Sonic 25th Anniversary - Offical Topic.

[Tad]

"Fans" don't know what they want. If the next Sonic game is more platforming and less/no boost, I guarantee fans will scream they want boost back.

The idea in adventure was solid enough. A 3D platforming experience that gives a deeper narrative game to the Sonic universe. However, times have changed and 3D platforming in that style is no longer that popular. Back in the 90s, you could trip over the amount flying around. But in the 00s, they started to wear thin and now we have...well, Mario. That's about it. Even Rare Software have fallen victim to this. Other devs have mashed genres together to make something different, but that's about it.

SEGA clinged into that style for a while and then started experimenting in the fairy tales Wii games. We then got Unleashed and hit some success. Colours and Generations quickly followed and then we saw a change again in SLW. SLW features free running into the Sonic gameplay...

[segafan1984]

Yep. Either that or 2D gameplay, Adventure gameplay, etc.

[George]

Yeah, I think they need to take a 'Generational approach' to the franchise. As in, if you will be making this a yearly/biyearly thing, have a plan. Mario does. Here is how they approach this: Mario 3D World, New Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Maker, etc.

While I do think that Mario franchise has sorta also peaked after Galaxy 2, thats because the team hasn't made a 'main franchise title' in that long, but I don't feel like the games they did between now and Galaxy 2 where all trash. I feel like their all each their own tiny experiences and I don't have that 'Well, that wasn't as good as Galaxy 2' taste in my mouth due to the game NOT trying to be Galaxy 2.

That's the thing with Sonic, the side games are trying to be a full game and turn out not to be of high quality. Why are you funding 20+ million for Boom games that are terrible? Get a fraction of that money and get Sumo to do another Sonic & SEGA Racing title. Am I crazy here?

Have a 5 year plan, a head of time, with 2 year + development cycles on each game that spans different genres. SEGA already hit the kart market and did well, I see no reason to stop that.

I think the issue has been, with Sonic, the lack of supervision. It feels like SEGA just expects games done when they say it and wouldn't delay them in the past. Look at Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, that shit needed like another year in development. Would it have been amazing? Nah, but it would have been easier to digest and the people that ate up Sonic Adventure 2 would have loved it.

[Tad]

I have to agree with that approach. If you look at the Mario titles, the big titles only consist of the older games, Mario64, Sunshine, Galaxy 1,2 and SM3DW. The rest are all away from that and are smaller titles.

With Sonic though, it's less clear what's part of the main series and what isn't due to the amount of different styles between games.

If I could, I'd have the main Sonic games as just this:

Sonic 1-3
Sonic Colours
Sonic Generations

[Tad]

Huh, just found this on YouTube and I think it does a fairly good job at explaining Sonic games: https://youtu.be/7mm5sxU4PKo

[Pao]

Thoughts on this formula? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr52--OpoyA

It's a fan game, and there's a demo out there. I tried it, and aside from imprecise movement and the (sometimes) awkward camera angles, it felt fun to play.  I had more fun with this than Lost World (Which I played this year on PC).   It looks Mario-esque in pacing and level design, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.  More 3D platforming is what's missing from the 3D Sonic games since SA2. 

It could use a little more speed, though.

I seriously can't remember the last time Sonic felt good to move around with in 3D... Just running in Generations/Unleashed has me bumping into walls, and it's some times torture to try and jump above a ledge in Lost World.

Above all else, I think they should nail the controls and movements in the next 3D Sonic game.

[Aki-at]

I thought Sonic Adventure Sonic was the perfect speed, I need to go play that game again but I felt his standard speed and movement was for the most part good and it shows on stages like Lost World. Problem is from that point on Sonic Team wanted to make him even faster which I felt took away from the platforming essence of the series (But I will admit there are plenty of fans of the boost formula)

Anyway I love Chisado's stuff but I don't feel this is what I want for the next Sonic game, the level design for one is not for me. Too flat and need more slopes, I dislike the general camera angle and finally hate how much "gap" there is in the world.

[Happy Cat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he leave after Sonic 06?

Nah, he's still here. He's even credited with helping with the level design in Sonic 2006

Sonic is still hugely popular, but Sonic games of the last several years have been less well received than those from, say, 15 years ago. Why do you think that is?

Iizuka: So originally it was more or less the same team working on all the different Sonic titles, but after a few years, for various reasons, we started to delegate Sonic games to different groups of people.

And everyone in the office has their own idea of what Sonic should be, so we started to see slightly varied, slightly different directions of Sonic games.

