sammy is fast but killing the old SEGA these days 

[ROJM]

2010 really was a great year. Bayonetta, All-Stars Racing, Sonic Colors, Yakuza 3, Chu Chu Rocket iOS, After Burner Climax, Aliens vs. Predator, Vanquish, Sonic 4 (okay, not a great game, but still...)

Very true, we had great first party, second party, imports, and mobile titles. 2014 by comparison has been very weak. I'm struggling to think of what released over the past 6 months in the West... Miku Project F? That's all that I can think of.

Actually i meant to say 2008 - 2010. Typo strikes again..
These days i've compare whats happening now to what kinda happen in the early to mid noughties where some of their best titles were only available in Japan while we were getting solid PC games and terrible western game content for consoles and more sonic games. The same seem to be happening again except that most of the japanese only games are being produced by Sega right now.

[ROJM]

I think this is a "time of transition" practically because of a more demanding enviroment where developing a game is more difficult in many ways.

Even with the benefits of a dedicated fanbase that can spread the word, it's not easy to sell ,"as expected", AA or mid-tier specific demografic titles like many companies have tried. Worst when it's a franchise with games every year (Yakuza, Phantasy Star for example)

Is true that games like Dark Souls, Persona games or even Bayonetta when people start to know the game itself-far apart from the release day-  were doing well and also well receive by many, but that doesn't tell much for other games like Vanquish or the rest of Platinum games that were published.

Really, PG is not a "best-seller/best franchise from a company-publisher game developer", it's a "console/system seller exclusive game developer". Not games, only system seller.

Sega already knew that and this is the reason why they terminate their contract and didn't continuing publishing and funded PG's projects even with all the recognision. Sega is a third-party not a first party also XD.

That's also the reason why now PG is working with Microsoft.  Their game, Scalebound, it's not gonna sell like all MS exclusive franchises. It's going to be a game for an especific fanbase, a game with recognision and also a game that elevate the catalog of console. That's all.

NOTE: I think HM it's a good example for what can Sega West do in the future with exclusive only in Japan niche titles like Shining series and all stuff.
For "the greatest franchise in Japan" category,  i think they need to work more harder for "how they can work and what they can do now" things. It's not easy and I understand the problems and all. Also, you know that Sega Jp made a statement that say that PSO2 may stay strong and supported for 10  years, like what they wnat with the original. Kinda of an interesting news...

What are you talking about? BAYONETTA was a success. The other games were moderate to flops. That's the reason Sega didn't offer Platinum the same type of deal as before. Also it was down to the fact that Segasammy decided to cut game budgets or cancel them completely across the board. It wasn't just PG that got cut but a whole lot of games from various studios in Japan and the west. In fact BAYONETTA was the only game from that period to get a sequel if not a game. Everything else didn't make it.  And there was some really good idea for games that i feel could have been awesome.