I was conscious of this, so I'm now back with full responsibility of all things Sonic. I have control over the direction of not just Sonic Generations, but all the Sonic titles that we will develop in the future.

So I have more control, and hopefully this will provide better appearances for future titles.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:psHUpZOhB9sJ:www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/3DS/Sonic%2BGenerations/news.asp%3Fc%3D32963+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Team Andromeda]

Thats one way to look at it. Another would be that this man has no idea what hes doing and has been slowly murdering the franchise for years

I think he's the man that made the best SONIC with Sonic Adv, the man that gave us NiGHTS. He's a great talent and Sonic Team are one of the best Teams inside SEGA Japan and at least have some decent tech pipe lines . I'll expect the next Sonic to be amazing and look stunning  myself.

[Tad]

Thoughts on this formula? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr52--OpoyA

It's a fan game, and there's a demo out there. I tried it, and aside from imprecise movement and the (sometimes) awkward camera angles, it felt fun to play.  I had more fun with this than Lost World (Which I played this year on PC).   It looks Mario-esque in pacing and level design, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.  More 3D platforming is what's missing from the 3D Sonic games since SA2. 

It could use a little more speed, though.

I seriously can't remember the last time Sonic felt good to move around with in 3D... Just running in Generations/Unleashed has me bumping into walls, and it's some times torture to try and jump above a ledge in Lost World.

Above all else, I think they should nail the controls and movements in the next 3D Sonic game.

That's certainly not a bad effort from a fan and he deserves credit for it. However, I don't think that's the type of game Sonic should look at being. It feels a bit like the isometric Sonic 3D in design.

I think, for me anyway, Generations' 3D design was great. Multiple paths, hidden paths, collectables etc. I'd lose the almost constant boost however and have speed built up through momentum or a short boost like similar to what the spin dash/peel out did.

As said above, when trying to take it slow, Sonic seems to almost fight you in Generations as the controls aren't designed for slow and steady. This is a bit of an issue. When moving slow, you want Sonic to be precise, but at speed, you need Sonic to be less demanding due to everything moving too fast around you. So, here's how I'd tackle it.

I'd program Sonic to control in two different ways. When going slow, Sonic's controls should be precise like the adventure series, but once you start moving and building speed, a function within' the characters programming checks to see how fast he's going. If he's hit his top speed (or close to), the controls become like Generations. Once his speeds decreases to a point, the controls revert to adventure and become more percise.

[Radrappy]

I actually, really quite like that video!  Thanks for sharing. 

I think the fixed isometric camera angle and slower run speed could do wonders for this series.  I've heard others suggest the super mario 3d world route would be the way to go and didn't really pay them any heed but after seeing this I think it could really work.  The amazing thing is that with this camera you can actually SEE OBSTACLES LONG BEFORE YOU HIT THEM.  That's something that a game like Generations struggled severely with.  The camera is SO close to the player and the movement speed is SO fast that you are almost guaranteed to hit shit on your first play through. 

I think people need to disregard this whole "cinematic" approach to game design when it comes to Sonic.  It's not about having cool speed runs it's about have a working functional game that doesn't make you want to through the controller out the window.   

[Trippled]

Well in that sense the 2D games also have a problem with not seeing objects ahead of time.

If it isn't cinematic, it doesnt feel as fast, Id say.

[Radrappy]

Well in that sense the 2D games also have a problem with not seeing objects ahead of time.

If it isn't cinematic, it doesnt feel as fast, Id say.

The 2d games give you as much time as this proof of concept video does.  Functionally, a 2d game lays everything out in front of you as it comes towards you on the screen and you can time your jumps/movements accordingly.  In 3d space this is much more challenging, doubly so if the camera functions like it does in gens/unleashed at the speed you are going at.  It's compounded further by the boost and the blur effect that fills the screen.


All I want is a game that gives you fair warning when shit is heading your way.  I suppose what's "fair" is certainly up for debate. 

[FlareHabanero]

An anniversary should be a time for celebration, but all I see is fear and desperation for Sonic's future. I can't be the only person that get's that impression. I know several people that are clinging onto Sonic's 25th anniversary in hopes that Sonic can make a comeback after how rocky things got in recent years.

[Trippled]

The 2d games give you as much time as this proof of concept video does.  Functionally, a 2d game lays everything out in front of you as it comes towards you on the screen and you can time your jumps/movements accordingly.  In 3d space this is much more challenging, doubly so if the camera functions like it does in gens/unleashed at the speed you are going at.  It's compounded further by the boost and the blur effect that fills the screen.
 

Still feel it pretty easy to bump into stuff in the 2d games without memorization.